ROMANCE, INTIMACY & EGOS The Peace of Cake Podcast & Abdul Haqq Baker
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Salam Alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh welcome back this week, brothers, sisters and guests, and you're in hopefully for another engaging.
Interesting session with him over there is to my right this time, please introduce yourself, bro. Yeah. Well, that's me I'm drinking green. And on the
on the corner there on the left on my left anyway and that is a Bill Baker and this.
This is a piece of cake piece of cake topic today. Rob, you chose it. So why it's fascinating. I thought yeah, this sounds a good one
in mind, and let's let's open up the conversation, romance, intimacy, and egos and why they come slammed her brothers and sisters are with us and guests who have joined us. And I thought about this following on from last week's conversation. And I thought and also because of the period of time of the year that is because
interestingly enough, I'll put it that way speaking, not elaborate in a bit. But we've seen across the Muslim world that we've fallen into sharing some of the ceremonies that the non Muslims have with regards to Valentine's and everything like that. And we've spoken so many things have been spoken about about that we're not going to get into that. But what we do actually need to look at is what is romance? What is intimacy? How much does the ego drive that especially for men? So for example, when when we talk about romance, how do you understand romance?
How do I understand romance? I guess romance I suppose I suppose romance? Is that exciting? Undeniably exciting. Personal of your you know, I suppose it's sexual, I suppose it is a sexual. But it may be much deeper than that. I think it's not, it's not definitely not just about sex, it's way more about a person who you really, I guess, connect with, right, and you want to connect deeper with them, you want to connect with them physically, not just, you know, you know, you know, be on the same wavelength. And the whole process where you are wooing that person where you are trying to, you know, that get that from a male's man's point of view? And I suppose it could, there's no way
why reason why it couldn't be the other way around. But I guess women pursue romance perhaps, in a different way from men. That I guess that's what it's about bra. I guess that's what it's about. For me. That's what romance is. And you know, men know that women like certain things, and they are attracted by certain things, and they're excited by certain things. And there's a certain way that you can behave as a man that is going to get that woman interested in you and excited about you and ready to give herself over to you. And I guess that's the I guess, in a sense, it's not just flirting, right? It's way it's beyond the flirting. It's the, it's, it's trying, I guess what it is
right? Ultimately, if I was going to sum it up, having said all of that stuff, making up as I go along, I think romance is the attempt to create love between you and a woman. That's what it is. You want to create love. That's, I guess that's what romance is apart from just you know, like, going out to have sex or something. Romance is deeper. Because without doubt, love is love is what is involved here. So yeah, that's what I guess that's what romance is about. It is trying to create love. That's an interesting perspective. And I think I'd agree agree with you to a larger extent. I'd also say because you're speaking about the preliminary stages of romance, that that the initial
stages of the man and a woman coming together and all meeting each other and everything. I'd also say that there's a continuity of that. Sure. Yeah. In the relationship in the sense that you're in love, okay. And romance is being in love loving an individual and being the best of you for that individual. And her being the best of you the best of her for you. Okay, and it's interesting because we say something romantic, you know, when she says, Oh, you're not romantic anymore. What she means is, you're not pursuing me you're not you're not doing those things that you did.
Before to get me understand like, of course that can and should go on throughout marriage, right? That's the same, he's saying the same. But you're not doing the same things for me I don't.
And I suppose that that can be true to an extent, they can also be pressure. Because that's you're getting to know each other as you're, as you're, once you're comfortable with each other, it doesn't mean you suddenly like, don't brush your teeth anymore, and all the bad habits that you may have had.
It doesn't mean that but it may mean that, okay, there's an element of trust, your guard is down, you can relax with that individual. But it doesn't mean that you start showing and displaying bad habits we see with Ali Raja who, when he used to come home to Fatima, he also made them always made sure he was his appearance and his attire was good. She was always doing likewise for him. And we have a narrations of the prophets, Islam and Aisha in that way. So I think romance is,
as you said, the initial stages and all of that taking place, but the continuity of that and even the elevating of that. So for example, I've dream many have the western concept of romance, we see all these movies and are you got the woman to tear jerker, and the women cry in the metaphor, like, I'm not like that, or even some of the men cry today. In some some occasions, not saying anything, anything wrong with that. But have we got our understanding of romance from that Western concept? And is it incorrect? And my thing would be yes, it is to an extent but not completely, because buying flowers for our partners,
buying gifts, buying chocolates, whispering sweet nothings into their ears. Having that meal ready for them. Like you said, last week was awful. It was brilliant. Cooking the dinner that's romantic, going into the kitchen, cooking the dinner wife put your feet up, you don't need I don't want you to be doing anything. If she's usually the one who's doing the cooking everything. I think that's romantic. But if we take it down the complete Western paradigm, that's incorrect. And why do I say that? We've got I'm gonna take, I'm gonna take a really quick superficial dive. It's not a diet, I'm going to sort of skim the surface of the history of romance, right. And so what is really, really
interesting here is no like, the classic the first the first, I guess, the first classic. So okay, romance, a lot of romance goes back to the medieval idea of chivalry. Yeah. And the first poem, the first chivalric poem is I think, as far as I know, the first one is certainly one of the most famous is called Shawn song, the row long, which is like the Song of Roland. Yeah. Now, what is really, really interesting, it's all these tales of knights, right? Knights who are basically Chevalier people, people who ride horses, right? Because they have to be of a certain level of landed gentry, in order to be able to keep horses to feed them, you have to have a certain amount of wealth. Not
anyone can have spare horses for warfare. Right? So, so that that ability to be a knight, and so but what is really interesting of the Huck roll, is the chivalric code actually came from the Muslims. Right? If you trace it back, like actually so many things, Brock was thinking about this. Yeah, there are so many things in the West, right. It's so interesting seeing now, you know, these truckers in Canada, you know, standing up for freedom, and it would have been nice to see them doing the same when, you know, Native Americans were being, you know, all the terrible things that happened to them, you know, in the last 5060 100 150 years, you know, but, but anyway, let's put
that aside. Yeah. what comes around goes around chickens come home to roosters. And it really isn't it broke. It really is all that tyranny that has been handed out to the countries and nations across the planet is coming home. But the point being is even this idea of freedom, this this idea of freedom that we have of personal freedom. Now compare that to the medieval attitude that most people were serfs, right? You had a few lords of the manor, right? Which today, the technocrats and the politicians and the billionaires, right, they just, they just want to go back to that flippin old feudalism, and the rest of the serfs. Now serfs were really strange. They weren't really slaves.
Yeah. Because they could own property. And they weren't. They weren't technically owned by their Lord, but they weren't free to go anywhere else
on the land, right, so they couldn't go and work for another Lord. They couldn't travel that they couldn't even marry their daughters without their Lord's permission. I want you to compare that to the Muslim world. I want you can compare that to what the prophet man
hammered and what Islam came with, can you imagine? Right? No one had to give us permission. Right? In the time of the prophet in the lands of Islam to marry their daughter or who they wanted to marry. Everyone was considered the same, whether you're white, whether you are black as the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam said, yeah, there is no difference between, you know, the Arab and the non Arab, the white and the black, accepting Taqwa this idea that the only thing that distinguishes you is piety, your knowledge, no one is better because of their birthright because they were born into a certain tribe. This came from Islam told me any other civilization that had an idea so
clearly, right, that every individual was basically fundamentally the same. It wasn't Christendom, I mean, Christians can claim whatever they like, Yeah, but it did not exist in Christianity. It did not exist in Chris Christendom, it did not right. So it's very interesting, this idea of freedom. And even this idea of Now initially, bro, the initially the romantic idea was altruistic, it was this idea that you could love somebody, but when it's not sexual, you could love a woman, right? A man could love a woman. But it was a purely altruistic love. So often, the knight would, he would love the Queen, or he would love maybe he would love the Queen, right? But it was purely altruistic.
He loved her because she was a thing of beauty of purity, whatever, right? And I don't know if I'm not sure about the connections of it, maybe to marry and whatever, right. But the point is, it's supposed to be altruistic but interesting, Ebro, right? This type of chivalric behavior. I remember, do you remember this hadith, where there was a woman who was traveling? And on the way she, she ended up traveling with some companions of the Prophet? Yeah. And she said, she had never felt so safe. She had never felt so respected. Yeah, they didn't even look up at her, you know, whatever. They just treated her with so much respect. She was so impressed, by the way that the Muslims
Subhanallah behaved, right? And this whole idea of respecting women, and look how that we've said this again, and again, look how the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam was really his wives, you know, for the way that people accuse Islam and Muslims of being, you know, misogynistic, and women hating. It's absurd. When you put the life of the prophet in the cot sallallahu alayhi wa sallam in the context of the world at the time, show me anything like it, show me who treats women like that show me in Greek society, show me and Roman society, show me in the world of Christendom before the advent of Islam, this idea, right, that even remotely approached the idea of equality that we have,
you know, that is there in Islam that we have in Islam. Now, when I say equality, right? Under the law, it doesn't mean that men and women are not different. And they have different natures and different roles. That's a different thing. So I think it all comes, I don't think the Western idea of Romans bro is actually as alien as you think. Because you may find that many of its, you know, roots actually come from Islam. That's what I was leading to. And you're absolutely right. That's why I'm glad you've brought all of that in that context, because we've seen recently, was it in South Korea? Or was it Thailand? Somewhere, that the royalty fell in love with?
Common, and had to give up a crown from Crown look at George, he had to give up.
The thing with Mrs. Simpson,
Edward, Ed was,
yeah, had to give up his title because of since Mrs. Simpson, we see all of that taken us up. That just reinforces what you're saying there. But on from the Islamic perspective, you're absolutely right. I think that the world has borrowed and looked at the chivalry and the romance that's there in Islam, we see the examples of the prophets lie Selim, when Mary and Aisha and drinking, making sure his lips touched the same part of the glass of milk that she had, she had drank and everything. We see these little details when you think about that, and we're going to touch upon intimacy as we go through. But when you said yes, the Japanese Princess thank you and Isa and while they can salaam
to you, and all of you Malahat level at a rock, the apex predator, all of you sent your salaams masala near yet near Yama. When you look at all of that, and you see there are intricate moments and I'm going to say this up to him because we talked about you and we talked about this many years ago. And I remember us being in hysterics and we I think was in Bradford on a way to a talk and everything and we were talking about the intimate moment when
You are not left, we're not going to be shy here. The Profit System wasn't shy at the point of intimacy entering your wife, saying, do our two
O's on this at the moment, and some are going, yes. Abderrahim and I will talk about everything and anything because Islam allows us to. Now listen, I would ask this question, okay, and I don't want anyone to answer it. They don't need to, like you said, is there any way or any way of life or religion that compares to Islam? Is there any faith that says, at this point in time, this point of intimacy? Yeah, you are entering that you're, you're embracing your wife in the most intimate of moments that we are told by our profit and loss limb to say this, do our
protect any progeny that Allah may have decreed will come from Shaytaan? Yep. There's no, there's no way of life now. Others what we do know from what we see about from the movies, not that we watch those movies, but what we hear is you'll hear groans, Grunt, screams, and, and everything else being said at that particular point. But and I'm not saying that that's wrong, because that can happen when you're in passionate, whatever is happening with you at that moment. But to say that supplication at that point, and imagine the intimacy that's there between you and the wife at that point that she's hearing you say or do are as you are, in that moment of utmost intimacy, where you
are both embraced and interlocked in such a passionate embrace, that you are calling upon Allah with a dua Yeah. And like some scholars mentioned, they talked about this, like what is more, you know, befitting that you should call upon Allah in this moment of, you know, complete ecstasy and enjoyment like what why what, what is wrong with that? Right, what would be more appropriate to call upon Allah at such you know, at such a time as your, as you're experiencing such incredible pleasure? Why would you not be grateful to Allah? Why would you not think Allah, why would you not call upon Allah and remember him? Because we don't have you know, this is the thing is that, you
know, it's, there's so almost so few if any sexual hang ups, you know, in Islam, I mean, it's literally, the only thing is two things, I guess, you know, anal intercourse. And you know, and having sex during menstruation pretty much everything else. There is no, you know, there is nothing clear, right? Yeah, some scholars will say this and that and but they will debate about it, which means there's no clear statement, right? Yeah. Yes. There's something clear about England Of course, prohibiting it. Yes. It's very clear about not having sex during menstruation. Right. That's very clear. Right. And also in the woman's bleeding after childbirth. But apart from that, nothing,
right. It Like It's, it's an open book, right? It's like, okay, some scholars will say various, you know, they will talk about various things. But there's no, you know, there's no, you know, missionary position or whatever like that. And it's just like this, it's an it's an open, it's, it's a hello out and this is the point I wanted to make this mention this hadith, right? It is a halau source of pleasure and enjoyment. So when the Prophet salallahu alayhi wa sallam, he mentioned that you will get rewarded for having sex with your spouse, right? Right. And they said, O Messenger of Allah, we get rewarded, you get rewarded, right? A woman gets rewarded.
We get rewarded for that. The Prophet said, if you did it in a haram way, wouldn't you get punished? Yes, right. SubhanAllah. So I don't want everyone to get carried away now. And like think that you can just non stop,
obviously, but you can balance there's a balance in everything in life.
that, as you said, even that hadith is tremendous that
this is something you get rewarded for this, this level of intimacy that you're having with your partner is in while it's pleasurable to you, you've been rewarded for it, we get rewarded for acts of worship. So there's no other way of life. There's this there's no other religion that provides this wealth of guidance, even in the most intimate of ways. So in that sense, there remember, but we've got, as you said, there's a balance there cannot be men. Okay, who we've heard the other narrations like you you beat your wife and you treat her with aggression and everything. And then you want to get your passion, release your passion from forget that from her in that way. This this
is something that is frowned upon. This is something that is is not allowed. Not I wouldn't say haram. I don't know about the thing, but it's something that shouldn't be done. It's frowned upon. And no man should
feel that way, and even a woman as well, because the women know, with men, this is and it's for women as well. But it's a huge weakness for men in this in this instance, whereby the woman can treat him mean to keep him keen, and then suddenly open up to him in the evening after being so horrible to him. And he's weak. And he succumbs, because he's talking about since wimps or whatever from last week. So those those are things that we need to look
like if they like it, and it turns them on, and it gets them excited. Who Who are we to judge?
may not be ideal, but you know, I don't want to be too
restrictive to like, bro. I, you know, people, I don't know, some women like to be dominant. And they like to be you know, they like to be the query that
doesn't mind. You know, like, that's it, we're not going to say, Okay, we may feel that. That's not you know, you like you and me last week, we obviously didn't feel comfortable with it personally. But you know, like,
I don't mind sometimes I'd say as as a man, if you've got if you're, as I said, if you if you've got no inhibitions in yourself, you're comfortable, you're confident in yourself and whatever, then no problem is, if you've got as we're going to be talking about ego issues as well, you understand what I'm saying? If the if you're with your wife, and she wants to be a bit dominant on occasion, if the man's like, no, it's got to be this way, and everything like that. Is it your ego to speak into now? And if it's your ego speaking to you, what preconceptions Do you have a regard your own sexuality and that of your wives in this occasion, this example that we're giving, but what I'm saying here,
abdur-rahim, throughout that seed in their most intimate moments, succeeding the most intimate moments, the romantic approach is something that it should become, in some examples, or circumstances, effortless, but there are some of us, for us who do not do romance very comfortably. And that's understandable. We're all different. But I think Well, listen, I think this I think, I think this topic is important. And I think it's important when we talk about the female orgasm, which a lot of people might be shy talking about, but Subhan Allah the Prophet salallahu Alaihe Salam, right. He did, you know, like, According to some scholars role is a man should not leave his
wife until she has had an orgasm. She's had a climax, right? And that's one interpretation of what the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam has said, Now, like, it's interesting that, you know, that generally women,
you know, from what I've read, and what I've studied, generally women, you know, if they, they will, they're more likely to climax and orgasm, when they feel very, when they are in a trusting situation with the with their husband or their man, they feel very relaxed. Like if they've got a lot of mental tension, if they got a lot of physical tension, it's going to be like the same with a man to be honest. Right? Right. It's the same with anybody, right? If you're if you're really, really, maybe with women, like men, I guess, like, generally, you know, they orgasm much more easily and spontaneously with women. It's apparently I have no idea, obviously, because I'm not a woman. But
it's, you know, it's perhaps a little bit more certainly more complex and certainly takes time. Sure. But it goes back to that it goes back to the two things actually, that you raise brother romance, therefore, the importance of romance, right. And that whole romance is maybe a really, really important part of, you know, just paving the way to make that intimate moment, just that much more pleasurable for both of you. That's the first thing. And the second thing ego is that this is the other thing that you know, again, that's a huge topic of conversation, not particularly in my conversation, but you do read about it a lot. is, you know, women faking orgasms now, why do they do
that? Why do they feel the need to do that? And that goes back to the old ego, bro. It's stoking the male ego as if he's supposed to, you know, feel that he's done something amazing. Why, why would they need to do something? Why does a man feel that he needs to have accomplished that? That's a whole big discussion, isn't it really? And what's your think of thoughts on it? Rob? I think that's excellent that we're moving on to that point. And I want to move back a bit. Yeah. Niyama ego does destroy marriages and a lot of men lot of us are egotistical. But then part of that as well. That ego prevents it from it restricts the man from actually knowing about his wife and what pleases us.
So up to humans, we're talking as you said, the female orgasm is a lot longer and harder to achieve than men do.
by Maxine and having an orgasm, it comes a lot more quickly. And we know that we've many men after the point of climax, a lot of men do not have the energy or the concern to continue to please their wives to the extent they need to please them. But also on top of that, Abderrahim don't do men know that there are more than one type of orgasm for the women not necessarily solely for us. It's quite straightforward. There's the vaginal orgasm, there's the clitoral orgasm. Do men know that do men take time to know about their wives bodies and, and the G spot as we're saying and basically to take that time that okay, I can't, I can't, I can't I can't make her orgasm in this way. But I'm going to
take more time in that way. Or in the case maybe some men take the time with the wives feel both the orgasms the Multiple Orgasm, which is which is something that women achieve? How many of us spend time really concentrating on our wives? Having that? That level of pleasure, both types of orgasm? Here's an interesting
thing at the same time. Before we before we Yeah, no, it's our climax in orgasms. And how many of us do that?
Well, they should I think it's really, really, really important. I mean, you know, I'm not the one to hand out advice on sex and stuff like that.
Well, I mean, you know, I could, but I don't know, I think everyone to their own, they have to figure it out for themselves. But, you know, generally, like, you know, I think not generally but like, I'm sure for a lot of men, that once they've climax, it's going to be quite hard for them to you know, like, Jen, a lot of the time men will have their orgasm, and that's it, and they just want to just chill out, you know, they might even literally, they might even go somewhere else. Because it's like, you know,
for too long.
We had this discussion, didn't we? Right? Remember, we had this discussion previously, right? About men going to their caves and wanting to be on their own? And you know, like that. And what does it mean when, like, the whole feeling that, you know, when when a man has had an orgasm, the woman has, like, in a sense captured him, right? He's Brian, the state of like, just being completely. You know, she's in a sense, he's under her power. Right? We had this discussion before we had
discussion, right, which is another reason why a man may just want to go to his cave, you may not want to snuggle up and lie and whatever. But the point here is interesting. Something interesting. Brian just quickly Googled while we were talking. Yeah. A study in 2009 found that 25% of men
and 50% of women pretended to reach orgasm. How can a man pretend to reach orgasm?
It's a clear result. He's a clear result.
I guess I guess you can write. You can. That's crazy. Yeah, that's the first time I've heard that a man a man can 25 That's not even a small number. Right?
Why, as I said, for the man, it's very, very clear. For the woman. Yes, she can she can fake something. Also at the same time, that if the man knows his wife, and he knows and I'm when I say knows her, he knows that intimately. He knows what bodily responses and reactions, he will know. When she's reaching climax, he will know Okay, and I'm not going to obviously elaborate too much upon that. But he will know yesterday Yama. I'm wondering how can a man fake orgasms? It's very
Apparently not. Obviously, if he's wearing a condom, it's going to be quite relatively easy to fake it with True, true. So yeah, and like, you know, any man may not necessarily ejaculation a huge amount of semen. Like sometimes if you're having multiple you know, your as the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam he said, for example, and I know this sounds like a really intimate conversation. But this is not something alien to Islam, the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, he said, right? If you haven't satisfied your wife, go and wash yourself go and have a shower.
Right and get back to it. This is what the prophets will do. Go back, go make me do washes. They come back and that reinvigorates you.
So like so a man it is possible for for a man to have multiple, you know, have you know sex multiple times one after the other? But I mean, presumably each time he's going to, you know, he's going to ejaculates a lot less so he could still men can have orgasms without ejaculating as well. This is a whole thing if you study tantric sex, which I did a little bit before I was Muslim, by the way, right? Yeah, then yeah, this there's the whole
All thing in tantric sex of reaching orgasm without ejaculating, right? And in fact, they have a whole. They have a whole criticism of actually ejaculating. They call it sneezing. Yeah, it's like you know what you just sneezing, right? It's like, you can actually re reach a sort of orgasmic state for for huge amounts of time hours, even right? Without actually ejaculating. So it's like, it's that it's the actual mental state of being in the state of having that, you know, that explosive state in your mind with actually even ejaculating? So, I suppose again, the point, it sort of depends what we define as an orgasm. Right? And I guess, again, for women. Intuitively, it's more
complex for them. They have different levels of orgasms, they can have multiple orgasms. Again, maybe an orgasm tends to be, you know, maybe a more I think, for both men and women, it is a mental thing as well. It's not just a physical occurrence, isn't it? Is it right? The important thing there in all, in everything we're discussing now, is that the romance is a key factor to this. And if there's that chemistry, if there's that synergy, achieving that orgasmic state for both of them is a lot more easier, it's a lot more achievable. However, if the performance is by the male, and we have to say, from them women in this occasion, for ego, to look a particular way to come across a
particular way, then the ego will destroy all of that. And what you're having an actual actuality is just a physical act of sex, okay, and the fulfillment, we need the physical fulfillment. But we want to make sure that we're achieving that that harmony, because we've talked about the spiritual side, when we make that work, then everything we want to achieve complete harmony from the spiritual, physical and mental levels, that one time with our spouse. Now, let's be honest, that's not going to happen every time the mailman exhausted work, stress, and not be able to perform as he would would like the woman may be stressed on another occasion, and not be able to perform or respond particular
time. And that happens frequently between couples. But that shouldn't be looked at as there's a problem. As long as you know, around that there's that romance around intimacy around that, and the words that you're exchanging are intimate as well. I'm coming back to that wanting to go back to your cave very quickly.
Because we talked about, there's a lot of discussion about foreplay, and foreplay can be buying the flowers and the grounds and really showing them showing you she's into you and everything. But one thing that I think men fall down on, based on what we're discussing now, is that after the play, okay, the woman may still be around, she may not be she may be totally, I've used the term exhausted Sasha, what's happened, but she still wants to touch she still wants to cuddle, she's still wanting to stroke, she still wants to do the same thing. And many men are just not into that. afterwards. Even the snuggling up. And I think that's something that men need to be looking at as well that
okay, this is still something that my wife requires, okay, she wants she desires, we should still do that apex is coming with some some good advice about eating vitamin DS and
seasons in more than AP spreads, we're going to ask you to give a prescription there in the end. So everywhere, all the men who are looking can do this as well. And if it's anything for sisters, you need to put that up on your sisters can. But seriously Abderrahim I think the contributions our brothers and sisters are making are brilliant, as usual. But I think that after play, is something that's there. I think this is from a point of ego. And one of the things that men are known for, and I know from before becoming a muslim, after the event, the women do it as well, but men more so to an extent from what I've experienced in speaking to people, they could just be back up close on like
nothing's happened. And the wife or the woman is looking for that, that connection because of the level of intimacy that was there before. And I think it is a natural thing from the man that he doesn't want to show that intimacy because sometimes when you've well often when you've been intimate before Islam, talks specifically about Islam, the person that your wife, the female has taken something for years. I mean, we spoke about before
the level of vulnerability that has been showed revealed from the husband to the wife, from the wife to the husband, even in Jamelia, and that's why you see sometimes the very big
Tough, vitriolic, horrible things that happen, not only in this film I've seen when the husband and wife are falling apart, but you see that the venom and
the things that are put out on the internet and the expose ease and everything like that this very sensitive that has taken place in that exchange at that time, hence,
extramarital sex or illicit intercourse taking place outside the relationship is such a forbidden thing is this is the coming together of a man woman in this way. Okay. It's so intimate, that it has psychological,
spiritual impact, let alone the physical impact. Yeah, for sure. I think you're absolutely right, Brian, I think it is a very deeply profound spiritual thing. And I think the reason Allah has made it like that is I think, I don't know if we've had this discussion before. But you know, my, from my studies, and I did a whole sort of personal study about this thing, because I was very curious, like, what do they say, from an evolutionary point of view? Why is sex so pleasurable? I wanted to see what would their theories were right? Because obviously, for many animals, it's not they're just driven by instinct. I mean, they some animals die after sex, right? And so there's no evidence that
certain animals even find any pleasure. They're just driven by instinct. But why do human beings find it so pleasurable? And I think the most convincing thing that I came across was bonding, the bonding theory, is that the idea? Is that actually the pleasure of sex bonds the couple, right? And for me, that makes perfect sense. And it fits with the Islamic paradigm. Exactly. And that also why we shouldn't have sex outside of marriage, why we shouldn't have extramarital sex, because, like you said, bro, it comes with a whole series of spiritual and mental complications, that when you have that extremely intimate, you know, connection with another human being, and then that person is
gone. And that person is just out of your life, and you don't see them again, what does that do to you psychologically? Right? How do you then bond intimately with someone right, like, meaning sex, part of the problem is, it becomes less and less effective as a bonding mechanism? Right? So when you do get married, and you do have sex, it's not that effective as it should be. Because you you've been so used to, you know, having sex with everybody, it really destroys. And what, then you go back to why do we have you know, the family is the the foundation of society and when the family disintegrate, society disintegrates? Right. So it's like, it's not a small thing? No, it's just one
thing I was gonna say, and maybe you can comment on it, and trying what you think, right? Because one thing, I want all the listeners that this is just my advice, I really, you know, I don't want anyone who's listening, especially maybe someone who's a bit younger, or it doesn't matter anyway. But I think one thing is, don't have hang ups about sex, right? The first thing is just try to don't don't do this thing is to be thinking, Oh, I should be doing this. And I should be doing that. And, you know, I'm so inadequate, because I'm not this. And on the other, you know, like, in the sense that, you know, and one brother mentioned about pornography, and getting all his information from
pornography. And like, obviously, if that's the sort of source that you're getting your idea of what you think sex is, you are going to always feel that you are just nothing, right? That whatever you're doing is just the load of, it's just the you're never going to feel you're actually a real man or a real woman. So like, right, that's things. The thing is, the best thing is to do is not have hang ups, right. That's the first thing. And my second piece of advice, right? For everybody is be more concerned with your partner's pleasure than your own pleasure. Right? Exactly. Believe me 100% You will find that the most pleasurable thing and honestly from that more the monster rousing.
You're right, the monster, it's the most arousing, most stimulating, and we spoke about this point before. That attention to detail, we think about it, I don't want to put this rule. If you're watching porn, and you're getting stimulated by watching porn, because of what you're seeing happening and everything like that. Why are you doing that? Get the stimuli by knowing every inch of your partner's body and what arouses them, and pay attention to that and for sure, you will be getting aroused in yourself. Okay, so what you're saying is spot on agreement. The Shaq show said something very briefly. No, we're not attacking men Shaq, we're not talking against men. We're
saying As men, we need to be more responsible. Nate mentioned an earlier thing and what he's saying here Good, very good point. They thank you for empty and lost when only dependent on pornography, thank you for being open with us and sharing that night and and may Allah reward you for bringing that forward because, yes,
transfer that to your partner.
and watch the level of stimuli that you will get it's there's nothing like it, you can't be looking at something on a screen or desiring something or someone that's nowhere to be seen or to be found, than when you're with your partner. And when and for women as well, because we know sisters, women, your desires are very, very strong, the same thing, getting to know each other,
very, very intimately, and trust in your partner, your husband, your wife, with every inch of you, for them to explore, for them to enjoy for you to enjoy. This is so so important after him. And I don't know that I'm sure there are other podcasts and everything talking about these things. I don't know how many Muslims talk about these things. But I think it's really important that we do discuss this. And again, we should not use sex as a reward punishment tool, sisters, for your husbands, Husbands for your for your your wives, it shouldn't be a punishment reward thing, knowing that maybe one of the partners one one spouse is much more akin or tuned, should I say to sexual intimacy, and
you use that against her. When you use that against him, you you play with them regarding that, because that will have psychological effects that will also have physical effects. Che Tom will be whispering there as well remember, let's go back to that shaytan does not leave the throne that he sits on, which is above water, except when another share team comes to him and says I've separated a man from his wife, okay, and he gets up off his phone and he embraces that that that devil as this now you've succeeded. When we look at the story of her route, while my route the two angels who came to test Bani Israel and the stories during a Bakra. What was the thing that the angels gave them?
The ability to do telling them that this was
a test to them, and they shouldn't follow it. They were learning how to separate a man from his wife. Yeah. And what was the reason Abdur Rahim and we saw when we look at some of the tasks here, when we look back at some of the reasons, so that the when the wife is separated from her husband, people still even do it today, so that they can get that woman so they can get him they only want her sexually. And when she separates from her husband and go into this individual who she has an interest in. It's all couched in righteousness and everything like that. But all in actuality, what's at the core of it is sexual relationships, sexual intimacy. So we need to be very, very
careful with this whole thing of romance. Some, unfortunately, some some brothers who may be married some sisters who are going through problems, or vice versa, and the language may change and it may be inappropriate, and it may be romantic. And then you the, the husband, yes, we can have more than one wife, we might think not only will we divorce her first wife if we're going to still have problems with her, but we're going to marry someone else, believing that we're here in religious
exchanges, but those religious exchanges really have a cover.
And underneath it is this romantic drive this intimacy that's there, which is impermissible. And this is why we've got to be very careful when we're engaging with the opposite sex because the Prophet SAW said we saw Allah says in surah Zab with regards to the wives of the Prophet SAW Selim, that they should not speak with other men except from behind a veil. Okay, unless whose heart there is a disease will be inclined in that way. So all of these things over him if we're looking in our relationships, and we're preserving these particular aspects, okay, we're preserving these particular aspects of the man's desire, the woman's desire, and they that starts not just physically
it starts spiritually, it starts mentally, that whole romance intimacy, in with the absence of ego is such a powerful force. That as someone asking early one, you can be in your older ages. And what we will find in your seat Hamdulillah I believe it's the case with myself, I'm not 70 at hand, and I'm not close to it. But you're you remain not only loving your wife, and her loving you, you remain in love, the intensity of the love that you have later on, is so much more profound, like Abderrahim used to be your wife can give you a look in your melt like oh my gosh, don't look at me like that. I'm doing a public lecture. Now. We're out in public and she gives you a look. You know what that
looks means? You give her a little you squeeze her hand she squeezes your hand you walk after in the kitchen, and you blow on her neck or you whisper something to this is the level of intimacy and romance that can continue right through into old age. Those couples that are
70 and beyond, okay, why do some younger men marry older women, because the older women know how to love. They don't have maybe they've got age, but they know how to love. Again, I think, you know, I guess that
sometimes we can look at other people in their cultures and the way they are. And, you know, it's just a possibility. I'm not saying you are like that, or I am like that, or maybe I have been like that, what maybe I still am like that. And just sort of,
I mean, I'll be honest, like, I came from a family where, you know, we were very affectionate, you know, we, you know, I hug my dad, I hug my mom, you know, like, we were very, you know, close like that. We're very affectionate family. Yeah, I've seen, you know, other families where there's nothing like that, right? Like, never, like, never kissing one's dad or hugging one's Mum, you know, like, and it's a strange thing, you know, like, you know, you know, like, very, very strange thing, this lack of, like, physical affection. But at the end of the day, it's like, it's not like we need to, you know, give anyone complexes, like, as long as I guess, as long as the love is there, and the
affection is there. And ultimately, as long as the relationship is functioning, you know, people are always going to have different ways of expressing it. And I think the other thing is that I always think it's important to say is that, look, people have various levels of sexual drive, right? Both men and women by the Right, right. No one needs to feel that. Because you don't feel like having sex five times a day, there's something wrong with you. Right? Right. Yeah, no one needs to feel like that. However, look, if you are married to someone who has that strong physical desire, then you know you are you do need to meet that person's needs, that is really, really important. And you
know, it may be like, it may be like cooking food for someone that you can't stand, but you cook it for them, because you love them and you want to make them happy, or whatever thing it may be. But at the end of the day, Look, the bottom line is anybody who has a strong libido, and is not having that desire met at home sooner or later, they're gonna find another way to do it, whether it's pornography, or whether it's having affairs, or you know,
you know, whatever it is, right. I think that is important. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you, because you don't feel like that. But if you are with a partner like that, it's very, very important. I mean, and this is for men and women. I'm not just saying it's a one way street here, it goes both ways. Absolutely. You know,
and I guess in very few people, if anybody would have those type of conversations before they got get married, sometimes that's only something that you find out afterwards, you know,
but yeah, at the end of the day, you know, the purpose of this conversation is not to make anyone feel bad about the way they are or their particular culture, because people may express things culturally, really, really differently, which is okay, which is okay. Yeah, I mean, it's okay. As long as it's based on love and affection, you know, like, we do have to remember, remember that it's not all okay, because a man came to the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam. And, you know, he saw the Prophet kissing our, I don't know, if it was Hassanein Hussein, you know, giving him kisses and stuff like a grandfather does to his grandchildren. And this man said, We never I've never kissed my
children. Right? And the Prophet did not say, yeah, that's okay. You know, as long as he showed them love and affection in different ways. He didn't know, the Prophet said, How will Allah have mercy on someone who has no mercy? Right? Right, right. So I don't you know, on the other hand, we don't want to be, you know, we don't want to we don't want to try and shove our culture on other people, right? Or say, Yeah, we're some but we do have a criterion and the criterion is the Quran and the Sunnah the criterion is, you know, things the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam said, If this is what the Prophet said, about, you know, showing affection to your grandchildren, how about your wife? Right?
Is it really, you know, really, you think you can be married and not show that up? Okay, maybe you don't need to do it in front of others. And I can totally understand in some cultures
in front of others is considered totally inappropriate. And that's beautiful. Why not shyness, that shyness. And that's all good. Shyness is all good. Yeah. But if that's really how you behave when you're alone, you're exactly the same. You know, and it's like, like, mechanical Yeah, that's right. Dark, you know, once in a while, you know, and that's what you think is showing affection. And you know, how will Allah have mercy to someone who has no mercy because this kissing and this hugging and this physical contact and like we
This whole thing about foreplay and you know, and getting your wife to have, you know, to climax. This is part of Islam. This is part of being a Muslim. This is part of how you're supposed to behave as a Muslim. Right? And if you're not doing those types of things, yes, there is something I'm sorry. There is something wrong with you. Yeah. And there's something wrong with your deen. You're not following the Sunnah. You can have a nice big beard and octopi and Thoburn. You can you can whatever and have a turban and everything you like. That's not some that anyway. That's not something as soon as the dress the way your people dress, as long as it's not Shirky. Or I'm sorry.
There's no Islamic dress anyway. Right? You're just pretending? Yeah, you just got that. You just got the outer pretense of Islam. Right? How about the o'clock? How about the other? Yeah. It's like, I remember the story once of a brother walking out with some, you know, Molana, right? Who saw some like insect who, or some bird or something, and he just crushed under his foot. Right? And the brothers like, what are you doing? This is one of those creatures, you said, How dare you talk to me? I know what I'm doing. You know, who are you to even talk to me? I thought Subhanallah that that's, that tells us all we need to know about the state here. of you know, the so many of the so
called religious people today, right?
You know, all, you know, beards and turbans on the outside. But where is that where's the o'clock where's the other was the Sunnah of the Prophet in the ways of intimacy with the families with love. Yeah, but also him on that point, because I care for bringing that. So that's one side of the cultural aspect, which I think is really important that you highlighted that. Also what we got to understand. And sometimes this is frowned upon. And it doesn't mean it's a problem. We spoken about wives, maybe husbands with high libido, and sex drives and everything. Not going to talk about that as much. But it's all right to be intensely in love to have in as long as it's not shook to be
intense in your relationship. Some some women, some women love to be intensely loved by their husband, some men, some men are very intense in their love, they will not let you know that this man is in love with this woman. There's the intensity, and I don't mean obsession, I mean that basically you're showing an intensity. And the woman not only feels validated, the woman feels desire, she feels wanted, she feels needed. And he's not doing that, because he's wants her to feel all of those ways. But he's like, This is who you are, to me, this is how you make me feel. And the woman sometimes does that with the is like that often is like that with the husband. Now, the other part
the other, the husband or the wife receiving that level of intensity, may like it, sometimes they may not like it, they may think it's too much. But what we've got to understand is that if you'll be in love that much, don't push it away. Maybe it's too intense for you, but just acknowledge it, absorb it, and be grateful to Allah that you've got a man, you've got a woman into you that much that they like, and it's not shook. It's just like, This is how I love all
you come home.
Listen, is something you often hear people say, Yeah, the thing you are complaining about? Right? Is the very thing that someone would give their life to have. Exactly. This is the weird thing about human beings. Right? You're complaining about this man who is intensely in love with you? Right? And he's just crazy about you and do anything for you. Right? And you're complaining about, you know, what a simpIe is or whatever? I don't know, right? You know, and yet there are women, right? Who had give their lives just to have a minute or two of that type of attention and love and affection. And this is just unfortunately, I mean, I'm not just picking on women and you know what I mean? This
could apply to this applies to most of us. We complain about stuff, right? You know, women you know, we complain about kids yeah, all the flippin kids that the flipping kids this their whatever, that and you know what, how many people in this world would give their life and everything they had to have a kid doing anything, they wouldn't even care, right? And you're complaining, right? And we could go on and on and on about so many blessings that Allah has given us in our life that we turn into a source of complaint and it's exactly one of those things that you said right now I'm learning from you're giving me some good reminders here as well. masala and not that's sort of my thing is
brothers, sisters, non Muslims, you might be married or they may be Muslim.
A Muslim woman of non Muslim woman's mighty Muslim manner if you see the intensity that we love with what to read, this is why
I may want to be loved a particular way.
And I haven't conveyed that to my wife and she
is loving me in a way that she knows how, yep, we need to communicate, to show that and that's even at the most intimate level, you may not like a particular physical act, or touch or whatever, when you're in the bedroom or, and let's be frank, it's not always in the bedroom. And we talked about the missionary position being one thing, and in their warehouse,
wherever they are on on the panel or in the car, anywhere, anywhere
inside row, you know, you should respond to your husband, even if it's in the kitchen, or even if your or your wife or your wife.
Generally, exactly. So that's important. So if we are not communicating, and sometimes maybe it's cultural as well, and I'm not frowning upon that, but the physical act in exchange is just that it's just physical. What about the conversation? What about what you like? What about you don't say, Oh, I don't like that. But maybe you say, if you do it this way, or even guiding them during the intimacy, so they can see the hands being guided, or whatever. And you're, they're realizing she likes this, she's showing me even sisters, even if you're feeling shy in the passion, the heat of passion, there should be no shyness in that, in those. On those occasions, men, there should be no
shyness on those occasions, we need if we communicate as we speak now, abdur-rahim? Yeah, if you're a various
avenues of communication, sexual intimacy is the peak of communication. And we need to make sure that we are communicating with each other properly. So coming back to what I started with, we may not love our spouse in the way they want to be loved. Okay, we need to learn that, but a spouse also needs to know how they want to be loved, and that it brings the best out of them not just in the intimacy, generally, okay, we need to communicate that to keep the relationship going, we need to keep the communication going. And as I said, it's not just about the intimacy in the bedroom, wherever it's to be, it's about everything, I think you might have
a gift that he keeps buying, but you don't want to say anything to hurt his feelings.
Communicate, this is really nice. That would be nice as well, as long as it's like, okay, this is 1000 pounds, and that's 10,000 pounds. And you know, that's beyond the budget, and it's not a things generally, don't you think, bro, that one thing will follow the other in the sense that if in your relationship, you communicate well, and you discuss things, and you know, that that's going to translate into the bedroom and vice versa. Right. You know, like, if we have that type of open communicative relationship, right? That's going to continue, you know, in both spheres, that's what I sort of record, you know, but if you're right, you're right. And it's interesting, this whole
thing of, you know, it's really interesting, this whole thing of, you know, faking your orgasm, whether it's male or female, but mostly female, right? It really comes from again, not wanting the man to feel upset that he sort of failed and you know, like, it's sparing him hurting his feelings. But if you go back to what you were saying, bravo,
that if she's not communicating about what she's enjoying, and what she's not, she's gonna keep on not enjoying it, or she's a leash, she's not good. And he as well, it might could be both way, you're not going to get the best experience that you can and why why would you just put yourself through an ordeal unnecessarily just because you can't communicate, she may not know abdur-rahim And that's where it goes into the next thing he may not know. So within the realms of permissibility experiment, as you said, You've shown what the boundaries are, okay? limits that are there experiment together, to see if these things bring in and we were coming upon the our dream and if I
may, I want to say one of the things, what we want to look at.
There is that type of romance, intimacy, and love in Sharla there's the epitome of that across a different type of love, which is loving for Allah but I want to go to the one thing inshallah we go to Jenna, with partners and wives, okay. And think about this, because this is one of the things I remember asking the scholar and I think there's a narration there that Imagine now that you, you climax, you orgasm with your wife in Paradise, and that's the orgasm that lasts for 1000s of years.
Right? Imagine that, that state of ecstasy with the one you've been sharing that with in this life,
imagine you're in Paradise, and you reach that appeared to me because you're allowed to is halal. And it's not just the momentary that we have in this limited, finite life. Brothers, sisters dasa
I think we should be striving for as well. Because if some if everyone goes, Oh no, I don't want that. I'm sorry, then you lot of strange because that's something that I, that's one of the reasons for Paradise to me like, wow, mashallah I'm striving for that. That's something that takes us with the hereafter the pleasurable things of this life that are permissible, and the eternal aspects of those in Jannah in sha Allah, and we should all strive for that.
And you're smiling at me, but trust me after a climax for 1000s I've never
proved my brain is going to get too analytical now, because there's a marketplace in gender every Friday where you get to see the face of a loss. So I probably wouldn't want to miss that. No, we wouldn't miss that. You're right. I suppose you
can put it on pause I suppose.
So but I don't know Allahu LM. I don't think we should think about gender in like worldly terms. Anyway, it's a whole different. No, that's something that's dead after he this is something I've seen the the limitations of this? Well, yeah, exactly. I'm agreeing with you. I mean, it's
maybe time does he have the same meaning at all in paradise that it has here, it's a whole different realm sort of way of existing. So Allahu Allah, whatever. I mean, I'm sure it's going to be great. And I'm sure the sex is going to be fantastic. In January, it's all part of it. I wouldn't, you know, bother too much myself about the actual nitty gritty details of things like that. But I mean, you know, whatever it is, it's gonna be great. And
I'm sure in general, there's all different there's different things, you know, that gets people really excited the prospects of in general, you know, for me, I, you know, the funny thing is, for me, one of the things I think about gender is actually more about, you know, finding out what would have happened if this had happened in history. Yeah. And you know, what this person did, and what happened, what really happened there, you know, who really killed JFK?
I actually never thought of that before. But you know, that sort of thing. You know,
I'm with you. And that's an interesting thing. For me, I think, like we've yourself, if we're being serious about it, and everything, and we're talking about romance, and we're talking about love, and I'm going to say with regards to love you for a loss, like, for me the whole reason, I'm who I am as a Muslim, and what I'm doing is the only reason I want to get to Jenna, primarily. I want to see him who I have worshipped unseen in this life, and changed my life for that's all. If it's just that my family's not there. No one else is there. And it's just seen him Subhanak that's it for me. Well, you kelps is everything.
What would we need after that? Exactly? Maybe just it'd be nice to meet the prophets as well. The Prophet sallallahu so no, I agree. I agree. But for me, is that is that Allah seein Allah subhanaw taala Right, right. Absolutely. At the end of the day, that's the supreme delight, isn't it? That's the most that is it. Like you know, that's the most beautiful thing of all the amazing pleasures of Gemina seeing the face of Allah is the best of the man you know what that it's if you want to, from a crazy other point of view, it's like a bit mad if you think about it. When you think about the punishments have held the worst punishment for the people of hell is the fact that they will know
that they will never see Allah's face on a Friday. That is just
It's parla disaster lucky, I think, on that abdur-rahim On that profound
thought, brothers, sisters, guests who's joined us. Let's look at romance and intimacy with our spouses.
And really put the effort in on that it takes work and can
remember, you get rewarded for this you get rewarded martial arts work. And let's let's all put aside the egos that is destructive. Let's put aside the egos. Let's just make it romance, intimacy and love no ego and love with the Abderrahim has been great as always.
I look forward to seeing you next week. And I think we've got a great topic lined up for next week right so if we haven't we won't say anything now but we really, really interesting. I'm really I'm going to send you some messages coming up. So about inshallah two years and next week's talk so you're welcome. Okay, everyone. Thank you, Zack. Lucky to see you all next week. Thank you for the fantastic participation and comments as always, and we look forward to seeing you next week in sha Allah. This has been a piece of cake piece of cake with him in the right right hand side of the screen. Up there are him green and him on the left hand side of the screen. abdulhak