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Exploitation in the Muslim Community – How Fringe Religious Groups Form

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Mohammed Hijab

Channel: Mohammed Hijab

Episode Notes

Episode Transcript

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Salam aleikum wa rahmatullah wa barakato.

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Group group ism and sectarianism is one of the main challenges within the Muslim community.

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The Quran says wakasa will be habit in Lehi, Jamia and Wallah tarraco Hold tight to the rope of Allah and do not become disunited.

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One of the main groups that facilitates

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a disunity is the Salafi publications. This is at least the allegation. We'll be talking about this and more things which are quite severe today with Dr. Huck Baker, Abdulhak Baker, Dr. Abdul haq Baker is a professor in political sciences, who has published a book on extremism and is notable in the community.

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He will be shedding light on his interactions with this group, the subgroup that claimed to be selfie, and as a result of that claim,

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consider other people, other Muslims to be innovators, and treat them with a high level of disrespect. What will be unraveled in this discussion is some

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frankly, quite

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hard claims that are made against this group regarding how they interact with not only Muslim people generally, but that how they may be exploiting certain vulnerable Muslims in the community, including women.

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It's important that Muslims and non Muslims alike are aware of this, not only because it shows that we're being self reflective in a greater Muslim community sense, but because people do need to be warned against the excesses and the

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the exploitative practices of such group members.

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For this reason, this interview with block Baker, where he attempts to actually provide evidences which will be provided in the description box is an important one for UK, Muslims and selfies in particular, who interact with other selfies and might be at risk of potential harm from both an ideological perspective and from on a pragmatic level,

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solid data.

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So we're gonna go straight into the interview and I want you to your own words, describe what Salafism or selfie data or what does it mean to you? Salafi Tao means referring to the illustrious times of the Sahaba, the Sahaba, the companions of the Prophet on the lost limb, and the succeeding two generations, because these were the errors that were attested to by the prophets. I saw them as being the best. So Sofia, Salafism references that and authenticity that emanates from that particular period, as well as the methodology in disseminating understanding and contextualizing the practice of Islam. Right. So, now, what people find is that a lot of people call themselves lfu. And

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they ascribe to particular groups and sects. In your understanding, is this what you make of Salafism or self? Doubt? No, because Salafi Tao Salafism is not a set or a group, contrary to common academic perspectives are being put out conservatively. There is no group in the sense that you have to belong and have membership to an organization that ascription to the self. And not only dismiss scripture, just lip service, but in your character, in your application, in your approach, in your interaction, in Deen and dunya. These are the elements that showed that that ascription is actually being embodied by that particular individual. Right so now coming more into like the UK context and

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the Dow that has been done in the UK in the propagation of Islam through a selfie lens, if you like. My question now is with your interaction with different selfie groups, what have you found generally to be the case in terms of group ism and sectarianism up until a particular point in the early 90s, when I became assimilating it up to the mid 90s there was uniformity. And there was one main organization gms Jamia mujer Minh Hatcher Suna, which was consolidating the body of Muslims in a sense, in its in its own way, it was a history and we gradually moved away from that. But there was unity on the on the whole with the Muslims. And the Dow was being spread, engaging across

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universities with the wider Muslim populace, and people genuinely liked

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The message of Sophia and the behavior of the selfies at that time there was that excessiveness to an extent, but we were outward looking and embracing. That changed. When we saw, I would say in the west for the first time, the emergence of a cult. So what is this cult? Would you link it directly with the silica publications? And when would you say this actually this division took place? This division is very good and poignant question. It refers to sell a few publications, who emerged on the end at the end of the fracturing of gymnasts and the members of gymnastics. And I would say, personally, a key proponent and a key,

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I would say, aspects of that emergence was to do with an individual who then joined the ranks of the selfies and the wide amount of or khadeeja. And towards the end of 95, especially in 1996, we saw movements and reconsolidation of some of the former members of gymnasts around them behind Apple, Khadija, and this was something surprising, because I didn't know where he came from. Many of us didn't know where he emanated from wasn't unselfie or even existing as a selfie in the early part of the 90s. As we were rising, and the first one selfie publications in the initial stage, they call themselves oasis. Well, that's contrary to what he says in one voice now that we've picked up from

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him online, where he says that he was maybe upon Santa Fe and his own words from the earth from the late 80s, early 90s. Yes, I saw that footage that you you picked up. He claimed that he was selfie from 1988. And that he was learning from students of knowledge, who were going to the scholars, I will say categorically, that's a lie. In 1992 1993, his brother approached a woman to sit at the head of gymnasts, asking if some brothers could give Dawa to his brother, Abu Khadija of the white, because he was on the quote to Jihad invite, following what was taking place in Bosnia? What does that mean exactly? What did you did you see any kind of extremism in him or? Well, for the

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understanding of the jihadi vibe was one of attack theory Harada kargi, right. And it was his brother who brought that to the individuals. And I know individuals who went and gave him down, they've communicated with me directly. We were amongst that group, who communicated with him, gave him down. And he started coming to the Salafi way. Right. And so his breaking away from the main body of Serbia, as it were, and making his own group up and actually sign up as a company changing into a charity getting funds from government getting funds from the general public. You're saying that was a pivotal turning point in 1996 was a year you can report with the Oasis conference in what

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they did is most of the known speakers from the selfie groups. Selfie group gymnasts, including shakes with hate,

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they predator. So hypothermia, they put all our names on a poster, saying there was going to be a conference, we'll put this poster on. Have you got the poster still? Yes. So we'll put the poster in the description box and or you'll be seeing here. And what's interesting about that poster, when you look at the lineup, there are two columns, and you'll see the line of sight and shakes and also my shake was

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going down up there in green individuals like this Simon Hassan from Queens now we'll call him the next column started with my name at the top. But and you'll see that Apple Khadija and Amgen Rafiq, we're further down on the second column, indicative of the significance, I don't know if this was in feigning piety to try and show we put, we can't put our names at the top because we're not so renowned or known as duart at that particular time, but your name was on this, as well as my name was on the beginning of the second column, right? So they didn't tell me about this. They didn't notify a number of so your name was on it. And you didn't know I didn't know about it. And when I

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saw this, I considered it as many of my colleagues in Brixton, this was a power move that they will make it to claim ascendancy. And I said, I will not even attend the conference. So all you're effectively saying is that they tried to grab market share from the seller community, yes, to get everyone from all these other

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followers, right, to come to their group and so that they can kind of break away with them. Yes. And this is the thing is interesting, you use the term breakaway, because they have since that time, until now, like to the scholars, saying that individuals are attacking the salaries then and a breaking away and splitting from them. When the actuality as you proceed down the years, and the evidence has been produced by myself in some of my podcasts and such like, you'll see that

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well, the name of the podcast chronicles of UK Salafism, right and then the more specific documented things that I've been doing for about

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Yes Now cultures tendencies. So that will be in the description box for those who want to watch. And in those you'll see the breaking of agreements, which they accused others of, but it was them who continually did not and consistently did not adhere to agreement. I wonder, is there any evidence of that? Yes. So for example, one of the one of the agreements that was quite public was the one in 1999. Yes, between the seller, the seller fees in Brixton and losing on the one hand, and then you had those in Birmingham. And that'll be the matter was, was there as one of the arbitrators you could tell the judges? Can you tell us a little bit more about that agreement? What happened that

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held? How was that kind of reformulated after? Right? So in the very good question, in 1999, Abolhassan Matt Ruby, as soon as a man he was called and then changed Matt Ruby, because he was moved to Yemen. He became very well known due to a sitting that he had with check out the band among other bands at the time. Now there was excitement about the level of knowledge that they were hearing in the in this these cassettes, and it's been translated to us so he was invited to the UK, we invited into a return to in conference in Brixton, and he accepted that invitation. When he came to the masjid and we were ready to explain the program. We received a phone call from another ship,

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who was Medina students, and for from since passed away, right a lot from East London. They insisted on coming to see in the ship. They came in to visit the ship and we were like the gatecrashing for the shakes of note. I'm your guest. Let me see you I want to see. And they came with a very pompous letter. We often sell a few publications. We want to sit with you to ask if you will arbitrate, in a matter the dispute we have between Luton, they didn't mention us between Birmingham, and Luton. And they stopped the letter started words of praise from the scholar, the scholar discolored. That's why I say pompous haven't hasn't agreed and said he will sit and preside over that affair. They should

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bring that evidence in. He made time for them. He changed the whole program of the conference. And we were a bit disheartened about that. And when he listened to Luton, he said I see Britain as having similar grievances. You haven't complained, but you are closer to Luton you to a one party, Birmingham or another party, after process of arbitration getting to the point, he sat, and he gave his decisive ruling on the affair with shakerley mungkin le and Dr. Giovanni was there with him. And they were 26 I believe points. And they gave those points, but then they contacted Sheikh rabbit and said, We want you to read these points around. Rep. Matt Kelly, we want you to read these points and

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confirm whether you find them acceptable and you agree with them. Generally evidence for this. I have the original agreement Arabic, I have the translation from Dr. g. Bailey. And I have the audio when she when when Abu Hassan sat and read out the points with both parties gathered at that time. The description was Arabic and English. Yes. And if you want the audio, it's quite grainy, but you can still hear Abu Hassan speaking

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at that time is coincidental, because on that day, and I will say this, such as the cowardice of these individuals. Our Khadija had excused himself and I believe he generally genuinely was traveling to Kuwait to see us. But he'd written to or given a message to Abu Hassan to say that he does he will not be there but he will abide by whatever agreement was there and then stated that Hakeem was there rather than a Bashir, so what happened now? When they wrote the agreement,

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they faxed it to shake Robbie. He was on the phone.

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I left the Brixton office because we couldn't receive faxes, we could send faxes, and I went to the highroad there was a Muslim hardware store for some kit. I called the brothers on coming we've given you a number for fat sugar and is going to be sending a fax I received a fax personally I don't speak Arabic so I can't say what was in there and everything. I walked back, handed it to

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us and checks and he was still on the phone to shake robot. Then they read it out and it was they confirmed the shape for Robbie confirmed his endorsement and acceptance of and you have yours. That's the shake Robbie's original handwritten note with the signatures as well.

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And what happened thereafter?

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Clearly there was

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upset by one site, the Federal Republic Birmingham site and after Abul Hassan Sheikh Salim asked us to come out to the conference audience and give a few words to say about a general words were given about Islam and coming together of brothers beloved Dave's I've got that cassette as well if you want me to send give you that every one spoke, but then shortly after once we heard about Mirage adapter, who's one who was one of them from Manchester

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Who they likened to the alima Dini of the UK, this is what they said about him at the time. But he was written off shortly afterwards by them as well. And he went to Saudi and he met shake Robbie. And basically, there was a process of then undoing the agreement. And to our surprise, shake Robbie, reconnect and cancel T's endorsement of the agreement. All of this. Yeah. So when we saw that we were very surprised jordanis shoe could raise the price. But because he had this was the for us. Yeah, the ability to do that. Yes. Because everyone would look to shape rugby over these fears. And the Jordanians were close to shake Robbie at the time as well. So when we saw this, we felt we

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nobody had no choice but to say we are no longer with disagreement. But until this day now, and probably after this

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recording and interview with yourself, we may have angiography Dr. m, Deborah fique, coming back with these pages of refutation of that had to be sitting at a little bit art such as this is you I think, you know, this is what we're going to talk about.

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Right now, I should have really been in just a second after you finish this point. Because we need to know more about these characters, you know, the visuals, who actually who facilitated this breakaway? And who knew in your understanding facilities of of this cult? Yes, well, at the helm was a double Khadija, Abu

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Abu Hakim Villa Davis, use of buyers and geography. These will mean protectionist and going on this list. You mentioned some of the antagonists of horribleness of the white

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belt Davis, who's Paul Davis. And

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so could you tell us what the level of training and qualification is in the Islamic sciences? very rudimentary, if that. And I'm not professing that I'm a student of knowledge. No, in another academic field. Yes. But let's start with Dylan Davis, Paul Davis at wacky black blocking, felled in Medina University on a number of occasions taught me how to reply and reply. I remember being out there on one occasion and meeting him and the brothers told me he's reapplying yet again to get back into university. And he felt so unless he's got any qualifications, after that, he's Arabic was quite good. From what I've what I understood from those who know, and heard his Arabic and listen to

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him. It's good. He's proficient in Arabic, but he didn't graduate, like a number of them. I don't actually know in your mind. Did you try and babble? Khadija, I believe has got a degree in teaching. And not much else other than that, angiography from the point of academia, and he's quite good. Scientists. Yes, he's got I believe he's got a PhD in biochemistry, and actually read a very good paper. And it's unfortunate because I read this paper when he was criticizing me for speaking from the realm of academia. But he wrote a very good paper with two non Muslim academics on pasteurized milk. So from that perspective, I said in one of my series that he should stick to his lane remain

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in his lane, about pasteurized milk. And I suppose that I would say this in respectful of disrespectful way.

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He knows about regurgitation. Okay. And if that's his lane, then I will call him according to what he specializes in it, the milk chef.

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So that's his speciality. So he's not a specialist in Islam. But we know that he's an avid keyboard, warrior, and warrior from the pages that these people are allowed to see why do they not come out to the public realm and face the public? I mean, you only hear I mean, rarely do you see videos of those individuals. You hear voice notes, you see pages that they've written and put up on their Twitter feeds or you don't actually see them coming up? What is the reason for that? I would say amongst the leadership, you will see wanton cowardice amongst the leaders. And you'll see an element of house Negro ism from those who follow avoca dangerous lackeys, which is, which is unfortunate,

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unfortunate. What I would say, though, and say to qualify, now, I'm not speaking about some of the followers of the cult, because many of them are sincere. Yes, there are. Many of them are new Muslims, my PhD talks about stages of development with regards to useful foundational stages and overzealousness. Could it be published? Yeah, it might be at least published yet. The books called extremists in them, it's confronting terrorists, down to seven books, and I can give you so and so I talk about those stages. So you can see that they're at the very beginning rudimentary stages that many of us must have gone through when we converted to Islam, or when we reverted

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As a second generation Muslim surgeon, Russian Muslim, so I don't include them when I'm talking at this level of critiquing. So when I'm speaking about the legal institution, it's unfettered.

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Abdullah della Hammami is another individual who's got his PhD. I think he studied, he did it on Tafseer of Quran in this instance. He studied and supervisors were

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specialists in erotic Yes, one of the supervisors was a specialist in neuroticism and translated a book from tattoos he was earlier this year. And so but absolutely let him this. And our research and my colleagues research. And he's written something like 50 pages about Abdullah, and in my series called silence of the Lamb. I bring this evidence. Yes. And so we say, why was he was involved in some controversy surrounding

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race knows that as well. Yes. surrounding

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a problem I was here talking about, you know, keep up the biology that yes, you're seeing that they're not actually in 1996 97. When I went on camera, and I met Abdullah there, he was working in the school, or my farm, which I subsequently worked in, got a job and worked in afterwards. I remember him studying with a student called from Sri Lanka called Yes, Sydney. And that student was teaching something that was very doubtful and worrying. But Abdullah had embraced that because he came to me and showed me an open the first page of a book from sacred thing. And he pointed to the introduction in Arabic, I didn't understand he told me, he read it in Arabic, and he said, shake

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with a me and he referred to shake it members are not selfie. They are handily.

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And I've challenged him, even at Robbie's house in 2002 when we had to meet for another Islam, and I said, I'm going to bring to shaker a bit what you said about the kebab on the market, they will not sell a fee. For the same this for for them. This is a big disgrace to say something like that. Yes. And he went paler than usual and put his head down and said I was very foolish at that time. But that doesn't suffice as a recantation. Right, and to date, and I will continue to say to the camera, you need to recap, well, we don't see much recantation from this group. Anyway, because this arrogance, yes, it's a it's a it's a premise of arrogance. They would rather disparage shoe York, as

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we've seen that they've done. And if I can say for the record, rather Mohammed, many are using the term that they've dropped many shoe York. And I think we need to redress that does shoe York realized the reality of them, and left them or advise them. And as a result of that, they saw it necessary to disparage those of you even going and lying to the shield that they go to. They are shaped shield but we don't restrict to one or two shield and then getting edicts fatawa. And evidence is evil, even if there were general to disparage those, you can say we've left them because there won't be sky, how many did they have? And how many do they have? The last count but I when I

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did in one of my series was around 26 I'm sure that they will once we've now against them or not with them. Okay. Now, I believe there's just three of them at the what we see is that, while we respect that will Amar, we saw from the cult, as I call them abaca DJs is what I call them, we saw from them, that they're raising of scholars who did not have official positions other than teachers, for example, or seniority to give fatawa from Saudi Arabia. And this was confusing, a number of selfies, who began to see the shoe as the shoe, the scholars that you have to go to. And you saw

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in direct disparagement of scholars big scholars like Shaykh Abdul Mateen Abdullah bad, we saw disrespect being meted out to shake vasila our bass would met these individuals personally in Birmingham and spoken concerning them. So actually refuted them by name he did. And then you see that Apple Khadija and others then felt that upon themselves took it upon themselves that they could speak disrespectfully against squatters in this particular manner. And you see that now from one of their longtime scholars shut down. We've been hiding

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for 20 years, yes, who some of us had disagreements with and split from because of his his

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slavery and listening to them as though they were the only selfies and clear selfies

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among the selfies in the West. And let's say probably they are so clear that they're transparent. You can see from them

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as clear as they get, so that is what we saw from them. With regards to the scholars, now they are down to not even a handful of scholars now. So they praise excessively. Yeah. And then they and then the dispraise yes successively, as we saw in the document that I've given to Molly halaby, ali Hassan, they call him alhama. And he Hassan has spoken, we wait for the latch not to correct it, some still put this document in the description. This is an email and we'll Khadija so it was challenging, challenging the legend of the Ad Council of Saudi Arabia as AC is the ultimate authority. Yes. And then they quickly display some email fifth of October 2000 from Apple Khadija in

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the groups that emailed it to and be bold words, a llama, and he has spoken. And this is a thing that they do. Learn and then he becomes the chef, tell the guests, all they do is remove them. They just become a regular job. Yeah, and this is another case with Yes. And this is something that is really strange in Islam. Yes. A shake is the chef. Yeah, he didn't lose his knowledge. Exactly. Right. So no, one one thing we want to talk about is the divisive nature of this group. You talked about one of your main concerns working with the community on a grassroots level you're very well known in South London for for doing that, is that this actually cause family strained family

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problems between even husband and wife. We've got reports that ever Khadija, for example, would be responsible for divorces. And actually,

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you could say misplaced, you could say,

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you know, meddle with family business. Yes, it's this, all these true rumors about firsthand accounts from Ex Machina by individuals who I'm in touch with now, how they split him from his wife. So what can you tell us? Is this a case study? This is a case study, but I will refer to the one that I've got documentation from right, which a student in Medina, right, started getting calls from his wife, because she was being approached from some of the cult members, sisters, and saying that your husband has taken a position but about a particular scholar. Right? I can't recall which it's got one of the big scholars and the husband, and it was a point of for not muscle

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issue. And basically, those sisters were saying that your husband is not selfie, and they were being driven by their husbands to do this. And he was writing. And the brother who was an arbitrator came to me and said, Can I share this information with you? I didn't know what I could do in that instance, but he shared and I read the information, the letters from the brother the communication, and he said I want to speak to Khadija How am I not selfie? What are these individuals doing? Then? He wrote to another brother, my family, I do not know where they are. Wow. When he went back to the UK to Birmingham, they've been moved from their home biohydrogen by the massive a lot. They've been

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relocated, yes. from that. And he said, this is what they have done. I don't know where my wife is. Wow. So this was something that was very serious. And I can provide you with the letters and everything. It was written in English by the by the brother. And as I said, I've been in communication with other individuals who have told me what happened with regards to the cult being involved in splitting their wife from from what is the incentive for this? I mean, when they do that when they split their wives, for example. Is there. Is there a marital incentive? Do you think that they try and maybe get married to this woman after they've been divorced? Or? I can't say what the

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incentive is. Yeah. But then you do see marriage afterwards to a more staunch member. So wait, so you're saying there's a trend of after separation between someone, for example that they disapprove of, that they themselves will put themselves forward for? Or someone who was approved by them for marriage? Yes. Well, that says a lot to be honest with you is what else is there in terms of incentive? What is driving these individuals to be like that so divisive and so insular, and their power and control power and control? Yes, I know students of knowledge, who have graduated from Medina, living in Saudi Arabia. And you can see that they are mouthpieces for these individuals, and

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they are almost scared to interact with other individuals who are known selfies, because of what may happen as a result. They may send out general emails of things they've translated. And I may speak to one or two of them and they blind copy me and the other individuals in case those from the markaba seen that they're including individuals who they have issues with. This is this bullying, you can only bully weak people. And the bully themselves are weak, as you know. Yes. And this is a manner that they've got when more robust individuals come in

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confront or speak, not just I'm not talking just about violence in that instance. But when they know individuals have a bit of testicular fortitude, if you like, you will see them very cautious in that particular instance. And I'll give an example I want to make sure I'm giving evidence when Sophie manhandled my colleagues in Brixton, did this booklet, to refute use of Bowers, who gave a revisionist version of self doubt which completely false. And he included Brixton, in that

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document was compiled with research, interviews, everything that could be made available. And a visit was made to him to give him a letter to verify and maybe withdraw the revisionist lies that he'd said on YouTube. Before they launched his document. When they went up to Birmingham to deliver the letter, I hasten to add no violence or anything like this. He refused to come out of his house. They asked him to meet somewhere, he said, What do you want to want to give you something and he refused to come? I said, Please deliver it to my shop, chicken shop or whatever shop that he had. Why do I bring this this is a trend of these individuals, the leaders? And I repeat, is cowardice

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plain and simple?

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Well, we you've given us a lot of information. If you basically showed us that there have been people that have been breaking their agreements, the initiators of division, division within family. And you've given a case study example, which I'm sure the evidence will be in the description box. You've got Chronicles, which people can refer to that outline all of these things in chronological format, with documentation with documentation as well. I mean, one documentation from them from that where I'm not giving things I've just told you that email from Apple Khadija noted the fifth of October 2000 documents from them. What now, as a final question, my question is, what advice would

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you give to someone who is stuck in this in this group? And the sect? What would you do? What kind of advice would you give them? Maybe they've maybe they've realized the things that you're talking about, and they've had suspicions of what is the main kind of overarching advice you'd give to them? My advice and advice would be that these are a very small,

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insignificant, but lound cult. And they only have to refer to a cult that emerged in the Saudi Arabia, with the Juju Haman. And how they started the one we tried to overtake the one who held the hair on the mat and the mock up for siege and how they emerged in the beginning. They had scholars with them right before they went to their extremes shape, color band, shape in bass shaker, shaker McBee, Abul Amina Bill, Bill Phillips, who was nowhere in the same skills of the three Firstly, that I've mentioned that as a student, because he gave a detailed account of being with them, and when they started pulling away from these individuals and left them completely. And when you look at the

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parallels that are there, you'll see that there's an extremism, behavioral extremism, lot of violent extremist type theory, you'll see there's a behavioral extremism and glue about this code in splitting, disparaging, and marginalizing anyone who does not agree with their view. And there's an element of shake worship, here.

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We are selfies were excessive, I would say in our condemnation of individuals who follow the map, when you say worshipping using animals, for example, metaphoric sense, in the sense that now, you'll see that the type of blind following they do or shake rabbit a lot is reprehensible, more reprehensible than those who are following the mother a form of aid now, and this is these individuals who want to pull away only have to look at that look at the parallel with a gentleman and what happened there. Look at the parallels with the blind following that they according to yet condemning others who are blind following

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the following life usually like he said, people they're much more worthy of being followed than Exactly. And that's not to detract. I'm not going to comment on the repute and merit of Shane Robbie, he's a big scholar. However, we know with Sophia, that we do not blindly adhere to any scholar whatsoever. Anyone can be wrong, just profits on a life slip. And we have the precedents of the Imams who have spoken. I would also say to them,

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once they're pulled away, they have nothing to fear from these individuals. You will see a regurgitated reputation condemning them from the milk chef. This is what he does best, but it has no bite to it.

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So do not be afraid of them. They are not to be feared in any shape or form. They can go to a scholar, the last three scholars they have or whoever they are, and get condemnation of you. If it's untruthful sp allamani Maliki, Why fear their words, or the lies they tell to scholars to condemn you? This this is my message and my advice. And I say that Sophia is not this Salafism is not this. We are selfies, have some blame? I think genuinely, because we have been stagnant in our engaging and embracing the wider Muslim community. Sophia, as we said from the outset, is adherence to the first three generations and the scholars who are upon that way. But it's not just lip service. There

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is there is some work and efforts that need to be put into that.

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That is what Sophia is, we need to look. And we need to refer to the Kabbalah who have the wisdom, the insight, the hikma adhere to them, and look out for those individuals. And this is a clear thing, my last thing I say, look out for individuals who do not call to themselves.

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They call to the dean, they do not call to their group to the organization. They call to the dean, and they refer you to the Kabbalah.

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You do that you will not fall this way or that way with regards to cultism or groups that browbeat you to adhere to their objectives. Exactly like Dr. Baker, where you're sure that the people can reference your book, they can go and see all the evidences has been excellent. And make use of that. I will then likewise please just laughing thank you again. Welcome. While it's in slot