Channel: Haitham al-Haddad
Sh Haitham & Dr Qasim
Assalamu alaikum guys, it's me, I'm back. No need for that guy anymore. We got a really important and a special episode of The Assam tournament see unscripted podcast for you today. And I always say that about every episode and every episode is special. But today, you know, we know everyone's looking at their news feeds and is dominated by the Coronavirus and this global pandemic now. So we've got two experts in today's episode
that are experts in probably two of the most important things that you and me need to be talking about. And that is, number one, we've got a big scholar, humbler Islamic jurists giving photos for people on a daily basis, you know how to go about their lives during this pandemic? And number two, we've got a scientist who happens to be at the forefront of developing a vaccine for this new Coronavirus. So we talked about loads of good stuff in this episode, we talked about the government's response, you know, how it has been, what it's turning towards, we're talking about what machines can do and what it can do. And if you're most committee member, pay close attention
and we also talk about what you and me You and I every day Muslims can do for our bit against this virus. So grab a drink, grab a snack, if you're in self quarantine, you know, make sure your seats comfortable and enjoy the show.
Assalamu alaikum everyone and welcome back to this is Tom 21 c unscripted podcast while a lot has happened since since I hosted one of these you know, I went to Pakistan for wedding. There's a global pandemic of Coronavirus and Sonic the Hedgehog has his own movie now.
But I think we're gonna focus on the second one. So that's big news as dominating everyone's news feeds and stuff. As you can see, we're in this makeshift bunker kindly provided to us by the good old people at
what's it called again? Quaker street coffee in bubble tea. I have my bubble tea here. Very nice, Mashallah. And in order to discuss the recent kind of pandemic that everyone everyone is aware of, and, you know, spreading information about I thought, let's get to experts in their respective fields. hamdulillah we're able to get Felicia Haytham and her dad. Well known chef and regular guests on his podcast from Islamic Council of Europe and I want to come to lush if it comes to live or a cat How are you?
So sure controller is going to be he's been talking about the Coronavirus and we're going to be putting some Charlotte tough questions for him. And we've got we've been collating the mother of all FAQs for Coronavirus, Tennessee so we'll have some inshallah frequently asked questions from your your cells from all the way across the social media platforms, YouTube and Facebook and all that lead to some very pressing questions that people have had. So
be prepared for those we haven't told him beforehand. And last but not least, we have Dr. Qasim Rafiq, he's a
someone who we haven't seen in a long time but Mashallah he is a assistant professor in UCL correct me if I'm wrong here, Associate Professor so your professor classroom The fact is that you're not yet still Associate Professor, that somewhere in between, oh, Ninja shell is the inshallah proof costumer fig is at UCL. And you're,
you're obviously you're, you know, interested in the science behind this latest pandemic anyway, but you have another interest in this case, as well. And that is, you're helping, I think,
to find the vaccine or to create a vaccine to get it
to the level that we we need so it's good and Hello, we have in the Muslim community, many people, you know, batting for us hamdulillah not just a Muslim, but you know, humanity in general in sha Allah, May Allah give you tofield can, you know, pushing for our understanding our ability to protect ourselves from the source now when it comes, like Muslim of
the earlier a very interesting, headlined article today saying that China bought us time when the West has squandered it as a new york post? What do you think about that? Are you aware of this, this criticism that governments have been receiving? When you say we who do you mean by way, do you mean in the UK? Would you mean, UK is one of them? Yeah. So what do you think? How do you think the response has been because the back with a difficult question.
I think it's when you look at the UK government's response, and I have to be measured in my comments here, but it's very different to what the rest of the world is doing. And that's not just what they're doing in the Far East but globally, you know, the states have just you know, as of today, New York has sharp schools. Los Angeles has has has implemented strict
measurements and so on. So the UK is very much a global outlier. I can't think of any other country, by the way, I just spoke to Sheffield.
And in Dallas, I said, Oh, sorry, well, what's the time here? He said, nine o'clock. I spoke to him maybe two, three hours ago. And they said, Sorry, Am I disturbing you? Maybe you're going to accuse, he was laughing? And he said, No, there is no, they shocked everything he does. And it's funny, I've just come back from work. So so. So the UK is still promoting this concept that we're very much open. it's business as usual. But, you know, I've just come back from chairing a safety committee meeting within the department that I work in, in Biochemical Engineering. And, you know, UCL is remaining open as it stands, that's, that's the official line. But there as of today, there's no
more teaching. So there's no more face to face teaching. All teaching is to be delivered online. There's to be no exams, which is unprecedented to have no, you know, end of year exams is unprecedented. So we're now discussing about alternative forms of assessment for students. And that just I think, gives an indication as to the serious nature of, of what we're really facing. And as I was mentioning earlier, the UK is very much an outlier in compared in comparison to the national also the global response to a country that took the same measures the UK took not nowhere near as Holland, Holland, Holland have implemented now, strict policies of closures and so on. So the UK is
very much the only country I mean, even our neighbors in the Republic of Ireland, who share a border with the UK have adopted a closure policy. So the UK is very much an outlier. It's questionable as to why.
And there's hope in Sharla, for all our sakes that the Chief Scientific Chief Scientific Officer and the Chief Medical Officer made the right decision, but I think there's many who are questioning the decision. Yeah. Sure. You mentioned that you recorded a few videos about this, this outbreak and the pandemic Coronavirus. Yeah.
What was your message to the Muslims when news of this broker? And has that message changed at all? Because, you know, I mean, even a few weeks or even the kind of infectious disease expert and Dr. Oz him Dr. Imran Qureshi. Oh, sorry. Even a few weeks ago, we did a podcast with him. And he was like, you know, no need to panic, Everyone calm down. And I was kind of challenging. I was thinking, is this key? Is he doing this? Because he's supposed to say that, but deep down, you know, this, you know,
actually, I was speaking to Dr. Ramadan yesterday, yesterday, because, you know, he is helping MCP and formulating or coming up with certain guidelines or mosques, etc. And to be honest with you, I was I was about to say to him that, Oh, am I wrong? I'm not seeing you panicking.
Yeah, seriously. And he was calm, he was very mature in his approach. Not unlike so many other doctors, because in the last few days, I've been speaking with doctors from right to left everyone, even even doctors are abroad. Okay. And, again, some of you know, some of the doctors were asking about shaving the beat. Yeah, that's why they were calling because of the mask fitting or something. This is one thing and because of the they said that the hair, okay, might catch the virus, okay, is likely to catch the virus anyway. So some people have criticized them the Muslim community's response, the Muslim leaders response, we had a kind of some some in the news today, the Muslim kind
of newspace, the head of Islamic Human Rights Commission saying, you know, criticizing Muslim leadership saying, you know, mosque should have been closed by now on this type of stuff. So there is that kind of, okay. Just they are closing, or sorry, they are criticizing the Muslim community just because of this, just Muslim. mosques did not close. I don't know the details of this person. Okay, so maybe maybe some people are exaggerating. And I don't want all of the discussion to be surrounded or centered on this issue of closing down the mess. I think there are so many other things that we need to take
measures that we need to take there. There is a lot to be done before we just focus on this. But you know,
I want Muslims to be smart enough not to, to accept the criticism and to say that yes, because we did not close down the mosques. It means that we didn't do anything. Look, any really doctor, cousin, brother, cousin, who's a very close person to my heart, may Allah Allah Allah reward him. A few days ago. I was
In Saudi Arabia, and I received a call from Dr. Horace Mann. Yeah, I'm a man who is the top doctor in cancer. And so they gave and he told me that Dr. Carson was invited to attend the conference in Saudi Arabia.
I didn't know that he might not like this. But he said, even the director of the university, the director of the hospital, which is the top Hospital in Saudi Arabia,
King Faisal hospitals, the hospital in Riyadh, the director, he asked for a private meeting with concept. Yeah, constant can confirm this, I confirm this actually with him before I can confirm that Heathrow was empty when I came back.
And they offered I am sure, they wanted to offer him a job, but he preferred to come to the UK to his country, and he just told me that somebody that is not interested in doing a job and he said, It is not about money, although they pay a lot of money. And he is working humbly to find a vaccination for this for their virus. And then so we are actually helping the community we are helping this society. Yeah. And I myself, I am now studying this issue of pollute. Yeah. Okay, this or not, and I will issue a statement to NASA or no to NASA, which is
in congregational prayer, that Allah Allah, Allah protects, protects, who protects Muslims, and the country as a whole. So I am studying gate now and preparing to to issue a statement about this to encourage masajid. Yeah, the masajid that are still open and functioning, to do cornuta naskila, to help this country and even to help even other countries. And I think I think there's a wider issue here, which is, I think it's slightly disingenuous to request or suggest that Muslim closed msgid and their places of worship, when we're still being encouraged by the UK government, to send our children to schools, yeah, to, you know, carry on business as normal, unless you have symptoms, and
then you're requested to self isolate. So to then naturally impose a closure of massage is one thing. But also, I would argue that massage would have taken steps, many massages have I mean, they've, they've, they've implemented certain deep cleaning policies they've implemented in
all of those, I want to get to what we can do practically to protect ourselves includes the million medical, hygiene, that kind of stuff, measures for machines includes but not includes the US. And one of the FAQs is you know, I want something some kind of cut and dry from the sun that I can, you know, people are asking, just give me one to add, I can keep repeating, for example, as soon because, you know, if they have
some time they want to do and, you know, there's many different tiles. And so I want to get to that, but first, I'm trying to gauge the kind of mental or emotional state that we're trying to push. And I have this myth. Personally, I believe, I have a theory, right, whatever the, you know, the end conclusions are that we're going to tell the community, or that we, that you might be, as well as advising my students on and so forth. I think that people need a discourse of one of two types, right? either keep calm and carry on discourse, or, oh, my God, this is a serious thing, kind of discourse, right? I garlis of what your measures are, the truth is somewhere in between, because it
always is, and you have you have because there is it would be irresponsible of the government and of leaders generally of any background, any faith to suggest the world is coming to when it's Doomsday and everyone should fend for themselves. We've seen some of the effects of that in shops, and, and so on so forth. In terms of
panic, we don't have to do that good. But at the same time, this is a serious issue. One of the one of the major concerns I have and i've i've been quite firm with this is the number of WhatsApp messages I've received, which have promoted either misinformation,
scientifically irrelevant information. And sound support is incredible. And so I, as of today, I made it and I've contacted people and said, stop sending these messages unless they've been checked and confirmed by a biologist or an immunologist, or clinician who is well known in the field. And you're always going to have a clinician of some sort, who is going to have an outlying perspective as well. You know, be very, very careful in the information passing on Have you seen a whole range of things so people suggesting that
certain symptoms are explicitly associated with COVID-19. And other symptoms or not when actually, we've seen patients who have been presented who have presented with a whole range of kind of amongst those symptoms that they have identified. So someone reading that might say, Well, I don't have that symptom, therefore, I don't have COVID-19. And therefore, I'm not going to get myself checked or tests or whatever it might be. So I think we have to be very careful in these if these are serious matters. And these are matters in some instances, for certain communities and for certain individuals of life and death. But you know, you know, in other I think one of the problems is the
people with an expertise, either, you know, a scientist or even a, you know, a scholar, Islamic scholar. I think it sounds a bit, maybe controversial, but I think you're a bit too nuanced. Right? And actually, you're going to be like, Oh, it's not too much this not that, but you know, have given a balanced answer. The problem is, I think most people the way we think, is in hyperbole. If people hear like a nuanced kind of measured message that says in that gives all the facts clearly. And people are going to naturally themselves fall into one of two discourses, one of one is, let's say, a mustard, for example, Institute some policies and say, okay, until the over 70s, don't come make
goodwill at home, bring it on premise, for example, right. But the problem is in the way that which discourse, is that being communicated? And is it being communicated in Keep calm carry on discourse is a community communicated in alarm bells, discourse, right? Because like Mahmoud was saying, for example, that brother over there wearing the mask.
My mother was saying, in the masjid, today, in Islam, for example, it was full of elderly people, it was full of people who know maybe the woods still open, well, they might have had the best, you know, actual measures that they communicated, but because people maybe we either respond to carry on is nothing to worry about and do maybe do a bit of thing or, you know, this is very, not panic, but this is very, very, very serious right. Now, some people are the only people giving that message other people are spreading fake news and misinformation, I think people with, you know, who knows the kind of medical guidance, who know, you know, how serious a threat This is, potentially, they
need to be equally hyperbolic in you know,
my gogans every you know, strand of extreme your body but it's an issue of communication because if people you give them the same guidelines, and you try and drum this into them that look don't take this lightly, then they will be more likely to
follow those guidance. If I may say there are two things here, okay. That we need to bear in mind. The first one is is providing information without confirming the authenticity of this information. Yeah. This is even from a shareit prospective exams is prohibited and the province of Elias alumna and Peter
Peter Peter justice spreading information it was said it was said it was said without confirming it, and I wanted to know Hannah says well, Amina Amina will have he will be able to do hula monkey what was really well or do hula hula hula hula Deena
is describing one of the qualities of the hypocrites that whenever they hear anything, yeah, that causes especially fear or that might attract some attention and that will be they will spread it and had in today you refer it to the Prophet sallallahu Sallam and to the people of knowledge people of knowledge. So do
people have authority people have medical authority? Yes, yes. Sometimes Yeah. People who are either the political leaders or the scholars or the people in charge of a matter including the the media conductors, etc, that would be even better for them under modula and also says in the well known verse that we are all aware of, yeah, you under the nominal India confession whenever In fact, you know, if a sinner who is known for okay not being careful about what he is producing and what how he conducts himself, then cetera you know,
yeah, for the benefit a bit to make sure that this information is is correct, because really spreading information, especially spreading information that lead to fear.
Yeah, and panic. Yeah. Is a very panic is also a viral Yeah. Now. Now, if I may say, Sorry, if I may say the second point I want to mention. I remember one brother, he was telling me and you're smiling.
I said, What do you want me to do? You want me to just take
keep crying out for
brothers and sisters. We need to understand that being in a state of origin Yeah. of grief and sadness, this is not an Islamic and too much worry. Yeah, is not Islamic actually worry might not be Islamic from different angles, okay? And there is a difference between taking precautions and being greedy and just being what, what, for example, look in the Quran when I boubakeur was with the Prophet sallallahu senemo Baba Casa de it may Allah Allah Allah be pleased with him was with Abu Bakr with the Prophet sallallahu Sallam and then they were migrating and they were hiding in the cave Hara and the missionaries were
searching for them and they were chasing them. And they were next to the cave. Yes, what did he say? The the Protoss alum, what did he say to abubaker?
Don't be saddened because Allah is with us. In the poor, Russia, isn't that a cause? They?
Yeah, so many verses in the Quran that have forgotten.
This is once you've taken the means, right? So the prophets of Salaam they meticulously
there's even a lot of clinical data which suggests that those who are more optimistic and take a more positive outlook on life on their condition if it's a difficult situation have better outcomes. So I think this this is I think goes without saying that we don't want to and this applies to Muslims and and to the wider community. We don't want to create a nation of warriors and people are fearful and grief stricken. But at the same time it doesn't mean that we don't take the matter seriously. Yes, fewer warriors more warriors. See the Muslim community to be a source and especially the massage it First of all, it comes down from the top to bottom, the leaders of the Muslim
community, they should be strong, they should be optimistic, they should. They should show that they have full power call on Allah. Allah Allah. Yeah. And full trust in Allah. Allah, Allah, Allah, Allah, Allah says, Allah Allah if you encounter more meaning, and this person that was prohibited in the Quran in so many verses, yeah, they say that, you know, every many mental health disorders stem from an inappropriate relationship with fear, yes, the fear was going to happen exactly over the past. Exactly. Kind of obsessive. So that the leaders first the leaders of the Muslim community should demonstrate this. So, this is an example of how to tailor our discourse, whatever the advice
is, we have to imbue it with tawakkol and confidence and so forth, yes, and not showing panicking. So, as I said, the Muslim community, the leaders and then the masajid and then the community need also brothers and sisters, when they go to you know, shops when they go to supermarkets, Muslim with big beards and they are stacking 10 bags of rice in front of everyone, if you as a Muslim you are behaving like this. Yeah. Then what about to those non Muslims who do not have Allah in their life they do not have torkel on Allah, Allah Allah, you are the one who knows that while Amana masaba Colonia colocado, woman after let me loose, evoke, that whatever happens to you it would not have
missed you would never have missed you would not have happened to you, as the Prophet sallallahu Sallam said to even at best, and as a Latino Allah says Allah, Allah Subhana Allah, Allah, Allah Allah, nothing will happen to us except what Allah what you're saying about buying more than buying colors, these colors, were talking about hoarding, you know, especially food and under these, these necessarily material and and provision they were talking about prohibited negative about it. Okay, negative about it. And the other thing is, yes, we say yes, maybe be ready. And all and unfortunately, many brothers and sisters use this ID token. Yes, tie your come in and just move on.
You're trying to come in, you're just actually killing you're coming.
Yeah, when you buy 10 bags of rice, or 10 bottles of milk, that does a number of issues as well the impact it has on other people in terms of being able to get access to necessities. I have many colleagues at work who are unable, who they may be single, or as a couple, whatever it might be. They don't bulk buy. So they've gone to the shops recently to buy food and there's nothing available particularly
In London, it seems to, and that hysteria just feeds in and it becomes we're gonna, I'm sure we're gonna discuss herd immunity bit later. But it's a herd mentality. If you see, you know, a few people doing the same thing, then everyone rushes in, and it creates unnecessary fear. Yeah. So my point again, brothers and sisters, we should be a source of safety, security, peace, and wherever we are, people should feel, let me send this message clearly, people should feel secure when they see Muslims. I know one brother, he has sent his thought to the whatsapp group of his local community. He sent them letters to the kind of letterboxes saying, you know, if anybody's over 70, or whatever,
you need some help, you know, getting groceries or whatever, excellent, I wasn't going to go there, I suggest, let us take this opportunity. And, you know, go one step further. Think and live out of the box, not just think out of the box, think and live out of the box. And instead of just being in the, in the back front, and just defending and thinking of ourselves and how to protect ourselves. I suggest brothers and sisters, if you can form certain groups. Yeah. And look after the people around you. Okay, you go to your neighbors, maybe there are some elders who are afraid to come out and go, especially for this brother, he found 170 Plus, man, he said he was told to self isolate for four
months, yes, if he hadn't spoken to him or extended, exactly, he might die. Again,
please, brothers, let us maybe build the form some organization or I don't know, any kind of setup, where we go to other neighbors and tell them, Do you need anything? Shall we buy anything for you, etc, let us show how Muslims can really benefit this society in times of crisis like this. And
that's what I'm saying, though, we have to be careful what, what messages that were maybe non verbally getting across x. And if we're saying if we talk, if we introduce the whole topic with other and you know, don't worry too much about what happened and have to work on and so forth. And we don't highlight these practical things that you should live with a time of crisis, you just say a time of crisis, then people will kind of ignore the crisis part. And this thing, okay, you know, just carry on as normal. Yeah, that's why, you know, some kids, they've had a very harsh response, or kind of, they've completely closed or they've they've, you know, said, No, no one outside 10
minutes before after slot, for example. So that's a very heavy handed Devonian, some might say, authoritarian move, but it gets the message. And sometimes I'm not going to comment on that specifically, but sometimes you need the gravitas. And, and, and the visual, the visual, and this is why now as of today, the UK Government, I'm Boris Johnson has has, has has made it clear that they will now make daily addresses to bring that sense of seriousness and urgency. Yeah, which perhaps has been lacking over the last week or so from the government, you know, with, you know, information coming out in articles behind paywalls in the Telegraph, with, with certain reporters being briefed,
rather than, you know, public dissemination, that is now changing. And, and that's, I think, you know, from from a national perspective, highlighting, you know, the change in strategy and philosophy of the government, but also, I think, even as, as Muslim leaders, and so on and so forth, there is a need now to realize that there is going to be a change in, in the policy in the approach that's needed, because we're seeing the evolution before isn't the evolving nature of the situation, and the evolving nature of the virus itself. You know, we're seeing the impact, it's having not just you know, globally, but even within our own communities now. So, this, this is something now that we
need to take a seriously but be I think, you know, having, you know, a focus of, you know, solution oriented approach as well you know, being focused on how can we how can we try and develop solutions, and even if one does become positive with it test positive for COVID-19 you know, what is the approach, you know, what is what is the mechanism to to, you know, self isolate and, and how do you try and improve and get better and so on so forth. What is the best steps in that situation? Today? Boris Johnson, they're doing the announcer doing regular Cobra meetings. html Cobra, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
This is this is our Cobra meeting. But I want to ask you one thing, I want to just get a brief snapshot from you in your in your, from your perspective, before we go into some of the practical stuff. What has been the strategy hitherto
of the government, and what is it changing towards just to because again, there's lots of fake news. And so I think to be clear, the UK, as I mentioned at the beginning is is very much an outlier in its approach. They've adopted what they call and they've tried to distance themselves from this recently with an article by Matt Hancock, the health minister, but very much a case of herd immunity that we carry on as business as normal. Most of the population in the UK will get this disease and this virus at some point, and for most people, it will be relatively mild, they should recover, inshallah, and then that will provide a sense of immunity, and that concept of herd immunity, and I
listened to him Ron Qureshi, his podcast on the way over here this morning, you know, he touched on herd immunity, the idea being that if you have a certain population or percentage of the population immunized, and it stops, the the virus spreading, and eventually it will get to a point where it doesn't find a new uninfected host. And therefore, it dies out sort of those without immunity, they're protected from it. This approach is very different from the rest of the world, the rest of the world, being led primarily now by China, but also by the likes of Singapore, Taiwan. And Hong Kong has been to immediately self quarantine and anti impose closures, which can be difficult for
people. But I think more importantly, what they've done, which is very important is to ensure appropriate tracking and traceability of people who have contracted the tested positive, their immediate family, people that they've been in contact with, and start to try and limit those the exposure of people to the disease that sell faster, hasn't it? Because we Yes, yes or no, I mean, I think we're still at the phase where Wu Han was, you know, in January, when the Chinese government was still reluctant to to deal with this in a in a in a significant way. But the Chinese then suddenly changed, tactics, you know, overnight, and now they got to the point where they now have no
more than 10 or 20 cases, new cases a day, whereas in the UK, we're just on the exponential rise. So the issue we have is that, yes, for most people, they will recover, inshallah, you know, we assume they will. But most people thus far that have contracted the disease have made a recovery. But there's a number of questions. Firstly, this herd immunity, there is no data that suggests that we will have long term immunity, there's already been suggestion and some and some data to suggest individuals in Japan have been reinfected by by the disease. So the idea of long term immunity is nowhere near proven. It's a very risky strategy. So none of cross your fingers and hope. Absolutely.
And to some extent, that it is a very difficult decision, because on the flip side, the if the government does close, you know, schools, businesses, and everything changes, the impact, not just on the economy, and our most people have commented and said, Well, you know, they don't have its wealth before health, there is maybe some truth to that. But the other aspect of it is, is that people's livelihoods, and and and their own well being will be affected by this. And so therefore, it is a big decision to make, but it's now a decision that the UK in isolation is making and the rest of the world is no, we're gonna close. So for me, it's a very high rate unintended.
it wasn't like I like they picked up on that. But but it is a very, it's a unique and a high risk strategy. And we'll see we'll see if it pays off. is it changing, though? You alluded to the fact that there's been an evolution Yeah, so So there has now been since they moved away from the term herd immunity now, so the Matt Hancock, despite the the Chief Scientific Officer on Friday, talking extensively about herd immunity. In an article in The Telegraph on Sunday, the health minister said we're not pursuing herd immunity, effectively, they are in reality, the the policy is changing. However, we are seeing some change. And they kind of alluded to that they would change based on
data, which we hope is the case. So one of the changes we are seeing is now they announced that over 70s should self isolate. The other issue that they've kind of started addressing and we're seeing this in reality is schools and our contingency planning, foreclosures, universities, schools and other public organizations are contingency planning. And there is a likelihood now that, you know, people are going to be working remotely, which they probably should have done, as much of the world has done a couple of weeks ago. So sure, I mean, as as a as a Mufti, as a caddy. It's very much in your job, kind of your daily stuff to look at the anticipated consequences of something you always
say, you know, for example, when you're talking about voting, you know, a lot of people just look at an isolation thing. How can you vote for someone who does XYZ, but you're saying no. And what the 50 is telling you is to look at the difference between two or whatever the choices are to look at Trump's it took too long to have to zoom out, to look at it in a macro way to look at context to look at different aspects before you give a judgement regarding a
Yeah, isolated incident. So when you hear Dr. Rafiq talking about this kind of stuff. So
I have one question for Kasim. And then I kind of follow on to this because I was thinking when it comes to what can we do, right? Because the government guidance is going to be kind of averaged across the general muscle of everyone for the whole society. So they propose it proportionally, we'd hope that they're looking at the general muscle. But we have to look also at the muscle heart of our particular community, right, because we're not the exact average person we mentioned, for example, a lot of people mentioned that Muslims have higher tendency towards diabetes and hypertension, these types of things.
So we have, and also we have very different social habits to the general population. So people are kind of going about their work, they're socializing, they're going into, you know, shopping malls or whatever, they're not coming together, feet, two feet, shoulder to shoulder, you know, unless the, you know, some kind of supreme Cylon or the new iPhone or something, and they're waiting outside overnight. They're not coming shoulder to shoulder in the kind of putting their face on the floor, that kind of stuff. So obviously, we have different habits that we need to Yeah, look forward to. So what I'm what I'm thinking is, I was thinking that if the experts are seeing, there's a credibly
anticipated outcome, where we could, for example, in the peak of this exponential curve, you mentioned
that if that could lead to, you know, NHS services being over overrun and people dying because of that, then Shouldn't we be be a bit more proactive and not just waiting for the government guidance to change? But think, how can we as a Muslim community, regardless of what the government guidelines or guidelines are, how can we try and be proactive? And think about the ways in which we can help stem or flatten out this curve, you know, this whole thing about flattening of the curve? So, john, so can you? Can you describe just very simply for the audience, what this flattening out of the curve means? And secondly, do we have a role to play in that in flattening out of that curve as
Muslim community. So the concept is, is that the UK wants to spread out the number of infections over a longer period of time, so that it has less of a an immediate impact on the health service, we look at the situation in Italy, the vast majority of issues in Italy is the lack of beds, ventilator and ICU equipment, and so on. That is very much the case. In the UK, we suffer from many of the same shortages, and the whole discussion on the NHS is separate, but we suffer from many of the same issues. So it's likely if it continues at this rate, the NHS at some point in the next week, two weeks, who knows, we'll be overrun with cases and they will have to be difficult decisions made. So
the concept of flattening out the peak is that rather than having a sharp peak, you you spread it over a number of months, there's also some some credibility to that and is recognized globally that we want to try and spread this out over the summer when they're when it's not mixed in with other influenza virus and so on. The weather changes, the climate change is absolutely more prepared. But also the the climate has a big impact as well, which is why the second peak is more of a concern. And I personally am worried about Yes, we might get through March, April, May, June, July, August, September, when October, November December hits, that when you look at the Spanish Flu back in
1918 1919, the number of people that died were more than World War One World War two combined, the majority of the deaths came in the second peak, it came when the weather changed. And over the summer, it was quiet. And then over the over the winter. It wasn't that is that is a longer term issue. This is why again, going back to the issue of this isn't something we haven't seen in our lifetime and in our generation. And it will change and it should change people's habits. And it should change. You know, we've been I think we've been very complacent as a global society, the last 50 6070 years because we handle we've had vaccines. So we haven't seen the really the effects of
polio, smallpox, measles, mumps rubella, because we've had vaccines, although they're making a comeback due to kind of vaccine. And that's
a whole nother issue. And yeah, I can speak at length about the issue of anti vaxxers and the lacquer and the pseudoscience behind that but but you look at vaccines of how they have transformed medical, you know, the the the lifespan of people, you know, we're not suffering from public school, smallpox was eradicated polio in most countries globally, is eradicated because of vaccines. And we are now potentially, you know, with this virus going to know that there won't be catastrophic numbers and trauma, but it will it will change the way the world operates. We're seeing the impact now.
supply chains. Yeah, the under real impact the hell direct directly.
It's a public health service destroy, you know, personal, you know, one thing I was thinking about it is that the world is busy and fighting each other. Yeah. Okay. Countries are fighting maybe.
Okay. Regardless the conspiracy behind the violence with China, okay prepared this violence to you know, as a part of hidden biological war against America or America prepared this actually that was in the BBC today BBC News Chinese, one of the Chinese ministers officially accused us this last week, they accused okay, but is this now? Why don't they the leaders of of the world is thinking that there can be an external threat other than
themselves being a threat to each other? Why don't they work together? Yeah. But what I'm talking about is a very utopian kind of image, this will never happen, because there are ideologies, different ideologies for different countries, the interest is different, etc, etc. Agree, but at least to now, I see that maybe they are forced to work together to a certain degree. Yeah, in order to combat this kind of disease. And and this is an app that this is very much happening, it's really been good. I mean, you've heard recently of Chinese doctors have been on the frontline and Wu Han, going to Italy to provide support and advice. But it's across every domain The Chinese
have published. Yeah, absolutely. They, they, they, as soon as by publishing the genome sequence, that's allowed the world to start preparing crazy test diagnostics, reduce the amount of time it takes to get tested, and start thinking about how we develop a vaccine. And this is now a global effort. I mean, the response from scientists, clinicians, academics, I mean, the one thing that's been really pleasing as well as the concept of, so we have an issue of ventilator and shortages and pants for the ventilators are a major issue. There's now second in the UK a call for engineers and engineering companies to manufacture new ventilators. But also for 3d printing parts. I think in
Italy, they're some of the academics printed some of the parts of the ventilators that have saved now lives and they're being used to keep people alive to do 3d printed parts. So it requires global at the same time, we're trying to increase the horizontal line on the on the on the y axis, which is our ability to cope. Absolutely. And we're trying to flatten the curve, okay, put it as much as we can under it. So, but my question was associate and then just what can we do? Yes, in order to flatten that curve, right. What can we do as a Muslim community in particular, is what are as as as somebody who's you know, who knows the science? What are the potential let's not think about the is
it halal or haram have shared for that, what would you do in an absolute kind of vacuum thinking this would certainly lead to reducing Okay, just just before before okay, because this is unscripted. And before we jump into this, you know, I was talking about cooperation between you know, the countries Okay, irrespective of their ideologies and interests and political direction, etc. We Muslims, yeah, we Muslims should have kind of, at least his spiritual leadership
in this and it is very unfortunate that some countries without naming them,
where we thought that they are going to take a spiritual leadership in the Muslim Ummah because of their position, they are not doing that actually, they are okay, going on the opposite is true. Yes. secular America declared a day of prayer today. Yeah. So so that's what this is what I'm saying that we as Muslims now may be independent from governments because our Muslim governments they are like more secular than they are Islamic. Maybe they are and I am working with some data now in order to prepare a few things. Maybe yes. One of them is a letter to the non Muslims. Okay, open letter to non Muslims. The other thing is, we need maybe see, remain like the spiritual lessons that we can
learn. Yeah, but to flatten this, see this disease. Where did it come from?
we Muslims, we believe that it came from Allah, Allah Allah Allah, Allah Allah is the one who controls everything de la jolla.
Allah created everything and a lot Allah Allah told us and out well now Saba, Kumasi betim Fatima Casa de de come and equanimity that Allah gelada sins upon humanity is because of what humanity have earned a word Allah Allah confirmed this in numerous places in the Quran
and the Hadith the makers of a DNS facade and corruption and mischeif etc, prevailed without inland or in C, because of what people have done. The Prophet sallallahu wasallam says Mahara to Fallujah to via Omen in Oviedo be seen in will Umbra, okay, or as what the prophet SAW, Selim said, when a factor factor means any sexual immorality, yeah, any sexual
promiscuity, promiscuity, that was not historically practiced, okay, as the norm of human beings as the normal for human beings up normal kind of sexual relationship. If it prevails in any society, then a larger law will send punishment upon them. So we need to bring this kind of discourse, although this dose discourse is maybe can be attacked, we need to bring it on board, because this is our role. We are the followers of the messengers and the messengers would the messengers normally, woman, they're people from the adapt of Allah delana when they commit sins, show I know, he said, loot, profit load all the profits, they were doing this and we should follow that for today. Are we
doing that? Yes. Are we saying to the whole world, first of all, there is injustice that is taking place in the entire world, not against Muslims, but against Muslims in particular, and against many other people look, the look and the amount of poverty that is spreading all over the world, in Africa, in many other countries, what is our role as Muslims to bring this into light, and that this might be a reason for this kind of punishment, this is one thing. Now this sexual promiscuity is taking place everywhere, damaging that the family unit is taking place everywhere, actually, our organs against Allah, Allah, Allah is taking place everywhere, that they don't want to submit to
Amazon and they are challenging a lot a lot of these types of things rejecting once again, humble, humble human being exactly is such a small, you know, invisible to the naked eye virus, yes, but these powers rejecting his power, denying his existence denying his authority over a human being we should bring all these things into the discussion into the debate and we should show people is not only scientific, okay, there is a spiritual element behind all of this.
I want to get some of the the practical spiritual advice as well as a practical, practical in terms of people to implement in their own lives.
Because sorry, if I may say something, look, when people are talking about measures, do
tawakkol and these so called the spiritual, I don't like to call them spiritual, but I'm using this what they are the last measures to be taken. The first measure they are talking about it or the first measures they are talking about it.
The scientific measures, so Rihanna scientific measures, can they solve the problems? I said to some brothers, even if they solve this current problem,
is there any guarantee that we will not have another bigger problem? Look, Sarris, the colonial old Coronavirus, pigs, swine flu, okay, swine flu,
all of these one after another, and each one is worse than the one before. So where are we going? Where are we heading? Because we are eliminating the power of Elijah Nana from our debate and Muslims. As a Londoner Allah created them as to be and chose them to be illegal of mankind, then they should have they should take lead in this. So you're working with different scholars to produce produce. One of them is to produce maybe an open letter to the globe to to non Muslims in particular, about what is happening in the world. And maybe if there is like, you know, a solution from an Islamic perspective. Yeah, because I like to learn
Allah says it clearly in the Quran. Yes, fellow lay in the bed sooner
had the day when they are touched by our cavities, they go back to Elijah. And then our Delilah condemned, that their reaction was what was the opposite reaction? Their hearts became hardened. Allah, Allah, Allah does not send any kind of punishment, except for people to go back to him to remember the very energy of this life, or to wipe their sins if they are believers. But if they are not believers, Allah, Allah, Allah want to bring them back to him. So that's number one. That's number one. Yes, have that central to our discourse as Muslims. What else can Muslims do in Muslim community in particular do? And let's say in the UK, for example, what can we do the second step
What do you say not to customer? In terms of what can we do? Do we have any impact on flattening the curve or delaying, you know, the spikes on the peaks and so forth, I think we just have to be sensible in our approach, so ensuring that obviously, following appropriate hygiene and so on as as well, as would be expected, but I think each individual looking at their own circumstances, if you live, or I'm contacting and or engage with people who are you know, immunocompromised, or at risk or elderly, then be very wary about your own individual actions. One of the biggest concerns about this particular virus is the and very different to SARS, and MERS. And some of the other viruses we've
seen over the last 20 years is that the pre symptomatic or asymptomatic phase is quite significant. And that appears to be when an individual is shedding a high viral title load. So that's when they are really kind of infectious is in this pre symptomatic phase before they show any absolutely coughing, sneezing, and so on, so forth. So, so being pragmatic and and looking at one's individual circumstances is important. I'm not going to sit here and comment on duclos, massage, and so on so forth. That's why each individual community, maybe the chef and others to discuss, but as an individual, you have to look at your circumstances. And sometimes we get caught up in the emotion
and the theory or, you know, Yeah, fine, we should have to walk around, I agree. And actually, I would say, many of the Muslim scientists and technicians say this outright, that we need to have to work when we are making the art and so on and so forth. It's what's enable us to get this far. But at the same time, we have to be pragmatic as well about the precautions and taking the means to to limit exposure. And, and, and ensuring that we can minimize the impact that we have on others. Because again, you know, the the concept has been from the government, that most people are going to be fine, that may be the case, but those people go back to their homes, maybe visit their parents,
their grandparents. And again, you go back to why this will disproportionately affect the Muslim community, it's for a number of reasons. I there's a number of comorbidities, you know, the Muslim community is quite prone to diabetes, it's obesity, and other you know, emphysema and so on. But also, the other major issues that, like you said, is as our social habits, we tend to visit our parents, visit our grandparents, and so on, so forth. And that's why I don't also like this term, social distancing, we use the term physical distancing, we still need to remain social, we still need to be in touch with people keep in contact with people, even if you can't visit your parents,
you know, speak to them on the phone, FaceTime zone. So physically distancing is a somewhat different concept to social distancing. I'll leave the Islamic advice.
But see, you know, the educational part massage can do a lot in terms of educational part. Yeah. In terms of hygiene, why are we always focusing on just minor technical things? And we don't look at the bigger picture. Yes, the hygiene,
the proper way of, of contacting each other, etc, let alone the spiritual thing. One, one thing that I don't find people are focusing on. But all I think doctors and medical doctors and medical scientists, they confirm that if your immunity system is strong enough, it is very unlikely that you are going to be badly affected by it isn't it appears to be the case, if you're not at risk, you know, under 40. They say if you if you don't have other conditions, it's like it's unlikely you will have long lead. The problem is it isn't the problem isn't you're getting sick yourself. That's not the threat, the threat is to the whole society again, so you're gonna carry it to your neighbor.
Exactly. So I think this is where education programs are necessary. And again, if we are going to use things like WhatsApp to pass information, this is the type of information so make sure that again, every individual has their own situation. You know, so if you live with elderly people, you know, you need to take more precautions now.
You know, someone down the road who who's living by themselves doesn't have to necessarily take those same proportions, you know, I think we have to look out for, you know, the the situation that we're in, I was going to add, I would like to see some of our Muslim scientists to come up with a list of
maybe diet habits or habits in their in, in our diets. So they suggest that, okay, these things may increase or boost your immunity system. So make sure that you take this out and this under conditions.
The key one is between C, vitamin C, it's it's proven to to strengthen the immune system. So
you know, you it's exactly an oranges, but you can you can buy over the counter, chewable vitamin C tablets. So that's something actually when I bought some yesterday that that was something that was well in supply
in the shop. So
you don't think logically depending on the reach of this broadcast, that might, you know, it might still be that in next week's time, there is still a huge amount. But but there is there is a you know, things like vitamin C, certain types of fruits have been proven to boost the immune system, and certain types of foods have shown to have an impact on the immune system. So trying to maintain a healthy diet, trying to maintain an active lifestyle. So people are still saying continuing going outside, running, obviously, maybe don't go to the gym, where you're, you know, sharing the same equipment with hundreds of other people. But going outside, okay, hunting and, and
if I may say just, I saw a video clip of I don't know what that it was prepared by the Chinese government, kind of
physical exercises that can be done. indoors. And not only just physical exercises, just even some games, none. electronic games. Yeah. Yeah. So if not, yeah, no, no, no, even some of them little bit physical, some of them with thinking yeah, with simple with the simple material. So if I strongly suggest if some of our brothers can come up with video clips,
I think that's an excellent idea. And for me, I do something I've implemented in my own household now is, we are likely to have quite a big shutdown. And, you know, at UCL, we're gearing up for shut down, it's still officially open, but we're gearing up, and many other universities and organizations will be, it might be a month, it might be two months, who knows, utilize this time effectively, now have a plan of how you will utilize, you know, we don't spend enough time with our children in many instances in the first place. And you know, just to put them in front of screens, and, you know, people are saying Netflix shares are going to, you know, go exponential in in line
with the virus, but utilize this time effectively, you know, do the reading that you want to do learn the Quran that you want to learn, do the, you know, have a plan, if you go into this and think it's a holiday, it's not a holiday, you know, for many people that will be working remotely, including myself, but there's time that you don't have other papers to write.
They have folks. So that's just one. One thing, I want to ask the audience as well, if you have any ideas, if you're maybe self quarantine or off work, work, working from home, then let us know your ideas in the comments below what you know what good things that you have planned to make use of your time effectively, or any other other any questions or ideas that you have for video series as a good, good suggestion check that you made. And you know what physical activities you can do. Let me just go back to what we were saying about Okay, what can the Muslim What else can the most important you do? Yesterday, you had a think day before so yesterday you posted a video because the video of
yours. You were telling Muslims not to take lightly the whole business of closing mosques, because it's a massive decision. And it should be you know, very, very last resort and it should be in conjunction with Islamic scholars. It makes sense. But one thing that you said what some people commented on was that this shouldn't be a decision that you take on a local level and some people took issue with that they said
you know, with all due respect, they said it's the local communities job to look after the, you know, local congregation. And as professor, Dr. Qasim said, you know, you have to look at your own situation. Maybe you have in your Masjid, very, you know, a high percentage of elderly people. So, you know, what do you say to that? Yeah, that can that can be understood. Yeah. We appreciate this comment. Yeah. Okay. And I have to say that I received a comment from brother. Yeah, but yeah, you want him? A fantastic comment. But what I'm saying is that okay, let us agree on a policy even let us agree on disagree. Yeah. And on a national level, I mean, your main message was don't take this
lightly, which is so let us agree that okay, maybe individual massages
should take this. Yeah,
they should take this decision by themselves. But let us agree on a national possibility, because there are masajid, who close down. And I contacted them and myself, and they said, just a precaution. Well, did you have any kind of, you know, symptoms of someone? No, just a precaution? Yeah. We don't want to go down that line. And imagine or why not even worry about getting rejected? Because I think what Singapore did with their schools is very interesting. So they were one of the first countries to be affected by the Coronavirus outside of China. What they did with their schools is they phase the closure of schools based on the number of cases within the locality. And they've
opened up schools now, based on the fact that there have been no interferences and so on, so forth. So something like that. Earlier, you closed early, you can reopen right if you catch it early. Yeah, that's not the idea. But but it's more than this concept that there will be certain regions which are more highly affected. I don't know if there's been comments that Norfolk still hasn't been affected by the problem in this country is we're not being tested, isn't it? I mean, 111. And that is that is a rather bizarre policy by the UK government as well. One of the key successes of the Chinese Singaporean Hong Kong approach has been they were testing and testing regularly, and making
these widely and freely accessible. That's been one of the major successes, which is what the UK, the US is now finding out the UK has taken a very strange approach, and many are saying that fiddling the numbers, because they don't want to, you know, they don't want to know how many there actually are. And it kind of it's in line with their approach, which is you're going to get it anyway. So what's the point in testing? It's only to get to hospital a few hours, right to depending on the test. It's, it's it's ours. It's gone down from days to hours, depending on the test. But yeah, it is it is a strange policy, because the successes of other countries, and we're not just
about the success of dealing with COVID, because they're the government's response to that has been, yes, it's all well and good. Now they've quarantined but as soon as they open the quarantine, it's going to go back up again. A there's no datas Yes. And again, if you do what Singapore do, and phase opening, you know, it's showing some success. But also it was the same thing we did with SARS, with SARS, which again, was affecting the Far Eastern Region. I'm not saying
that's exactly I mean, 8000 people infected with SARS, and it had a much higher mortality rate of 800 people died, so 10% mortality rate with saws, but they clamped down on it very, very quickly, and they contained it, this has now become a global pandemic. So it's a very different situation now but this point of having phase closures I'm not too long ago, but but but of organizations and institutions and schools seems to be working elsewhere. And going back to the issue of testing numbers. Yeah, even when we talk about the closure of massage, imagine, imagine, massage is the one that massages Allah? Allah Allah He is the symbol of the heat it is the symbol of Islam, it is the
symbol of higher Malaika come to the masjid Allah Allah Allah loves masajid the most the best places on earth massage. Imagine in the whole of the UK there is no Masjid word. And then even internally is raised. There is no congregation, how Allah, Allah, Allah will send his Rama upon us when his name is not glorified in a congregational way in those places, maybe that's again, in theory, an abstract, right? But just like somebody who might say, yo, yo, if you say for example, if you say for example, when you when you talk about, you know, voting, for example, that it sounds similar to somebody saying, how can you vote for someone who is doing this and doing that? But you're saying
no, no, I'm voting for the difference between this and something else. So for example, in Kuwait in Turkey now, they say they have some suspended drama, they're suspended. Yeah, but congregational prayers. Okay. See, I don't know about k but even there is a lot of criticism, I guess, you know, Kuwait and other countries where they they closed down all the masajid and they close down all the Juma etc, etc, maybe at least Okay, they could have minimized the number of mousseline certain massages, but at least the name of Allah Allah Allah should be glorified. So what is your position would you say for example,
Sheikh Mohammed, Hassan will do he can he can broadcast photo yesterday saying that in some cases where another bare minimum can be Yeah, so can the feminine can be
drama Yeah, we can surmise we can minimize the people who are attending. Yeah, we can put certain restrictions for example, those who are healthy those who do not live with with vulnerable people, we can apply we can say that Okay, come with you. Is that something new?
With your own mat? Come with your maybe own disposable
Plastic matte, etc. But to suggest to close the massage it Yeah, say so there is no symbol absolutely close you can
you can reduce it rather than completely closed. I don't have the audacity to, to to approve this year, especially by the way, there is a brother who
there are some books that was that were written by our scholars about Lake Mead, for example the book of cod, but in my own family, etc. And they mentioned that there were a few plagues that took place, one place to place during the term of the prophets are symptoms. And the famous one of them was that took place during the time of pop, another one that took place in the year of 69. Another place and plague that took place in the age of 87. And another one that took place in year 159. Add, I'm talking about injury, and then other plague that took place in 33. What do they mention and 95. And at least in those plays, it was not reported that they close down the massage it completely. In
fact, in the one of the worst plagues that took place in 395. They mentioned that
1000s of the way they described it that that's 1000s of people were dying in I think it was in in Morocco, or in that side of the world. And can you even compare it to this though? Even the plague is worse? Can you complain? Because the plague is worse. There's no point in closing the symptoms. But with this, the the key issue here is that people are pre symptomatic, they are highly infected, they're walking around, they're walking.
And that was in the past even have any kind of in a plague though there's no point in closing a machine is that if you're in the middle of a plague, then the plague is everywhere. Right? So despite all of this, and generally people who are despite all of this, they did not close them.
Close the mustard. Why? Because Because Because if somebody got the plague, I mean, I don't know, maybe it's a terminology thing as well, obviously, but generally, if somebody's got a very highly infectious, highly deadly disease, they're going to die. And all the people in that town, then they're gonna die anywhere agree, there's no need to close the machine. But because some people may did, maybe we some people might claim that some people don't have it yet. Okay. So let us
say for example, someone who said that today say someone who is sick, or someone who leprosy, for example, I remember as I read the document you shared around some groups. Yeah. They talked about people with leprosy and can you prevent them from coming to the masjid? Yeah.
You mentioned the three opinions regarding the people who have leprosy. Yeah, they say the fate this leprosy can be transmitted, then there is a decision. If this leprosy cannot be transmitted, then there is another decision. Yeah, so it's just an opening.
This is the point is that with leprosy, you can identify if someone has the disease, and and therefore should they? Or should they not go to the masjid? In this instance, you don't know if people have the disease. And so potentially, they may have it, they may not we may be sitting here. And we may be in the pre symptomatic phase. And then in four days time we change that's why this colors when they talk about the means that lead to outcomes, they differentiate it between three levels. Okay, likely unlikely, and in the middle 5050 5050? If it is unlikely, or maybe there is a possibility, but that possibility is very low, then you don't stop you don't stop? How do you know
the possibilities? And I'm examples like this. And that's why we say that we need to study the issue. Okay. When the disease is spread, really and it is the the the doctors and the scientists confirmed that in a congregation is very likely to have it or to spread it or to have even not just to have it fatalities, yet to have deaths out of this, then we can have another ruling and i think i think it shows
I think it also has we're true Brits because we're taking very much the British approach which is business as usual and wait until someone goes out on the street.
But I mean, if so cost him according to your kind of professional opinion. Yeah. If we do close the machine and buy clothes, I don't mean completely closed, like stop everyone coming except for the very, you know, a handful of people or these types of things, kind of extreme measures, right. If that does happen, we will we will we save lives, theoretically if if we close
When you say clothes as a no longer semester, then we close them, even though that's extreme.
But what if we stopped?
What about public transport? Exactly. So
I think I think we have to be very, we have to discriminate between two different scenarios. Let's look at Italy at the moment it's in, it's in lockdown. People are only allowed out for emergency situations or to get food. That's the only time they're allowed at all drama.
I don't think so. But but that's the only time they were allowed out in that situation. One could make the argument that in that case, you know, isn't it too late by them? Well, it clearly isn't in Italy's case. But But then there's the other scenario, which is, which is why I think we're in difficult situation in the UK, because of the policy of the UK Government, where and that's why I mentioned, it is disingenuous to suggest that we should close the surgeon, when you've got schools open, you've got supermarkets open, you've got public transport open, you know, there's what's the point of closing? And I don't really get that argument, because it seems very reactive. Why Why
shouldn't we be proactive instead of just following? Because no, because you will still live your normal, this is the point you will still live your normal life. So you're proactively as a community. So we shall say is, you will more likely get the transmission of the virus in a situation where you're on the tube, and it's busy and so on, then you would in a mustard type setting where you're limited. On the you're, you're praying for maybe 10 minutes, you can maybe implement some level of physical distancing. But you know, it's unlikely. It's more like
a really mellow, mellow drill, Roku, like Roku, if you can reduce the transmission rate, you know, somebody but what's the what's the playing devil's advocate?
Very good point.
So, so professionally, the UK government would say no, carry on as normal. The the Islamic position, I think, is also you know, it's a very serious decision to make to suggest that we will now close the massage for x, y, and Zed. It's, it's easy to make that decision in other countries, which are now take even UK let's take the example of Netherlands which is now or France, which is on the trajectory towards Italy, but it's taking down Yes, it's taken steps slightly earlier than Italy has, they've now gone into lockdown, and then all the Italy phase yet, so that that's a separate situation. But I think in the UK, and this way is going to be region based country based, because
every country is adopting a different policy as well. So, in summary, your advice is obviously don't take closing machine very, you know, lightly, but if somebody is at risk themselves in terms of the elderly, if they live with the elderly, if they immunocompromised a diabetic have high blood pressure, what should they do? This so those people who is an is likely to be harmed or to cause harm, because the ruling Islamic ruling is very clear. Yeah. Okay. Those people who are likely to be harmed or harm others, yeah, then they should stop themselves from being engaged in that activity that might cause harm to others or reciprocate harm for themselves because the prophet SAW Selim
don't cause harm don't reciprocate harm so what should they do pray at home? Yeah, right at home and even at home if they can pray in congregation with the home members, okay, any like a
member of the family then that is far better and what should they do for drama? This is something we've heard joma massage it maybe they can maybe split the their congregation so they can pray maybe different jamas Okay, number of demands, and they can also minimize the hotbar Yeah, and shorten the Salah. Yeah, okay. And in order to do number of Dumas Okay, and to do to avoid this being congregation, this is a measure if the whole country move towards that measure, but to take measures and still we are mixing with people in transportation, we are still mixing with people in English.
So what is what is the point of maybe tackling this and it will not mean minimize anything, because we are still in physical contact with will not minimize if if we adopt the model now that should suggesting will that have an impact on you look at the probabilities of where people are likely to get these infections and whether they're likely to be infected. It's going to be in public areas or confined public areas, whether in a prolonged period of time, so transportation is a major issue, offices, workplaces, and so on. Yes, I think so. I think what you're suggesting is so individuals who are at risk or compromised or or could put others at home, I think from now should should start
to look at their situation. And for me, that situation has been, you know, people in
Category need to you No need to look at their own circumstances and make their own decision. But for a national level, and if mosques or you know places like this to say we're going to preemptively close when the rest of the UK is businesses normal is a slightly difficult,
many people won't adhere to it. Now, if that's the other, the other thing is one or two early then people will stop. Even Muslims in particular, because you said earlier today, you know, people in East London Mosque this afternoon, and it was full of uncle's elderly people. And one of the things that's always frustrates me pre COVID-19 when people are are sick, and they still make an effort to go to the mosque, and they're coughing and spluttering, and, you know, this for me is not right in the first place, or don't get me started.
Really, let alone in these. Okay. Next question is some people have asked asking, will it be Is there any benefit of having drumline outdoors, for example, an open place when the weather is nice, does that have any impact on on your lesson closed, so of course, and you have less services that you come into contact with, so there will be a lower level of transmission. There's another there's another one of the FAQs is what how to deal with the body of the deceased. And some people have been asking, they said when they were 10 deaths, four of them were Muslim in the UK. So, this is something that the community is going to be asking more and more about, yeah, it is very simple. Of
course, you cannot watch the body directly. So if you true is that is there still infectious after that. So the the evidence suggests that people the the cadaver is still infectious, even after death. So there is a concern that there is transmission silicone, somebody with all the protection. So if they can wash the body and taking this certain measures in order not to be infected by the virus, this is of course the priority. Okay? If they can't do that, then maybe they can pour water from a very distance place. Okay. Maybe using some maybe like hose or something or maybe
What is it mechanical equipment to do that? If that is not possible? Yeah. Then what can we do and the rule is fear of law as much as you can.
And there's also somebody mentioned, maybe the person has a shop, kind of shops keeper and raise the prices of certain items during this time and demand taking advantage taking advantage should not be done.
Okay, taken advantage of brothers and sisters, especially we as Muslims, we should have the highest standard of luck, we should show. It is the time for us, my dear respected brothers and sisters, to show okay to demonstrate to the entire society, that we are the source of goodness for them, rather than the source of grief, rather than we are here to bring benefit rather than we are a burden on the society. So Muslims should not do that Muslims should behave in a very mature way. The Muslims are generous Muslims believe in a Medina, Muslims have their trust in Allah de la. Muslims bring higher to the entire humanity. Muslims are helpful to people. The Prophet sallallahu Sallam says,
Allah is helping you as far as you helping your fellow Muslims and even the non Muslim idiot, you are helping him if he's not the enemy of Allah, Allah, Allah. Yes. Then you can also this idea might be applied on that circumstance as well. Circle of friendship. Qasim, where do you think we're going to be in during Ramadan in terms of government policy in terms of because here's what some people many people are worried about now. taraweeh, and so forth. So realistically, Ramadan is starting what towards the end of April. So we have maybe a month and a half before Ramadan begins. We'll be over this by then. Unlikely in the UK is unlikely. I think it's good. We'll continue. By this point.
Again, it will come down to the situation at the time and it is a rapidly evolving situation, hence the need for Boris Johnson to have daily press briefings now. So we'll and we'll let's see where we are in a month and a half. we're nowhere near a vaccine yet that that is still months away. So we need to see whether the government's herd immunity policy has worked. It's unlikely and many experts sighs I can't call him personally but it's unlikely many experts eyes that it will have worked. So we need to see where we are. I think really looking at the politics and the way things are shaping. It might be that we're in complete lockdown by that point in the UK, in which case, you know maybe
the questions taken out of our hand automatically In which case, maybe the
Chris into the show, here's what do people do in their own homes and, and so on? That is perhaps a question for that time, we have to see where we are now, I think to preemptively come up with answers to questions that haven't even arrived, Arizona is perhaps another danger, because we have to deal with the facts as they are as both the Islamic issues, but even the scientific issues, we have to deal with the facts as they currently are. But realistically, we're not we're not we're not near a vaccine yet. You know, the earliest earliest estimates, and this is assuming the initial studies work. And six to eight months, I have colleagues at UCL in my department, who are working
with the Oxford general Institute, in trying to develop vaccines for COVID. And this is a global effort now, not just, you know, China or whatever, there's a global effort still, you know, it's going to be months away, realistically, so people are saying realistically, a year 18 months, so we're not we're nowhere near a vaccine. So the question is, is now how do we, and really for me, the question is, how do we get to October and then what do we do in October onwards? Because that second wave is a potential reality and is based on the data we have is a realistic reality. So it's, um, it's a situation I think we need to manage week by week, month by month and then ask those questions
when they arise, Shawn Okay, inshallah, we'll certainly try and have you on again, in the near future, I think brothers like yourself and Dr. Ron Qureshi. They're like rockstars now in the community Mashallah daily, Oh, nice. I've been working, working, you know, diligently away and now it's become another kind of international spotlight. So you know, enjoy weight loss, but don't get to your head and then the end of the world is nigh
at that point. So share some final message from you for the Muslims. What do you want to what do you want them to remember? Yeah, just other than you know, the we're in a crisis and yeah, just remember this Allah de la in one verse. Allah Allah Allah says pulling you see when a llama Kabbalah hula hula molana
Wanda life idiot, okay, Mommy, no, nothing will harm us except what Allah Allah Allah has decreed. He is our protector, he is our Lord. And therefore we should rely on Allah delana and put out it was on a ledger. This summarizes the whole thing My dear respected brothers and sisters, so I can assure and dogma hiren for you at home for wherever you are at home or driving or going to work. So self isolation, self isolation, you're bonkers.
Let us know in the comments, if you have any issues or other questions that we'll be looking at it very closely. inshallah, if you like this podcast, give it a like and share and remember to subscribe.
I looked at the stats the other day and most of the people that watch and subscribed so make sure you do that now. Also a quick reminder we're looking at how we can add Islam to a new and see
preempt some kind of maybe measures that perhaps maybe the tidal wave for example might be
local that might be closed or something like that. We're looking at assumption and see how we can step in in the online space to try and help us all make the most of this phenomenon coming is going to be probably a very interesting one a very unprecedented one. So let us know in the comments below what ideas you have that you would like to see some turning on see
bring to light in Ramadan or preparing for Ramadan how we can make the most Ramadan Despite this, this pandemic So yeah, that's it for me, my friend for watching knucklehead doctor classroom if you can shift up the head. Someone had that and I'll see you next time.