Is ISIS Islamic? Christian Muslim Debate

This audio is brought to you by Muslim Central. please consider donating to help cover our running costs and future projects by visiting www dot Muslim central.com forward slash donate. Hello and welcome along to the program. I'm Justin briley, your host for the next hour and a half for unbelievable. It's the weekly show that brings together Christians and non Christians for dialogue and debate as part of faith explored here on premier Christian radio straight after today's show, you can hit the profile that's between four and five today Maria Rodriguez speaks to singer Helen Shapiro on her journey of faith, that'll be an interesting one. But today's program on unbelievable,

not the one that was sheduled to air today. In light of the recent events in Paris a week ago, we're talking about the Islamic State, I'll be introducing my guests and the topic in a moment's time. Towards the end of today's program, you'll hear some of the feedback to recent shows. And of course, you can add your comments about today's show as well. If you'd like to get in touch, that's [email protected] to email. I'll give more ways to get in touch with the show a little later on. And if you want to listen back to today's program, or indeed the vast back catalogue of archived shows, and on the podcast and so on, and simply go to the show website that's premier

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welcome along to today's program and on the show today we're asking is Islamic State Islamic. The recent terror attacks in Paris of course have dominated our new screens in the past week or so 129 innocent people losing their lives on Friday the 13th of November when terrorists launched attacks in the capital of France. A man hunt has since uncovered further plotters resulting in a shootout in a Paris suburb, but what of the so called Islamic State ISIS or Daesh, as they're called in France, the bloodthirsty group behind the attacks well since the summer of 2014, they've led a merciless campaign to take control of towns and cities in Iraq and Syria and currently actually control an

area of land larger than the UK. They claim to establish an Islamic caliphate as part of Allah's plan to bring about Judgment Day. We heard story after gruesome story of the fate of Christians and Muslims whom they consider to be apostates, beheaded, crucified, mutilated, or sold into slavery yet 1000s of radicalized Muslims from the west have joined to fight in the Middle East. And so what is exerting this pull on these young men and women? What is the theology of ISIS that leads them to rape, pillage and murder? Are they simply an extremist Doomsday cult? Or do they in any way represent the teachings of the Quran and Islam? Those are the kinds of questions we're going to be

tackling On today's program. And my guests are Jeremiah J. Johnson and Craig Evans. They're authors of Jesus, and the jihad is confronting the rage of ISIS and the theology driving the ideology. And they believe that Like it or not, the wicked act of Islamic State are justified from the pages of the Quran. They also lift the lid on the role that Jesus will play in Islamic theology in a final Armageddon style showdown at Derby con in Syria. Jeremy Johnson is president of the Christian thinkers society based at Houston Baptist University, and Dr. Craig Evans is a noted New Testament scholar based out in Canada. Well, two Muslim guests join me as well for today's show quite a

roundtable discussion we're having on unbelievable today on the line is in yet bunglawala of Muslims. For UK it's an organization set up to celebrate the UK democratic traditions and promote active Muslim engagement in society. And joining me in studio is Adnan Rashid. He's a speaker for IRA the Islamic education and research Academy and the hidden Institute. And so add man and any app will be responding to Jeremiah. And Craig's views in their book Jesus, and the jihad is, as we host this discussion, asking, is Islamic State, Islamic Well, welcome along to the program, everyone, it's great to have you here in studio Adnan, and everyone else, joining me in various ways by phone

or across the pond and so on. And maybe let's start, first of all with you, Jeremiah, as one of the authors of this new book, and we're all shocked, obviously, by the events in Paris. But judging by this book, Jeremiah, you're perhaps not surprised to see Islamic State perpetrating these kinds of atrocities on on Western soil? That's a great question. First, Justin, thanks for having us all in the program. And I certainly hope that I speak for everyone, all five of us, when I just say how heartbreaking it is what happened last week, and we are certainly praying for the victims and their families for what kind of response we should have. But no, I'm not surprised at all, that this has

occurred. I'm not surprised what happened with metrojet recently in the Sinai, the Islamic State, their theology, it's rooted in a deeply flawed understanding of God and the human condition. And not only that many Christians don't know how to respond. So I'm, I'm interested in conversation today. We're gonna come to you a little bit for a bit more on the book. Coming to you quickly, though, Craig, you're

Your specialization is in New Testament studies, what made you want to write a book dealing with Islam and ISIS specifically? Well, I have for years been very interested in how Jesus is interpreted in the Quran. And early Islamic tradition. Jesus, of course, is highly valued and appreciated, even defended against various insults and criticisms from antiquity. Many Christians do not know that that Jesus hat plays a prominent place in not only in the crown, but in eschatological beliefs that I'm sure we will touch upon in today's program. And so that's one of the reasons I'm very interested in this entire subject. And one of the reasons why along with Jeremiah Johnson, I wrote this book.

Now, of course, I do disagree with Islam's assessment of who Jesus is and was and what he achieved. And so they're very much is a, I think, a very energetic and engaging dialogue to be had. Indeed, well, thank you for joining us for the dialogue today. And also time to introduce any app bunglawala. And yet, thanks for being with us on the program today. I'd like him to join us, Justin, thank you. Any apps and just your reactions to what happened in Paris, if you would?

It was, it was terrible.

Those are terrible events that we witnessed in Paris last week, Justin? Sadly, it's becoming increasingly common to hear about these kinds of events where we're seeing

groups of young men just wanting the slaughtering. Here in Europe, we saw it earlier, last month in Turkey as well, I believe I think in Ankara, over 200 people were killed by or thought to be ISIS agents there as well. And then just a few days before Paris, we saw the killings in Lebanon as well, the bombings in Lebanon, also attributed to ISIS. So this group appears to be intent on causing mayhem. Right, right, right across the region. And you know, is understandable that everyone's thoughts are focused on how to stop this and how to put an end to their murderous intent. And then finally, just introducing you, and you've often come on to debate doctrine and the role of Islam and

so on. What's your response to what we saw, though, coming from Islamic State on Friday? Oh, he was absolutely appalling. What we witnessed this Friday was, was unimaginable,

as far as the scale is concerned, because we have heard that this was the biggest catastrophe since the Second World War in France, as one French are concerned. Having said that, you know, this catastrophe, to use the right word for this particular incident, has been reported different differently to other catastrophes that have recently taken place. In the last three years, we've had over 300,000 people killed in Syria, we've had nearly 2000 people killed in Israel Gaza War, which took place not very long ago. And then we have a bombing taking place in Nigeria, we have so many Mexican drug cartels, killing 1000s of people in Mexico, these atrocities are not highlighted as

as much as they are this particular, you know,

the iconic nature of the city of Paris and everything else. And obviously, the scale of the fatality occurring, in a sense on the doorstep of these Western democratic countries. And in that sense, obviously, perhaps understandable why so much focus is put there, but as, as in the outset, we mustn't forget a route, other places where we've seen all humans are equal. Absolutely, yeah, we should look at them. Yeah. Great to have everyone on the program today. And it's a controversial topic, though, because I know there's going to be a strong disagreement between the two parties that we have here, as it were, Jeremiah, and Craig, authors of this book, Jesus in the jihad is say that,

like it or not, the acts of Islamic State are justified from the pages of the Quran. So let's start with you, Jeremiah, and Craig Jeremiah, perhaps first. What why, what what's your sort of central thesis in this book? Why do you believe Islamic State does at some level represent a valid interpretation of the Quran and Islamic teaching? Will in Jesus and Jihad ease we explain why the movement is so dangerous and I think what many in the West are confused by is they don't realize how theologically diff driven the Islamic State is. And of course, the church has been quiet for years not wanting to offend Muslims in general, but mostly I think, because Christians don't understand

Islam well enough to have an intelligent conversation. You know, if you want to see a case study of exactly how Muhammad is

Islam to be implemented. Look at the Islamic State. And Craig and I are not the only people saying this even certain Muslims former Muslims are saying this rather than being an aneurysm comic distortion of the Quran the hadith of course, the Islamic trilogy is Muhammad's words are so important. They gave it a special name the Suna, which includes the Syrah and the Hadeeth. Of course, the the Quran is only 14% of the Islamic Bible, if you will. But when you read these holy texts, and again, the Islamic State has a rational basis. And so we need to authenticate everyone's comments about Islam by looking into the holy text. Is the Islamic State Islamic will Craig and I

think so? Absolutely. It is it's quintessentially Quranic centric. So again, if you want to see Islam in action, you should read the Quran. Of course, you know, Muslims believe the Quran is perfect. They believe it's complete universal, eternal, they don't believe it contains errors that it is the exact words of Allah. And I want to say this, I mean, Islam is not about opinion, it has a solid, rational, foundational basis, and it's texts. And an honest and close reading of Islamic holy texts reveals, in my opinion that Mohammed would not only join the Islamic State, he would lead it. And so when Jesus and jihad is our thesis is that, you know, we can't effectively oppose the Islamic

State without an adequate consideration of their theology, which completely drives their ideology. And I think a lot of the discussion publication even media attention suffers from a woefully inadequate understanding with the world's second largest religion, of course, the West is confused. Our own president here in the North America said that, you know, Al Qaeda, there was a JV team is compared with al Qaeda. He even referred to ISIS as an Islamic that it is neither Islamic nor state. Of course, we take issue with that, you know, current opinions, I think, suffer also from this politically correct notion that focus on the group's ideology while ignoring its theology. So we

assess that in Jesus and jihad. And what you say is that what they intent upon is driving the world, if you like, towards what they believe is this kind of Judgment Day doomsday scenario, which will culminate in a great battle.

And, and for them, the way to do that is essentially in this campaign of of slaughter and conquer, essentially, because they really believe that what they're doing is bringing about the end time in that sense.

Absolutely. I mean, when you look at the words of Muhammad, and when you as again, they're in the Syrah and the Hadeeth, we see that 80% of the Syrah 80%. And I want to make sure our listeners understand that Mohammed's biography, record his struggle with the kefir. And what is kefir? It is the word that we'd sometimes translate in English as non believer. Well, it's not that way at all. In the Quran, a Kaffir is somebody who can be mocked Qur'an at 334, they can be beheaded 47, four, they can be plotted against at 615 that can be terrorized a 12. Muslim is not to be a friend of the Kaffir. And I want to make this very clear. In the Islamic holy text, God does not love everyone,

Allah only loves Muslims, you are either part of the house of Islam, or you are part of the house of war. And I think it's really dangerous because we look at certain aspects of the Quran that discuss not showing compassion on the kefir or the non believers. And I really think that's the end of civilization as we know it. When we're told not to show compassion. Well, let's bring in any apps at this point, and then we'll get a comment from Adnan as well. Any at hearing what what Jeremiah had to say that he said, If Mohammed were with us today, he would not only join Islamic State, he would be leading it. What do you say to that? Well, those are incredibly incendiary statements. What

Jeremiah is, in fact saying is that ISIS represent the correct or the most honest and truthful interpretation of Islam. If that is the case, that means that all the other Muslims there that 1.6 billion Muslims that exist in the world are following an incorrect interpretation of Islam. I mean, this, his his words, must be music to the ears of ISIS.

But other normal, sane Muslims, they just sound, you know, utterly, utterly outrageous. I mean, if let's compare this I mean, he, he makes the usual

Christian extremist

analogy with certain verses of the Quran taking them as this verse encourages beheading this verse, encourages having no friendship, etc. We know amongst Christians, you have different groups, you have different sects. You have people come knocking on my door almost every weekend here where I live, I have Jehovah's Witnesses knocking on my door. You know, Jehovah's Witnesses, I'm sure they exist the United States as well. They famously they don't believe in having blood transfusions and when I asked them why they don't

They say, well, it's in the Bible, you know, not to take blood. And I said, Well, what other Christians are? Well, those Christians are mistaken. So is it the kind of Java's witnesses are right and all the other Christians? Okay, so

in a in a large group of 1.6 billion Muslims, some people are going to have some extremist beliefs and accidentally commit extremist action amongst the Christian Christians and other large groups. Let me ask you, then Craig, is that fair analogy to say, well, Christians have their differences as well. So we have to see Islamic State in that way? Well, there's a little bit of truth in that, of course, there are different groups that

do different things or hold different views. The problem though, is and I agree with what Jeremiah said, is that Jesus teaches, for example, according to the Gospels, according to Christian tradition, love your neighbors, pray for your enemies, turn the other cheek, and on it goes in the Christian church reflects that there may be aberrant people, there may be people who reject some of that are interpreted differently. But at the very heart and core, the very essence of the Christian faith is a redemptive program. It is not to kill and destroy, and it's it. And we don't find that at the heart and center of the Islamic tradition are at the heart and center of the Qur'an. And that's

the problem. Now I rejoice and what ner has said that the vast majority of Muslims do not agree with ISIS, that is a good thing. And so and that has to be encouraged. Most Muslims are peace loving and moderate and would not support ISIS. And we all breathe a sigh of relief. The problem though, is as at the in the Quran, there are numerous passages that can be taken and interpreted in a way that's that fosters and encourages this kind of extremism. And so the ISIS followers view most Muslims as not really being true to their own faith and beliefs as being wishy washy and they need to get on well as as we know, ISIS have have very far have have slaughtered many more Muslims than they have

Christians in that sense.

Right, I believe to be apostates in some form or another. And then, well, what's your response to this though? Craig's point is okay. Christianity has its variants, obviously, but foundational to it, is this obvious message of love, peace, reconciliation, redemption and so on, that you don't find in the Quran, it's it's easier, I suppose, in that sense to interpret Quran in the ways that groups like ISIS do interpret it. What I see here is similarity in behavior between ISIS and what these gentlemen are doing, they are basically picking verses from the Quran and adulterating them at will. ISIS takes less than the Quran and misquotes them, and adulterate them, or changes the meaning

and somehow apply these meanings or their understanding of the Quran to the situations in war. Quran is a book which which has which has ethics in it, which has morals in it, which has instructions to worship God, which has law in it and rules of engagement with the enemy. So the verses quoted by the gentlemen are basically dealing with the situations of war, okay. And in war, you fight, you don't pick on each other's toes. Right? So let me quickly give you an example just for you to comment on here. For instance, one that Jeremiah and Craig cite, when they say Islamic State is Islamic, they quote from Surah 533. The punishment of those who waged war against Allah and His messenger and

strive with might and main for mischief through the land is execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from the opposite side, or exile from the land. That is their disgrace in this world. And a heavy punishment is theirs in this is and they say, Well, this is exactly reflected in the things that I know this is what this verse deals with is the rule is the issue of herrada in Arabic, which is

highway robbery. So when you cause destruction in the land, you're robbing people at gunpoint or at the tip of sword. So this is a verse that deals with that situation when it's a punishing a punishment. But no, it's a verse that deals with the Criminal Code of Islam. Okay, so it is not a general verse that you can go and apply on non Muslims. Very quickly, you want to come back to some of the issues.

The first gentleman What's his name? Jeremiah, Jeremiah raised, Jeremiah quoted from the prophets biography that is 60 80% about war. That's not true. That's simply not true. The most authentic source of prophets biographies, the Buhari Sahil Bukhari, which is Kitab al jihad. The book concerning war is a very small portion of that book in fact, 90

percent of that book is dealing with ethics, morality, things to do with the rights of orphans, the rights rights of widows, the right of the rights of, you know, society at large, for example, that are reports like Malaya from law, your home, Solomon law, your home law, you're the one who does not show mercy will not be shown mercy. Another report in Buhari for example, in the biography of the Prophet is, in our cafeteria team for the Janaka haka chain, which is in Arabic, I will translate right now that I am the one who, who supports an orphan will be in paradise like these two fingers this close. Anyone who struggles to support a widow is is like the one who struggles in the part of

God. So these are some of the teachings which are deliberately ignored by ISIS and people like Jeremiah, I don't know Jeremiah much I can only judge him by his book. I can't when I read the book, it is very selective and his choice of literary and very narrow, I do have to come back later in the conversation to you Adnan to ask whether, in general, you agree with the principle of the establishment of an Islamic caliphate, which I think is another interesting point, but we'll come back to that because I should allow Jeremiah a chance to respond now both to what you and an inactive had to say in response to this. You're cherry picking. He says, Jeremiah, what do you say

to that? He just quoted the Bukhari Hadeeth, Islams most dependable studies. And again, I'm going back to what the text actually says. And we'd point this out in our book Jesus and Jihad ease I encourage our audience to go to Jesus and the johnnies.com right now and buy the book. There are over 200 references and Bukhari attributed to Muhammad related to Jihad over 200. Of course, in the Quran, again, the Quran only makes up 14% of the Islamic triad, the Quran over 100 verses in the Quran, enjoining Muslims to fight, kill, torture, rape, pillage and conquer In the name of Allah against the kefir. And again, an honest close reading of the Quran reveals 64% of its content is

driven by the question of what to do with the non Muslim world, kefir and all of its grammatical forms over 400 times in the Quran and Justin Craig and I did our homework because we knew we would have conversations like this, I am merely quoting what the Quran and the Islamic sources said the Quran is not about how to be a good Muslim, it is about how to dominate the world. And in that sense, you believe Islamic state as simply carrying out what this manual effectively was created for in that sense. Absolutely. I agree with Iran Hirsi Ali, a former Muslim now a atheist who said, if you want to see Islam in action, look at the Islamic State. It is hell on earth. And I'm quoting her

well. How about a quick response from India? And then we'll come to you and then let's allow any app to come in here. Yeah, you know, many years back, I was laid up in hospital guys, with having my appendix operation. And you've probably heard of the Gideon games are very well known here in the UK for for leaving New Testaments beside hospital beds, I don't know if it still happens. But in those days when I was in hospital, it is New Testament. So I used my time in hospital to actually read the Gospels. And I loved the Gospels. You know, to this day, I have a very fond memory of rereading the four Gospels. However, it is possible to do exactly what Jeremiah just did, and pick out verses of

the New Testament and gospels, actual sayings of Christ, to show Jesus not as a man of peace, but as a warmonger. I mean, there's a verse in Matthew, chapter 10, verse 34, where he says he has, I've not come to send peace, but the sword. Now, if you just take that verse in isolation, you will see Jesus as saying that he's not come, come to this earth, to spread peace and love between people. He's come here to create mayhem. Now, I could have done that I could have done exactly what Jeremiah just did, then and Craig was doing, but I don't, because it's, it's so foolish to take bits of Scripture, and try and paint a character or ridicule the whole of the rest of the Scripture with it.

You mentioned Jeremiah that there are 200 Hadith or sayings of the prophet in Buhari, which talk about jihad. Those those are 200 how many sayings are that listed in Buhari I think it's over 10,000 things in there. So it just focus on

Hadees which relate to jihad, and jihad is a concept regarding safeguarding your society, expanding the domain of Islam or the land where Islam

is ruling. This was a situation where there were a tiny little state surrounded by pagan

Well, let's,

let's quickly allow Jeremiah a response. I suppose Jeremiah, my question is, and you feel free to phrase it yourself in a sense, but but it is the problem for you that the fact that Islamic State does exist and other terrorist groups spring out of Islam suggestion that they do they do obviously take these verses in a particular way that the Christian Bible doesn't seem a suspect susceptible to in that sense. Absolutely. And Craig, I want you to speak to Matthew 10. For the benefit of our audience. How should Christians respond when Muslims cherry pick these verses out of the Gospels about Jesus, especially as it relates to the Namibian gospel? Great, john?

Well, sure, of course, there are a handful of verses Matthew 1034, is one of them where Jesus in context, it's obvious, he's speaking metaphorically, he uses hyperbole. He In fact, in Mark nine says, it's better to gouge out an eye, if it causes you to sin than to go to hell with both eyes. And it's obvious in context what it is, but even then we only have a few verses like that we don't have dozens, even hundreds in the Gospels. And so what Jesus's message is, is very clear. And that's why it's very rare that someone cherry picks Jesus and comes up with a very false understanding of him. But I do support what Jeremiah is saying. In the Quran, it's different there's and and in the

Hadith, and so forth, you've got a lot more material. Another way of saying as a tree is known by its fruit, just look at the world today. Where is all the violence taking place? The vast majority of wars and oppression and people fleeing and refugees. It's people fleeing from Islamic dominated governments and societies fleeing were to the west, which has a long legacy of Christian influence. And then Jeremiah, sorry, Craig doesn't doesn't this legacy doesn't save you. If you study the history of Europe of the Christian West carefully, you will see mass burnings of witches, mass burnings of heretics, you will see crusades. ISIS is as Islamic as the Crusaders were Christian.

Okay. ISIS is as Islamic as the KKK were Christian. ISIS is as Islamic as the Mexican drug cartels are Christian. They were across the US. Some of them actually go to churches. You know, Pablo Escobar, one of the biggest drug barons in Colombia, who was killed in the 1990s was a very charitable Christian. He was doing charity from his drug money. Again, he was trying to quote Bible for his actions. Now, do we claim that Christianity is responsible for that? No, of course not. We don't look at things like that. You know, we look at things in an academic way.

Very quickly, I want to come back to I do apologize. But this is very important because Craig and Jeremiah have raised few issues. Hershey, why do we take iron Hirsi Ali's opinion over the Mufti of Saudi Arabia or the other or the scholars of Indonesia or the scholars of Pakistan, the entire Muslim world, and the scholarship has condemned what ISIS it's a death cult. This This group is going out killing innocent people. What about the teachings of the Prophet?

Jeremiah talked about bakary 200 reports. As an item already pointed out, there are 1000s of reports are the 7000 reports in Buhari close to 10,000. Okay, why do you ignore all the rest? Let me let me finish my point very quickly, please. In the same book, we find instructions that when in war, do not kill men. Men who are not non combatants Do not kill children do not kill women. Do not cut trees do not destroy

fields, where you find harvest do not even kill monks Christian amongst all monasteries, you go to W Hollins and what Imam Malik all the reports are their same prophet is teaching these rules. So when do you go to war? Koran is very clear. It's all defensive. When you are attacked, for example, chapter two verse 90 190 292. Is that when you are attacked, defend yourself and do not go to extremes while are taught to do what is extreme profit. Explain what is true. So here what Jeremiah and Craig is doing his absolutely he mentioned pillage, rape, robbery, please, please be just do justice to our text. And we're gonna have to go to a quick break. And what we'll do is we'll come

back and we'll see what Craig and and Jeremiah have to say in response. And of course, any actor joins us by phone as well. We're asking today on unbelievable is the Islamic State Islamic Of course, this is in

response to the recent terror attacks in Paris which have dominated our new screens. So do come back again in a short moments time as we continue this debate.

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you're listening to unbelievable on premier Christian radio. Welcome back to the second part of today's program. I'm Justin briley, your host for unbelievable. It's the show that gets Christians and non Christians talking. And today we're Of course doing a special show is the Islamic State Islamic, we're asking Now, if you're waiting for news about what happened to the show that would have happened. This week, we were due to have oz Guinness, and another guest for a discussion. Well, we've put that on the back burner for another time, because we felt it was right to respond to the recent attacks in Paris, which have dominated our new screens for the past week. What do we make,

though, of Islamic State? Well, Jeremiah J. Johnson and Craig Evans join me they're authors of Jesus and that jihad is confronting the rage of ISIS and the theology driving the ideology. I'll make sure there are links by the way to all my guests, the book, and so on from the unbelievable web page. So if you're interested in finding out more about anything you've heard on the show, that's the place to go premier Christian radio.com slash unbelievable. Also, joining me in studio is Adnan Rashid, from the Islamic education and research Academy and also in the app bunglawala by phone. So lots of guests, and in the apps from muslims for UK and we'll make sure to try and give everyone as much

time as we can. During the discussion. Jeremiah in that last section there, Adnan saying, You're misrepresenting Islam, I won't judge you by the KKK, or the Crusades or whatever, don't judge us by Islamic State and the way they interpret the Quran, the response to that, but also, there's a very interesting material in the book as well about the role Jesus plays in the the theology of Islamic State, many people might think, Jesus, that's the last thing surely Islamic state would be interested in talking about, but in fact, they do believe Jesus plays a role in their plans. So firstly, maybe responding to to add Nanan and the role of Jesus in in Islamic States theology. Well,

thank you so much for the opportunity to respond to add Nan, and again, for the benefit of our audience. Study after study, they've quantitatively noted, I hope you're taking notes if you're listening to this 132,315 words are devoted to Jihad and the Islamic trilogy. And as we said, In the first part of our program, the Islamic trilogy should be taken together it is the Hadith, this surah in the Quran. Now, by comparison for our audience, the New Testament is made up of 138,000 words in the Christian New Testament. So I think that's a striking meta narrative when you just look at the amount of content and so I certainly don't want to be judged by the KKK. I want you to judge

Christianity by the Bible by the New Testament. And when we look at that, that can be an entirely different conversation. But the Old Testament there are 34,000 words that have some reference to violence in the Old Testament. And again, the Old Testament is much larger than the Quran. Of course, the Quran itself is smaller than the New Testament. So I want to make sure our audience knows when they compare the Quran proper to the Bible, you're comparing a much smaller body of literature, comparatively, when you look at the Islamic trilogy, there are 325,000 violent words in the Quran, so I don't have an axe to grind. Some of my best friends are Muslims. My friend Farhad,

who I worked out with for years, just made the hij. And he's one of the reasons Justin, I think that Craig and I were excited to write this book, Jesus in the Jihad ease, because many Christians simply don't know how to respond to Islam to the Islamic State are intimidated by it. They know little to nothing of the Quran and my friend Farhad. when we'd work out three times a week, he would say Jeremiah, we just worship the same God. You just worship Yahweh, I worship Allah, it's the same God. And so we wrote that for that purpose. Now, would you like me to move on to the ISIS endgame just given a sense of of Yeah, that the theology driving this particular kind of apocalyptic vision that

ISIS have and how Jesus plays into that? Well, I want to say this, Craig and I as we research for this book, I mean, it's amazing some things just can never be unseen yesterday, world headlines in de Beek magazine, that is the propaganda magazine that looks like a train wreck between Sports Illustrated and a walking dead comic is literally what the beak is like, Craig and I simply cannot unsee the things we've seen yesterday. They were showing pictures of what the bomb would have looked like that brought down the metro jet. And so we don't need none of us on this panel. We don't need to speculate what the ISIS endgame is. I mean, when you read the beak,

propaganda magazine Isa Jesus figures prominently in it. And I want to make sure our audience understands that according to Islamic eschatology, and when we say words like eschatology, we're talking about the doctrine of the times, Jesus is the ultimate Muslim. And as Craig said earlier in the show, Jesus is revered second only to the Prophet Muhammad in the Islamic trilogy. And so when Jesus comes back, he will kill all the Christians, he will end Christianity and Judaism, he will Hodge, he will marry, and he will die. So in effect, Jesus, according to Islamic traditions, will bring about the end of the world as the ultimate Muslim. It's quite a colorful description as well

in the literature of this character. And the as Jesus Jesus returns to sort of, in a sense, finalize the battle that Islamic State believe that they're obviously fighting, and that may be news to many people do whether it's Islamic State or not, though, is that a fair assessment of the general view of the end the the what you know, sometimes called technically the eschatology of of Islam, it was worth bearing in mind that a lot of what what Jeremiah just said about the eschatology of Islam is not actually in the Quran. Muslim believes a Quran is the word of God, after the Prophet died, his companions naturally were very keen on succeeding generations were very keen on trying to collect

the actual sayings of the Prophet the words he uttered during his life. And those can be collected in the centuries following the death of the Prophet. So that first collection of cybercrime, which is held by Muslims, to be perhaps the most reliable of all the collections that we have, even that collection is dated to over 200 years after the Prophet died. So this mentioned of Christ coming back, and breaking the cross, etc. These are all from the Hadees none of these verses are actually in the Quran. So this is always been a very, rather controversial matter amongst Muslim theologians. In the Quran. The only thing that Quran says about Christ or is almost nothing about the

eschatology. It is almost all centered around Christ, not being God, that Christ was worshipped as a god on this earth. And he's asked, do you tell people to worship you? And he says, No, I told people to only work if I only told people to worship God. It is others who who made this claim that I am God. So the Quran is very firm. It's teaching center around that the fact that Jesus should not be worshipped as God, and that he is a profit and great profit. Certainly a man who was a great teacher, but definitely not God. And it regards the worship of Christ as idolatry, one of the most serious sins in Islam, where do you stand personally, then on the status of those sores, regarding

all Honestly, I think these verses to do with Christ coming back to the sayings about Christ coming back, we're almost certainly influenced by Christian communities in the Middle East. So I'm not going to put as much

okay.

adulteration.

Okay, we'll come back to you, we'll have you on in a moment. And then and just just wanted Craig to come in on that. Because obviously, you you you've contributed some material in the book, Craig talking about the Islamic view of Jesus, which, which in yet in yet, as mentioned there,

obviously, any app believes that the Quran gives a better view of Jesus, he was not God, and many Muslims that none included, would say, the Gospels themselves do not represent a divine Jesus and where they do appear to that it's because of later influences and so on. What's your take on this in the way that Islam represents Jesus generally in the Quran, and so on? Well, I think we need to keep chronology, historical dates firmly in mind. The Quran is written down in the seventh century. And of course, as has just been said, the head deep, as much later I find it interesting that this it was acknowledged that the head teeth really cannot be trusted. I agree with that. The four New

Testament gospels that relate the life and teaching of Jesus including his crucifixion and resurrection, they are first century we have the words of Jesus in some of Paul's letters, which were written in the middle of the first century. In other words, the New Testament contains details about Jesus's life, death and resurrection. In sources written when eyewitnesses were still living, even family members like his brother James, and and yet, in Islam, there's a preference for what is in the Quran written

About 600 years after the time of Jesus now, from a historians point of view, earlier sources, multiple sources will always be preferred over a single source that is hundreds of years later. And Jesus's followers came to believe in his divinity because the things he said things he did, and especially the resurrection. The Paul is a great example of that, because he was not one of Jesus's original followers. He opposed Jesus's movement until he was encountered by the risen Jesus on the road to Damascus, that changed his life. He then recognized the divinity of Jesus and actually applied to him. verses from the Jewish scriptures, the Old Testament that were originally speaking

of God, the God of Israel. so profound was this vision. I would trust,

Paul any day because he knew Jesus's disciples. He knew his brother James, he met the risen Jesus. He was there in the first century, rather than somebody who has visions and and dreams and is writing a 600 plus years later. Okay, and add that you want to add anything? Yes, absolutely. Because there are so many things that were thrown in the middle. And I would like to have quick responses to them. Firstly, the number of words 132,000 words or 60,000 words of 25,000 words, this means nothing. What we'll have to look at is the context and the content. Okay? When we look at the content of these verses, and the context in the Quran, or other sources, what he calls a biology,

what Jeremiah calls

when you look at the context, nothing, nothing whatsoever justifies the murder in the killing of innocent people to the contrary, we have severe penalties stipulated in this literature against those who kill innocent people, women, children, and civilians for that matter. If we go to the Old Testament, genocide is justified there. If it is the word of God, as Jeremiah and Craig will claim, then they have to agree with genocide, okay? Because, I mean, you don't want me to quote the verses, Second Samuel chapter, you know, three, Chapter 15, verse 123, is there is clearly there, Moses, telling his followers in the book of Numbers, chapter 31,

verse 17, and 18, that take young girls for yourselves and kill all other women, children and men, right. And then we have in the book of Leviticus, where we find in chapter 20, Chapter 20, and 21 women can be burnt alive, if they are accused of chastity. Okay. So in these cases, some of the Europeans throughout ages in the, in the previous, you know, pre enlightenment period, people were being burned alive, because of these verses, there were hundreds of 1000s of women burnt were burnt alive by Christians, because they appealed to the Bible. Okay. And the last which to be burned in Europe was burned in 1782, not very long ago in Geneva, out of all places, and the last which would

be, which to be burned in the UK was burned in 1726 in Scotland. Okay, so is Christianity responsible for all of this? If Christianity is not responsible for all these atrocities, as clearly Jeremiah and Craig will argue, then why is ISIS responsible for Islam or Islamic sponsor provides very quickly let me go back to other points. gospel is loving and it has a lot of beautiful verses which I agree, agreed to, I agree to this point. gospels are amazing documents, beautiful documents, a lot of beautiful teachings in there, and I admire them. Okay, whether they actually come from Jesus or not, is another question altogether. But there are beautiful teachings that Buddhism I find

it more appealing if we want to be pacifists, and we want to spread love and justice and peace, but it is a pacifist religion. Okay. Why don't we follow Buddhism if we want to argue like that comparison between Bible in the Quran These are two different documents historically. As for as for eschatology, very quickly, I want to address this point and I raised a couple of points, and so did others. Islamic eschatology is very clear. First of all, it begins with the Quran. Quran clearly categorically states that Jesus will return in chapter four, verse 159, he will return to put the record straight. Okay, okay. Is there in the Quran tonight was I think he has go a bit further. I

would say that it is clear from the Quran that Jesus is rolling in in time, absolutely, but not the way ISIS is painting him. Okay. It's very clear that Jesus will not come and in fact, I believe if Jesus was to return in our life, he would probably end up fighting ISIS, okay. So Jesus will be on our side Jesus will be on the side of good people.

People who follow Islam to the letter people, the majority Muslim in the world, and this is a small group, which represents only itself and it's corruption of our faith, and nothing else. Okay, well, I will let Jeremiah and and Craig come back to some of those those objections you had to what they had to say just briefly though, and I alluded to this earlier. And then do you, however, as a Muslim, still, nevertheless believe that, that Islam does need to establish a caliphate, that this is the only true way in which Islam can be fully expressed through a governance which is absolutely governed by a Sharia law by you know, and that outworking as it were? Okay, this is a very good

question. First of all, what do we what do we mean by Caliphate? Just like a secular state? Okay, what do we mean by a secular state? North Korea is a secular state, the US governs by secular laws, okay. Britain is a secular state. But there is a difference in the secularism how secularism is actually practiced. There's a huge difference. Likewise, some someone can come along and say, I have a caliphate, okay. But it doesn't look nothing like Caliphate because Caliphate is very clearly defined in Islamic literature. Having said that, it is not the only way to govern legitimately according to Islamic literature, we have had legitimate kinships dynasties that were deemed

completely Islamic by the scholars at the time. For example, we had a Ubud dynasty. We had the Delhi Sultanate, for example, in India, we had the seljuk dynasty, we had the Ottomans. Okay. We are the Mughals in India, okay. And there were periods where not all Armada scholars considered them to be completely Islamic, without calling them a caliphate. So Caliphate is the ideal situation.

As long as it is practiced, or it is applied. You don't believe obviously Islamic state have established a caliphate? I don't believe I mean, just to claim that I have, you know,

a gold medal, and it's only the gold plated You know, it doesn't make it gold metal. Does it do that? Do you know people who have gone to join them, though? Do you know anyone who has? I don't know. And I wouldn't like to know, right? I mean, I'm just kind of trying to establish what what is the attraction, though? That has led 1000s? This is a very good question coming back to issue Jeremiah and Craig have raised in the book as well. I mean, it is amazing that they have the time to sit down and write a book on a death cult, and have nothing to say on atrocities committed by the US atrocities committed committed by Israel atrocities committed committed by Russia in the past 30

years. They have nothing to say on that. What about Israel? Has Israel ever done? I mean, there is Christian Zionism. There are Christian churches. Are you saying that some of these things are what drive people to embrace learning when when the last two days when atrocities are committed? Look at these French, the French case, who were these bombers, these terrorists? Who were these people? Some of them were smokers, a weed and skunk they were drugs. Some of our we're not even praying, what kind of Muslim would do something like that and go and commit an atrocity, the name of Islam. So they are as Islamic as the drug cartels in Mexico. They're just looking for some kind of, I mean,

okay, gentlemen, lots there that Adnan has had to say in response to you? Well, first, I want to thank Adnan for speaking out against the Islamic State, I want to thank any app for doing that, that requires a lot of courage and boldness on their part. So with those with respect to those issues, we agree and I really compliment you guys for doing that. I know the risks that you take within Islam doing that as well. But I want to make sure our audience knows this. You know, we're speaking so people can this is an educational program, Muhammad success when you study his life, and again, I'm a historian. So if you'll give me if you'll give me just a couple of minutes, Justin, when you

studies the success of Muhammad's life, his success depended on politics, not on preaching, teaching or religion. So before you turn me off, I just I want you to hear this and I'd be anxious to hear a response from our guests and Craig as well of course,

the Syrah again, Mohammed's biography for those of you that are at home, it gives a detailed account of his rise to power. When he preaches in the religion of Islam for 13 years in Mecca, he has around 150 followers. So Islam grew those first 30 years, give or take about 12 or 13 converts a year if you will, so probably around 12 or 13. Mohammed then, of course, is forced to what later to move to later what became known as Medina as we know it today, and he becomes a politician. He becomes a war Lord, and during the last nine years of his life, and again, I'm quoting from the Islamic trilogy. During the last nine years of his life, Muhammad was involved in the event of violence every six

weeks when he died, every Arab was a Muslim. So it's important that we understand that when he goes to Medina and we can talk about the principle of these verses superseding the Medina text from the meccan text, Islam when he becomes a political reality, a warlord grows at 10,000

converts a year. And I think it's important that our audience, our audience understands that. The other thing that I would like to say is, I just want to praise God for a moment as a Christian. And Justin, we can talk more about this, if you like, more Muslims have come to faith in Jesus Christ, the Messiah, in the last 10 years, than in the previous 14 centuries combined. Muslims, there are millions of peace loving Muslims around the world, and they're seeing that it is a bankrupt religion, and they are coming to faith and the Prince of Peace, Jesus Christ.

Can I come back and we'll have any at then. And then okay. First of all, when when Jeremiah accuses the prophet of being a warlord, tell me how a warlord can actually fight to defend his community, his community was faced facing annihilation, because because they were following that faith, he was besieged by an army of 24,000 men. If Jeremiah was to read the same literature carefully, he will see that 99% of the profits of wars were defensive in nature, he was attacked, even in the last year of his life, Romans were threatening him that they will attack him in an eyelid. And I let him so please read the literature carefully and read it with context. And don't read it selectively. Also,

with regards to conversions, to Christianity, I mean, I can make the same claim Islam has been the fastest growing religion in the world. On the back of that very book, it states in the 20th century, there are 200 million conversions to Islam. And there's a question raised why. And there's a reason why, because Islam appeals to people. It's a beautiful faith. It's not confusing. It's very straightforward, and it's loving is compassionate. Well, you can understand why some people in the West don't get that impression when obviously, a lot of what is seen on television screens is associated with with bombings, hatred, and I know a lot of people in the West who have converted to

Islam willingly. No one's forcing them and, and and with regards to 10,000, the number 10,000. That converted, show me one case where anyone ever in the lifetime of the Prophet was forced to accept Islam one case, it's a challenge. You're ready.

Let's do you want to respond before just before I should bring in app back in who hasn't spoken for a little while. But yeah, good. You know, I want to defer to Craig, I want to I feel like he's not enough had enough time to respond. Justin, if you don't mind. Any thoughts on what's been said up to this point, Craig? Well, you know, let me throw out a hypothetical question. We have 1000s of young men and even some women desperately trying to get to Syria or Iraq, to join ISIS and fight for ISIS. I wonder have how many Muslims are trying to get to the Middle East to fight against ISIS? If what our guests have said is correct, and that ISIS is so far out of alignment with Islam? Why haven't

volunteers in great numbers come to defeat ISIS, and show the world that Islam truly is peaceful at its core, peaceful, peace, loving and so forth? Why is it that it's only Western countries for the most part, that send in forces into danger to Iraq? And to oppose ISIS? I find that curious, you're referring here to some of them, the Muslim government countries, specifically Craig, which haven't which have chosen not to get involved in the conflict.

Outside I'm talking about countries outside of the Middle East, obviously Turkey.

In yet to respond, I feel we should go ahead. Thank you for that. And I Craig's just recent intervention about why Muslims are not taking on ISIS to be quite a quite a staggering statement. Let's bear these facts in mind. I just did not exist 10 years ago, it was only after the US government and the UK Government allied with I think Spain, you know, very few countries, waged an illegal war against the ark, where they had no United Nations backing, where you had an American president, who was admitted to us that God told him to invade Iraq. So a Christian president in America, allied with a

Tony Blair in the UK and Spain, went to war in Iraq without any backing from the United Nations, overthrew the regime of Saddam Hussein created chaos in that country, which allowed al Qaeda and then later ISIS to establish themselves in a land where they had no presence whatsoever before it was it was allied actions. It was the US led actions

Which led to the chaos in Iraq, and the vacuum of power in which ISIS and Al Qaeda later thrived. So it is astonishing. After creating that mess in Iraq in the first place, that Craig now turns around and has the nerve to ask Muslims, why don't you go and do something about it now? Right.

Okay, great.

Without disputing what has just been said about, well, whether it was a well advised or not to overthrow a mass murderer, Saddam Hussein, but just let that go. I still raised the question. If ISIS is so obviously, on Islamic, why aren't Muslim nations outside of the Middle East? Why like Indonesia, for example? Why aren't Muslims volunteering by the 10s of 1000s, to oppose this evil aberration of Islam? I just find that curious. And I think the lack of active opposition to ISIS on on Muslims part around the world. I think what that shows is that what Jeremiah and I have said in Jesus in the Jihad ease, is, in fact, an accurate reflection of what Islam and Mohammed really were

at their heart at the beginning, and the whole history of Islam, aggression, and so forth shows that we're gonna have to take a quick break, and then we'll, we'll come back for a final thought. So we've had a really intense discussion today on unbelievable asking is the Islamic State, Islamic, and it's taken us in various directions. If you'd like to contribute your thoughts on today's program, you're welcome to get in touch by email [email protected]. If you'd like to send me an email, I'll try and read as many of those out in the next program as we can. And I'll give you other ways to get in touch as well, towards the end of today's show, taking a quick break now and

we'll be back in a moment's time. Welcome back. I'm Justin briley. And this is the third and final part of unbelievable as part of faith explored today debating the Islamic State. Well, as I've mentioned, you can get in touch with us about anything you hear on today's program. You can do that via Facebook, and Twitter as well. Many people follow the show via Facebook and Twitter facebook.com slash unbelievable, JB or at unbelievable, JB for my Twitter account. And I always enjoy getting your messages that way, as well. Thanks very much. For instance, to someone who got in touch via Facebook, if I can just dig out the correct bit of paper bill said just wanted to say hello from New

York, I work as a police officer. And I always listened to your show in my spare time. If it wasn't for your show, I may have lost all hope in my faith years ago. Thank you for what you do. Bill, thank you very much for getting in touch. And if you'd like to get in touch, then do also email [email protected]. We'll be hearing some of your mails a little bit later on in the show quite a few people as well leave their comments underneath the show online. So if you go to the webpage, you can start to add your thoughts to the program as well. That's premiere Christian radio.com slash unbelievable links there of course to where you can find the podcast features,

videos, articles, and much more. Besides, don't forget that after today's program, there's the profile Maria Rodriguez speaks to Helen Shapiro, who was of course, so well known as a singer had some fame Didn't she in the 60s and 70s with some of her hits reaching the top 10. But she'll be talking about her life and faith growing up in a Jewish household. Now, next week on the program, there is no unbelievable on air. That's because we're giving spaces we often due to our fundraising appeal together now. so low that won't be an on air show. As we make space for that I will be putting something out on the podcast feed, I often put out a little something different or special.

And so look out for that arriving in your podcast feed on Saturday, next week. But I would like to take the opportunity to remind you that the week after that, we will be doing a special 10 year anniversary program. Unbelievable has been on air now for almost 10 years. In fact, this coming week marks the 10th year since we first broadcast the first unbelievable program on I think it was the 26th of November 2005. So what we're doing for that as well as hearing some of the past programs a little bit at the very first show as well. We're going to be taking your questions ask me any question and I will attempt to answer it obviously something to do with unbelievable what I think

about some of the shows and topics and things perhaps that have gone on and and all of that stuff. I'll try and do my best to answer your questions. If you want to send in your your question. You can email [email protected] and the other ways as well of course, Facebook, Twitter and so on. I'll take them that way as well. So look forward to hearing what you want to ask me about that. Unbelievable and faith explored is of course brought to you in association with premier Christianity magazine. I edit to the magazine. The latest edition has just landed and you can get yourself a free sample copy.

If you want to premiere christianity.com, slash free sample, we've been doing a lot of blogging though in the past week, obviously, in response to the attacks in Paris, some of those were responding to the Christian calls for praying for Paris and some practical ways in which Christians could do that the hashtag pray for Paris hashtag became quite popular shortly after the events took place. But probably the one that's caused the most response has actually been by a French ex atheist Gambino, he joined me actually for an unbelievable debate last year, and I asked him to write with his reflections as a former atheist on how he makes sense of the evil in Paris, which he did. He

made really in the blog, a case for the moral argument for God, if you like and saying that, in the end, an atheist, and he was one of them, cannot give an account of why these acts are really evil. That only if there is a God, can we say that something is truly right or wrong? And that of course, it raises questions for the Christian equally about why a loving God would allow such atrocities to occur. So if you're, you're interested in reading that, then do go on to the blog, premier christianity.com slash blog. Right now time to get into the final part of our discussion.

You're listening to unbelievable on premier Christian radio.

So we've been talking about whether Islamic State really represents true Islam. Well, Jeremiah J. Johnson, and Craig Evans, and their new book, Jesus in the jihad is confronting the rage of ISIS and the theology driving the ideology, say, like it or not, the wicked acts of Islamic State are justified from the pages of the Quran and the what Jeremiah has described as the trilogy, the Hadeeth, the Syrah and the Quran. And we've been hearing response both from Adnan Rashid of the Islamic education and research Academy, and also in yet bunglawala of Muslims for UK. And Craig Evans has also joined us as well noted New Testament scholar, but throwing his hat in the ring there

in that last section at non believing that there hasn't been enough response from the Muslim world to this this this threat that ISIS pose, and perhaps that some kind of tacit, if you like approval in some way of their act or or not willing to kind of step in and protect some of these people who are being murdered. I think this is

a very unfair statement because Muslims have been condemned, condemning ISIS, from the very point when they started to kill innocent people. That's where the problem is. ISIS are killing innocent people. And they are. They seem very sadistic about the way they're carrying on the business. So as an undertaking, I mean, we made it very clear that there is a policy to work against ISIS, Saudi Arabia is very vigilant about the issue.

And Pakistani government has made many statements scholars all around the world, whether they are American scholars, or whether they are Saudi scholars, or they are scholars from Egypt and other a lot of these scholars

have come out clearly stating what is wrong with ISIS. And I'm talking about scholars from all kinds of different backgrounds. I think the question is, why aren't they you know, putting their words into action? Why I'll get going there? Well,

Craig was to look at the situation carefully. Some of the biggest fighters are fighting forces against ISIS are Muslims. In Syria, there are other groups fighting the Kurdish forces and so on Kurdish or jabatan, Nusra or Kurdish or secular, they're there. They don't have a religion in my opinion. Okay. They are PKK and the communist actually. Okay, so they don't really represent Islam. But there are other groups on the other side who are fighting ISIS, they have declared ISIS to be a problem. Okay. So please, watch carefully, do not look selectively Don't be don't disregard or ignore Muslim condom nations. And we don't have to condemn all the way because we never created ISIS

in the first place. As an rightly pointed out, ISIS is a creation of the Christian world, is it? I'll tell you what. I mean, I can be extreme like Craig and Jeremiah and claimed George Bush, a warrior sent by God who is a born again, Christian is a God is the one who told me to go to Iraq. And in order to remove one tyrant, you kill over 3 million people in 20 years. This is what you call it. Let's, we'll move into towards final statements. Very quickly. I just want to make the final. You know, Craig, interestingly, pointed out fruit you should know a tree by its fruit. Yeah, exactly. Look at Islamic food. Look at Islamic civilization. Our universities, our hospitals are our

contribution to education, to tolerance to coexistence, to justice to peace around the world. Pick up any book I mean, I've written a book on this is my opportunity to advertise my book is you can find it on online.

Free of charges that are in PDF is called Islam the war on terror. It gives you some of the evidence as to how Islam made a difference to the world in a positive way. So can you please point out that link as well, he will, will make it available voluntarily make it available along with everyone's from the Show page today. And Jeremiah, as they starting to draw things took place, you may want to respond to some of what Dan had to say there. What's your take on all this? Well, yeah, Justin, I want to thank you for putting the program together. And I think any nod nod for joining us, you know, in the very same country where our counterparts have said, ISIS is being fought against, I

think we need to make it clear to the audience, and those very same countries, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, others, over $40 million a year is being donated to the Islamic State. So there are clearly sympathizers within those same countries. And I think something that we could have an interesting point to end on, and perhaps we can talk about it in another program. When you look at the worst terrorist attack that ever took place on American soil. Of course, I'm talking about 911. According to the 911 Commission Report, that attack cost al Qaeda somewhere in the neighborhood of 400. To $500,000. To execute, want to make sure our audience understands the finances of the Islamic State,

we don't need to guess they've put out a budget it costs $2 billion to run a moderate caliber, modern Caliphate By the way, the Islamic State makes six times the amount it took to pull off 911 every single day, they make $3 million a day so they have the resources to carry out their threats. Our audience has heard a lot of things on this. In this interesting radio interview. We've heard about American atrocities Israeli atrocities, we've heard that Christianity created ISIS, Craig and I have been compared to ISIS the way we interpret the Bible they interpret the Quran, I believe in the intelligence of our audience with the evidence that's been shared. The final my final comment

Justin according to the Quran, beginning at 3321. Muhammad is the divine human prototype. He is an excellent example of character 91 times in the Quran, Muhammad is said to have excellent character. I encourage our audience do a study for yourself. Does Muhammad have excellent character? What do you think about that? And I want to encourage you to make a decision for yourself. It's been great having you on the program. Jeremiah, I will we will come to Craig as well in a moment. But first of all, any actor any final thoughts as we close out today's show?

Sure.

Thank you for inviting me, it's been a very welcoming show.

regarding our two American contributors today, I honestly wish God at a time when the world badly needs

people to

heal wounds and understand each other. Instead of that what we've heard from our American contributors, is a very horrible portrayal of Islam, a very, very hurtful portrayal of Islam. And one of the chapters in their book chapter 11, is called reforming Islam, the cult of guests to find my face described as the cult of death. If I mean, I just asked your Christian listeners, imagine if someone if a Muslim described your religion as the cult of death, how does it feel? it's enormously hurtful. I don't believe Christ would have used language like that about others. You know, his own example I said, I mentioned earlier I read the Gospels, and how he treated others, and how you know

he,

how you talk to others, you would never look down on them, like that. So I'm disappointed that we've heard so many hurtful words today. But the last thing that we just heard where someone said, Look, if they want to find out more about Islam, go and read about the Prophet, I think that's probably the the most sensible thing that has been said today, there are hundreds of biographies of Prophet written by Muslims, Christians and others. So by all means, I would urge your listeners go and read one by a Christian and read one by a Muslim and make up your own mind stuff, the best way to learn and never rely on anyone else. But go and go find out firsthand and study yourself. If you're if

anyone who's a regular listener to unbelievable, that's what they come for two different points of view and making up their own mind. So thank you very much, and yet for bringing your thoughts to the table. And Craig, as we finish any app really believes that you've been very unfair to Islam in this book, that you're demonizing Islam and what that's not what you're aiming to do, though, is it as far as you're concerned? No Far from it. Not at all. I'm very concerned about Muslim people. I'm glad that most of them are in fact peace loving, and moderates. And I'm delighted to know that most of course do not support ISIS or any other form of terrorism. I think I would like to end on the

same note, just mention

Sure read about Mohammed read about him read, read an Islamic biography, the traditional one, read the Quran and then also read all about Jesus and read the Gospels, compare and make your own decision. I cast my vote for him who said love your neighbors, pray for your enemies and, and do things that are truly redemptive. And there's no destruction of people, no coercion, no threats, no death sentence against an apostate somebody who leaves the faith. No fat was no no forcing or coercion that way, but rather let your light shine and be and give to him who asks and don't turn away anyone who is in need. That that's the Prophet. I think that got it right. And that's why I'm a

Christian. Thank you very much for your contribution as well. I'm going to post links to both Craig and Jeremiah and of course, the book Jesus and the jihad is from today's program, and and indeed to to Adnan's book as well. And, of course, a link to where you can find out more about any app. So all of that available from premier Christian radio.com slash unbelievable