I Left Zionism for Palestine – Ncamisile Pamela Ngubane

Sooner recommended Rahim Al hamdu lillah wa salatu salam ala Rasulillah sallAllahu alayhi wa sallam Obeid Assalamu alaykum warahmatullahi wabarakatu. You might have seen that recently we were in a very important very enlightening discussion with Reverend Dr. Ellen Buzek, we in we dealt with some of the Christian perspectives on Palestine, Israel, Zionism and the apparent support that we see coming from Christian Zionists, which I think is a very important element in the liberation struggle for Palestine. With me today, we have a very special guest, who I was privileged to meet in Johannesburg, at the big conference that was held the the fifth annual global return to Palestine,

which was organized by the grandson of the late president of South Africa is Nelson Mandela, in front of Mandela, Mandela, very, very, you know, a beautiful experience for me because of the networking especially, and some of the people that we meet the So alhamdulillah I've, I've requested our guest to, you know, graced us with a presence in the podcast. She's based in Johannesburg. So we have an online, and we're going to use some, I think, enlightening, you know, narratives in relation to what we spoke about with Reverend Dr. Adam posek. So let me introduce her in shallow data. And name is, and I'm going to, I'm going to try to get this right, because I've been practicing Nami,

sila, Pamela and go body. And I am so privileged and happy to have her with us. So this is me being on screen.

Good day feminine. So I like them while you're doing

well, like salaam, I'm well, thank you. And thank you, you got my name just right.

Excellent, nah, I'm, you know, I think that it's, it's the least you can do to show respect to one another, for for Muslims. You know, we come with these Arab Arabic names. And for some people, it's, it's done to us this. So if other people have to accommodate us, then you know, we should surely accommodate other cultures and other expeditions and other languages. Once again, thank you for joining us. It's a privilege to have you with us.

Thank you so much for having me on your show? Absolutely. Let's get straight into it. Because part of the questions is, in fact, you know, to request an introduction from yourself. So, as Krishna, number one, would you please describe your journey from Christian Zionism, to being a Palestinian activist, which I think is a very unique perspective that we don't come across every day.

Well, there are other people who've had the similar journey, I think it's just that I am quite a vocal person. And I was very loud, about my conversion. And so that's why people know about it. But, you know, one of the people that I met, right at the beginning of my journey towards being pro Palestinian, in my outlook was Reverend moss and clap. He's the head of the Evangelical Alliance of South Africa. And he used to be a Christian Zionist, his name is Moses, and he's most short. And his father is David. So his family was very much Israel oriented. And he says that when he went to Israel, as part of a Jewish National Fund tree planting events,

he noticed that during the process of them planting these trees, there was an old Palestinian man watching them. So after the whole tree planting thing, he went to the man and he said, Hey, what's up? Who are you what's going on? You know, the man says, you see that forest that you planting? You're planting it over my village of Libya.

Yeah. And then he took him through the forest. And he showed them houses, foundations, Chimneys, that had been demolished houses that have been demolished by Israel during the occupation process of Palestine. And from that, he, you know, he turned his back on Zionism and he became a Palestine activist and he he and Dr. Frank chicken, they work very close together. So there's a lot of people you know, and on the Jewish side is Miko pellet, you know, he's one and there's a whole lot of other Jews who grew up very strong Zionists and realize the truth and turned against it, just like, you know, bears no idea when he growing up in Africa and approved upon a child of African nationalism, a

deacon in the Dutch Reformed Church, you know, using the Bible to justify apartheid. And after Charlottesville, he realized there is absolutely no way I can support this insanity. So

yeah, there's a lot of people who have a change of hearts and so it's fantastic to

see

I, personally my journey, I actually out it was a very short stint as a Christian Zionist, I must say, I mean, I was born again. Now born again means you're a Christian, but maybe you're mediocre or you've left the faith and then you come back into being a conscious Christian, who is seeking to be a disciple of Jesus the Christ, right, the Messiah. And you undergo a process where you basically recommit your life to Christ. As his disciple, you get baptized, and now you're living as a new creation, so to speak, as the Bible says, that's what you become, you know, when you accept God through the teachings of the Messiah. So I had that process, December 2019. And then I started

watching a lot of Christian

programming on TV to learn more about who is Jesus, what does it mean to be a follower of his, you know, and in the process, I learned that, you know, he was Jewish, which I didn't really know, I grew up Catholics, the Catholics don't really talk about the Jewish and the Hebrew heritage of Christianity,

which is a big problem. But I think that's another story altogether. Anyway.

And in the process, I started becoming indoctrinated into Christian Zionism, like I did not know that I'm becoming a Christian Zionist at all. One thing I did know was that there was something called the prosperity gospel theology, which basically is very transactional. You know, if you give a church some money, God is going to pay you back. Now, since you know my journey away from Christian Zionism, I started to read the Holy Quran. And God does say that you can give him a goodly loan you give him you, you spend in the way of Allah subhanahu wa taala. And you will get back something in return. So it's not like there's no premise for that. However, this is just a money

making scheme that exploits poor people. So I was very conscious to steer away from that crazy nonsense. But I had no idea that I had to also be aware of the danger of Christian Zionism. So there, I was happily watching stuff. You know, I'm a history student as well. And I was like, so enthralled by this ancient history of Israel and the Jewish people that I was learning, you know, and just shocked that I had not been exposed to this was such a rich and deep history, you know.

Then I started watching a show called Jerusalem Dateline, with the host, Chris Mitchell, who I actually met when I was taken to Israel as part of the Bridges for Peace Institute for Israel studies training in May 2022.

And this is all about synchronizing the news of Israel with biblical prophecy. Okay, so it's very exciting. And I'm like, a huge fan of anyone who teaches eschatology, you know, I'm really interested in the in times.

Because I think, you know, like most people, it would be so great if this craziness could just end and the Messiah could be king over the earth and we could all live in peace and harmony, you know, like the Bible says, The Lamb will lie down with the wolf and the child will play next to a Viper's pit to not fear any danger, you know, kind of just happen, like right now, you know. So, in the process, you know, I, like I say, I became indoctrinated into Christian Zionism. Next thing, you know, I am going to meet the Jewish board of deputies, and pledging my support to them in their fight against the African National Congress's obsessive vendetta against the State of Israel, you

know, and it was basically in the frame of I wanted to do my master's in history. And I want to look at the historical processes that led the ANC in 2017, to pass a resolution committing itself to downgrading the Embassy of South Africa in Tel Aviv to a liaison office.

So, you know, as I say, I'm very vocal. So I started, like speaking out in defense of Israel, during its various military operations against the Palestinians, in particular guardian of the walls in May 2021.

So it was, I think, in December 2020, that I decided I want to do this research about the ANC its resolution. So I attended a rally that was being held by African Zionist Federation in Joburg in May 2021. And at some point, you know, after everyone had made their speeches, they asked if anyone from the audience wants to speak, and I went on the stage and I spoke and I said, you know, as a Christian, I believe that it's my duty to stand with Israel. Jesus was a Jew. These are his people. We need to defend them against anti semitism.

them, our country is going down because of our hatred for the Jewish people. God will bless those who bless Israel, let's be blessed by God by placing Israel, you know, very nice political speech, which got the attention of the Jewish board of deputies and the Zionist Federation. And then they hired me. And I started working for them officially in December 2021. And just before that, oh, and at that same time

and slipping into my role as the General Manager and spokesperson, one of the spokespeople outside the confines of Israel. There was a campaign to support labellum Swan, Ms. South Africa, in her desire to attend the Miss Universe pageant in a lot in Israel. Right. And so I was, you know, leading debates, I wrote an article saying that we should back her.

Now, you know, when I think about how easy it was to make a case for Lala Swanee, going to Israel. Look, the girl was just trying to follow her dreams she's on a political person is actually very fed up by how politicized her whole thing was done by the Jewish board of deputies and Zionist Federation. So it is you got to give her like the benefit of the doubt, you know, she's just trying to promote to Korea.

But I just need to say like, the debates, depth of debate in this country about Palestine is very shallow. And it's the media is pathetic about it. That's why people can be Christian Zionists. That's why the Zionists are just happily going about their will cancel Africa. They've got chapters in every university across the country, basically, this African Union of Jewish students, which is a Zionist outfit, you know, they sound like it's just kids trying to stop anti semitism, what anti semitism is in South Africa, let's just stop there. There's not only anti semitism that we have going on, is the government's anti Zionist stance against the apartheid colonial state of Israel.

That's it. That's not anti semitic, right. However, they and the Jewish board of deputies and the Zionist Federation, their whole mission is to fight anti semitism in South Africa, which is fighting criticism of Israel, basically any form of anti Zionism, basically. Yeah. You know, and so as to like,

so looking back, I just think, wow, how pathetic is our media? You know, these people should be really investigating Zionism. It's a serious issue, obviously. And they should be, they should be investigating Christian Zionism, because it is a very powerful ideology, and political force in this world, very, very powerful, just as powerful as Zionism, with way more numbers added on people at its disposal, you know, anyway, so there, I was happily believing I'm doing God's work so proud of myself. And, you know, also my family is very conservative, right. And my mom and my aunt are Christian Zionist. So

we don't really talk about my change of hearts very deeply, except I've coated some Bible verses to them, exposing the Zionists as actually not kosher Jews. So we've left it at that, you know, like, just recently, she asked me, why did why is South Africa involving itself at the ICJ and I said, it's an expression of their global south oriented foreign policy. And that was the end of that, because it's, you know, I've always been a rebel. In my family, I've always been an outsider, that person who's always got to ruffle the feathers and rock the boat, because she just can't be satisfied with the status quo. I've always been a person. And so when I became a Christian Zionist,

I honestly believed I was rocking the boat in defense of the poor Jewish people who have to suffer anti semitism, again, in the form of anti Zionism, because why shouldn't the Jewish people have a homeland where they can be safe from the evil anti Semites of this world? You know, surely Israel is there, right. And we owe it to them, especially as Christians because there was Christianity being abused in Europe, which led to the Holocaust and all sorts of evils that the Jewish people suffered, you know? So, here I am, fighting the good fight, I believe, and also I'm finally on the right side of my family's conservative culture. You know, I'm not very happy about life.

So that's December 2021.

December 2022.

Literally, a year later acts just crazy. Benjamin Netanyahu basically sells his soul

in order to keep himself in power by making an alliance with these

I don't know what to call these people. You know, they're they're satanic. Let's just be honest with ourselves and

I'm

Jewish extremists, you can't call them Jewish. These are not Jews, these, I don't know what they are, but they're just extinct. They were abused Judaism and their extremists black bezel or Smotrich. It's a makeup and gear. So when this government is bought into power in December 2022, I'm like, Whoa, we can't just support these people. I mean, these are like, evil people, they hate Palestinians. They also hate Christians and Christianity, and they hate Jesus. I don't know about you. But you know, Jesus is the reason why I have a mind that's functioning, and I'm not insane and despairing about the future of my life, and this world. So anyone who hates him, I can't be, you

know, Tommy's with that person. So anyway, I pointed out to my bosses that

these people are a problem, it's gonna be a problem defending Israel, if these are the kinds of people who are representing. So basically, if I can, if I can, if I can just sort of, you know, pick your brain and this one, you will push at this point, by the fact that these hardcore, right wing, extremist Zionist, they were now coming into power, so it was a bit too much for you, you could see the, the the hatred, and you were not blinded, so to speak, by your support for Zionism. Rather, you could see that as an objective person, these guys are but overboard. Is that correct? Yes. Basically, I just was like, This is madness. So also, people started protesting against the judicial

reforms that they were proposing, right? So I said, Okay.

There must be a point here, because, you know, what the heck are these people actually trying to do?

Which also led me to like study about the judiciary of Israel? And I realized, oh, they actually don't have a constitution. Hmm, what's that about? Oh, they actually don't have internationally defined borders. What kind of Estates is that? You know, and then they repealed the disengagement Act, which underpins the two state solution within the mechanisms of the Oslo Accords, right. And I said, I tweeted, I said, First, I already tweeted in support of the protesters, then I tweeted, anyone who believes in a two state solution should be up in arms about what these people have just done by repeating with this engagement act. Then my boss at the Zionist Federation sends me a

message you can't say this. You're the general manager of scifi. It looks like the society's position. I said it should be se position. Because what are we doing, supporting people who are trying to dismantle the two state solution pointed out to him were lobbying for Israel, based on the Government of South Africa, the African Union,

believing that Israel is committed to a two state solution, so if they're going to disengage, repeal the disengagement act and undermine the two state solution, upon what basis? exactly am I supposed to go to the African government and tell them that this is a legitimate partner for peace in the peace process with the Palestinians? On top of that?

These people are just so racist against the Palestinians. So not only do they not want peace, not only do they not wanting to state solution, but they are like out to get the Palestinians, you know, so I said, as a Christian, I have to have compassion on the Palestinian people, because clearly, they're the targets of these crazy people now, you know, anyway, that conversation never went anywhere. But I continue to just grow in my disgust for these people. And then there was the Hawara probe, pogrom, you know, and so it's like, no way.

And so I said, Look, guys, as black Christians, who actually suffered under apartheid, and whose people are still suffering, the effects of apartheid, we cannot continue to support the State of Israel in its current form. So let's start talking peace

with the Palestinians supporters by having public dialogues with them, you know, because then it will show that as Christians, we believe in what Jesus said, Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God. Right?

They weren't really hearing it.

And I said to myself, well, maybe they just need to be convinced. You're right. So I'm gonna do my research. I'm gonna write a really beautiful proposal and make it make sense to them by this is the only plausible path for Safie if it's going to be remain a credible organization within the general public of South Africa. You know, it's easy to convince a bunch of radicalized Christians, whatever radical perspective, but for the broadest African population, you know, let's have some credibility, you know, so anyway, I said, if I'm going to talk to the Palestinian side, obviously have to know what they're on about

why they support Palestine why they

So anti Israel, what's this BDS thing about? Why are they so committed to the ending of Zionism? Why are they calling it white? What do they call it an apartheid state?

And so obviously have to do this research. And so I started doing this research and ish. Yeah, it was really traumatizing because I did not expect, like I didn't, I wasn't planning to be set in this situation right. Now, of course, I was planning to promote peace, while supporting Israel, believing as a friend of Israel,

I have to help them

to do the right thing for their own future. You know, I your so when I was doing this research, you know, reading Edward Saeed, who is who was a Christian,

really were Christians, they were kicked out of their house. And now their house today, in West Jerusalem, a beautiful stone villa, like so many beautiful stone villas that belong to Palestinian families, Christian Muslims and Jews who are kicked out of Palestine, their houses stolen. Golden Mejia, for example, lived in one of those houses that was stolen from wealthy Palestinians in West Jerusalem.

The loader family lives in one of those houses, you know, I don't know if they bought it later from someone else who had stolen it, but stolen property. But the International Christian Embassy in Jerusalem, which is one of the biggest Christian Zionist organizations in the world, and it has a branch that Africa has its headquarters in Edward say Utes family home. Sure.

You know, there was just one. There was one, and I was like, What the heck.

So I mean, it still takes my breath away, you know, how people can lie. Lie still cheats, murder.

What are the more you were reading? And the more you would be searching, the more you were convinced that you're standing on the wrong side of this thing?

Yeah, totally. I mean,

you hear these things in passing, you know, when you hear BDS protesting a woman have to give birth at checkpoints and you don't come you don't process it. Because in your mind, you just think, well, it must be a one off thing from some overly radicalized overzealous IVF soldier who doesn't know what he's supposed to do. You know, it's not government policy, then you realize it actually is when you hear about how the Palestinian people are called the demographic threat. I'm like, wait a minute word. Wasn't Moses a demographic threat? You know? So I'm just like, wasn't Jesus a demographic threat? You know, and I'm just like, Okay, this, this is deep.

So in the process, yeah. You know, I just went deeper and deeper into my research, and I was so traumatized. I was devastated. I could not believe that this was the truth that had been hidden from me, by the people. You know, it would have been one thing, if it was just a political thing.

But the fact that that we're using my belief in God,

and in His Prophet Jesus,

to support the genocide of the Palestinian people, not just physical genocide, but spiritual, cultural, historical genocide of the Palestinian people. I was just, I was devastated. You know, I had cognitive dissonance. I was sick, like physically sick. I was in bed crying. I was a mess. Okay.

And but I still thought, okay, maybe we can redeem this situation, you know, maybe we can still

push Israel to be a peace, partner for peace. But the more I read, the more I realized that, you know, the swearing in of this government by of Benjamin Netanyahu in December 2022 was not an anomaly.

It was a trend. You know, since the 70s, when manakin, Bagan became prime minister under the Likud party banner,

Israel has been marching towards a more extreme position towards the Palestinians, towards settlements towards the annexation of the land towards a commitment to annexing Greater Israel, which is from the Nile River to the Euphrates.

Those that's what those two blue lines on the fly of Israel.

And I'm sorry, but it's just ironic that they they claim from the river to the sea is a call for genocide. They literally have a flag representing the intentions.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And people don't understand at all, you know, so yeah, basically from December 2020 to until April 2023. I moved completely to the other side of this big

Trump, I resigned my job in April 2023. Last year, April. And it was just, I had no choice. I had no choice. I was so disgusted. So angry, I still am. And I never spoke to any of the Zionists, again, if any of the Jewish scientists and I've never spoken to any of them again, okay, the Christian Zionist, whoever engages with me, I speak to them, because that's my commitment to my Master Jesus Christ, that I have to first of all, defend his honor to these people who are lying about him that he would ever support this massacring of the Palestinian people. And also do what he says in the book of Matthew, that if one of your brothers is sinning and doing wrong, you need to help them to

the right path. Right. So that's why I still engage my Christian Zionist brothers, Christian brothers and sisters who have been misled by Zionism. But for the Jewish Zionist, I can't, because they know exactly what they're doing. They're like akin to those people who supported the apartheid state. I don't want to have anything to do with those people. I'm so disgusted in them, shocked that they would weaponize anti semitism and bamboozle well meaning people who believe that they are doing God's will?

I can't Yeah.

Sure, what a journey. I mean, I've so many, so many side Christians do that, that journey. But, you know, to try and stay on point, I think one of the confusing issues that comes about is, look as a Muslim theologian myself, and understanding a bit of the perspectives, you know, from the Jewish tradition, as well as the Christian tradition, I understand the complexities of religion. So I try and refrain from

reaching conclusions about positions within another faith very easily. And for that reason, I speak to people who either are theologians themselves, or have experience to a certain degree from that faith. Now, I've already pose certain questions to Reverend Dr. Aaron Vasek. My question to you is, why do we find that on the one hand, you have, you know, your position, that of Dr. Bozak, and, you know, many other Christians who stand firmly for justice, who do not support Israel in the least, and who even expressed support for the Palestinian cause? Because for them, it's a humanitarian issue. They seen innocent people being killed on mass, they are seeing genocide before the eyes,

yet, at the same time, and some of the comments on ductable sex tick tock videos, because I changed, you know, I took the longer podcast, and I turned it into some shorter tick tock videos.

Some people's comments were quite alarming, you know.

And it made me aware of the fact that look, this is a deep issue here, because the people saying the polar opposite of what of what he's saying, there are people calling him, Satan, and, you know, this is this believer, and, and so the list goes on.

And while we don't take these comments seriously, sometimes when they are, you know, abandoned, and they're saying more or less the same thing, you pick up a trend, there's something happening here. So clearly, this dichotomy of views. My question is, do we find that the majority of Christians, from your perspective, are supportive of Israel and Zionism? Or is the is the bit blurry to call, you know, to make a call on that? And then more importantly, why exactly do you find this dichotomy? I think you've given us a bit of an answer already. In that there's a lack of education on the facts. There's, there's a lack of awareness about the reality of Zionism and what they're actually

doing. But then the deeper question, then, is the religious perspective. So some Christians believe adamantly that their religion requires of them to be in supportive of Israel? In which case, even the facts, would they really make a difference as to what's happening on the ground? Or would it be come hell or high water, I'm standing in support of Zionism, because I believe that that's my duty as a Christian, and then you have the polar opposite view. So again, the two part question number one, the majority position among Christians. And number two, this dichotomy, right? So why do we find this that that, you know, people are so so split by this particular issue?

The majority of Christians don't support Israel. The majority of people don't even know what Zionism is and what's going on.

The reason why they are those people who do support Israel

is two reasons. Generally, you can like break it down, either. There

completely ignorance about what the Scripture says

about Israel and about God's will for the Holy Land.

And they've been because of the theological ignorance just like me. I mean, I didn't know anything about the Bible. I just was being eating up whatever I'm seeing on TV. And the thing is, is this now, on those programs that I was watching

the spectrum of shows it was either they were quiet on the issue of Israel, or they were pro Israel. There was no voice on those channels. That was anti Zionism.

So it doesn't your mind says, Oh, well, obviously, it's an optional extra to support Israel. And there's nothing wrong with it. Right. And I've pointed this out to other theologians and leading priests that I've spoken to that, why have you guys abandoned people like me to these Christian Zionist? You know, so there's not enough space? At the same time, you must understand Zionism is highly funded. And it's a very lucrative business, they may tell you, Okay, so, either they don't know, and they've been bamboozled. Or they're getting money out of it. And a lot of money. Yeah. It's,

it's not a hidden thing. Okay, there is millions, if not billions of dollars at the disposal of the Zionist lobby.

And so, and this is also very much stressful. And I think, I don't know if Dr. Allan Poe SEC when he was speaking to you pointed this out. But

when I joined South African friends of Israel actually watched an interview of his in response to Chief Justice McQueen working with Professor Fareed, Issac right on the Africa for Palestine platform. And Reverend poussette was saying that Chief Justice McWane is part of the prosperity gospel. Remember I told you about the prosperity gospel that I try to steer clear of? He says Chief Justice, moonwalking, here is a he's a pastor in a prosperity Gospel Church. So it's not surprising that he's gonna get Christian Zionist. Why? Because Christian Zionism has a gospel of its own. Okay? It's, it's a heretical religion, we can call it cause Paul says, that anyone who's not following

Christ has created another Christianity and another gospel. So Christian Zionism is another gospel. It's the gospel of bless Israel. And God will bless you, because Israel and God will curse you. That's the gospel of Christian Zionism. It has nothing to do with Jesus

at all, because if you put him front and center,

there's a lot of theological disparities between Christian Zionism and the gospel of Jesus Christ. So

there's a lot of money.

Like no doubt, there is a lot of money, pastors get flown to Israel, they get pampered, they get treated. I mean, I was flown to Israel, free of charge, by Bridges for Peace,

Bridges for Peace as part of the Christian allies caucus in the Knesset.

Right? So there's money and there's power and closeness to power. Right? Just like how far around in the Quran says I will bring you close to me. If you support me against Muslim, same thing. If you support Israel, you're gonna meet Benjamin Netanyahu, you're gonna be in the Knesset too. You could even find yourself speaking at APEC, which is someone touted for me one once, that could be my future, you know. So the prestige levels are huge. The potential to make money is huge. You know, I mean, look at people like Olga, unweighted metric driven, Kenneth measures daughter, she goes around the world speaking in defense of Israel. She was in Geneva at some points with that's run at kennel

camp guy, the one who coined the phrase, the most moral army in the world, in making the case for Israel, you know, so the prestige level is huge. There's a lot of money, a lot of money. And if you're a pastor who's poor, or an or a leader of a poor community, and designers come to you and say, support Israel, God will bless you. And you say, Sure, I'll support Israel. And then they come and they bring food parcels for your people, then they take you to Israel, then they have a beautiful event at your church and they feed everyone and it's all wonderful. And not only are they helping your people, but they're raising your social profile in the community. They're giving you

some perks as well here and there, you know.

In your mind, yeah, this is God's blessing made it Yeah, you know, you you're in, you know, and then you've got an open door to the Israeli embassy. You're meeting the ambassador prestige, right? You're helping your people prestige. So

if your mind trying

leads God's blessings in material forms like the prosperity gospel does, right? That's why you have people like Kenneth Copeland saying, God has blessed me with this new private jet, or Creflo Dollar.

You know, God has blessed me with this mansion. You know, if your understanding of God's blessings or material blessings, then obviously you're gonna fall in line with Christian Zionism. However, if you know what the Bible actually says about the real blessings of God, you will know that they are not material blessings, because King David said, that more precious than rubies and gold is to love the law of God and to love to live according to that law. And when he died, he said to his son, King Solomon, he said, be a man and walk the path that God has laid out for you. Right, and King Solomon himself when God said to him, What blessing would you like from me? He said, I would like the wisdom

to be able to live according to your laws.

Over a wealth of a power, you know, it's interesting in relation to what you're saying is that just the other day, I was making a comment about David and Goliath, you know, because the incident is mentioned in the Quran or be it in summary, and I to pre m not preempt it introduce the study by saying, Look, some people might be confused by this, because in the minds of people, David is from the Israelites. So what do we have to do with them? So the Quran is such that it's not about which nationality which ethnicity, you know, somebody's a prophet came from most of the prophets were from the Bani Israel or the children of Israel. And we believe in all of them, we believe that they're

the prophets of God. So when we ascribe ourselves to them, like Jesus, like Moses, like, like David, etc, then it is our sincere belief that these are our prophets. We don't feel as though speaking about other people's prophets. And the fact that Goliath comes from the Philistines, there's no relation to the Palestinians as they are today. It's not that you know, because they share name, it's not the same thing. So my point in that something that I didn't really think about before, but of all the qualities that David and Solomon had, and all of the riches that they had, and all of the talents that they had God given miracles at their hands, when it comes to the Islamic tradition

about them, Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, said very few things about them. But one of the things he said was the best pray, is the prayer of David. And the best fasting is the fasting of David, he said, used to play for half of the night basically, and he would sleep for the other half. And he would fast one day, and he would not fast the other day. These are the qualities that the highlight of him, he didn't speak about his stone throwing skills, he didn't speak about his riches. He didn't speak about his kingdom, he didn't speak about, you know how powerful he was, and the things he had control over. His emphasis to us as Muslims was the piety of day, if you want to

achieve what he achieved, then you need to have the type of lifestyle that he had. And lifestyle day doesn't mean what it means today. lifestyle was his life with God, his relationship is his piety that just says it's an interesting side note, because while the Islamic tradition draws on the same prophets, it somehow always seems to draw on different teachings from these prophets. That other traditions don't necessarily, I didn't see it, at least, you know, held as high. Yeah, I just thought I'd throw that in there.

Yeah. And this is one of the very real issues that Christians and Jews need to grapple with.

The scriptures have been

undermined, in terms of their function. Why were they sent, they were sent so that we could live proper lives in relation to what God put us on this planet for which, in reading the Holy Quran, I realized, oh, it's to worship Him. So Christian Zionism and Zionism in general, one of its pillars, if not its foundational cornerstone, is Islamophobia.

Okay? They cannot be an accommodation of Islam as a valid religion of the one true God, if Zionism is going to succeed, and this is why they bombed mosques. This is why they storm out Aqsa, you know, to desecrate the holy places of the Muslim people to say this is not a valid religion of the one true God. There's whole sermons that you can find online very sickening and blasphemous and sermons. Denouncing Islam, like I don't wanna go there because it's like horrific, okay. And so

Christianity in the west and Zionism, they are colonial colonialist readings of the Bible. It's it's the Bible at the disposal of the imperialists, that's that's what, that's what Zionism is both Christian and Jewish, and imperialism, you know. So, I think this is also one of the things which is just, you know, ever since though the war on Gaza, the genocide began, your, you know, I've been, like, so uneasy, you know, as a person, like, just saw an easy because it's like, I realized the evil that's in this world,

the spiritual evil, you know, and it's, it's like, we read about it, obviously, in the scriptures, but when you seeing it happening, and you and you hearing it being articulated, it's like, wow, how can it be?

Yeah, it's, it's, it's so like, It's distressing. It really is distressing. You know, ever since I started to read the Holy Quran, which was actually on the day, I lost step set foot in the office on the 25th of April last year, which ostensibly was also the, or incidentally, what's also the Jewish, the Israeli Independence Day, your maximum.

You know, so that was the last day I stepped office, foot in that office, I'd given them back all the stuff they loaned me to do my job, like a laptop, whatever.

And I started listening to a audio book, sensing Islam channel on YouTube, of the Holy Quran, you know, and obviously, I started from the beginning with our fatsia.

And, you know, I was like,

I didn't expect that. I didn't not expect what I heard. I thought I was going to hear, you know, like, a whole list of things that you have to do and don't do and the history, you know, and then I heard this prayer to God. And I was just like, What is this? How is this possible? How can I have not known that this depth of spirituality is existing in this world? Because I'm a very spiritual person. I've always wanted to know God, since I was a little kid. I was a kid who was like, let's go to church, people. Love Jesus, you know what I mean? Like, just obsessed with God? Obviously, I fell away because there's so much hypocrisy in the church.

And I was disgusted with that, but and then, but throughout my life, I've always I mean, I was a Hari Krishna at some point, I was into psychic readings, I was almost a Freemason at some point, you know, I mean, because I was so deeply in need to know who is God.

And I listened to Alfetta. And I was just like, No way, no way can this deep truth not be something I have known? How could I have not known this just like how to how could I not have known the Palestinian story? And then from there, it went into Surah Baqarah. And I was just like, I was so blown away. Like literally, later on, I read that, you know, God says that the Christians are gonna weep when they hear this truth. And for sure, I was crying in the car listening to this, I was like, What the heck, you know, and so, it's been a really hectic, you know, emotional roller coaster, I just have to tell you like, my goodness, but because of the truth that I found in the Holy Quran,

which the fact also that Jesus is a prophet in Islam. No one tells you these things. And they can't tell you. I mean, imagine, imagine if you as a Muslim, go to a Christian and say, you know, we actually honor Jesus and we are also looking forward to his return.

You're gonna blow people's minds. They're not going to believe it. And you show them like Nokia, this surah Imran Yeah, you know, pseudo MBR. Here you go check it out. They won't believe it. And, you know, I think when it comes to

interfaith work, this is, I think, the basis upon which it has to be not, let's go to each other's some ceremonies and involve each other with each other's theologies. We don't need to do that. There's no need for that. Let's just talk about the prophets that we all have in common, the eschatology that we all have in common, and our desire for all of us that we share, that we will one day live in a world at peace with itself with the Messiah as the king, and everyone is worshipping God as they ought to in truth in spirit and in truth, which is what Jesus said, Jesus says, You're not going to worship God in the temple anymore, or go here or go there to worship God. You're gonna

worship God, where you are, and the only criteria that you will show them in spirit and truth.

How do you know it's just off the cuff question, but how do you know that you now settled? You see you you've been through all these days.

different expressions of faith looking for God, you believe you found him now? How do you know that this won't work out and you will look further, you know, after some time

because every morning, I read the Holy Quran, and I read the gospel.

And they're saying the same thing.

You see, I've always known that there's an absolute truth in this world of all it's not like, there is no doubt in my mind, I knew there has to be one true story, only one, there can be multiple versions of the Absolute Truth. And reading the Holy Quran and the gospel together, it just, it brings home the fact that there is one God. And he's the same God, by the way, who inspired the African people to develop the philosophies of Ubuntu and the philosophies of Matt. Right? Where it's all about this one Creator, we're all created by him.

He is a God of justice, truth, love, fairness, equality, honesty,

and charity and generosity and peace.

So across the world,

everyone, the Native Americans, same thing, the aboriginals of Australia, the sand people here, cross the world, across the world, all cultures that have lived in peace, have lived in peace on these principles that you find in the gospel and in the Holy Quran.

And, and in the Torah, you know, so

I don't see how I've been around the block spiritually, and I don't see how I can find a higher truth and what I'm reading now, it's never gonna happen. I just thought that I just thought that asked you the question. So, because somebody else is going to be listening to you and thinking like, you know, you know, we've got to take it seriously, because she's, she's obviously changing your mind all the time. I've seen this many times before. And I know that that's never gonna happen. But I thought, you know, let's hear it from you. Essentially, you know, I've had some of the questions that they had for you. And you've actually answered them already. So that is quite fantastic.

Oh, okay. Yeah.

Yeah, go for

now, I was going to ask you about your your own personal journey, and how Palestine has enlightened you, in your personal life and journey. But you've already kind of revealed that you you've actually been moved by the Quran itself, you've been moved by the message of Islam, I was going to ask you about how significant is religion in the liberation struggle for Palestine, but even just your life's journey, thus far has as demonstrated that for us, so I don't know if you'd like to comment on that, you know, any further. But you you are living testimony to how important the religion actually is in this liberation struggle.

It is so important. And you know, one of the things that pains me is how people are trying to secularize this moment, you know, and I always say, I say, I say, Guys, let us not lose focus here. You know, someone actually wrote an article about how this iCj trial is a fitna. You know, it's something which will divert us from the path of God consciousness, because it's going to take our concentration away from God being the one who's going to give victory to the Palestinians, to saying that through manmade channels, we're going to get victory for the Palestinian people. And you know, I said, you know, what, guys? I don't agree completely with everything this article says, because I

do believe there is definitely merit in what the South African government is doing is doing at the ICJ definitely. And everyone should be able to express their love for the Palestinians in whatever way. But as people who believe in God, yes, we have to be focused on who is actually in charge here. And, you know, I also pointed out that do not discredit the Islamic resistance

in what they've achieved by secularizing. This because it was only through their faith in God that they were able to achieve what they've achieved. It's 100 days on, people are still holding fast, they still resilient, they still resisting they still fighting. That was not going to happen if this was just a secular ideology. It wasn't and on top of that, it was not going to

be fought against so severely if it was just a secular ideology, because look at the Palestinian Authority. They're secular. No one really has a problem with him. But ask anyone about Hamas. Yo, they want to condemn Hamas, Do you condemn? You know, and everyone wants to like keep a distance from Hamas. You

under this people who support Palestine, yeah, people, because of the stigma of the Western media around, people don't quite understand that, you know, in other countries, you should be reluctant to express support for Hamas because they are designated a terrorist organization just like be Mk was a terrorist organization. But my dear brother and sister, we are not in the USA and the UK, you fought for this freedom to not be designated as a terrorist, you fought for the resistance of the resistance movement of South Africa. So now you have that liberty to actually express your support fully for these resistance fighters. And I think that that's such an important point. And I've

actually, you know, I appreciate that you just mentioned this, we haven't discussed this before. But I practically agree with you, 100%, in this regard, at one stage while you were introducing this point, I was thinking, Oh, my gosh, is she going to also, you know, sort of just brush aside the the ICJ case, because I've seen that article and similar expressions as well. And I appreciate the perspective, I do understand that for some people, it's 100% reliance on God and God alone, and the resistance and that we should, you know, own this this particular struggle. But Islam is the religion of balance. And in this regard, I believe the balanced approach is that, look, we believe,

we believe in God, we believe that it is our faith, and the faith of the Palestinians that got them where they are now, and that will continue to, to bring them out of, of this horrific genocide and occupation. And we believe that if we, if we turn our attention away from God, that we we've already lost the battle. That's it. We need to take every every legal means at our disposal, and fight fire with fire. Or let me rather say, win them at their own game, which is exactly what what's happening at the ICJ. And while that is taking place. You're in Cape Town, as soon as we heard that was taking place, we've had religious gatherings, we've had pre gatherings we've had gatherings of vicar of

Quran of, you know, keyamo Lay or pray at night, because we appealing to God, oh, God, perhaps through this, you know, and I gave a sermon on Friday saying that there are negative perspectives in this regard, you know, people saying that, what's the point? They're not going to listen, they don't care, medica will veto and so on and so forth. Then they are the overly optimistic expressions like this is it we've won? Who knows that Africa? Yeah, we the world champions, we got them. They're going to be they're going to be discredited because of the ruling that it is a genocide and this whole thing will in seriously people come on this is this is the most arrogant regime ever. Do you

think Satan is going to bow down to Adam, just because he's in the presence of God? No. arrogance will prevent him from bowing down to Adam, because it's arrogance, even though he's in the presence of God. So we need to remember that. I said, from my perspective, Islam wants us to be cautiously optimistic. So we should be optimistic about the fact that this is a solid attempt. Right? And this is where my discussion of David and Goliath actually came from. I said, this is David, throwing a stone or casting a stone at Goliath. Do you think David believed at the time of casting or anyone around him? Do you think they believe that this stone was going to bring down that giant? No, it's

absurd. Do you think that they even gave up hope and said, Well, let's not throw the stone? Or do you think somebody else is no throw the stone we're going to win based on the stone, they must have been in a state of, you know, cautiously optimistic. And what was his duty at that time, his duty was throw the stone, God will decide what the stone does. God will decide whether this stone even reaches Goliath in the first place. God will decide based on the sincerity of your heart, and the efforts that you put forward in the outcome of what's going to transpire. But your duty here, David, is to throw the stone and I believe this is what South Africa is doing. So I get this from Islam.

This is what Islam teaches us. Take the means. Tie your camel, but bless you trusting God.

Yes, I mean, I totally agree. And I think I'm part of this like study group. We're studying a book about

social justice in Islam. Right. So you know, I'm very much happy because I have access to Islam, and I'm a Christian as well. I just, you know, I feel so blessed, you know, even like, I'm like, I'll showing someone like, you know, the second to last verse and Surah Imran talks about people like me, you know, here we are, we're Christians. And yet we are a

accepting this, the Quran live, we're accepting it as truth, you know. And so when I hear, you know, exegesis, like you will, I'm always very appreciative because just like that book on Social Justice points out, you know, Islam is very practical. And thing is, Abraham practiced Islam, you know. So it's not like it started with the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, it started way long time ago. And it's actually the natural condition of a human being, you know. And so indeed, the practical efforts that we make, they are required of us, because our whole lives are supposed to be worshipping God. And this is what's also amazing about Ubuntu, the Ubuntu philosophy, you know, is

it's, it's a lifestyle of submission to the Creator, saying, like, look, nothing that we do, can undermine the sanctity of the life of the creation of the Creator. Nothing that we do can undermine our respect for the Creator. You know, so, I think definitely, you know, and Jesus said, You know, he said, they, he asked the rabbi's who are opposing him, he said, two men.

Come to the Father to the first one, he says, go do the will of God. And though he says, No, I won't do it. But then he goes, and does it. And the second one, says, I will do it, but I bet he doesn't do it. So then Jesus asks them, so who actually did the will of God?

You know, I still need to get used to saying peace be upon him, because I think it's so beautiful how you say that about the prophets, you know, peace be upon him. So

he says, who actually did the will of God? And he said, he's the one who said he isn't going to do it, but goes and does it. And so it doesn't matter whether a person has some sort of overt religiosity or a label as a religious person, but how they live their life, if they're living their life in pursuit of justice and love and peace, then they're actually doing the will of God. You know, and so that's how we can also look at the ICD J cases. These people are putting their lives on the line here, actually, because we know how evil the Zionists are, okay, and these imperious to stand for the Palestinians to stand up for the Palestinians. Because even if the case is thrown out,

you know, the fact that there were people who said, we're going to put time and efforts to create this case, to support our brothers and sisters in Palestine against this brutality of this very, very powerful entity with these very, very powerful friends. Yeah, it's, it's it's a very moving gesture of friendship and solidarity. And so, you know, our souls were, you know, have you been as proud to be South African?

You know, I was interviewed the other day on Salem media. And I said, you know, I feel like we are reconnecting with Nelson Mandela. Through this, you know, it's like the second touchstone, those words of that, that he said, our freedom is incomplete or the freedom of the Palestinians. Those words are alive right now, you know, for us and South Africans and our foreign policy based on who is alive right now. The global south is being led by Nelson Mandela once again. And it's a very beautiful moment. Yes, I'm very proud. We're very touched, you know, and, but I still maintain, let's not keep our eye take our eye off the ball. You know, we're fighting like you say, Goliath,

what was Goliath? He was a pagan blaspheming against the one true God.

That that was the reason why he was fighting David and the Israelites, not because they wanted to have there was a territorial dispute. No, this was a spiritual battle. And this is also a spiritual battle, like we in dealing with people here, who have no problem taking the scriptures of the Holy God, and twisting them to justify genocide. I mean, the Holy Quran says there is no and more an injured unjust than the one who invents a lie upon Allah. And so these people are doing exactly that, and they must be opposed.

I would like to thank you for your time and for your struggle, your activism, I pray that God guides you further, and that you become a voice for the oppressed of the world, and that he uses you for that which is the most pleasing to Him. And He gifts you with a life of blessings and guidance, and that you become an inspiration for more and more people to take up this struggle and to become active in the path of justice and for justice, and your that you become the voice of the voiceless, and that you become strong in the struggle. And I look forward to standing side by side with you in the liberation for Palestine and then the next please people and the next please people until we

leave this earth having fought for our entire lives for justice.

Until we meet one another in the kingdom of heaven, we through justice will actually prevail. Thank you very much. Insha Allah and you know, thank you for this opportunity. I always enjoy speaking. I'm a teacher by training and by nature. So I'm so grateful and blessed when I can speak, you know, and I just want to say, Please, can we also discuss

eschatology? You know, one of the things that you wanted to you had said that was on your list was, how do Muslims approach Christians on the issue of Palestine? Yeah, the door is eschatology. It's really going to be awesome. And, you know, for Christians to know that you are also waiting for the return of the Messiah. That's an amazing thing that people don't know. And it will was 99 ism. So let's, let's have another discussion on that one. Awesome. Thank you. Great. Thanks so much. Thank you. You too. Thank you. Thank you so much.