Ask Shaykh YQ #80 – The Fiqh of Terminating Pregnancies (Abortion) in Islam with Dr Hatem el Haj
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Assalamualaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuhu Alhamdulillah wa Salatu was Salam ala rasulillah who Allah Allah He will be here woman while the hammer bag. For today's q&a, I am very honored to be able to host Dr. Hatton Hajj one more time. This is our second time hosting him and a very brief introduction he has asked me to cut down on his introduction. Nonetheless, you should know that Dr. Hartman hedge Alhamdulillah. He is both an MD and a PhD in comparative in Islamic studies from a junan University. He is a practicing pediatrician. He is the former dean of college of Islamic Studies at Mischka and a permanent member of the permanent federal committee of the American Muslim
jurists Association, Dr. Hartman hedges as always, it's a pleasure and an honor to have you on our q&a hamdulillah.
Same here, hamdulillah. So Shana, today, we're going to be talking about an area that is an actual Mashallah lived experience of yours, which is medical practices in light of the Sharia. And I wanted to really discuss some very pertinent and very common questions that Muslims ask. And we'll try to begin chronologically from pre birth all the way up until the issue of very end of life support system. So we're going to go over a number of issues and scenarios beginning from the very beginning, which is the inception of life. And one of the biggest questions that so many people ask in our times, is the Islamic ruling on ending pregnancies or the issue of abortion. And before we
even dive into the fear of ending pregnancies, let us first discuss Shekinah what is the Islamic position on the beginning of life, and the controversy over 40 versus 120. So if you can begin with that, inshallah Tada. And then let's move on to the issue of the controversies over ending pregnancies.
Not from the last one.
Well, I think that they are very related. So it's very proper to start by talking about the beginning of life because it, the ruling of abortion hinges on the concept of the beginning of life or the beginning of human life, if we were to accurately describe it.
So when it comes to the issue of the 40, versus the 120,
the issue has become a little bit more of a controversy nowadays, because we know that embryogenesis pretty much finishes around 40, some days of age, that's 56 days of the gestational age, the way that doctors
measure it, you know, this is extremely important also, because this creates a lot of confusion between the medical terminology and the terminology. When we talk about the age of the pregnancy, in medical terminology, it starts from the first day of the last period before conception, in the terminology that starts from conception. So you'll have two weeks of difference between the medical terminology and the terminology. So when the, when the doctors talk about
four weeks, like a four week old fetus, they, they're talking about the gestational age. So the fetus is actually two weeks not for from a fear perspective, because feck starts from conception, which is, you know, more accurate, you know, conception, but for the doctors, since, this is how they have always measured gestational age, because we they did not know exactly when conception took place. So the doctors always used the last period before conception, and they started counting from the last period before conception. So this is to be remembered because it will be very irrelevant when we talk about the the the ruling of abortion, but essentially, in, in Islam, we we count from
conception. We you know, in medicine that embryogenesis pretty much finishes before found 5657 days of gestation, which is about 4042 days from conception.
is extremely hard for doctors to basically, it is extremely hard for
you know pretty natalensis neonatologist doctors in general obstetricians
to comprehend that is one of the 11 methodologies reported by Bukhari and Muslim and our beloved Mr. Road.
Is he is, is certainly a towering figure in Muslim history like a great fapy and he said that the Prophet sallallahu Sallam and he said southern Missouri, Southern slope, trustworthy, truthful one. So he said that the Prophet sallallahu Sallam said in that other community man, come on man if he wasn't the only urbini oh man not far. sama kuno Allah cotton visitors Alex Americano, Martin Masonic cemetery aerosol in Malak, and
thereby cut him out. So he says, The Prophet sallallahu Sallam said that the creation of one of you would be brought together in the womb of their mother for 40 days in the form of a drop, then for for the days in the form of Hanukkah, which can be translated as toilet or leech, whatever it is, you know, olika culatta blood and then for 40 days in the form of Mandala, which is a chewed lump of flesh.
And then that the angel would be sent down to breathe the spirit into him or sewn into the fetus.
And then it will be commanded regarding formatters to the end of the hotties. Now we have another Hadith that is reported by Muslim from from zifa, which provides a different sort of
narrative.
And it talks about the aims of the sending after 42 days.
So if I'm not Robin not fine as an attorney, or Barona, Yeoman, when 42 days have passed by, then the angel will be sent. And
then the angels who when basically fashion it and create its hearing sight, skin, flesh and bones and bones, and then breeze the soul into it. And that is, I'm sorry, this clip talks to them about the writing of the destinies
after after the the creation of everything, including the bones, now, that you are here these
seem to be conflicting.
Because it you know, and certainly scholars, like no claim, for instance, goes to like, extreme lengths and trying to reconcile between Hobbes and he uses his genius and reconciliation, but does not honestly
you know, it's just not possible. You know, no matter how genius you are to reconcile between those two hobbies, one of us is talking about the creation of bones and have no claim he was just like a very sort of genius idea, he says that it is like a pattern that is made the first time and then it will be sort of executed afterwards. So that you know the first time the angel comes down and makes it creates the bones in the flesh and it is like angels making a pattern and afterwards all of this will take place. Now what compounds all of this is that Allah subhanaw taala and certain amino talks about like a certain sequence. Allah says what it says when I can collect knowledge and sentiments
when Allah Timothy we've created man from an extract of clay, so I'm going to move on to karate McKean. Then we made him into a drop in or we place him as a drop into a firm lodging. So my Filipino Matata, then we made the drop into a clot. So Allah Allah como de
fer here is not like some, so there is no lapse of time here Zen or like, immediately thereafter we made the slot into
the
caught into that lump of slash alakina model and then we made the model into our bones
Obama, Obama met and we covered the wounds with flash Samantha now, who come after some man here indicates some lapse of time between the last phase and the following one and then we made him into a new creation and a layer of your mind, who said that new creation is that human life, you know, so, I really wanted to say that then here, human life starts, so Manchanda, Hakuna, after all of this.
So
the one way to reconcile between the two hobbies is actually to not accept the the sort of the obvious apparent implication of the use of the lab. And then it seems that because of the status of autonomous road II, had,
you know, the harissa zifa took sort of like a secondary
sort of level of importance or that he was I was not
considered to be here.
What, you know, the the default
was always considered to be the default and everybody's trying to reconcile the hubby's have presented, so that it may eventually agree with 11 or so, however, we know also that there are different variations of these dropped 11 episode, and one of them
may have the answer.
So, so, when the Prophet sallallahu Sallam said that the the creation of one of you would be brought together in the womb of their mother, as a drop for 40 days, then it will become a then it will become a halaqa
in a seminar for a seminar duration, and then it becomes a model a two hour lump of flesh for a seminar duration. One of the narrations reported by Muslim says from a akuna Allah petencies Alec misled
then it will become a haka o'clock in that for a seminar duration. So humanism is an uncanny Rahim Allah tala said that everything happens in the first 40 days, because it will become a more it is a much far and then Allah antenna model for a similar duration, but everything is happening. He's Alec in that in that what is that? The 40 days not the womb. So in that refers to the 40 days to the duration, not the place, and that is sort of linguistically sound, because the Prophet sallallahu Sallam said in the Haida community mount poofy but Naomi Urbina Yama, so, one of you will have his creation brought together in the womb of his mother for 40 days, the last thing he mentioned this
not the womb, the 40 days. So, when we say that, then he will be in that
he will be clocked in that for a seminar duration, the seminar duration is not another 40 days, the seminar duration is that it is not far for like a period of time within the 14 days, and then an aka a clot for a duration similar to that of the note five, all within the 14 days, and then it will become a mortal sin within the 14 days. It is extremely hard for anyone
who, you know, it is extremely hard for anyone who practices medicine, to basically accept that the fetus at what time at 119 days from conception, which is 143 days for gestational age is still in the form of a model. Now, someone may say that this is all because of you guys. You try like the people who sort of
it's all sort of modern interpretation of the motiva whoever told you that the motorcar is not like a full blown human being a small human being in the form of a fetus because you know, by 119 days you will have everything you'll have. All the organs will be complete by 56 days and the baby will
have grown and will have fingers and will have toes and will have everything. So people may say, whoever told you that this is not a model? The problem is that the answer to them you know, it is it clearly provides a sequence here, where the bones come after the model, aka lakanal model Varma, then we have created the model or made the model into bones, then we have
basically covered the bones with flesh, then we made him into a new creation. So if you want to respect the apparent implication of sorting, on the apparent meanings of sorting, Norwich are quite obvious. So I'm sorry, certainly we don't, which is quite obvious, you will not be able to reconcile the hobbies of our code. And therefore, the bottom line is, we cannot accept the apparent implication of the government's road, that it will be 40 days, not far, 40 days of aloka, 40 days of motiva, everything happens in the first 40 days. So chef Anna to you raise a very, very deep point. I wish we could discuss this more. But what you have done and of course, you know, I'm very
sympathetic to this. But what you have done is you have taken external evidence that is a real dilemma that is definitive. And that is the evidence of that we know of embryology of the knowledge of the period of gestation, the gestation and the development of the fetus. And you've then looked at the various ahaadeeth. And you have made the G, you have examined these narrations and chosen based upon a knowledge that you know of that is definitive, which version seems to be more authentic than other versions? And, of course we can, that's a very deep discussion, also the discussion, but just wanted to point that out that this is something that one does find throughout our history,
where people are looking at the narrations within a reasonable framework. This is not against this is not embracing modernism of progressivism, this is actually from within the sort of additional Gema that sometimes definitive knowledge, which is outside of narrations is used to then interpret or to even make the gap between various narrations. That's an interesting point here. But the point is that, you know, if you look, I know that this is this was part like part of your PhD thesis, but if you looked at the sort of the thing they have a Razzie also great amounts of
quality or the universal law by Rosie Mayer did not really refute, it did not really claim that conclusive rational evidence will be denied or rejected. He just said that, you know that the rational evidence is not one undifferentiated category. So we will have to divide the rational evidence and figure out what is conclusive or definitive, and what is not. And also the wacky, it's not all conclusive, because there could be, you know, different implications. So we have to divide this into conclusive and non conclusive and we will always favor that conclusive evidence, regardless of whether it was rational, or scripture. Exactly. So in fact, in my PhD, I actually have
a section called urban Tamia is a modified version of the colonial quality. So it's not as if he rejected the entire notion of pottery, evidence is outside of the Quran as sooner rather he had a modified interpretation where he claimed that if there was a definitive or contrary knowledge that is outside of the Quran and Sunnah, that the Quran unauthentic sooner could not and would not contradict that call to evidence, which is a slight modification. So the bottom line before we move on, so we are in agreement therefore, that it is really the 40 day mark, where the spirit is blown in where the rule has blown in and life begins from the Islamic perspective of around the 14th day
of conception. So, based on what I will disagree here, okay, so, what did I So, maybe I misunderstood you then go ahead. No, I agree with you that embryogenesis is completed by 40 days or 42 days, but the hobbyist photographer does not talk about the blowing of the soul into the fetus. Therefore,
you know, the blowing of the soul, I have a little bit of a problem here with the blowing of the soul at 40. Because if we say that the blowing of the soul happens right after the multicar, then we are skipping two important sort of phases here that are mentioned in sort of, you know, one, because it's one of them, you know, and it says for Hakuna Matata environment and we made the lump of this chewed lump of flesh into
Bones then we made the bones into cover to the bones was flesh and thereafter some man Shanahan conagra. Thereafter, we made him into a new creation. So now it is clear for it is clear from the evidence whether it's rational or scriptural evidence that everything happens in 30 days in terms of the genesis of the fetus or the embryo Genesis, but the soul should be breathed into the fetus when it is accepting garbage, carbon in my hand, the carbon basically ready to receive it. And that should happen later after basically the Oregon's have developed enough for the body to be ready to receive the soul. Now, who's making that distinction? I don't know many people making that
distinction. But I you know it Yeah, I just, it is okay for me to do this patchwork, because I am not, I am basically surrounded by imams from both sides. Although this opinion may be a little bit interesting because I am separating between embryogenesis and the breathing of the soul into the fetus.
If we're saying that it is
dropped, clot, chewed a lump of flesh, all within 14 days, I would have a problem believing that the soul would be breezed right after this phase. There are two phases here that we did not count for, that are mentioned in the Qur'an. And then there is a lapse of time, some mansion, an app. And that is when the soul gets breathed into the fetus. Okay, so you are then positing that the embryogenesis takes place after 40 days and the soul is breathing after 120 days? Is that what you're saying?
Yes, which will not be which will sound incoherent? Because then I cannot scripturally prove it because it is not.
If I am denying the heaviness of the apparent implication of the loudness road, and I'm trying to reconcile the apparent implication of the return of the road with the Hadees. And then if to be consistent,
you know, where am I getting the 120 days from for the breathing of the soul? However, there is several emails that have been reported on the breathing of the soul at 120 days. That is it cognitive dissonance to say that I will separate between the two and accept the asthma that is not textually based.
You know, I at this point, this is my what I'm inclined to doing, I would accept that it's math is not textually based, because breathing the soul at 40 days is not consistent with the soul coming into a body that is ready, when does the soul leave the body, if we look at the other end of life, the soul leaves the body when the body is not accepting of it anymore, you know, because of disease because of trauma because of this or that or because of the Divine Decree. But
we should apply this to the beginning as well. And I don't think that the body is ready to accept to the soul so that we can move from simply sentient life in a sense, to human life. Because if we don't jump from vegetative life, to human life, I guess there is a phase in the middle. That's called sentient life, which applies to the fetus before we can say that human life starts. So this is actually very interesting. And you are complicating the plot now. Because as you are aware, this is a relatively unique position. Actually, I don't know of anybody else that has that I've heard I'm sure there are but as you're aware, most people are either the 40 or the 120. And now you're making
a very important distinction, which I find very intriguing is going to take a while for my mind to think through all the implications. But what this does imply is that your affiliate positions then are going to be slightly modified from those who follow the position that the rule has blown it at 40 days versus those who've learned 120 Yeah, interesting. Okay. By the way, before I get to the filter issue, I'm genuinely curious. You are, of course the medical doctor. Is there anything that happens around 120 days that is different in terms of like the biological devices
element of the child, maybe the consciousness or awareness somehow can be detected? Is there something that can ultimately be like us people who are outside of the medical discipline, we can feel a sense of, oh, aha, I see. That's the soul, we can see pre and post soul being blown in anything that can detect that somehow, many things in that neighborhood that happened that could indicate the beginning of human life, including voluntary movements, not reflexive movements. So many studies have shown that there are certain developments that take place during this time,
most notably voluntary movements. And if you ask any pregnant woman, when did you start to feel movements, they will tell you the first month of pregnancy, see, so for me, as you know, she kind of resolder similar for me, that type of evidence is actually it's not, of course, contrary. But it's kind of like a state nurse, you can kind of like, get a little bit of, you know, a hope in that your position might have some basis to it. Because I'm actually very intrigued. It's the first time I've actually heard this position. And it's making a lot of sense to me personally, that we if we distinguish between the development of the embryo, which has clearly taken place where this is, a
DLL is taking place at 40 days, versus the blowing of the ROI, which I've always had a problem with, in the sense of the four hour, I'm not a medical doctor, but still, the notion of the law being blown in at that early stage. didn't settle with me for multiple reasons. But now you come with this interesting distinction. And I find myself very much drawn to it nonetheless. So based on that shift, Hannah, Let's now get to the issue of terminating the pregnancy. with the caveat before we get to the nitty gritty in the harsh realities, with the caveat that there is pretty much a unanimous consensus or I don't like using the word as you might hear, because it's not quite, but
there is the sense of that, whether it is a living or breathing, fetus or not, whether the row has been blown it or not, that there is an element of sanctity to that fetus, and that we should not treated as if it is a vegetable as if it is nothing. So even if the row has not been blown in there is generally feeling within our folk Aha, a discouragement overall. And there is a sanctity of life that is brought in that this is going to be a living human being. So before we get to the issue of when is it Allah was when is it not allowed? I just wanted to put this out there that generally speaking our fuqaha In fact, I've read a number of fatawa that say that, that it is by a Juma not
allowed to abort the fetus, even in the early stages for absolutely no reason. I know that there's not full Decima. But I've read that scholars have said this. So wanted to give that caveat out there now with that overall notion that we respect the sanctity of something that might become life. Now that you've given us this distinction, Can you summarize for us your position about ending pregnancy voluntarily?
Well, I think that there is a lot more strictness nowadays than used to be early on.
And even in the sort of the establishment of
the forest health establishment of Sonia Islam. I think this notion that there is agreement about the prohibition of abortion,
there is, as you said, there is agreement about the sanctity of the fetus, to some extent, certainly, if someone causes abortion to our men, that is a crime.
But is the woman or is the sort of the woman and her husband?
Do they have any right to terminating the pregnancy?
Then, you know, that let's start by talking about the position of the forum as I had in the authorize the view within the forum as
there is a disclaimer here that there is always disagreement within the form of about the view sometimes. But, you know, oftentimes there is disagreement.
So, if we say that they all agreed about the prohibition of abortion after 120 days, because they all agree that the soul is breathed into the fetus at one time at 120 days, so it's natural for them, that it is a crime
to abort the fetus after 120 days. The exception here will be one, which is that
if the mother's life is in danger, then to preserve us or to preserve that
tree
would be sort of what take priority over preserving the branch or this is how they express it. So the mother is the, the mother is basically the tree and then this branch, you cut off the branch to save the tree, if there is a sick branch, he cut off the branch to save the tree. So that our fuqaha do not accept any form of abortion after 120 days, except if it is
sort of if it basically poses a danger to the mother's life. Now, before 40 days,
before 40 days, you will find when it comes to the authorized view and the different mazahub now, because in every in all the mazahub there is internal disagreement. Before 14 days.
The Hon Belize said that you can have abortion upon mutual agreement of the parents before 40 days and left me of the Maliki's, who are the strictest in this regard. Agreed was the embellies
the HANA fees and the shafia in their authorized view, and you could always, you know, how am I Marcia evangelica Sadie, remember Casa de la certainly not well, mmm casati, you know, does not agree to any abortion at any time. And he you know, and the canopy is also some of the canopies also they cite the example of Bible harm, or the eggs of the game burns of the atom. And if the game birds of the hot arm are sacred, and you cannot kill them, you can break the eggs of those sacred game birds of the heart. So this is this example to say, if this is the beginning of human life, then it is sacred, because human life is sacred. But the the, you know, the established view,
according to the latter chapter is and Hana fees, when they mentioned that this agreement to the interim of this agreement was in their mouth, they still confirm that the established if you is that it is permissible in the Hanafi undershelf animals to have abortion all the way up to 120 days upon mutual agreement of the parents. Now, some of them because it sounds a little bit like too hard to accept, some of them say that there must be a good cause. And we agree with them, there must be a good cause. But it is basically the mutual agreement of the parents that will determine if there is a good cause or not. The Hana fees are some of them, who as far as saying that the paternal
sort of agreement is not required. It is the mother's decision, regardless of the father's opinion. That's what some of the hanafy said.
So if we want to fairly and honestly presented the positions within the form of the hip, before we come to that contemporary discourse, and the sort of the Automat of the modern times.
We will say that before 40 days, the majority agreed to, you know, the permissibility of abortion before 40 days, and that would be the authorized position within the Hanafi madhhab. The authorized position within the sharper image lab last year of the Maliki's and the position of the Hanbury Mazda between 40 to 120. That is still the authorized position that it is allowed to have abortion upon mutual agreement of the parents in the Hanafi endosurgery method, even though there is much disagreement internally within the two mothers and then after 120 days, no one would agree. So the Malik is would not approve of expulsion of the semen after it goes inside. Basically the womb they
do not agree with with any form of birth control that is beyond coitus interruptus, which everybody agrees with. Eyes are greatest interrupters, but they don't agree with even the expression of this serum. I'm sorry of this
semen
After intercourse, so that so that's what what the sort of the classical part of this course is about nowadays, part of it is is warranted, you know, because nowadays with our developed understanding of embryogenesis even though they had the same sort of concerns before, because they would see the fetus coming out after 80 days completely formed like complete human being. So, they have the same concerns on and you know, I wrote something about this and there is like, so much that they question, you know, so, many of the scholars have questioned it. But anyway, nowadays people have become stricter.
And they say that, you know, the madama for, for instance, difficut eslami. And the majority of Muslim scholars nowadays, they sort of accepted the Hanbury position that it is okay in the first 14 days only, because many of the scholars have accepted the fact that the soul gets sort of breezed into the fetus at 40 days, and because many of the scholars still believe that it is still a drop for 40 days, so it is okay, basically to have abortion within the first 40 days, between 40 to 120 days, and the old presume that you have some cause, you know, for doing it, they all presume that you have a cause for it. But between 40 to 120 days, the cause must be a very valid cause a very
pressing cause such as
rape. According to some of the material, they consider this to be a valid cost to have abortion between 40 and 120 days, such as a deformity that is incompatible with sort of normal life, incompatible with sort of dignified life.
And when we talk about dignified life, the you know, the scholars of mathematical Islami, or the International Islamic, the Islamic assembly that belongs to the Muslim World League, they said that if his life when the bad and cause of grief for himself and his parents, then it is allowable to terminate the pregnancy between 40 and 120 days, severe congenital diseases or deformities, and things of that nature.
And then they say that after 120 days, as we said before, it is never permissible, except if the mother's life is in danger. That is the mother in this course. I accept to this, despite the fact that this does not really reflect
the classical discourse, this classical discourse was more permissive than this when it comes to abortion. But I accepted the modern discourse because of our understanding of embryogenesis and so on.
So this is what I believe in.
So chef and a number of points are raised here. Firstly, if I'm not mistaken, the Hanafi Didn't they not have the 120 they said as long as the features aren't formed, so they have a different caveat right man, manometer halaqa Genie or something of this nature, so Wouldn't that bring it back?
Just to be pedantic, so that we don't miss subscribe to the honeybees.
Yes, but but but the majority of the HANA fees do not necessarily make this condition. They talk about 120 days, the permissibility within the 120 days without making this condition some of the canopies well make different conditions some of the canopies are not accepted the whole thing some of the canopies are not accepted the permissibility of abortion to begin with at any time. And this is also by the way even to me his position he's very strict on this regard as well that he does not view abortion so he's actually not following the May the mainstream humbly view in this regard. But the point being now so a number of questions there I shall kinda so we so therefore, what you said
was to reiterate, up until 40 days from conception, not from the last, you know, the period, but the actual conception, up until 40 days, any type of reasonable excuse, let's say, and if you look at the lists given generally speaking, if, if the lady says I'm too tired to take care of another child, or you know, I don't have help in the house, and this is going to be an issue for me or I have to drop the kids. I already have three kids etc. Generally speaking,
If the fatawa that are there, they seem to suggest within the 40 days, this would be permissible. However, if she or they, the husband feels that we cannot afford the child, then it would never be allowed because obviously this is now a theological issue that you are infringing on the rights of Allah subhana wa tada and impeding the generosity of Allah with your misconception. So that is,
would you agree with that summary, chef? No, for the first 40 days?
Yes, I would agree with that summary. But I just wanted to add also to the Hanafi issue that when the Hanafi is talked about mela Miata handler, they explain this to be the breathing of the soul. Because even if not Dean says, and it is obvious that that
that Genesis happens before this happens before this time, but they meant the breathing of the soul. So even mathematically, the Hanafi is mentioned that they disagreed over what this mean, whether it means the embryogenesis or the installment, personhood or whatever. Okay, valid, okay, installment. But I agree with your sort of depiction of the sort of first 40 days, okay.
There's a good reason that is not the fear of poverty, then it is permissive. Now, from 40 days to 120 days, you mentioned severe congenital to disease or a pregnancy that is really, outside of marriage is going to be problematic in that regard. Are these the only reasons that you would allow? Or are there other mobile or other reasons that would be permissible during this timeframe? Yeah, I'm the scholars who allow that for in the case of rape, they don't, didn't didn't, they did not talk about out of the wedlock. They talked about rape in particular, they did not talk about consensual sex. They talked about a woman who has been raped and now and and the issue came up, you
know, during the time of the Bosnian War and things like like that. So it has a very special application here.
But congenital diseases like severe congenital diseases can cause severe deformities, and rape are the indications that are mentioned by the scholars in that window between 40 to 120 days, that is between 54 to 134 days, according to the doctors, gestational age, between 50 and 120 days from conception. So you would not add anything to that list? That's that's your restrictive list?
Yes. Okay. Again, I really have to ask these questions. I apologize to our viewers, if you this is a it's a very awkward question. But I'm asking this because every year who knows we get bombarded with these questions, and it is awkward, but I've gotten my credit. These questions emailed to me as well. And I've always defer to authorities in this regard. When you say congenital disease, does that include, for example, Down syndrome? Does that include the quality of life being impaired? So to what level of difficulty would constitute a congenital disease?
Well, you know, and they're forced conference, the the Islamic track assembly of the Muslim World League in their fourth conference, they said,
The punto Hayato, who say, attend lamina Alayhi, WA, ala, where are they, so that his life will be hard, and it will be a cause of grief for him and his parents? And can we just say that we should allow people a little bit of room here to,
to make that determination, and we should talk to them about, you know, severe issues that will cause we're not talking about the loss of one sense, we're not talking about the loss of one limb, how many blind people who have given enrich the life of their parents and humanity a lot more than their counterparts without disability, and how you know, so we're not talking about things of that nature. But we're talking about a severe mental handicap. We're talking about as sort of a severe physical handicap severe, that will make life you know,
sort of
difficult and a cause of grief for the person and that their parents that they want.
It'll be some room for subjectivity. And for some, for me, I believe that conditions that are associated with severe mental disability may cause hardship and grief for the person and, and or their parents or their parents. So I respect that decision. And I, there's just a part of me, that really feels very uncomfortable leaving this open ended simply because there are plenty of
children born that might have slight impediments, mentally speaking, and yet the lives of the parents are enriched in ways they never expected. A child might have in Down syndrome or something of this nature, but allows blessings comes upon the family with love, and the child brings about an element of happiness and joy, even if it doesn't live day that he or she does not live till they're 50 or 60, or whatever. I would just say to the parents that this is a human life. And definitely, if the congenital diseases such that there is no quality of life whatsoever, perhaps the fatwa is applicable. But if it's a gray area, I definitely hope to err on the side of caution and expect a
lot of rewards and blessings and shallow to other will be better for you in this world than the next. And I hope you agree with that generic statement. No, absolutely. You know, what, what makes me a little bit more,
I guess, audacious here is, is the fact that that I have seen that for the Hanafi Safra isn't that that would be a representative like a very large sector of Muslims traditionally, and classically, things were a little bit more lenient in the past than they are nowadays. So
even if, if, if someone says, you know, and we just have to be honest here, like never say if someone says it is based on mutual agreement of the two parents full stop,
up until 120 days, I believe that they can find validation for this in the classical sources into
the form of
easily, despite the disagreement with enemas I have, but they would not even need to go to unauthorized positions they can find authorized positions into out of the form of yet, like I said, our understanding of embryogenesis are, you know, seeing on ultrasound, the baby inside the womb, makes it makes us more inclined to be in a little stricter than the traditional, this course or the class of this course. So, you know, we're just limiting this to severe congenital diseases, deformities, that will basically cause grief and
due to the child or to the parents, and just to underscore. So again, remember that the legend of Dima and imagemap 50. And a number of major councils around the globe have been quite strict. And I I would like to point this out that because of our knowledge of science, because of our knowledge of even I would say even because of the ease of life of living that we have now that we find this this more strictness, and I agree with this, that we should err on the side of caution when it comes to human life. And Allah azzawajal knows best. So the majority, I feel clear by and large, from 40 to 120, they say very, very extenuating circumstances, not just that, you know, oh, life is going to be
slightly difficult. So I, again, perhaps, you know, there's a slight difference here, but I'm more on the side of caution in this regard. And I fully understand where you're coming from as well. But this leads us to and I just want to confirm that I am blind, Mr. Lawson has sensors, last name or things of that nature they use would not qualify, okay, as your congenital deformities. Okay, now, let's get to our past 120. And you said that and of course, this is what the standard d&d fatawa from classical and from modern times is that only if the life of the mother is in danger, can the fetus be aborted after 120 days? Okay, Frank question, given our modern technological achievements
and advancements, Is there ever an actual either or situation nowadays,
either or in what sense you have to choose between the pregnancy or the mother can we not?
So there are there are situations
Where you cannot extract the baby, you cannot do a Syrian.
You can extract the baby, but you will extract the baby too early to be viable.
So the earliest azurion is five months and something correct you you correct me You're the doctor? Yeah, yeah, no, we're talking about 120 days, like after 120 days, we're talking about four and a half months of gestation, or like four and months of gestation and a few days, and that basically is
not a viable fetus. So, if the if the pregnancy when the sort of pose danger to mom, and that pregnancy has to be terminated after 120 days, you still don't have a viable fetus. No. So after when is the earliest Sumerian generally speaking, when can you do a Syrian and save the baby?
You could do Syrian at any time, but you will not need to do as azurion.
You know this early because the baby can be if you're talking about taking the baby out.
A living child ability like when is the fetus when it comes to stimulation of pregnancy? Well, unlike what you know what,
like, what what is sort of traditionally known the shortest duration of pregnancy is not six months, it is rather about five months.
Because the shortest duration of pregnancy, to have a viable fetus is 21 and 22 weeks, some baby was born in Miami a little bit less than that, you know, around 10 ounces of weight and a little bit less than 22 weeks. So we're talking about 20 weeks from conception. So we are talking about 140 days from conception, that is the earliest you can have a viable baby. But that's still extremely risky. So the baby may or may not survive.
Yet, you could you know, have the baby, you could have the delivery of that time and see if the baby would survive. So I guess that's what I'm asking for is that rather than just immediately jump to termination? Surely, if it's possible, we should advise the the couples out there in this situation that obviously, the first choice would be to see if they can save both lives only if it is an either or situation, then obviously the the mother's life has priority. That's what I'm trying to get that. Would you agree with that with that sentiment?
Yes, of course. Okay. So this now leads us to the issue again, and I had this question emailed to me, I think last year by a lady, by again, a couple that was facing this situation where the doctors said, and this was, I think, a month before, a month before the delivery date, that the they had they went for their annual checkup, a regular checkup, sorry. And they discovered that the child would basically whatever the deef, the the congenital deficiencies were, the child would be born and not be able to live at all like it would not be able to breathe on its own, etc, etc. And so the doctor basically said, it would be easier for you to terminate at that late stage, it's not a matter
of life and death, there's just a lot of pain, and you're going to go through an entire delivery, and the child would not be able to live on its own anyway, it's not going to have any, even if it lives maximum just like a few hours or a day or something. And then that's it. So they were asking in this case, that is it allowed for us to abort simply because it's going to save the mother the pain, the emotional pain as well. That was her main point like I'm literally going to carry a fetus or a child that I know is not going to survive, the doctors have whatever it was so you get the scenario here. What are your views on that type of very rare scenario, may Allah protect all of our
viewers from this.
I mean, when after 120 days, we will not just have to wait until delivery.
Delivery can be induced earlier.
We're not talking about abortion here we're talking about induction of delivery, then we can induce delivery as early as possible. But that is not abortion that is induction of the delivery. So I would be it would be okay to induce delivery early if that is what we know about the fetus. But not abortion because after 120 days if the mother's life is not in danger,
Then
no abortion. Now, if the fetus have died, it is a case of fetal demise inside the uterus, then certainly the fetus will be brought out.
If the doctors have determined that the fetus had already expired in utero, then the fetus Well, in this case
need to come out. And we're not talking about induced delivery here. We're talking about extraction of the fetus. Okay. Okay. We only have a few minutes I Mashallah we spend so much time on this one topic, I guess we're gonna have to come back for round two. But two quick questions. And I don't know, are they quick or not. So let's see how quick we can do this. Obviously, it goes without saying pretty much everybody knows that. In vitro fertilization, generally speaking, pretty much all the madonia all the the counselors have allowed this with the simple condition that obviously, the husband and the wife it is their sperm and the egg of the husband and the, the embryo of the wife
that is used, even if the actual fertilization takes place outside of the body, as long as it is within the marriage, the confines of the marriage. Now the question to share is, nowadays, it is getting possible to choose maybe even the gender of the child. And in fact, I'm pretty sure you're the medical expert, but within a few years or decades, you can do more than that gender, you can choose other things, you know, based on your based on the sample that you have in front of you. So to what level would the parents be allowed to make such decisions, given the caveat that it is between the husband and wife, it is the semen of the husband, and of course, the embryo that is
being used? And if the pregnancy is going to be taking place within the body of the we're not using a surrogate mother for this. So just in terms of choosing a little bit more specifying the type of child the gender of the child? What are your thoughts on this?
No, that's not sure. That's not sure it okay. You know, but
but is it okay to wish for specific gender? Yes, it is okay, as long as it does not involve contempt of the other gender. But it is okay. For people who had three or four boys to want to have a girl, it is okay. For people who want three or four girls want to have a boy.
It's natural, it's a natural human tendency. So it is okay to make drama. It is okay to eat certain foods, if someone recommended for you to eat certain foods. You know, there are some indications that it's possible for things that are high in potassium and sodium, for instance, that bring about you know, a boy and magnesium, magnesium and calcium girl.
And stuff like this or use like some people may suggest to you and all of these things are not basically cut and dry. These are things that have some evidence. Some studies have suggested them, they have not been sort of mainstream than medical practice. But some studied studies have suggested that certain types of food
may may
help in that regard. Some sad that doesn't have to do with or you make the environment more alkaline, more acidic. Some said that this may be harmful. Certainly this we're not talking about medicine here are not only talking about 50 issues, so anyone who needs medical advice, they need to basically consult their doctor.
So those measures the time of ovulation.
If you're like
man sperms don't survive that well, like females firms.
And the the closer you are to the primary population, the more likely that you have a boy. And the farther away like within two three days you'll have to have, you know, basically
intercourse within two three days before or after ovulation for conception to take place for fertilization to take place. So the closer you are to the time of oscillation, the more likely to have a boy
the people who do these things, it's okay for them. Given 111 condition here is that it's not harmful. So it is okay to make it or it is okay to do to go about, you know doing some of those measures are like techniques.
Now, in vitro fertilization, there is one case where in vitro fertilization
In vitro fertilization, let us say, what are we talking about here, people who needed to have IV has to because they cannot naturally conceive, and now that they had their IVF, they have the ability to choose the gender of the baby, there is no problem there, they needed to have IVF.
And they have their IVF. And now they have the ability to choose the gender of the baby, or they are given the option to choose the gender of the baby, if this is legal, and it's not legal in all places. But if this is fine, this is legal, I guess, they can choose the gender of their baby.
The other scenario where it is quite obvious that they can choose the gender of the baby is that when there are certain congenital diseases that are gender specific. So if you are prone to certain congenital diseases, and those diseases are gender specific, and you wish to have a baby of the opposite gender that is not prone to the to this disease, then that would be also allowable. Now, the one issue that is controversial is, is whether people who can naturally conceive
may have IVF, for the purpose of choosing the gender of their baby. And this would be like a technique called intracytoplasmic, sperm injection, to inject the Wrights firm
centrifugation of this firms will, you know, push out the means firms out to the peripheries because they're lighter. you examine those firms, you inject the particulars firm, into the Old Firm, whether you want to the male or the females firm, the X or the y's firm, I should say, into the old one, and to have the gender that you want. Now, this is controversial, the majority of the scholars for bidness there are very honorable scholars like Shiva and Sheikh Mohammed Rafi toss, man
who used to be the Dean of the College of Sharia and law, or Mr. mattala, the man.
But some of the, you know, great scholars of our times allowed us the majority for beta and the majority for betas not because we have sort of like
clear cut evidence from the Brennan Center.
But because of many factors that they consider
the natural equilibrium between the genders that you know, that there is divinely decreed and so on.
Certainly, the scholars are allowed to decide that no one can defy Divine Decree even if you do whatever you want. That's not in defiance of Divine Decree, because Divine Decree would come to pass anyway.
So it is a controversial issue. And for me, I don't believe that the evidence against that
is strong enough to say it's Haram. I do say it is my crew.
But I am just like,
too uncomfortable saying it is hard on the Jews there have the baby by having IVF when you can naturally conceive, I like to say Stephen in the main point is that you're not doing so out of a negative feeling towards the other gender because we don't obviously our Shetty is very clear that we are not like, are we to be led to generally people who prefer boys over girls, we're not like that. Allah says no, hold on your holy minister in Athens, where you have an image of the code Oh, user with up to Coronavirus inasa. So like you said, as long as there's not that notion, the level of headin to MIT to call it How long is very, perhaps very difficult in this regard. final point
shahana. And again, I don't know how long this is going to take if it's going to take longer than we will have to ask you to come back next next week. But I wanted to finish up everything to do with at least the main questions you have about pregnancy and whatnot. And that is that sometimes the issue is that the lady is not able to carry the child herself. And if she does have of course, the the the the embryo she has the egg of course the husband has the sperm, but she's not able to carry the pregnancy. And of course in our times as you're aware that technology is there to have surrogate mother third party
To carry the child up until delivery. And then of course, the child is then given over to the original quote unquote parents. Obviously, we're all aware, as far as I know, no Islamic scholar, the committee know much about fifthly. It has allowed this in our shediac. As far as I'm aware, please correct me if I'm wrong. That having been said,
the question arises by many couples who are in this situation, that if Allah azza wa jal has allowed foster mothers, and if there is a Mamiya established simply by giving milk to the child five times or 10 times or however many times according to the medallion, then our pre remember, viola, why couldn't we use that scenario? And basically allow this, I'm just asking you, why couldn't this be allowed that some fuqaha would allow this and say, okay, just like there is a foster mother, let us now also consider the surrogate mother to be a mother and to have Maha atomia established, but the child will be raised by the the original parents, what do you say to that and your comments on
surrogacy overall?
Yeah, but the issue here is that there is a difference between the two scenarios, because when you breastfeed a child, you're not basically having the sperm of a foreign man into your body.
Versus the surrogate mother, the surrogate mother would have the sort of the product of conception, which is this, basically this firm and open, fertilized, go into her body or, you know,
get sort of planted into her womb. And
that's a huge difference.
The sperm of the man should not be
or the products of that, so the sort of the fertilized
zygote should not be inserted into the womb of a foreign woman. And that's certainly, you know, meet some of the scholars question whether in the case of CO wives,
sort of, there's there can be some
flexibility there. And this was raised as a question at the end, one of the meetings of the second assembly
of the assembly, though, I see as far as I remember, but they came back the next year and the rule that out also completely,
but at least some of the scholars have the song that if if the problem here is having sperm of a man or you know, or the fertilized ovum implanted into the womb of a woman for him to that man, what about if they weren't co wives, and, and so it didn't, you know, it did not survive that sort of
preposition was not accepted, and it did not survive. So, what is basically mainstream and accepted now and I don't know if anyone disagrees is that all forms of surrogacy because of this concern
are forbidden.
So, the advice then to such couples is really a law we have to accept a lot other and the law will give them reward for for their patience and obviously the door to adoption is always open. And as I have said many times this notion that adoption is how long we need to remove it from our vocabulary. adoption is 100% halal, what is how long is 70 which is something that nobody does anymore, you may take a child you may raise a child and you may love it as your own, you simply cannot call it your own, you cannot consider it biologically to be your own. But of course, it is of the highest good deeds to take an orphan or to take a child that does not have any
parents or has been abandoned in some place and you raise that child with love with care, and you consider it like your own but you do not call it your own. And your close family and friends know that this is a child that you have adopted adoption, the way that it exists in the West is completely Hillel. What is how long is a god type of adoption that is called Tibetan? And as I explained in previous lectures, we should not say ever that adoption is how long because it has raised a lot of misconception. So the advice therefore to this cup, would you would you would you would you agree to quote an open adoption, I think that concept of open adoption may make it a
little bit that's fine. My point though, is that Tibetan knee as it existed in pre Islam is pretty much gone in the modern world. And nobody claims the child is biologically mine. They might even give the child the last name for legal
purposes, but the notion of Devaney, which was the notion as you're aware of claiming that a certain person basically shall be considered for all intents and purposes, I am taking this child and I am considering this child to be my biological child. So that notion does not exist by and large in the Western culture, the claim that we love the child in the same manner, the claim that you know, is going to be raised in a family this is not quite the notion of, if you give him all the, if you don't tell him about his lineage, you can see exactly my point, we make sure that the family and friends and the child knows of the lineage right so the knowledge has to be there and you don't have
to advertise everybody, somebody comes, hey, that child is adopted, of course, but the close family and friends should know and the child himself or herself you know, as he grows up and there's simple you know, there you should read about the the psychological realities of raising such a child is very simple that from the beginning, you know, the child should be told baby stories about where it came from, and it should automatically just know there and there are nice books that you know, instead of instead of the child you know, coming like it's basically it's simple psychology. Yeah. So it's, it's very easy to to have this done. My point is, as your worship leaders that the average
couple that is struggling, they have the notion that it is how long to take another person's child and adopted sorry, an orphan child and raise it in their own household and that notion needs to be gotten rid of in the minds of the Muslim so that's why I'm a bit shocking when I say we need to stop saying that adoption is how long adoption is Helen the way that is understood and then you give the caveat that the child should know who the parents are and the close family and friends should know. Other than that, obviously it is very rewarding to to do that. So Shana, we have come to the end of our q&a for pregnancy and termination of pregnancy but we still have end of life issues. So
inshallah we have to continue this conversation, maybe in two or three weeks. inshallah is that good timeframe for you that we come back and talk about and we talked at the beginning of life Okay, now we're going to jump to next session inshallah or whenever we get back when we talk about end of life scenarios and pulling the plug in those types of issues. So I'm going to ask you live on air basically that inshallah we agree to come back soon and talk about those issues of end of life inshallah.
inshallah, Jacques mala has always a pleasure and honor Shere Khan and benefited from you. And I have to say that was the first time I heard from you this distinction of 40 to 120. And I'm very, very intrigued and it actually is making a lot of sense to me. So I will become your mo Khalid in this regard, and I will always say our shift chahatein Matt Hodge has this position and I will then give the fatwa based upon your verdict because it actually solves a lot of issues so does akmola head for that. inshallah until next time, Kamala Harris said I want a Kumara to LA he