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Agnost discussion with Muslim

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Mohammed Hijab

Channel: Mohammed Hijab

Episode Notes

Episode Transcript

© No part of this transcript may be copied or referenced or transmitted in any way whatsoever. Transcripts are auto-generated and thus will be be inaccurate. We are working on a system to allow volunteers to edit transcripts in a controlled system.


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He saw it.

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With Jimmy, I thought, what is going to be? I mean, if someone's got a belief system, right, would you agree with me? Like, it seems like what you're saying anyways, that person really ought to have reasons, rationale for what you're believing in what they're believing.

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Yeah, I mean, yeah, you should definitely have a reason you shouldn't just believe because, like other people around you believe like the you don't follow the herd.

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So, yeah, like I said, I think it's good that like, people challenge that. I mean, he doesn't doesn't necessarily have to change your mind. It doesn't you don't even have to have a counter argument. But if you believe for certain reason, if that's the reason not for you that I think that's fine. Can I Can I be honest with you, you know, like in the West, in the Western Hemisphere, I'm born up here, I spent the majority of my adult life from my childhood in this country,

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we found is that this is sort of like a new culture now. So you know, the 2001. UK census said that there were 74% Christians. And if you look at 2011, it went down to 54. So that's a 20%. depreciation in 10 years now, that means literally millions of people left Christianity. And I became atheists. Right. I genuinely do believe that those 54% that do claim to be atheist, Christian, might not be practicing Christian or might just put that in the census because they feel like they associate with it to some extent, but not, they're not practicing it. Yeah. So I think it's moving in the direction where the predominant

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ontology that people have is really like an atheistic

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or agnostic, right, which is where you're coming from. Yeah. So I want to ask you, so what is your rationale? Because we talked about rationale. So what is your rationale for being? What would you call an agnostic as agnostic?

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When you don't believe in a certain thing, but when you you know, you're not against anything, either. So you're open to everything right? Yeah. It's

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like, to me, it's, it's like it's, so there's no definitive proof that there is a God? Yes, we all know that. Like, you can believe in that. And you believe that there is you have reason that there is you have the books, it's all fine. However, I think atheists also have no definitive proof that there's no God. And that's why why I'm thinking while more agnostic than atheists think, because

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personally, I just like I said, I tried to like the I feel the Live and let live arguments pretty good. Just like I'm fine with whatever you believe, as long as you believe practice it, basically, as long as you can argue about it, and don't shove it down my throat essentially. So that's where I think that's why I'm reasonable. Because I don't necessarily believe that there is a God, but I don't have any proof that does not so I just tried to live my life as positively as possible. And I feel like that mostly forms, I think it's opinion that you have, I genuinely believe that this opinion that you have is probably if not today, but in the very near future will be the kind of

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majority opinion in the in the Western Hemisphere. Yeah, I think, certainly what you talked about with the Live and let live aspects of what you said, is no doubt, a big part of the Western narrative. Because it's liberalism. It's really liberalism in a nutshell. Yeah. Right. Because that is exactly the harm principle, which is espoused by john Stuart Mill, on liberty, which is a very important principle that people take. And we'll get to that in a second. But I was gonna ask you another question. Before we get to that. The question I wanted to ask you is, you touched upon a very interesting point that atheists are adamant for especially positive atheists. They're adamant

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that God doesn't exist.

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And, and I am sorry, I'm theists are people who are adamant that God does exist. Yeah. And your position is that God, as a theological construct can't be proven, right? Yeah. I'll say to the Chinese guy. First of all, if you look at I'm from an outcome I come from like Kosovan Islamic background, I'm a Muslim.

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Yeah, yeah, that's right. So that's what we do five times a day. If you look at the Quran, this is a book that we believe is the word of God, you'll find that God is described in a certain way, right?

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The biblical discourse, God is described in a certain other way, you could say there are many similarities. Yeah. But you know, there are differences as well. Yeah. In the Hindu discourse, there's a third way that God has described polytheistic Lee, or in a pantheistic format. In a Sikh way, there's a you know, so every religion has its own way of defining like Goddess.

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That's right. So what I was gonna say is that I cannot stand here as a theist and say that all of the attributes that the

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Koran talks about as it relates to God,

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are deducible rationally and logically. Because that would be, I think, a speculative claim and effects. We're not asked to do that. We're not asked believing that. In other words, we believe that God is Avraham, which means the Most Gracious,

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the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. Hakeem, the most wise, alpha dude, the most loving Yeah. If you were to ask me, is there a Have you got a rational or deductible way of finding out that God is loving? I'll say, Actually, I don't. And I don't think anyone can do that. Right now. The reason why we believe that God is loving, and because x y Zed, how rationality is because it is mentioned in the Quran. And the Quran, we believe has its own internal mechanism

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for deciphering for us,

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basically, we've got it. So in other words, the author of the Quran, we believe is God. And he offers evidence to prove this. And thus, when when this Quran tells us that God is x, y, Zed, we have reason to believe.

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That's the rationality we're coming from.

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Now, However, having said that, there are some of the attributes of what we would call God. But other people can call them other things. I mean, they do right. God is an English word that comes from a Greek or German. Yeah, I mean,

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this, this is a logical thing. We don't need to refer to that word. But God is the

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the intelligent force, or the intelligence,

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the knowledgeable,

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the knowledgeable entity, think, who could say

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that created the universe, I think there are some

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definite ways to deductively prove that.

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You see what I'm saying?

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So I can't say that all of the attributes,

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but some of the attributes.

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So my question to you would be like, so for example, if you look

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at what came before the universe, yeah. Yeah. And you might have heard this argument before, but

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what happened before the university?

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In your opinion?

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That is a very good question, because it's a question that, at least for me, personally, is a question I always used to ask my parents like, what came before that? what came before that? what came before that until the very beginning of time, we have like the the Big Bang and stuff like that. And wolf came before that.

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is very difficult to say. And that's,

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for me, that is also where my, like, non atheist, more agnostic side comes in that yes, that could very well be something before that. Something has to have created everything.

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Okay, let's use the word thing. Because it's completely unbiased. Yeah. Let's not use the word. Yeah. Okay.

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That would be a super imposition. unfair to the discussion.

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Right. So let's say the thing that came before the universe,

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such that what kind of qualities or attributes must this thing have had in order for the university? How about the universe?

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As a very, very good question.

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I think it's difficult. I think it's difficult to say that he must have been loving or anything that he was not. It's

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like, like, I would say, maybe the old powerful part of that you have in in Christianity, mostly that he is. Yeah. And Islam. I'm not sure of Islam as well. Yeah, I think that aspect is probably the most important part, to me, at least

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the old, like, that is where everything would have come from and that should all knowledgeable as well. Because Yeah, I would probably, I would probably add that as well. If we speak about an entity that I'm probably saying that those two are thing, and the the old loving is three, I don't necessarily agree with that. But all knowing and I will say that all of it is not necessarily necessary.

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For that to be universe. Right, exactly. That's why I said in the beginning, that of all the attributes

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that deductively that God is all loving that comes from the text. Yeah. So EXO factor, if you believe in the text that said, God is all loving, and that's proof. Yeah, just that, then that's when you can believe that. Yeah. Otherwise, there's no absolute evidence yet rational perspective and say that God is all of it.

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Having said this, so we've talked about knowledge and basically the ability or God's power or power for you so far, yeah. Now, let me let me ask you another question. Is it because if we said that before the universe,

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there was something and that thing

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for the universe has qualities like

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if we kept going backwards? Yeah.

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We say if we say that there was something before that, there was something else.

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We keep going backwards. infinitely.

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regressively

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in terms of

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an infinite regress Yeah.

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Yeah, I mean, obviously,

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it's paradoxical is that like something has to have created something? And if you go back, etc, etc?

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I think there's no, there's no definite answer to that. It's it's

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I mean, that's all these people are doing all these people have different views on that. I guess that's, that's that's the basic basis of it. I think. So.

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As for me, it's something I generally don't know, like,

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I have thought about it. But it's, it's something that I can accept that we'll probably never know. And I choose to accept it that way. And I do say that, though, if we go back to that entity that existed before the universe, yeah. We said that for in order for the university to basically exist in the way it does.

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In order for the universe to exist, in a way exists. Yeah. He said, we talked about power. You talked about knowledge. Yeah. All Powerful and knowledgeable. Would you add to that, that that entity? I'm not saying is God? Yeah, forget the word God, yeah. No longer in our vocabulary, I

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think, in this thing, and by the way, from an Islamic perspective, because someone might be watching me, I think it was this guy. So by God, I think we can actually call God thing, we're allowed to do that. Because in cibola, which is our second authoritative, like, how these works, God is referred to as shake, which means, so this entity or this thing

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that came before the university,

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basically, one or two or knowledgeable, all powerful. Would you add to that they had to be the first to avoid the paradox of the infinite regress.

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Yeah, so we're sticking with three things here.

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First powerful. So we have an entity that should be powerful or knowledgeable and is the first

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which led rise which allowed me to the the phenomena of the university.

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I can live without

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this entity, this thing,

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which allow the entity the thing of the universe is the phenomena of the universe to take rise to be caused, right?

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What do you think this entity wants from us? What Why do you think we are here on this planet? What is the purpose of life? Why are we here? Why has this entity done this? The question is, why not? Why has this entity done this? I was bored. Now.

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I think it's

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I think this entity may have started that. And okay, seeing this is all knowledgeable, he should have known how it ended up. That's fair enough.

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Well, I'm basically thinking like, like, why not? I guess, if you're, if you're all powerful, or what's the purpose of life for us as human beings, then

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what's the relationship we should have with this entity?

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Within this family

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record, we should acknowledge the entity in some way. And I think you should respect where we came from.

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And try to explain it as well. I like cuz if we say thing, thing can be anything can be all noticeable. But

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it could be essentially just some like that, yeah, it doesn't like so. So you have to explain it in whatever way you want. And I feel like that's, to me, that's most important. Like, I think it's really important that we try to explain where we came from, and we tried to delve deeper into who we are and watch what we're made out of. So I think that's a very good point. And I didn't let me just give you the Islamic narrative, right. The Islamic the Islamic narrative is that we believe

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this entity

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created the universe, sustaining the universe, not only is this the case, that entity is the first one called

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powerful because you have to have the creative capacity to be able to change the situation in the first instance.

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And that he

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will say he will not mean gender By the way, we just do it. Because Because of language, this entity, then

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then decided to create a balance of the universe to put a planet called Earth create a planet called Earth within the context of the universe Yeah, and to allow human beings to exist in that Earth. Yeah. When the human being now is existing in this earth, the human being

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is in built something in built with this human being, we believe is called the fifth

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fifth row which is not required which means it ignites predisposition,

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predisposition to acknowledge this entity to realize that this entity exists.

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Our tradition says that basically this, this predisposition is in believing that you will be quite similar to what they cost and by the way, secondly, they call emotional. We read this philosopher.

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He wrote a book called meditations and it's in the book in the

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meditations, he said, that all of us have the signature of God. All right, yeah, I've heard that. Yeah.

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Well, this is a very quite similar concept, because he's a rationalist as well, he's you read it, he said that all of us have the signature. What he means by that is the same thing, as we mean by that, that God, allow the human beings to fathom who he is. And to sum we would go further and say that the human being submitted to his will to God's will.

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He then sends messengers and prophets are for time with one simple message, which is to believe in one God and to worship of one God. Okay. So we believe that the first human being to ever be on this earth had that message. Yeah, we believe that that message was continued to other prophets and messages, and that that message was elaborated upon to all different communities.

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Okay.

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So we believe in prophets like Jesus, Moses and Abraham, we sit on the final prophet is Prophet Mohammed, II. And whereas all of those other prophets were sent to their people, in that time, Prophet Mohammed was sent to the whole of humankind.

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So this is our narrative. Well, what are your initial thoughts of that narrative?

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I wonder why it's limited.

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So I wonder why is limited to that the imprint is just mailing humans, and not on species in general? Or is so we will say it's not limited, actually. Yeah, it's limited like that as well. In fact, we have a version of her arm. In chapter three of the Corrado says that everything in the universe

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is basically submitting to his role.

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Either willingly or unwillingly. Yeah. So in other words, the laws of physics that we observe in the universe, which we can actually sometimes digitize and codify, you know, these laws of physics are God's laws of physics, he created them, you know, he made the laws of physics, because yeah, and this means that all of the things that are happening in the universe are in accordance with the will of God, and nothing could come outside of that world.

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Right? So we say there's two things, right?

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The message is all of them, they came with two primary things. They came with a message and it came with a miracle. So the message is always the same to believe in one God, and to worship one God, why believe in one God, because that is what you're meant to realize? where you came from your origins, right? Why worship one God, because that's what everything else in creation is doing. Everything else in creation is a submission to God. Therefore, Muslims say that it makes sense for human beings to fall within that parameter. And to basically be in line with all the other things in the universe.

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To see, therefore, the purpose of life to be one with nature, right, if you will, is do what nature is doing, which is submitting to the will of the creator of nature, to see if you see the narrative. Yeah. So this is a direction that this is coherent so far, does it make sense? Like what I'm calling this? Yeah, like I understand where you're coming from? Yes.

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Like I see the point. I am not sure about the first people that had the message, like you say, Jesus Iran said or Tara, because that makes me think,

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then is that, then in contrast with evolution theory, for you or not? is in contrast, what we first of all, I'll be honest with you, right? In terms of evolution as a theory? Yeah, we believe that

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is, first of all, it's a broad scale theory, and I've spoken about it before.

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Evolution encompasses what happens micro biologically, a macro biologically, it's a theory which has been re passionate really from the Darwinian period, post 1960s period, the post, the post,

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sort of 1960s period, where you could say, genetics, information of microbiology would come through the accessible and intermingled or sorry, amalgamated with the Darwinian theory. I mean, so if we talk about the whole of Darwinian theory, we don't say that all of it is right, and all of it is wrong. We say that those parts which we reject, are those parts, which are an aberration to the Islamic discourse, which wish I could say, one thing is definitely an aberration. We believe that the first human being was created directly from God. Yeah.

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Yeah. So we believe that Adam is the first human being that he was created directly by God. That's the same biblical thing, the Bible the people that we believe in the Bible.

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We don't believe I like Christians, we believe we are under no compulsion to believe that the universe is 6000 years old, or six days old, especially in old age creationists believe Yeah. Because in the prime the word yo which mean which refers to period could mean any period so it could mean 6 billion years yeah, we know that the universe is 14 billion years. Yeah.

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So, in terms of science as a discourse,

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one thing which is in contrast to science in the fraud, without a shadow of a doubt, is the belief in Adam. Yeah. So we will say that that belief

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is contradictory to popular notion, popular notions of evolution theory. So that's one thing. But then I would ask you a question.

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Since we know I mean, first of all, David Hume is a popular philosopher that was well known for his criticisms of induction. he outlined what he called the problem of induction, the problem of induction can be summarized as follows. If I go and see 100 fonts, and all of them are white.

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I mean, zero goes that you can't say that all swans are white, you know, exactly. And the same way just because we have certain fossil fossils in front of us. We can't assume that we have complete knowledge of the fossil record and or evolution in particular. So what our knowledge of evolution today is dependent upon the information we have on evolution of the fossil record and of microbiology, that might be that is subject to change as it has changed in the past. So there's nothing to suggest to us that this is a certain truth. And therefore, it doesn't pose an issue for us. Because in the past, and in Islamic history, you'll find that there are actual times where we

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believe in an inception of the universe. Yeah. Because in chapter 21, verse 30, he said that the universe came from one day the heavens in an effort was at one point in a golf club the most under

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the static state theory, which existed, obviously, in the pre 1900s. It goes against that. So the first one against static state theory, yeah. And postulated an inception of the universe at one stage. So Muslims have to accept that. Yeah. Now we know I mean, now it's been established, science has shown us that there has been an exception. So we can't we can't depend too much on scientific notions for absolute certain realities. And this is I've mentioned this point before, what I mentioned, again, this is this is detailed by someone.

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In his book, he wrote a book called paradigm shift. And he said that every once in a while, there's a paradigm shift. And not only the science change, but the framework within which science, science works, it also changes. So I mean, so can you see why from my angles, no problem, to not regard portions of the theory of evolution as a certain reality? Yeah, I can I can accept that. Yeah. Well, I'll tell you something, which I personally believe is an evidence, which you can use as evidence for the Islamic narrative. So the Quran, it makes a series of claims, right. One of the claims remains is that

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other than God, it says chapter four, verse eight,

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rather than God. Right. many contradictions. So the Quran postulates Yeah, that if this Quran was from other than God, yeah, then there would have been many contradictions. Right. Okay. So that's one challenge that the brand sets out is quite similar to society, ironically enough, since we were just talking about it. Because Science is built upon falsification. Yeah. So the idea is wrong. The whole theory collapses. Yeah, so the same thing, so the Quran allows the investigator a chance to disprove it. Yeah. And this is in line with enlightenment theory. Knowledge, right? Yeah. Well, you actually, you know, falsification Karl Popper. What he said about verification is oldest things that

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came up with a 1920 century spy interesting because there is a parallel between what the front end messengers in that you know, that's one thing number two, it says that to be sure to missile he was

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introduced

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to ISIS, in quantum theory, but if you had any doubt that this book is from God, then bring one chapter like it, and call your witnesses from beside God if you're truthful. So really, the front also claims that it's inevitable, that it cannot be imitated and his style and his unique literature literary approach. In addition to this,

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the Quran itself, he claims that the word a is like the verse, the equivalent of a verse in the Quran, it claims to be an evidence of proof

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and many reasons why we did why we believe that this is the case. One of the reasons is that we say that the Quran itself is a linguistic yeah jazz or

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which means something which is incapacitated. linguistically the Quran from an Arabic language perspective, does what any does what no other pros can do in Arabic? Yeah.

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So he creates an incredible kind of atmosphere, whereby, if the the listener is listening, he'll be drawn

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It

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encapsulated by it. So that's another evidence that is before but since we were talking about science, what is quite interesting

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is that it seems to be that those verses the 6,236% of

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those verses, which refer, which refer to naturalistic phenomena, if you actually collate them, and analyze them, my postulation is that you will not find

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that much disparity between today's scientific explanations. And at least one of the interpretations of some of those verses, in other words,

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I could say something in English. And it could could have two or three different meanings. So you can interpret it in two or three different ways.

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I'm saying to you that my estimation,

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the verses that reference science, there'll be at least one interpretation that we can take as 21st century observers,

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we will be able to correlate it with what we have discovered. So and I personally believe this is this shows you that the frog is a timeless.

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So once again, for example, we were talking about chapter 31, verse 30, by the inception of the universe.

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And if it is possible, it's not impossible for for human beings to make a parallel between the today's theory of singularity and inception. And that first hour talks about it all coming from.

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Certainly, if you continue the verses, it talks about all human beings created from water, which is

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similar to what we know, the revolutions of

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the sun and the moon, which is something we know today.

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And many other things. The fact that the fact for example, that there is a verse in chapter 51 of the Quran that talks about the universe expanding,

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expanding, which means the sky,

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right, so there are lots of things that we would say, are in line with today's discoveries that are not disparate from them. I'm not saying that you won't be able to find the classical Jesus,

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I either deflations of the book, something which will negate science, because that would be an incredible claim. All of those people that came in full time, none of them said anything scientific, that would be an incredible claim and easily disproven. But what I'm saying is that you'll be able to find at least one,

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one interpretation that is in line with a lot of what we know if there are contradictions, there'll be fewer numbers, eventually one of them today are being completely honest, one of the contradictions is a theory of evolution as it relates to the first human being. And had I been

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lying to you about all the other things, I wouldn't have been able to tell you that, quite bluntly, we don't accept that part of science is science, even though it's a theory, but some some scientists know this this evolution is evolution. So Fine. Let it be what it is. Now. We still we don't accept it. That part of it. So the point is, I'm saying is, Do you not see where we're coming from? So we have a book, which we believe is timeless, which is miraculous, and which is

00:28:17--> 00:28:44

being falsifiable. It's not being falsified? Yeah. from that angle, can you see where I'm coming from as Muslim? Yeah, I understand. I have to say, I didn't know this extensively about how that all works, so to speak. But I understand Yeah, I do understand where you're coming from, is that I want to is that that might be different from what the Bible claims are what Christian Christians claim. Guys don't know enough of both books. I haven't read either the Quran or the Bible. So I wouldn't know.

00:28:45--> 00:28:55

I'm completely trusting what you're telling me. No, that's so that's why it's difficult for me to make a judgement. But if that is all true, yes, I completely understand where Muslims come from, like, Why?

00:28:57--> 00:29:16

Why the Muslim religion is such a popular religion. Yeah, I'll tell you what, right? You talk to me about why I think making comparisons as pivotal as well, right? Because both of these religions are ancient religions. Christianity is an ancient religion, and Islam is an ancient religion. We're speaking about those two religions in hindsight Now, what I was gonna say to you is that if you look at the biblical discourse,

00:29:17--> 00:29:35

if you look at those verses, let's just use this naturalistic thing as an example, those verses that refer to a naturalistic phenomenon, unlike the Quran, where there are multiple ways you can interpret it, and I postulate that at least there will be one way, which you could say, is in line with what we know today.

00:29:36--> 00:29:50

That doesn't mean that doesn't disregard that there could be a contradiction. But what I'm saying about the Bible is that there is such a in my estimation, I'll give you examples with the references. There is such an incredible disparity between the scientific method

00:29:51--> 00:30:00

and the biblical discourse. If you are a fan of science or if someone who believes in it, you know that science is a strong way of realizing the environment around

00:30:00--> 00:30:04

Yeah, you couldn't come to terms with the biblical discourse in any way, right? Yeah.

00:30:05--> 00:30:14

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So for example, Genesis, right. Yeah. I mean, the idea that the universe. So if you look at Genesis, right,

00:30:15--> 00:30:21

the sun was created before. A sorry, the earth was crazy before the sun. Okay.

00:30:22--> 00:30:31

First first point. The second point is that the vegetation was created before the sun. But we know now from photosynthesis, right? Yeah.

00:30:32--> 00:30:34

Yeah. Same thing with, you know, the size of this shape.

00:30:36--> 00:30:36

Yeah.

00:30:38--> 00:30:44

So, lots of examples that we can use and the pillars of the job tips, number nine, verse number six.

00:30:45--> 00:30:53

This is complete. I mean, you couldn't try and make a match of any kind of match between the biblical discourse, right? And the

00:30:55--> 00:30:57

so the point I'm making here is

00:30:58--> 00:31:03

if you really analyze these religious books, you'll find genuinely that

00:31:06--> 00:31:09

you'll find really, that the front is really the only thing

00:31:13--> 00:31:16

almost as if it knows what's going on today.

00:31:19--> 00:31:21

The author of that book did know

00:31:25--> 00:31:26

I'll give you one thing actually, since

00:31:28--> 00:31:29

he told me about this because I find it interesting.

00:31:31--> 00:31:37

You know, in the Quran, chapter number 30 of the Quran is referred to as sort of Rome. chapter is called Rome. Yeah.

00:31:40--> 00:31:55

At the time of the Prophet Muhammad, there were two major empires, there was the Persian Empire and the Roman Empire. Those two Empire, it was like a bipolar system. So you had two major superpowers. And those two superpowers were fighting against each other, in terms of,

00:31:56--> 00:31:59

you know, trying to win over Empire from one

00:32:00--> 00:32:01

another's Empire.

00:32:03--> 00:32:24

What had happened is that the Romans at one point had been defeated. And this is known in western historic historical books, right? The Romans have been defeated by the Persians, the Koran had made a speculative claim in chapter 13, verses one to six, he said, the Romans have been defeated and claiming that the Romans have been defeated. But in three to nine years, they will defeat the Persians in a very nearby land.

00:32:25--> 00:32:31

And then on that day, the Muslims will be rejoicing, okay. Now, if we look at those verses, I

00:32:33--> 00:32:58

mean, if you think about it from a probabilistic perspective, if someone's going to make a future claim, that risk of gaining iraq if as a human being, yeah, so when the Prophet Mohammed, if it wasn't what he when he said it was being revealed to him, how he got this wrong, it would have been easy for you to disbelieve in a message. And look, you know, you've been completely discredited, because you said, in three to nine years time that this empire would triumph over this empire. Yeah, this didn't happen.

00:33:00--> 00:33:18

So therefore, you're wrong, and therefore the whole thing is wrong. And you know, right. So the point I'm making the incident, since it didn't materialize in exactly the same way as appropriate, silly words. Yeah. franssen. Rather would, the question would be that, how could it be like that from a probabilistic perspective, there are rational evidences.

00:33:21--> 00:33:22

Unless you got really lucky.

00:33:23--> 00:33:58

But then you ask another question, because this is one singular and isolated example. Yeah. Genuinely, I think there are so many examples. Yeah. So what are you saying essentially, that the Quran has been proven rights more often than the Bible or any other religious thing? What it is, is that the thing is not contradictory. There's two things. The first is it's not contradicting I mean, I mean, as we said, about science, we've had a discussion about science. So it's got a special relationship with science. Yeah. Which makes the person who's reading it able to associate with science and the Quran in a way which is not gonna drive the person mad, right. In other words, the

00:33:58--> 00:34:19

Bible is completely inspired from science and completely far away from it, whereas the Quran remains relatively close. Yeah, that's point one. Number two. We talked about predictions. Yeah. So the front makes predictions that are giving you one example, but there are many, right? So for example, in chapter 14 of the Quran, where it's mentioned that the Prophet Muhammad and his followers will conquer

00:34:20--> 00:34:35

Mecca. Yeah, yeah. And they will do so in a certain way. They'll shave their heads and they'll go in and do pilgrimage, etc. funerals, personal life and they're gonna go into their hair, and they're gonna have any fear. Once again, this could have been contradicted by the reality. Yeah.

00:34:36--> 00:34:39

It wasn't and obviously we have the evidence of that now because Mecca is a Muslim lays.

00:34:42--> 00:34:59

The Prophet himself made a series of prophecies and predictions. Yeah. Some of them is like, you know, he predicted globalization in a hadith that's related reliably upon the Prophet Mohammed, he said, then the future wt Carnival, which means putting all of the basically

00:35:00--> 00:35:38

close enough together of all of the global markets or the globe, oh, the markets. Therefore. I mean, this is one thing. Yeah, there is a hadith that talks about cars. Yeah. In fact, the word that's used in Arabic as such. Now, this word such, if you go back to the Arabic old Arabic dictionaries, and we're not being biased by looking at this, new dictionaries, the old Albert dictionaries, that says that these people will be on these cars, and the women will be coming out of those cars, if Cassie had to wear certain clothes, which are revealing, and that they will be dressed in naked at the same time, otherwise, they'll be wearing very close. Yeah, in the future.

00:35:41--> 00:35:43

operating in those cars.

00:35:45--> 00:35:56

These are examples of things that in the future, the prophet spoke about, that couldn't have ever been done at the time. And he made us, you know, he made a series of predictions like this, he talks about, he said,

00:35:57--> 00:36:00

as UI allowed, he said and reliably

00:36:02--> 00:36:24

predicted because we believe by the way, the fraud and Hades both come from the angel Gabriel from dog bites venture. He said that the Earth has been projected for me, for it. Masaryk, Ohio, Mahadeva eastern parts and its western parts. Yeah, we're in northeast, Ohio, isn't that certainly my people or my nation, the Muslims will reach its

00:36:26--> 00:36:36

own and basically those areas. So in other words, they'll be Muslims, west part of Arabia and eastward and westward of Saudi Arabia for the boys down on Saudi Arabia.

00:36:38--> 00:36:50

So this is exactly the kind of the kind of spread that did happen. If you look at the gold map, that's exactly what we've got. When he becomes even more specific, it tells us that Egypt will be will be taken over by Muslims, we are Muslim country, he tells us that

00:36:52--> 00:37:14

Yemen would be he tells us that a sham would be which is Syria, Jordan, etc. He tells us that, basically that there'll be a war between the Muslims and the Turks, which are which occurred more than one time, he tells us that'll be a war between Muslims and the Indians, which is delicate. So he tells us a list of things that materialized historically. And we would have to ask ourselves the question now, if he's saying all of these things,

00:37:17--> 00:37:20

where did you get that information from? The question is,

00:37:21--> 00:37:27

I do get your point. I understand where it comes from. But the question is, to some extent, I feel that

00:37:28--> 00:37:39

did he like that he predicted and it happened? Or did it happen? Because he predicted it? Because if you say that Muslims fulfilling prophecy, yeah, suffering positive, if he wrote down, Muslims will go east and west.

00:37:40--> 00:37:55

He said, then Muslims reading that say, let's go east and west, if they say we're going to Egypt, Muslims are soon to invade Egypt. And same goes with wars, etc, etc. The part about cause some of that? For sure. It's

00:37:57--> 00:38:01

some kind of strange coincidence in prophecy, whatever. Yeah. But the, like,

00:38:02--> 00:38:07

some aspects are self filling prophecy, I feel like Yeah, okay. Well, that's, that's

00:38:08--> 00:38:38

a good point. And in fact, it's a valid point, we have to be completely honest here. It could be a self fulfilling prophecy, but there's one aspect of it, which which can't be, because you cannot predict that your nation is the Prophet Mohammed will be able to, through power, be powerful enough to overtake those other places, or through other means we'll be able to be able to physically be a government for God, a governing force in those countries. And and especially, let me tell you this, especially when it's the case, that the Prophet Mohammed himself.

00:38:40--> 00:38:59

in the, in the early days, and most of these predictions were done in his, what he called the meccan period, where there were literally 10s of people that were Muslim. Yeah. Can you imagine a band of 30 people, the leader of that band, is telling them okay, you know, you're gonna, you're gonna, you're going to be in the Roman Empire, or you're going to have, you know, the Persian Empire. Well, I can't because

00:39:02--> 00:39:36

Okay, let's say then, that Islam got lucky. And that's why we now see it as as a prophecy. However, there must be 10s of hundreds of other religions, which have five or 10 followers, we say the exact same thing. I'm not saying it is the case, but I'm saying that could be the case. However, those religions then fell apart. And that's why we no longer know Okay, let me tell you one thing, which is interesting. If you look at what called soluble hearty, which is the second most authoritative book authors have put off for us. Yeah, there's a very specific prophecy that has given to someone called Soraka. Yeah, now this person swakop he at the time, listen to when this this is exactly the

00:39:36--> 00:39:41

story is a very long Hadith. So I'm going to give you the very abridged version of summarize version.

00:39:42--> 00:39:51

One point, I haven't lived in Mecca. He was trying to go from Mecca to Medina. Medina is a different place in Saudi Arabia and most of you heard of him

00:39:52--> 00:39:54

because he wanted to establish a safe haven

00:39:55--> 00:39:59

when he was in Mecca, and he was traveling to Medina. The Mecca chief the chief

00:40:00--> 00:40:18

So, he said that I put like a warning sign. wanted sign sorry. So that if you have this Mohammed Abdullah, Mohammed or if you catch him, then you have a big basically money reward. Yeah. So people try to catch him. So they get this one wrong.

00:40:20--> 00:40:27

This person Soraka followed him with his, as mentioned this amplifier, which is the most authoritative book, first most authoritative history.

00:40:29--> 00:40:33

When followed the Prophet Mohammed with his whole source,

00:40:34--> 00:41:08

he came closer he you know, as they came close to the port Mohammed and his, the horse's legs basically sank into the sand. So, like, you know, it does happen, right? Yeah, he kept doing that, because the sun, you know, he found me quite weird. So he said something in tribal language, which was like, I will give you a mocha, I intend peace, right? Yeah. So the professor allowed him to come closer. The problem I had was a wrestler, he said to this person Soraka, he said in the future. So silica was quite surprised, right? Because he said, This can't be the case that you know, I kept trying to come closer to you. But the host kept sinking into the ground.

00:41:09--> 00:41:23

He was so surprised that he said, I testified that you're the Messenger of God, because he claims to be the Messenger of God, right. As he did this, he responded to me, he said to him, particularly specifically, he said, You will handle

00:41:25--> 00:41:29

the treasures of proceeds, you will handle the treasures of

00:41:30--> 00:41:32

kisara, which is basically

00:41:34--> 00:41:44

the person the person can get the potion leader they want. But he that was the honorary title for the leader of the Persian empire that time, okay.

00:41:46--> 00:41:55

At the time of armor, which is exactly about, let's say 16 years after, according to his book, but they own the hair at the time of this

00:41:56--> 00:42:01

top, which is a successor to the profit. So profit died at the time when

00:42:03--> 00:42:08

there was an expansion to the Roman Empire. Yeah, when the expansion happened,

00:42:10--> 00:42:42

there was a war between the Muslims and the Persians, and the Muslims won the war and the governance changed governance to a Muslim government. Yeah. This Soraka came closer and honorable hottub, who was the governor at that time, and the leader of the Muslims, he said, Come closer to this message, and handle the treasures that you are told that you are going to be handled? So in other words, it's not very, it's not. I mean, all religions have You're right. Actually, I can testify from reading the Bible myself, that all religions have, in them predictions of the future, like, Oh, you know, in the future, there'll be more

00:42:43--> 00:43:03

elsewhere, earthquakes are natural design. We'll have that as well. Yeah. In the future, there'll be this general trend. But when we talk about very specific prophecies, yeah, they aim to, to defy a probability theory. Yeah. Which would otherwise, like, from a probability theory perspective, it's very difficult to say that that kind of level of precision could be found.

00:43:08--> 00:43:09

Yeah, I understand the point.

00:43:12--> 00:43:27

And I feel like, again, in some parts, it could still be explained as self filling prophecy. But that is where that is where the argument of I feel like that's mostly my argument, belief comes in, where some people accept that as being so specific that it couldn't couldn't be made by anyone else.

00:43:28--> 00:43:30

You see that three to nine years, for example? Yeah.

00:43:32--> 00:43:56

Now, I do accept that. Yeah. And yeah, like I said, some people will see that as being God, nobody will see that as a cellphone policy. But I think that there's no, there's not gonna be one one answer to that. But I, I mean, like I said, I do accept the point that that is odd. And I have to say, I didn't know that. Yeah. So yeah, no, I think I'll tell you what, I want you to can you do me a favor? I feel like thrilled to have this conversation with you.

00:43:57--> 00:44:01

I'm gonna give you my number. Office off camera so that people don't

00:44:04--> 00:44:06

I'll send you some information. I just read the

00:44:07--> 00:44:08

knowledge is power. I

00:44:10--> 00:44:15

read the Quran. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I'm honestly not sure. I've heard conflicting stories about that.

00:44:17--> 00:44:21

We want that to be the case. Which way we're trying to spread it cuz we believe it's true.

00:44:23--> 00:44:24

I'll send you some links.

00:44:26--> 00:44:44

To oregon.com Yeah. I mean, literally, you'll see the front front of me. Yeah. You don't need to read the whole thing. 16,236 verses? Yeah, I'll say that just just read the message, the core message, the arguments? Because we believe that that one of the evidences of Islam, or the cogency is the cogency of the arguments presented in each surah.

00:44:46--> 00:44:48

Right, in this chapter, I really, really

00:44:49--> 00:44:56

I'll give you a chance to look at it, and I'll give you my number so you can ask me any questions that you want that sound alright. Have you got any questions for me as well?

00:44:58--> 00:45:00

I think it's a fascinating subject. Really.

00:45:00--> 00:45:12

In general, I, I feel like many people, at least many Western people don't know much about Islam, the Quran and stuff like that. So that's why it's interesting to like, I think I've learned more in the past 10 minutes and in the past about 10 years about it, it's fantastic.

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