The Lives of Imams and more
Channel: Tom Facchine
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Hate Crime in Texas, Israeli Humiliation, Ceasefire Resolutions Imam Tom Live
Hello welcome everybody back to your Keens live stream and I am your host him I'm Tom, we had a little break. So we hope everybody else enjoyed their break too. We are just a very very short time away from Milan. So all of us are preparing for it. And we hope you're preparing for it too. As we get closer to Ramadan, we're going to try to highlight some more tips especially when it comes to our actions of the day and night. Our habit series this is very very important to building up good habits so that we can make the most out of Ramadan while they come set up. We have let's see, we have Daniela tan from Malaysia set them at the tongue. Excellent. We have a few people from Malaysia
today. So I'm at the time it's the it's of the morning for you all over there
from Bangladesh welcome or they can sit down after often DACA
all of our eastern hemisphere folks the Maldives or they can sit down with Allah. Everybody welcome to the program. Kerala very nice for us from India. Excellent. Sofia Choudry from New York why they come to sit down and have to Allah Excellent.
Who else do we have? We've got someone from Albany we've got Boston Marcia lots of adekola most of us say say it from India.
We've got Ruth Langston from Houston Texas. Welcome Ruth. I will be visiting Houston in Charlotte to order not this weekend but the following weekend. We have some programs with the University of Houston so inshallah I encourage you to come and join me Ken, Queen ebony from Ohio. Masha Allah Holly Newton from New Mexico, Allahu Akbar, a Kadri from California. Can you believe I've never been to California in my life. Everybody makes fun of me when I say that. But inshallah before too long, I'll get to see. I'll get to see the famous California saga Mulan from Mauritius. Welcome
same ammonia from Toronto. Mashallah. Very good memories of Toronto. Welcome everybody to the program.
O'Malley of Connecticut Western New saver. So, Livingston, New Jersey is a mean, I just can't help but smile every time I see how beautiful this OMA is and how diverse we are and all of our different names and cultures and languages and locations where we're off from. It can be a brown from South Carolina got another New Yorker in there. When am I coming to kayo? Good question.
Insha Allah Tada I'll be coming in late July. So if anybody actually anybody wants to reach out and do some programs insha Allah you can reach out to my email him I'm Tom [email protected] and we can set something up for when I'll be in Malaysia last time was in Malaysia absolutely loved it didn't want to leave. So I'm looking forward to being there again Inshallah, from Pakistan, masha Allah, we can sit down Pakistan's in the bed, in the house, may Allah aid you and all the people of Pakistan and all the people that I'm okay, so, transitioning on to we have a lot going on every week now. Subhan Allah, especially with our brothers and sisters in Palestine, and the constant struggle for
all of us in our prayers and our thoughts and in our activities. To attempt to aid our brothers and sisters of Palestine in any way possible. A lot has been happening in these past two weeks here in our part of the world in the United States. One thing that has been unfolding is the, let's say, an increased turn in popular perception against the occupying force of Israel, and its nefarious activities to our brothers and sisters in Palestine. And we've seen a change in American attitudes, such that cities have now taken upon themselves to pass ceasefire revolute resolutions, excuse me, Inshallah, you know, maybe they're revolutionary, but their resolutions, where they condemn the
slaughter and the genocide of Palestinian people. And even though at the city level of government, there's no mechanism for this to actually take effect or to quote unquote, do anything. This is a very, very important discursive act, right. It's a very, very important act when it comes to public advocacy, raising awareness. Right? You might not realize it, because in Muslim social media spaces, these things are very obvious to us. But when we, when we talk to other people that live in the United States, people who are not online as much are not in social media as much or don't have any Muslim connections or any Muslim relatives, or any Muslim friends, then these things, sometimes the
things that we're seeing that are so obvious to us are completely unknown to them. So every time something very public happens, like City Council's vote for a ceasefire resolution, or the ICJ court case, that's live streams on television, these sorts of things, raise the awareness of what's going on a lot and they help shape the popularity of the movement, right? Because we know very, very well
Oh, that the forces that are against us are attempting to portray the movement in various sorts of ways. Either they're trying to portray us as some sort of violent people or terrorists or things like that. Or they're trying to portray people who want the genocide to stop. As,
you know, foreign actors we've seen in the past week, different United States Congress, people, accusing people, protesters of being funded by China funded by Russia, echoing the step the statements of Putin and things of that nature, which is ridiculous, but you got it goes to show you how important publicity is positive publicity. And so we have guys in the studio have put up. We've got Chicago became the latest US city this week to seek ceasefire in the war on Gaza and the people of Palestine, the city councilors, actually it was a tie. And I believe the mayor of the city made the tie breaking vote in favor of Palestine. Chicago has a huge Palestinian community. I know
several people from the Palestinian community in in Chicago. So it was, I'm sure a very, very small but important victory for them. We've got lots of people Marcela sada Yes, yeah, Michelle actually had some friends from Mauritius, when I was studying in Medina, Fatima, Mohammed hiding himself from Trinidad, everybody else coming on one second. So that was, that was part of it. We also have another news. Unfortunately, part of why publicity is important. And publicizing and mainstreaming the struggle is important is to create consequences and awareness and protection for those people who are speaking out. Because when it is a fringe movement, when something is only, let's say, a
couple people speaking out for something, then other people feel that there's a license or that there's not going to be any consequences if they do violence to those people or hurt those people in some way. And unfortunately, we had this happen. Just this week in Austin, in Austin, there was a protest for Palestine. And a gentleman was driving home from the from the protest, he was taken out of his car, and he was stabbed. Now hamdulillah he's okay. But this is something where all of the irresponsible rhetoric that we see in the media that people have rightfully condemned from the President, to the Secretary of State on down to the so called free press that we have, which is
really dominated by corporate interests, when they repeat things and they portray people who are advocating for justice, if they portray us as terrorists, they portray Muslims as violent they portray Arabs as violent. They actually give a green light to people to take matters into their own hands and commit violence against us. And this has happened a few times now, why they come to settlement after law, Valerie, and to Alia already said, I'm not going to be cut. Right. So this has happened a few times it happened with what are the six year old boy in Chicago, nonetheless, who was stabbed by his landlord, someone who he used to refer to as uncle, because this individual was
ginned up he was provoked, he was incited by the inflammatory irresponsible rhetoric that people were spreading on the news. And so we suspect that this is the same sort of case here in Austin, where someone who was watching the news got incited by the hateful rhetoric, and the demonization of Arabs and Muslims, to the point where he was moved to violence to actually drag someone out of their car and stop them. But we believe that Allah subhanaw taala is powerful over everything. Certainly, the brother, May Allah bring him ease and a speedy recovery. And certainly he has his reward for being brave in front of it all. And one of the things that I liked the best was that his picture
from the hospital bed, I'm not sure if we have it in the studio, but his picture from the hospital bed, he's still got his graffia on in the hospital bed, and his first picture, has his fist raised in the air, may Allah strengthen him and strengthen all of us to speak out. And that's one of the things that we have tried to raise awareness about.
Yes, we have a statement here from from shareholders to the man, this must be investigate as a hate crime and America needs to wake up to our anti Palestinian bigotry all over. It's anti.
It's anti Palestinian bigotry. It's anti out of bigotry. It's anti Muslim bigotry.
Want us out I want to set up.
So we have
it's very important. This is why publicity is very important. It's very important to speak up because if we are silent, we actually create a dangerous environment. We create a dangerous environment for everybody else who is speaking up the more people speak up and the more people raise their voices which Allah subhanaw taala expects of us anyway, because he said that we are people who stand up for justice, even if it's like
As ourselves, and he said that what distinguishes us as a, the best OMA that he's ever sort of made or brought forth from humanity is the fact that we command the good and forbid the evil. If there's good, we're going to try to contribute to our society to ensure that the good succeeds. And if there's evil going on our society, then we're going to stand up to it, and we're going to do whatever we can to stop it. That is what makes us the best Oma. And that's our responsibility. So if only a few people are doing it, then that emboldens other people to try to punish them to try to hurt them in some way. But if we all do it, if we all do as much as we can, then this creates an
environment that's actually safer for everybody.
And finally, when it comes to the previous, the previous couple of weeks, there was one particular image that went viral. And we'll, I think we'll bring it up here if the guys in the studio habit, have a date a detainee from Gaza. Now, this is the second time that something like this has happened, where the occupation forces have attempted to
put online, things that are boasting things that are attempting to humiliate Palestinians, they're attempting to humiliate the people of Gaza, and it blows up in their face and it backfires. Because Allah subhanaw taala told us that Allah can raise who he wills, and he debases who he wills, He honors who he wills, and he humiliates, who he wills while they come to sit down Angel, are they gonna sit down everybody else who joined the program? Right, this is something that's in the hands of Allah, you might think if you're that soldier who actually posted this on his social media, he thought that he was some tough guy that he was going to look like he was lording over or controlling
or dominating the Palestinians. But look at the posture of our brother here, look at his defiance, look at the look that in his face, you can tell who has honor in this photo. And who doesn't. And of course, this photo went around the world in no time. And it became one of the many symbols of the Palestinian resistance to what is going on the horrible genocide against them that the will and the strength of the Palestinian, the Palestinian people will not be broken. And actually, the person who posted this actually ended up taking it down in shame. May Allah give him what he deserves.
So with that, I think we're going to turn now we'll turn to the second part of our program, we have a very special program today, it's a little bit different from how I normally run it, because Yaqeen Institute, you know that what we do is data research. So what we mean by data research is that we are taking two things that are usually separated, right, we have research over here, and then we have data, and we're putting them together. And so part of our research is everything that goes into these live stream events. It's everything that goes into our papers, that everything that goes into our curriculum and our books. But another thing that we do is we actually do research and reports.
And a very, very important and crucial report has been released by Athena institute this week. That's called the Imams report. And as a recovering Imam, I can definitely attest to the significance of this report. The personal and professional lives of Muslim religious leaders in North America. There were for at least four scholars who participated in this in this report. We're going to invite two of them on the program now. Dr. Mohammed Abu Qatada and Dr. It was mental energy. If we can bring them into the studio, we're going to have a long extended discussion about the findings of this report. Before finishing with some daily habits and then a preview of the new
book that we're going to start in preparation for Ramadan. So welcome to the program salaam aleikum enough to Allah.
Allah, thank you for having us. Welcome so much to the program now as again as a as a recovering Mmm. Like I can't tell you how much I appreciate this report. It's something that I don't think it's an under I don't think that it's
I don't think it's what's the word I'm looking for an exaggeration to say that we have very serious problems when it comes to the masajid in North America and when it comes to staffing and keeping qualified talented religious leadership.
And there are several reasons for why this is and it creates a bad situation all around bad situation for masjids. They've got a revolving door of Imams, or they have no Imam at all. It creates a bad situation for emails, they lead sort of very unfulfilled existences and bad outcomes for the community that has to deal with this revolving door and maybe a beat up email or no email at all. So the significance of this report is cannot be exaggerated. I think that it's a perfect timing as we look at
especially with what's going on Palestine, we ask ourselves, how did we get here, we don't have the capacity to do very much we don't have the capacity to stop what's going on? I believe personally, and I'd like your opinion on this, but I have an inkling that you're going to agree with me, that part of our lack of capacity is the sub optimal status of our masajid and our religious leadership. And that's not to throw shade at anybody who has credentials or when studied. But that has to do with the way that our students of knowledge and our imams are being used or being misused in the facilities that we have across the country. So without further ado, that's just my own suppositions.
We're going to get into the report, we'll go section by section, we have we dropped the link in the chat, definitely hope that you read the report in your own free time. And for everybody who's watching and listening, we have, we're gonna have open q&a with the researchers after this is over. So please, you have questions, send them in the chat, and we will have them answered inshallah. So the first section has to do with who are religious leaders. You talked about demographics, you talk about educational background, employment status, and implications. Dr. Smith, give us a sense of what some of the findings were, what are some of the surprises? Or what are sort of things that you
expected to find when it comes to who our religious leaders are?
Spent? That was all of a sudden, so no. But secondly, I'm Tom. So just to give a little bit of perspective first, before we just dive right into that, I do want to speak about why this matters? Why do we do this research in the first place? And that will lay up my answer for your question is actually that that who are religious leaders is like the first thing that we need to figure out when we talk about, hey, you know what, there are troubles with the massage, right? There are troubles with the institutions in the community with who is employed to lead those communities. It's often Imams, it has religious directors as executive directors. And so I want to just start with a
definition that religious leaders have the very broad term, we don't want to speak only about Imams, because people who have sought traditional knowledge, serve their communities in all kinds of different ways. And so that's maybe I'll just start with this idea of religious leadership refers to scholars who might be an imam roles, Executive Director roles.
Resident Scholar roles might be chaplains and be independent scholars might be instructors and seminaries and universities. This is what we're speaking about. And humbled by the blessing of Allah azza wa jal in our study of 205, approximately North American scholars, we find that our Imams and scholars are incredibly diverse. Number one is that they're highly, highly educated. And I know that as a Muhammad and I have talked about this quite a bit, there's a there's a, just this kind of adopted kind of traditionally, you know, I started in Egypt, right? And the idea is that, hey, you know, only if you can't pack it right, in medicine and law, right, then you have to go to blue
tissue era, because Islamic law program, no, the same as in many other countries. And actually, when you look in America, it's quite the opposite, that those who serve in these roles, the vast majority of them have, I think, about 9080 90% have college degrees, like from secular institutions, as well as 80% have these religious degrees. So they got dual degrees. Engineers, got doctors, we got lawyers who became Imams and scholars. We got people from all different ethnic backgrounds. We have we have female scholars as well. And that's a growing tradition right under law in North America. So who are they they are different races. They are different ethnicities with African Americans. We got
Hispanics, we got Pakistanis. And we got autumns. So Hamdulillah. In North America, we're very diverse group, theologically represented by all the Sunni traditions, but that Hebrew represented by all the different so there's a lot to unpack, but I'll just leave it at that.
That's excellent. Dr. Mohammed, give us a sense of what are the implications for that? What is it? What does it mean that American Imams or religious leaders leave abroad are more highly educated than maybe other parts of the Muslim world?
So, you know, you and, Tom, you mentioned earlier, when you come to spaces like this, when you come to conventions, conferences, this type space that your team and others organize?
Despite the challenges out there, we feel very overwhelmed. We feel very encouraged, very empowered.
And yet, on the other hand, when we come home, when we come to our communities sometimes will come to our local centers, to our youth spaces, we can feel very alone and isolated, that we're not ready to face these enormous pressure against the Muslim individual Muslim families. And in many ways, one of the things that we explore in this report is that a big part of that gap lies at religious leadership and its broad sense men and women different roles, including executive capacity. And that that's a real beauty of our findings on the education of these religious leaders is that many of the problems
and Ukraine has looked at research in this in the past that are important to Muslim families.
In North America, and worldwide are multidisciplinary problems. And their solutions are therefore multidisciplinary in order for our institutions to be able to face them. They need leaders that are grounded in the tradition that have studied Islam deeply. But they also need the ability to relate to congregations, to an incredibly diverse set of stakeholders, young and old men and women, all across the world and all across their, their, their network. And a really encouraging thing about that education is it shows the potential in the North American context, that there is a set of highly talented people that feel motivated to solve these problems, and are grounded in this
training. In some sense, it would actually be a great tragedy, then if our institutions fail to retain and hold on to this group and empower them, because it would seem that the training is demonstrably greater and broader than past research of past decades, and is encouraging and hopeful in facing the very real and overwhelming challenges all around us.
Not as extreme, extremely significant. So what I take from your commentary is that we're loaded with talent.
We actually we have unique problems. But the good news is that we are in a position where we have the talent pool to potentially address and solve these problems, which seems to be a really nice segue to the next section of the of the of the report, which is what are the tasks that Imams or religious leaders are find themselves doing? And is there an alignment or a misalignment? With those two things? I guess we'll get your your comment first. Dr. Mohamed.
He also interestingly, as we look at the breadth of job responsibilities and tasks, I think a lot of us know anecdotally that imams are asked to do a lot of things, and broader than Imams religious leaders in general. And as you look at the study, you know, those tasks go well beyond teaching, preaching, issuing religious rulings, to other needs of the community spanning counseling, administration, outreach, and dowel work, youth work, answering questions.
And, of course, religious practice of prayer, taking care of funerals, marriages, and so on. It is in and of itself a very broad role. And an element of that is representative of the breadth of what our communities need, and what our Dean addresses in its comprehensiveness.
A challenging finding, though, the report is that we find that religious leaders are frequently asked to serve in areas that are stretched beyond their capacity, both in terms of time, and in terms of the areas they feel most competent. I have put this in a light hearted way and an anecdote of one extraordinarily senior PhD level decades of experience, Imam that was, you know, sharing why he did not apply to a particular Imam position. And someone was asking him, you know, you're, you're super qualified, why don't you apply to this, and the person shared, you know, that job description is not looking for any men, they are searching for a profit, right? Speaking about how broad and
overwhelming those demands are. And so, you know, a big theme throughout our report is that we really want to encourage our listeners today and those that they impact that we really believe that everyone has a piece of this pie can help move the centers and the religious leaders closer to our ideal. Some of our listeners may be in the position where they can think scrutinize, advise those job descriptions, think about how to staff and you know, we're happy to engage in discussions to support that as well. But even much more granular and on the ground. Sometimes when you see a person and remember little or a little bit distracted, perhaps after a prayer service, or you see one of
our lemon leaders coming out of the office and perhaps looking away or a little bit, it may be something that they're carrying, that they're not even able to share with their own families. It may be a very sensitive counseling situation and may be stepping away from a funeral service where they had to be very present. For that loss. It's only going to occur once for
for that family, and you know the smallest things about just knowing well, maybe just advising, helping that person, maybe get a little bit of airspace, or maybe that's not the best time to debate whether the Hadith that was used in last lecture was value for now, those little things really make differences in people's lives and reminds us that religious leaders and community servants overall are human beings, right? They are human beings. And we're all responsible for taking care of them and their families so that they can serve and give our communities their very best for a long time.
So many crucial points upon a lot. And and I think one one point I know, myself and a bunch of colleagues, we actually humorously save to our phones, all of these sort of exaggerated job descriptions that you know, mashallah Tabata Cola, they involve sort of everything under the sun that you could possibly imagine. And some of those tasks, like you said, I mean, the nature of religious leadership is as quite broad. But some of those tasks are even outside of that, such as, I know, emails that make their own fliers, for events. I know Imams that do administrative tasks, or, you know, they hunt and peck on a computer, things that could be easily handed off to somebody else.
So an implication I feel of what you're saying is that, you know, if you're in a community and I have seen communities like this, where the volunteer engagement and the support level is so high, that you've got other people that are actively looking for what tasks can they take off the Imams hands, or the religious leaders hands that really can free him up? And I think that's sort of the perspective here to free him up to focus on what he's really qualified to do that nobody else can do.
Dr. Smith, I really want to get there's a section within this section specifically about counseling. You mentioned counseling is a hot topic among Imams and colleagues and murshid goers in general. Is counseling something that a lot of imams are doing? Is it something that imams are sort of find themselves doing anyway, without any sort of qualifications? What did you sort of find there?
Yeah, exactly. So it's a strange North American phenomena, it seems like because when you go to any of the Middle Eastern countries and universities, there's nothing about counseling, no one goes ever. I don't know if you ever went to Medina and the message and asked the sheikh for some, you know, how to help with your marriage or raising your kids, right. But the vast majority of religious scholars in all capacities, not just imams are asked to counsel
frequently, is putting it lightly. I mean, it's almost like 24/7, a very small percentage, so they don't counsel who set really hard limits. But what was fascinating was of all the tasks that Imams reported doing, from administrative tasks to youth work, to speaking to teaching to whatever might be the tasks that they actually enjoyed the least, and felt the least skilled that was counseling, both marriage counseling and mental health counseling. So it's a strange mismatch of something which is a high demand skill, and one that they don't want to do and don't feel very good deal.
So that's kind of a recipe right? For a lot of problems of shout out. We have some wonderful other Imams we're doing work in this space. You know, Dr. Pamela is right one of those who's written his entire dissertation on this topic of the mounds of counseling, or Dr. Anwar Hussain has been doing this work. But the point I want to make with this is that the Imam becomes a trusted figure every year or the scholar that he's in a community. So when you're an Imam, I remember the first day I was in the mountain, no one comes with their life problems to me. But after the first month, and they get to know you, some families come six months later, more families come a year later, the whole
community is at your door. And it's 24/7. They report it's 10 o'clock at night, it's five in the morning, it's two in the morning. So that also bleeds into irregularity of schedules. And that's one of the issues that Mohammed Mohammed pointed out. So yeah, that was going to be my next question. Right. So then, you know, work life balance has to be extremely difficult workload, managing workload has to be extremely different, difficult. Dr. Mohamed, what did the data sort of suggest when it came to workload and that sort of that sort of balance.
So the data really showed us a spectrum in terms of the volume of work and in terms of the impact of that volume, so a number of Imams these duties are vastly overstretching them and I should say religious leaders, imams and the other job titles that Dr. Rothman mentioned earlier.
And others are at a full time capacity or or even lower, right and so there's a spectrum there. But a challenge is that the irregularity of the schedule, even for those that have a little better situation in terms of the volume of work, is a constraint system stressor not only on the religious leader themselves, but on the family as well.
And we explore both of those in different chapters of the report.
The irregularity of the schedule is not something that we suggest is entirely avoidable in all of these roles. Some of these roles are not traditional nine to five roles. And our findings are that the religious leaders have stepped into that our understanding, and willing to work with that, where it becomes difficult to navigate is, for example, those that are working seven days a week, or those that are consistently working, always when people are off. And so they essentially never intersect or infrequently intersect, I should say, with their children or their spouses, most of whom tend to, you know, be associated with schools or other things that are going through a traditional kind of
Monday through Friday, nine to five type schedule. So that's, that's something where not only support with the types of
tasks and time that you mentioned to offload the volume of the work but a special attention to the scheduling to make sure that at least a day is blocked off. So that and to really scrutinize the schedule to look for those times that children or family are traditionally available to ensure you know that something that works for that family unit is available and make sure that that father or mother is present for that important and for us that Islamic duty and obligation as well. Well, since we've already gone there, let's go there with the family life. And it's an entire section of the report. Dr. Ceman? What are the family lives of religious leaders? Like? Are they falling apart?
are they holding on what is it like
hamdullah this chapter actually was, in some ways a breath of fresh air.
Not, you know, keeping in mind some of the challenges we've spoken about irregular irregular schedules, some of the burnout they're facing, just to give you like an idea, like half of them take one day off a week, 15% take no days off a week, actually, the vast majority, about 70% of our Imams were in like, decent, like there were satisfied in their marriages. So that was a really, really big thing about unfortunately, a quarter of them, which is actually not trivial. One in four, reported being in kind of dissatisfied marriages, and a lot of that was correlated with things. Were not all of it. Right. But But part of it was so Oh, I think we're up here. So yeah, not so much data. Yeah,
so 85% of them are married. But like I said, So those who are married Imams have a lot of kids. So that was one out actually fascinating finding that I think about a third of them have four kids or more. So I'm gonna they're in generally good marriages, but there's a lot of stress and pressure right on their spouses. And that goes both ways. So whether it's a female scholar, right and her husband right or an Imam, right, and his wife, they are bearing a lot of burden. And just I really want to just just put a shout out to like the wives of Imams, and scholars are incredibly patient.
In in, in putting up with a lot of the challenges of the communities put forth that almost like they're the last one to get time from the scholar because everyone else is stealing that time because when he's off of work, it's like eight o'clock emergency 10 o'clock emergency, Saturday, emergency Sunday emergency, right. So hamdulillah the marital lives were okay. But there's a lot of stressors that communities need to be aware of, and trying to do their best to be supportive, and recognizing that they're not married to the masjid. They're married to actually their spouses.
So Dr. Mohammed, how that translate into mental health and well being what did you find for religious leaders.
chapter shares with us, you know, some positive elements and some elements for further attention and concern. On one hand, a number of religious leaders have mechanisms for coping with the stress and are connected with good support networks such as mentorship
in the career or advice in their personal lives. But a significant number of religious leaders meet the criteria that would, you know, indicate screening the screening criteria for potentially suffering from mental health issues such as anxiety, or stress or depression. And stress is the main contributor to these challenges, but we've spoken about several others as well from the irregularity the work schedule to workload to other potential contributors that are causing mental health challenges and burnout, right, which is ultimately a major contributor. In fact, many Imams anecdotally reported as the number one contributor, perhaps to the revolving door of talent that
many of us have, sadly experienced in Islamic institutions in North America.
For the loss of this talent,
something that we speak about in the study is referring to
other professions that deal with so called helping professions where they're helping others serving others, even sometimes in very high stress or emergency situations such as law enforcement, counseling professions, or medical and care professions. And study there on burnout has really shown a correlation between effective support systems, and better retention of these professionals. And we really wanted to lift that up, again, lifting it up in a way that everybody has a piece of that pie. So for those that are specialists, or decision makers, or policymakers or board members, you know, something was suggested to reporters really thinking about this and thinking about how to actively
create and support mechanisms to promote the well being and keep an eye on these religious leaders in a very professional sense, that respects their personal boundaries, but helps combat burnout and combat mental health issues in the profession. And I know this is a difficult topic, it's not easy for us to admit that a segment of religious leaders are are suffering from those mental health issues. But we really made it a point in the report that it was important to name that, first of all, so those that are struggling, know that they are not struggling alone. And they do not need to struggle alone. And those that want to lift the baseline of this profession, start to connect with
that help promote that quality in these families. And again, everybody has a piece of that pie. So even if that's not my lane,
when I recognize as Dr. Rothman said that the contract is not with the religious leaders family, that they're not married to the institution, and I'm in a position where I'm able to just, you know, give a religious leaders child a social opportunity, or just have dinner without, you know, talking about, you know, the the work aspect, if you will, and every weekend and evening and so on that, that we suggest in this report is a step towards the promotion of best practices in this field and the betterment of mental health and burnout, prevention. That's very profound. And I would imagine, from my experience, and my sort of network that
religious leaders are not going to Well, let's put it this way, religious leaders are probably going to blame themselves first, and not necessarily recognize that they have mental health consequences. Maybe they would, but I feel like there would be also a lot of religious guilt sort of associated with Oh, am I falling short in my duty? This is my community, this is my Miss sheet. I have to you know, take up the mantle myself, and I have to be everything for everybody. And if not, maybe I'm in it for the wrong reasons. Or maybe, you know, I'm just not cut out for this or this sort of thing. Is that something that that you feel like? Well, I'm not sure if that was outside of the scope of
your of your report. But was that something that came up in your conversation with religious leaders?
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this came up both in the data and and in conversation. So in the data that shows up in for instance, imams admitting that they don't take a lot of time off, so they just skip their days off because the community keeps meeting them. It also showed up and them admitting they don't take time out for their physical health or for their emotional well being a large number of them. I remember, distinctly like learning from one Imam years ago, he said, Look, I don't care what's happening in the world. He's like, I do community volleyball from this time to this time, he's like, it's my one chance to escape and just relax and just to be like a guy in the community.
And the fact that many Imams have not learned how to set those boundaries is a problem that they need to learn. But also the communities that are recognized, the Imam will almost never say no, because by nature, they want to always help. And so they'll, they'll just ignore their own needs at times, if it is desire to give, and then they're the ones who actually end up suffering because of it. And then like Muhammad mentioned, and they want to leave and when they leave everybody's community rights. Well, that's the perfect transition to looping back to chapter three, which is the satisfaction, right. Our How are religious leaders in our communities doing Are they satisfied or
they're leaving? What is sort of the data uncovered there? Dr. Mohamed?
So it's an interesting and complex story.
You know, to give you an anecdote that was hard to reconcile the part of the data.
I remember a room in a large convention with hundreds of Muslim leaders convened and the question was asked, How many of you will
would like for your child to serve as an amen. And not one imam in the room raise their hand, everyone that raised their hand was not actively a religious leader in the profession. On the other hand, our data showed that a huge proportion of our sample, the religious leaders that we studied in this report, aspired and hoped for their children to serve in their possession. And we spent a long time exploring this. But actually, I think the tension between those two stories is very much the story of the job satisfaction, right that this population remains positive remains aspirational, knows that they're working a noble work, and a number are satisfied and pleased to be able to be
working there. But that's not by any means 100%, and even those that are satisfied are struggling with very real issues. And it may be that despite their satisfaction, they may not be able to continue for factors outside of their control, and many of them being avoidable factors like finances, or professional development, or boundaries, or job duties, things that are solvable, as opposed to unsolvable problems that might force one from one's profession. And so, again, that tension between those two stories, for me was the theme of job satisfaction to really appreciate that despite all of these pressures, it is not at all a doom and gloom scenario, there is a lot of
positivity in the community and in the religious leaders. On the other hand, it is important to name that there is an urgency and importance to this work, that without substantive change in the profession, if we care about these institutions, care about religious leadership, and care about the outcomes that we want, that despite this satisfaction, that there are a number of people that are very much considering leaving the profession, and others that will quite frankly, be forced to by these factors, without changes for us to promote the retention of talent, and the increase in capacity and desired outcomes of our semuc institutions.
As a doctor as man, how much of the job satisfaction or lack thereof, or the reason for
you know, the revolving door is compensation. I know that was one chapter that we haven't touched, what does compensation look like for religious leaders? Is that where it should be?
Yeah, that might be one of the most sobering chapters of the report. So
there was a number of factors that actually led to their, to their frustrations. But definitely, one of them was a feeling of not being able to make ends meet. So about half of the moms reported either not just barely making ends meet or not making enough to make ends meet. And they would report things like they would take a loan from their wife regularly in order to pay the bills. Some and by the way, one of the things that came out was it's not just about salary, was actually about the entire package that we're getting. So when you think about income, right, the median income was around 60, to 70k in the US, but again, that's a median, which doesn't make a lot of sense, because
if you're in California, that's kind of like below poverty for another part that might be good. So I really want to focus more on if perfect, you guys you guys pull this up, like this was shocking to me, half of the religious scholars in North America are either broke, or have less than $5,000 of savings. And just to connect, in my own head, I was thinking about this. Well, the nisab, to give us a cut is actually more than is more than that. So in many cases, a lot of our religious scholars were highly educated and talented professionals are actually eligible for soccer, which is actually shocking.
And if you look at this, I mean, for anyone who's a professional and it world or any other world where you have 401, k's and you have retirement plans, this is a this is a abysmal. And shockingly, this didn't matter of how old you were, it didn't matter how educated you were, these are just, I mean, you can see, I think we just talked here and stared at, it's probably, it's probably going to make people cry. But so savings is a huge part of it. But then if even if you move on to like health insurance, talk about retirement accounts, again, the vast majority, two thirds of them don't have health insurance about, again, about 60% or so don't have very dose that's number 65% don't have any
health insurance at all. And they rely upon things like a doctor in the community to volunteer and step up if their kids get sick, or something else. They don't have retirement accounts. So the long term project so a lot of them even though they love their job. If you're a 30 year old mmm, or 40 year old email and you're thinking about one day, I gotta leave this profession, you realize there's no path to leaving. And so that's one of the reasons why people will jump out of the profession, or on the flip side actually never leave the profession when they need to be able to retire with dignity. So we've got problems on both sides of this equation.
Very fascinating. Dr. Mohammad I'd also
I'd like your comments to this particular section because it seems like there's a lot there.
Yeah, there's a lot to unpack here. And let me let me comment also that we are sensitive to two realities. Number one, that the financial struggles highlighted in this study are not unique to religious leaders, we recognize that that many other
workers and professionals and families are struggling with the very real economic inequalities and wage issues and so on, in North America and beyond. And secondly, just recognizing our place in the OMA, we do recognize that North American Imams tend to be paid better. Then several reported studies of imams in other Muslim minority countries, and in many Muslim majority countries as well. So we recognize those realities, saying that was still in this very sobering chapter had to really, you know, it is an emotional topic, but to look at the data, and try to tease out how to improve this because essentially, we do not want religious leadership and our OMA the compensation to be a race
to the bottom, our focus is on North America. But in citing other Muslim minority populations, like the United Kingdom, and South Africa, there is existing work that is showing an even greater struggle at retaining religious leadership. So that's not good there. And that's not good here. Secondly, it is it is inconvenient, but important to name that in North America overall, while recognizing that individual communities may make may differ, the inability the South, the compensation is not based on an inability to pay.
This may be true in an individual community or in a particular neighborhood. And we're sensitive to that. But demographically, it is not based on an inability to pay, it is structural. And it is, therefore a decision that the Muslim community has agency on when you look at these sobering statistics and recognizing that the average North American religious leader, again has less than $5,000 in savings, does not have health insurance, coupled with the fact that the average person is married with a spouse that does not work with approximately three children. Well, regardless of what job profession, that person has, those numbers in in North America lead to only one conclusion, that
person will have to leave that profession, if they have a choice, those numbers in the overwhelming number, you know, but in the places where most Muslims live in the United States do not formulate a living wage, and certainly add more pressures as for example, children grow educational needs, and then ultimately looking towards retiring with dignity, with dignity. So this is a difficult topic, but it's an important one. And at the end, the variables as they are overall, really don't serve the desired outcomes of anyone that's not going to bring the institutions and the Muslim families the type of talent retention that can deal with these complex problems. Imam Tom, the type of very real
challenges that you bring us together as a community for in this organism in this space. Let me tell you, the folks on the other side, the morally ungrounded evil people trying to make a living off of demonizing Islam and Muslims, those people are not working on their spare time, and they're not making pennies. And they're not unfocused in their evil approach. Therefore, it is unlikely, as I said that they can be countered without focus, talented and well organized efforts, you know, within our legal rights and means. And so, you know, in our implications, we really try to explore a lot of different angles on this. So that although it's an overwhelming systemic issue, we really encourage
people to think about how they can take one step with xn towards improving this in their situation. You know, if they can make a difference in any man's life or talk to their local masjid or think or consult or, you know, even those that have specializations and things like health insurance, right, there are a lot of ways to move this one step closer to something sustainable, where the best and brightest can keep serving our community for a long time to come.
Well said And subhanAllah we're overtime to the segment but honestly, it's very, very crucial that without
We talk about and truly, I think an existential threat. I think honestly, if you look long term, you know, 1020 30 years and all of the issues that we face, I think that truly is something that if we do not fix this in an organized and systemic and structural way, and fixed soon that the viability, the viability of the Muslim community in North America is under threat. So I hope that everybody, I hope that Allah makes your the study that you all did. A means, first of all, for your salvation in the afterlife and weigh in your good deeds, but also a rectification for us in this life and a wake up call a wake up call for people to take this seriously.
I would like to get to just a few questions. I know we're already over time. Angel asks what attributes make a good leader in the Muslim community?
I will just I guess, go back and forth. So let's say Dr. Smith.
Okay, so from the study, there's a few things we can probably pull out. So number one is somebody who recognizes that the role of an imam is going to be much broader than the role of simply being a traditional scholars and a teach traditional Islam. So when any any man who recognizes that he's a community leader, and that he has to serve in and wear multiple caps, be able to get along with the youth understand the issues of the youth, right, along with elders from different backgrounds, different ethnicities, that's all a big part of the thing. Soft Skills actually immerse quite a bit. Right. So these, you know, public speaking skills, like you know, communication skills, a lot of
Imams actually asked for, you know, in aspects of professional development, these are the things that they want to add, right, adding counseling skills, so on so forth. So, I don't know if there's an easy answer to this. But part of the dilemma of actually giving a formula is that because a job description is not uniform, it's very hard to say there's a uniform skill set to have. So in one masjid, you might need to have, you know, interfaith skills, and you know, all kinds of other technical skills. I mean, honestly, like some massage or like a, you know, Photoshop, because we need you to make flyers, right? So it's like, hey, if that's a determinant, you know, mostly moms
are gonna do well. So I think to answer that question, we do need to know Dr. Mohammed writes about this in detail is begin to define what we mean by a religious leader or by an Imam, or by Executive Director, more clarity on the job description allows us to get more clarity on the skills needed for that person to thrive. Excellent. Abdullah, Abu my fools asks, what are the pitfalls and supporting our religious leaders that Christians in the West have made that we need to avoid? Dr. Mohammed, do you have any thoughts of that?
It was, it's an intricate question. Certainly, the organization of Muslims spaces and Islamic institutions in the West is organizationally different than most Muslim majority countries, in the sense that considerations like separation of churches, church and state in America or the organization of nonprofits, is different than the space in which many Islamic institutions have thrived in or otherwise and l cough and otherwise worldwide. So we have a lot to learn from how religious groups including Christians in the West have organized their nonprofits and their religious organizations
while retaining our own values, and our own authentic Islamic understandings,
Muslim organizations tend to not be as similar to the hierarchical
Christian denominations, where in clergy are endowed with a special status, very special decision making,
you know, religious authority in that sense, however, a number of Islamic organizations have perhaps gone to an opposite of extreme extreme of somewhat corporatized in decision making and taking away a religious element of how decisions are approached. So something that can actually balance is something we can learn to avoid some of those pitfalls among other lessons is you know, coupling with what Dr. Rothman set is having a very diverse
organizational body where power is not endowed only in one locus or only in one center, but that religious leadership carries an important responsibilities and empowered to lead religiously. Some organizations among Christians and others went to one extreme or another and Muslims are mirroring this in parts of the United States in stripping and kind of more commoditizing or making kind of to corporate, our religious organizations or going to the extreme of essentially giving unchecked and unlimited power financially or otherwise, to religious leaders. Right and there's a beautiful opportunities for Muslims to learn
And to really embrace our religious values and finding that just the balance in the middle
mashallah, last question for Dr. Usman, which is from nusseibeh Qassam, she noticed that there are many emails that are migrating to the southern states. She says, anecdotally, our mercy has been without an email for almost two years. What can Northeastern communities do to keep their Imams? Is this something that you get into in the report? Any geography? Any trends?
Honestly, no, we didn't unpack the geography of it. And since you're in the northeast, maybe you can chime in as well. But what I'm going to speculate is that a lot of this because I live in California, but we have the same issues as the Northeast in some ways, which is cost of living. So if you're an email that lives in southern or Northern California, or you live in Boston, or you live in New York, and you live in some of these really expensive places,
it's the most, it's pretty much if you make it, even if you take less salary in the Midwest, or in another state, that's gonna be more desirable for your family. And so that's one of the common trends that we do see is that Imams who are in these very affluent communities tend to leave because they can't afford the cost of living. And to add to that Imams don't get a lot of raises. So even if you come in at a salary that today, I can pay the rent, you know, five years later, they're priced out essentially, right. And so we see that a lot in these, I think, the northeast and in and on the West Coast. I think another aspect of some of this is most are Imams often want to be where there
are stronger communities, sometimes in the south, sometimes they see strong communities, they want to raise their families in those communities as well. So it's kind of like this, the rich get richer effect. Right? I know, we see that phenomenon in Dallas as an example, right when people want to move to Dallas, because the Muslim community is strong there. And it gets stronger as more and more scholars move into those locales. So what are some of the reasons that I think, you know, anecdotally, but maybe you can add it within colasoft? With the Northeast? Because it's it is particularly tricky, right?
Yeah, I mean, I think that it could be also in addition, everything you said, which is very true.
Everything you said, I'll add to that opportunities for their families, I literally just the last time I was in Dallas, ran into any man from a certain northeast city, I don't want to Adam, who was there sort of incognito, and I recognize that.
And he was scoping it out for his kids, his kids are grown, they need to be put in school. He felt disrespected and poorly compensated at the institution he was at. And so he was had his eye on the exit sign, as we say, and he the he was just arranging things down in Dallas. So that's definitely a real phenomenon.
Excellent. Well, I very much appreciate
both of you for your your time and unpacking everything again, may Allah accept it from you both, and the rest of the researchers on the on the project. And we hope to see more of these reports. And we hope to also continue to tease out the consequences and implications, your reports. And we hope maybe above all, that everybody watching would share it and tell somebody else about this report and the implications of these reports so that we can step in and change things before it's too late. So thank you both again. May Allah bless you and I look forward to talking with you soon.
Look around us it was a pleasure Google bless you all.
Okay, so that was excellent. We're we've reached about an hour but we don't want to leave today without talking about our personal development segment or book of daily habits. The habits of the day and the night that the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam himself used to do and we've talked about many things. Now we've basically covered and gotten through
the night prayer, we talked about the night prayer to hedge it being waking up before Federer praying to hedges being one of the most essential habits of the prophets of Allah holiday settlement, one of the most essential habits for your success, both in this life to get baraka and to organize your your thoughts and for your connection with the hospital data and also and also in the afterlife. It is a shore shore path to Jenna inshallah. But now we've we've finished that sort of section and the next section that we come to, has to do with the machine. Now, there's a little bit of differentiation here because the
obligation or the level of commitment that is expected when it comes to the machine is different between men and women. Our city does recognize differentiation. It is a gendered, right in the sense that there are different expectations for men and women. And so the strict expectations about going to the masjid for prayer have more to do with men than they do with women. There's a heightened emphasis on attendance of the masjid for men, but obviously women could benefit from this as well. And in particular, the things that are mentioned in the book and that the Prophet Muhammad SAW some sort of indicated with his prayers and his vicar are things that you can
To apply anywhere. So when it comes to the first thing that we'll talk about when it comes to heading to the machine for fetcher, one of the first things that we realize is the benefit of hearing the other, that sometimes we take the then as almost for granted, right? We may be set it on our phones, and then the second that it rings, we, we silence it.
Right. And this is a shame or, or if we pray at home, and especially for the ladies who perhaps pray more at home than they do in the masjid, the prayer time comes in. But there is no event, either there's no event on your phone, or there's no other than in the house, or nobody makes it it is actually a recommended Act, to make the other than anywhere you are when the prayer time comes in. So even if you're at home, making the event to announce that the prayer time has come in, and this comes back to mindfulness, a certain type of Islamic mindfulness where we are raising our level of consciousness and awareness of the Islamic days, the Islamic calendar, the Islamic hours, right, the
way that we structure our time really affects the way that we live. And so if the horror happens to come in at 1203,
and you know, you kind of or you're doing lunch or whatever, and then you look at your clock, and then it's like, Oh, it's 130, I guess I should pray, that's a lot different experience, then it's a very different experience than when you know that the horror begins at a certain time 1203 or whatever, and then you have an alarm, you stop what you're doing, you make the other end, or you have your son make the other end or you have somebody in your family make the other 10. And then you benefit from all of the religious acts that are tied to the event. Okay, those are two completely different realities. So we've given homework before and I think the homework and the challenge for
this week is going to be to focus on the event and a very, very serious way. If you are entering into prayer times, and the event is not being heard by you then find a way to hear the other then more and more and more.
We have a question for you from Africa. I'm confused. If winter is the last prayer of the night, and we want to pray to hedge it. Is it necessary to leave? What's her earlier part of the night? Normally, I believe, what's her? I've been doing this for four years? From what I understand from your question, I'm not sure I understand it. 100%. Right, is can you pray with her in the earlier part of the night? And then if you wake up for the hedge, you'd also prayed to hedge it? The answer is yes, you can do that. If you're concerned that you are going to miss the hedges. If you want to pray the winter, after a shot, you're going to make some rough 246, whatever, and then pray with her
just to be safe, you don't want to miss it. And then you wake up Hamdulillah you happen to wake up for 200 in the last or the night. Yes, you can pray to hedge it. But you should not pray a second winter. Okay.
I'll leave it at that. The fifth discussion gets a little bit more into it. But I'll leave it with that. And that's very, very,
that's a very, very concrete thing about from so hearing the event, okay, I want everybody in the next week that's coming up to try to
develop a mechanism make a plan that you're going to hear the event more than you have in the previous weeks, and that you're going to focus on the actual event and what it means and how we're supposed to respond to the event. So there we go. The event is not just something that somebody made up after the prophesy Sutton passed away. It was something that was given to one of the companions in a dream. And the prophecy is Saddam affirmed it. So this is part of Revelation. So that means that the words of the event, the order, the sequence of the event is all part of Revelation. And that means that there are secrets that there are actual tangible things that you are supposed to be
thinking about focusing on meditating upon, right? And so when ALLAH SubhanA data revealed this thing, he also said that there is a way to respond to it, okay, and the prophesy Saddam gave us exactly what to do. He said, that when you hear the air, then you should respond in kind. That means that everything that you hear on the air, then you should repeat back. Allahu Akbar, you say Allahu Akbar, Allahu Akbar, Allahu Akbar eyeshadow Hola, hola, Chateau de la and so on and so forth. with the only exception being when the person who says the other end either on your phone or in the masjid or a family member says hey, Jana salah the prophesy centum said for us to say hola hola.
What are Quwata illa biLlah Hey other surah the hola will ACOTA illa biLlah Hey Alan fella. The however a quarter Ilhabela Hey Alan fella Villa La hawla wala Quwata illa biLlah. If you do this, I promise you you're going to become attached to the event in a way you've never been attached before. And sometimes you will
Find people. And I know people who actually will get choked up and shed tears and cry just from hearing the other.
Because they're paying attention to what it means they're responding. And that response is preparing them to connect to their Lord, to connect to Allah subhanaw data in the actual prayer. So going and making sure that you benefit from this event, and responding to it. There is a statement from the companions that said that we used to listen to the event, as if we used to listen to the recitation of the Quran. We everybody asks all the time, how do I become more focused in prayer? And we've talked when it came to night prayers about part of the answer is in your will do well, now we've gotten another answer. Part of the answer is in the event as well, that you should be paying
attention very, very carefully to the other.
Now, after the event is completed, there are a couple of Sunon there are a couple of things the prophesy Saddam did, and encouraged to do that will also help you prepare for the prayer. Lock yourself in get focused and soften your heart for having the best prayer possible. And one of them is the vicar a certain remembrance that the prophesy Saddam used to say after after the event was finished, okay, so he used to say something, that's the vicar and then there's a DUA to make. And so we'll go over both of those and have a couple of reflections off. Okay, one of the things is to Yes, here we go. We've got the studio got it up on the screen
to make the shahada a shadow. Hola. Hola. Hello, actor hula Cherie killer. No more handmade, and I'm the Hora Su. Okay, that's something that we all know the shahada will lead to be law here, Robin Wahby, Mohamed and Rasulullah were Bill Islami Dean and this is something that if you know the vicar of the morning and the evening this is part of the the core of the morning of the evening. It's also something that is recommended to say after you hear every call to prayer, okay, and that means that we are pleased with Allah subhanaw taala as our Lord and Cherisher and Sustainer. And we are pleased with Muhammad sallallahu alayhi salam as our messenger and we are pleased with Islam as our path and
as our way
now after this, okay, one of the other sunnah, and one of the things we'll leave off with, we get up from guys in the studio is the Duat the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam would make and encouraged us to make after
after hearing the data, this one is very, very famous and you probably see that on your apps for the prayer times. Allah humara bahagi had doubted term was sought out to the EMA team are hammered and we'll see that I will fill the ILA while the atheroma calm and machmood and Allah the what?
Okay, in the color totally for me out according to some narrations. What does that mean? And obviously, if you don't know the Arabic You can't say or speak Arabic or read Arabic. The most important thing is the meetings that you can have a book you can get a book, you can take a screenshot of what we have here, go back to the video once we publish it, take a screenshot, look at it on your phone, read the English and ponder the meanings. Focus on the meanings because this is actually supposed to loosen your heart from the chains of hardness and sort of rust that have built upon it. And it's something that is supposed to be the runway, the long runway just like you a plane
needs a runway to take off and he's a runway to land. If you want to have a good Salah if you have one to have a good prayer you need a runway up to the prayer and you need a runway coming down from the prayer. This will be a then the DUA the vicar is all part of your runway. So we ask Allah subhana wa Tada and we address him as the Lord have this particular complete call or invitation which is the event and the and the prayer the established prayer. We ask Allah subhanaw taala to give the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam the will sila will familiar with the specific honor and means that Allah has given him which refers to the Shiva has intercession for us on the Day of
Judgment, which means that the Prophet Muhammad SAW some will intercede with Allah subhanaw taala on our behalf to ask Allah to forgive us our sins, even the major sins, in a hadith of the Prophet alayhi salam said, initial fatsia Attica mean Almighty that my intercession is for even the major centers or the major centers of my home. We ask Allah Subhana Allah to grant us that Shiva and that intercession from him and to give him the station that is praised that you promised him. So that is the dua so we've got a lot of things to work on. We've got listening to the event. We've got repeating the words after the event. We've got the vicar after the event, and we've got the do
After the event, so this week until next week, we're going to focus on the other, you and me, we're going to try to benefit more from the event and use it to ramp up our focus and our benefit from prayer next week, so this week in order to accommodate the review of the study, we cut out a session, a section sorry, are a segment of our normal program, which is going over a book and that's because we're in between books right now. I'm going to tell you the book that we're going to start going over next week in sha Allah Tada. That will take us up to Ramadan. And that is a book that I was recommended to read. When I came back from Medina from a very famous Sheikh and Imam in the US
is a book by John C. Maxwell called the 21
Irrefutable Laws of Leadership. Now, I'll confess we're talking about the man report, and we're talking about
we're talking about the soft skills that Imams must develop. Well, when you study in Medina, you study in Egypt, you study in Mauritania, or in Morocco and Turkey. You don't learn how to lead. You don't learn how to lead people you learn, you know, Quran, you learn, suddenly you learn, * you learn Hadith, you learn all of these things, but you don't actually learn how to lead people. And so leadership was something that I didn't really have on my radar as something that should be studied and understood. And I don't necessarily even consider myself a very good leader to be frank, but I'm willing to learn and if I can do it, then you can do it too. So we will together and show I'll be
going through this book starting next week. And we asked a lot, Spencer, to forgive us for our shortcomings and to reunite us in this life and if not, then in the next. Thank you everybody for your time and attention and wonderful participation. Until next time, I'll sit on water