Tough Questions – The Problem of Evil

Wasim Kempson


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taking water from Attila he over the castle. Welcome back to the second show today. This is difficult questions, difficult questions about the faith of Islam, about how we practice Islam? How indeed our children relate to Islam, and how they have conversations with people who are not Muslim, or in the office or in the college or the university and so on so forth. And indeed, how do we relate Islam in the ordinary sense to ordinary individuals living life out there in the secular democracies that most of us live in? Jim Jim shade lives in a secular democracy was one and I want to come while ACHEMA Salam wa rahmatullah wa barakatu Absolutely. And we've got Muhammad Thompson

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and for those I keep wanting to call him for those Wong but Phil does Wong is in Malaysia, and these guys are both in Auckland, Auckland, and I'm when it comes to those and, and Mohammed Thompson.

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How are you guys today?

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Bright and early?

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Yes, and we're seeing Kempson is living in other secular democracy in London, one of the biggest cities in Europe. So Monica, Santa Monica, but my inside the bounds of my home. It's not secular, and it's not a democracy in sight.

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Wow. I have

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a cheerful brother, they're gonna pick you up for that.

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We have we have shown

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you have Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know why.

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Why your name? I was gonna say I

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understand Arabic. But what isn't shorter, shorter is that we have we consult in the house, we have like,

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a time where we kind of like consult with one another share or share each other's ideas. And then then I say what goes?

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Before? No, no, I'm just joking. We just what's what's best? Yeah, yeah. That's what you'd like to happen. You'd like that to be the case. But of course it isn't. Yeah, it's an ideal. It's an ideal. Yeah, yeah. Okay, guys. Well, today, the topic is a problem of evil.

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What does that mean? What does it mean? It's basically the issue that every human being lives in a reality in a human reality. And we have evil, and we have good, and we have consequences to evil, and we have consequences to doing good actions as well. We have reward for doing good actions, we want to talk about the idea of evil somebody, or many, many people now these days are questioning Muslims as to why evil is allowed. Why should it be allowed? And indeed, if the creator of the universe did all of this and created everything, why does He allow evil, he can allow good that he can't allow evil? That's not allowed. What else? Let's discuss this. Gonna pick up with our Welsh

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philosophical experts. Deep in to the values of the Welsh territory there. Jim shades. We've got even a second. Javits? Yes, I've upgraded since last time, I was actually gonna say, I don't know, where the Welsh philosophical expert is, but I will carry the mantle on behalf of the Welsh people, because I think I'm the only mark person here.

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Does that.

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Mean? It depends really, how far do we want to go with this because there's so many different ways to tackle this. So the way I prefer to deal with this issue is go logically step by step in terms of one thing, you know, necessarily leads to another or knocks one dominant and now the problem of evil often comes up as an argument to negate the existence of God altogether. So the argument in his briefest form is that you know, if God is all good, all knowing all powerful, but evil exists, then you know, God is unable to prevent it and therefore God can't be gone or some kind of a weird absurdity of this and people often use issues of trauma in their lives. You know, something happened

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to me something happened to my dog, something happened to someone down the street, whatever have you. And because that thing happened, therefore, there is no God.

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Image delete from this one personal or

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There's one limited thing happening to all of a sudden denying

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the Creator altogether. So the very first thing to tackle is the problem of evil.

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The fact that evil exists first and foremost, can and does in no way change whether or not a Creator exists.

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The problem with this thinking is that people assume that if a Creator exists, that he must be or it must be in a very particular way. And if it doesn't conform to that particular way, I've preconceived in my mind, or maybe some other ideologies have told me about, then by definition, the creator doesn't exist at all, a more accurate statement will be would be or should be, no, the creator doesn't exist in the way that you've conjured them in your mind. But that doesn't negate the necessity for the creator for our reality in the first place.

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Okay, great. Yeah, that makes sense. So, so Okay, so anyone using this basically can't use this argument to say that God doesn't exist because the two just don't correlate it, one cannot lead to the other conclusion.

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Okay, so let's put it out to the audience and

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the panelist that

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in the absence of evil, would good exist? In the absence of evil, would good exists.

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Excellent question. So let's let's put that out to shake Wassim is looking very comfortable and needs to look less comfortable.

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In his shorter maintained household Alhamdulillah.

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There is a well known Arabic saying, and just as a logical statement, find in English as well, but with opposites,

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with when you having opposites that things become clearer.

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When you see the reality of two opposites, those matters actually become clearer. So it's very important for us to, at the same time, when we start when we talk about and discuss that what is is evil and wrong.

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That we must also understand that what is good,

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because what will determine something and evil and wrong is in face of something that is that is good. Like when we're studying topics in Islam, like tell feet, yeah, at the same time, you will study aspects of shirk, associating partners with us, pantalla, which is the opposite of, of toe feet. So it's very important for us to,

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to have this approach when talking about evil, or good and evil.

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jumps had started a good conversation, that if you're talking to a

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particular type of person who is impossible as possibly in denial about the existence of a creator, then you can take this discussion that way, with that particular individual, you also have discussions with

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people who are possibly agnostic, who don't necessarily, by definition, doesn't really follow religion, but believe in something possibly, or people like people of faith, whether they're Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, Christians, or Zoroastrians, or whatever they may be, I think from an Islamic point of view, then when we're talking about

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good, and we're talking about evil, there's a lot of factors for us to discuss a lot of material for us to kind of discuss, and to a lot of kind of foundations for us to set out, so that the discussion can kind of build on.

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So we as Muslims, we have understandings as to what we define as good. And things that we are things that are defined as evil.

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And this is in line with something called the fitrah. Which is the natural, natural disposition of a human being, are they able to? And this is an interesting discussion as well, is the human being able to determine that what is good and bad by their own intellect? Can they you know, without any introduction of Revelation, for example, is a person able to determine what is good and bad? This is something that we can speak about,

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or are we completely reliant on Revelation?

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And if you're talking to a non believer in the Creator, then that's a bit of an issue. But nonetheless,

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it's typical for us to bring not difficult but the starting point will be different. If you're talking to an atheist as to how do we determine that what is good and evil, or we don't of course, at the beginning here, I'm not going to give

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go through all of the, the answers and the of these particular issues, but this is something for us to, to think about through the next hour or so when we're discussing

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these issues in Charlotte. And I think it's important that the viewers,

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for them to have an open mind about these particular topics. And I think that when we put all these things together, our understanding of the human disposition, starting point in our understanding of good and good and bad,

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this goes a long way, in understanding the beauty of Islam,

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and how it goes to protect the human being, religion, life, money, wealth, for these things, is the same thing.

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The Sharia or the, the, the greater objectives of the law, the revelation that was given to us, all of these are interlinked.

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And once we have a clear kind of understanding of all these things, then it becomes a very, very beneficial topic. Very, very interesting definition and discussion. So the next question,

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because what we're trying to do is get the essential foundation of the topic out there, so that people understand why we're having this conversation, isn't it Jim shade?

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And, you know, the problem of evil involves understanding morality, as well. Yeah. What is morality? Is there a collective moral objective? morality? Meaning, can we all agree on what is right and what is wrong as human beings? And generally, if you were to take 100 human beings, and you put them in a room, and with without any objective bias, you ask them, Is this evil? Is this good? You would probably find that 99% of the time, the answers would be the same. Right? Okay. So, in terms of what is evil, I think we can agree on what is evil. However, nowadays, maybe the lines are being blurred. If you went back 30 years ago. Do you think that we could all agree on evil guys, this?

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Let's hear from Auckland's let's hear from Muhammad Thompson to start with?

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Cycle? Yeah, while he comes around?

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I'm not sure about, what, 30 years ago, 50 years, 100 years ago, I think, like we talked about, like we talked about last week, many other weeks. We're all born with this natural inclination for good, like the fitrah, you know, of what, what is he what is right and what is wrong. So the over the years, there might be some clouding or things like that of different aspects of that. But I think still, if you get back to the roots of it, I think we all understand what is good and bad, but then we just then push the boundaries, I suppose, you know, like, people try and get away with whatever they get away with, if they can get away with things, they'll get away with it. Like if, if the

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repercussions or that or the or what they perceive as repercussions and for what their actions are is a bit weak, then they will push the boundaries a bit more and a bit more. And it just I think that this is the case. So it just needs that. Yes, the morality in society, he's got a bit looser, you know, the equal opportunities, new, whatever rules and things like that are being imposed throughout the world, by governments and things like that, you know, allowing more people to have a bit looser understanding and then pushing the boundaries. Allah knows best. Okay. Okay, so,

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Muhammad, sorry, for those who want to say something, I was about to say something actually, also, I wanted to start with about how do you define good and evil, right? For example, death, is death, an evil thing, or is a good thing? Or is something that we actually expect that all of us have to go through, at some point in our lifetime? So because, you know, when someone die, you know, the families and the Children's, or the parents, they get upset about these things? is a form of trial, isn't it? So is it good or bad? Is death an evil thing? Why does God doesn't stop death for example? So that's how I wanted to start with that. Right. And, and I think again, I think the point has

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always been about when you don't have the whole understanding about faith or from the Islamic perspective, you start to see this good and evil

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is something you know, contradicting each other I sometimes say you know, in the sense that good and evil is something that Almighty God Buddhists for us, and actually work in in some way that you know, maybe someone else's the speakers can actually explain this better and be jumpship can explain this better about the

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The objective evil or is an objective good

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and I think that's that's where we have to start so what is good and what is evil?

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I'm just gonna put it out there for others to explain that Yeah.

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Okay Have we lost Youssef?

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Yousef, he's talking to himself. Yeah.

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Let's get

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rocking my mic because there's noise behind me sick

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I'm trying to do. I'm at home guys.

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I'm not at home home is Janna for me, Jana Insha Allah, all of us Inshallah,

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meaning we talked about what is evil and we talk, we talk about objective realities of, you know,

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objective morality, should I say, I guess, and also we're going to need to address the question, but already was seen as mentioned, who defines good and evil? Yeah, you know, who defines good and evil? Okay. What authority? Should we?

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Should we take good and the evil from? Okay, so just jump shade? Let's go back to you.

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Let's, let's, let's get some insight. So let me rewind a very little bit to an earlier question you asked, which was

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10, you experience good without evil, and scheppers seem addressed this from the perspective of understanding what evil is and things like that. But I want to go one step just before this, to just actually look at good and evil in and of themselves.

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If you have no evil and chakras, you mentioned that, you know, you know, things by the opposites, how can you experience good, the very fact that you know, something is good means that you have to also be able to recognize the opposite of it, or the absence of it, which necessitates something called evil to exist. As in this is the opposite of the situation we want to experience or we want to be in. So the two come hand in hand to experience one, you have to also know its opposite, you know, to experience heat, you also have to experience or to be aware of what it's like to have the absence of heat, ie to be cold. So in that sense, to recognize good exists, you have to recognize

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that evil has to coexist with it. And furthermore, now, now, let's go on to the the, I suppose the morality are the way that you look at evil. You see, when someone commits an action, when any being commits an action or something happens, that thing just happens, okay? When an animal eats another animal, it's just living out its life, it's just doing things. Now the perspective of was it a good thing? Or was that a bad thing that's only internal within us, we're just applying a label to it according to how we feel about that. If a lion eats a gazelle, I mean, the lion is going to feel pretty good about it, because then he's going to feel pretty gutted about it, it's the exact same

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action, but depending on from which way you're looking at it, you're going to have completely different contrasting perspectives. Whereas in reality, without our subjectivity in the objective world, there's no good and evil happening here. This is just different people's perspectives of the same one thing happening. So for human beings, then to recognize that there are things in the world that should be collectively called good or collectively called Evil, demonstrates, or indicates rather, that there is some standard that is external to ourselves, that there is the standard of good and a standard of evil that's not being generated from the individual. But it's somehow shared

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by the collective majority, which then begs the question going into what you saying what Schiff was, he was saying that where is the standard coming from? How do you know? How can you say a particular action is good and evil, and you have to ultimately, if you go down this road, you have to come to the recognition that there needs to be some kind of an objective standard that transcends human beings as a collective to be able to define certain things as good, certain things is evil. Now, you may disagree with that. So let's just say for example,

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from the Islamic perspective, we would consider alcohol to be an evil thing, the mother of evils, but there are many, many people in the world that think no, no, it's a good thing. They're still applying their own subjective perspective here, because, you know, they have their own individual feelings towards it.

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That still doesn't negate the fact that to have the concept

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that there is an overriding thing concept of something is good, something is evil, that there needs to be an objective morality indicator that we take to be a last one that allowed God with the rules set out for us according to the the Sharia. Does that I hope that answers that part of that question. Okay. Yeah, it's good. I think it's good guy so far, we find that by the way, getting loads and loads of

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people come in second, because this time notice, the absence of evil would make good meaningless. Being say,

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we've got

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lots and lots of good and evil are socially constructed concepts. There we are there this, there's one that we can argue against. Good and evil are socially constructed concepts from Sabrina. Sabrina is saying that, in actual fact, she's saying that we make it up as we go along. And society is formed as a result of our social interaction together. And we create so good is a moving bar. And evil is a moving bar. So

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you're saying we perceive it as we go along? Ah, yes. There's an important distinction here. So let me go on a very small philosophical tangent, right. Here's a popular question. If a tree falls in the woods, and there's no one there to hear it, does it make a sound? Hmm, what? Yeah. So I would say no, I would say the answer is no. Because when the tree falls in the woods, all it's doing is producing shockwaves. Right? It patterns in the air. And it requires a person to receive those shockwaves in the ear to translate that into what you would call a sound. If there's no one there doing that there is no actual sound. Does that make sense? So you have to recognize that certain

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things only exist because we perceive them to exist? Absolutely. It could be that as well. Like I said, it just you know, actions happen online itself. It's just happening. There's nothing there. Objectively, there's there's always there's good and evil, it just comes down to what you're experiencing, and what and how you process that. Okay, that's great. That's a lovely people like your gazelle.

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Example, by the way, laying in the Gazelle is a good example. This is a survival mechanism created by Allah. So it is necessary from Salwa from the USA, she likes that very much. I want to go to Waseem and ask him

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about the authority, the authority behind good and evil. I mean, do we do we definitely have to have an authority that governs absolutes in evil and good.

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With regard to authority, if

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it's simply down to individuals, that will change over a period of time, then it's completely subjective meanings that what person thinks is good and evil, today, and then tomorrow, it can be changed.

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for an Islamic point of view, and

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there's a very well known book is in two volumes is called

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as written by, as we've just said, and so we've been able to sell him and he talks about benefits and harms one of the most benefit, the best books written on the topic of the masala Well, my first bit of benefit and harm. And he says that when we're looking at good and evil benefit and harm,

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there are certain things which are pure benefit.

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The sound mind the person is in a pure natural predisposition, where there is something which is 100%, pure,

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purely good. And then there are things which are purely evil, purely bad.

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An example of that something that's purely good is worshipping Allah. Okay, as pure good. There is no perspective that it's bad in any way. And something which is purely evil is for example, shook. Okay, this is on the worship level. Let's say for example,

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murder. This is purely evil, taking the life of another person, unjustifiably Okay.

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From the beginning of time.

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cut kabillion Hadfield, they were there, he killed his brother, okay, for the first people existed on Earth, and immediately and Allah tells us, for us for him in intervening that he became from those who are regretful over that what he did. So there were certain things which were purely good. And then there are things which are purely evil. And this should be if you like, universal, universal, everybody should know that and you don't need revelation

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to be told that this is innate for you to recognize that. Then the Roth is with

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Are, we like can be determined, depending on your perspective.

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So the example that gemstones Allah had, he gave the example of the lion. From the lions perspective, it's good from the gazelles position. It's bad. However, if we're told that lions do exist, because somebody likes lions that you know, is the king of the jungle, they have to eat, they have to eat the gazelle to to survive, to be there. In the jungle, the person will say, Well, I don't like it. I understand. That's the way it has to be. Okay. So there are certain things which if you're told, it might not, you know, your initial kind of

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might see as one perspective, but when you're told something else, by an authority, that actually there's a greater kind of

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active in that issue, then you can see that as an authority.

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And that authority from the summit perspective, is that a lot defines those issues were

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doing away with what's what's purely good, and that was purely bad. That's known to everybody those issues which

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need to be debated. Allah will give us direction as to this is what is determined as good and determined is bad. Another good example is alcohol. Okay, that some people see as a benefit. However, the sin and the evil in alcohol is greater than a benefit that can be found in it, yes, there may be a benefit, but the harm is greater. So there's issues which could possibly be debated, or depending on that person's perspective, then this is where we will have the Quran telling us or the revelation from Colette determining and telling us this is to be labeled as good and will always be good. And this will be evil, and will always be evil

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left in the handle, then depending on their their power, or their influence and people, then they can corrupt and oppression can occur. So therefore these matters, morality to do with rulings and whatnot. We always have the authority of revelation because we understand that Muslims Allah created his creation and knows his creation best that what is best for them

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so this is our ultimate authority and understanding these things

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that's reminds me of something Can I jump in quickly about the you know the stories that we know about how when a Lord created Adam

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everyone's back everyone's back.

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No, no, it No seriously, it doesn't need to be sorted.

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No, it's not. It's the internet. No. Internet.

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Hello. So

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we're back. We're back live. The whole computer just crashed

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this the evil within the system

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crashed it corrupted it something happened. So I do apologize audience out there. And we are live. So we'll continue this conversation. Everyone's here. Right? Good.

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wow. Oh, you're all Muhammad. Well done.

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Very interesting.

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Okay, let's just turn the names off, shall we? Yes. That's better. Yes. Let's just turn the names up. Hold on.

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Okay, we're gonna go back

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there we are. Okay, that's better. Yes. Okay. That's

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just gotta finish what I've started to go on. The stories about you know, how when Allah created Adam, and angels were questioning a lot why are you creating something that can

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cause shed blood in all gonna cost corruption? And Allah answers very, very simple all in a llama Allah Allah moon. So you indeed I know what which you do not know. So this is actually quite important because

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majority of the time we will talk about the concept of good and evil and things that happenings around us. There are many many, many things out there that happen that we we don't know why it happens. Or there might actually be something good that leads out of that, which I think from from us as a Muslim perspective as a Muslims, when some something happened, you know about the, the, what we call the theologies or the concept of understanding suffering from Islamic perspective is that

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Suffering my orca sometimes just to prefer our sins, or some suffering my orca in order to increase the human being in gratitude, you know, suffering my orca to develop humility and submission in that, you know, more and more and more and more. Yes, yeah, that's a good point. A good point if we didn't. So this was I didn't hear unfortunately, we seem, I didn't hear about the authority issue. But I asked you a question about authority, who's the authority who can define what good and evil is, let's go over that again. And make sure that all the audience said that, because I certainly didn't.

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Okay, so, essentially, it was talking about the classification of good and bad, and things can be seen as pure good and pure evil. And then there are things which are, depending on the person's perspective, may be consumers good or bad.

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And this is what I said, of course, from a Muslim perspective, Allah subhanaw taala in the Revelation explains to us, and clarifies those issues, so that we don't fall on the wrong side. So the example of alcohol I gave, so, you know, Allah tells us that there is a manifested illness, there's some maybe some benefit for the people. However, the sin and the evil that is involved in alcohol far outweighs, far outweighs whatever good a person can find. So this is where our, the authority of us as Muslims

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is put into place. And this is continuous, it doesn't change. So what was seen as good, you know, 1000 years ago, he's good now. And that what was seen as evil 1000 years ago, is, isn't evil now. And this is the one of the, the miraculous natures or the revelation, in that we are given a set of laws, regulations, guidance, that is applicable

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for all times in all places.

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Because, okay, mankind, if it's not kind of kept within a certain kind of direction,

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you know, destroy itself and harm itself.

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And hence, fear does is good point about suffering, suffering is the necessary thing and evil, which corrects people and stops them from going and doing absolutely mad things. Like my wife putting the coffee machine on in the middle of the webinar, like she just doesn't, and that's causing me suffering and harm. And all the audience's well. In fact, the whole household today is you can hear lots of activity going on in the background, what I want, can I just, can I just throw something out? Go for it, is there no coffee, then we don't want to know, go for it now. Like, I'm not into coffee anyway. So. So I just want to throw something out there is suffering evil? Like is it evil?

00:32:48--> 00:32:53

Because, like, if we learned something really good from that, is that thing considered evil?

00:32:55--> 00:33:21

I want I'm just trying to get out there. Evil, is it no suffering as a consequence of evil, isn't it? Yeah, isn't it that is the Quran, it was him that is the correct and necessarily not necessarily a person can suffer. And that is actually good for them in that if you understand that this can be an explanation and a removal of sins. Yeah, that's right. And that person may go through the smallest of suffering but there's

00:33:22--> 00:33:28

patients with that and they meet their Lord in a state of with no sin.

00:33:30--> 00:33:30


00:33:31--> 00:33:53

from that perspective, is not necessarily the case it can be something which is a source of purification for that person again, if they have that correct understanding, if a person doesn't have that, then the person will be kind of in a perpetual state of living the going through a test and some suffering and doesn't know how to get out of that. So the kind of in this kind of situation was pure suffering for them medically.

00:33:56--> 00:34:03

And just another point that another point that quickly right, if you have a lot of money is it good or bad?

00:34:05--> 00:34:50

You know, if the if the if you have a lot of amount of wealth and that wealth put you away from Allah and that's going to be a bad thing for you. It's a trial for you. So you know just because you think it's nice to have that but it doesn't mean that's what it is, you know what I mean? So only Allah knows best what the overall view overall perspective I think I like to listen to Hamza thought is up Hamza Allah has mentioned this we human we only see one pixel of something but Almighty God see a lot more I see everything that which we don't see we only see one pixel at a time we don't see you know, when you when you use a Photoshop, you try to edit some pictures. You looked at one pixel

00:34:50--> 00:35:00

at a time, that's what we humans see. We don't see the overall overall thing. On the other hand, Allah knows everything. And this is this is this is crucial. Okay, very

00:35:00--> 00:35:23

Good point very good point to those are the few dos Masha Allah, we've got another couple of family members joined us in the kitchen over here. So we'll get some more interaction from the audience. They've got an audience here. Okay. So essentially, what I want to put, I want to put this question now, in particularly in secular, Western democratic societies?

00:35:24--> 00:35:27

Where did they get the idea of good and evil?

00:35:29--> 00:35:37

Who wants to address that? Where did they get the idea of good and evil? Who gave them this information?

00:35:39--> 00:35:51

We're talking about the fitrah. Is it fitrah? Or where did they get this information? of good and evil? Which 99%? We agree on, although things are changing.

00:35:54--> 00:35:56

So I'll just jump in here quickly.

00:35:57--> 00:36:19

Before my two cents worth. Well, if he talked about Western, let's probably come back from the original because most of the western countries now going back a bit, we're basically Christian based expecting so they probably come from the teachings, which is in come initially from the Creator, the 10 commandments, yeah.

00:36:21--> 00:36:38

Jail, the Gospel, etc, etc. All the books, the prophets that were sent, is that with a consensus is that is that I mean, do we ever argue those points when we giving Dawa or calling people to Islam in the West?

00:36:39--> 00:36:45

Jim shade? It looking very quizzical over there, I'm, you know, I'm

00:36:46--> 00:37:31

actually, I'm really not a fan of questions that ultimately don't really get, you know, a person from a subjective perspective anywhere in terms of arguing, Okay, where did good and evil? I mean, okay, fine. In terms of secular society, you know, the secular societies have today evolved from the theological based societies of yesteryear. And obviously, a lot of those teachings were based on the theology there. So all they've just basically done is start off with that template that the theology has given them, which, you know, for the most part, you know, conform around the world, generally speaking, but then they just changed and adapted to suit their own needs, capitalism, whatever, have

00:37:31--> 00:37:44

you personal knifes and desires. Sometimes it works, sometimes it fails. A good example is what's that period called? In America with a number where they abolished alcohol when they tried to abolish alcohol?

00:37:46--> 00:37:48

I forget a prohibition

00:37:50--> 00:38:13

a couple of weeks back, you know, you know, it backfired spectacularly because of the way they went about it. There was no basis it was just the government saying no, and everyone said yes, and eventually, you know, the people would not rather than in Islam, the way that it was done, it was attached to, you know, your love for Allah subhanaw taala and Islam and following Rasul Allah, so some people gave it up willingly. But

00:38:15--> 00:38:33

the point being that in secular society today, people are just essentially literally making it up as they go along. Literally, that's it. I mean, look at the government's look at the government last year, oh, face covering fiscal Renaud is bad is bad, we can't do anything. Now. It's the discovery fiscal rule, you have to have the fiscal side

00:38:39--> 00:38:49

might make it up as you go. There's no standard. There's no standard, you just make it they just make it up as they go along. But however, the law, the legal system, the courts, etc, how they administer

00:38:51--> 00:38:52


00:38:53--> 00:39:16

and rewards, but certainly punishments. Overwhelmingly, it is objective, to say that look, evil, killing isn't evil. Stealing one's property isn't evil. You know, coveting another man's wealth isn't evil. These are the 10 commandments, right? So on and so forth. Right? So are those Abrahamic are those

00:39:18--> 00:39:26

religiously inspired? And can we argue this? Sheikh was saying? Yes, I want to send you in with my aid here. Yeah.

00:39:28--> 00:39:29

When you're talking about

00:39:30--> 00:39:49

ethics and morality, in politics, this has this has its own kind of subject. And what you mentioned a little bit of just thinking about it, that yes, you know, the the legal system for morality in politics has its kind of beginnings, many centuries ago.

00:39:51--> 00:39:59

And it's depending on one country to the next if you know many of the Western countries where the church had a big see in how

00:40:00--> 00:40:31

Uh, the ruling of the country, you know, church would be the, you know, a major part of of that. But over a period of time, where secularism has the different types of secularism has kind of become much stronger within, within politics, there is a gradual kind of detachment. And you'll find that, you know, France in their politics is very different from from the UK, that they, they're very proud of the kind of liberal,

00:40:32--> 00:40:45

secular kind of, of way and detachment from religion as much as they can, they're very proud of this very much more so than here in the UK, for example. So you find over a period of time, there's this detachment from the

00:40:47--> 00:41:15

kind of religious kind of authority that exists and religious laws that exist within, within kind of governments. And as time goes along, you know, as time is moving along, that these governments are now replacing certain ideals, they're replacing certain ethics and the morals people had 5060 years ago, these are being eroded away, and the self, the individual is being put first,

00:41:17--> 00:41:19

instead of the greater benefit of

00:41:21--> 00:41:30

these kind of divine laws, that once were enshrined in the kind of laws and whatnot. So is a very,

00:41:32--> 00:42:13

very sad state of affairs where you find essentially, people are becoming like the godless society, because their governments and their rulers are moving away from those divine laws, which are, by and large, a lot of them are universal, and it's a good power step, talking about wires killing wrong, where did that come from? Who told you that this is something innate, and that religion supports? So when we start talking about stealing, and then you can start building the conversation this way? And then go on to those things, which maybe people then start wanting to change as to the purpose of that change? Is it about what is greater for the greater good for the society? Or is it about

00:42:13--> 00:42:25

certain, you know, just allowing the self just to follow their own desires, that everything can just go regardless of whatnot, which eventually we decided perspective, we can say will lead to the destruction of the individual and society.

00:42:26--> 00:42:39

Well, Salawat says anything bad Allah subhanaw taala makes very clear in the Quran as the commands as a command for for our own good for our own good for the otherwise we suffer.

00:42:41--> 00:42:56

Just to just one point that you mentioned, you know, Shaq was brought up the question, you know, it's a good strategy. Question, we're gonna waste kidding wrong. Where did that come from? Just going the other way. You know, from the atheist perspective, from from a truly

00:42:58--> 00:43:15

hardcore atheist perspective, there is absolutely nothing wrong with killing. Because life is just random. Your life was just random. Your existence is random. Everything is random. So what difference does it make if one random thing just happens to kill another with it? When there is no soul? There's, there's no

00:43:17--> 00:43:55

personality there. There's no There's basically, there's no, there's no, there's no essence, beyond the physical material thing. So an analogy for this is like, for example, I don't know if you guys have ever seen this program, Robot Wars where people just construct Yes, machines with the sole objective of just destroying one another, right? Nobody says that's evil. You know, they do that for fun for competition for sport, but nobody cares. Because there's no soul there. There's no life there is there's there's nothing there of essentially value. But from the atheist perspective, life itself has no value because we're just random, complete random accident, really. So from anyone to

00:43:55--> 00:44:20

start arguing the value of life and then using that to negate the creator that actually gave life value is kind of completely mixing up the concept and actually the foundation of where they're even coming from. Atheists have got no basically no way to see you know, when life has value because it's just an arbitrary thing. Why does a human beings life have more value than a strawberry

00:44:21--> 00:44:24

is just random constructs of matter?

00:44:25--> 00:44:59

They have no purpose and no greater, no greater purpose of everything. Everything is just random everything it is there's no feelings it like a computer doesn't care. A robot doesn't care whether it lives or dies because it doesn't have we do because we have that, that fitrah that innate sense of self and things like that. That is beyond the physical like there's no physical part in our brain and our body that that there's a switch that says okay, care about yourself. I'm not it doesn't exist, our our soul, our sense of being actually hears it

00:45:00--> 00:45:42

The question, the question a question is, do you have a skeleton inside you? Or are you inside the skeleton? So think about it, like when you consider you, what are you like? Are you the body? Do I have a skeleton inside this physical body? But then my consciousness isn't everything is in my brain, which is inside the skeleton, like, when you say you, where are you? Exactly, it's something that is separate to the material. But from the atheist perspective, only the material exists. So if it's only the material exists, you just reform you no matter in from one state to another state, ultimately, you know, nothing really matters. So really,

00:45:43--> 00:45:45

nothing really matters. Nothing, nothing really.

00:45:47--> 00:46:11

Nothing really matter which matters yet. Because it's money and objects and the dunya, the dunya, something very low. The object of our lives is just to a mass, and then sleep, eat, drink, and then die. What what I'd like to ask them is, I put this question to the panel again,

00:46:12--> 00:46:22

what would happen if we, in the human construct, did not punish evil, we did not punish evil.

00:46:25--> 00:46:44

We didn't punish evil, we just let it go unchecked. Right? Some guy goes off and randomly, most down 10 people? And because we don't, we don't see that as evil, maybe some of us see as evil and might even have a justification for doing what would happen to society.

00:46:45--> 00:46:52

Absence of chaos and anarchy and just total destruction of what we call society.

00:46:54--> 00:46:57

Yeah, somebody's called it. The most crazy.

00:47:00--> 00:47:46

Sad part of this one is that a lot of people would actually advocate and say, Oh, no, the good people in society, they would take over and this that and the other. Yeah, they would curb it. It's a nice Id do in theory, but in practice, it never ever plays out. And I'm gonna, let me give you an example that's going on today. For example, the idea of democracy, right is supposedly a good thing. Okay. And I want to be specific, in my terminology here, democracy here, where we are saying that the opinion of a complete idiot is equal in validity, to the opinion of someone who is considered an expert. Right? The equating of those two opinions. And then people say, Well, okay, I want I vote

00:47:46--> 00:48:03

for a complete idiot to be the most powerful man in the world versus, you know, the less people who will say, Well, no, actually, you know, you're gonna have disaster, what do we have, we have, you know, complete disaster as we can see what's going on in certain countries in the world where the whole democratic process is being

00:48:04--> 00:48:27

dismantled. The point being that it's, you can have this idea of interior, oh, no democracy, you know, people will come together and they will vote for the collective, the greatest good and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. In practice, that doesn't happen. It really doesn't happen because you have the people who very easy to be manipulated, who don't have that knowledge to make the informed decision. And when you give those people the,

00:48:28--> 00:48:48

the power, the same power, as someone who has an informed position, you basically negate the, the expertise of the people who are informed, and that in and of itself leads to the destruction of society. These are nice ideas in theory, in practice, they just don't play out.

00:48:49--> 00:48:54

Quorum, Ahmed, Amin is saying, Can I join the Zoom call? Well, we're not on Zoom rows.

00:48:56--> 00:49:25

You can join if you want, but no, no, I'm, I'm very serious. Well, thank you very much for your offer of, you know, contributing, contact us for a later show, maybe rather a forum very, very nice for you to I think Brother Forum has been a regular contributor from my page over there. Mashallah. Good one Brophy DOS, I don't know what that means. What what did you say if it does? I think that was Jamshed who talks about that?

00:49:26--> 00:49:31

Yeah, because the names of course not evident, because when I came back on the

00:49:32--> 00:49:34

same label, yeah.

00:49:35--> 00:49:38

recognize all of you as good mom. It

00:49:42--> 00:49:44

was a real Muhammad Thompson please do.

00:49:48--> 00:49:50

Absolutely. So

00:49:51--> 00:49:54

now, let's go back to objective morality that

00:49:56--> 00:49:59

is in light of this discussion, is it possible

00:50:00--> 00:50:02

There is no objective morality

00:50:06--> 00:50:23

depends from which is it? Is it ever possible, I mean to say that humans were created with and and Allah just gave us the ability to decide and or to an evolution of morality?

00:50:25--> 00:50:49

Yeah, I mentioned this a little bit earlier I think, yeah, this links to you know, the state of FITARA or the natural disposition of the human being, and that the Prophet peace be upon him told us and is when of course as mentioned in a sort of a rule and the Quran that this is a fitrah that Allah created mankind womankind upon, and that if a person remains upon that pure,

00:50:51--> 00:50:57

natural disposition, they will be able to determine universal good and universal evil.

00:50:58--> 00:51:08

Those types of moral issues, they will be able to understand those issues, as there are finite issues, which from one era or one

00:51:12--> 00:51:32

one time to the next, it may change, I'll give an example of this, okay. And it's important for us to make a distinction between, from the beginning of time to the end of time that they will never change, like, for example, killing, okay, and justify, but that's always going to be wrong. And I give the example of the two sons of tamales for the very beginning of time, they knew, of course, Captain knew that he'd done something wrong.

00:51:34--> 00:51:37

What about for example, marrying your sister.

00:51:39--> 00:51:42

Okay. Now, the moment now this is morally wrong.

00:51:44--> 00:51:59

Now, but there was a point in time, that that wasn't, but it was it was necessary. So for example, the sons and daughters and the the progeny of Adam Alayhis Salam peace be upon him, that this was something was permitted, okay.

00:52:00--> 00:52:02

So there may be certain issues which

00:52:04--> 00:52:09

are allowed at certain times due to necessity, and the revelation will determine that for us.

00:52:10--> 00:52:24

So, for your time of jacobellis married two sisters, that was permitted in his Sharia, in the laws that were given to him, as for us now, for a man to marry two sisters, it is not permitted, absolutely not. Because it's seen as

00:52:26--> 00:52:33

for the reasons, of course, now is it will cause an enmity between the two sisters, but it was allowed at one particular time.

00:52:34--> 00:52:47

So those issues which, depending on the situation, depending on the time, that may change depending on you know, the theory or the laws that are given at that time, but there are certain universal

00:52:50--> 00:53:12

understanding of good and evil that will never ever change. And if a person remains in that kind of natural disposition, they will be able to determine that this is why we need laws, for us to understand that we are restricted in certain issues, but at the same time, also to promote things which are in our benefit. And if you don't have those laws, then as we mentioned earlier, there's chaos, there's carnage, and it leads to

00:53:14--> 00:53:18

essentially, you know, a survival of the fittest in the, in the most evil way.

00:53:19--> 00:53:26

So, therefore, allows humankind to, to flourish in a sustainable way.

00:53:28--> 00:53:48

So, so we're going back to the days of Jay Hellyer, or ignorance that before the prophets came and gave their messages, particularly in the case of the Islamic world, the Quran, Revelation, Quranic revelation 1400 years 14 130 odd years ago,

00:53:49--> 00:54:22

that the situation was incredibly bad. Before the Quran came in the Arabian Peninsula, we know that female children would be buried and the extreme the wealth with the wealthy and the leaders were very oppressive to their people, there was slavery and, and so on and so forth. So, without in the absence of refreshing that message, that moral, moral, objective moral message.

00:54:25--> 00:54:31

Then, what happens to society, it decays, it decays and what we see today.

00:54:33--> 00:54:34


00:54:35--> 00:54:39

killing is widespread. We have, for example,

00:54:41--> 00:54:45

children in London, in Birmingham and Manchester in my country,

00:54:47--> 00:54:53

stabbing each other, and they don't even know really why they've done it. You know, we have

00:54:54--> 00:54:59

mass, you know, poverty in the world Subhanallah poverty in the world.

00:55:00--> 00:55:21

And, and although it's about distribution, distribution of wealth, you know, one could see that there is enough foods and products in the world to go around, but they're not being distributed equitably. So, is it that the data,

00:55:22--> 00:55:31

or the calling or inviting back to that moral compass is missing? So, you know,

00:55:32--> 00:55:48

where do we go from here, guys, this is what I'm saying. I'm saying we need to bring this discussion, back to solution based discussions, you know, we need solutions, we don't need to just be talking for the sake of talking.

00:55:49--> 00:56:02

Guy, let's, let's go back to this, go round the table and find out how we're going to deal with this and bring Islamic morality back. So as I start with, with the viewpoints,

00:56:03--> 00:56:54

because that's the easiest way to do. Number one is enough from from Islamic perspective, we see that God is not only all knowing, but he's also wise. So whatever happened in God's wisdom, you know, utilize his knowledge, for the greatest possible objective, this is very, very important. And the, the, the knowing that God is all wise, and he's also just, which is the character, you know, and everything. So, to be honest, everything that can happen today are all intertwine, you know, millions and millions of possibilities that can happen in the next hour and next minute. But everything happened, because this is how God's view, Allah has this, this whole Pixel THING that I

00:56:54--> 00:56:58

that I mentioned before. And the next thing is, you know, the

00:56:59--> 00:57:41

gods, what we have to differentiate between God's will and love, just two different things. And just because something bad happened, like genocide, or whatever it is, they can actually be to show love that God wanted to show love from the other community, or the people who have responsibility who actually put out well, let me give you an example. You know, what happened in Lebanon, for example, recently, the use of and we are making use of we were discussing about it last week, what happened in Lebanon is a trial for the people there. But it's also a trial for us, those who are not who don't suffer from it, to actually contribute to actually be part of it and help the people over

00:57:41--> 00:57:53

there. So that's a trial for them. And for us, whether those because we have at the moment are willing to actually share our wealth with our brothers and sisters in Lebanon. So that's, that's from me.

00:57:55--> 00:58:01

Okay, just talk a lot here. from Auckland, that doctor for those that Hamdulillah.

00:58:03--> 00:58:23

Okay, Jim shade. Yeah. How do we, how do we bring back this morality? I mean, how is it possible, it seems like such a quagmire we're involved in now. And evil seems to be surmounting the good. The evil consequences of our evil actions,

00:58:24--> 00:58:26

collectively and individually,

00:58:27--> 00:59:07

are blossoming. Unfortunately, I'd like to use a different word than blossoming, how are we going to address or redress the situation and try to bring a sense of objective morality back? Okay, so let me answer that by just going around it a little bit, and just coming from the other side. So I want to highlight a comment that sister Shireen mentioned 20 minutes ago, which was very subtle, but very important that Allah gives us freedom of choice. And that's an important phrase to understand that human beings we have freedom to choose, we don't have free will, I cannot will myself to fly, you know, as much as I would like to fly around. It's just because I will it it doesn't happen, what I

00:59:07--> 00:59:47

have before me at any point in time, our choices, and I can choose to go one way I can choose to go another way. And some choices will lead me closer to Allah, some choices will lead me further from Allah and some choices have just been on the you know, neither here nor there, you know, I'm not going to have conflicts or something toast for breakfast, you know, something like that. So now, it's important to realize that a lot of the evil in the world as you say is man meet famines and certainly there are there are of course, natural disasters and things of that. But the wars, the famines, the the state of society, where kids are on the street and literally, you know, with knives

00:59:47--> 01:00:00

and other kinds of weapons and things like that, this is a manmade problem. This is not a problem that just came out of, you know, just descended upon us. This is due to society, not investing in itself at all.

01:00:00--> 01:00:03

or rather, certain elements of society are not

01:00:04--> 01:00:39

looking after themselves, so to speak. Or you could also look at it another way certain elements of society, certain individuals were extracting all the resources from society and holding them away. We have many, many, many, you know, billionaires and people that exist in the world today who have amassed far more wealth than they could possibly spend in 100 lifetimes. But rather than invest that, and give that back and raise the state of communities, they would rather just put it in a bank account somewhere imagining that, you know, they can take it with them off the device. So we have this, we have to first of all, recognize that evil, in a lot of cases is a man made thing. And it's,

01:00:39--> 01:01:20

it's a necessary outcome, to have freedom of choice, if you want to have the ability to have freedom of choice that necessitates that evil must exist, because you have to be able to have the option to choose between doing a good action, and an evil action. Now, that said, also going back to a previous comments where, you know, people have these ideas that a lot of atheists like to have this idea that, Oh, you know, when an atheist is charitable, it actually means more. Because when the theist when the Muslim or the Christian is charitable, we're doing it because God said, so. But when the atheist gives charity, they're not expecting a reward from God. They're just doing it out of the

01:01:20--> 01:01:33

goodness of their heart. So in that way, there's somehow morally superior. Okay, fine. Well, you know, I'll take that argument. But here's the reality. When you look at the you guys might remember that there was that report in I think it was in the Times a few years ago,

01:01:34--> 01:02:10

of the theistic groups, which are the most charitable Muslims came up. Number one, the Muslims are the most charitable because we literally give millions and millions and millions and charity, and at the bottom of the table, and every single report that I've ever come across atheists are the least charitable. It's a nice idea in theory, but the reality is that you don't give they don't give charity, every single atheists I've asked about, do you actually give them charity? The answer is no, they actually don't. Or even if they do, it's literally, you know, a few pounds, there is no significant mass there. So I think a lot of people are caught up in the idea of being good, but it

01:02:10--> 01:02:41

does need to be that degree of enforcement. Now, obviously, in the sun, we have, you know, one of the pillars of Islam is the part where you have to give a certain degree of your wealth and things like that, we can go into how that lubricates society. And that brings things back. But we need to basically teach the people the idea of what we need to give out, you know, the people who are Muslim, the more people who feel, you know, or have some degree of compulsion in them to give the money back to reinvest in society that will cure a lot of issues, even if all the Muslims in the world today, if they gave this that a lot of problems could be resolved.

01:02:43--> 01:03:24

So I really do think that we need to start bringing people to obviously Islam, holistically, you know, Inshallah, that'll cure a lot of problems. To cure this one specific problem outside of Islam, I have no idea how you're going to convince people to just give away their money arbitrarily, particularly if they if they're not expecting for that to come back. There's also one of the things you'll you and I will remember as well, you said, when we went to Africa, that obviously there's another theistic group there as well, people were giving in charity, but they gave not to the poor that they gave to the institutions. And we went to places where there were magnificent buildings of

01:03:24--> 01:04:00

worship, literally surrounded by people who were living in essentially shanty towns. So there also needs to be that accountability and awareness of look, where are you giving you money as Muslims Alhamdulillah, we can just give directly to the port, we don't have to give to the mom or someone like that, or we don't need a third party person to record. This is how much we can is between us and our great our Creator knows. That's an important thing as well to be reminded that at the end of the day, the person on the receiving end of the charity, they don't care why you gave them the money. They're just happy for for the health of the resource, they don't care. Are you only giving

01:04:00--> 01:04:33

it to me because you're a Muslim, and your God told me and I want it from the atheists, because he's doing out of the goodness of their heart, mate, I'm giving you, you know, help here. They're just going to take it whichever way and they're just going to say thank you for it, it doesn't matter why you're doing so until people start realizing that this mindset that other ideologies promote of no give it to the institution that the institution grow, forget the societies, or you should only just do it out of the goodness of your heart, not because there's a bigger, wider benefit. I don't think that's that's going to change. So as Muslims, we need to be a lot more active in our data, and be

01:04:33--> 01:04:58

able to confidently explain that look, this makes a lot more sense because it actually works. You know, you can come up with your pipe dreams and examples of what might be better in theory, but in reality, this is what actually works. And this is what Islam teaches. And this is what you should be doing if you actually care about a better future rather than the idea of a better future. Okay, actually, just one thing

01:05:00--> 01:05:02

The atheist. He's given charity because

01:05:03--> 01:05:08

of the goodness, the atheist doesn't know how to define good in the first place. Yeah.

01:05:09--> 01:05:13

Well, there was a Secondly, what's not to say that he's just giving just to feed his own ego?

01:05:15--> 01:05:27

Okay, yeah. So the argument that the maybe given just say that I want to accept money from an atheist, because they're not doing it for the purpose of a God actually, he's doing for the purpose of his own self, his own selfish needs.

01:05:28--> 01:05:31

He wants to feel that he wants to feel good. So

01:05:33--> 01:06:11

if a person says that, then that's, that's a flawed argument. So that that's where the difference in Islam is, because we always taught, give them your right hand and your left hand doesn't know what you're giving sort of thing. So that that way, you know, it's to try and reduce the ego, the importance of who we are, or say, look, I've got money, look, see, look at me, I've got so much money I'm giving you here and everywhere. So it's an ego. And we sort of didn't know that, that can then diminish what rewards we might get. It may not. But, you know, sometimes, it says that we should show what we're giving. So it might encourage others. But then the main point is, we give

01:06:11--> 01:06:54

secretly, so that, like I said, the left hand doesn't know what our right hand is doing. So that, you know, this way, we can benefit. And we're doing it for our humble, humbleness and trying to get the best reward from our Creator. So it's trying to plan for our next life, you know, because we, as Muslims who understand Islam, know that this is a temporary life. And what we have here, we're just custodians, even the money we have. We're just custodians of it. And I think I can't remember the exact Hadith or whatever it is check was Sima to say we were, I think was the prophet muhammad sallallahu Sallam and his wife and they had some meeting are trying to give power away and said all

01:06:54--> 01:07:02

we're only getting reward once we give that last bit away or something like that. You might be able to. Yes, we'd like that that hadith.

01:07:03--> 01:07:05

Yeah, so the hadith is that

01:07:08--> 01:07:09

I first remember that

01:07:10--> 01:07:19

they had an animal, and that most of it was given away. And they kept a little bit left. And then I showed her the ally said that most of it is gone.

01:07:20--> 01:07:28

And the Prophet responded to her the most of it is amazing. Yes, yeah. Most of his remaining so you know, give it away. My charity.

01:07:31--> 01:07:54

Okay, brilliant. Okay, I think we're drawing very close towards the end of the show. And so let's get a few last reflections from the panel. On this topic, of course, we're talking about the problem of evil. It was a problem because we ended up doing this in two parts. That was a problem. But the evil itself has been a

01:07:56--> 01:08:19

recognizable factor in many people. Either questioning their faith massively, or actually postulating leaving the faith. Okay, so this is why we've been discussing this issue. And I think that just now need to, of course, we've got Jim shades now going to another scholar on what is

01:08:21--> 01:08:40

the next generation next generation, next generation of gym shady, shady team. And so the real issue for us was to facilitate Of course, this discussion will not It's not like a bottomless pit when you start picking up on it. But generally speaking,

01:08:41--> 01:08:42

can we say,

01:08:44--> 01:08:48

Gem shaker you occupied? No, no, I'm still here. You're a

01:08:51--> 01:08:56

good father, which is being that's good. That's good. We can say that's good.

01:08:57--> 01:09:03

And collectively, humanity will say that's good. My son is not respecting my privacy. That's a very evil Yeah.

01:09:06--> 01:09:07

It's evil

01:09:12--> 01:09:14

not evil at this age.

01:09:19--> 01:09:31

Okay, so let's just sort of round this up and then define, you know, the problem of evil. Okay, so Jim shade you want to go or do you want we're seeing to go first.

01:09:32--> 01:09:38

You know, the chef's always going to give like the PA answer. So I'm gonna give like the small answer, and then I'll leave the chef.

01:09:40--> 01:09:59

I just want so I just want to make one comment that I don't think we've really discussed that. At the end of the day, you know, Why do we exist? We exist obviously, you know, to worship Allah subhanaw taala. There is something that Allah Subhana Allah has promised us at the end of it, which is Jana, which is paradise, which is eternal bliss, so long as we conform to certain rules and things like that and we cope with

01:10:00--> 01:10:01

difficulties that are thrown our way.

01:10:03--> 01:10:16

People that have had difficulties thrown your way, you can use these and we're talking to start to use these as a stepping stones to get closer that there are maybe some levels that you cannot reach. Unless you persevere with the difficulties that are thrown your way.

01:10:19--> 01:10:53

You know, ultimate, ultimately the question that I asked people that have this problem is listen, do you want paradise for free? Do you expect paradise for free? A lot of people seem to have this idea that well, I don't live in a perfect world. I don't live in a world that's free from disease from x, y, and z. Therefore, I'm just going to deny God altogether. So come on, bro. That's not the way it works. Just because things not the way that you like it to be, or you want it to be doesn't mean that that's not a future that is coming or is promised, if that makes sense. Fundamentally, do you want paradise for free? Anyone who wants paradise for free? I'm sorry, I don't know where you got

01:10:53--> 01:11:03

this idea from. It's some it's an exceptional reward and it needs to be earned. And it's earned by persevering. persevering.

01:11:12--> 01:11:19

Article offy Baraka laughing, that's fantastic. That's a great way of rounding up your contribution. They're

01:11:20--> 01:11:22

not just in the home, but to

01:11:26--> 01:11:33

get a bit of rounding up from you on the issue of evil. And I mean, it's all up yet. So

01:11:35--> 01:12:05

what I would say is that, I mean, what I've benefited most from our discussion this evening is that it's a reminder for me that, you know, when Allah tells us, you know, are we necessarily the robic of the Hekmati? We're more edital Hasina, which I did, that he, the cool people call people to the path of Allah, okay? With the revelation that's been given to you with wisdom, okay, and debate with them in the very best way, with a fine with a fine admonition if necessary. That when we speak to people,

01:12:06--> 01:12:23

this is something very important as well to Muslims, and they kind of fall off the edge. We can have a moral argument with them as well a moral debate or argument, moral debates. So for example, the prophet Arisa Salam, on occasions would

01:12:24--> 01:12:27

morally admonished companions.

01:12:28--> 01:12:41

Instead of just saying, you know, a person might say, oh, fear Allah, fear Allah, remember the hereafter remember the punishment of Allah or seek the Jannah companion, he came to the Prophet and he says, Hello. instead ask, give me permission to commit Zina.

01:12:42--> 01:13:03

So the Prophet alayhi salam didn't just simply say to him, fear Allah, this is haram. You know, we'll attack Rosina, Allah says, Don't come near Xena. The Prophet admonished him with a moral argument. Saying that, are you happy that this would be for your mother? Will you be happy for your system? And he said, No, of course not. Then he realized the moral,

01:13:04--> 01:13:21

the moral kind of stand on that issue. So for us as Muslims, we have so many ways of speaking to people. It's not just you know, commanding them go off your five press. If you find a Muslim, who's kind of falling off the rails, okay? They want to have another life.

01:13:22--> 01:13:42

Sometimes you need to take that moral route with them to say okay, so what life do you want, you know, what paths you made, you found something that I haven't found. And then you can bring the of course Islamic superiority and the beauty in the morals and ethics that Allah has given to us.

01:13:44--> 01:14:06

And I think this is one of the you know, the good things that we should remind ourselves with as Muslims we can be, have many feathers in our cat in how we're going to give Dawa. It's not about just give the here's the Quran, the Quran fear Allah know, on all levels, Ally's region has given us the tools to deal with mankind in correcting them to that what is best for them in this life and

01:14:07--> 01:14:25

mashallah, Mashallah. Okay, so, problem of evil is not really a problem. It is a solution for mankind. It's a solution, guys, if we didn't have evil, we wouldn't even be talking today. We wouldn't be giving dower we'd be sleeping or hiding away from

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hiding away and waiting for the inevitable death to occur. And we probably wishing death. Is that really the case? Can we sum it up like that?

01:14:38--> 01:14:40

Brother Muhammad, and for those

01:14:41--> 01:15:00

what I'd like us. I think, again, like I said before, I don't think evil is the problem so much. It's what we do with it or how we how we treat it, how we take it and then from how we grow from it and take it so it's being a believer. There.

01:15:00--> 01:15:40

If you've got a handler, we're in the best situation, if there's a true believer, you take the evil as being a lesson, something to learn from and build from and get closer to the Creator. And I think what we need to do is, you know, when we're doing the data and things like that, is not focused on the evil, but focus on focus on things, which you have to like in sales, you have to talk to the person, talk to the customer get down to know, understand where they're coming from, so what they're looking for, and things like that, and then talk to him about that side, but not to sort of say, well, you got to do the five pillars, you got to do this, this, this and this, but, you know, you've

01:15:40--> 01:16:17

got to get to what, what, you know, turns him on, yeah, like, what starts him up and things like that. So to try and understand that, and then work with the, with all the things that Allah has given us in the Quran and the Sunnah, and things like that to try and show them what Islam is not convinced them, we can't convince them, but try and show them what Islam is and show them what things they can understand. It's no point just talking to an atheist and straight out saying, you know, God has given us this and show this and you can look from where they're coming from and try and understand this side of it, and then overcome with that inshallah. Inshallah.

01:16:18--> 01:16:19


01:16:22--> 01:16:48

those bite Yes, I think everybody has covered is really, really well, I think the the main important thing is to understand the whole concept of what Islam torus. And when you all are discussing about this always reminds me of the video, the use of and Mama Thompson did in that will in in New Zealand, when you guys were on a tour, and you sort of like to recite this verse will mark all up to

01:16:49--> 01:16:49


01:16:55--> 01:17:36

And in no way did I create didn't mankind except to worship me. So I think by knowing the purpose, and you know, Allah is and his characteristic, his attributes, and then you will understand the whole thing that happened, escalate as a reason for it. And I just want to end last point is about jumpship Talk about there is a degree of enforcement is needed. And that's why you know, people say why Islam is so restrictive. Now, hold on, it's actually the degree of enforcement is required, because there's a nature of a human being, just like, why we have the speed limit, why we have to have a police that monitors what, why, why, why we need to have all of that, because, unfortunately,

01:17:36--> 01:18:16

a human being if there's no enforcement, we wouldn't do it. And this is what the atheists always talk about, you know, you don't need it because, you know, this has to be good. Everybody just has to be good. But in reality, it's not how we human beings function. And that's just from last week from inshallah. Well, that's, that's very beautiful. It's, thank you very much for everyone's contribution. Giselle. camallo. Hair, Allah subhanaw taala. Put it on your Amazon and brothers and sisters who contributed out there, Abu hood, she's been an amazing Salwa or shall we say, a bull? Probably I'm not sure if it's a man or a woman anyway. Sunhwa.

01:18:19--> 01:18:52

Yeah, Muhammad Mahara is doing it says is a weekly demand boost. Article Lo Fi comm is it's an A man boosts for us. What do you think we're doing this? We're doing it because we want to challenge ourselves to get closer to Allah subhanho wa taala. So we want to have these discussions, what I called back in the day discussions, we were having these discussions in the 90s and 2000s, we in the in the year 2005 and 10. And then suddenly, there's been like a vacuum

01:18:53--> 01:19:20

and it's an inexplicable vacuum. You know, maybe it's explained by these things. And these, that I'm Yeah, I mean, but whatever reason is, there's been a vacuum and we need to bring back this discussion, real talks, real talks with Islam. That's what it's going to be called from now. Shala May Allah subhanaw taala reward you all abundantly?

01:19:21--> 01:19:23

Brother usif that was from

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Muhammad Maha and there's a few people who want to come on in with us we might even invite them on actually on the forthcoming shows.

01:19:34--> 01:19:59

Thank you shakes for this amazing discussion. These questions on good and evil are asked by Muslims and non Muslims is necessary for Muslims in trying times to understand it from Shareen. I agree. I totally agree with you. We miss Zach here. We miss Zach here. Dr. Zach is around he's always doing stuff online. We maybe we'll call him Dr. Zack yet another day, too.

01:20:00--> 01:20:22

discuss with us. The beauty in the way that you will give Tao is unparalleled. Mashallah. Well, I mean, what if you weren't here we wouldn't be given our there's just as much your responsibility, and you get rewarded for it. Lots of questions, comments about Jim shades, beautiful children, and his cats

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allow them to die in the state of Islam, beautiful, beautiful, pure Islam.

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Lots and lots of mazing questions and comments, keep them coming next week, we're going to be joining you at the 10 o'clock show that 10am show which is talking about educating our children on next of kin. And then the, what has become now the 715 show because it's now time for Maghrib and we don't we got to hasten now to do part of our one of our prayer, you know, prayers of the day, of course, our five prayers of the day. Silikal Margaret, so we ask Allah subhanaw taala to award the award all of you brothers and sisters out there and for you to have these amazing discussions with your not yet Muslim friends and neighbors. Have them candidly and sincerely bring the beautiful

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philosophy of Allah subhanho wa Taala to light read the Quran and teach it to others because I just fluent, I just I just did something something at the sister so as to said I'm leading my friends know you and sharing your great topics. I think everyone who's watching should pass on and let their friends and relatives know as well even non Muslims to

01:21:50--> 01:22:06

interact and come on come and watch the show and be part of this participants as well Michelle and also to share to share it after we've gone off for exactly you can share it all and you know as long as it's there you share

01:22:07--> 01:22:08

that philosophy care

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for that brother Muhammad Thompson and we're gonna give a Salam alaykum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh to

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all of you guys out there. Until next week.