The Descriptions of Jannah & Jahannam #8 – The Eternality of Heaven & Hell

Yasir Qadhi


Channel: Yasir Qadhi


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Episode Notes

Inlcuding Ibn Taymiyyah’s Views


AI: Summary © The transcript discusses various topics related to the origin of fear, the "hamster" concept in the Bible, and the "monster" belief in the world. The speakers provide examples of evidence of various belief groups and their claims to stop the removal of gender from religion. They also discuss the controversial position of Jahanna's views on women and men, and the "monster" and "monster" views on theering of the mainstream. The transcript provides context and examples for further research.
Transcript ©
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Mina shavon hongji

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We're in

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Do you want a

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woman to do?

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Salam Alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh al hamdu Lillah wa Salatu was Salam ala rasulillah. Today we have a very interesting topic. It is a topic that has

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a lot of discussion online and people talk about it quite a lot. That is something that has very profound implications in our belief of the ark era. And that is the question about the eternality of heaven and hell. Now, of course, we're doing this series about jahannam. But today, we're going to actually talk overall about the eternality of both Heaven and Hell, and the mainstream belief that Muslims have that agenda and jahannam or permanent, they are forever, and the fact that gender and gender are permanent and they shall forever exist to infinity, there is no end to them. This is of course, almost universally believed by all Muslim theologians, all Muslim groups. So why did

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discussion because there have been some solitary voices and in particular, one of the most famous scholars that I mentioned all the time, and that is shareholders Namibian Tamia, Rahim, Allah tada and also his students who are actually discussed this issue, and it has been alleged that they hold opinions that are different than the mainstream. And so today Sharla will discuss the mainstream belief and then also the belief of Evan Tamia and developed by him. And as I said, that even though this is a series about jahannam, today's lecture, we will actually take a step back and do agenda and jahannam because the evidences are really the same. Generally speaking, when Allah mentions

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gender, he mentions Johanna, as well and the tonality is also mentioned and referenced together. The Koran appears to be rather explicit that gender and jahannam are going to be eternal. In fact, there are so many evidences that they need to be put into different categories. So the first series of evidences is the term Hollywood or Hollywood that the term Hollywood or Hollywood that is used to describe the gender and the people of gender, the term hollywood, hollywood NFL, Hollywood, the term Hollywood a moment as for honey, the famous linguist he says that this word indicates that the subject or the topic that we're talking about there the the the object of the verb it shall last

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forever it will be as is uncorrupted nothing will come to change it so that's what Hollywood or Hollywood means that of course that's why the name hot it it's an optimistic term long life. That's what the term Khalid Abdullah what he called it means and Allah subhanho wa Taala mentions the term Hollywood or Hollywood when it comes to gender 39 times and when it comes to jahannam 38 times so a lot describes the people of gender as Harley dealer fee half are lousy who knew that they're going to be there basically for a long period of time or be their permanent these that maybe the term harder to hold should be permanent like the term cottage is 39 times and the whole on for gender and

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38 times for jahannam. For example, when it comes to gender, Allah says inserted silica have the end verse of certain calf in the Latina Amina wamena saw the hottie Canada who Janata for those who lose hula hardy Deen fee ha they shall be in it forever in circle for on verse 15. On a vertical higher on an agenda to hold say that what is better this punishment or the agenda that is the agenda of hold? gender is hold so Allah uses the adjective hold to describe gender Soraka first 34 we do Hello Javi Salam deca yo mood intergender in peace. This is the day of permanent residence daddy coloman hold you never gonna leave Jen so many times in the Quran homefree ha ha the dune they shall be in

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it permanently. Okay, so this is for agenda for jahannam. We said 38 times one time less than than that. Now. Big question here which we're not going to get into. Can we use the number of times a word occurs in the Koran to derive a benefit Can we say for example, that Allah describes gender with 39

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Times called Idina fee and 38 times for jahannam is there some, you know, semi mystical benefit to be derived? That is the topic of another discussion that goes back to Tafseer. And it goes back to what are the sources of fear and the number of times a word occurs in the Quran does that indicate something or not? The majority of our most of our students have shied away or shunned this area and some have dealt into it and that's beyond the scope of today's class. But we said 38 times gentlemen, and of those times with a nice verse 257 that Allah says without cause have been naughty homefree how hardy doin Okay, so that the nesiverse 14 that Allah says, you

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know who now Ron hardy then fee her he shall be caused to enter the fire that he shall be in it permanently. So that a nice adverse 93 pages that will who Johanna Mohali, then fee her so at the top of her 17 would like to have a domino effect at home hardly doing they shall be in jahannam permanently so to tober verse 63 so that a nutshell verse 29, write these down you can look them up yourself. So does that ambia 99 million versus one or 3104 pseudo zakharov 74 sort of hash 17 and over 30 more times that Allah says in the Quran, they shall be in jahannam hardly doing or hardly Dena fee. So this is the first category 39 times and 38 times the term Hadith hold Hollywood are

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mentioned for agenda and jahannam and that is essentially indicating a permanency. The second category is actually believe it or not a subcategory of the first okay. And that is that the term ABA is tacked on to Holly Dean. And ABA means that it is a an emphasis which means forever. So Harley dealer fee halberda, they shall be permanently in it forever, is actually a double affirmation, right? It is an emphases in Arabic called the Tokyo. So when Allah says EBITDA, it adds an emphasis that just harder Dena doesn't have because the term hard it can mean very very, very long and that's why the the person is called harlot because you hope he's going to live a long life

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okay, the implication is permanent obviously. But when you call somebody haunted, you know he's not going to live forever. So how did you know if he had ever done that ever there is an emphasis that it doesn't exist when you don't have it and the term Aveda, it occurs eight times for Jenna and three times for jahannam. So out of those 39 and 38 that eight of them for Jenna hardy Dena fee her Aveda and three times for jahannam hardy Dena fee her Aveda. So this is 11 total that Allah subhana wa tada mentions that gender and jahannam they showed that the people in it shall be dwelling permanently forever. And so there's a double emphases in that. And for example, so at the Harbin

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woman you may be La Jolla Messiah who saw their hand you Catherine who say it were the Hindu Jeanette and as you holiday that he had that Allah says that he showed the cost to enter Jannat and he shall dwell in it hard enough he had a better so you can see the verse 119 that caught a level higher the Yom Yom Yom fall saltiness superhome Lama Janata imitated and how hardy Dena Fie her Aveda once again this notion of being in gender permanently forever. As for jahannam it occurs three times in the Quran only three times in the whole Quran, the term hottie the other day, and you can write these down certain Nisa verse 168 onwards that Allah says in Paducah Johanna Mahal Idina fee,

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her Aveda, sootel Isaiah, verse 64. In the LA Highlander cafe Tina wide lm sorry la hora Dena Fie her abeja until June 1 23. Woman yatse la hora Sula, who are in the LA who narrow Johanna mahadi Dena Fie her Aveda. So, very clearly Allah subhana wa tada mentions the term hardy Dena Fie her and then adds Aveda. So this occurs 11 times in the Quran, it is the second category. The third category are a number of evidences that indicate eternality via other mechanisms. So there are other ways that Allah subhana wa tada mentions eternality and there are a number of them in the Quran. So we're just basically the third is everything else right. So the first is called Athena, the second is

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Abba. The third is basically miscellaneous categories. For example, the indication that the pleasures of Jannah are never ending. There are many verses in the Quran that have different objectives, different adverbs that describe the pleasures of Jannah, as being perpetual, as be consistent and never stopping. For example, pseudo solid, verse 50, for that in the hair that is Karuna mother whom in the fat. This is our blessings in gender. They shall never finish my home enough. They're never going to finish. So we looked at right verse 35

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fukuhara de Ville you have the fruits of gender or permanent and the shades of gender are permanent. So to the Wachau verse 33 that Lamacq to it, what are the pleasures of gender the fruits of gender will never be cut off, and nor shall they be denied or deprived. So these are all blessings of gender that Allah subhanho wa Taala is affirming shall be permanent, they will not stop. And as for jahannam, so again, many different ways to affirm this eternality of them is the fact that they're asking to die, they're asking for death. They're asking the for example, the no book wanna de madico the De Niro book that they call out to the, the guard of gender that have your Lord causes to

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perish. And Allah responds with the angel response or the inner conductor to you shall remain here. Also, many times in the Koran alone negates that they shall ever be taken out. Well, now whom behati Jean I mean, and now sort of the dakara verse 167 they shall never be taken out of the fire of hell. And so if they're not either, verse 37, you need to know and Yahoo, German and naughty mama home behati Gina minha they want to exit the fire of hell, and they shall never exit the fire of health. So defaulted. Verse 35, one lady NACA, Frodo luminary, jahannam Allah Jacobo la Himalaya moved to whether you have a friend who can either be half the people who have rejected a lot, they should

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have the fire of hell, it shall never allow you to bother him, the fire of hell will never stop upon them. So it's always going to be upon them, they shall never die in jahannam, and neither shall the punishment go down. So all of these evidences indicate the perpetual nature of Jen and Johanna. Also we can add here, the ahaadeeth that mentioned eternality of Jen and Johanna, for example, in Sahib, Bahati, the How do you think I was able to hold it or the other one, that our Prophet salallahu it he was sent them said, death shall be brought on the Day of Judgment, like a large RAM, and it shall be placed between heaven and hell, and the people of heaven and the people of hell will be asked, Do

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you know what this is? And the boat show replied, this is death, they should recognize death, it'll come symbolically as an animal and Allah subhana wa tada will then Sacra will cause the this animal to be sacrificed and the people will see the end of death, they will see death itself cease to exist. And so then Allah subhana wa, tada will say, or people of Jenna, who do in from Holland who didn't fall out, or people of now who didn't find out mode, or people of gender and now permanency, permanency, permanency, there will never be any death, death itself will be destroyed, so death will be destroyed. And in the Hadith, also in Sahih, Muslim, I was able to agree that our Prophet

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sallallahu alayhi wa sallam said, As for the people of the fire of hell, the ones who are its inhabitants, they shall neither live nor die, they shall be there permanently. So the notion of permanency is there they shall neither live nor die. And the in another narration in the Muslim in our model, the Allahu taala, and that he narrated that the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wasallam said, the people of Jenna shall enter agenda and the people of the hell shall enter hell, and then a crier will call out that all people have gender, there is no death, and all people have held there is no death, each one shall be in there permanently. And therefore when the people of gender hear this,

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they shall become even happier. And when the people of the hell shall hear this, it will only increase them in their grief. So this is the third series of evidences that various miscellaneous evidences that indicate permanency through the objectives, and especially in gender, the permanency of the fruits of gender and the pleasures of gender. And in jahannam, the permanency of the punishment in the sense that we're going to come to there's a bit of a slight difference here, but it is clear that they shall not be removed from the fire of health, they will be asking to be removed and they will not be removed from the fire of help. For gin in particular, we can add a

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fourth evidence so we said 123 the first evidence we can add for agenda is the famous term. I didn't I didn't at noon Jana to I didn't in the term I didn't always occurs with the term Janet. So Jana to identity and this term across precisely 11 times in the Quran, always associated with the term Janet. So Janet is described as admin. Now what does it mean? So that Saad for example, Allah says Jana to admin prefer to have a blog. These are the gardens of iden that the doors shall open upon them. What does it mean Jana Dryden are all over us for honey says that I then means to remain in one place and to be permanent or firm even more

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vote in the Senate. He mentions that I didn't mean to a farmer to be at one place. And that is why he says, for example, that a buried treasure is called Madden. Because from either because it was buried there and remained there permanently for a long period of time, so it's there, it doesn't move. So it's called Madden. So I then is to be permanent. Now it's very interesting. This term only occurs for the gender it does not occur for Johanna. And this term is, of course, biblical as well, the Garden of Eden we say the gardens of Eden. And of course, this is a biblical term is mentioned in Genesis and then Ezekiel. And also of course, I mean, the term is

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originally Aramaic but of course even before that, we find Akkadian and Sumerian terms that are similar to this that indicate play that indicate fruitfulness or pleasure, that indicate greenery and lush living. And perhaps one can add here therefore, that the ancient Aramaic meaning

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had a connotation of permanency that is pleasurable. And that's why in the Quran iden is only used for the whole for gender. It is not used for jahannam because if the term Ivan only meant permanency, then it should be used for both but the fact that it is exclusive for gender indicates this is a permanency of pleasure. This is a permanency that is something positive. And that's what Allah describes 11 times in the Koran, Gen two I didn't know all of these evidences are very clear that Jenna and jahannam seem to be quite permanent. And this has been the mainstream belief of pretty much all of the scholars of all of the main segments of Islam Sunni Islam, Shia Islam evolved

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isms atheism, you know, if nyesha ism all of them they have this notion that gender and gender are permanent of Well howdy for the great Abu hanifa in the book that is ascribed to him, he did not actually write it, but his students student wrote it and he described it to him and Phil Conoco, he this book mentions that while gender to a narrow mahalo catani latiff nanny evident Jen and jahannam are created, and they shall never perish forever. And I will heart Mr. Rossi said in the famous treaties of early theology ascribed to to him that we found the aroma of all of the lands Hejaz in Iraq and Syria and Yemen that they believed this creed and so he has a few paragraphs and one phrase

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in it, Jenna and now are true, and they are created and they shall never perish life Nia Nia burden and a mama saw boonie writes in his famous creed that I had assumed well Gemma they affirm that Jen and now are created and they shall never cease to exist. The great and the Lucien scholar even has him He says, Jenna is true and now it is true, and the two of them are created and the two of them are permanent, and they shall remain for all of eternity below me higher for no end they shall remain till no end. kulu ha the engine engine BARROWMAN chiminea Helen Islam, woman hora, Jan, who forgot hora Jain in Islam, these aspects and creeds, everybody has agreed, and anybody who disagrees

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with this is no longer considered a Muslim. And the other Andalusian scholar Ibn Abdul Jabbar, he says, I had assumed I believe that heaven and hell are created and they shall never ever perish or never stopped to exist. Now.

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All of this therefore, proves to us deep, mainstream belief that heaven and hell are eternal, who denied this? Has there been any controversy in this regard? There have been few solitary voices of exception, most of them from outside these mainstream groups. And the first of them that we have some information about is the infamous early heretic known as Jim Evans of one who died 128 pages. Oh, by the way, Jim Evans so far was the topic of my master's dissertation in Medina. So I have around 800 pages about Jonathan Swan, I can lecture you until you are bored completely about Jamba Juice or fun. I have a book published in Arabic two volume book about the theological beliefs of

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Jehovah and so forth. And one of these beliefs is that he believed that heaven and hell shall both cease to exist. And this belief was soundly refuted by all later scholars. Everybody criticized him for many beliefs that were non mainstream. And this is one of those beliefs that he claimed gender and gender are going to perish. And his reason is actually very interesting. His reason is that he understood the concept of a law being a woman will act as negating that anything else can also be permanently existing with Allah subhana wa Tada. And he derived this in particular from Greek philosophy for the

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is called neoplatonic thought that has a different mechanism of understanding the attributes of God and this led to the rise of Kalam and all of these other issues that perhaps we will never talk about in these series, but inshallah, as I teach this in other classes that Jonathan Swan, negated the eternality of heaven and hell because he felt that it would compete with God's monotheism, he felt that to claim that heaven in hell would live for would be forever is somehow negating the perfection of Allah azza wa jal being permanent and of course, later scholars around the refuted this misunderstanding because a lot exists of his own, whereas heaven in hell they exist because of

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Allah subhana wa Tada. There is no comparison whatsoever. Also, Heaven and Hell are not pre eternal, there are sempiternal ie heaven and hell have a beginning, they have no end. That is not a laws origin has no beginning and has no end. So there is no comparison at all, between Allah the creator and heaven unhealed, the created there is no heaven what's there is no sorry.

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Mix up between that. And jam is simply incorrect and trying to in his own way, a lot of formulas monotheism, one of his indirect students from the more intensity camp boy that I love. He claimed that heaven in hell would cease to have any movement or actions that people will be immobile forever, because again, the notion comes up, again, beyond the scope of our class, but he of our lecture, but he believed that this would in some ways, impede God's monotheism and impede how we prove the existence of God. So he had this bizarre belief alone in the history of Islam, that heaven in hell would eventually freeze over not not literally freeze over breeze over but symbolically

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meaning that people would just be frozen. That's what I mean here that they would stop moving in heaven and help. So this is about how they, I laugh. Throughout Islamic history, there have been very esoteric movements, for example, the smiley group has its unique understandings of Heaven and Hell, generally don't they don't believe in actual Heaven and Hell, as well. For all the even seen these philosophers as well, they did not quite believe the way that we do at Hall they had their beliefs were very alien to mainstream Islam. And we find certain key figures and thinkers here and there that absorb some of these ideas, and some of them might be respected in other ways. I mean,

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perhaps most famous is the pre modern scholar or I should say late, you know, antiquity I mean, not quite, not quite pre modern, but before our generation, the famous Indian philosopher allama, Iqbal, Allah Muhammad Akbar

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alumnus, but of course, this is not meant to criticize him overall. But this belief of his is simply mistaken, that might he might have had, he'd In fact, did have a lot of positive contributions. And, again, this is not the time to go into alarm as well. But one thing does need to be said about him to praise him is that at a time in an era and an era where many intellectual thinkers became anti religious or became not enthused about Islam, one of the things that we can definitely credit allama Wilde for is to be a philosopher and a thinker of the highest caste and nobility, meaning of the highest socio economic platform, very influential, and also very committed to the faith. And of

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course, his poems, Shaquan abishek, when again, he was criticized for theological reasons, but all of his poems, you know, that he wrote, you can tell that he has a deep, deep, deep seated love of Allah and belief in Allah. And he had a pride in the oma and

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the point that you wrote about under this window. So moving, it moves you to tears, the the point that he writes about when he was in under looser, the kotoba form that he has, and he has a picture of him praying and portobay got permission to pray there. In any case, all of this is so that you don't feel that I'm criticizing him per se, but he did believe he has, for example, in the reconstruction of religious thought in Islam, he has an eye quote, that according to the teachings of the Quran, the egos reemergence brings him a sharp sight whereby he clearly sees his self built faith fast around his neck, Heaven and Hell are states, not localities, this is what he is writing,

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Heaven and Hell are states of the mind, not actual places. Their descriptions in the Quran are visual representations of an inner fact. And he goes on and on. There is no such thing as eternal damnation in Islam. And I have the entire paragraph quoted here. So allama one, you know, May Allah forgive him and reward him for the good that he did, that he was affected by some modern thinkers. I mean, he was obviously a very strong admirer of content others I mean of the German of the German, maybe Hegel as well. I love it but of course studied in Germany and he absorbed Anyway, why am I going down this road to go back to our class here?

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My point is there were certain people that had these beliefs as well not just you know, in early Islam, but also in modern Islam as well. Now

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What do we want to get to for the next 1520 minutes our main talk for today after proving that the Quran and Sunnah and mainstream Sunni belief is the eternality of Heaven and Hell, let us now get to the big question on so many people's minds, what is the belief of Ibn taymiyyah, and Iam? And what is all of this controversy taking place. And again, I began with the caveat that this is a brief lecture Otherwise, this is a topic that I actually have specialized in actually have a section of my dissertation on this and I have given academic lectures about this. And so I am very much familiar with this. But this is all a summary of much more research that is, this is not the place for it.

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the Let's begin by this book of even taymiyah. Okay, this is a book that is titled, or what the element called a different agenda to one now the reputation of those who said that heaven and hell are both going to cease to exist. Now the title is not from a been Tamia. Tamia wrote a treatise, it's actually not that long. The actual book is only this many pages. And even even this actually is half of it is footnotes is literally you can write it in maybe 15 pages. It's a small little treaties. And this is one of his last booklets that he ever wrote. In fact, it might be the very last booklet that he ever wrote. And he mentioned in this book, page 54, that the he strongly

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defends the agenda is eternal, he goes, nobody can deny this, the agenda is eternal. Then he gets to the issue of jahannam. And he says, As for jahannam, there are two well known opinions in the self and highlife. And the controversy over the eternality of gentlemen is well known amongst the top your own, and those after them. And he said that the though I'm going to summarize Of course, he says that what he says that the Quran mentions that the punishments for the people of jahannam will be permanent, he affirms this, right, but he says that jahannam itself has never been claimed to be permanent. So notice he's making a distinction between the people of jahannam. And what is the

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technical difference that the what he is basically arguing is that what the Quran is saying that, Haldane if he had a better that the Quran is saying that they shall be punished in jahannam. His argument, we're going to get to those who actually affirm it or not what not is that as long as there is punishment in jahannam, the people in Johanna will be punished in Johanna. But if there is no Johanna, then obviously the people in janome are not going to be punished in Johanna. And he says that there are a number of narrations of the seller of the Sahaba and Tabby own, that indicate or seem to indicate that jahannam will cease to exist. And he goes that what had occurred, Nikita and

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Omar Rodney mysteries will be heard or what we say then hopefully we'll add him. This notion that jahannam shall cease to exist has been attributed to Mr. Malhotra even Masood Abu hurayrah Abu Salah is the holder of the Allahu anhu and others besides them. And

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he mentioned a number of narrations he said in the Tafseer of ab dibner made that it is narrated that Omar or the loved one who said that if the people of the fire of hell remained in it for as long as the pebbles of a certain land now this is pause your footnote there was a term in Arabic That is called Rommel arlidge the pebbles of the place of adage so you know imagine going to the desert and you find this vast land full of small pebbles right as far as the eye can see how many puddles are there who can possibly count so there is a phrase rumble adage in English we say the sands of the of the of the ocean or the sands of the beach, okay, something like this. So I'm going

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to hop is saying that were they to remain there as many as the sands of that beach, a time would come when they would be taken out of it. Okay, so this is attributed to Mr. Ivanova rhodiola Juan, and it is attributed to other scholars as well as our other Sahaba as well that eventually a time will come when jahannam shall be empty. Nobody's going to be in it. And he mentioned in the Koran sudut another lab Athina fee how all the law within a fee ha harbor they shall remain in it.

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And then he mentioned some have said of his 80 years and some have said a couple of is this much time however much you want to put it a harbor means they shall remain multiples of times but it doesn't mean it turned out in eternality. So the fact that Allah uses a term that indicates long periods of time, Baba is an indication according to some of this have been taboo and also had been Tamia is bringing this up. Also had been Tamia mentioned student hood and this is the crux of his and his students arguments that he didn't if he had

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Madame it is semi water I'll be in Masha Allah book in the Rebecca De Lima you read, they shall remain in jahannam as long as there are heavens and earth unless your Lord wills otherwise and indeed your Lord is capable of anything he wants. Now this is a very interesting verse and it is one of the main evidences of his student epithelium, as we shall come to the fact that Allah subhana wa tada says, In Masha or a book, they shall remain in jahannam. Except if your Lord wills otherwise. And then Allah says in Surah Becca Lima, you read, indeed your Lord can do as he pleases, meaning, if Allah decides to do something else who can stop Allah subhanho wa Taala and also in the Quran, so

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within an arm, we'll make sure to whom Jamie and Yama*a virginica this tactile two minute ins will call earlier omitted ncrr Bennett stem tava alguna de Baltimore Bella has an agenda the agenda order now rumus Welcome hardeen Fei in Masha Allah, so long verse here but Ally's agenda saying that you shall be in jahannam Holly Deena fee ha longtime permanently then Allah says Illa Masha Allah, except if Allah wills otherwise. Okay, so again, two verses in the Quran that seem to indicate a law has the right to

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take people out of Jannah Illa Masha Allah book right Illa Masha Allah that Allah Masha Allah and Allah Masha Allah both of these occur when it comes to the punishment of jahannam and the third Quranic evidence about the term Kaaba, which means multitudes of time frames. Now, in this treaties at the end of this treaties when this in his concluding, he mentioned that some people their evidence is for saying that jahannam is eternal. They say that number one there is Iijima, there is unanimous consensus. Number two, the rules are very clear. And he said measures three and four as well. We're not going to go into all of that. I will try to mention his point of reference here. He

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claims as for Iijima as for the claim of unanimous consensus, now he'd been tainted, by the way it was well known for this that he was highly skeptical of Iijima highly skeptical that there's there's an actual evidence of HMR in the positions that he disagreed with that he would he would quote ismar for positions that he did agree with. And sometimes it would be the case. Sometimes he held positions that were let's just say unique or not that well known. And when somebody would say to him, Well, you've contradicted agema, for example, is famous triple but offer to lots of people that he went against his email, and he showed them that there has never been HTML. And the same goes for

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this issue as well, that he said people have claimed it doesn't mean that it actually existed. So unanimous consensus has been claimed of the eternality of Jana, and even Tamia says that is merely a claim. It doesn't mean it actually existed. And as for the verses he mentioned, the all of these verses holidays

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and all of this, he mentions that all of these verses are true, that as long as there is a hell, they shall remain in hell forever, so forever as long as there is a hell. However, if there is no hell if hell itself is destroyed, if gender was extinguished, those verses are not contradicted. Because those verses mentioned they shall remain in it, if there is no in it, than Allah has not contradicted when there is no in it for them to remain in. If If Allah azza wa jal chooses to extinguish the existence of the people of jahannam, and of Jan them, and it ceases to exist, then the term hardly Dena Fie Hubbard according to me, I'm simply saying right now, by the way, I'm just

00:33:57--> 00:34:38

quoting. So reputations can hold off until I finish the cello harder than if you have a de. So even Timmy is saying all of these verses are legit. And they can apply because they shall remain in it as long as there is an it for them to remain in hope you're someone who's saying here. So the claim that help shall be extinguished, meaning non existence meaning ceasing to exist. It does not contradict any of these verses, according to him. So it's a very ingenious way that it meant me simply takes a step back, it's as if the verses are all being thrown at him. And he simply diversity because they don't apply to me. My position is not applicable here, because I'm not saying that they

00:34:38--> 00:34:59

shall be removed from jahannam or Costa intragenic. I'm not saying that. I'm simply saying that Johanna might cease to exist, and therefore they were in jahannam, as long as forever as long as there was a jahannam for them to exist in. I hope that is clear. And he then says, there is a clear difference between gender and gender.

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Nobody argued the agenda shall cease to exist, none of the libertarian definitely didn't argue that. And he says there are many differences between Jenna and john none of them is that we know for a fact that people will enter agenda without having done any good deeds. For example, children who pass away, for example, there shall be a creation that we'll come to that inshallah when we talk about gender, that Allah will create for gender, and they shall be created right then and there and then cost to enter gender, but nobody shall enter jahannam except those who have earned a lot of anger and have committed evil deeds, so there is a distinction between gender and gender. Also, he

00:35:37--> 00:35:38


00:35:39--> 00:36:22

there are a number of references in the Koran that the pleasures of Jannah shall be permanent or Kuru Hydra mo Villa, for example. But he says that there is no such equivalent of Johanna there is no such equivalent that is shall be permanent and forever. So he mentioned minks makes the distinction that the actual punishments of jahannam again, what he is saying, and again, I mean, others have disagreed with this assessment. So please, the point I'm just mentioning even taymiyah here had been Timmy is saying that when Allah xojo describes the permanency of jahannam, it is not the structure of jahannam. It is the permanency of the people of jahannam being in janam. And so

00:36:22--> 00:37:04

what he is arguing that is true, as long as there is a jahannam, the people of jahannam, shall be permanently in Jannah. But Allah never says that the punishments of jahannam will be forever and ever until no eternity. Allah says the people of jahannam ingen shall be permanently in Johanna and even taymiyah saying, again, you get the point of that technical difference here, right. So unlike the pleasures of Jen that have been said to be permanent, the punishments of jahannam according to Ben Tamia are not described as being permanent forever, for all of infinity. Also, he mentioned that there are some indirect evidences that jahannam shall come to an end for example, we mentioned three

00:37:04--> 00:37:48

Quranic ones, Agha and in their Masha Allah and India, Masha, Arabic, why have that disclaimer? Why have that they shall remain in it forever, unless Allah was otherwise Okay, or they shall remain in it long periods of time, about long periods of time, over and over again. So also even taymiyah mentions that, and this is a very interesting point, he mentioned that Jenna is a manifestation of the mercy of Allah. And jahannam is a manifestation of the eye valve of a law and the two are not the same. Because we know that his mercy supersedes his punishment. We know that his mercy, what's your ad kulesza encompasses all things. We know that his mercy is what is supreme, he is the Rahman

00:37:48--> 00:38:29

and Rahim and none of his names are directly indicative of a permanent state of love. And so he says that heaven should continue as a manifestation of the aroma of the human. But the punishment is a manifestation is manifested in health, which is created to indicate or to demonstrate a loss either, but there's no need to indicate that for all of permanency. So he mentioned he goes back to the concept of all those names and attributes, and he derives a very, very theological point that Allah rahima should be manifested for all of eternity. But why should it be manifested for all of eternity? And then he mentioned a very interesting point, and that is the issue of wisdom. He says,

00:38:29--> 00:39:04

Our last names isn't Hakeem. And Allah does everything with hikma. And so the question arises that what is the wisdom of positing an eternal punishment? So he says, it makes sense to punish somebody in this world for a crime they've done, it makes sense to punish an evil person for the crime that they've done in jahannam, as well, but an eternal punishment that has no end in sight? What is the the what is to be accomplished by that? Right? What is to be gained by all of eternity, you can't even imagine our mind simply blanks out what is to be gained by doing that. And so all of this is basically of the arguments that he uses. Now.

00:39:05--> 00:39:41

This is a brief summary, by the way. And obviously, please, if you want to read the book as in Arabic, by the way, there are a number of articles in English. There's an academic British academic by the name of john Hoover, he has written an article about this issue of Heaven and Hell, you will find this in academic journals. And one of the Muslim professors of Islamic Studies, Mohammed has an Khalid he has written a PhD on this issue, the University of Michigan you can try to find that online as well. Where he goes into this issue been to me as well and I presented at a conference that he hosted and we talked about this a number of times, so you will find in English as well, some

00:39:41--> 00:39:50

literature under Trump's what I'm trying to say. Obviously, Arabic has much more than in English now. Let us now white wine this lecture doubt

00:39:51--> 00:39:59

the question that we need to ask. Did a bill Tamia argue for the temporality of heaven and hell?

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response. For sure, heaven. Even Tamia is on the same position as everybody else, we should exclude this question. Heaven is permanent and eternal. The question arises, what is it in Tommy's position about Johanna, this book,

00:40:18--> 00:41:06

it does not definitively state even taymiyah as saying he believes in this opinion. If it's me, it does not come and say the other position is wrong. And this position is right. What he does, he forcefully presents the possibility, and then he leaves it. He never states that it is his actual opinion, but it is very strongly supported by him. And as somebody who, as you're probably aware, I mean, I am a humble reader who've been telling me for the last 25 years, 30 years, definitely 25 years of my PhD sort of entertain me, I have read many, many dozens of volumes. I'm very familiar with his thought processes with his writings with his style. I love to read his writings I have

00:41:06--> 00:41:09

read, you know, almost all of his writing. So

00:41:10--> 00:42:01

my humble opinion as an avid reader, as somebody who is very intimately familiar with Evan Tamia. I think it is fair to claim that Ibn taymiyyah did hold the position, that hell is not eternal. I think it is fair to make that claim. But he very gently suggested it. He did not argue for it passionately, as is his want for most other positions that he holds. In other words, he's a soft advocate. And perhaps because he understands that he is so alone, perhaps because he is going against what has been deemed to be the consensus, perhaps because the overwhelming explicitness of the other position is something that he understands, however, to claim that he was ambivalent to

00:42:01--> 00:42:30

claim that he didn't know. I think that that is a stretch. And I think that this booklet is indicative of a soft Yes. And, and this is my opinion, again, it's just an opinion, and I know others will disagree with this. And by the way, just FYI, many of the admirers have been Tamia in typical admirer fashion, as I have said many times the modern sort of the movement that claims to take inspiration, even taymiyah, frankly, doesn't really understand much of it. potamia, and

00:42:31--> 00:42:58

they they are simply blind readers, they don't think about me and they definitely don't act the way that he did or try to follow his footsteps. They simply cut and paste and do unto him anyway. So that's why I say they do a disservice to to this great giant. But my point is that in typical follower fashion, many of the modern thinkers of that movement, they negate that a bit me ever wrote this book. And in fact,

00:43:00--> 00:43:41

this editor, his name is Mohammed. Somebody, some hurry. This editor actually has to spend 30 pages or 20 pages, proving that had been tame. He actually wrote the book against many detractors who said, this is a fabrication of forgery a lie. In other words, the followers have been Tamia, many of them, dare I say most of them have created an image of him and Tamia that doesn't actually live up to the real urban Tamia. And so when they come across these types of opinions, the image that they've created clashes with the real urban Tamia. And so what they end up doing is negating even Tamia could have ever held this position. And so they say this is a fabrication or forgery. This is

00:43:41--> 00:43:46

ludicrous. We know you've been telling me how this position because firstly, there's manuscripts of this book. Secondly,

00:43:47--> 00:44:28

his student if no player mentions this booklet, his student and William defends this booklet in his famous this concept in his famous had it at work that he actually quotes from it and he actually defends this issue. And later scholars who followed Ibn taymiyyah or at least portions that had been Tamia, they defend it, or at least they mentioned this position Ebola was here from Yemen. Abraham qurani, great scholar who revived it in a me and his own way. These people are quoting Eben Tamia, and they're saying this is his position. So I think it is very, very simplistic to state that it Tamia did not have a position. On the contrary, I think even Tamia is softly opening and exploring

00:44:28--> 00:44:36

the store and is very sympathetic to this position. But he understands that he is a minority, now it will pay him his student.

00:44:37--> 00:44:51

It is very clear as well, but he absorbed these ideas of even Tamia. And he went much beyond in terms of defending this. And he has a book, which I do believe has been translated I'm not I don't really keep up with translations. He has a book had the other one a level below that.

00:44:53--> 00:44:59

Which is basically a description of gender one of the most authoritative descriptions of gender ever written. This book is

00:45:00--> 00:45:44

He has 40 pages. The book has around 500 pages 40 pages dedicated to this issue of the eternality of jahannam. And he argues like no one else I've ever read, trying to prove that it makes sense for them to be temporary, and that Jan them shall cease to exist. But then at the very end of this 40 pages, he says, if you were to ask me what my opinion is, I would say Allah knows best. And Allah, Allah, Krishna and Katia. In other words, he explicitly advocates, I'm not going to tell you my opinion. He literally says that. He says, Allah knows best and Allah capable of all things. And I think that he understood and he saw because by the way, for those who don't know, it been a me and

00:45:44--> 00:46:05

him were very strongly attacked for this opinion. They were considered to be heretics and deviance and to this day, their critics say, oh, even taymiyah claimed that gender and gender are not judgmental, this is a lie. It's not gender. It's janam. Number two, even Tamia did not definitively claim.

00:46:06--> 00:46:25

Some have argued he was ambivalent, my point is, to be fair, he is a soft advocate, that's my position is a soft advocate, that jahannam not gender jahannam shall cease to exist, it shall simply be completely obliterated. And he has some very interesting notions. Now.

00:46:26--> 00:46:27

What is the conclusion?

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My conclusion is similar to no claims, Allah is capable of all things. And if a lot wants to, he can do this, the Quran does not seem to definitively indicate that jen jahannam is temporal IE, the evidences would very clearly indicate it is eternal. And that is why it has been the mainstream belief of the majority of the oma. But even to me, it does have a point.

00:47:00--> 00:47:38

I, myself have gone back to the earliest if you find this in poverty, you find this in other books as well. Of course, as soon as a doodle mentor has collected many of these, they are there. What am I talking about narrations from this habit and have their own narrations for the Sahaba and tab their own, that clearly indicate that some of them felt that jahannam, only Johanna shall cease to exist, that the people of jahannam shall one day no longer be there. And so it's not as if epidemia is coming completely unscripted. Now you can say the it's not as if some of these are weak. You're right. Maybe they are. But the fact that they have a weakness now what does it mean? It means

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somebody said something at some point in time, and it was accidentally attributed to somebody higher up in the chain. Somebody said it that's what's in the book, right? A week is not this applies to week Hadeeth as well. Somebody definitely said it, right. It's not just you know, are we reliable, hire somebody not just coming out of nowhere and writing this out, somebody said it 234 generations before these great giants, but somewhere along the chain, somebody made a mistake and Miss attributed to someone earlier on to Sahaba to a temporary maybe even to the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam. So the notion of jahannam not being eternal, it is quite clear that a number of

00:48:14--> 00:48:52

Sahaba into your own did in fact, or at least it has been attributed to them. And for sure some of your own held this this notion, so for a bit me to come along and revive that. Rather anomalous opinion. It wasn't mainstream, I don't think we can accuse him of heresy. Also more important than this isn't the opinion it is the methodology to derive the opinion. You see, this is one of the biggest points here. Many of you are aware that I myself have been strongly criticized by certain people for my positions about let's say, yeah, Juju, Mojo, whatever they might be. And these critics, they fail to realize that what is important is the methodology. How do you derive that

00:48:52--> 00:49:37

opinion? Do you derive it based upon the sound methodology for a human to contradict another human is not deviation for urban Tamia to go against Abu hanifa or, or Asuka savani or alella ke is not deviation. What is the methodology that will be Tamia used to drive disposition jams methodology is deviation Why? He took neoplatonic thought he took a Greek philosopher and he said that's more important than the Quran and Sunnah. That is heresy, you are no longer mainstream Muslim. Even taymiyah is going back to the Quran and Sunnah. to derive an opinion that is obscure, that is strange shot that is anomalous, that is unique, but the methodology is to follow the Quran and

00:49:37--> 00:49:59

Sunnah and to derive from the names of a law from the concept of laws that have come up from the earth are from the statements of the Sahaba and Tabby own to derive an opinion that is not heresy. And therefore you may disagree with even taymiyah. You may find it in Damien's position to be, you know, non mainstream, but it is not appropriate to accuse him of heresy.

00:50:00--> 00:50:01

One number two, as we said,

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the max that can be said is that he is a supporter of the opinion and not necessarily an advocate for it. And there's a difference between the two, he's not definitively claiming and that's demonstrated, demonstrated by MLK Him, who basically says, a lot Subhana Allah knows best. And so looking at the evidences, I can, I am ambivalent. And again, I'm not trying to be wishy washy here that I am ambivalent in this regard that I definitely am sympathetic to the arguments advocated by 17 million. But of course, to go against the vast majority of Islamic scholarship is something that causes me to hesitate, because you don't want to be in the smaller cap. That having been said, Dear

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brothers and sisters, in the end of the day, this is a question that it doesn't have any tangible impact in our actual lived lives. And for many people who are struggling, theologically, with the notion of eternal punishment, this belief, and this notion, helps them to cope with this and actually makes them dissolve this this shubha, or this misunderstanding that they might have about the nature of God. And so for some people, even temiz position, which is a very legitimate position is a very strongly well argued position, and he's a mainstream scholar. For some people, even to me, his position might save their EMA in Islam, think about that. And so, let us not politicize this

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opinion, let us put it out there that this is an opinion that has existed, it is opinion that is well argued, it has theological benefits to its to hold as well. But we should if we were to go down this route, The only caveat I have, we should always mention, while there is an opinion, but the mainstream position is so that people should be aware that the mainstream position is that jahannam shall be permanent and forever, but there is a dissenting voice or a number of dissenting voices. And by the way, it wasn't just even Tamia, as we said before was it and qurani and others they, they sympathize with this, but once again, everybody's hesitant to come out and say it definitively. And

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one of the reasons for this hesitancy isn't because they're cowards. It's because the Quran itself says Illa, Masha Allah, Allah Masha Allah book if Allah wills if Allah wills, so they'll call you and says, Well, I'll leave it to Allah and we should do the same if Allah wills so Indeed, Allah azza wa jal has indicated has we can infer from the Quran that Johanna is eternal. But if Allah chooses to do something else, then indeed in the back of our our limo, you read a look and do whatever he pleases, and whatever Allah does, no one can criticize and Allah and mercy and His wisdom and His justice are all infinite. So whatever Allah has decided it will be in the best

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decision and we will know that reality in the next life in this world, we work to attain gender and to save ourselves from jahannam and that's good enough for us inshallah, to Allah will continue this next week. Until then saramonic Morocco to Lahore barakato.