Is Islam a Threat to the West

Today is a contentious debate.

It's divisive,

it's controversial.

Point. We welcome them. And let's begin the debate. This House believes Islam is a threat to the west.

They tell me Islam is this on the Quran says this. And Muslims believe this. And I say, but I don't believe any of those things. Many of you would be surprised to see me on this side of the table. Religion conflicts with the ability of the state and of the West. Hello, greetings. I'm your friendly neighborhood Islamised. The only clash is a clash of the uncivilized and this is the whole thing about this debate is hypocrisy, deceit, censorship pipe even gas for a debate on the suffocation of Britain myth or reality. He pulled out a few days before that, no sorry.

contextualize events. Obviously you can end up with a simplistic view of what's going on in the world.

We live in a free state where you can express not impinge upon.

Again, Islamification.

We have rules, Mr. Gas was informed on those rules. This is what freedom is about. The media gives us one Islam

in sha Allah. This evening, you will hear about another

Good evening, and welcome everyone. And Salaam Alaikum as well.

tonight's debate is a contentious debate.

It's divisive, it's controversial.

But that's the point.

As a debating society, we owe it not only to our members, but to the broader society to Engage in topics that are controversial, yet critical,

divisive, yet relevant.

You may not agree with the speakers this evening. You may not respect some of them. But at the end of the day, central to this organization is the respect for freedom of speech. So I implore you and ask you to participate, to adhere to the rules of the debate and to argue back for fat argument for argument.

Now, let us begin

for the proposition this evening.

Speaking for the proposition is Mr. Steven gash. Mr. gash is head of the Stop Islamization of Europe campaign. He has spoken on issues of Islam in the United Kingdom, on issues of interfaith relations, and social issues relating to Islam within the United Kingdom and within Europe.

Following him, will be Robert vanderhoff.

He's a second year history student at Christ's who is also one of our competitive debaters.

concluding the argument will be a rush Jesse.

He's a medic, and a second year student at Emmanuel college

for the opposition

speaker

will be interest coffee.

Idris is a commentator, a writer, a speaker, who also holds a divinity degree from the angelicum in Rome. He currently resides in Cairo, and he where he pursues commentary and

commentary on the media.

an interfaith relations.

faraja is a third year history student from Newnham college. It was the former president of the black students campaign, and is currently the president of this year's experience Islam week.

Our third speaker, Abdul Al andalusi, is a writer and social activist, and one of the leading speakers of the Muslim debate initiative in the United Kingdom.

Ladies and gentlemen, we welcome them. And let's begin the debate.

At the despatch box.

Thank you for inviting me, it's nice to be given the opportunity for once to be able to discuss the issues and debate the issues, which invariably uncensored from doing in the British media.

So I'm very grateful for this opportunity.

The first thing we do have to do is define what we mean by the West. Exactly. But the West can be summed up in one word I would suggest and that word is democracy. With all its nuances and imperfections for Western countries have adopted democracy of a way of empowering people to voice their concerns and to vote in and out their leaders.

saying we have a liberal democracy. Well, you're not going to use such a term because you might experiment. So start liberals have a list as long as your tax bill of all the things they want to ban. And unfortunately, one of the things I wish to ban is free speech. Mr. Bad, you just speak up a bit.

Yes.

I'm sorry. Can you hear me now?

What we have these democracies, it's a very fragile thing. I'll remind people if you need reminding that people have been only able to vote in this country, men and women

for less than 100 years,

some countries longer, some less. And only this week, we're debating in Parliament whether prisoners should have long last get the right to vote.

Islam is the very antithesis of democracy.

It is a despotic theocratic

doctrine, which oppresses its people. All over the world. This is the truth. And if we look at the West, there's not a single country that is blissfully free of Islam.

But there's one country in the world which only has Islam as its religion, and that is the seat of Sonny has gone to Saudi Arabia.

You know, we have signs in Saudi Arabia saying, Muslims this way, non Muslims that way.

And that is what the world is gravitating to. Certainly, the 57 Muslims, countries in the world

are gravitating towards either the sheer form of Islam, as practiced in Saudi and Iran, or sunny as long as practice in Saudi Arabia.

Not one of those 57 Islamic countries has signed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, referring instead their own Cairo declaration, which enshrines Sharia law. Sharia law in itself is divisive, it deliberately undermines the status of non Muslims. And it gives them the term kuffaar.

They don't have the rights that Muslims have. And this is enshrined in all of the

Islamic texts from the Quran, to the Howdy.

non Muslims have a lower class status.

Now, I don't know about you. But I think that non Muslims have a right certainly a non Muslim countries to a class where they can determine what's good for them, what's right for them what's right for their country. The thing about democracy is, we can change these values, you may believe in capital punishment, you may even believe that people should be beheaded.

But that is the will of the people. It is not the immutable word of some dodgy data.

And that's the difference. You know, we can change things. We can decide how we want our countries to be. We can form alliances, we can break alliances, we vote in our leaders, we vote them out.

That is not the case in Islamic countries that certainly some have the appearance of democracies, but in every single Islamic

Country, non Muslims are being oppressed.

And this

oppression is not being reported in the Western media. I'll give you a good example, in Egypt, I mean, a year ago

330,000 pigs, a third of a million pigs were slaughtered barbarically by being buried alive, beaten to death,

or

dropped in acid paths 30 million pigs

under the smokescreen of eradicating swine flu, no other countries are fit to do that. Certainly we have pigs slaughtered in the west to combat the disease. But in Egypt, the sole reason for that barbaric slaughter of a third of a million pigs

just to be finished, the point was to starve out the Coptic Christians who are being persecuted in a genocidal fashion in Egypt.

Coptic Christian girls in Egypt are being raped at the age of 13, adopted forcibly converted to Islam and Marian was the men. That's not only happening in Egypt, it's happening in Malaysia information.

What do you think about Boutros Ghali was the secretary

the the threat of

threat?

I'm making the point. I'm making the portability, respect of where we are now. The country is Domecq democratic countries and what's happening in the rest of the world. Yeah, and that's why we've been trying to my organization is stopped Islamization of Europe.

We are being Islamist, while I want our trip to be in a bombing democracy into Muslim countries such as Afghanistan in Iraq. We're instilling Sharia law in our own country.

At a demonstration on September 11, outside Cairo, Moscow, we were confronted by 2000 Muslims. Last year, we had a demonstration

every September the 11th. Okay, and we say and we told that confrontation. The reason we chose September the 11th is because of the Twin Towers, you know, the disaster, but the reason al Qaeda chose that date, September the 11th, is because on that date in 1683, the Muslim holes were thrown back from the gate of Yeah, gates of Vienna. So

Islamic law was prevented on September the 11th, all those years ago, and it sticks in the craw of Muslims all over the world. That is that Europe has not now

an Islamic State.

In Harrow, nobody vilified for doing these demonstrations, we actually got chased out in on September the 11th. So he held it again on December the 13th. That year.

What's happened in Hatton pero is the counselors who are opposed to us now. For us are now forced to be feeding schoolchildren house slaughter to

the Islamization of these children is taking place without their parents knowledge. It's just been exposed this year, there's a bit of a debate going on in Harrow is whether that's the case, it may interest people to know that in Denmark, every piece of poetry sold in supermarkets apart from a tiny proportion of organic produce is halau. So people are being forced fed, this produce deceitfully

to be completing cultural integration and Islamization simply because as society as we are a democracy we decide to set the values the people that decide to come to our country, we accept that this isn't necessarily some sort of Islamization

of democracy.

The whole foundation of democracy is choice This choice is being removed from the from the people who are being forced rent this food because they don't even know they're eating it. New Zealand

agnostic

because critics in

the Jewish counselors, but they, their children are not being forced fair. Hold on. It's all about

I have no problem with people eating halau food, a lot of vegetarian myself. Because if they have the choice, that's what that's what the whole thing is about. Let me just make this point. I

don't know. I want to make this point. It's

Got two minutes from

Turkey. Okay. People are clamoring to get Turkey to the EU. We went to war against Saddam Hussein for using chemical weapons against the Kurdish people. Okay, Tony Blair made a big thing about this is the right thing to do because Kurds were killed by chemical weapons, Turkey, use chemical weapons, reportedly against those same same Kurdish people. And were clamoring to get 70 million Muslims into our European Union. And this is the whole thing about this debate is hypocrisy, deceit, censorship radical and the facts aren't there, my organization would not exist if the British media and the Western media did their jobs and reported things in partially, instead of going time after

time, after Israel, to what's happening in the Gaza Strip, misreporting things like that, like the suppose and killing of Muhammad Alger and the 12 year old boy against the wall, children behind his father is complete fabrications thrown out of a French course. No redaction, no retraction to the media is the media did their job properly, we would not I would not need to stand here now debating the issue. In fact, none of us would need to be here, because you would all agree with me.

Just a reminder to speakers, it is purely within your choice to accept points of information. So when you're speaking again, if you need to make a point, please do this but at the same time.

Please also feel open to take their questions.

Mr.

tawfeeq

Bismillah R Rahman Rahim

Allah most Gracious, Most Compassionate

Alhamdulillah Allah Allah mean, all praise be to Allah The Lord of the worlds for Salah wa salam melacha Muslim said Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam Peace and blessings of Allah. Upon his final messenger Mohammed was Salam alaykum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh unmade a peace, on the blessings on the mercy of Almighty God be upon all of you here today.

You honor me, You honor me by inviting me to this place. I want to meet by coming and listening to this debate about Islam. I had hoped Mr. Vice President, I had hoped to be invited last year to speak in a debate you had last year that this House believes there's more to this life than being really really ridiculously good looking.

But unfortunately, you didn't invite me You asked Peter Stringfellow to come.

That's the story of my life, really.

So I want to talk to you instead, in these few minutes, I have to speak I want to speak about another beauty. I want to speak to you about the beauty of Islam.

I've traveled in fact, I've come from Egypt.

And with the greatest respect to my honorable opponent.

The Egypt he speaks of is not an Egypt I know.

I'm sure I didn't want to interrupt but just as a point of information, we'll call it the pig episode. The pigs were slaughtered in Egypt because His Holiness, Pope shenouda, the third requested of the Egyptian government that they be killed.

Now I want to talk to you today. Some people you know, some people talk about a clash of civilization.

A clash, Islam being a threat to the west, I believe and Muslims believe that there's no clash of civilizations. The only clash is a clash of the uncivilized.

The only problem is between at different people shouting at each other,

who don't take the time to listen to what the other has to say. And it's on both sides.

There are Muslims who shout and don't listen.

And there are people

In the west who shouting, don't listen, but Islam is at home, in every culture, and in every civilization.

Terrorism may be a threat to the west. It is

a scourge.

And I traveled on a plane myself from Cairo and was very aware when I was being checked, that terrorism is indeed a threat.

Some people would perceive immigration as a threat to the west, as hordes of people travel from foreign lands. And we see people with foreign looking faces and different lifestyles that may be perceived as a threat to the west in Switzerland. quiet little Switzerland famous for clocks and chocolate, and cowbell, and banking.

The people of Switzerland were frightened. They were made to be frightened about Islam. Because the people very cleverly chose to link Islam with hordes of people who were coming over the mountains that dead of night with their suitcases and their children following them without jobs or visas. And I said to the Swiss ambassador in prayer, I said, Sir, if you have a problem with immigration sorted out,

but Islam isn't a problem. Islam is not a threat to anyone.

I want just to tell you what Islam is.

Because I hear many people telling me what I believe as a Muslim. They tell me Islam is this on the Quran says this. And Muslims believe this. And I say but I don't believe any of those things.

You know, we see we see on the television, very terrible things happening. And we condemn them. Absolutely. Please. So

many people come to you with things like ducks and swans and chapter nine, verse 29, which makes a difference like slave, unbelievers rarely find them and, you know, do so until they pay tax and they should be humbled by this. And all I say to you is that you may be a peaceful man, and you may call it something unpleasant. But have you ever not considered that perhaps?

Thank you very much. I was waiting for that one.

Listen, listen to the

children shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes,

that houses spoiled and their wives raped, dash the young men to pieces

have no pity. No,

no.

no pity on the fruit of the womb, the children shall not be spared Isaiah, chapter 30. I don't have information. Now I want to finish my point, please, I'm in the middle of a point. I used to be a Roman Catholic priests.

And I have the greatest respect for the teaching of Christianity. And the teaching of Judah has the greatest deepest respect.

Tomorrow, after tomorrow, I will meet Archbishop Gregorian viatera, in Great Britain in London.

And I'll go to hit the head of the Greek Orthodox Church, and I'll say to him, so I come to present the the good wishes and respect of the Muslim community, to Your Eminence, and to the church, prior care of my work. And the work of all the Muslims I work with is to travel the world as ambassadors of Islam. Now, I know I know the Bible like the back of my husband. And I know what I just read is no more typical of the Bible. But I'm The Man in the Moon.

That message that is not the message of Christianity, nor is it the message of Judaism.

And people I'm in the middle of Ansari, and people are quoting things that meet you know, when I was training for the priesthood, one of my teachers said, the devil can call scripture. You can take anything from anywhere in any scripture. And you can even take 10 quotations or 20, I've got 20.

And you can sum them sum the religion up, but this is wrong, please. There are 15 million Jews in the world for various reasons. We know one of them. Neither one of them has been persecuted over the centuries. The second reason is, Judaism, regardless of what it says in the Old Testament, is not a proselytizing. Religion is very difficult to become a Jew.

And unlike Islam, where Muslims have spread

their faith at the point of the sword across much of the face of the world.

Whether there

is a big difference between a non proselytizing religion, Judaism, and one where it's been enforced upon people at the point of assault, as is happening now 3.3 million Christians have been murdered in Sudan in my lifetime by Muslims being Christian. Okay. Last year I met thank you for that point last year. I met in Istanbul, the Chief Rabbi of Turkey. I visited first the Patriarch of Constantinople. And I said to him, sir, You honor me and you honor all Muslims by seeing and I've come to present the good wishes of all Muslims, as I did to the mayor of Cambridge this afternoon. And she gave me a Jew. And she gave me this lapel pin and I said I'll wear it tonight at the debate

in honor of my meeting with you. And after meeting the patriarch in Constantinople, I met the Chief Rabbi of Turkey.

The Chief Rabbi of Turkey

carries the title haha Masha.

Haha Masha is a title that was given to the leader of the Jewish community in 1453. By Sultan magnet, the second, the Jews had fled from Catholic Spain fled for their lives, when they will be turned out of the synagogue, and they fled to the Ottoman Empire. And the leader of the Jews and the Ottoman Empire in 1453, was given the title half Han Bhatia, Chief wise man of the Ottoman Empire, as the patriarch was getting the title leader of the Orthodox peoples. Let me just read, please, I just want to I've not got much time since what I want to do is just say,

you hear a lot of nonsense. And forgive me for calling it nonsense. You hear a lot of nonsense talk on the TV about Islam, I hear it and say, What are they saying?

Islam isn't like this isn't Islam? What are they talking about? Islam is very, very simple.

I will sum up for you what Islam teaches. And all else is helping people to live out that teaching. Islam teaches two things. One, there is a God

as Muslims we say, a Shahada La ilaha illAllah. I bear witness that there is one God.

And that's the first point there is a God. And the second point, Islam teaches that God speaks to His creation. as Muslims we say, well, Asha had won the Mohammad Rasool Allah and I bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah. But as Muslims, we could also say,

we could say I by no God, but the one God in heaven, and I bear witness that Moses is the Messenger of Allah.

We could say, I'm a witness that there's no God, but Allah, and I bear witness that Jesus is the Messenger of Allah, my dear friends, Islam is not a threat.

Muslims believe I'm sorry, I only have a minute of one minute left, so I can't I'm sorry. Muslims believe that Islam has existed since the beginning of time. They believe it to be the natural religion of mankind. And we hope to show as a team in sha Allah, God willing, that Islam, like all religions, respects the beliefs of others. Islam, I tell Muslims all over the world when I traveled to speak to them, this is the century of Islam in the West. It's the center of Islam in the West, because Muslims in the West can teach the rest of the Muslim world about values that have been lost, but that are fundamentally Islamic. Muslims that have been brought up in New York and London or

Australia, and France and Italy, can teach Muslims in the world about democracy, and about the high importance of education for women, and about so many things we hear on the TV or on Islamic.

The media gives us one Islam insha Allah. This evening, you will hear about another one, as salaam aleikum wa rahmatullah.

Ladies and gentlemen, Robert van Hoff for the proposition

Right, ladies and gentlemen, as we heard from the Vice President, this is an issue which is particularly contentious, particularly provocative, and particularly polemical. And what we heard from Stephen was a case whereby Islam is entirely alien to Western values of democracy. But what I want to try and do for you today, ladies and gentlemen, is present a moderate framework in which we might support the motion presents a framework which opposes Islam, not by by its very nature, but by its nature as a religion, a framework, which sees religion as a threat to a secular West, and in that sense, is able to erect a framework which is not specifically Islamophobic and is not the

uncivilized discourse that we heard from first opposition, which is generally moderate, and logical. So what I want to do for you today, is reconceptualize the nature of the West. It was offered to us by Stephen. Now, what Stephen told us was West is about democracy. Well, I think that's true. But I think the West is actually about something deeper. And that deeper thing is secularism. So what I want to do today is build exactly where those values come from. I think more important than the political consensus is the ideological consensus, which underlies Western values. Now, it's quite quite hard to pin down what exactly we mean by those values. We were looking at a West in which the

UK has a head of head of state who is simultaneously the head of the church in which the Prime Minister can appoint bishops, which contrasts very deeply with a secular branch, which consistently has implemented secular measures make clear working UK committed to socialist welfare development, which contrast again very sharply with the US, which is very much anti health care reforms, as we see today. She says the West is quite difficult to pin down. But we do think is that ultimately what separates Western values from values which we might construct is the opposite. So for example, from medieval values, is the belief in rationality and where we think that rationality comes from, when

we think Western values, what what we have at the heart, is the enlightenment. Now there is a problem with the Enlightenment as a concept, which is pluralist historians have continuously rejected the nature that the Enlightenment has any kind of unity as a body of content. That is to say that while there are Enlightenment thinkers who endorse values like democracy and secularism, there are equally enlightenment figures, like Pierre Bale, who are devout humanists, but we do say that the Enlightenment was a methodological unity. And what that methodological unity consists of, is a consistent and universal application of skeptical doubt, all facets of life.

Critically, ladies and gentlemen, this application of doubt, is incompatible with religious beliefs. Because we say what religion is about at some level is about faith, and about an acceptance and about an obedience to certain religious authorities, whether they be Talmudic or whether they be the crown, no thanks.

And we say on on those grounds, there is a very clear clash between a Western secular morality which seeks to question everything, and which seeks to impugn every concept including morality, and ethics, and a religious morality, which, or even a religious set of values, which is accepting and based upon faith. Now we say the fact we say that that kind of secular morality is conducive to democracy, which is why, as Steven told you, we do see a steady pattern of democratic values throughout the West. But that's simply because we value democracy as an instrument. And because a secular morality allows us to evaluate its relative merits, we say democracies can only emerge in a

context whereby the questioning of religious authorities has allowed us to remove states who depend upon monetary depend on divided rights and to remove theologians. And that's only possible for me begin to apply this enlightened, secular and critical morality, certainly effect. So we say that it's quite clear that despite his diversity, and despite the diversity of the Enlightenment, we do have a solid value system, which underpins what we believe today. And what we do today. And that belief system is secularism. And by secularism, I mean, the consistent questioning of any principle and that's secular, because religion cannot cannot exist in an environment in which everything is

continually questioned, because it is predicated on faith. Yes.

My analysis is not a democracy. And secularism cannot exist side by side. That's a misrepresentation. I'm thinking democracy logically follows from a secular environment, not the opposite. But what I am saying is that religion is untenable in a, in a purely secular environment. Why? Because religious people will inevitably face conflicts between a secular Western value system, which seeks to question everything, including their religious beliefs and their own

religious beliefs, which in some sense, are authoritative and non violent. So for that reason, we see very clear conflicts between the the attempt of the state to legislate on issues which have a religious signification. So, for example, to legislate on issues of abortion, to legislate on issues of education, to legislate on issues of capital punishment, these issues which in effect, which have religious significance to people, religious people are therefore forced into a conflict between religious values and secular Western values, and ultimately, were religious when they were religious individuals have resisted this, as they must do, if they are to follow their religious imperatives,

they've undermined and challenged the secularizing imperative of the West. So we say given the West is committed to secularism, given that religion and Islam in particular, nothing particularly given Islam as a religion as a religion is a post secularism definitionally. And given that the West has a secularizing, imperative,

religion conflicts with the ability of the state and of the west to fulfill that secularism ability, we say religious individuals have inevitably, throughout their existence under the state undermined the state's ability to enact secular legislation. And we say that is a continual and repetitive challenge. And we say in that sense, Islam threatens the West as a secular entity by virtue of challenging and undermining its ability to implement secular methods

is that religion is necessarily in every case

is that religion involves

definition, I think it would be fair to say that religion.

And that was certainly the kind of idea of Islam that was given to us by first opposition. But I think given that faith is not universal application of a critical and a criticizing value system, faith does not consist of impugning and problematizing. Every valid point by contract involves acceptance, I think. And that's exactly when you believe things on the basis of faith, then there is a there is a pulpit with a Western system, which does not believe anything on faith, but we do believe things merely on the grounds of logical viability that is, which is willing to question any concept, and except for on the basis that they can be accepted fully following logical analysis, not

on the basis of faith, there is a clear clash of values comes here, right? And that clash is played out in everyday society. When religious people try and resist the secularizing imperatives of the sacred in that sense, they threaten the ability of the state to enact its balance and the ability of the west to function fully as a system going.

Okay, yes. So, in some sense, right. UK is not a secular country, right? I told you.

I told you at the start

of state is simultaneously the head of the church. But why is it not a secular country, ladies and gentlemen, well, I say because the western because the secular rising project, which is inherent to the West has not been properly fulfilled, therefore, it remains and not a secular state, it has not fulfilled the mission, which is valid push introducing attacks. In that sense, the reason that the West is not an unreasonable UK in particular is not secular, is because it is threatened. It is it is imperfect in terms of its value system, because it has been threatened by religion. Now in saying that, I don't mean to suggest that in a sense, secularism is desirable. And thanks, all that

religion is undesirable. Like I think religion gives us lots of things. And I think secularism isn't necessarily the most desirable system, you might accuse it of a lack of, for example, moral furmity. However, I do think that if we strip the motion of its value laden set, and if we can see what the West has, we must do as a value system predicated on enlightenment secular norms, and if we can see Islam as a non secular system, and therefore, if we can see all the West isn't as has as a society, which is not properly fulfill its secularizing imperative given that it is not secularizing. In reality, although it is secular in values, that we must conclude that the reason that the West has

failed to carry through its secularizing project is because of religious opposition is because religions have continued to threaten the ability of the West

twinax Nation, Islam is a religion Islamic that says is no different is long it challenges our ability to implement the values that the secular values that are fundamental to Western civilization whether or not we regard that as a good thing. It definitely and undeniably constitutes a threat. And for that reason I stand on proposition.

second speaker.

Ladies and gentlemen, this has been a really interesting debate so far, particularly on the proposition bench because we interesting, we had a complete dichotomy between the first and second speakers. I thought we were supposed to have unity on the side. But obviously, this is a controversial debate on all levels. So I'll integrate my rebuttal. During my, my points. gonna start off by talking about the actual framework of this debate. The second speaker tried to define what the West is, I think, in my opinion, a lot more pertinently than the first speaker, or B, I see flaws in his definition. He defined it as basically being a secondary society. And whereas the first

speaker defined it as being democracy, but the West is a lot broader than that. What is the West? I think that this debate, I mean, the union, forgive me for saying it is very sensationalist in some of its titles, and the title this House believes Islam is a threat to the west, we just need to take a step back. What is Islam festival, interests are big to try and explain the core beliefs of the religion. But Islam is not a monolithic entity. Islam has been around for 1400 years. It has a massive divide within its religious theology. You have Cindy's, and she has within 8%, roughly, of the Muslim population, which is Sunni, you have four major legal schools of thoughts within that you

have lots of different sects. My point is that there's no single archetype to define what Islam is. And this variety and diversity is very important to bear in mind when we come into points such as terrorism, an accusation of what Islam, the religion, they ideology, fact the civilizations that is vetted, and have gone on to do

so Islam is a threat to the west, right? I think that the threat in terms of terrorism, because let's face it, that's what's on everyone's mind, right? In terms of terrorism, the threat to the west, and to all people, not just the western people is extremism in all of its forms, and all of its political persuasions, and every single ideology, be capitalism, be communism, be Islam be Christianity has the potential to have political extremist fringes, within the ideology. Does that make the ideology inherently extreme, inherently violent? No, it doesn't. It means that people can interpret things as extremists in Europe in the last 70 years, what we've seen extreme nationalism

in the form of fascism, we saw it in the under the Nazis we swore in Spain under Franco we saw it under miscellany does that mean nationalism within itself as a concept is inherently bad, no means an extreme interpretation of what nationalism is, is wrong. Similarly, we saw that with communism and the starting and the millions of people of the extreme left that were killed under such an ideology. So let's look at the reality on the ground today.

It's very interesting statistic. I'm not that person. Right. But Europol, which is the US, criminal intelligence, and law enforcement agency has this on their website, a very obviously reputable organization, since it's the US criminal intelligence agency. In 2006, there were 498 terrorist failed foiled or successful attacks. In the whole OBE, thank God, most of them didn't happen yet failed or foiled.

498 of them 495 of these attacks, according to Europol were by separatists, left wing right wing or single issue terrorists, with only three being by Islamists. In 2007, there were 583 of these sorts of attacks failed or foiled or successful. Only four were pertaining to Islam is out 583. And in 2008, there were 515 in the whole of the EU, and one was pertaining to Islamism.

extremism is the real threat to Europe and to people and extremism can be taken from any sort of political ideology. No, thank you.

No, thanks. So the accusation that is Islam inherently extreme, I would say that no mainstream Islam if you look at all the mainstream scholars of today with absolutely apparently condemn extremists and condemn terrorism. Why would you in Islam, the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon being said? I think

In a moment, that to kill one person is is as if you killed the whole of mankind. And to save a person's life is as if you've saved the whole life of mankind. And that is the spirit within mainstream Islam which extremists seek to take and pervert for their own political ends go for it

in England, have reportedly been reported as being what we would call radicalized. If, if the Taliban and Al Qaeda profess such diverse form of Islam, as you would have us believe, why on the 1 billion Muslims are more fighting themselves why on Saudi Arabian troops, Indonesian troops, Libyan troops, Syrian troops in Afghanistan and Iraq fighting the Taliban? Thank you.

I don't have time to take it so you'll have to sit down.

Right It's such a liberating

because we all believe the reasoning behind the invasion of Afghanistan and definitely the war troops that if we, like, you know, really agreed with it or not. That's

an utterly perverted point. Okay. radicalized radicalization in mosques, right? Okay. What is radicalization, it's all forms of what we call radicalization, violence, because I have never met in my life. And I'm an active member of the Islamic community, both in Cambridge and back home in Leicester. I have never met in my life, a violent extremist. I've met people that people would call extremists because yeah, they disagree very strongly with Western foreign policy. Maybe they think in Muslim countries, they should be Islamic states. They don't believe in the UK or in the West, they should be Sharia law. By the way, I'll come on to that later. I have never met someone that

wants to be alone in the UK. So don't know where that comes from.

No, thank you. The definition of radicalization really needs to be looked at because this word is sensationalist. It's been drawn by the media as if you always think the same thing, the threat to the west would be violent extremism, right, in terms of this sort of radicalization. And I fundamentally do not believe most Muslims are like that. And even if some people are that is not the message of Islam, the message of Islam as mainstream Islamic scholars, and people believe is that of peace.

And yeah, so it may sound cliche, but most Muslims, you know, don't believe that, because if they Well, we'd all be terrorists, right? No, thanks. And so

while I'm running out of time, so what's really interesting, actually, since you know, you may not believe me, because obviously, you know, I'm Muslim, and I'm going to be biased, right? Let's go. And my father has to say, there was my five report that was circulated in June to the intelligence agency. It was a research paper written by the behavioral science unit, and it was called understanding radicalization and violent extremism in the UK, right up your street, right. So that conclusion was that there is no single pathway to violent extremism, or anything, as Cambridge students would probably think that and it's a bit too simplistic to think there's one way to

extremism. But what was very interesting and surprising about the report, when it was circulated in June, was that they concluded that actually fundamentalism and religious deal is not the driving factor of those involved in terrorism. In fact, most of the case studies they looked at the people that are associated with terrorism, do not practice their faith regularly. A lot of them do drugs, they drink alcohol, and they visit prostitutes, which if you don't know, is against against the mainstream beliefs of Islam. And there are a lot of religious converts, which the report describes as religious novices that actually says people like religious literacy, and MMA fighters report goes

far enough to say that actually, Islam the religion serves to prevent and protect against such a threat. Because the pathways to extremism are a lot to do with migration, marginalization, and racism in society, and religious naivety, I add the whole proposition to actually go and look at that report. And the findings of it because this is an objective, come on intelligence agency, and they're saying that it's not Islam is not the religion that causes that to happen. Okay, I'm running out of time. No, thank you. I can't take any more points. I'm running out of time.

Right. Yeah, normally.

So

let me do a bit of rebuttal. Get down to some of these points. Okay. Right, the pig episode in Egypt. Okay, so that happened, right? I think it's ridiculous that that happened. That's not Islam. Okay. Moving on to

one of these a session about people getting raped and like conversions and all this sort of stuff. Right, ladies and gentlemen, the practices of what happened in Muslim Islamic countries, Islamic countries, by the way, I don't think there's any sort of Islamic country in the world today. It's not the teachings of Islam, the teachings of people cultural practices. If you're saying that, you know, like democracy is in amicable with Islam. If we look at the Muslim countries around the world today, products reeling from the colonialist era. Iraq. Hashemite monarchy was a historian sorry, Hashem Imani. He was like, propped up there. Then they went, this is reeling from like, 30 minute

Empire. And then you know, Saddam Hussein's by party, there was a coup. All this stuff is going on in the Muslim countries. There's not this like dichotomy between Islam and democracy.

See, look at the context of these places a gentleman if you don't contextualize events, obviously, you're going to end up with a simplistic view of what's going on in the world. So, yeah, hello food, people are forced out of time. People of course have food. Yeah, because someone's standing with a gun to their head, right in terms of

I'm just going to say, because I'm running out of time, liberal democracy, I thought that meant government, by the people, for the people of the people. And if the people still wish to have some sort of morality that's based in religion, then let them have it, because democracy is about what the people want is not fundamentally secular in all of its views. No, thank you. I'm running out of time. As you all know, now, I just like to say that Islam is not a new phenomenon, ladies and gentlemen, it was not created in 2001 with September 11, it's gone back 1400 years. And we have to understand it as a civilizational. As a civilization, it interacted at the centers of civilizations,

civilization in places like Spain or Spain, as the gal already mentioned, produce some of the it produced at the center, which produced the canon of medicine, which was used as an as one of the like, biggest books in medicine until the early 19th century, we can see an intellectual exchange the translation movement on ninth century Baghdad, which was when I spoke to Hippocrates, Plato was translated into Arabic, it was only those translations into Arabic, which the Europeans then use in the Enlightenment to they use the Arabic translations to translate into Latin and so basically like it's obviously legislation is not against the transfer of knowledge. Let's look at history and look

at what Islam has given to the world as a civilization understanding as a religion and not take it to be the fundamental interpretation of experience but look at it as a religion in and of itself thank you very much

at this point in the debate we open up the floor to speeches and propositions in opposition and abstention speech for the proposition please okay I'm gonna start with you back their

name and college please

Now, let's say two things which are gross generalizations one is observation to almost

everything

but these days I

find that

people

are Christians

isms religion

and for goodness sakes, not pretend to be anything other than

ridiculous all the time

to the opposition

and

we just heard

a lot

Spurgeon is not going to say one other thing is that he needs to do you know, but regarding this industry in general the United Nations was

in Egypt was you know, the richest man in Egypt

he made his fortune in Libya, which country another thing could you stop me please once Arabic country this applies to every item in Saudi Arabia there is no one best way guys I can tell you a striptease in Turkey interview there is a porn industry which is illegal.

I think anyone would getting up because we didn't use

global warming.

Arguments

much for Mother's Day. Wow. Okay, it is my assistant dean will chase from the door stay in the second wait. 1609 actually when they came back to the room

Back then we were Catholics, even Muslims were accused of hiding, like practicing Islam secretly. Well, we can return to Islam. Again, this is racism. So let us be this is an example of the status of the mortgage. This

is the capital. Okay?

So this was quarterback,

helicopter, he's trying to search for the truth. We know how to do this with some aggregators, the nation in Ukraine because of people who are too busy. So

this is

democracy.

We are really close to time right now. Please limit your speeches, again to no more than a minute. Now speak to the extension, please. Yes.

Especially because a lot of the countries that people seem to be naming as St reflect Islam, such as Egypt, or Saudi Arabia, or countries, which Western governments and Western powers are supported, and are some of the most brutal dictatorships around the world. And actually, the fact of the matter is on the grassroots and lots of those countries, for example, even in Turkey, and the secularism that took place there, and the way that they were able to suppress freedom of speech and freedom, practice of religion. And actually secularism wasn't the separation of religion and state, actually, it was a suppression of people's genuine freedom of expression of art. And it wasn't just taking

place for people from religious backgrounds, it was taking place with people with any ideology, which was different to the status quo and Western powers. But more than happy to accept this happening now, should we should we actually have a discussion to propose that the House believes that the West is a threat to the rest of the world? He's actually done a question

for the proposition.

Yes. Take your name and your college.

Ga formula.

It's a question of Islamophobia is a very, very interesting

because we commonly labor under the belief that phobia means fear. But it doesn't,

possibly doesn't mean the fear of confined spaces, it means the irrational fear of confined spaces. If you get into a left.

If you're buried alive and only have 30 seconds worth of oxygen left to survive, the fear that you're experiencing is entirely rational, it's safe, it's sensible, it might even give you enough energy to survive.

We often hear this idea of Islam having two sides, a very liberal, open and spiritual side. And then certain verses certain verses, like aggressive in the Bible, that can be twisted, and used as justification for terrorists. And when interest quoted the opposite, and revealed that the Old Testament had violent versus your point of view, and shame on you for doing so, because the point is, is that he completely dodged the point. The point is, no one uses verses from the Old Testament today to justify their violence and have Idris chosen to begin his speech by quoting directly from the Knights of the Quran, rather than the first serve the Quran, we'd understand why that was.

Ladies and gentlemen, if you just take a survey of how many wars there are in the world today, major conflicts there are 25 if you remove all those that involve Islam in some way, you are left with four

something about Islam and perhaps we should really be asking the question on the order paper is does Islam threaten the West finishing and it depends what kind of Western what when I go down the street and I see a woman wearing a book it discomforts me it discomforts me not because I'm some sort of insane

it discomforts me because it challenges what I think the West should be. It discomforts me then when I see

I hear the sound of Emily Pankhurst turning in his reign.

We have a decision to make, what kind of Europe do you want? And if you want to know whether Islam is a threat, then read the books yourself and come to your own conclusion. And do not let people who represent the minority of Russia with respect from from influencing you undo

opposition to the motion.

Opposition speech?

Yeah, please state your name your college no more than a bit on technical support.

To say that

as much as 16 is

taking the point of Christ and setting the price and the persecution, the discrimination and security

that is a massive red flag.

extension of the motion.

Anyway,

I would urge to abstain from this debate, as actually I don't believe it's a debate at all,

to members of the opposition coming and speaking immaculately telling us what most of the people in this house already knew, in that, you know, Islamic fundamentalism is a threat to the west, Israel is not a threat to the west, we've then had the proposition with, you know, really an impossible task to get an attack about most people in the general will have come with the explicit intention of voting against regardless of what has been said by the proposition. So we've had the second speaker give really quite a good attempt to answer the question. And I sort of say, and, you know, whatever.

Then how to report that the late Mr. Ghosh

Yeah, I really definitely

doesn't make any difference whatsoever.

speeches from the floor?

Opposition?

Yes.

I think it's important to actually bring some fairly neutral, this neutral approach.

In, I think it's about

the Muslim, the Muslim,

ran out of room in the Middle East, they take

policy by part of a military conquest, and partly by the National set by the other side, as far as approach of just just moving into the bits that were provided to the lab, taking it over, and announcing that it was a great backing was a weapon, great tax on everybody who wasn't it was, but they got out from that. So they invited

a few 100 years to digests. And then they got beaten, they got very glad to be to trot to our show, showing them a set of robotic companies.

And then,

but that was a very, very long time ago. So I think judging Islam by that will be listed on there. But I think it's also important to judge it slow by things that he's done slightly more recently,

when the Ottoman Empire etc. But it is to

realize why that executive, please do because the families and the Jewish families that work. Bob Ross charges, costs jobs without inflation. You wouldn't take him in that several billions of dollars

to fund your extravagant lifestyle.

Don't misuse the history report. These Jews also went to severe Protestant Amsterdam, for the same reason is that they will use

They brought their money with them. And the Catholic Spain Oh, shut them out because they have they have the money. They have the silver coming in from South America. So they produce money and nobody.

The opposition, you sir.

The second speaker, I appreciate this witty remark that the West is characterized by secularism. And it really is an astute comment that secularism and religion don't really seem to go together.

But I can't really see how that is much grounds for debate. However, one of the previous house speakers raised an interesting point that 21 out of the 25 current conflicts involve Islam in some way. And he's right, that really should make us ask a question. It should ask make us ask, why does the West have this irrational fear of Islam? Yes, I will agree that fundamental fundamentalism, extremism is bad. fanaticism is bad. I believe that any religion that persecutes other singers, because they are different to who they are another religion, that should be questioned. And that's why we should probably have a debate on the Crusades. That's probably why we should have a debate on

some of the parts of other Bibles. Now, the speaker for the proposition suggested that there are 15 million Jews in the world because the Jews do not proselytize. Well, there are a billion Muslims in the world because the Muslims do. I believe that Buddhism is one of the I'm sorry, it's my number off.

The point of the story, well, I have to point out there how many Buddhists in the world, um, I have not met too many Buddhists proselytizing, but by the same token, this summer I met a lovely Mormon fellow, his role in his church was to organize us to go out to Russia, to Middle East Turkey, and to problematize Mormonism, so maybe we should be addressing isn't Mormonism a threats to the east?

from the floor, and abstentions, the motion

doesn't matter.

I think this may be called.

And this is the point I needed to make really early on, because a lot of debate went on without discussing

Islam, its beliefs with religion, and whatever it says are, and Muslim countries where Muslims live, but they don't call themselves Islamic Republic or whatever. So like Iraq was about this country, secular socialists. When the US invaded Iraq, Afghanistan, the Taliban have some radical Islam, this idea is

supposed to be involved.

So when you ask him to some and five,

it's a political issue. But you're saying it's again,

it is not. I mean, even if there are Muslims living there it is, it is a country, which is democracy. So you really need to make the point clear about what is a country where Muslims live, probably in a majority or minority or whatever. And what is that Islamic country where they say, Islam is a religion, and we are going to follow the tenets of Islam. And on the basis of that, if they do something that you do not agree with that then you can, I guess all the countries that you mentioned mentioned Turkey, again, Turkish democracy is not

Islam.

So I think you're really mixing everything together and

closing the case for the proposition, Mr. Ross, Jessie.

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you all very much for coming. First of all, we raised money interesting.

One of our thoughts on which I must admit I've been struggling to follow. I'd also like to thank the gentleman over there for suggesting Turkey as my next holiday destination.

Ladies and gentlemen, many of you would be surprised to see me today on this side of the chamber. Given that I for my entire life have grown up in a rather religious Muslim family. I've read the Quran first aged,

everywhere the Met Raj, one of the most important prayers in Islam in my pocket every day, I've grown up with Islam, ever since I was a little boy. And to top it all off, for 19 years now, I've been a citizen of the Islamic Republic of Iran. I've had the experience of knowing what Islam can do in the spiritual and personal sense both at home, and also its impact in text a political life in countries where Islam is the domination political paradigm. Now, I've understood the statement that goes on with Islam. I've appreciated the oppression that many people face there. And it was initially wary of debating against the religious and belief system that I've grown up with my entire

life. And but then eventually, as I fought this motion, more and more, I realized that actually to protect the true nature of Islam, the true philosophy, some might argue that I had no choice other than to speak for the proposition. And I'm going to go in our frame of argument, which many of you may not agree with. But I hope to show you how it will make sense. And I hope by the end of my speech, you will come onto my side of thinking and eventually vote for the proposition. Firstly, I'd like to define what we're going to classify Islam as we've already defined the West, and we've had many definitions, and I'm not sure there's too much controversy over that. But I'd like to define

Islam as several things. Islam first and foremost is the religious beliefs and the philosophy that govern over a billion people in this world. And that believes, and it would be stupid, frankly, for me to argue against that. There are so many examples where we've seen that that can potentially work peacefully. Sufi ism, for example, is one of the most prime examples where the true nature of Islamic philosophy on its own can work and can be easily integrated with today's society. And in actual fact, there are millions of Muslims all over the world who do follow Islam piecemeal. That's my second point. Islam can also be classified as the community of people who follow that religion.

There is the Islamic world, for example, those who constitute or consider themselves to be Muslims. And I'm not going to again, argue against this. And I think this notion to argue for or against that is to miss the main points in this debate, to argue against it would be to argue against millions of moderate Muslims, some of which are sitting directly, opposite men are integrated beautifully and peacefully with society. But the problem that we have and the reason why we would even consider that to be a major problem in today's day and age, ladies and gentlemen, is because we have a mass media, that whatever they are requesting the view of Muslims tends to be dominated by one Nutter who wasn't

put on his left hand. To be perfectly honest, you never really see these people, it's highly unlikely that my next swap at the mahalo is going to be with Cambridge University society, Al Qaeda girls drinking.

And as far as you know, I can't imagine that'll be particularly lively. Although I must admit, we could probably happily go off later that night training to partake in the most intense game because the possible

Ladies and gentlemen, I am not going to argue against the religion or the Scripture, to do so would be to argue that because Christianity 600 years ago, caused so many wars and crusades, that the Bible that Jesus the Christian view of the world, our inherent threat to the west, they are not. That is quite simply true. The reason why there are threats 100 years ago, is due to the institutions in place at the time. And this is that argument that I wish to pursue for the proposition today. I wish to argue that Islam as a political movement, as a movement which chooses to interfere with the day to day governing of people, rather than the realms of spiritual and

personal enrichment that is the threats of the West. today. I'm going to argue that Islamification that is the phrase that I will try to use to distinguish the two is the threat to the west today. Now, the opposition will try and argue but Islamification isn't really Islam. Islam was never really intended to impinge on the day to day political and governing lives of people. It was meant to enrich their personal and social life. But I would argue, despite the fact that many of these sects we've mentioned, for example, in Saudi Arabia, the Taliban, the Islamic Republic of Iran say though they do augment Islam in a way that it was not intended by the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him

and his followers. What it still means is there are millions of people around the

To take this to the eighth law, and therefore it is perfectly legitimate, consider this and aspects of Islam. And Islamic Republic's in themselves are contradictory in nature. Many of them go against the values of the Quran, but they impinge on people's rights and sort of democratic abilities and their inherent human rights. This is when we wish to appreciate a new radical form of Islam, it may not be an idealized form, but it is a legitimate form of Islam. I'm going to now argue, which I hope will be the easiest point to my case is to argue how those institutions aren't a threat to the west. This I feel is the most obvious point we can recall many different aspects of the news, for example,

the impingements of the rights of women of homosexuals of children, the lack of the expression of, of human rights, the impingement in many aspects on liberal democracy. For example, even in the UK, though he's not with us today initially was planted the former head of the Muslim Council of Britain, Dr. Dr. Berry advocated at one point that Britain should try to look into the possibility of using arranged marriages. This simply, I believe, is not compatible with a view of a liberal democracy that we have in this country. The whole point of liberal democracy is to enable people to separate their own views and to live their own enrich lives. And I believe, ladies and gentlemen,

that religion, Islam, Christianity, Judaism, whatever has no place in that statement. I believe that politicized politicalization of religion is the inherent threat of the West, because it depends on those values, which we hold most dear by living in this country, though.

I'm going to try and start point later. This is the point that I want to address right at the very end, why we have to address that point. The other major point I was raised in terms of the International world as a country, which many people consider to be the greatest threat to the west right now. And that is my own country, the Islamic Republic of Iran. I have seen this country and my family immediately has seen this country transformed from what was 30 years ago, a very prosperous, inclusive, progressive state that within 10 years was transformed by a movement claiming to be under the facade of Islam, and therefore Islamic Republic into one that oppresses people into one that

puts an illegitimate ruler to downgrade the human rights of its citizens, and one that attacks many nations verbally and threateningly across the world. And as for the argument of the opposition, but before also the opposition about how apparently our world has actually enriched society and the Western world. In actual fact, in the second invasion of the Persian Empire, under the Arabs, the Arabs undertook huge amounts of book Burning Man claiming much of Arabian civilization and discovered on their own tenure, to suggest that the Arabic world or the Islamic world was peaceful in that regard. The world is, frankly, a little bit insulting that I find

Yes. So very quickly, the embassy to fire me deployment in

India,

version, the Arab cities Nice.

Nice and gentle. Thank you.

So I've tried to convince you that political Islam is an inherent threat to the west. Now, many of you may consider why that's an important thing. Surely, if you separate political Islam from the ideals, then you don't have a problem? Well, sadly, I don't think that's true. What have you seen, for example, Prince Makarov influencing more Islamic sects around the world than any other institution? No, thank you. And as a result has more of an influence on what people perceive to be the true Islam, whether we like it or not. Despite the irony of it, Islamification of the philosophy of Islam is taking paves Islamification of Muslims and the supporters of Islam is taking place. And

the problem we have in our policies today, ladies and gentlemen, is we chose to ignore these problems. We've chosen to simply accept that they are completely distinct from us. Thank you that extremism is not our problem is a completely different group of people. But we ladies and gentlemen need to stop shying away from this problem and need to stop ignoring it. The Quran fundamentally states that one must obey the laws and the values of the nation with which you reside. All this talk we had of the oppression of people in nations because their views on their beliefs aren't necessarily unhealed isn't exactly true. Given the Quran states you must obey the laws of that

nation. If every Muslim I tell you that no thank you. Tomorrow stood proudly and acknowledge the fact the threat that Islamification political Islamification pose to Western liberal democracy. Do we honestly feel that this debate will be taking place if we solve that every month?

Today accepting that Islam as a political force was a threat to the west, irrespective of whether the religion or the Father God, I honestly do not believe we've seen this debate. That may be difficult. Thank you. It may be hard to stomach and confusing. But I will not ask you to consider proposing this motion if he did not feel that it would be essential for the long term health of Islam philosophy and its followers to accept the distinction that needs to be made between the involvement of Islam in the state and the role of Islam into people's day to day lives. So ladies and gentlemen, I urge you to vote for human rights to vote for gender equality for peace, progress

change. I urge you to vote for Islamic philosophy. I urge you to vote for those who follow Islam peacefully and moderately. But I beg you, ladies and gentlemen, to vote against the political nature of Islam, the political implementation of Islam, I urge you to vote against Islamification. I urge you to vote for the proposition. Thank you.

Closing the case for the opposition. Mr.

Lucey.

Hello, greetings. I'm your friendly neighborhood Islamist.

I was a bit late coming from London today. But you know, the queue of infidels to behead was running longer than usual.

Now, is getting much more salient points. We've heard this very interesting discussion. I think you can break it down to this. The people that came after me who weren't husband the proposition?

They were viewed as the allegation, these are not true Muslims, or they represent some fringe element of Islam. Well, I can I'm going to be a little controversial, and if anyone has seen me on, on video and so on, not so much. But

the debates I've had, I've debated secularism, atheism, I've changed my I have a portion of a political philosophy, and I am a convert to Islam from Portuguese descent. One contention as you shouldn't call it, Sam explained that there is Portugal dare to call it Iberian Peninsula. Damn Spanish anyway, elements

or maybe some anyway. Now, essentially, this, I believe in the Sharia. I believe in orthodox Islam for 1500 years, I believe in all the elements that all the that is unpopular that you've seen, but I'd like to explain that there is a big, big misunderstanding, I'm going to be very antisocial by an Islamist, after all, and I'm gonna have to not take people's points that I've got a lot of things I want to refute. And

basically, the organization, I was part of does a lot of debating, on the point that in last year, December the 10th, on my organization invited Steven gash for a debate on his suffocation of Britain myth or reality. He pulled out a few days before that, no, sorry. Sorry.

You can just afterwards afterwards.

Anyway.

Now, he said, I want to ask the point. He said that again. He said that the West Center by democracy, so wherever the people choose is correct. So if the people choose to massacre a minority population, let's say the Jews, then it should be correct. According to the criteria of Stephen gash, no doubt, perhaps this will allow him in the future to discharge some agenda that he might have against the Muslim population in other Semitic religion, which is the same kind of more system. In fact, virtually identical law system to the Jewish faith is

now also they said that Muslim women only got the vote 100 years ago, while in Islam 1005 years ago, the prophet Mohammed requested the Pledge of Allegiance from women and men, and that's in the text. And also the other point is Saudi Arabia is an Islamic State. Are you kidding me? It is a monarchy, and is a monarchy they? Everyone knows that interest banking is forbidden in Islam, but yet Saudi Arabia has interest banking, it applies the Sharia for stealing on poor people, of which Islam says and there is strict, heady fondness that if a person is poor, you can't punish them for stealing. It is the fault of state they should have provided, but instead of every punch all the poor people and

the rich side

Family go away for free. They don't get touched. They have legal immunity. That is not Islam. The only state that you can see, which would be a stomach is a caliphate. The Caliphate is the Islamic model. There is no Caliphate for eight years. So we can't say which which model of state is Islamic, even the Shias believe in a caliphate state, although they have different criterias. Who can be that Kelly? Iran is a model based on Plato's Republic, where the philosopher ruler with Ayatollah Khomeini fancied himself as the philosopher who knows better would like to look like as they call it, and it also has the same structure as the British system with two houses of parliament. And of

course, a supreme leader, although I don't think the queen is respected anymore.

These are that doesn't give Muslims rights. Well, I like to call let's dig in text. Let's not deal with what I say. And of course, Stephen gash, I'm aligned Muslim. So I'm going to do yes, there he goes.

So my exit from the film kingdom of heaven was that's a Sarason lies. Anyway, the prophet Mohammed Salim said, the prophet Mohammed said in not in the book of Hadees, he said, that whoever oppresses a person who is under covenant, a non Muslim and living in Islamic State, or oppresses him or impose on him something more than he can afford, or humiliates him, or takes anything from him without his consent, I will oppose him on a day of judgment. The Prophet Muhammad also said that anyone that harms a demean has harmed me. Yeah, and the word dim, it means a person under contract, it is no different to the Rousseau Ian says and contract whereby the state is under contract with a citizen

to provide minimum protection. Now, no, sorry. Now I can now I'm totally happy to debate this entire subject on what the text actually says, including when the second monster passed. Kill investment you find them, let's call the entire Sora entire sutra says about those polytheists who were in an alliance or not Alliance, a agreement with the Muslims for a neutral non aggression, they broke the agreement. So then so forth, what did the what the cons reveal itself said when one day versus one of the months are over, or this agreement was over, then attack these people, but the problem and it also said that you don't attack the women, the children and the man who's telling them this is a

text I'm sorry, my friend. We live in a free state where you can express do not impinge upon my freedom to express myself.

Okay.

He says, why don't why don't we see Muslim challenging these extremists that come on media on TV and we held a debate, we invited the BNP to criticize Islam on a public platform must have the US disgruntlement with this and we bet all the meat organizations Come Come see come see Muslims giving a free platform to the BNP is one of most audibly ardent detractors on most artists

I'm talking about the BNP yes

anyway

we bet the BBC Channel Four we beg ITV we've every media outlet we could find to come cover this will show you Muslims supporting free speech. It wasn't newspaper they said wasn't newsletter, but and in child responses not Oh suddenly their rights front door. He's got he's got speed though, according to what he admitted in public isn't fun mfr providing him protection. Why? Because he is the darling of the media, he gives us the socialism that makes you want to buy a newspaper, a Daily Mail with a sign or whatever. Right. And this is the problem that we Muslims who did our best to try to display action showing that we support open debate which is an Islamic concept by the way.

This This was not allowed to be shown by the media and that's why you don't see Muslims opposing unenchanted because the media will not show you this to you.

Talking about the BMP

Excuse me, Mr. Ghosh. He has the floor. Please respect our rules. If not, we have to escort you out. Please. I understand the truth.

10 minutes to speak is now Mr. I'm Lucy's

To speak, he has 10 minutes to speak. Please respect us. I understand how you feel. But again, we run by rules. This is a debating society, please adhere to the rules. Thank you, Tom. Okay. Anyway,

West.

Anyway, now on to secularism, you know, is religion afraid to secularism? I'll tell you this. I think secularism

Okay, this is supposed to be

Excuse me, excuse me. We have rules. Mr. gash, was informed by those rules. We have to follow this. This is what democracy is about. This is what freedom is about. Mr. Allen deluzy has the floor. He's entitled to complete his statement and to take any points of information that he deigns to accept or to reject. Please respect those rights. I know, this is a contentious debate. But again, we're not going to finish this debate on time, unless we adhere to these rules. And that is Mr. Allen, Lizzy, and please, thank you so

much. I wish you can't eat Come back in. I was silent when he was first speaking. And I wanted to use this point of time to rebut. And of course, you know, there's so much to discuss. But secularism itself very interesting enough and you want to read the history of secularism borrowed, some main proponents of its of its social theories from religion is dependent on religion, for the issue of equality, equality was the final came from a Judeo Christian tradition that will equal we are all we're all just a matter or human beings are so fine, but some humans more intelligent others, some are stronger than others. Some come from in a more wealthy families or, or have better genes or what

have you. Yeah, Plato in his Republic says continually that we're not equal human beings are not equal. And so

it is exclusively secularism and religion.

secularism depends on religion, to give it as values, then secularism is vacuous and empty without religion.

Also free will, free will free will where this concept come from. If you are materialist, you're more likely given the deterministic universe not in a capacity for some intrinsic capacity for human beings to have a free will and determined by external environmental genetic factors. Also the morality system, which let's face it, I think across the board, every historian missed that was borrowed from Christianity. In fact, john Locke communities people were Christians, john Locke was a practicing Christian, a very devout is one and even wrote a book on the reasonableness of Christianity. JOHN Locke, that is a true point. What does rationality bring you devoid of different

religion? You get utilitarianism, Bentham and mill both discussed how it was justified for imperialism of the kind of lesser lesser civilized peoples of the world, yet you can read it, this is the White Man's Burden is as it was called. Now this is what secularism needs religion to rein it back its materialistic tendencies, nationalism has caused more wars and more death and suffering in the last 100 years the religion has in the last 500 years. nationalism is the new sectarian divide. Well, why is it Why is it that a human being in in, in, for example, Maggie McCann, she had blond hair, blue eyed woman, why is it that she was more important than the hundreds of dead Iraqi, female

children and so on, that is not his nationalism that separates us from looking at each other as one holistic humanity, humanity. nationalism is the is the true frit. And if you if you were to say that the West is a base or only on nationalism, then maybe Islam is against the West, but it is not because I've seen in the West and I've read from the political philosophers in the West, a desire to improve humanity, which will not be stuck with any one particular dogma that the West currently adopts. And now we have to preserve it against against the tide of change. The West has always been about change, we should embrace change. I'm not saying to establish Sharia in the UK. In fact, I

would say that the the Islam as Muslims are our duty is to be mainly to spread Islam is to be models of justice. The best way the best way for me to spread Islam to you guys, is that I go to the Muslim countries and make all countries a model of justice such that you see that we are an enlightened and civilized

nation and civilization is

This is the point. I will say this, that the West itself is not even entirely secular. If you go to national secular society website, you see them constantly bemoaning how unsettling the West is. In fact, I doubt you can find a country in the West that secularists are totally happy with. So in that sense, if the western entirely secular, then where is the secularism that is enemy to religion that is causing us not to be afraid that was in the first place doesn't exist? All right, also, I think, and I think finally, to kind of wrap up my point.

What you do see what you do see in the world is what was stated, this is terrorism, all these actions that you're seeing, you see stated by the people, these extreme numbers like Osama bin Laden, thank you, you see, by the CIA themselves, the the the head of CIA reporters, but the main factor where the main factor, or almost the the sole determining factor of terrorism occurring in the West is foreign policy and not ideology. In fact, something on him sort of anonymous himself said that he doesn't care about Western freedoms, he cares about the western designs in the Muslim world, the supporting of various regimes, like Saudi Arabia aside, Milan is upset with America for

supporting the dictatorship of Saudi Arabia. Now, some a lot of methodology is incorrect, because he advocates killing human beings. Right? So wait, wait. But I would say I would say that song builiding is a bigger believer in democracy than us. You know why? Because somebody truly believes he truly believes that the government of the West that does these attacks and bombings and killings of civilians truly represents you guys. So he blames you guys. But we will know better. We all know that governments in the West unfortunately, are not fully democratic. They don't represent the peoples and that we are unfortunately dragged into wars, not of our own choosing. And our Lastly,

say, and I'll also say that, that if you vote for the for the proposition, if you vote for people like Steven gash and other other people who discuss their points, you will know you're supporting nothing different than just kept Ahab's Moby Dick in the search for an enemy in his in his troubled times. Thank you.

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for attending this very controversial, very contentious debate. As you can see, there. There is a lot to cover this evening. And if you could, before we end the debate, I just want to have our entertainments officer put out a few brief announcements

before I do first, thank you again for coming. And it'd be You have the floor.

Hi guys. Just a couple of quick announcements. Tomorrow night we have an open mic night. We've got a late start at 10.8 Okay, see if I can come back and Saturday night we have a silent disco in the chamber.

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much is through that door knows who the other abstentions down the middle and I'm good night