Can You Explain The Trinity
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Salam aleikum. wa rahmatullah. It's good to see you again. Always just looking at this flyer about the deen show. Well, that's why we're here woke up. I got some more good news for you tell me, we got another good topic, and we'd like to bring you back on to cover it. Alright, it sounds great. Wait a minute. What's the topic this time? The Trinity, the Trinity. Okay, let's go.
That's a good idea.
Welcome back to the teacher. I'm your host, Edie. Now you coming from a Christian background. You your father who knew the Bible very well, he was also a minister, I'm sure you can really help give some insight to this topic, the Trinity. When we talk about the Trinity, this is not really three gods. This is one of the things that the folks who criticize the Catholic Church, they're the ones who really came up with this idea to start with. And then subsequently, any churches that broke off from the Catholic Church, those who protested, or Protestants, they carried that forward as well. But there are there are those who criticize the Trinity, not realizing how this all came about. It's
And then there are those who claim to be Unitarians, because they say we believe in the unity of God as one. And then the Trinitarian two Coursers saying that God is one but it right away real fast, but there are three natures to God or there are three parts within one or the demonstration that gave about the finger when you can move it.
how did one become three? Let's Let's ask it like that. Because in fact, the Old Testament the Bible, the Jewish belief, and so on, even till today is God is one. And it's there's no
consideration for anything else. And there's not two, not three, not four, it's one. So Abraham did Abraham ever out of this word Trinity or Moses or Noah.
As far as uttering a word, Trinity, the word is Latin, none of them spoke the Latin language it wouldn't have used in any way.
And as far as that goes, the word Trinity itself is not found in any of the Scriptures. Not even in the Apocrypha, you don't find this word. How about for one one says for there are three that their work record in heaven, the Father, the Son, but we said the word Trinity is not that, okay, the word Trinity is not in the Bible. Not in any scripture, that word is not there. It's not until you get to the Koran that you find this word. So what is this verse that I just quoted you that people use to support the Trinity, the verse that you're talking about, now, this is in john, but it's not john gospel. This is the john one, or the first epistle of john. And it's not necessarily even the same,
It's in chapter five, verse seven. And it says, there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. And these three are one.
This verse is a matter of fact, as a matter of fact, is an addition. And all of the scholars of the Bible agree that this was added many, many, many centuries later, by someone who wanted to resolve this issue, once and for all and prove that somehow there could be three, let me get this straight. So this is not in the original manuscript. Well, nobody can say it's not because they don't have the original. It's not in the copy of the cut. It's not in anything. No, it's not in anything within I think the first a,
the first 1000 years. Okay, anything in the first 1000 years wouldn't have had that. That was added much later in the cone, a Greek. Gotcha. Okay. Now, there were things that were in Trinity mentioned Trinity, that were injected in some of these Latin copies and so on, but those were rejected anyway. But in the cone, a Greek, there was never anything in any of the early manuscripts or anything came after that. That was, you know, that anything serious that use this word, Trinity,
and nor was there anything with this verse in it. Okay, what it is, it's a take off of the verse before it, and a rewording of that verse to try to add what they want to. It says in the verse before that, there are
three that bear witness, the Father, the blood, and the Spirit. And these three agree.
The father, the blood and the Spirit. And these three agree, and it doesn't say they're all in heaven. And it doesn't say that they are one. This is they agree, but it was a chance for somebody to say, Oh, wait, look, here's three things. Now we'll try to wrap it up and turn it into something.
There were some very serious fights. And we're not talking about just fights with words, we're talking about the kind of fights where people were being poisoned people being killed over this subject. That's how really horrible it got by the third century.
There was something called arianism versus the Council of Nicea, this is referring to something I have on a website about this. And areas is the one who was insisting that the nature of Jesus was such that he's not divine. And he's not a part of God. But they were always arguing over how you explain the nature of Jesus, is he created? Or is he born? Is he begotten? Or is he not forgotten? And the wording on how you would say that would determine whether or not you were considered to be a Kaffir disbeliever.
And so that's how this kicks off. And then the Nicene council offers a resolution on that basically, if you don't agree with this will kill you. It was almost that bad was this over the rule of Constantine. Constantine was the one basically who was presiding over the council himself. And yet he was a pagan Son, God worshiper, he was in the cult called Sol Invictus. Sol is sun in Latin, Invictus means invincible. They believe that the sun was invincible, and they believe that the sun had the sun on Earth, which was basically the representative of, of the Sun power, etc. And he considered himself to be that one. And he, only five years before this council, he had actually
engaged in a war against some of the people who believed in Jupiter as being the god you know, the planet. And the guy who was the son of Jupiter was killed by him in that war, so he considered himself the really the big warrior. But to come back to this Trinity business, and when Constantine convened this council, or he was looking for his absolution, he wanted to be rid of his guilt and sin for having drowned his or actually boiled, boiling his wife and boiled his son, because of fear that they would try to compete with him for his, for his position, security. And well, in any case, he found a way to get it done. It was through this, one sect of Christianity said that if he would
say that Jesus was the Son of God, and died for sins, then they would
forgive him ever since. And then the trade off was then that the Roman government would now be forced to accept this particular sect of Christianity as the Royal or the official Church of the realm. And with that, this gave these bishops, you know, good position, because prior to that time, you know, the Roman government was killing people who were Christians, and using them for entertainment, take them out, throw them into the to the gladiators, throw them out to the lions and bears things like that, too. It was horrible. It was disgraceful. And it was, of course,
you know, killing people.
Check this out.
And welcome to the mailbag on The Daily Show, where we answer the questions of our viewers and our listeners about Islam, and hopefully clear up some of the misconceptions that many of us may have about the reality of Islam. Let's look and see what we have today.
Okay, this writer asked, Why don't you Muslims accept that God can be a trinity? Well, thank you for the very good question. We can't possibly accept that God could be a trinity because it's not necessary, because in order for God to be a trinity, that means that he would have to require
Help, in order for him to require help, that means he will be dependent upon another god, which obviously doesn't exist, or he will be dependent upon something that he himself had created. And so it's an obvious contradiction there listener that is to even expect or think or even hope that God would have to be a trinity is a contradiction to the to the actual existence of Almighty God, because in order for there to be a trinity, then that he would have to require the assistance, as we said, of something else that he would pick up that he has created. That means that he, in order for there to be a trinity, he would have to create another son that he would need assistance from, he
would have to create a ghost that he would need assistance from. So there can't be a trinity. There's not three gods, that means that one of the gods had to come first, if there was three gods, and God Himself is only one, and he doesn't require any help from anyone that would take away and it's an insult and contradictory to the existence and the fact that God is one and God is the Almighty, how can we dare say, the God is almighty and we call him Almighty God, and Vince still out of the other? On the other hand, on the other side of the coin, say again, that God is a trinity, that he that he has to be three in one, why would he have to be three in one? Why would God who is
who is not created, who is the beginning, who is the end, who is the Alpha and Omega, this one Supreme God, who brought about the entire creation. In Christianity, we were taught that in the beginning was the Word and the Word was God, and the Word became flesh in the flesh, what among us, that we weren't taught what that word was. In Islam, we're taught what the word was the word that was the beginning, the word that brought about the beginning of creation with comb, which means B, and the Quran says coldfire, comb, B, and it is. So this is how God brought about creation. But it's not how God brought about themselves, but God did not have to bring about himself. God was not
created, nor was it even self created. God Himself is the beginning. And you can't think past God. So in order to think that God needs to other beings, to help him to rule the universe, then that means that they would have to be something that came before God, or came along with God, or the God himself that created but God Himself is no is no need for Trinity. And God does not do unnecessary things. The Creator of the heavens and the earth is complete, without form without description, and he has no limitations. He has no height, no weight, no depth, no width, he has nothing that can be described by human beings. And therefore there's no need for Almighty God to be a trinity. And it's
impossible to expect that God would even have to be a trinity, because in order for him to be a trinity, that he will have to be relying upon something that he has created, because no one else has the ability to create anything, if things can only be done by the help, and the will and the plan of Almighty God. That's why we cannot believe nor can we possibly expect, even with our wildest imagination, that God could be a trinity, because it's contradictory to the very existence of Almighty God, we hope we answered your question. That's it for this session of the mailbag of the deen show. Tune in next time, thank
you, people. So up until then, if I get this straight, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't want to put words in your mouth, that we had a stream of true monotheism coming from one direction, then you had another stream coming from another direction. And it seems that this direction of the Trinity came over and Roman eyes, Christianity with all their traditions that were going on? No, I don't think so. I don't think that's what we're saying here is that the more you study this, I don't think you'll see that that that Christianity became
influenced by that I think this was just Rome, Rome's church, adapting a few things from them. That's all because it the council, here's the things that they did. I'm looking at their website right now on our website. Have a copy of it. Yeah. Where did someone find this? You can go to our our main website for this is 911 Bible 911. Bible. Yeah, you can find a lot of information over there. Another one we have is called the Islam code is lamc od e.com. And we talked about the Trinity there as well. But any case, even on their own website, they explain that what happened
And when when the Council of Nicea took place, the Roman government itself is now accepting Christianity as the official religion,
their particular sect.
So this is good news for the Christians in a way. But now there was compromises. One of the compromises was they had to change the date of the birthday of Jesus to become the 25th of December, which coincided with the birth of a God called mithras. Interesting. Another thing they had to do is to implement another feast or festival, called the feast of Ishtar. And this is the goddess of fertility. This is why they have the reference here now to the eggs.
And to the rabbits because they multiply quickly. So it was a fertility festival from the goddess Ishtar, which we today call Easter. There's where your Easter eggs, your bunnies and all the rest of it account for this has nothing to do whatsoever with Christianity. Now, most of the Christians know this, most of the knowledgeable Christians they know this, and certainly the scholars in Christianity will acknowledge that immediately. This is something that is no part of Christianity.
Now, another thing that took place was to decide which books of the Bible would be now canonized. And that's where this expression comes from. At that time, that's when the Catholic Church said, This is what the Bible will be. And that's it finish. Don't argue about it anymore. Because he used to argue about which books, put some in, take some out. But even the Catholic Church over a period of time, took out the book of revelations, and then put it back in and then took it out and put it back in.
This is not our subject today. But I'm just letting you know, many things took place at that Council. Yes. It wasn't just that they said this in this reference to the Trinity. Because when they accepted it, of course, it's going to make a problem because how will you resolve this? When it's clear through the Bible that God is one, how you resolve it?
Well, the influence here is coming from the government, not from the scholars so much, but the ones who were in the leadership position at the church wanted to do their best to twist things, bend things compromise, so they can get this position. Let's don't go back to being thrown out into the lions. You know, guys, let's work these people. And we become number one, you know, either you're number one in the best condition is church, you know, and kids better thing to the world. But get a compromise. Otherwise, we're back out here being eaten by lions. And what's the benefit of that? So I think that was the mindset, I'm trying to give you an idea based on what information we have
available today. But I think that seems logical.
Another point is that the word Catholic
There was always the Universal Church of Rome, it never was a Christian church. And it was in business long, long, long before they were affiliated with Christians. Because Roman had a church, and when citizens were wanting to join, or if they took over a country, and you would like to be a full citizen, you had to join this church. Now you can keep your old gods no problem. But you definitely needed to be a part of this. So that is still the name of it today, Roman Catholic, church, Universal Church of Rome. Now if I'm reading what was available to me at that time, and I'm finding I'm sincere, and I want to pray to God alone, how did I fit in this equation when
everybody's trying to support this other belief, this other theology?
Eddie, you can't say it that way. Because people didn't have Bibles. It wasn't until the time of Gutenberg when he produced that press and started running Bibles off that a common person could even have access.
And also it was illegal. Even up until 1511. It was forbidden
for anyone to translate the Bible, to the English language, even up to the time of 1511 when William Tyndale
produced his whole entire Bible in English,
and what they did, they executed him. They burned him, the church burned him at the stake with his Bible. tactus. Just Why? Because it's illegal. It's blasphemy. To translate the Bible. Nobody was to have it, the priest only and in the Latin line.
That's how the law was. And it was 100 years after that, even after William Coverdale, a student of Tyndale came with another one. It will. And
in 1611, there was a group who actually translated the Bible to English again, that's what we call King James Version. But in fact, King James didn't even know they did it till after the fact.
They wrote a soliloquy in the beginning of it, praising him, worshiping Him, calling him Lord, even hoping that he would accept and not kill them.
He never authorized it, although he'd never killed them either. But he never officially authorized it. So they nicknamed it the Authorized Version. When it came to our country, it was called the King James Version. Get it? That's how that works. So to come back to the Trinity, though, nobody at the time
of the Catholic Church taking over 325, nobody could have sat around and read the Bible anyway, how you going to read something that doesn't exist? What they had was some priests, who had some manuscripts or pieces of manuscripts, copies of things that were even in the q&a, Greek and so on. But they did not have any full complete Bible that did not exist at that time.
So tell us how at the end, did this word come about?
you know, when I say by the way that they didn't have a Bible, what I'm talking about is that the average person didn't, because they did have the Roman vulgate. That was done by Jerome, in it has tremendous amount of mistakes in it, and so on. But that's sad point. This word Trinity comes about as a result of the influence of the Roman government itself. The Roman government was considered a tri Union Government, because it had three bodies, just like the United States has three bodies, that you have your President, you have the senate of Congress there, you know, and this all together is equaling three, this is taken right from the Roman government. The Roman government also had
three and three to make up their one body, and they were all in unison on their decisions, you follow. So when the Roman government takes over, they want to have this to remain in the church, which they had had before. So this was why there was an emphasis and a real push to make sure it stayed. But the real problem in the early days wasn't over so much is whether God was one, two or three, the real problem was over the issue of what was the nature of Jesus? Was he God? Was he man, was he man, God, or God, man? Was he born was he created was he always. And they would get into that, because if you didn't, if you didn't say he was always you will blast FEMA.
According to some, of course, and then another thing comes up a passage in the Bible talking about the spirit, that the blasphemy is that you say anything against the spirit, that spirit is essentially a part of the deity or something at that stage. So this becomes an issue that gets so big and so distorted. And over the years, people just say, Look, just believe it, just have faith, let it go, God is one. But you know, he has these three parts, or he's like three things at one time. And you know, like, for instance, I can be a father, and I can be a brother, I can be a son, all at the same time. True. Of course, I could also be, I could be father, brother, son,
grandfather, Uncle cousin, so wouldn't be limited. And I really think that when people start using these kinds of examples, and especially trying to compare God to a human, or anything else that he created, I think they're way off track. The best thing is to consider what the last told us in the Quran. A lot told us the end he told us about Trinity in the Quran. That's why I said it's not in the Bible, but it's in the Quran.
Clearly, Christians, not to say three
was clearly what Allah says to us, because God is one. There's only one God, and he doesn't have any partners. Finish that ilaha illa Allah luxury cola.
That's very simply put, so we know that this wasn't a teaching of Jesus. It wasn't teaching of Abraham. Now it wasn't a teaching of any of the prophets, and not even the teaching of the last and final message to mankind, the Prophet Muhammad
from the from the scripture that we do have, we don't find any of it in there.
Have a lot of criticism of Paul, a lot of people criticize Paul. And when you go to seminary school, you find that there is there are three synoptic gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, then you have the johanne. gospel, then you have a teaching and dogma that coming in, you don't have it all. It's not the same. It's not the same message. It's not the same teaching.
And one of the key things they talk about is Pauline doctrine. Because Pauline doctrine isn't the same, it doesn't follow the same way at all. And it has a different message even even to the extent of breaking all the commandments and just, you know, being dead to the law. And if another statement, if the false exact tale, bring the people closer to God, then why are they persecuting me? This is coming from Paul, and his ideas of, and they were strange ideas, they some claim that these ideas were based on the mystical religion
of Tarsus where he was raised up. But regardless of that, and no matter how far you stretch it out, you cannot find ball using this word Trinity. He didn't even he didn't come up with this idea. He didn't come up with that kind of a nature of God, Jesus. What's the alternative now for the people who agree with you? And they've done a little research or you know what, to them? It also doesn't make sense, what's the alternative that they don't lose faith, which is another alternative way for them to go, I don't want anybody to lose their faith. I know. There are trinitarians in Unitarians, Christians, Jews, Muslims out there, talking about this subject, I don't want anybody to give up.
Don't give up. This is my advice to myself as well, when I'm confused about anything. If I get upset about anything, then I need to go back to the Lord above, and open up my own communication with him, and pray to Him and ask Him to guide me to the answer. Because quite frankly, human beings are to each other, just other human beings, we can't be gods to each other. We would like to help each other out and help to gain a better knowledge, better understanding. But for sure, it's only the Lord above who's going to grant this real wisdom, this real insight and understanding, and you have to be patient. And you have to take your time. And then when you get an idea, and the Lord puts
something in your mind speaks to your heart, then you need to go and read what it is He wants you to read or think about or go sit with the people that he's guiding you to, you might be surprised. You might find yourself sitting with Muslims talking to them about it. Or you might find yourself talking to Jewish talking about the subject or Hindu. I'm not telling you not to do something, I'm telling you just to think about what you're doing. This is what I'm saying. And pray to your Lord and really ask him to come into your life in a way that he can guide you. Because most of us were fighting guidance all the time.
Thank you again for being with us.
Shay, it's great to be with you. We're gonna have to have you back on again. Oh, we'll see. God willing. Well, there you have it from from our guests, former Christian preacher, Minister chef use of estus. I'd like to thank everybody who's been tuning in, from day one to the deen show you don't catch us live. Don't worry. All the shows that we've taped, you can catch it on the dean show comm website. And if you get stuck anywhere over here on any of these topics, 911 Bible,
we have a lot of information there also. And just to recap, God is one, just like if you take your family of three to an airport, with one ticket,
it's only going to be for one person, you can split it up into three cars, not like a pie that you split them up. He's one, absolutely one and one alone. There's the same message of Jesus, Abraham, Moses, knowing all the prophets of Almighty God. So we ask you again, to worship god alone and not to associate any partners with him. And this is the main message of Islam. So we look forward to seeing you again here on the deen show. If you have any comments or suggestions, please email me. And this is your host Eddie signing off. Salaam Alaikum. Peace be unto you