EP 064 – IlmFeed Podcast with Nuriddeen Knight – Aisha RA, Hijabi Fashion, Reclaiming Women’s Spaces

Fatima Barkatulla

Channel: Fatima Barkatulla

Topics: Hijab

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© No part of this transcript may be copied or referenced or transmitted in any way whatsoever. Transcripts are auto-generated and thus will be be inaccurate. We are working on a system to allow volunteers to edit transcripts in a controlled system.


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[Fatima:] A'uzubillahi minasshaitanirrajim, Bismillahi Rahmani Raheem, Alhamdulillah wa Salatu was Salam ala rasulillah Sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam. Dear brothers and sisters, Assalaam Alaykum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh. And welcome to this another remote and feed podcast episode. we are somewhat back in the studio, as you can see, but with this new situation, there's have actually been some benefits. And one of those benefits, I would say, has been that Alhamdulillah we've been able to reach out to guests who we might not usually have done simply because we would, have you know, waited for them to come to the UK or some kind of situation where they could come to the studio, but Alhamdulillah

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because of you know what technology and because of the current situation where everyone is moving online.

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We've had the opportunity to invite some great guests. And today's guest is no different, Alhamdulillah I have with me today, Ustadza Nuriddeen Knight, all the way from America.

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Ustadza Nuriddeen completed an MA in psychology with a focus on children and family from Columbia University. And alongside her academic degree, she studied traditional Islamic knowledge including Islamic law, theology, spirituality and the prophetic biography with local scholars and in the majelis in Amman, Jordan, Mashallah. She is also author of 40 Hadith that are a collection of 40 hadeeths narrated from the beloved Sage scholar, life of the Prophet, mother of the believers. Aisha radhi Allahu-anha

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Assalaam aleikum wa rahmatullah wa barakato. [Nuriddeen:] Wa'alaikummussalam warahmatullahi wabarakatuh. Alhamdulillah, thank you Fatima for having me on. Oh, I'm so pleased that we've got to meet because I think we've only kind of come across each other, virtually Up to now, right?

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[Nuriddeen:] Yes, and then I've benefited from your work online. And I think you have your Twitter, WhatsApp, we've come across each other Alhamdulillah. [Fatima:] Alhamdulillah and I've actually got a copy of your book done, I can see it Mashallah, you see, you can see I've got all the post in notes, because I've been, using it Alhamdulillah I've been teaching this in class

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about the life and scholarship of Aisha radhi Allahu-anha during lockdown. And this has been one of the books that I've really, you know, benefited from and been using. So, I encourage our listeners and viewers to go online, and I got my copy from Amazon. So it's readily available in the UK Alhamdulillah. So, yeah, I wanted to ask you, Ustadza, first of all, you're in Memphis, right, Tennessee? [Fatima:] Yes.

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See, I don't know about our viewers and listeners, but I know very little about America. Okay. So please, tell us what is it like there? What has it been like there? The only thing I know about Memphis is

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Graceland basically.

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[Nuriddeen:] Wow, I've actually only been here for about a month now. So I better tell you about the East Coast. I grew up in New York and then we were in New Jersey.

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Yeah, I've only been here a month is a really great Muslim community here. Really beautiful nature was is the Mississippi River. It's here. So MashaAllah it's a lovely place and one thing about America is that it's so diverse in terms of the landscape from then on. So in just go to so many different types of places, different types of weather within the US. [Fatima:] Right, you've got beaches, you've got canyons, you got.

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mountains, very, very cold areas. Yes. You know, Subhanallah yeah. I have seen American movies.

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And humble.

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[Nuriddeen:] Come together. [Fatima:] Yes, yes. And I had a few years where I lived with some American sisters in Egypt.

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So they filled me, you know, on quite a lot of stuff. They were from Baltimore from Maryland. Okay. But you're from, you're from, like, Where did you grow up? Please tell us a little bit about your background. [Nuriddeen:] Okay. I grew up in Brooklyn, New York. So

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My parents are Caribbean immigrants. So they moved to the states when they were

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teenagers essentially. And you know, separately there was this big wave of Caribbean immigrants that came in the 70s. And my parents are part of that. And so the neighborhood we grew up in was a lot of Caribbean immigrants. Both my parents are converts to a song converted in adulthood. And so we grew up there, Alhamdulillah. And it's a,diverse neighborhood in terms of different types of people from the Caribbean's of different places that everyone is from. And then within New York, it's an interesting place because it's diverse, but it's very much segregated. So everyone has their own sort of pocket of the city. But you can go to Little Italy, you can go to Chinatown, you can go to where I was

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where there are a lot of Caribbeans and see different bits of everyone's culture. So no, yeah, that's a bit about my background.

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[Fatima:] So would you say what kind of schooling did you have? Did you go to regular school? Did you go to Muslim school? What was your..

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[Nuriddeen:] I went to all public schools. And in all of my public school, all of my schooling actually was with that same cohort of Caribbean immigrants, or actually, we were first generation Americans. So that was most of my schooling people like myself in that way.

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But non Muslim, and so that's what that was my schooling, including college, and that I went to Columbia for graduate school, or public school.

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[Fatima:] MashaAllah, so what brought to you onto the path of knowledge and get tell us a little bit about your journey in terms of seeking knowledge?

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[Nuriddeen:] Yeah, so Alhamdulillah, being from a Muslim household, of course, you have to have some knowledge, you have to be able to pray and fast. And so of course, I learned a lot from my parents. And then my eldest sister, she was the first one to really go out and seek knowledge. So just remember her going to different retreats and different

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intensives. And I think she went to Morocco as well and had learned was actually one of the first in a sense, one of the first Zaytuna students, but like, before, it was Zaytuna. So learning from the teachers there in California before they actually formed the Institute. So Alhamdulillah I think I was very inspired by her that was sort of my first glimpse to someone seeking knowledge in that way. And then when I became an adult, I also felt that okay, Alhamdulillah, I'm born and raised Muslim, but I want to really be able to genuinely accept Islam for myself, it's very easy to just be Muslim, your families will slowly just continue on with that path. But I think there's more in depth that

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you get when you go out. And, and it doesn't necessarily have to be knowledge that was kind of the initial path that I chose. It could also be spiritually, whatever you're doing to try and gain nearness to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala, in what in whatever, you know, legitimate ways that you can do it. And so I wanted to seek knowledge for that reason to better understand and to really have that depth of belief for myself. So Alhamdulilah, one of the first places that I went, it was a center in New York, where they were teaching, basically beginner a traditional study, so they had beginner classes, perfect to sew up.

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And some other Seerah from some other beginner level classes. So that's what I started doing the classes would be Saturday, Sundays, I wouldn't go in there basically, every week, and then once I'd kind of exhausted the classes, because it was essentially, the classes would be different. I think every, every semester would be different. But like, if you stayed there for two or three semesters, it was back to the classes you might have learned, you know, when you were when you first started there. So

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to advance my studies, I wanted to go overseas and try to see if I could advance it that way. I did. Also after those classes, there were a couple of teachers who were continuing to teach and trying to especially teach students who had been going to that center where there was one class where the teacher wanted to take

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It might to a more in depth level with fiqh (Islamic jurispundence). Because there were other students like myself who were very consistently and, you know, we were out of classes to take. So Alhamdulillah wanting to just have a deeper sense of belief for myself is really what initially like me to start seeking knowledge

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[Fatima:] Alhamdulillah. So did you actually go to Zaytuna yourself? Or.. [Nuriddeen:] No, my younger sister went to Zaytuna, but I never. [Fatima:] Okay. Oh, Subhanallah, so MasyaAllah your family, it seems like, you know, are into seeking knowledge and have been and so what would you say was your particular interest in Aisha radhi Allahu-anha and you know, what, what would you say was the background to you wanting to write this book and your interest in Aisha radhi Allahu-anha in general?

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[Nuriddeen:] Yeah, I found her interesting, for a lot of different reasons. So one reason I found her interesting is because we know that she's the Beloved of the Prophet Sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam. So then it will make you thin will or what is it about her that the Prophet Sallallahu 'allaihi wa sallam loved so much? And there's even a hadeeth that I think I have included in the book where the Prophet Sallallahu "alaihi wa sallam tells Fatima, do you love what I love? And she says, Yes, and then he says, so love Aisha, right. So we are supposed to love her as our mother. And so I wanted to know more about her for that reason. Another reason was,

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I would hear people talk about her in terms of women in Islam, who sought knowledge and who were scholars, but I didn't hear anything about her in depth. So it was an interesting thing of utilizing her and re scholarship as a defense against especially non Muslim critique that were the Muslim women scholars, but not utilizing her in the same way we would use scholars and, and use them as resources and seek knowledge from the men talk about them and talk about their lives. And so that was another reason. And then, and I mentioned this in the book, that there was also when she would come up, it would often be about her age. And I thought that even though my knowledge at the time

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was limited, and of course, still is still a lot more than I need to learn. I felt that if this woman was such a great scholar and the Beloved of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wasallam, why are we focusing on this small part of her life? You know, we're so we're focusing on the moment she got married, what was her age, instead of you know, I mean, she lived a very long life, including after the Prophet Sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam, so there is a lot that happened in her life. And there's a lot that she witnessed, and that's where that's one reason why we can learn so much from her, because she was there with the Prophet Sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam even before marriage, because of Abu Bakr,

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radhi Allahu-anhu, so there's so much that she saw that we can learn from her, as well as once I did begin to dig into story, as well as from her character and who she was as a person.

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[Fatima:] Subhanallah, you raised some really important points, because, you know, I think a lot of people don't realize that Aisha radhi Allahu-anha was only 18 when the Prophet Sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam passed away, and she lived a long life, you know, she lived away into the, I think the Khilafa of Muawiyah. Definitely.

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And, you know, so she basically lived, the majority of her life was actually after the death of the Prophet salallahu, alayhi wasallam. That's not to say that, obviously, those years that she spent with him, were not very, very concentrated in the, you know, the happenings and the benefits and things that, you know, that she would have gained from those years. But it is, you know, strange that we often stop talking about her at the point where the Prophet Sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam passed away, right. Yeah. And actually, that was kind of the beginning of her new role, right?

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Educator of the Muslims as really a source because I've always been very intrigued how Abu Bakr, of course a father, but then Omar especially, and Uthman and beyond, and others sahaba, they would

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Literally asked Aisha radhi Allahu-anha there were things that

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spots for them or areas where they realized that actually she would know because nobody had that kind of, well, very few people had that very intimate

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relationship with the Prophet sallallahu 'alaihi Sallam that they could say things like, you know, the Prophet used to like this, or he used to do this, or this was his habits, or that was his habit, or, you know, if the Prophet was here today, he would have, etc, etc, right? kinds of statements or only statements that somebody who's very close to somebody, and he lives with them

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day in and day out, over times and in public would know. Right?

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[Nuriddeen:] Right. Absolutely. And that's, that's the fascinating thing is, I do also find those stories fascinating, where there is a dispute between the Sahaba. And they go to Lady Aisha to settle their dispute, right, someone thinks, the prophet said, verse, someone else think the Prophet said, darling, and they go to the Aisha and she settles it. So they, they really respected her position and her knowledge. And that's another beautiful thing I find about lady Aisha radhi Allahu-anha because she was a great scholar of Islam. But one of the things that is so beautiful about that, because in our time, when we talk about scholarship, we're talking about going to school and and getting an

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education and becoming a scholar in that way. But a huge part of her scholarship was of course, an observation. It was also an asking good questions and having them clarified, and of course, in her memory, and also in her being curious enough to know.

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I think sometimes we kind of, we don't realize how valuable that is to knowledge, right? Because if you just study but you're never curious enough to ask further questions to ask details. There's so much you wouldn't know. And that's a large part. The another big reason why we have so much knowledge from her is because she asked questions, she asks, you know, follow up questions that would further allow us to have a more in depth knowledge from the Prophet Sallallahu 'alaihi wasallam

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[Fatima:] absolutely. And

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the thing about Aisha radhi Allahu-anha is thank Allah, she was curious, you know, because

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her curiosity you gave us so much, you know, that's Subhanallah in terms of detail. But also, she's almost like the camera, right for the whole era. So like, even when she relates how, you know, she observed her father's friendship with Rasulullah Sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam. And then that night, when she'd never she said, she never seen anyone cry out of happiness, before I saw her father, and we're talking about, you know, a small kid right at this age at this time. But she's looking at him and she's observing the fact that was that Rasulullah sallallahu 'alaihi wa Sallam has come and asked Abu Bakr to accompany him on the hegira. Other cries and so right from the beginning, you

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know, she was like this camera, who gave us this amazing insight into the

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I would say, the the details of what was really going on, right?

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[Nuriddeen:] Yes, yes. Alhamdulillah, And we also have Abu Bakr radhi Allahu-anhu to think for that, in that story where the Prophet sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam comes in, it's going to tell him that they're making hegira the Prophet Sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam first asked him for a private moment so that he can discuss this with him. And it's his daughters that are sitting with him and he says, you know, they're from your..., I forget if he uses the word ummah or family or what the word is precisely, but essentially to say, you know, they can be just as trusted, it's okay, fair here. And we have Abu Bakr to think for him, wanting his daughters to be there and to witness all of this phenomenon that was happening. So that closeness begins with his

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closest to the Prophet Sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam and also just him allowing them to be in that space and also absorbed what was happening.

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[Fatima:] And that's another thing that strikes you that Aisha radhi Allahu-anha with her curiosity with her, I would say quite extrovert personality, right? And was never suppressed. Do you know what I mean? Like she was never told to not to be quiet basically. And the reason why I mentioned that is because

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I don't know about you, but certainly in

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South Asian culture, it's quite common for parents to not just with girls and boys as well to kind of tell them to basically be quiet and just observe what the adults doing, you know not not really ask any questions, not really, you know, your confidence isn't necessarily loose

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by parents. And so I think one of the things that you're right, we can't lose sight of is she was the product of her parents upbringing, right?

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[Nuriddeen:] Yes, exactly. I think we absolutely can't lose sight of that, without that beginning that nurturing,

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I think it's safe to say she likely would not have been who she was. And that is so crucial. But we do see the balance, right? They are there. But Allahu a'lam, I think part of the reason they can be there is because they're respectful, right? If they were the kind of kids who are going to be noisy, interrupts, then maybe it would have to, you know, take space elsewhere. But even the ability to sit there and be quiet, but then to also be curious. It's one thing I found about Aisha radhi Allahu-anha, I think a lot of us know that she had this sort of feisty personality. And we see this in the stories of her, her jealousy over the Prophet Sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam. But you also see this

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incredible humility. And that's one thing I found so interesting about her character is that balance, she is not afraid to stand up for truth. She's not afraid to ask question that will help her better understand that she praise the Anshari women for being able to ask questions, and not allow their shyness to suppress that. But at the same time, she like one of the reasons that she was buried at, I believe it's called a Baqi' where all of the wifes are buried, is because she said, Yeah, because she says, I don't want to be seen as better than I am, right? So we might think, well, Aisha, that beloved of the quality service, tell them this woman of great knowledge. She should be

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buried with the companions, or next to a Prophet. But that's not how she actually saw herself. So what I think can come off to just sort of a common reader as arrogance. It really was, and it was more of this passion for knowledge, and even a passion about her love for the Prophet Sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam that caused the jealousy that she had, but we shouldn't, that shouldn't be, we shouldn't think that that is sort of

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all her character is that humility was also so crucial to your character. [Fatima:] Definitely, I actually have that bullet pointed right here in front of me that quote, you mentioned

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that then it says in on page 33 of your book, she died at the age of 66, on the 17th of Ramadan, in 57 H or 58, and was buried in Jannatul Baqi' before her death, she said to her nephew Abdullah Ibni al-Zubayr , may Allah pleased with him: Do not bury me with the Prophet, Abu Bakr and Omar. But bury me with my companions, I with the other wives of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam in al-Baqi', as I would not like to be looked upon as better than I really am, Subhanallah.

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I mean, how many people would say that, right? How many of us would like to be known? Not, you know, not to be known better than we really are? Right? Right. It's not a common trait anymore.

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Definitely, you've highlighted so many things. And I think you're what you said about the jealousy aspect. I think one of the things that I'm really realizing and teaching about her life is

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you know, she was really human. And

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of course, the Sahaba were the best human beings.

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The reason why Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala gave them ups and downs, I believe is so that they would they would be a model for us. Right. And so that in a way, it makes her so approachable. It makes us so so term relatable, you know, she, she did have, of course, the majority of the time, you know, there there was a peaceful relationship, but they weren't the ups and downs of life. Obviously, there was the huge event of the slander of Aisha radhi Allahu-anha

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for for a Muslim woman to go through right now. Um, but beyond

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That one of the things that I really felt was a that one of the things I noticed was that despite the fact that she had this sense of competition with the other wifes, etc. And, and vice versa.

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When it came to the crunch, they were honest and they told the truth. So, even you know, during the incident of the slander, when

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when Zainab bint Jahsh, one of the otherwise the Prophet salallahu alaihe wa sallam was asked about Aisha. And she was like, quite a rival of Aisha, because, you know, they were quite competitive with each other. The Prophet Sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam's attention. Still, when it came to the crunch, Zainab said I don't know anything but good about her. Right.

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Even when Zainab passed away later on, Aisha praise her and mention all of the good things that she used to do. Right. So Subhanallah, so.. Yes, what that kind of shows us is, yes, you have ups and downs, yes. You might not get with everybody, right? Everyone you come across in life, but that shouldn't make you unjust, right?

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[Nuriddeen:] Yes, yes, upon a lot about that moment in that story. It's so beautiful. And it's so moving, because I think we can all sort of imagine myself in that position when you're, you know, adversary, or whatever it is in, in work, or in a similar situation, that they're finally at the point where they could fall and you have the opportunity to just

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let it you know, let, let it all sort of fall on where it's going. And you don't, you know, Alhamdulillah, you are held back. It's such a beautiful example like that she had everything to gain from saying even just something small that could put doubt.

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But she did it Subhanallah, and then also helped to mend their relationship. That moment is really beautiful, another beautiful, another beautiful moment. And that story

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is seeing what Aisha radhi Allahu-anha how high to face,

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being the wife of a Prophet Sallallahu ''alaihi wa sallam being beloved by the Prophet Sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam and being a noble woman, like you said, it would be a hard trial for any Muslim woman to go through. You, you just have to think about you spend your whole life being modest, staying away from immodest situations. And then something like this happens, and you're accused of something so lowly, and there's really nothing you can do to defend yourself. And so it is such a difficult situation for her. We're not even the Prophet Sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam, not until he got revelation could say

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anything completely clear. And that's not to say that he believed what was happening or what was being spread. But it was a very difficult situation. And so in that moment, even as a mother of a believers, the wife of the Prophet Sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam, the beloved Prophet Sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam. In that moment, she had to be alone and she had to be alone with her faith in Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala and Allahu a'lam, but that trial to me in that moment that she went to went through, it really was her happy, Allahu a'lam but it almost seems like her having to prove her individual devotion to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala right? Not because I'm the daughter of Abu Bakr. And not just or not just

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because I'm the daughter of Abu Bakr or not just because I'm the wife of the Prophet Sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam. But this belief is sincere between me and Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala that even when the whole world is against me, I'm still going to turn into that and Allahu a'lam but but I kind of see that as a test in that way.

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So it's a beautiful moment for her and for her belief in devotion to be able to shine through in that way. And it was difficult for her it was a difficult trial. Sometimes we think that when sahaba when righteous people go through childhood and every single part of the way they're just you know happy go lucky this is a child and gonna be rewarded from God and you know, just can't wait for the reward. I'm just you know, suffering this whole time but with a smile on my face. And that's not reality. As you said she was so human. She was sad. She was hurt that people would say this about her. But even in that she still turned to Allahu Subhanahu wa Ta'ala who then revealed her innocence

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in the Quran and in that moment, she said

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I didn't think I was worthy of that. So Subhanallah of course, we would prefer that our that our mother lady Aisha did not go through that trial, but in her going through it, it's such a beautiful lesson for us as Muslims. [Fatima:] Absolutely Subhanallah, and I think another thing that really stands out for me is that at various stages, that even she would say, you know, she made certain mistakes, right things that she would consider to be mistakes, or miss judgments, whatever you want to call it.

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And when she realized that they were miss judgments or mistakes, she was quick to return back, you know, quick to correct herself quick to, I would say, adjust herself, and then refocus on what, whatever the right thing was. So whereas anyone else would kind of fall apart, you know, you'd lose your confidence, you'd, you'd sort of think, oh, I've made such a mistake, like, you know, I need to just basically hide away now. And she didn't allow it to make her, you know, stop doing good. She just adjusted herself, right, she would make Istighfar, she would adjust herself, and then take the right way, but take it very confidently, you know,

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the example that I'm thinking of, is, especially after the Battle of the camel, you know,

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when actually during that whole incident, she realized that things were going to fall apart and things were going to go wrong, right. And she never intended that. Um, but then she remembered that Rasulullah Sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam had, had kind of advised her especially and the wives to, to not go out in that way, etc. Or that he had warned about some incident that was going to happen when one of them would hear the dogs of how abrites

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bark. And he had kind of shown disapproval of that. And he heard those dogs barking, she realized that he may be talking about her. And she quickly wanted to go back.

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And in the end, and she did go back and Ali radhi Allahu-anhu, who you know, as we would expect, you know, being the chivalrous Sahabi that he was he had her accompanied back now to Medina, um,

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you know, I know that she seemed to be very sad about that incident. Even on her deathbed, she kind of remembered it. And, you know, she kind of regretted some of those things. At the same time, from that moment until the end of her life. It's almost as though she redoubled her efforts in doing

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doing the good, which is basically what she knew was her job, in fact, crystallized for her I think.

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The political realm was not going to be the right place for her. Instead, the realm of knowledge, right, preserving the sunnah, nurturing that next generation of scholars became her main focus, I think,

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[Nuriddeen:] Verily, that's such an important and valuable point is that she felt remorseful about that, that so called battle in itself, and I say so called battle because it's not Aisha radhi Allahu-anha actually fought. Right. It was, it was a difficult situation like this. When I read it, it's very interesting because Allahu a'lam, but it doesn't seem that that was her intention. It doesn't seem like no, no, no more right? Or battle. [Fatima:] So something that basically went out of hand and exactly with some other people who basically instigated things, etc. Mm hmm. [Nuriddeen:] Yes, exactly. And so even, it's interesting, because even in her being a part of that, and then like you said, I think it simply got

00:34:17--> 00:35:00

out of hand and of course, people were killed. But her intention was right, in the sense that she did justice for justice. And exactly as you said, once she realized that she was mistaken, but she was remorseful because her intention is in the right place to please Allah subhanahu wa Ta'ala to have justice, to be a leader in her in her own way and continue to preserve the message of the Prophet sallahu 'alaihi wa sallam. So when that intention is clear, then once she realizes I wasn't mistaken, and she can resort and I think you're right, but she spent so much time on the younger generation especially

00:35:00--> 00:35:05

Those close to her connected to her, you know, her nephews and young.

00:35:06--> 00:35:17

Yeah, she spent so much time teaching them and preserving that knowledge with them. And Subhanallah. That's such a lesson for us because

00:35:18--> 00:36:04

in a, I'll just say outside of that situation. But in a general sense, you could imagine that if you get caught up in something and people die, that could be a reason for someone to throw up their hands for the rest of your life you live in so much or more Instead, it actually disables them. But But I think the way you put it is so correct that she doubled her efforts, because so many stories from Aisha radhi Allahu-anha where she received money because the wives received money from this, essentially. And she would give it all away at once, to the point where you would have nothing left for so what she wasn't thinking about herself. And so he was preparing for the alpha for for all of

00:36:04--> 00:36:13

her life. But But what you said Allahu a'lam that this scene corrected her efforts amplified even more after that incident.

00:36:14--> 00:37:00

[Fatima:] Definitely. And yeah, it just came to me. Because recently, I think I had something that happened that a mistake that I felt I made and you know it, you know, it makes you lose your confidence when you make a mistake, right? It makes you sort of think, well, maybe I should just lead the quiet life, you know, and just sort of hide away and, and stop doing what I'm doing. But in a way, that's also, you know, something that could be a trick of shape on right to stop us from, from doing from basically throwing the baby out with the bathwater, because not everything, if you make a mistake doesn't mean everything you're doing is wrong, right? It just means okay. pinpoint the mistake, stop

00:37:00--> 00:37:40

doing that. And, you know, put your efforts into the right thing. [Nuriddeen:] Right, right. And we're human, of course, she was human and we're human. And we want our intention to be in the correct place. But if we make a mistake, even the most noble women have made mistakes, and so we shouldn't feel too bad about them. We just correct that and we try to double our efforts. But having me know that Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala is going to reward us for the correct intention anyway. So even being able to have that, and that's something that we have the most control over is so important.

00:37:42--> 00:37:42

[Fatima:] Absolutely.

00:37:44--> 00:37:47

Ustadza, I wanted to pick your brains on this topic of

00:37:50--> 00:38:04

I guess, the way that in the modern times, you know, Muslim women are kind of it feels as though what, let me put it, let me be fair to the topic.

00:38:06--> 00:38:41

On the one hand, there have been a lot of positives, right? So I remember growing up in the 80s, right, or, yeah, 80s in London, there was hardly anyone, like, wear hijab, right? My mom would be like, the only one. And she was subject to quite a lot of racial abuse, you know, because of that. But slowly and surely, you know, things have changed, like now, you know, they call London London is done, right? Because, because what a lot like London, wearing the hijab is normal now.

00:38:43--> 00:39:08

Um, but also, because, you know, like, even visibly in the media, etc. We do have women who observed the hijab in politics, we have women who observe the hijab, etc, etc. And I'm only using the hijab as I guess, a visible kind of symbol of a practicing Muslim, right? For Muslim woman

00:39:10--> 00:39:12

or a recognizable one, right.

00:39:14--> 00:39:15

And

00:39:16--> 00:39:21

that's a great thing, that's been a good thing, it means that our waters are growing up, I guess,

00:39:22--> 00:39:31

you know, without some of those feelings, hopefully without some of those feelings of being the only one being the odd one out type thing.

00:39:33--> 00:39:48

But at the same time, there does seem to be some kind of concerted effort to almost appropriate the hijaab as as a sort of accessory, right.

00:39:49--> 00:39:59

So such that it becomes just another tool of skimmerism, right when a fashion yeah

00:40:00--> 00:40:13

So maybe initially, you know, when you saw it becoming more normal, normalized, or, for example, in the UK, they were like, swimming gear for Muslim women, you know, quite covering and modest

00:40:14--> 00:40:21

outfits available in mainstream stores, you know, people got quite happy, right. So Wow, this

00:40:22--> 00:40:24

is becoming normalized in that sense.

00:40:26--> 00:40:34

But then it's kind of a double edged sword, I want to know what your thoughts are on that. Because the double edged sword aspect, I mean, is

00:40:35--> 00:40:49

when these big fashion companies and when, you know, YouTubers who, you know, at the end of the day, the whole kind of youtuber system, I would say, often works on affiliate marketing, right?

00:40:50--> 00:41:08

promoting products, being paid to promote products or being sent products in order to promote them. And when that becomes so overwhelming, and it becomes almost like, the only thing being presented to women and women.

00:41:10--> 00:41:26

And it starts to affect the girls, you know, because I've heard from parents, you know, girls being affected to the extent that they're becoming obsessed with their looks. I mean, that's a problem by the society anyway. Right? Yeah. It's happening to Muslim girls as well.

00:41:27--> 00:41:40

You know, you start worrying like, Subhanallah, we were, we were supposed to be the ones with the healthy relationship, right? Regarding beauty, we had a place for beauty for, you know, kind of,

00:41:41--> 00:41:48

you know, being glamorous and everything. And we had a space that we would have, in a way, right.

00:41:50--> 00:42:06

And in a way, it was nice to be able to go from that to that. But now, the entire space, it feels we're being encouraged to feel with fashion, beautification and the commodification of women.

00:42:08--> 00:42:10

thoughts on that said, Enough, I think

00:42:14--> 00:42:20

[Nuriddeen:] I've been I think you made a lot of good points. You know, I want to just first

00:42:22--> 00:43:11

say, kind of tying it into Aisha radhi Allahu-anha and how before I go to your specific topic in it, she was such a modest woman. And I think that as Muslim women, it's very hard to accept or appreciate in this society, that you can have such an impact, that has nothing to do with looks. And I think that you're right, there was a certain point and a Allahua'lam, maybe it goes through cycles. But I do feel there was a certain point where as Muslim women, we could feel comfort in that, right, we felt like, even though there's a hard aspect to this Subhanallah, it's kind of freeing to not have to do my hair in a certain way every day, or keep up with certain hairstyles, in certain looks that are that

00:43:11--> 00:44:00

are popular because I'm on it. So I'm sort of free from that aspect of consumerism and commodification, like you said, and the male gaze and all of that I'm sort of free from that, because I just bought it, so I don't have to worry about those things in front of strangers, right. So I think that that is such an important point that it is it is interesting. And it can be conflicting, because in one sense, I am happy for the younger generation that they have more that hijab is more normalized, right? So it's probably less likely that you go to school today, and are made fun of for your hijab. Now, Allahua'lam, I can't say that 100%. But I would feel that would be the

00:44:00--> 00:44:18

case, because of all of these popular hijabist on Instagram and YouTube, Allahua'lam, we would need a younger person to tell us, but that was the case. And if that is the case, that's a great thing to not be bullied for wearing Hijab or made fun of her wearing hijab. At the same time, like you said,

00:44:19--> 00:45:00

because hijab has been so stylize then now Okay, you don't have to worry about your hair, but you have to worry about the latest hijab styles and the colors and whatever is in style now on Instagram. And you can it was kind of acceptable at a sense as a Muslim, not everyone did it. But it was somewhat acceptable as a Muslim woman to be a quote unquote, plain Jane outside right where you're playing black Obi and you're playing black forever. It's some combination of loose fitting clothing. Of course some of the women have always liked to dress nicer and fancier and all of that, but it wasn't

00:45:00--> 00:45:25

At least acceptable. Whereas now with younger people, is it acceptable to be that when you have all of these hijabi fashionista type people and million in one hijab styles, and they're selling the hijabs, of course and selling the makeup and selling the clothes. It is it's, it's very, it's interesting. Allahua'lam, especially I know, when I was younger,

00:45:26--> 00:45:56

there weren't a lot of modest clothing choices, right. So we had to try to combine different things together to try to look as modest as possible. Whereas now there are a ton of modest clothing stores. So they have so many choices, but being kind of grouped into that general fashion scene. And then we can also talk about with the modesty, culture, and Instagram and all of that.

00:45:57--> 00:46:07

That's also kind of conflicting, too, because the parading of modesty is kind of anti modern.

00:46:09--> 00:46:55

Right. But it can be hard to have these discussions with younger Muslim women, because they feel that they have all these difficulties with having to stand out and wear a hijab in a non Muslim society. So they're happy that there's more of these images that are more positive. But what is the balance between trying to be modest and promote modesty? But not do it in an immodest way? When in some ways, a lot of these platforms are inherently immodest? [Fatima:] Right, I think everyone, myself included and yourself, you know, we would have had quite a difficult time kind of

00:46:57--> 00:47:28

drawing, I guess, the lines with regards to how much we want to be in the public space? And because I don't think we should be afraid to say that the Muslim woman, her kind of primary domain, or, you know, she's not necessarily she's not encouraged to necessarily be the one who's, you know, standing or sitting in front of everybody being very visible, you know, physically visible, that's not, that's not necessarily where our strength lies, right.

00:47:29--> 00:48:08

And that's why, like, you know, sometimes when people are calling and saying, you know, where are the female scholars, when the female speakers? Sometimes I think, look, just because you can't see them on a poster, you know, it doesn't mean they don't exist. And often, I know that a lot of sisters, they actually choose not to be kind of in that very public space. I respect that opinion, or their, you know, choice to do that, because they're doing a lot of work. And they'll communities, maybe you don't hear about it doesn't mean doesn't have impact, but also with being in the public domain comes a lot of stuff, right.

00:48:10--> 00:48:13

You have to be quite thick skinned. Yes.

00:48:15--> 00:48:18

And, and you have to kind of know your own boundaries. Right.

00:48:19--> 00:49:07

[Nuriddeen:] Right. Right. And that it's funny, I'm doing this class on womanhood and femininity, and in the class, than one of the students mentioned this, as it's so empowering to see more women scholars. And I get that I don't disagree with that. But I also think it's important that we don't just uplift women who are in the public space. And so I know, for example, when I was in Jordan, I access to so many female show you, but that was part B. Well, of course, because there, but it was also important, because I knew them. So I knew that, okay, they're teaching this class on this day in their home. And if you don't know them, you you wouldn't know that. But the assumption, which goes

00:49:07--> 00:49:50

into a larger issue, that if you're not seen, then you're not doing anything or your work is not valuable. It's a big problem. There are even if you're not a scholar, if you're a woman who's at home, and you're taking care of your home, and you're doing your best to be a good wife and a good mother, that is so important for society as well. So it's not that we're saying, you know, obviously we're here we're not saying that we want women to be prevented from the space from public spaces. But we think it is important to say that we have to appreciate the private domain as well, and possibly even more so than the public domain.

00:49:51--> 00:49:59

I also think what you said was important about there being a space for beauty. That's a conversation that

00:50:00--> 00:50:41

I would love to see more of us talk about. I wrote that once on Twitter maybe a month or so ago as it kind of felt like an epiphany. Because even though we know it, I think it has to be said that, when it comes to modesty, modesty is important. But modesty is irrelevant for us as Muslim women, when it comes to non mahram men, that's when it has the most relevance, that's when you have to be covered up. But if you're around women, if you're around your family, if you're around your husband, it's okay to be beautiful, and show your beauty and wear the makeup and all you know the beautiful colors and all of that. And I'm not going to get into whether that's okay outside, like that's

00:50:41--> 00:51:21

another conversation. But it's so valuable for us to realize that there are other spaces outside of the public domain, that's such a limited space outside of the public space, when you're around non mahram men, that is a very limited space, there are all these other spaces where you don't have to worry at all, you can be as beautiful as you want. So I think that's important to that realizing that talking about modesty, but reminding women that it's also important to be beautiful. And let me not say it's important. It's also okay to be beautiful in other spaces.

00:51:22--> 00:51:37

And also just discussing, when you're not modest in particular spaces when you're wearing certain clothing in public spaces. What kind of attention is that bringing towards you what kind of

00:51:39--> 00:52:06

I don't know, just sort of negative attention or attention that maybe you're not intending to get, but simply because you're dressed in a certain way. And there are a non mahram men on social media, then you're causing yourself that kind of attention, that kind of hate and then you're in this space, where like you said, you have to have a thick skin. But if you're doing something on there that isn't

00:52:08--> 00:52:09

I don't know this might

00:52:10--> 00:52:19

but isn't necessarily valuable in and of itself. Then why are you on there? Why are you even fighting to be on there?

00:52:20--> 00:52:22

[Fatima:] I'm not going to be as kind as you

00:52:25--> 00:52:44

to say, because, look, I'm a woman, right? We know, we know how it works, right? And as women, we enjoy admiration, right? You know, as a wife, I want my husband to admire me. We adore

00:52:45--> 00:52:49

the male gaze, right? The right male gaze, I would say

00:52:51--> 00:52:53

we should adore the right male gaze.

00:52:54--> 00:53:22

You know, looking at us admiringly. And there's nothing wrong with that in the Halal context, right way. In fact, we encourage you to do that. In fact, we can be into fashion, we can be into these things, right? As long as we don't go beyond the bounds and we're not wasting money and we're not wasting you know all of our lives in it. There's nothing wrong with loving, beautiful things the Prophet Sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam loved beautiful clothing. You know, he loved

00:53:23--> 00:53:32

he loved beauty. Aisha radhi Allahu-anha, she used to borrow, she used to have a dress, right? But people used to borrow from her sometimes. She used to borrow a necklace from

00:53:34--> 00:54:02

sister, the famous necklace that would always get lost. Right? So beautification. See, I don't want the wrong message to get across to us is that, you know, beautification is, there's anything wrong with it. I mean, like, in the right space, right? I mean, remember that wonderful space, we used to have, you know, where beauty was kept to that, you know, space where sisters would, and it still does exist, it's not that it's not.

00:54:03--> 00:54:08

But sisters would literally come in wrapped up and then you know,

00:54:09--> 00:54:29

before you knew it, everyone had looking beautiful, glamorous, you know, enjoy that space fully, and we would be free and we wouldn't read about kind of, you know, anyone looking at each other in the wrong way or any kind of thing and we enjoyed, and we enjoy in that space, true sisterhood

00:54:30--> 00:54:42

is beauty. Um, I really wish that we could, and we should encourage our sisters to reclaim that private space

00:54:43--> 00:54:53

and to remove the public's space from being as vague sexualization, etc. You know, we, as Muslim women, we were like the, I would say,

00:54:55--> 00:54:57

the kind of flag bearers for that, you know,

00:54:58--> 00:55:00

for removing the

00:55:00--> 00:55:04

Or being against the sexualization of the public space and the commoditization of

00:55:05--> 00:55:10

sadly, I fear that we're falling, you know, victim to,

00:55:13--> 00:55:14

to certain industries, I would say.

00:55:15--> 00:55:43

[Nuriddeen:] Right I, I completely agree with that. And I would say reclaim and also create for those who haven't. Because of course, there are convert, who don't necessarily have that culture, but it can be created. That's so important. And I, you know, unfortunate because we live in a society that feed the certain ideas. I don't think we really understand the impact or or

00:55:44--> 00:55:53

not even sure how to word it. But I feel that some women really don't understand the way that they're immodesty.

00:55:56--> 00:56:00

It's so hard to try and say the exact right, be be very, very careful.

00:56:01--> 00:56:49

[Fatima:] But look, I just want to make the point. Yeah, I know why you're being very careful. It's because you know, we love our sisters. And we, Subhanallah sisters, it, you know, anyone out there who's listening to this, you know, nobody wants to talk about this topic, unless they really love you for the sake of Allah. Because, unfortunately, you know, the propensity for people to think that you're being overly critical or judgmental, etc, etc, is quite high. So I just want to reassure, you know, our listeners, and I'm sure they understand this, that, you know, as women who have studied the deen, Ustadza Nuriddeen and myself, it becomes a duty on us to love for you what we love for

00:56:49--> 00:57:13

ourselves. And just as a mother Aisha radhi Allahu-anha, you know, women would come in front of her and sometimes, and it's not just about the hijab, it could be about any issue. If something was visibly incorrect in front of her, she would correct that, that she did that in her time, right? Aisha radhi Allahu-anha has no longer here in ... all the female scholars that are here, right, and,

00:57:15--> 00:57:27

and so it becomes our duty, and it's out of our love. And immense, I would say desire for you. And for us to go to Jannah (Paradise), and

00:57:30--> 00:57:39

that we talk about this, right? [Nuriddeen:] Subhanallah. I remember one of my teachers in Georgia,

00:57:40--> 00:57:42

she was

00:57:43--> 00:58:28

too many. And I could understand why her delivery would be very harsh on on some issues. But it's time to realize that she really does love us. And she loves Islam, and she loves Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala, she wants for us what she wants for herself. So it's not harshness for the sake of being harsh. It's with a purpose. And I think that a part of the hesitation on talking about these issues, including from myself is that I do empathize with what younger Muslim women especially a lot of these women are in their 20s. I empathize with what they are dealing with. And I empathize with the fact that they may feel well, I'm more modest than non Muslim. So why are you still you know,

00:58:28--> 00:58:30

harassing me about this issue.

00:58:31--> 00:58:54

But I think that we have kind of lost the reality that, like you said, being in those all women's spaces, there's a freedom you can have with being beautiful. There's no worries about anything, or if you're with your husband, and you're beautiful. But when it's in front of non mahram men, then there is the danger. So what a lesson.

00:58:56--> 00:59:01

Sorry, we didn't say there are also diseases of the heart that are at play. They're also diseases of the heart.

00:59:03--> 00:59:15

Exactly. And so all of this negative attention and just negative effect of being beautiful in the wrong spaces. Right. So you know, and I would say on a practical note,

00:59:16--> 00:59:56

it's okay to simply try to do better than you did yesterday. You know, no one's most of us are not going to completely go from zero to 100. Now you're completely I knew this one Congress sister that when she became Muslim, she did completely start wearing a burqa and niqab. So, every once in a while you have women like that, but for the most part, if we're in modest or not as modest as we can be, we can do better slowly, we can do better than we were doing before. Um, it's also I think about sometimes like, wouldn't it be great if there was maybe an all women's Instagram or some someone

00:59:57--> 00:59:59

because like I said, women have the urge

01:00:00--> 01:00:12

To be admired, it's true for most of us as women. But how do we do that in the right spaces so that we don't garner the negative attention and so that we're doing it in a halal as well.

01:00:13--> 01:00:38

[Fatima:] And I think the other aspect of this is keeping Allah as your number one focus. And I think that sometimes gets lost, doesn't it in this conversation, because when we sometimes talk about, you know, the reasons or the benefit, the wisdoms behind hijab, right, we forget that, actually, the main thing to mention is that it's a command of Allah, who loves

01:00:39--> 01:01:09

us, who wants what's best for us, everything he commanded us with, it's for our own good and everything he prohibited us from, it's because there's something harmful in it. Right? When that Lord of ours, who loves us so much and created us knows us inside out gives us a command. We we want to follow it properly, because we know that it pleases Him. And because it brings us success, right?

01:01:10--> 01:01:56

[Nuriddeen:] Right Subhanallah, we cannot lose sight of that at all. That's really number one, The reasons are valuable, because they can add to the strength of our conviction. But the first and most important reason is of course, obeying Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala. And that also plays into the reasons as well, because Allah knows whose creation better than we do. So we may say, Well, I should be able to do XYZ and not have this consequence. But Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala knows what's in people's hearts more than we do, he knows how people react to certain things more than we do. And he's in control of that behavior, not us. And so I think you're absolutely right, that if we keep that at

01:01:56--> 01:02:31

the forefront that we're striving for Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala, then hopefully, it will make that easier that it doesn't downplay the difficulty of wearing Hijab in the last, of course, it's difficult, but we can still strive for the sake of Allah and pray that Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala, gives us ease in that matter. [Fatima:] Yeah, InsyaAllah, and I think one of the important things in that regard is to be around the sort of people and the kind of environment that is conducive, right, and to make sure you have those spaces where you are supported in

01:02:32--> 01:02:36

obeying Allah and being around being in the sort of people who,

01:02:37--> 01:02:51

who remind you of Him, right. [Nuriddeen:] Mm hmm. Yeah, absolutely. And just to hone in on that point you mentioned again, it's interesting because if you lose sight of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala

01:02:52--> 01:03:35

you know, anything can become an idol and idols aren't just things that you know, people will build with their hands and worship, it's really anything that distracts us from a lot can be a smaller, very small shirt, or it can be a larger shirt, but still, these things that distract us from Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala and we, so it's like, we are creating this modesty thing as if it's for itself. So we're creating our own definitions of what modesty is and what Okay, and I think you're absolutely right that we have lost sight of this being for Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala. Because I do think that was at the forefront, we would probably make different decisions about how we choose to present

01:03:35--> 01:03:43

ourselves on social media, how we choose to sell modesty, quote, unquote, what we are okay, accepting.

01:03:44--> 01:04:28

It's another point that I just thought of is about hijab is kind of an interesting issue as well, because we've come we've become so focused on the scarf, right? So you wear whatever you want, and then you just slap a headscarf on. Whereas Islam talks about a more holistic modesty, right? Wearing a loose paid clothing and covering the you know, everything but your hands and your face. And that's how we're supposed to dress but the fixation on the hijab, and maybe in part because then it's sellable, right, in a capitalist society with something easy to been commodified and sell back to some women, but maybe having that more holistic

01:04:29--> 01:04:34

approach that which is the approach from Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala would also be helpful.

01:04:36--> 01:04:53

[Fatima:] Absolutely, and the I guess, the last thing I would say on that topic, and you know, please feel free to add is one of my teachers she said to me, you know, Fatima, never apologize for talking to people about the commands of Allah, you know,

01:04:55--> 01:04:59

about it, and, and that's why, you know, I don't think we should have any kind of reservation

01:05:00--> 01:05:10

In telling our sisters you know that the hijab does have conditions it is a command from Allah and Quran has conditions, and it's for our own good

01:05:11--> 01:05:22

in, in obeying Allah, every aspect of it needs to Allah has good that comes from it. That's one thing I want to mention. And the other thing is

01:05:23--> 01:05:25

political point, which is that

01:05:27--> 01:05:33

I don't think a lot of sisters realize that in the history of colonialism.

01:05:34--> 01:05:39

Hijab has been a symbol of

01:05:40--> 01:05:43

the colonialists power over

01:05:44--> 01:05:45

Muslims,

01:05:46--> 01:06:09

communities. And I mean, most poignantly, I think, the academic and historian Franz Fanon wrote about it when he wrote about Algeria, and the British, you know, colonized Algeria, and he talks about how the hijab was, you know, and the veil in general was kind of

01:06:10--> 01:06:26

a focus of the French colonialists. And then it was really a symbol of whether they had taken over that culture or not, right, and stripped those people of their, of their values.

01:06:27--> 01:06:33

And so that's why you know, Subhanallahh, what that kind of indicates to you is

01:06:34--> 01:07:22

that although the hijab isn't the be all and end all of what it is to be a Muslim woman, it is certainly, it is certainly a symbol of our adherence to the deen, right? Because it's a command in the Quran. It's one of the most kind of well known aspects I would say, of being a Muslim woman. And so even those who had tried to subjugate and tantalize Muslim communities and you know, literally stripped them of their values and cultures saw the importance of trying to influence Muslim women in particular. Right. And you know, if you want you can look up brothers and sisters the quote from friends Fallon's book, where he talks about how every veil that they were able to remove

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came off, because basically, they made they created a system where they incentivized Algerian women and their husbands to basically unveil and they created campaigns, advertising campaigns, right? targeted at Muslim women saying, on your beautiful, then why don't you unveiled right? And they try to influence and focus on the hijab when it came to Muslim women because they saw it as a symbol of their adherence to an attachment to Islam. [Nuriddeen:] Yeah, I think that is really valuable to think about this, this really good book by Rafia Zakaria called The Veil. She might be British, actually, I'm not sure. Um, but essentially, because it reminded me of a part in her book where she talks

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about

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more than to go into the haram. And to interview these women and take photographs of these unveiled women even. I think she goes by I don't know, I don't remember exactly. When she goes back to you. It was 1800s of before.

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You'll see these paintings, right of these Muslim women in a society with their kind of undress unveiled? And it was these Europeans who were able to get into these spaces and see the unveiling of Okay, how did these women look without the veil? But our thing as well, because, you know, sometimes I think, really, the hijab is not that interesting, in a sense, it's just a piece of cloth.

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But there's a power thing there there is a it's almost like how do we as women have the audacity to not care about fashion trends to not care about what is or isn't acceptable in the non Muslim society, to not want to unveil before them. And that's really powerful to think about as well. I also want to say, you know, because people will say,

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we talk too much about hijab, and I do think it is it just kind of remind of scholar and even the profits of you have to address issues that are relevant to the time right. So this happens to be an issue that is very relevant to our time, but most women were not struggling with modesty and it wasn't a big deal. We wouldn't talk about it. But it is an issue in our time. So it should be tough spoken about for that reason. It's relevant to what's happening.

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Just wanted to mention that because I'm sure that Allahua'lam may come up of Here we go again talking about hijab. I do, you know, as long as it's relevant then scholars, teachers, anyone at all should talk about it. [Fatima:] Yeah. And also, I think, anything, anything that is important Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala mentioned in the Quran, right? Anything that was, I mean, it was important enough for Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala to talk about in the Quran. So it's important enough for us to honor and talk about and, and I would say, not lose sight of the fact that like, as we mentioned earlier, you know, it is about our connection to Allah. And, you know, when you focus on Allah, and you make Allah

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your number one concern in terms of who you press, then Allah loves you, and which is the love that all of us are really yearning, right, deep down.

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And he makes the world Love you too, you know, you bring the world round, because I mean, I just remember moments in childhood, when at school, I would be the only hijabi and people would make fun of me, or make jokes about me, etc. And, you know, sometimes it was in good.

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You know, with good kind of spirit, I guess. But when my friends grew up, and we've all grown up now, some of them have contacted me and said, you know, we were we actually always used to admire you, you know, we are reaction

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to you what you were not under the pressure to, to kind of have to have a boyfriend and have to, like, do things that we weren't ready to go through, you know, but we were kind of pressured to go. And we kind of sometimes we think people are looking at us with a critical eye, but people have a fitrah inside, you know, and [Nuriddeen:] yes, no, that is, that's so it's true. And it's so crucial. Um, there's a book that we're reading in this class, I'm teaching it in July next month, this book, return to modesty. Maybe you've read that, but she speaks about how it is so difficult now. So return to modesty by Wendy shallot, she speaks about how it's so difficult for young women to refuse

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intercourse or sexual activity with young men. Because they don't have the backing of society. They don't, they can't even really say, Well, what will my parents think? because their parents are telling them all the way here, just be safe, here's all this stuff. Whereas for us as Muslims, all we have to do, we say I'm Muslim, and then we're free from all of that. And that's included in modesty if we choose that if we choose to be commodified with the rest of society, well, then we have the same pressures, but if we choose, we can say, Well, I'm modest, I'm hijabi I'm not interested in those things and also be ...

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Yeah, and, and not to forget that Insya-Allah Allah has put a system in place or our community hopefully has, has a system in place that will help you to InsyaAllah, find that partner, right, that person who you're going to marry, build a family with.

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And experience love, romance, all those things that that we will want, you know, especially when we're young,

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we dream of InsyaAllah, those things,

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those things like ahead of us InsyaAllah,

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we shouldn't feel that by going along with the popular culture, that's gonna be the right way to kind of attain those things. Right. [Nuriddeen:]Right. Right. [Fatima:] Yeah, and, and I think the other aspect of it is that, I guess, all of us, you know, have been on the journey when it comes to hijab, you know, we, we go through phases, we, sometimes we don't have knowledge, or we don't have the,

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the support, or sometimes we, you know, don't have the will, right. But we hopefully, you know, with sincerity with dua with a lot of dua asking Allah to make us stronger to help us to be able to do this. Having the right I guess, having a supportive group of friends and mentors.

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We, you know, so many sisters have made that decision and go forth, courageously and I just want to acknowledge all our sisters out there, you know, because I know that it isn't easy when all these industries are kind of

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putting so much pressure on us and making us kind of judge our own value on our outer appearance. And the whole of society is kind of gone along with that for so long.

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It is hard

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to, you know, go against the grain. But I guess that's what leadership is. Right? That's all right. That's what the believer has been charged with. Right?

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[Nuriddeen:] Absolutely. 100(%) I, you know,

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again, we want to do things solely for the sake of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala. But even I think slowly, we're seeing the wisdom of so many of these rules that maybe we think are so strict or whatever else. But we're, we're seeing the wisdom of them over time through what non Muslim women are dealing with so many of those issues we're free from as Muslim women. So Alhamdulillah, we should be grateful to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala and know that in striving, there is benefit both in this life and in the next Inshallah.

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[Fatima:] Inshallah, yeah, absolutely. So many new rules are coming into place now at work, you know, things like women are women are actually in Britain, there were women who actually say, you know, why do I have to wear heels to work?

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Why do I have to if I don't want to if they're painful, or, you know, and what, why does it matter that, you know, why don't have to be embraced at work,

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when they want there to be rules in place so that they don't have to have that kind of physical contact, you know.

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And in other places, there are new rules, for example, about not being in a room alone, right. And it's not like that. So.

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So I think, you know, and these are, some of these things are obviously Islamic as a high in the center, we've already been given those guidelines not to be in complete seclusion with the opposite sex,

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to have that kind of physical contact with a non mahram, etc. And those things are some of the things like you mentioned them, that society is realizing the benefits of actually, right. [Nuriddeen:] Yes, yes, exactly.

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[Fatima:] So Ustadza Nuriddeen, I really appreciate you giving us so much of your time. My last question to you is going to be that how are things in terms of, you know, lockdown, and stuff where you're at? And, you know, I just, I'm always interested to know, like, what's the latest like,

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things opened up now, things get even better if

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things have been very tough in America, because they're just the way that we functions. So different states doing different things. I was in New Jersey, but we're from New York.

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So there was a lockdown in New York, but then people are of course, suffering economically. So they try to lift the lockdown and just have social distancing. Of course, I'm sure everyone knows that our president called COVID. So there's a bit of a mix of people who are trying to be super cautious and people who aren't so cautious. But it has been I think, we've been relatively cautious and

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I do admit like Subhanallah, I've more recently felt the impact because I am more of a homebody and introverts, I don't go out that much. But now I'm starting to feel what probably a lot of other people felt sooner is this. It's kind of painful to not be able to just freely go outside and breathe in fresh air to have to wear these are the masks that you know, it's pretty tight on your face... I'm sorry,

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I was gonna say is actually much more comfortable. Because

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at the bottom you have this

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so you can actually breathe. Like I tried one of those face masks, actually.

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is actually less comfortable than a top right?

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[Nuriddeen:] Yes.

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Yes, sir. Pull out one of the cups and so it is more comfortable because the face mask is just completely on your face. It is kind of hard to read. So we're dealing with it and Subhanallah I just think about I don't think anyone thought it would last this long. So we're just all fatigued with the COVID and all we've had women are hoping and praying Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala will relieve us from this thing and allow us to go back to some sense of normalcy. Inshallah. [Fatima:] Inshallah. Jazakillahu Kayran, I'm the one one good thing that has come from this time is that I was able to speak to you because I've been when we were back in pre COVID time, we would wonder, wait, it seemed to

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come to London one day, and just happen to be able to book you and you know, the

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Much more than being able to meet in this way and I pray to Allah that He gives me the opportunity to meet you in person and Inshallah so

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I want to tell you that I love you for the sake of Allah

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and I really mean that because you know, like that's one of the blessings of Islam that you know we might not know somebody in person but because of their work because of their words because of that connection you have and you can see that it channel is somebody who fears Allah, somebody cares about Allah, you just feel

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Yes, yes, ma'am. Must Allah bless you and may Allah unite us in

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this life and if we don't get to meet in this life, maybe meet in Jannah Inshallah. [Nuriddeen:] Amin, Amin, InsyaAllah and may Allah bless you for writing your wonderful book as well. Brothers and sisters do you get it 40 hadith of Mother Aisha radhi Allahu-anha and with that, Inshallah I'm going to wrap up so Jazakillahu Kayran, was salaam aleikum wa rahmatullah wa barakato Ustadza Nuriddeen.

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[Nuriddeen:] Wa'alaikusamlam warahmatullahi wa barakatuh.

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so dear brothers and sisters. With that we wrap up another episode of the MV podcast. Do share this episode with others you know, maybe there are some sisters you know, who are struggling maybe some sisters who would like some, some clarity or some inspiration hopefully, my conversation with Ustadza Nuriddeen will inspire them and ignite something positive in them. Jazakumullahu khayran, do leave any comments, any suggestions for guests? For myself? In the comments below, and Inshallah with that I will bid you farewell. subhanakallahumma wa bihamdika asyhadu an la ilaha illa anta astaghfiruka wa atubu ilaik. wa salaam aleikum wa rahmatullah wa barakato.