Islam or Christianity

Abdullah al Andalusi


Channel: Abdullah al Andalusi

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Episode Notes

Which is the true religion of peace for the world today – Islam or Christianity?

Date: 26th March 2010

Venue: Kingston College, University of London

Reverend Jay Smith
Abdullah al Andalusi

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Tonight, speakers we have from the Christian side we have se Smith, he's involved in Christian Muslim apologetics. And he has worked among Muslims to more than 27 years. He's currently working on a PhD. And he's a regular speaker at Hyde Park speaks. On the Muslim side, we have a Buddha introduced. He is a former Christian who embraced Islam at a very young age, and he's also the coordinator for Muslim debate initiative.

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He has academic backgrounds in computer science. These activities involve speaking at community centers, universities, colleges and various TV programs. The debate structure, like Ben said, is right behind me a second, the rules of the debate. Number one, there will be no clapping, just to avoid uneven chocolate basically, because some of you might have to move with a Christian or Muslim speaker. We don't want that to happen.

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Please ask your questions at the end of the debate.

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Avoid inappropriate behavior that includes shouting out insults, or booing or raising your hand trying to disrupt them. Please don't do that. If you do that you will be asked to leave. And lastly, I understand that this topic might be sensitive for some of the Muslims, by do trust, we have a good Muslim speaker tonight that will represent our views. So hopefully, I'm hoping the Muslims won't be too offended. And like both professionals, obviously, thank you all and enjoy the first week of

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May the words in my mouth, meditations in my heart, be acceptable to the Lord, my strength, and my Redeemer.

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It's good to see you all here. It's good to be at Kingston. I've been here once we actually I've been here a number of times before, not recently. So most of you are new. I want to welcome my friend Avila. We've known each other for a number of years. We've never debated formally before, though we've been good adversaries that speakers corner regularly. And I think you've been on this topic at one time or another. So this will be fun tonight to actually come together to friends, who are two different opposing sides on a very important subject. And the subject, as you see up on the screen is peace. We all want peace. Everybody wants peace today. I don't think that's in doubt. The

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problem is which religion best represents peace today, in the 21st century, and I think most of you would agree that both Islam and Christianity claim to be religions of peace. Both Christianity and Islam claim that their founders or their their paradigms, their models, are men apiece. And certainly both Christianity and Islam claimed that the revelations are revelations of peace. The problem is tonight, what we're going to ask is, which has the better claim? It's a good question. And it's a hopefully a question that will engage your minds tonight. And also we'll bring up questions in the question and answer period. Since they both claimed that we need to make some

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definitions, we need to start with some definitions, which I'd like to do tonight.

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Both Islam and Christianity are defined by a revelation.

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for Islam, it would be the Koran Of course, it would be the traditions that support it, that actually embellish it that actually explained it because they follow the life of the Prophet as their model.

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For Christianity, it would be the Bible, but we need to be careful here for Christianity, it would be primarily the New Testament. It is the New Testament that bought in bodies also, that defines us. Though we have the Old Testament as authoritative, it is not what we follow. Today, the Jews follow the Old Testament, we follow the New Testament, it's the New Covenant. That's what New Testament means. So what we're going to talk about today, when we talk about peace, we're going to support in the New Testament, and I'll have to remind you this over and over again, because many Muslims get confused on that point. I don't follow Moses, I follow Jesus. Hear me out on that. The person I

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follow is Jesus Christ, Moses, and what happened in 1400 bc needs to be left in 1400 BC.

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My person, the man that I go to is Jesus Christ. Secondly, when we talk about violence, especially state run violence or violence that's propagated by the state we need to be careful because Jesus very clearly when he was asked who he pays taxes to, in Matthew chapter 22, verse 21, he said, give to Caesar what a Caesar and give to God what is God's. And by doing that he separated the church from the state. As Christians, we separate the church from the state. Therefore the state has a responsibility that the church does not and vice versa. It

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Is the state that goes to war, not Christianity. Get that straight? Because I'll remind you that over and over again, and it's because Jesus said, so now there are many examples of the church going to war. And I will say every time do they represent Jesus? And does that represent the gospel? And does that represent the New Testament?

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What that means is also our whole definition of what the of what the kingdom of God is, is going to be different. On the Muslim side, as you're going to hear tonight, The kingdom of God is the khilafah. It's the Islamic State. It's a theocratic state. On the Christian side, we don't have such a thing as a theocratic state. There is no such thing as a theocratic state. That was for Moses, but it was fulfilled in the person of Jesus Christ, therefore, that's why he said, where there are two or three gathered in my name in Matthew chapter 18, verse 20, The kingdom of God is no longer a place, it's no longer a piece of real estate. It is a relationship between God and man. Therefore

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that relationship is based on the model of Jesus Christ in relationship through the Holy Spirit. And all we say, and do we represent him.

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I will come back to that over and over again tonight so you don't get confused. It's so important to underline that before we get even get out. Now, Islam can't say that. Muslims cannot say that. Because when you look at the Koran, which is their paradigm, which is their model, which is their revelation, you will see that there are basically two halves of the Quran. I have a Quran here that you will notice that it basically if you just split it in half, you have the Medina source, followed by the mech and sewers rule of thumb, there is some Medina material here, there's some Mecca material here. And when you look at these two halves, you will see that by far, by and large, and

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you can correct me if I'm wrong Avila, the Mecca and Suez are basically sewers of peace, there is not much violence there, there is not too much that I would disagree with in this part of the Quran. It's this part of the Quran, which though it comes first, it's the later part that was revealed to the Prophet between 622 and 632, the last 10 years of his ministry, and it is that problem, this part is problematic, because of the verses that you see in this part of the Quran, that are full of violence, over 149 verses of violence in the Medina insurance. Now, you might say, which is the most important for Muslims today.

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Because of the contradiction of these two has because of the fact that when Mohammed was living in Mecca, he could not use violence, therefore, he did not involve himself in violence, not as a minority living in Mecca. It was only when he went to Medina, when He therefore instigated and inaugurated the khilafah, the Islamic State there in 622, which is really realized in 624, after the battle about that, at that time, then you will see that his biography, when you look at his life, you will see that there was rain after rain after rain after rain. And the violence began really in 624. And that's the last eight years of his life, which is revealed in this part of the Quran, that

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you will find the abidance it is those verses we need to go to because they are the more authoritative part of the Quran.

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How do we know that? Well, we have what they call the law of abrogation, which is built into the Quran in surah, two Ayah 106 and Surah 16 ioana. One is the law of abrogation that which we give mansukh which is we we give something better than nothing, which is strong. So anytime you have any contradiction between two verses, and we're going to see some of them tonight, you always go with the later verse. The Medina in verses always abrogate the meccan verses. And it's those Medina verses that over and over and over again are full of violence verses like surah nine, five, which is known as the sword Verse, So nine is Surah. Nine is very important because it's the last surah

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revealed to the Prophet that he died in 632. So therefore, it's the most authoritative surah in the Quran. Verse five says, slay the unbeliever wherever you find the seeds that when you leave for them, wait for them with every kind of ambush.

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Now remember, this is after the refer, the forbidden months have passed and there were four forbidden months when you may not when you may not use violence.

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A few verses on after that is this verse about the alakija.

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And it says make war upon goats. To him the scriptures have been given those who do not follow the last days.

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The other Kitab are the people of the book until when until they pay the jizya tax that's against us Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians we see other verses like super 47. If for the first three verses of that chapter start with defining who a believer is and who unbeliever is, and then verse four says, cut off the heads of the unbeliever. Well, that's pretty striking.

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If after you've defined them, then it's just a cut off their heads and two verses later in verse six, it says and those who participate in jihad, if they should die or if they should live great as the reward is

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surrogate i a 38 that says all the unbelievers fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression. And there prevailed justice in faith in Allah surah to Isaiah 216 and 217. jihad is ordained for you, though you dislike it. Fighting therefore is a great transgression. But a greater transgression with Allah is to prevent mankind from following the way of Allah. Now, these are difficult verses to read, I just read read you five, I could go on and on and on. There are so many of them. In fact, I have a paper here and I'll give it to a builder at the end of this to show you the 149 verses, all of which need to be executed, all of which needs to be understood in their

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context. And you will see the best way to look at their context is to look and follow the Prophet's life and sell but before we get to that, let's let's talk about other violence, not just war did we find in the beginning Sutras, we also find wife Beatty. So for Ayah 34. It's very clear that if a woman disobeys her husband, the husband has three things he must do either at monitor. Secondly, he may throw her from her bed, his bets use me. And then thirdly, he may beat her

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We continue on with till surah, two i a two to three, your women are a tilt for you to cultivate. So go to your tail as you will to horrendous women.

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Because it really basically shows that a woman is nothing more than a property of a man this is huge violence against women.

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So 33 I have 50 talks about slaves and concubines we have made lawful unto thee those who my right hand possess it that means and it goes on to say of those who are have given to the spoils of war. These are basically prisoners of war.

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It talks about also crucifixion,

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the recompense for those who wage war against Allah and certified by a 33 and 34. They shall be killed or crucified or the hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides, amputations through a five by a 38, which stipulates that fees must have the right hand amputated. Also, we have the whippings. And so 24 to those who are adulterers, both male and female, must be given 100 lashes. These are violent verses, not just with the sword, these violent women adulterous. These are like those who are thieves and robbers.

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to understand any scripture, and this is what we do in Jesus, this is what we do we make sure that we do when we're talking about scripture, any scripture to understand scripture, you have to understand the how to execute how to under how to basically interpreted correctly, I want to be careful, we do that and some of the things we're going to deal with tonight, is interpreting this correctly. I know a bill well enough to know that he's going to tackle these verses. And I want to make sure that we do that correctly arts ourselves. And so the best way to do that you need to go back to the author of these verses. Now for the New Testament, we're gonna see the authors are very

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clear they give their names to their books. For the Quran, it's a little bit difficult because there is no author.

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There is no name given there. But we know that these revelations were revealed to a man named Mohammed. Therefore, we got to go back to his example we need to go back to this person, we need to go back to his biography, and I brought his biography today. This is the the life of Muhammad from Issac, we don't have even such material. We're dependent on even Ishaan, even sharp died in 833. Basically 200 years after Muhammad's death, we finally get the biography of the Prophet written down. And this is the earliest biography of the Prophet first, this was trained to translate by Qian and then be translated into English. I don't know if you've had a chance to read it of the live I, I

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would encourage any of you Muslims to read his biography because to understand how to interpret the scriptures, you need to follow how the Prophet interpreted how he used them in his own life. We do the same thing in our New Testament, we look and see how Jesus lived out what he said. And then we look and see how Paul then expounded explained it in the different churches there in Galicia and Ephesians. And Philip II, places like that, but certainly when you look at his life, you will see that these verses are all well expounded in his life, and it's what's amazing. When you just read it, you just find that's when he moved to Medina, suddenly the whole tenure of his ministry changed.

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He started going on these rates, I counted over 40 different rates here, just within this one book here. I looked at them and I counted them off as I read through each one of them. Now, a bill is going to say that these are defensive rate, prove to me that they're defensive. Look and see, these were raids that he initiated 27 of them he participated personally in

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another 37 or 38, excuse me, he said others to rate others. Now, that doesn't mean that they always use the weapons No. Many times when they read it, they came upon the enemy, the enemy fled and left their belongings behind and they would bring them back. That always been bloodshed. But the vast majority of these raids were offensive. They were not defensive. If this is the paradigm for Muslims today and understanding the scriptures, and if he is the universal paradigm for all Muslims in all ages, at all times, in all places, then this is a very violent paradigm.

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We don't find that with Jesus Christ.

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Nor do I see him going on rates? No, why do I see him instituting a theocratic state?

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What's more look and see what Mohammed did with those who criticized

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us made the point is

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God who also wrote poetry said those who visit his companions to go and kill them. And when they kill the cat, they when they came back from killing them, even us mom who was suckling her baby, and she was stabbed through the heart as she was suffering her baby, when she came back the next day to mom and what she had done, and this is all in his biography, read it, don't trust me, I could be wrong, you read it for yourself. He praised him for what he had done.

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This is not a peaceful man.

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This is not a paradigm of peace. This is not a model for today.

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Now on the other hand, we need to go back to the Old Testament, in the new test, we need to go back to the Bible. And we did look and we need to ask is not the same thing in the Bible. And you will find that interestingly, you will find that there is violence in the Old Testament, yes, and we're going to bring an awful lot of that out the violence that is there, which is interesting, you will find that there is a violence there. But let's look at I want to look at six criteria of how the violence was used. First of all,

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the violence was there was given an assay was inaugurated, mainly because of what happened at the very beginning. And to understand that you need to go right back to Genesis three, to look and see what happened at the fall of man. And when the fallen man came, he destroyed everything. Because of that one sin that happened there in The Guardian, everything was destroyed. And therefore God in verse 15, of the of chapter three, he turned towards he says, There is someone who's going to come in your life, he is going to crush the head of Satan and Satan is going to lose his seal. And that's the first. That's really the first prophecy we have with the Messiah who is going to come, that is

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going to be the person who's going to come and restore that which was destroyed. And all the way through the Scriptures. You'll see case after case, point after point where the Messiah is promised now the Muslims, you should know that because you know who the Messiah is, he's in your Quran 11 times you will find it referred to in your crown, and only one person has given that title in the Quran, and His name is Jesus. Messiah is Jesus. This is who God was promising at the very beginning of time. And he was going to promise that he would come into a people that had been selected for that purpose. That's the second reason why God instituted violence in the Old Testament, because he

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had to create a people and he had to create a place to introduce the Messiah.

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But what's interesting is that violence was also instigated by God in the Old Testament to punish the sins of the people. And we see that over and over again in Leviticus 18. And Deuteronomy 18, the bigger the biggest, 22nd Kings, chapter 21, he comes to judge the sin of the Jews as well, we see that in Second Chronicles chapter 717, to 22. And we see the whole Assyrian, and the Babylonian exile as that promise fulfilled upon the throne of Israel. So the violence was not only against those against who were against God, it was also the children of Israel that he had selected.

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What's more, rarely was this violence ever used for expansionist or political game?

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The promise to Abraham that he said that he would set up people and then he would even say to Abraham, where is that kingdom? Look where your eyes see that was fulfilled

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by David in the Davidic kingdom.

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That's as far as that expansion wins.

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And what's more, the goal of that expansion, the whole goal of creating that kingdom was to bring peace and reconciliation between God and his people to bring people back into that relationship that had been destroyed at the very beginning.

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Now, let's just take a look. And see also that when you look at the violence in the Old Testament, and I'm not supporting it, because it's not my paradigm, but when I have to still look and see what God was doing back then when you look at the bodies there, we see that God participated in that violence. We see it over and over again, God came down to earth, and he was the one that destroyed the enemy for the Israelites in Egypt with Moses the 10 plagues in Exodus chapter seven, verse 12. That was God who instigated who did those 10 plagues in Jericho with Joshua, there in john six, a Joshua six, excuse me get the right testament. Josh was six you will see that that was God who

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destroyed the walls of Jericho with the Amorites in Joshua 10, again with Joshua who hold the sun back for a whole day so they can defeat their enemies that was God that held back the sun. When the Canaanites Adam in Deborah's poem, in Judges, five, that was God that brought upon the rain to destroy the peoples and with the Midianites in Judges six, with Gideon, he was God that confuse the people when he brought down the number of, of warriors that were to this company, getting into only 300, proving it would be God that would fight that battle not to get hit amongst the arameans with Elijah, in Second Kings six, it was God that brought upon the blindness, they eradicated the

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arameans and with the Assyrians in Second Kings, chapter 19. It was God that came and destroyed overnight 185,000 of Sinatra's army. And then lastly within the Easterners in Second Chronicles with Jamal Safar. It was God's

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It brought about the ambush so that when jello spot came, he saw the entire enemy laying on the ground. Over and over again we will see God participated in that violence. He not only instigated he participated, but as you go through the Old Testament, it gets weaker and weaker. Because once the people were created once the land was given, there was no longer than any need because why? He was always pointing in Isaiah nine verse five to seven and Miko, five, four to five, it was always pointing to the Messiah, the Prince of Peace. And when the Messiah comes, it says in Isaiah two, four, they will beat their swords into plows, and their spears into pruning cokes. nation will not

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take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore. This was a whole reason for bringing the Messiah to bring about peace, to bring about that peace that only the Messiah could bring. And that's when we move into the New Testament. Because when the Messiah came, who you all know is Jesus Christ, we all know that or it's up. When the Messiah came 2000 years ago, he brought about peace. And that's what when you look at the New Testament, we get a complete different model, a complete different paradigm. Look at the New Testament, and show me where there's violence there.

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Look it over and over. And I can go a whole litany of verses. Let me just give you a few of what we're talking about. In Matthew five, nine it says Blessed are the peacemakers, in Matthew 539, pray for those who persecute you Matthew 22, it says, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. And Matthew 26, probably the greatest verse that talks about peace says, Put away your sword Peter, for he who lives by the sword shall die by the sword. That's our paradigm today. And that's exactly what Jesus called us to do. Luke chapter six, verse 27, it says to love your enemies. Romans 10. Verse 15, is the gospel of peace. It says, Romans 1218 it says, Be at peace with all men, Second

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Corinthians 13. They only told chapter is about peace, and be in peace with be with you. Colossians three, verse 15. Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts and First Thessalonians five, verse 13 to 16 always seek after that which is good for one another and for all people. First Peter, chapter three, verse 11. seek peace and pursue it.

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Now remember what I'm saying tonight?

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I'm not saying that there aren't Muslims that are peaceful. Yes, I would imagine almost every Muslim in this room is peaceful. You all want peace? I would imagine most of the people here United Kingdom are peace. Well, I would say around the world are peaceful.

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There is a section of Islam that is not peaceful today. And we're seeing that in the news. Now most of you Muslim sitting in this room today said they don't represent you. And I know they don't represent you. Please get don't don't get me wrong today. I'm not saying that you are violent or that you seek violence? We're asking a much deeper question. Where is it? These people who do see, but it's where do they go to find that balance? Where is it? They're going to to get their motivation?

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to slay the unbelievers to cut off their heads like zaca? We're just doing Iraq? Or did in Iraq? Where do they get these verses from? The right here in this book, you can get away from they are in this book. This book is your paradigm. This book is your revelation. It's not my revelation. I thank God for that. I don't have to go to this book. I come back to this book. You know, it's like my Bible bigger than my Crohn's. You always know, which is more important for me. Sorry, but I love this book. Because it's this book that helps me understand what God was doing and history helps me understand understand what happened at the very beginning, how it was all destroyed, and how God

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Himself said that he was going to promise that he was going to bring a redeemer, he's going to bring someone who would rectify that which man had done it was man that sinned against God. That rebellion came at the very beginning. But God didn't leave us alone. God said he was gonna send somebody and it says all the way through a little tags, a little read green text all the way through Scripture, saying who that somebody was, we known as the Messiah, we know him as a son of God. In Isaiah chapter seven, verse 14, Isaiah said, for this will be a sign to you that means Muslims and Christians sitting in this room, a virgin will conceive and bear a son, Ellison's virgin, just don't

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conceive, at least not my world they do. So when that happens, wake up. something miraculous is going to go on. This is the sign that we're all to pay attention. A virgin is going as conceived bear a son, and he shall be called Emmanuel, God with us, that son is going to be God Himself. He is hundreds of years before the Messiah came. He promised that now both Muslims and Christians know that there was a virgin that did bear a son, it's it's in your Quran in surah 19 ayah 20. Look at read it in Surah 1920. You know that that virgin is Mary.

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We know the same. The Bible talks about that in Matthew and Mark, all four gospels speak about that. And when she bought a son fulfilling what Isaiah said, proclaim what Genesis what God has said right back there in Genesis three, she was bringing into the world, the Son of God, the Messiah, son of man,

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son of man,

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that was God with us. Now because of that,

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It had to be someone who was God himself who could rectify that which had happened at the very beginning. It was only God He who has sinned against who could take on that recompense, and therefore it had to be God who came to earth. And when the Messiah came, there was no longer any need for war, there was no longer any need for violence, there was no longer any need for a kingdom based on land, and property, place. Kingdom now was a relationship, a relationship between God

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and two or three were gathered his name. The name we know is Jesus Christ. And then john Tran, I'm sorry, john 10. And john 14, I'm sorry, john 14. And john. It said, even as he left he was going to believe a computer repair Cletus, that's not Mohammed, please look at the content you will see has nothing to do with Muhammad. That's the Holy Spirit. And it's the Holy Spirit, who now tells us who we are who helps us to understand not only that we are not to use violence anymore, we're to to depend totally on him. We don't need bottles.

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Because we have God with us. Even now, even in this room. Let me end by saying this just by summarizing.

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Instead of violence, Jesus asked us to suffer Matthew five. Instead of vengeance, he asked us to forgive in Matthew six, Luke 17. Instead of Reed, he asked us to share Luke 12, Luke at instead of domination, he asked us to serve in Luke 22. Instead of hatred, he asked us to love in Matthew five, Luke six, do you want a man of peace, come to Jesus, want a revelation of peace, come to the New Testament, the gospel of Jesus Christ, I asked Abdullah to show us anywhere in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, where we are admonished or injured to use violence, you will find it.

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Thank you. Just a reminder, for those who want to ask Jay, any questions, please write it down on a piece of paper and put his name, Jay. So then we know that questions, and now from the Muslim side we have

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thank you

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for hearing

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us about Islam and Mohammed.

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Peace, and greetings to all of you. Thanks for waiting and so on. I was told the top so half an hour or so, but better late than never, they say.

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Yeah, you know, I was a I was an ex Christian, as true as the adult introduced. And I did some research on Christianity and then shifting about Christianity, I think I think most Christians or Muslims don't know here is Christianity has many sects, many sects of Christianity, and you want to have a guess what sect of Christianity J. Smith follows. Is it capitalism, mainstream Protestant, Protestant, Baptist Calvinists, and some of the reformed theologies, and so on. No, small little sect called the Mennonites. And you know, what's special about the Mennonites

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is that they believe in pacifism. Whereas all other sects of Christianity, without exception, almost believe that just war is justified by the Bible. And we're going to go into that, but very, very briefly, Jay said that we don't fall we fall on an Old Covenant. So the New Covenant, not non covenant, that's fine. But the moral law, the Old Testament, you still follow when you say that the 10 commandments abrogate the jail, I should say that in public, as I had nothing to do with secularism and secularism, later on came into it and change the meaning of that. What it meant is that the Roman power was kept separate from the power of God, which was naturally expressed within

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the Jewish theology of the kingdom of God, keep them separate Roman power, and the Jewish love of God.

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He said that the meccan surah is a peaceful and Medina stories have a lot of military to say, verses, that's generally true, and so on. But again, it's like if the Prophet Muhammad SAW someone was crucified before he went to Medina, we'd also get a religion like Christianity, but I think we'll find the word Jesus, when He comes back, he will certainly be a man of war, and he will take power and then we'll see what the we'll see what kind of peace Jesus brings and his method of how to bring peace. He also says, I put a lot of red herrings, women slaves, I can't I'm not gonna I can't answer all those questions today. But the issue of women is, I'll put this one point if a husband

00:29:42--> 00:29:57

fails to fill the rights of his wife in Islam, the court judge can punish him, and it can be also martial punishment as well on against the man, whereas the Islam doesn't get involved with how the man regulates how the man

00:29:58--> 00:30:00

is in his own marriage, but he did.

00:30:00--> 00:30:36

The state will step in if he abuses his powers as slaves. That's a whole different topic. And again, I'm not going to cover us today. But the New Testament allows slaves Paul even says, In the New Testament that the slaves being beaten, he should tolerate it tolerate being beaten and he shouldn't escape from his masters to stay with his master. There's no liberation for slaves in Christianity. He says that in Islam, we say that the thieves can have their hands cut off and so on. Well sort of Jesus if your right hand causes you to offend, cut it off, for it is better to enter the kingdom of heaven, single handed, then the kingdom hell with with two hands. But again, this is only for

00:30:36--> 00:31:13

thieves who fief of luxury not because they're poor, they want whatever these are fees you're feeling just because it's a career choice, the one they like to do, and so they are prevented from committing further sin. He also wants to call it been a shock as a source. Vinny shock is not a legal source for Muslims. I might as well just quote the gospel facility, which is also contemporary to the gospel of john and say that the Jesus was not crucified because the gospel facilities is that that 125 130 ad, but you Christians don't take it in your Bible. You don't you don't accept gospel facilities. So we don't accept any shock. It's it's been, the contemporaries have been shocked, like

00:31:13--> 00:31:22

Mr. Malik, condemned the money shot forgetting from not even tracing his story, his stories where he gets it from. But it's interesting why Jason would like to promote the binge shark.

00:31:23--> 00:32:00

These are the Prophet Mohammed did raids on pagans, these were not offensive raids on pagans because the Prophet felt like it. These were sanctions against the pagans who had persecuted and oppressed the Muslims. And much like you do sanctions on an oppressive regime in the modern world, these were sanctions and how do you implement a sanction? It's time for the break the sanction, what do you do you impound their ship? Or you impound their plane? or what have you? He says, G is not violent, I think you'll find yours in the temple market in turn of the cheek, did he he he got a whip out and it's like whipping people and getting an overturning money stores and so on. He's had asthma and

00:32:00--> 00:32:20

carb was were poets, and they were killed by the prophet Mohammed. And what were they what were they doing? They were inciting people in their poetry on my case with a call the approach was to kill the Prophet Mohammed. They were telling people kill the Prophet Mohammed strike his head off and so on. What else what else?

00:32:21--> 00:32:28

Isn't the violence not useful expression your testament will house Canaan invaded which is Monday Palestine by the Israelites how they didn't get it.

00:32:30--> 00:33:05

They said that the reason for expansion was to bring God and His people back into relationship with Kj Smith and why you got problem with with Islam doing that according to your understanding of it. They also the gods participate in his bows and he killed it wasn't the people killing? Well, no, he ordered Joshua to massacre men, women and children in a city so that's incorrect. He said that as I A to one five them all the Messiah can bring peace. Okay, so then why you Christian is trying to strive to make peace now just wait for the Messiah because according to your Bible, it won't miss the peace won't come to Jesus comes back. And what method will Jesus use to bring peace? Or leave

00:33:05--> 00:33:06

that as a question?

00:33:07--> 00:33:29

The first one Emmanuel, there'll be the Prince of Peace and so on this prophecy is no prophecy of Jesus. According to the New Jerusalem Study Bible, very scholarly edition is actually the prophecy of the son of the king a has and Jesus was never called Emmanuel, even though the prophecy says he'll be called Emmanuel. Jesus was not called Emmanuel, it was called Jesus. Anyway. Now to start my presentation.

00:33:33--> 00:34:12

Proverbs chapter 1817, says the first person to speak in court seems always right, and to the second person comes along and examines him. Old Testament. Christianity I want to show is not a pacifist religion never was. It does not have a comprehensive system to organize man's life and bring harmony in society, or bring its morals in into into fruition. Christianity project is not to bring world peace, but rather just to bring reconciliation between man and God until Jesus comes. This is the sense how Reinhold neighbour, the Christian scholar, contemporary Christian scholar, and very famous Christians gonna describe it

00:34:16--> 00:34:59

does not, there is no World project in Christianity to promote world peace. Essentially, the Christian is only interested in saving your soul. Jesus will be waiting for Jesus to come to bring world peace. And again, I wonder what method Jesus will use to establish peace. Again, I will say that for a bit later. So what's in the Bible? What's the method for peace? So how do you describe peace? Well in Judges 622, to 24 pieces and in a peace of peace of God and so on in Exodus 1823 pieces satisfaction and contentment, and Leviticus 26 six, it says and you shall eat your bread to the fore and tall in your land securely and I will give peace in the land and you should

00:35:00--> 00:35:18

Lie down, and none shall make you afraid. And then it goes, You shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword. So there's the Israelites will be at peace in a kind of security, but they'll still be killing people, they'll still be fighting against people, but their land will be peaceful because they will not be threatened.

00:35:19--> 00:35:20


00:35:22--> 00:35:32

Christianity, sorry. So the the, the piece might not necessarily mean there is an absence of war, rather, but there is security, justice and contentment within the land.

00:35:33--> 00:35:34


00:35:35--> 00:36:19

I don't know if if j Smith is saying that basically violence is evil. If he is saying violence, evil, then he's saying that his God is also evil because his God commands people to commit violence under autonomy, 2017, complete destroy them. the Hittites, Tamra likes the Canaanites, the parasites, the hivites and jebusites, as the Lord God, Lord, your God has commanded you. So God is commanding people to use violence. So if violence is evil, then his God is evil, according to his criteria, unless he says it's not intrinsically evil, it's not God coming down to destroy these these towns, God is ordering his worshippers, his servants to the story, these towns

00:36:20--> 00:36:26

now, but first, I'll start the New Testament again, in john 214, Jesus found

00:36:28--> 00:37:09

in the temple courts, got a whip made of made of various courts, and drove people out and animals and overturned stalls. Is this not evil? If I did this in this country, I'd get locked up for committing an offense against people, probably harming people and so on. The Mennonites, interesting enough, also believe, and this isn't what hasn't told you that government is evil, or government is evil, because the prince of this world is Satan, and so on. So everything to do this world is all satanic, so that the government is evil. And again, I challenge Jay to prove me wrong, maybe you're not a Mennonite or you're a relapsing minilite. But that's what they believe in. So if that's the

00:37:09--> 00:37:21

case, then again, in one Peter 213, to 17, it says they have to submit yourself to every authority amongst men, and so on. And so this is what God's will. But in Romans 13,

00:37:22--> 00:38:02

verses one to 617. I'm going to quote this because I think you should pay attention to this very interesting verse, Romans 13, everyone must submit himself to governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established, the authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment upon themselves for rulers. Whoa, no Tara, for those who do right, but those who do wrong, do you want to be free from the fear of one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you? For He is God certain to do good. But if you do wrong, be

00:38:02--> 00:38:08

afraid for he does not bear the sword for no reason. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath

00:38:10--> 00:38:50

to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to authorities, not only because of possible punishment, but also because of conscience. And this is why you pay taxes for the authorities are God's servants, and so on and so forth. Now, I said that the majority of Christians, you know, Allah pacifistic, why do I say this? Well, I'm going to quote you this, what is Martin Luther said about this verse, he said, God be praised for that, for the very fact that the sword has been instituted by God to punish the evil, protect the good, and preserve the peace. And then he cites Romans and one pizza. And then he says, peace is powerful and sufficient proof that

00:38:50--> 00:39:29

war and killing along with all the things that accompany wartime and martial law have been instituted by God, what else is war except the punishment of wronged by evil? And I can quote you, Calvin, I can quote you Aquinas, and I can call quote, Augustine, and they all base their ideas on what the Bible says. And these guys, they read the book holistically, the whole book holistically didn't make any they didn't live in under secularism to bias their thinking. They read it purely what's the book say? How should we live, government has been issued by God government has the sword got the store has not been born in vain. The gut the leader of government, is the agent of wrath of

00:39:29--> 00:39:59

God. So therefore, whenever the government does is by the will of God. Now, also that Jay Smith position is actually very consistent. It's actually quite consistent. You know, why? Because according to his criteria before it finds evil, then God is, is the commander of evil. God in the New Testament has instituted state power, therefore all states and temporary power is evil, because they've been instituted by the very God, which ordains evil in the Old Testament violence. So Jay Smith is out.

00:40:00--> 00:40:40

Say the Mennonite village is actually quite consistent about this, but probably not what in the way they would like. So, again, one Timothy, chapter two, government authority is required for peace, very interesting. In Luke 314. john the baptist speaks some soldiers and says, there were some soldiers who asked him, john, what should we do? He replied, don't extort money. Don't accuse people falsely, and be content with your pain soldiers, what the soldiers do, what they they think on the surface, they do performance arts, what the soldiers do, they have a sword, and they fight. Now, if this profession is evil, and if you call that the prostitute, you don't got the costume, say, you

00:40:40--> 00:40:58

know, a be good prostitute and be content with your wages. Is that what you say? If prostitution is wrong, No, you don't. But to to the soldiers. They're told that, you know, be good soldiers, and though extort money and so being mortal soldiers, and again augustan

00:41:00--> 00:41:32

quite long. Later, Augustine uses this first backup. Why? To show that soldier soldiering is not a evil profession. Again, Cornelius in Acts 10, the pious Centurion was not rebuked by Simon for being a soldier. And, of course, the famous one he likes the quotes of Matthew 26. To put your soul back in its place, just set him for he who drew the sword will die by the sword. Now I am going to quote Augustine what are the Gustin say this famous classical Christian scholar?

00:41:34--> 00:42:12

So also a rash judgment frequently does no harm to him who is the object of the rash judgment, but to him who judges rationally and rashness itself must necessarily do harm. According to such rule. I judge on that same also everyone who strikes with the sword shall perish by the sword for how many? How many? Take the sword, and yet do not perish with the sword, Peter himself being an instance. So he's saying that what Jesus is condemning is rashness. The first thing you do you grab the sword, when you solve any problem? No, that's what's being condemned. If Jesus was saying anyone takes a sword will die by the sword, then people didn't die by the sword. And Jesus made mistake. So many

00:42:12--> 00:42:35

people who are professional soldiers who don't die by their weapons, so can Jesus must be an error? And who got Peters weapons in the first place? Do you want to who boy for him? Wasn't Father Christmas? It was Jesus. Jesus has saved governments and by swords, so Jesus was telling his disciples take up the sword. That's why he said to some minority, because it's just it doesn't doesn't match the biblical reality.

00:42:39--> 00:42:46

So there is one in one Corinthians 717 to 20. It says that the Christians should that should not give up so

00:42:47--> 00:42:58

that they should not give up their place in life that the Lord has assigned to them. So if they are so again, or gustan, you says this way, if you're in the military, you should stay in that profession, as one Corinthians 717, to 20 says,

00:42:59--> 00:43:09

as we know, in the Old Testament, that this is the New Testament. So I would say that the state has been established by God, the ruler is an agent of God, he does not bear the sword in vain.

00:43:10--> 00:43:12

And he is there to punish the wicked.

00:43:13--> 00:43:56

And of course, the wicked might necessarily be those within his country could be outside the country. And based on these fundamental verses, almost all Christian scholarship are unanimous that Christians can engage in warfare for just causes, of course, and to punish the wrongdoer. And in Proverbs, it says he who he who hate us bears the rod hates his son, he who uses salt to use the road to correct the sun. He is he loves his son. So this is the law of love. Christians out of love are meant to correct the wrongdoers by using the road if necessary. And they're meant to protect the innocent because they love the innocent, they own the innocent to be suffering from the wrongdoers.

00:43:56--> 00:44:14

So this is what motivated Christians to actually go to war. And if I was any other Christian speaker here today, I would still be attacking J. Smith for this very same point, because this point is the Orthodox Christian perspective. Again, he's not showing you this, this perspective. And I can debate him solely on this topic if you want, maybe not a time. Anyway.

00:44:15--> 00:44:16

So we see.

00:44:17--> 00:44:41

So we see in Joshua 617 24 Years Old Testament now God commands that the city is to be devoted this rebellious cities, other city that they're going they're invading these rights were invading is to be devoted to the Lord. And they said, The sitting widow is Lola and understood of the soul every living thing in its men, women, young, old cattle, sheep, donkeys.

00:44:42--> 00:44:59

The God of the Old Testament commanded this and his followers have to follow this through men, women, children, everyone, every living thing massacred. The real interesting thing is the real thing is he says all this is the Old Testament paradigm. We don't follow that anymore. Really.

00:45:00--> 00:45:13

You should reach out your Bible more to Timothy 316 says, All scripture is divinely revealed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, sort of the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

00:45:14--> 00:45:37

So all scripture new and old, can be used and has always been used by Christians. For the last 2000 years, they've Christians have looked up delved into the Old Testament and New Testament to understand things, they only reject the ritual laws of the Jews of the Judaic system, but the moral laws of the Judaic system, they still have to follow.

00:45:38--> 00:45:39


00:45:40--> 00:46:21

and he also says, we Christians live by the law of love is a brand new law called law of love. But if you read the Scripture, it's not a new. The Jesus explained his disciples that all the law in the past was always based on the law of love. Everything was based on the law of love. The Mosaic law is the manifestation of the law of love. Now, I asked the simple question, do we trust Jay Smith's interpretation of the law of love, or God's interpretation, law of love, because if we trust God's interpretation, law of love, then we have to go to the Old Testament where God teaches us how to be righteous and follow and implement the law of love. And again, all those things he hates about

00:46:21--> 00:46:28

punishing the thieves and capital punishment executions for x y, Zed, they're all in the Old Testament, and Christians have used it historically.

00:46:31--> 00:47:17

Now, my favorite part when Jesus comes back, bring peace, blue, great Jesus coming back to bring peace excellent, good. Oh, geez, what's he going to do? Is he gonna you know, do some kind of you know, Pentecostal type singing outside everyone's house and get them to join Christianity and and stop that renounce their violence? No. in Revelations 19 1121. And in two Thessalonians one, he says, The geospace will come back, you take out a soul out of his mouth. I don't know how that's possible, and he will massacre everyone. And it says here, all the non believers, not the Christians, the non believers, of course, come gather together for the great supper of God so that

00:47:17--> 00:48:00

you may eat the flesh of kings, generals and mighty men of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people free and slave, small and great. Even the slaves that didn't have a choice why they get massacred for by Jesus. And that's a sup I'm gonna actually have to bow out of, and so on. Anyway, this is this is how Jesus is bringing his peace. He brings peace through violence, Jesus will be bringing peace through violence, when Jay Smith said that people will beat their swords into plowshares and their space into pruning hooks those words to that effect. This is referring to after Jesus comes. So and Jesus will bring this peace. Once he massacres. Everyone doesn't like. Now you

00:48:00--> 00:48:41

might think, Oh, this is okay. Okay, fine. Jesus does that. But that's good. If we believe Jesus God, that's the judgment of God, that's to us. We can't do that. Oh, really. But in Ephesians five, one, it says, Be imitators of God. Christians are to be imitators of God. That's very scary. And then we see what happens. We see the crusades, Oliver Cromwell massacred 1000s of Catholics in Ireland based on those verses, and she beats a Puritan Christian and in any mascon St. Bartholomew's day massacres, witch burnings both past and present present in Nigeria, there was a BBC Channel Four documentary about which children was they they kill them and they burn. Iraq War was told God told

00:48:41--> 00:48:56

me to go to war, famous Bush's quotes, abortion clinic bombings, shootings in nightclub gay nightclubs where Christians go in with a garment they do personally columbines on these on these gay nightclubs. And so I tell them that the New Testament and the Old Testament tome to do so.

00:48:57--> 00:49:15

And, of course, some Christian terrorist groups using proverbs 2115, where it says when justice is done, it brings joy to the righteous, but terror to the evildoers. So terrorism is not bad because terror, it only holds fear for evildoers, according to the Bible.

00:49:17--> 00:49:25

Now, I've dealt a lot with Christianity, and my time is limited, I should talk about Islam. But suffice to say this,

00:49:26--> 00:49:59

Islam believes in faith, and it believes in righteousness, righteous actions. So there's the book of James 226 and 224. James says, you see that man is justified by works and not faith alone or Faith without works is dead. Now Islam has a system for mankind to eliminate poverty, to eliminate oppression, be it internationally, or nationally. In fact, if you read the question, just war theory and jihad, they are virtually identical. And I would recommend you go and read the reads such as

00:50:00--> 00:50:39

such words. But in Islam, we are also commanded. I'm gonna give you some interesting quotes. In Islam it says, repel evil with good for such there is the final attainment of the eternal home. So we have to repel evil with good as well to not be treacherous, even if those are treasures to you have doubled again in the Quran 4134 and not equal are the good and the bad deeds repel evil by that deed which is better and there upon the one whom between you and him there is it will become as though he was devoted friend in the Quran southminster Christians, yes is also in the Bible. In fact, I will change j, there's virtually nothing mentioned in New Testament Bible in terms of loving

00:50:39--> 00:51:22

your neighbor having consideration for your neighbor. Helping a neighbor that is not mentioned in Islam in the Quran in the Hadith is identical. But we have something extra or rather, we didn't get rid of something that the Christians got rid of 1000s of years ago, which is the the Old Testament holistic law for mankind, the law, which gives human beings the right to satisfy that their desires to eat and have food and live in security and limit stability and inshallah, in my my rebuttal section, I will give more details about how Islam creates justice how, when Islam goes to war, defensively, we obviously we fight against attack. And when if you see a satanic Jihad being

00:51:22--> 00:51:31

offensive is against the oppressing pressive rulers who are oppressing their own people. And the Quran says What is wrong with you that you fight not for the weak and the oppressed in earth?

00:51:33--> 00:51:40

Who are so this is what Islam commands do we are to fight for the weak and the oppressed. And Christian scholarship has also said exactly the same thing.

00:51:41--> 00:52:08

So to conclude, Islam has a holistic system, a system of treating its people of different religions in an equal and fair manner. And I'm looking after all human meat needs, irrespective of where these human beings come from, be the Christian Jew or have you Islam brought peace for 1000 years and is short a great flowering of civilization and progress and inshallah God willing to go further into that next section. Thank you.

00:52:14--> 00:52:22

Thank you. And now we'll have five minute rebuttals instead of 10 because the debate was delayed, and we apologize for that, Jake.

00:52:32--> 00:53:08

It's really too bad. We only have five minutes, I would love to get a hold a solid 10 minutes. I think it's telling that in the 25 minutes that was given to you to talk about whether Islam is a religion of peace, you only spent three on Islam. 22, castigating Christianity, and that's telling right there. The problem with Muslims is they don't know how to defend their own faith on this issue or on many issues. And we find this over and over again. We have been asking muslims for years to try to defend something as simple as peace in Islam, he could only come up to one verse ready, so 4134, to even defend the idea of peace. And he made this amazing statement that the verses on peace,

00:53:08--> 00:53:44

that we have the litany of verses, and I could have gone three times as many in the New Testament that they could also be found in the Quran. I want to ask you right now, where are those verses that say, to turn the other cheek, to love your enemies in the common word document that was put out by 138 scholars two years ago, on the love of man and the love of God in the love of man, they could not even come up with one verse in the Quran that talks about the love of men in the Quran. We want to find those verses that talk about unconditional love of man like we find in the New Testament. What's more, he asked, and he says that Christ was never a pacifist, and that he that we as

00:53:44--> 00:54:20

Christians are only come to save souls. Christ exactly was a pacifist I again I showed asked me Show me anywhere where Christ use violence. When he talked about the temple he didn't use violence against people read john to again, he used violence against the animals. It was the authority of his work that drove up the money changers. Be careful, Christ never use violence against other people. Christ was violated over and over again. It was Christ that was whipped. It was Christ that was ridiculed there in the temple. It was Christ in I'm sorry, in the course it was Christ that would drug the cross. It was Christ that was on the cross. And how did Christ respond? Father forgive

00:54:20--> 00:54:52

them, for they know not what they do. That's the example of Jesus Christ. I don't see anywhere in any of the New Testament where Christ ever not only engage in violence, he could have used the angel to support him. He refused to even when the disciples defended him in Matthew 26, which you ridicule, look at what he said he turned towards Peter, and he said, Put away your sword for he lives by the sword die by the sword. And yes, those are the Knights that were told to pick up. What were those kinds of knights they were called Mkhize. They're only about 12 inches long. They were at the dinner table. They were used as kitchen knives. Basically, they use for every type of utensil,

00:54:52--> 00:55:00

and that's why he said sell your cloak and buy a knife because they were used for every kind of use. They were used to basically to clean your fingers that we use also to

00:55:00--> 00:55:34

Cut the tents. That's what Paul used to make tents. They could, they were also using the dinner table to cut the meat. And it's that what Christ was saying they're the most important utensils I now leaving you, therefore sell your cloak invite two knives to is enough, the very next day when it was used and less, you can use kitchen knives as defense. But when was used the defense, he said, Put it away. For those who live by the sword that way, die by the sword that way, thank God for Jesus Christ. And thank God he gets it right. He was the perfect pacifist. Listen, I'm not alone in this room. I don't think there's any other Christian in this room that believes a word to use the

00:55:34--> 00:56:10

sword as the church that Remember, you went to Romans 13. Thank God you did. Romans 13 says we are to obey the state, we are to be held under submission to the state. But we must never obey the state if it demands that we use the sword as the church. Remember I said at the very beginning, we separate church and state, that is the responsibility of the state. It must go to war, it must police the world. We give it we we give it that responsibility. That's why the West has followed that model. That's why you're here in England today. That's why we don't let the church go to war. Thank God, they mess up every time. And that was the case for the first 300 years. No Christian went

00:56:10--> 00:56:45

to war. In fact, the soldiers if you look at your history, the soldiers that were converted into Christianity, they were asked by the church to leave the profession because it was not compatible with the gospel of Jesus Christ. And for 300 years, no Christian went to war. In fact, they were persecuted by the state. It was when Constantine who was the Emperor in the fourth century, when he became a Christian. He then brought the two together standing against what God had intended. Jesus had never intended to state to be amalgamated with the church. Why do we know that? Look at Jesus look and see what he did? Did he ever join any political movement? No, if that were the case, he

00:56:45--> 00:57:18

would have joined the zealots. He refused to join the zealots. He refused to join the group called the Sinai School of Judaism because they wanted to control and they wanted to eradicate the powers that be following the maccabean brothers model. Jesus refused to do that, because he never participated in the political sphere. He stood away from the political sphere. And he dealt with the religious leaders, the Pharisees and the Sadducees. He only dealt with religious leaders, because that was his mission. That was the paradigm he was modeling. That was that what he was creating. And that's the paradigm that we are called to do today. We are not as church permitted to go to war,

00:57:18--> 00:57:43

Christianity, and Christians may not go to war, following the church, you can join the military and be a Christian. Yes, you can. Absolutely you can, you can join the police and be a Christian. But then you come under the auspices of the state, and you come under that jurisdiction, just as you as a plumber, or electricity or any other area of life that you may want to do is that time, I have to stop there. There's so much more I like to do, please bring it up in the question. And just because I got two whole pages I want to get

00:57:49--> 00:58:30

sort of 60 verse five and seven, it says our Lord make us not objects of torment for the disbelievers and forgive us our Lord. Indeed, it is you who is exalted in my own mind and wise and it continues, perhaps Allah will put between you and those who have been your enemies among them, disbelievers affection, and Allah is competent. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. So it says we are meant to pray to God do not make us a torment for non Muslims. We don't want to hurt or offend non Muslims. And we and this is what the Koran is currently Muslims to, to say, unlike, unlike Jesus, who condemns the Jews for being wrong into the synagogue of Satan, and their father is the

00:58:30--> 00:59:02

devil is Satan. Jesus was not so kind when dealing with people he was condemning. I'm not saying that's wrong, inherently. I'm just saying that that Jesus is does not fit into the picture. It's the box that j Smith would like Jesus to fit into, in sort of 42 verse, verse 40, because the recompense recompense for an injury is an injury equal there too. But if a person forgives, and makes reconciliation, his reward is due from God for God, love of not those who do wrong.

00:59:03--> 00:59:52

And then in sort of four, verse 1350, ye who believe, stand out firmly for justice as witnesses to God, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, whether it be regular gets rich or poor. And again, this is Oh, you who believe in sort of five, eight, stand up firmly for God as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not hatred of others make you swerve from, from justice from implementing justice. So this is what the teachings of Islam says to us. Every single moment the king said, true peace not merely the absence of tension is the presence of justice J. Smith, Christianity does not have any means to implement justice or establish justice in this world. Islam

00:59:52--> 01:00:00

does have a means to establish justice. We are meant to strive to protect the non Muslim or the Muslim anyone who's being

01:00:00--> 01:00:36

pressed, and there are a whole number of evidences that to talk about us fighting for the press are really quite one verse Cromer says we should was wrongly that you fight not for the weak and oppressed amongst the earth, whose Christ our Lord protect us from these this town president tyrants It doesn't say these people are only Muslim. It says all men this is this is any mankind any human being the Muslim has to stand for justice and protect them. And again, the Old Testament and New Testament also said the same, which is what motivated Christian just for thinking. He says that in the in john, it says that Jesus didn't hit anyone he only hit the animals. Once the animals don't

01:00:36--> 01:01:16

have any rights. J in Islam, we're not allowed to hurt on animals. So you're saying Islam is more merciful to animals than you Christianity? j Smith. That's that's pretty short, shocking. But the first not say, who he hit, he just says he drove out using a whip, both the people and the animals. Now if I'm having a whip, and I haven't touched you with it, you're gonna run away or you even if I whip it around you and I overturn your table, you can probably punch me probably. Right? But if I'm using it on you, then you're going to run, you say so again, you're trying to read in that the kind of person that you would like, into your into Jesus life. He said that the the swords that they

01:01:16--> 01:01:55

possess what swords they were like some kind of, you know, meat kebab knife that you see the turkey shops and so on. So, no, they were swords. Why? Because when Jesus and his disciples to buy swords, it was so that the scripture will be fulfilled, because criminals carry swords, they carry weapons. That's what the New Testament says, because for scripture to be fulfilled, that the Messiah will come with criminals or it will seem like he's coming with criminals, and so on. So these were swords. Again, he's trying to interpret or twist the word, even though the word is translated as sword. He's weak. He says, We separate we separate church from state. No, you don't j Smith. That's

01:01:55--> 01:02:30

only after secularism after Christianity was so brutal. They had to devise a materialistic ideology to govern human affairs, because Christianity was so broad with people, it stagnated them on oppress them. You said that early Christians were taught told the soldiers to get the Roman army. No, they didn't. I would like you to source that because I've read about early Christian understanding. They didn't tell the soldiers to leave Christian soldiers to leave the Roman army. They said do not engage in idolatry. When you're in the Roman army in the pagan Roman army, anyway, I believe I've also always twice and please ask me questions or elaborate or anything I've mentioned in my

01:02:30--> 01:02:31

discussion, thank you.

01:02:39--> 01:03:16

Without the cross without the crucifixion, we're all damned. Every one of us in this room is down, all of humanity is dead, because we're still in sin from the very beginning. It's because the Messiah came is because the Messiah who was promised from the very beginning of Genesis 315, as I said earlier, who was then fulfilled through the Messiah, the Prince of Peace, who comes, who takes on ours himself, the death that was required. Remember, in Leviticus 17, it's very clear that sin requires blood, it requires life given, it's very clear that that blood must be he who is syndicates. That's why all the way through history, Prophet after prophet that was sent by God to

01:03:16--> 01:03:54

introduce who that person giver would be, who would take on that sin, it would be the Messiah, it would be the principes. And when he comes, he dies on the cross, no one takes his place. So for 157 says, another man took his place, in that one verse in eradicates everything God came to do. That's why we have to stand against what the Quran says. It puts another man in his place in damsel to death, thank God, Jesus came as God. And it had to be God that had to do that, because it was God that was sinned against, therefore the cross that made the greatest violence in the history of mankind, God Himself, paying that price took upon himself, that sin that every one of us must

01:03:54--> 01:04:31

fulfill, thank God, he did it. Thank God, he came and happened 2000 years ago, and because he paid that price, now, because that price has been paid, I can be walking and talking with him for eternity, I can get back into relationship with him, as Adam and Eve were at the very beginning. And that's why it all makes sense. It all fits to a piece. But it had to happen that God had to go. Folks, don't ever give up the crucifixion. Please don't go to Israel for 157 it destroys everything that I believe. And for that one reason it eradicates who Issa is who Jesus is. Now beyond that, I don't know how much time I have somebody.

01:04:33--> 01:05:00

Okay, if you could put one minute just before us we know that because of that, folks. Everything that he's going to do and when he comes again and he will come again, he will come again. And when he comes again, he will fulfill everything that God intended. It will be then that there will be yes, there will be restitution. And after that we're all gonna be walking and talking for eternity. I hope you all come. I hope you don't sit there and and realize one minute to go. I hope you don't realize that this is something you can do. There's not a thing. You can

01:05:00--> 01:05:00

Do about your sin.

01:05:01--> 01:05:39

Remember, in the Garden of Eden, it was only one sin to destroy that relationship with God and man, just one sin. That's all it was. And God through Adam and Eve Adam is present through all of us out of his presence, you have that in Surah 507. And through a 20 year old Quran, you have the same story, but your heaven was up in space, and he was slowed down to earth, which means every one of you Muslims are imputed without sin, according to your Quran. Who's going to get you up to that paradise again, you can't do a thing. God is the only one that can do that. That's why we look to the crucifixion. Because God came and did that for us. I praise God for him. I give him to you. He

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is the only Savior. He is the only one worthy of doing that God became man took upon us. Our sins, got up on the cross. He died on Friday, but he didn't stay dead. He rose again on Sunday. Thank God for

01:05:54--> 01:05:56

the next question is one minute, three, but

01:06:00--> 01:06:01

three minutes, one minute, three minutes?

01:06:02--> 01:06:39

Sure. You know, it's very interesting that in this new age of of Jesus's sacrifice, that Christians still sin, they still have to repent, and God still gets a choice when it's forgive them, much like it was in the Old Testament. One One is what actually changed, actually, when God can forgive in the Old Testament, if you turn back to him so many, first off the first Old Testament, the Jews, if they repent, and they turn back to God, God will forgive them their sense. Why need Jesus if the Jews didn't need Jesus to have their sins forgiven? And what's worse, the old just God has to punish an innocent person to forgive other people sins. Does that make sense? rationally? See, that's why I'm

01:06:39--> 01:06:49

saying that Christians and Muslims and Jews we all are judged by our actions and our faith still to this very day, and nothing actually has changed.

01:06:52--> 01:07:10

The question for Abdullah his face interestingly, you as a Christian convert, you are ex Christian. But how do you convert from Islam to any other religion? Does the Quran not say that you should be stoned to death? How can you possibly defend the faith that you cannot leave on the basis of peace?

01:07:12--> 01:07:13

Interesting question.

01:07:15--> 01:07:16

Well, basically,

01:07:17--> 01:07:52

in terms of myself, now, if I was if I left Islam and went to Christianity, I wouldn't be stoned to death I won't be executed and so on. The laws for this noble rule for apostasy, the law of postulates actually should be called the law of treason. And it only is operative in a state for the protection of the community of the state against people who are rebellious against the state and so on. That's the context is not the economist translate and you know, why is the Miss translate, because the Christian implemented a law policy based on the Old Testament teaching, which they which has to have the moral law, whereby they execute the apostates will practice for 100 years, john

01:07:52--> 01:08:03

Calvin, great Christian scholar, executed microservices for popularizing from belief, the Trinity. And so so this is only related to the issue of

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perspective, treason against the state against the community, not against just simply leaving your faith. And again, this is the kind of the West who still traumatized by his Christian past, looks at Islam through the lens, expecting to see the same kind of Christian old, a medieval Christian thinking in Islam and hence been interpreted deliberately in that manner manner. Now, there are many other there are many hadebe there are many Hadees, about issue of Apostasy, every Hadith, but one has always been towards the person who's been rebellious to try to undermine the Samak community and state or the Muslims tried to attack it, or get people to attack it. And the only one happy for them

01:08:46--> 01:09:24

where one person just wanted to leave Islam or leave during the salon, the prayers and as a counselor, the prophet Mohammed exiled him just said, okay, you're fine. No, I'm not going to let you I'm not going to rescind your my promise, my pledge that you've given me that you're going to give a slot to God and sacado to charity. So this Bedouin guy in a half storms out of Medina, doesn't want to come back. This person has apostatized from Islam. So one minute, this person that posters for Islam, and the Prophet Mohammed didn't say, right must kill this person, because he wants to rescind. During the salah and pain as a car, he just left just one guy just left, and he

01:09:24--> 01:09:59

didn't want to come back. Because the Prophet Mohammed will not take back his pledge, which he made to God, and so on. So this is the one Hadith where it wasn't not involving anything to do with undermine state or rebellion or what have you. It wasn't a treason offense. The guy just left too many customers. I mean, scholars have said that that person who leaves Islam, they can just exit and leave an Islamic country or state and they can go wherever they want, and so on. That's actually the The truth is issue. It's a very, very detailed topic. And I can't respond to what Jason will say after I speak, but in a normal discussion, maybe I can actually elaborate on that topic. Thanks.

01:10:01--> 01:10:40

The idea of Apostasy is a sensitive one for Muslims because it is being practiced right around the world. And there is precedents for it. It's not only ranked through the traditions, it's found also in the Nazi manuals, chapters nine hodeida, Volume Two, all four schools of law to support the apostasy law. It's also found in the Quran curiously in sort of 489. But if they turn back from Islam, take hold of them and kill them wherever you find them. And taking you there. Oh Allah, they're helpless from from them. Now, the Crime The curious thing is he even admitted the fact that you you can kill them if it's in a pot in an Islamic State. He tried to sanitize it by saying if

01:10:40--> 01:11:10

they were confronting Islam, I don't know of any case, when you look at the examples of Apostasy that they were confronting the state they were actually just confronting God himself in the front and the Prophet himself. They were rejecting God in the problem. Do we find that in Christianity? Absolutely not. You have the freedom to choose God or reject him. Look at the prodigal son, what a beautiful story. Jesus even allows us to reject him. He just waits for us like the father waiting for the sun to come home. And when we come home, he rejoices provides us a banquet.

01:11:13--> 01:11:25

Questions for Jay. Jay said that Jesus never joined any political party and Christianity. And Christianity is a religion of peace, and that Christianity and the state are separate.

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That is only a relationship with God. So even if we accept that Christianity is a religion of peace, it doesn't answer the question posed today, which is the true religion of peace, and therefore it's not political. Therefore sorry, therefore, it's not practical as today's issue in the world of political issues.

01:11:48--> 01:12:23

Yes, let me read let me reiterate. That's a very good question. whoever wrote it. They I think this is a misnomer. And this is a misconception that many Muslims have. I think when they look at Christianity, they impose their own paradigm on Christianity. Please don't do that. I think you need to be careful. You need to understand what Christ was saying when he said separate, give to Caesar what is Caesar's and give to God, what is God? He was saying very clearly, that there is a whole institution of the state that is there. It is an edifice he lived under it. Romans 13 is very clear that we are to obey that state. We are to live under it. God has instituted states, but the church

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is not to participate in the actions of the state. That's what I'm saying Christians can individually as they can do in any job in any other fulfillment of life, but the church may not involve itself in the the requirements of state. Now because of that, be careful because Muslims do all the time confuse that issue is karada. The not only the Quran stipulates that, but the Prophet himself stipule created that when he created the khilafah there in 622. And, of course, inaugurated in 624, in a very real way, all the way through history, you will see for the last 1400 years, Islam has always rocked this mosque in the state together. That's why you had one

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khilafah after another finding was rescinded in the 1924 by came up to 30. In Turkey, the last remaining Ottoman Empire, thank God it was finally rescinded. I do not want to see brought back together again. Because whenever the church and state are brought together, the state corrupts the church. Always, always always. That's why God instituted that way. That's why I do not want to see what Constantine started. Take a look and see what Constantine started there in 320s. When he created a church, religious state, a theocratic state. The evilness of the state corrupted the church brought in almost every one of the examples that he's talked about Augustine, Aquinas, he

01:13:41--> 01:14:13

refers to them all the time. They are not my paradigm. Neither is Martin Luther, I don't go to Martin Luther Oracle on Aquinas or Augustine, I go to Jesus Christ. Have you heard that tonight? Have you heard that? Let me remind you, my paradigm, my model is Jesus Christ, why don't you come home to the Scriptures? Why don't you come to him would go and he said, Why do I have to go Matt to man's training? Thank God, I am a man. And I wish you all men and eyes. But that's not the point. That's not the point. It's just that we possibly Mennonites know the scripture better than most. And that's why we go back to it. That's why we go back to their description and see what Jesus did. I

01:14:13--> 01:14:53

don't have to go to other men to know that we do not follow men's beliefs. We do not follow men's thinking. We follow what Jesus said did. And it's the same way all over the world. And I find Christians everywhere who agree with that. We don't need to go use the sword. Put away your sword. We don't need to recreate the edifice of state that belongs to the state and that which they do, we can sit and prophetically stand against when they get it wrong. But folks, as a church, we have one responsibility and one responsibility alone. We have one person that we're responsible today and that's Jesus Christ. And we are to bring in the his kingdom, the kingdom that is everywhere. Yet

01:14:53--> 01:14:53


01:15:00--> 01:15:01

Again 489

01:15:05--> 01:15:49

Well, as Mennonite heresy, the state, which can be issued by God must be separate from is not a is an agent, an agent of God must be separate from the Institute of God. No, I could say that menno Simons, the founder of Mennonites, he's not our paradigm. If you're a Christian, you're not the paradigm. Jesus is a paradigm and Jesus used violence. And Paul was also a paradigm also said that the state has been instituted by God agent of God does not hold the sword in vain, but that the punish the evildoers is that God has put him there to punish evildoers. It is sanctioned by God, there's nothing wrong with it. It's sanctioned by God. You can't reject your own scripture, Jay

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Smith, because it makes you a heretic. And I'm gonna keep going on about from orthodoxy. But just to set a point that if you separate yourself from politics than all the evil in this world will be perpetuate and get worse. I like to see how Christian your Christianity will resist the Nazis when it was spreading through Europe.

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Excuse me.

01:16:13--> 01:16:20

What you like we can debate that on Saturday night? You read the words at any night together? That was talked about?

01:16:27--> 01:16:46

Can we not have any interruptions? Please, we stated that the questions were supposed to be written down. If you didn't write down your questions, or if it wasn't them, sorry, you will not be allowed to shout out. The next question is for Abdullah says, What is your view on the fact that a woman has to have four male witnesses to prove rate in Sharia law?

01:16:50--> 01:16:51

Well, there's actually

01:16:53--> 01:17:28

different opinions. The person that believes this in the four witnesses for rape also believes that a man has to have four witnesses if he gets accosted by a woman or a man. And sometimes everyone has to have four witnesses, because the conduct conception is sexual immorality and the punishment is so severe that you have to be absolutely sure that person just not making an accusation, just saying, you know, they had an affair, the man or the woman is upset and they just say, Oh, this person raped me XYZ person raped me. And then that person is is dealt with very harshly or for rape. And they didn't actually do it. How do you have to establish absolute proof, but it's very interesting thing

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that there was a Hadith of the Prophet Mohammed, a woman was raped. And she called for people to help her and some people came, some Muslims came, and they basically found the rapist they brought into the Prophet Mohammed, Mohammed said, Okay, this is the rapist, right? Then we will, we will execute this person. And then by stoning him to death. And then the real rapist stood up and said, No, actually was me. And I'm very sorry about that. I will take the punishment. So the Prophet Mohammed did instigate lipstick litigation, should we say Against Rape is based on the testimony of a single woman. And this isn't this isn't an haviv. But the lesson to be learned in that he also is

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that we have to be absolutely sure who we get is a rapist, otherwise, you can do a miscarriage of justice. And obviously, as the Old Testament says, In the book of Proverbs, that God hates, that the innocent should be punished, but that the the the evening shows that you people should be let go. And so this is the same kind of ethic within Islam, that we punish those, if we can prove it. But interestingly enough, even if there are not four witnesses or whatever opinion, you follow in the static faith,

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she can go to a to a judge I called the under the head above, which is to be when someone forces forcefully takes things from us and they rob you or they rape you, and the crime that the judge can punish the criminal based on her testimony, in accordance with discreet punishment which he decides is appropriate for that rapist if he's a male, or a female and someone not under the laws of sexual morality, but under the laws under the under the other laws of Hara, and someone has to deal with heavy rubber and apparently robbery to deal with people that basically

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mug you or rape you and so on. That's a different loss of structure in Islam. They also deal with rapist and has been used to deal with rapists that we can't prove that they committed sexual immorality which has to be justified by four witnesses in any case of sexual allegation of sexual immorality.

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I think the question here is much deeper than that the idea that a man must have a woman must have four witnesses when she is raped, or that a man must have four minutes when he is raped, how many men are raped by women to begin with? It's usually the other way around, almost always women are raped. How many women when they're raped can provide for witnesses. That's the problem. That's why this question was asked. It seems absolutely unfair to the woman that she must provide the four witnesses. What's more look and see in Pakistan today, and that's the one I know best because that's where the statistics are coming in. I would imagine there this could be the case right across the

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Muslim world.

01:20:00--> 01:20:33

Where there is entire prisons of women who have come forward to stipulate that they have been raped, but because they could not provide for witnesses there, they are incarcerated for adultery. That to me is heinous. That's why it is an unjust law. And it does not belong in the 21st century. And it does not belong in Britain. Thank God, we don't have a law like that. Thank God, a woman's work one woman, one woman's work is good enough. It's not what two women for every man like it is in the Quran. It's short for I 11. Thank God, one woman is equal to a man. It's scripture and the way it's done here.

01:20:37--> 01:20:47

Especially with Jay, if either religion proves itself to be a religion of peace, does it actually prove that it's in fact, a revelation from God?

01:20:49--> 01:21:24

Well, that's a great, that's a great question. No, and I think we need to be very careful today. We're not here to prove that it's a the revelation from God, I think we need to be careful that we're not we don't take that we're not that audacious. We're asking a much more simple question. And that is what we started up the very beginning. We do want peace today, all of us want peace. I don't think anybody in this room would say that they want by this. The problem is we're striving for peace. We're looking for it. And we're asking, Is there any faith that can give us that? Is there any religious faith that can support it not just by its word, not just by it's a certain individuals

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or a number of individuals that say near each other? Is there a scripture that can also not only underline it, but also model it? Now we've looked at the scripture of Islam, today, we've looked at a number of verses, we could have looked at 149, since that's the paradigm and that's the revelation for Muslims. I have it it behooves me to find any real sense of peace there. Despite what Abdullah has done tonight. He's done a great job trying. Well, he didn't really defend the Quran. In fact, he stayed away from the Quran. Most of tonight, he spent most his entire time attacking my scriptures. And that's telling right there, because for Muslims, this is one of the most difficult areas for

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you. And I can understand, I wouldn't know how to defend this. If I were looking at your scriptures. And I've looked at your Scriptures for 27 years, I've had to study them. We need to learn to look at scripture. And I've looked at mine as well. And I thank God, that we're not, we're not ever we're not saying we would never stipulate that this therefore gives a one scripture as the Word of God over another. All we're saying is, which scripture is the scripture of peace? Which man is the man of peace? I only have one answer.

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The scripture that's the scripture piece is pretty clear. Right through the prophets, who point to the man of peace, the person who comes and fulfills those prophecies Jesus Christ, it's quite clear to me that he not only lives it, as I've been saying over and over tonight, but he embodies it, he speaks chef's, he doesn't let those who are even supportive to use violence. The man appeases Jesus Christ. Does that make him the that they got him off? No, that's not what we're working to. Now, we're not arguing with Jesus God. That's for another debate. That's for another time.

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We're asking a much more simple question. If Jesus is that man, then is he relevant for today? Is he the man that you would rather follow?

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If Mohammed when he asked people to use the sword over and over again, when he participated in 27, violent campaigns himself? Is that the paradigm for peace today, when he eradicated over 25, people whose who stood against him, and some of their crimes was only poetic poetry? Is that the man of peace that you want to call it today? That's the simple question we're asking tonight.

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I give you Jesus is the only man I know, that answers that question. And that's really a much more simple question. Certainly, you have to decide yourself which one you would rather follow. And I hope, I really hope you come home to Jesus Christ.

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But not just because he's the man of peace.

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Because he's the man of peace, who is always promised to bring peace for eternity.

01:23:59--> 01:24:35

Just very quickly, the amount of rape, rape cases which are punished in this country, about five to 7% of those reported, so all the reported rapes, there are five 7%, which prosecution, I think you could do with more semicolon this country to increase the conviction rate, because the judge when he's prosecuted for hiraga, he will take those the testimony of the woman only doesn't need to have all the testimonies and you could take all the evidence into consideration. So that so I didn't say she only needed four witnesses on the different legal structure within the Islamic framework, there is no way that she can get justice for herself and very aptly.

01:24:37--> 01:25:00

You said that basically, I haven't quite many verses from the Quran. There's there's many verses from the Quran which says, For example, defend the cause, but don't fight them until there's no more and famous for God but if they cease, then there is to be no aggression against except the oppressors. So Islam believes in fighting oppression wherever it raises its ugly head. Unfortunately for J. Smith, he believes in appeasing oppressors like

01:25:00--> 01:25:10

Hitler would still be alive probably, and it would cause oppression around the world. And I'd like to see how in J. Smith World Peace is bought by allowing the Nazis to attain their goals.

01:25:16--> 01:25:23

If Islam is a religion of peace and protect the rights of even unbelievers, why do Christians get killed in Islamic countries?

01:25:29--> 01:26:07

Well, firstly, I'm going to relate somehow to the Prophet Mohammed first and this was all part my presentation. So this gives me a little excuse to mention it. The Prophet Mohammed Salaam Salaam said, regarding non Muslim citizens, which live in an Islamic State, he says, and they could then meet people on the contract people on the covenant, which is what Rousseau, the philosopher said that we all citizens will under contract the state of Mohammed said, Whoever has harmed the me has harmed me. How much do the Muslims love the Prophet Mohammed salam, how much should we give our lives to defend them how much we would we we wouldn't tolerate anyone to hurt him and harm him. But

01:26:07--> 01:26:17

he said, anyone who's harmed a non Muslim living in the Islamic State has harmed me. He also says whether oppresses a person on the covenant

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who imposed upon him something more than he can afford or humiliates him or takes anything from him without his consent, I will oppose him on the Day of Judgment. And again, Richard W. Juliet's, notice in his 2004 book, the case for Southern Christian civilization, he says, my newly studying case of the case, they have shown that justice was generally method out impartially, irrespective of religion, official status, gender, and even though not being subject to Sharia law, Jews and Christians were free to go to their own religious authorities for adjudication of disputes. But in many cases, they went to the Islamic judge, instead,

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they stopped the countries now are not Islamic countries. The Caliphate as he said, doesn't exist. What we have now are usurper regimes regime, which are tied up with dictators, regimes, which will oppress me as much as they will oppress a Christian or a Jew for how because a lot of opinions I hold, and if I was expressed them in a lot of our countries, I'd get oppressed, I'd get locked in jail, I probably might get executed and so on. But if you look at if you say, oh, but there are some violence that sometimes there are some cases we hear about or non Muslim being attacked in a Muslim country. There is the same case, as you see in America and in England, of Muslims being attacked,

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women being being raped. It was a case of Scotland, who was raped by a bunch of Scottish guys calling her Paki. It happens, a Sikh guy was killed because they thought that he was a Muslim had a terminal in his head, and more than once known as the famous case, we know what happened again and again. These are the problems they happens in the West. Do we say that because Christianity or secularism is you know, these are criminal elements, which we all condemn. It's all against Islam and the Prophet Mohammed said to us, whoever has harmed they may have harmed me. And we I will not tolerate a non Muslim being harmed in the Muslim countries as much or tolerate the problem of having

01:28:07--> 01:28:10

himself being harmed and all Muslims share my sentiment.

01:28:14--> 01:28:56

question of why is it so many Christians are killed in Muslim lands needs to be addressed? This is a growing problem. And there are many organizations that deal specifically with this problem. You don't find reciprocated in Christian countries, Muslims being killed like you do in Muslim countries and there's a whole litany now excuses these is not to kill off during the kill off but it was such a rosy picture. Let's look at the kill off. Let's just look at the last one. The automatic kill effect which was eradicated in 1924. Look at night in 1683. In 1822 27,000, Greeks remastered massacre 1840 to 10,000 Assyrians, Christians were massacred 1847 30,000 Syrian Christians are

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decimated at 60 28,900 Lebanese were slaughtered all of them Christians 1876 12,000 Bulgarian Christians were put your 1894 300,000 Armenians were killed in 1915. Less than 100 years ago, there was 1.5 million Armenians killed all of them Christians don't tell me that the caliphate brings peace, not to Christians, not to my

01:29:21--> 01:29:28

last question today, how do you respond to Abdullah's allegation that when Jesus returns he will bring?

01:29:30--> 01:29:43

Yeah, this is a good question to end off and because when you look at the whole history of God with literally dealing with mankind, God has promised that there will be violence and he started with by density use as I said earlier in my talk,

01:29:44--> 01:29:52

he certainly use violence against Sodom and Gomorrah. You'll find that also in the Quran. Sodom Gomorrah referred to in Surah 11

01:29:54--> 01:29:59

verses 78 to 82 in Surah, 50 look at is 76

01:30:00--> 01:30:42

Surah 26 look at 174, you will see that took the title and manipulation of people's in Surah 11 verse 78, even says that Locke gives his girls to be raped by the people there in Sodom. So certainly the enormous amount of violence that we see that they've been we've been talking about in the Old Testament is also found in the Quran. God does use violence and eradicates entire populations has done so right through history. We're not permitted to do that today. We don't follow that paradigm. But one very simple reason we follow Jesus Christ, at the end of times, God will revive once again, we will participate in that we will watch it from a distance, we will not at all

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have to participate, that will be the angels who will bring violence for those who disobey God for those who do not follow what Jesus did. For those who do not accept what God did when he came 2000 years ago, and died on the cross. That means everyone in this room has to acknowledge where you stand on that issue.

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Now is God permitted to use whiteness, only God is permitted to use violence for a very good reason. Only he is omnipotent. Only he is omniscient. Only he is omnipotent. I'm sorry, omnipresent. Therefore, because he is all three of those armies, as we call them. Only he is capable of understanding where real sin is. Only he is therefore legitimately able to eradicate that sin. We give God that responsibility. Both Muslims and Christians do that in your scriptures and in mind, because God is able to do that we should not question if he does do that at the end of times, and remember, the end of times is going to be bidets. Look at revelations. It's very difficult book to

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read. But the book of Revelation is very clear, there will be violence.

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We will not participate in that we have nothing to do with it, that only God can do. I let God do what is rightfully is.

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Basically, what you just made, is that piece is not possible in mobile mode, we have to wait for Jesus. And so he's actually admitted that he's lost the debate because we have to wait for Jesus to come to do that. As for the as for the ultimate

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Grandmaster because I've never heard of this before. I'd like references for that. But to take him up very briefly, he said that when the Jesus comes in his final judgment upon mankind, Krishna will just be spectators. Not so revelation 18 one to seven was it say? It says avoid that I heard a lot of voice from heaven say come out of her my people. So that you will not share in a sense on so so then it goes on to say give back to her the whole of Babylon or the the Babylonian regime it give back to her she has given power back double what she has done makes her a double portion of our own cup give her as much torture and grief as the glory and luxury she gave herself. And all sorts of

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what else he said about this is God judgements God's judgment. You have to be imitators of God. The Christian is commanded to be imitators of God. And that's the real scary part.

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I've made my case against Christianity and again, cuz j Smith, we're having a blast sponsor can't respond to any of his points he brings up unfortunately. But I would like to finish off a bit of the issue my presentation on Islam, I want you to see something.

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Our belief in spirituality and the Quran verse of surah, verse 41, say if you love Allah, we love God obey me, Frank, the prophet Mohammed, Allah will love you and forgive your sins. Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

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JOHN 1423 and the New Testament says Jesus replied, If anyone loves me, he will be my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. So you see, this is no similarity. I know Bill, we see progress today, my apologies. But that she is actually more similarity than there is actually difference. And the similarities in the moral and spiritual teachings are virtually identical. Even the verses there is not the exact wording of course, there won't be exact wording, but the teachings or the meanings of this wording is identical in both phases. This is my experience of researching both Islam and Christianity.

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For example, in that we have a relationship with God.

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But our relation with God is not listening to whatever voices we hear in my head and thinking it's the Holy Spirit and doing it and maybe causing more trouble. You know, the path to hell is paved with good intentions. That's the kingdom because the Christians don't really have any guidance. We have a guidance of our God is a loving God.

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It's all our gods is the God of Abraham, of course, my God, other than loving God is not so much he's given us guidance. If you are a father or a mother and your parents, you're gonna say I love my child. I let him do what he wants. The child knows I want the best for him. So let the child do what he wants because

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I trust him and will ever know you can tell. Don't stick your head in the oven. It's bad. Don't jump into the into the furnace is bad. Don't you know that type of thing you can fly into a cliff, that's bad. You're going to tell the child what not to do to prevent that child from self destructing and from hurting other children are not gonna child, you've got many children, you have a child but not a child, you say don't do that's wrong.

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And this is what the proverb say, obviously, if you spell the road, and so you don't make your child because sometimes you have to, quote the Old Testament New Testament together, look at it holistically, you have to chastise because you love political tough love the Christian Christian was a tough love. And this is what Islam is. Islam is love. It is caring, it is mercy, it is compassion to your neighbors. It is that the Prophet Mohammed have said that if you go to sleep, while the neighbor is hungry, you don't have any faith. You don't have faith. The Prophet Mohammed said this. There is a lot of similarities between Christianity and Islam. But we also have a law system. And

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the reason why I have no system is because God tells us how to live by the law of love how we implement the law of love.

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This is what we use when the Prophet Muhammad and the Quran forbade interest. Why was that? It's because interest causes causes problems causes trouble causes concentration of wealth was poverty. People in an economic economy with good intentions can still create poverty, even though they have good intentions, you know, making business or making profit for yourself, right making profit for yourself. You know, you're not thinking you're not doing anything wrong, but making profit for yourself in a corporation or a company, you might deprive someone else of resources. How do you solve that? Islam? Islam says that men have a positive free things, you know, house, food, clothing,

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water, greenhouses, there's so many hobbies the Prophet Mohammed has said is belongs to collective humanity, not just the Muslims, but not Muslims, collective humanity copy on privately these resources which benefits whole societies have to be public property. It regulates these things. As Christians, you say you pray to God to give us this day our daily bread. Well, Islam is God's answer to you, here's your daily bread, you will not go hungry. When you say deliberate mind the temptation. What is Islam Mansa Islam says right, then we will prevent place of lewdness, women going around naked, and so on. Because we're going to prevent you from going temptation. God is

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answering your prayer. And also at the same time, you also have to hold it in your heart to look down and to guard your modesty. So there is moral heroism in from an individual and society. There'll be elimination of temptation.

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You know, deliver us from evil. Islam fights against the oppressor. Islam rise up against the oppressor when he quoted, sort of 929 we said, wasted the fighting of the fight. Those are the top read a few verses after that are the Jews and Christians, which is because they have rabbis and priests to whatever they think they make as their lords and these rabbis and priests, you serve people's money, take people's money, consume it unfairly. These are the people we're fighting against. And the Prophet Mohammed said, the Christ says, Take notice notice of war, from Allah, His Messenger against interest and those who don't interest and so on. This is why we fight we fight

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because we're responsible. We fight because we love the week, the oppressed, we want to protect them, Goddess, we have the weak and oppressed. And I think that Islam can bring by limiting injustice and oppression, it can bring true peace and justice to the world, the thing that the Christian will have to wait for Jesus to bring. Thank you.

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Which is the religion of peace, Islam or Christianity. That's the question we've been asked to speak on tonight. That's the question we've been asked to answer for each one of you. I think Abdullah for the good job he has done. I think he's done an excellent job. And I hope you give them a good round of applause afterwards. I think it's important that Muslims ask these questions. Not too many Muslims will go into this kind of debate and Avila must be admired and also must be congratulated for doing that tonight. I think he has struggled a few times tonight because it is difficult when you look at these scriptures. And I think that's why he stayed away from those verses, dealing with

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beading of women, dealing with the cutting half off the hands of fees, he stayed away from those verses 24 which talks about beating 100 lashes to the adulterous these are difficult verses to exegete. To understand in a 20th century or 21st century environment here in Europe, they are not meant for this century. They are meant for a seventh century environment in which they were created. That's why it's difficult to understand how you can take that book that was written in the seventh century and kick it bring it kicking and screaming into the 21st century. But interestingly, we don't have that problem with New Testament. We don't have that problem at all.

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I said this for me almost 27 years I've asked people look at Jesus Christ.

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Show me anything irrelevant about Jesus Christ.

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He's beautiful. I love Jesus Christ because he is the most relevant man

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In 27 years I've never heard anybody say something wrong about Jesus Christ. Muslims come up to me all the time say why do you think and slag up Mohammed what we love Jesus? Why don't you love Muhammad? I say that's the point. That's the whole point. Everybody loves Jesus, even you have to love Jesus. What's there not to love about Jesus? He is so relevant for today and the way he dealt with violence, the way he dealt with people who violated is the way I have to deal with violence, you ask over and over again. So where are those structures that stipulate how to take care of that these were those structures in Christian the Stickley how to take care of the adulterers. God has us

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to love the adulterers, to love the homosexuals. We aren't permitted to beat them.

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Thank God. Jesus said that.

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to hate the sin but love the sinner.

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Once more look at the whole history of Christianity. For the first 300 years we had it right. For the first 300 years we never use the sword we never dominated. We were always the minorities. I have to put the blame on Constantine. I said that earlier. I'll say it again. And since Constantine brought the two together and create a church state theocracy, that's where everything got wrong. But thank God we went back in the Reformation we've finally read wrenched it through, but even man men like Martin Luther still got it wrong. Well, that's why people who are my forebears, men like Michael slaughter, and Holmes Gribble were executed by men like Martin Luther and Calvin, who you

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quote tonight, I don't go to Martin Luther Calvin, because what they had done to Scripture, they don't look at the New Testament. They don't understand Jesus Christ in His completeness. And what's really beautiful, is when you look at the last 2000 years, look and see when we have grown the fastest, and look and see when we have been the strongest. It's when we have been persecuted. We are to be persecuted. Look at Matthew 10. The whole chapter is what Jesus promises to the 12. He said, you're going to be flogged, you're going to be hated, you're going to be persecuted, you're going to be jailed, you're going to be killed. That's the commissioning of the 12th. And that's what every

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one of us Christians in this room are being commissioned. We are commissioned the same way the disciples were commissioned. And I look at the early church and I see what happened to the early church. They were persecuted. Every one of the disciples was flogged, every one of them was persecuted. Every one of them was hated. They were all put into prison, and every one of them was killed except for john.

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That's their legacy. That's my legacy. The church is not here to violate anybody else. We will always be a minority. We will always be in every color. But in fact, we thrive under the khilafah. We thrive in every state, we have thrived the last 2000 years. look today at the examples of where the church is growing the fastest today, in China, and Iran. The church is growing the strongest and the fastest. Why? Because they're being persecuted. That's the whole point of what we've been saying today.

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We are not to bring the sword, the sword is going to be against us. Matthew 10, verse 34, for hypercom, not to bring peace, but I have come to bring the sword I have come to set father against son and mother against daughter look and see the application what Jesus was saying that's in the same chapter. He said, you're gonna be flogged, hated, kill and persecuted. He was basically saying the swords can be used against us. That's what it takes to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. The sword will be used against us.

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That's my promise for you today. I'm not promising an easy thing. I'm not promising that when you follow Jesus Christ, it's gonna be hunky dory and you're gonna be able to dominate the world like Islam promises you I'm saying that you're actually going to have to live as Jesus live, and maybe even die as Jesus.

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Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. That's his promise. That's my promise. Come home to Jesus Christ.

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Thank you all for coming. This degree will be available on wwe.com.

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Good night.