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Interview with Dilly Hussein on Blood Brothers Podcast
Channel: Yasir Qadhi
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Salam aleikum wa rahmatullah wa barakato. My dear brothers, sisters, friends and yes, the foes out there. Welcome to another episode of the blood brothers podcast with your host, Dr. Hussain. Before I introduce today's esteemed and eroded guests who's joining us all the way from Dallas in United States, I want to remind all our avid listeners and followers and viewers to subscribe to the five pillars YouTube channel, and to find us on all the usual audio podcast platforms. Today's guest he is a established and celebrated historian, a theologian and academic, one of the most influential figures in the Muslim that I was seeing in the Western world. He is a resident scholar of an epic
mosque, epic being the acronym for the East Plano Islamic Center in Dallas, and he is the Dean of the Islamic seminary of America. And that is none other than chef Dr. yasir Qadhi. Assalamu Aleikum? Wa Alaykum wa rahmatullah wa barakato. I ask Allah azza wa jal that all of these titles actually mean something on the Day of Judgment. And in this world. These are simply words that you say most important is our actions and floss. And every time somebody reduces with all of these lengthy titles, we have to be very clear here that these titles mean nothing on the Day of Judgment. May Allah xojo grant us all your hellos and tacos. So this it was, I don't like these long titles.
Anyway. Sharla. Let's hope you're doing well. today. I think we have met once. I think in the past half we have met very briefly once in the past, you have been interviewed by my colleague, Russian Sala, many, many years ago for Press TV. I didn't know that. Okay. Yes, he is indeed. And of course, we have many mutual brothers between us from the hamdulillah. We've got a lot to cover today, a lot of ground to cover. But what I tend to do with guests who happen to be people of knowledge, I like to warm up the session with some quickfire questions, right?
I want you to think of a boat journey that you go in on seven days on a boat journey. And you have to take one of the two individuals with you on this journey. Now, some of these figures are historical, they have passed, some are still alive. Some of the answers I think I'm expecting I think I guessed right but others I'd be interested to know who you would choose. And you do have the opportunity to just briefly elaborate on some of the choices if you feel the need to you're ready. Okay. Let's well okay. Seven Days boat journey. 10 companions, Mr. Mohammed bin humble, are you Mama sheffy
you're gonna get me into trouble, bro. Common common, and you can't say boffi constantly there has to be one of the two show common seven day journey you need to spend seven days with them.
A mama humbled because I would want to narrate a hadith to him and just get the Baraka of listening and narrating a hadith. Throughout your throughout your adult life and your journey in pursuit of knowledge. You have genuinely if I'm correct, please correct me if I'm not identified as humble, like most of us. Yes. And that's why I wanted to make the clarification is not because of the issue. If it was for the field issue, frankly, I would have chosen remember Shafi but simply to get the bulk of the Hadith of the Prophet so seldom, I would have chosen him for this hypothetical theoretical journey. Okay. Obviously, I know you know, when it comes to your lectures me personally,
I very much enjoy your historical lectures martial arts or particle law. So I have to throw in some historical figures there as well if you had to take one of the hola for Omar Abdullah Abdullah Aziz Harun al Rashid.
Frankly, I would choose how to Rashid simply because the fact that he was at a later stage means that he was exposed to more types of interactions with other civilizations and had to make more difficult decisions. In terms of piety. Of course, the disease would be the ideal in between those two, but I would be more my curiosity would be piqued by the circumstances of the early buses. So I would choose hodl noticias,
Salahuddin Allah UB Aslan.
Again, I'm going to be going out on a limb here, because we don't know that much about our salon as compared to salahaddin. I personally would have choosen chosen Alper salon because of course, again, in terms of grandiose and whatnot, what I had to accomplish cannot be compared but I will per salon is a unique individual with a very exotic background right. So I head up is mainstream Kurdish out or whatnot. person is coming from the far left
Just making a impact so me personally, yeah, I would have chosen that. Of course. I never thought about these questions. This is intriguing. Okay. I'm sure this is one that you've had before. Or one maybe you have even fought by in terms of your study periods. Mm hmm. Sally. Oh jacobin Tamia. So obviously, there's no question that my personal Association would want me to be with him and Timmy if that's the only opportunity that I have, there's no question. I mean, I would love to pick him up because it is brain but you can't compare like I the the total via that I've had for the last 25 years obviously, they've been Tamia. I still view him despite all of my critics say I still view him
as being the shareholder Sam and the person that I ascribe to the most overall my ideology is a me and so how can I possibly give it about the opportunity to be with the you know, the legend himself? Okay.
So 1040 or sold on orange, Zeb? I'll come on out on segment I come on, and they see by blood, you know, like, that's just whatever father has done but to meet
one of the salons of the Mughal Empire and definitely, I mean, that's a no brainer for me. Okay. Omar matar or Imam Shamil.
Hmm, that's, that's a good one. That's a good one. We're getting close to our time, either either one. Well, there's no need to
choose one. You have to choose one. Yeah, I mean, I would personally I'm going to move towards simply because Okay, so again, both are very similar, but because our moto matar was against the Europeans, and because we are more connected to Europe and Europeans, I would feel more at home listening to his stories and benefiting from him. Obviously, you know, him I'm Xiaomi was against the Russians and whatnot. inessa different civilization that we me and you and others haven't directly interacted with to the level that we've interacted with Europeans. So very, very bizarre point, but I would choose somebody that whose stories I could relate to more if you get my drift.
Jamal is Dean Afghani. Oh, Mohammed Abdullah. I mean, Afghani, I don't really
I don't think there's much that I would have benefited you know, from him. I think he's a very interesting character to study but I have little desire even up to I mean, the both of them are interesting. I don't really, I don't disrespect them, but I don't have the level of respect I would do for the next generation. You know, so obviously, there she is somebody that I actually connect with a lot personally. So I really so because of that I've had more impact under law than of money. So I would choose Abdo for that reason. But yeah, not that much of a difference. Okay. In that case, I should read all about Alamo duty.
Again, the rasheeda is a bit more exotic for me. He's a generation before Modi, Modi, actually, I have a personal connection. My father was, you know, met him number of times. It was his part of the organization. So my father was a part of Jamaat in the 50s in Pakistan, okay, so and I've met many of his students, his sons, I know them personally. So he's not as exotic of a figure for me, especially the doula so I'd have to choose a cheerleader for that reason. Also, with utmost respect to modu, the great person, but she was an alumna, and he he had studied whereas, you know, Modi, may Allah have mercy and bless him and whatnot he was self taught is a very big difference between the
two or to Allah Azzam on Mullah Omar
exam without a doubt, exam without a doubt he is a legend. Okay.
Bringing a very closer to home and closer to our time. Your mom Omar Suleiman or abou Isha Mottola. Ah, you're gonna get me into trouble, bro. You know, in America, we have the constitution and there's something called the Fifth Amendment right? The Fifth Amendment means you don't have to incriminate yourself so I'm going to call the fifth year and I'm going to say I refuse my constitutional rights. The both of them are Habib and dear friends and if I were to choose the one over the other, I'm never going to hear the end of it as long as I live. So I'm going to choose my constitutional Fifth Amendment and Zipit. Okay, so then in that case, since you've taken the fifth,
you have to allow me to ask you a sub question in that regard, which of which of our two dearest Michelle, of the two tend to hold you to account more with regards to your public works? That's something that is separate from the first question, and it is aboard Isa for one simple reason that I've known him for way longer. I'm close friends with both but I've known about Isa, while we were both students when he was in Mauritania, and I was in Medina, he would come visit you know, and in Egypt as well. And so we've known each other since we were students of knowledge. I mean, it's been 25 years and I go a long time knowing each other you know, Where's Mr. Cinnamon, I've only you know,
we've got to I mean, he's obviously much younger than the both of us he's a decade or so, decade or so younger and he, we only got to know each other after I had returned from Medina and we're both active and that will so
That level has not been established for that reason, but he is a good friend of mine. So I will I will not let the views or listens to decide based on the fifth and on that explanation of who you might if it was a life and death situation.
Last but not least, your 10th companion, who would you take? Mostly Tapi osmani? Or shall Shall
I wish you had added one more person, and the one that I consider my main mentor that is still alive, that is just so mad that I will do but you didn't bring him in the May Allah facilitate his release arm on me. You know, I'd have to say Chicago is simply because he's a generation older than moved to Tokyo. And so there's a lot more to benefit from otherwise, they're both at a caliber that I respect and admire, but simply because you have called always 30 years older, he would automatically get the respect that that age brings about, okay, dissolve. Okay, how did you how did you find picking your guests for this hypothetical boat journey? I've never I've never had this,
break icebreaker done to me so interesting. It's an interesting exercise, and inshallah I benefited and they shot it in a future maybe in the future q&a that I do. I'll also take this copyrighted version of an icebreaker and then choose figures that are even more controversial. If you like, you tried to choose some umbrella, you didn't go too far.
hamdulillah Listen, let's kick today's podcast off with a an area of conversation which you have discussed in great detail. Previously, in previous podcasts, like our season one partners, the Mad mom looks when you did the most recent episode with them, I believe it was last year at some point. And that's your journey through what is generally understood to be Sophia, or the or the Salafist movement, or nezzie da. Now there's various words and terminology and also acknowledge that it's a spectrum. And it would be unfair to kind of compartmentalize those labels to a spectrum of different groups and views and so forth. But isn't every which you've discussed in great detail?
Why would you say that this area of conversation is something that you have chosen to speak quite openly about of late in recent years.
Two reasons, number one,
I feel that I owe it to my students, whom I taught ideas and concepts that I now no longer subscribe to that I explained to them, why I have changed my mind, and I leave it to them, whether they want to continue with the ideas I taught them, or they want to follow the new positions that I have, it's up to them.
So I feel that there's a lot of conversations taking place, and it's my house upon my students to clarify to them because I'm the one who introduced
10s of 1000s, maybe even hundreds of 1000s via my books and lectures. And you know, the first detail shot a half gigabit or eight in English, I did it back in 1995 96. Only on audio, it's not even on video, you know, cacheable hearts, I mean, teaching what I taught for you know, my theology classes for a solid 15 years, basically from 1995 96 kibito hate, you know, all the way to around 20 2010 or so is when I really like you know, rethought you know, certain things and whatnot. So over this entire timeframe, I have been teaching 10s of 1000s of students online, in person via publications. And then I have slightly modified I'm not like rejecting 99% of what I was upon. It's just like
certain, you know, very controversial issues with still important ones I've modified and they feel that that wasn't correct what I taught them. So it's my responsibility to explain and clarify, it's up to those who took from me in that phase, whether they want to take this face or not. It's not a big deal, whichever one they choose. That's the first reason. The second reason is that I feel that certain concepts, it's related to the first one certain concepts that I used to teach and that are mainstream in those segments of the nosy Dawa are to put this gently detrimental for Muslim unity. And in order for Muslim unity to be achieved, these types of questions need to be asked and answered
head on regardless of my own personal history, right regardless of me as yesterday called in 1995, and 2000 ever. These are issues that, in my humble opinion, people who subscribe to them with certain understandings will problematize forming alliances with other Muslims at a time frame when we most need those alliances at a time for more Muslim unity is of paramount importance. There are certain theological questions that are going to impede and hamper such unity and if you subscribe to those
Other understandings of Islam, then the logical consequence is that you are not going to prioritize any type of bond with your fellow Muslims whom you feel are committing acts so shidduch or major bit out of Kufa whatnot. So for the sake of the problems that we're facing as an oma and I firmly believe one of the ways and this is the ironic fit way as well, that what that xR is that will fit up shadow right yet the law here and Gemma, right, the whole point of coming together, cooler about the law, he is one as the professor
giving, given the fact that we're facing so many controversies and issues and political problems across the globe. I really feel passionately, that such misunderstandings need to be corrected, or at least clarified because some people are never going to change their mind. That's, that's up to them. But those that are interested should hear. And as somebody who's been through the process, and who knows, what needs to be said and how it needs to be said, because I've experienced it myself, I feel that there is a type of obligation on me to at least attempt in a gentle manner, in a reasonable manner in a manner that understands the mentality of people of a certain mindset, because
I was one of them. And I respect that and I respect my teachers, even as I have gently moved on. I've never ever criticized my alma mater, or my machete or anything of this nature. But yes, I have certain positions that I have moved on from and I think that they should be clarified for the sake of betterment of the oma. So these are the two main reasons that I think that it is important that such conversations take place.
Upon. I want to ask you, your personal feelings, your inner thoughts. I don't want to rehash or regurgitate your real Galvez on the conversation that you've already had on various platforms. Is there a feeling of guilt that you've had during your journey of change and reformation in certain aspects and we're talking about Islamic reformation if our listeners and viewers not talking about secular liberal reformation, the reformation of a character or someone who's gone through a journey of pursuing knowledge, have you ever felt guilty about the hundreds and 1000s prospective students that you may have taught? And they know? No, that's not the right word. Responsibility is the word
not guilt. The reason why I don't feel guilty is because I didn't do a crime. I didn't do anything wrong.
One thing that I seek Allah's refuge from and inshallah I say this with humility without any boastfulness one thing that I feel insha Allah tada ask Allah that it is true what I say, I have always taught Islam, the way that I believe that it should be taught not for public pandering, not for political correctness, not for gaining popularity or votes, whatever I said about Islam about any photo about any position that I gave, I genuinely believed at that phase of my life that this was the religion of Allah subhana wa tada because insha Allah and I hope this is I hope I'm not trying to, I hope it's kind of it's in me, I believe that I have to answer to Allah for what I've
said. And so whatever I say about the deen has to be done with a clean conscience. So at any phase of my life, whenever I taught whatever I did, I did so believing it to be the truth, and Allah azza wa jal will judge people based upon their knee yet. So when I taught to get up at tauheed, I genuinely believed that that version of Islam was the correct version. And my Misha and my teachers and everything is an entire system that I'm from, it's not I'm the one who I'm not the one who invented it or not the one who produced this, I'm a product of a certain movement, and I basically champion that movement, basing my knowledge on the knowledge of people far more pious than me, and
far more knowledgeable than me, right? And I'm a mere student of knowledge from their teachings. So I taught in good conscience, then it became clear to me that certain aspects again, people read in too much I have never rejected the entirety of the authority creator so that's not as ridiculous I am overall still a me and and still sad and whatnot. It's just certain issues, especially of the nose data, our I feel are, you know, problematic, and I say this with gentleness. I mean, I don't want to use any harsh adjectives. I mean, my Michelle, you are good people. But so are Michelle, you have other strands of Islam as well. So our deobandis and so are the roadmap of you know, Judah in
Morocco and the aroma of Hubba EBM, and they're all good people. You cannot base the soundness of a creed based upon the piety of the Messiah who teach it. If we were to do that, then the the bulk of the Sunni Omar Al Hamdulillah is upon piety and taqwa, right, so we need to move beyond emotionalism, and well I'm start straying from your question. Do I feel guilty? No, well, I the word never even crossed my mind. The word is responsibility. That's what I feel responsible responsibility because I was one of the primary figures who introduced this understanding of, you know, a soft version of the set of EDA, NHD data, you know, throughout the late 90s and early
To 1000s, with all of my books and teachings and whatnot, I was one of the main figures of this Dawa for such a long period of time. So the fact that I now disagree with some aspects of it, I feel there's a responsibility on me to clarify and explain but to know, there is not any, I've never felt guilt because guilt means that I've done something wrong. And I don't feel that I've done anything wrong in this regard. Allahu Allah.
So let's pick up on an earlier point that you made, you said that there were specific aspects of that dour of that creed, which can be problematic and the, you know, an obstacle to unity which is something which is paramount in terms of a priority for the Ummah right now. So let's just take some anecdotal example, look at how
this even I'm uncomfortable, the word inertia, I swear to God, I whether it's Salafi are needy, or even Wahhabi, these times, I personally feel uncomfortable, because I know, it covers such a huge spectrum. But we know what we're talking about when talking about a very rigid, non uncompromising interpretation of let's say, a small sifat or tawassul, it still happens and these types of topics which can and all obstacles to Muslim uni, right. So if you're saying, and you've basically said just earlier that that some aspects of these credo points can be an obstacle to unity. So therefore, you know that what you are to have the period of time that now there's a sense of responsibility, to
perhaps give a softer version, an alternative version to remove those obstacles that be then correct. Yes, that is a more accurate way to present it that I believe that some of these issues need to be clarified so that Muslims don't view mainstream fellow Muslim movements in strands with the eye of extreme suspicion or hatred, or with charges of comfort or shidduch, or heresy to the point of no cooperation. What I'm trying to do is to bring about a very frank conversation. And my claim now is that mainstream soon ism overall, is a movement that we should not problematize the internal strands of any mainstream movement that takes the heavy activity and the six hour kind of
Eman as its foundational premises. The rest is then discuss. I'm not saying they're all right. I'm not saying everything is okay. And it's, as they say, hunky dory or sing Kumbaya. But I'm saying discussions of interest, Sunni theological dispute should take place amongst the right people with the right frame of mind and with the right language, these types of discussions should never come down to the street level and must should level and the people that are just living their lives as Muslims, they should not problematize fellow Muslims who have another interpretation that goes back to the society that goes back to a more hostility that goes back to you know, so and so have great
or the amount of the past let academic discussions remain among academic. So and I've said this again, very clearly, unfortunately, as you know, the case people love to extrapolate to a region. No, I've been very consistent in this message. I am not saying all interpretations are okay. What I'm saying is that we need to understand such discussions should not break the overall unity of the oma, we need to learn to have these discussions with the right audiences. Never should the average Muslim who is struggling to pray five times a day be taught to hate another Muslim, have another fiddle thought was also struggling to pray five times a day. That is my main issue of contention.
And that's why I'm very public about this, when you believe that a certain strand is practicing should it can Cofer automatically, you're not going to want to have anything to do with them. That's the net result of what you have been taught. And that is why I am forced to gently because I'm not being harsh here, gently bring up these discussions and say, No, it's not should can Cofer what mainstream movements are doing, you can disagree, I still believe certain aspects or how long, but to say something is how long at least the person is a Muslim? Whereas when you say a chick, well, then it changes everything, doesn't it? So that's why I'm saying these types of discussions need to
be had head on. And we need to clarify and I need to clarify because I have a responsibility. I'm the one having taught some of these aspects. The fact that no, it's not, you know, should what what, again, to be specific here, so for example, to what suit, you know, or asking, and we've had a long I have, you know, lectures. So anyway, I have to say this way, we're not talking about the actual issues if you're interested you can listen to number one the most important is my three hour lecture on on the niche Dr. Woods called, it's on my YouTube channel. You can listen to that it's a three hour long lecture on the next day that our I've talked a little bit about this as well in my first
podcast with the Mad mom looks right there was I think three years ago lit up about this as well. And then also Muhammad hijab interviewed
About my time in Medina, and you can listen to that. So these are the three interviews that I would recommend anybody to listen to to get to the core of what we are skirting around in this interview with you. I've already discussed the core details in those interviews. So the fact of the matter is that the reality is that was you said that these conversations should take place, there is a place for it in the right environment with the right people, and it shouldn't trickle down on a grassroots street mustard level. But the point of the truth of the matter is it did, whether it's the Indian subcontinent, whether it be in places like Syria, with Michel Ramadan, Al booty and others, and his
contemporaries. It definitely took place in the UK. Everyone knows about the naughties. The Tao wars of the 90s in the UK, I'm very sure it did happen. Also in America, the fact the matter is that these theological interest sectarian discussions and debates did take place, can they ever be contained?
No, it can never be contained. The goal is not perfection, that's never going to happen. But the goal is to minimize evil. And if the major dots and the major preachers and teachers simply change their tune, which has happened in North America since the 90s, so they change their tune, and they don't emphasize these interest sectarian disputes, then insha, Allah, the bulk of the oma will be free of them. I'd like to say that America, the Muslim scene here has headed in that direction. Again, I'm a product of the 90s, these sectarian wars you're talking about. I was in the thick and thin of them back in the 90s. Right, I was a part of all of this and that has what shaped me to
understand. I mean, one of the main so again, let me give an anecdote here. When I returned from Medina in 2005, right, there was no question I was a card carrying HD, right, I was preaching and teaching even after what happened. I hadn't changed one iota of my belief about the niche deep down one 2005 2006. An incident happened in an MSA is I shock you called the MSA, where some of our students of the millennium selfie, you know, version, whatever. And some of zaytuna I'll mention names here. So that people understand is a tunas crowd, which is obviously slightly different, that they had a very big verbal clash, and they decided to split up and form to icebox to MSS. This was
on a university campus, okay. And I knew, but sec two degrees of separation, I knew the people involved on the our site, and it really hurt me. Like I realized, bro, that's not we just at that stage, I said, we disagree with them, but not to this level. But then I thought to myself, can I blame these two, you know, teenage groups for getting to this level, when they're constantly hearing rhetoric from us and from their teachers of this nature? Can I really blame them for wanting to just break away thinking that each one is moved out there and bored and will do, and that's when I reached out to him mumsie Chakra This is early 2006, to vamos a chakra, and began a series of
conversations that eventually led to something again, it's gone now in history, but it was called the pledge of mutual respect or something. This is like a document that we signed between many of our, you know, preachers and teachers and those of you know, the Sufi ashati camp at the time, where we basically said, Hey, guys, we're not going to prioritize sectarian differences, you know, and at the time, I was a card carrying like, you know, knows the through and through, but I realized that we cannot prioritize these differences amongst the masses. And that was simply because of the the the environment that I found myself in to see that people are going to literally break away from one
another form different massages, and form different MSA is based upon a man because I didn't even remember Tamia. No, that's not Islam. But that's what's going to happen when you constantly keep on telling them, oh, you know, these people are bald, and we'll build in a little bit. And the ashad are like this, or they say the hashtag, we're like this, you have to minimize that rhetoric. I think we both learned from the 90s and then 911, and all of the backlash that happened and whatnot. And inshallah, these days, at least in the North American scene, we really don't have a mainstream preacher who is still upon that 90s version, because we've realized that it doesn't make any sense
to be isolationist and to burn all their bridges with one another. No, our, what unifies us is far, far more than what splits us apart. And the Kadima is the most important thing that unifies this even if we disagree about a small Suffolk or we disagree about certain aspects of the soul and whatnot, those disagreements should not lead to the breaking of bonds between the oma as a whole. So again, this is a personal anecdote that it made me realize I need to think things through that led to the journey of trying to understand intellectually, because, again, you're I'm jumping the gun here, but I needed to reconcile in my own mind, how we can form ties with groups of people that I'm
being taught are committing shidduch. You see, my heart is telling me that we need to form both
For the oma and these are people of human and taqwa, I meet them, I interact with them. And they have great precedents when they quote their fatawa to us, or whatever it might be, they have a long list of odema from su T and from, you know, even hajra know, we all of them are allowing this thing, you know, you know, this, I mean, this is well known, right? And yet I am being taught that specific aspects of what they're doing is should can cover. Okay, so how do I reconcile forming bonds with people, whom, intellectually I'm being told, and I believe at that time that this is *. And that's a cognitive dissonance, you're put in a very awkward situation. And this is what forced me to
go back. And really, as I said, with an open mind, think is it really should, what my teachers have taught me, I'm meeting these Muslims, I don't see them as Hindus, I don't see them as pagans, I see them with their email, their toccoa, their tahajjud, their Vicar, I see them and they genuinely love Allah and His messenger. And I see them quoting great roadmap far greater than, you know, many of our movement, for example, and yet, I'm being taught that this you should can call for, and this is why I needed to really reconcile and as I said, it's in my niche, the lecture the three hour long one, I went into a very deep dive in a year and a half reading, rethinking critically what not. And
then, obviously, it became clear to me that you can disagree, and you can say, yes, they should not be doing that. But it's not should whatsoever, the term should, should never be applied to what mainstream odema have endorsed. Throughout Islamic history. That's a very dangerous term. That's a loaded term, do not use the term shidduch or kufr. To describe mainstream Satanism, you can say, I disagree, and it is not correct. And it is a stepping stone. I have said this to share guests, I have said this calling the dead. Well, I don't like it at all. And it's something that really we should not open the door to. But what are you going to do? These are Muslims that have great
precedents, they have great roadmap within our tradition, we're not talking about outside our tradition. And I think you you as well, didn't you moderate a debate? Yes, I did. Indeed. So you've heard the evidence is it's not as if it's coming out of thin air. It's normative, very much normative. Exactly. Yeah, it is normative. That's the point that our, you know, as the brethren fail to understand this, you're talking about the setup, you find whiffs of this in the first. Well, there was sort of the first three generations no doubt about it. Mm hmm. Am I allowed to westville according to many of his own students, right. And then you have a potamia with my utmost love and
respect, saying it's a bit. Okay. Many of the setup allow us to so shall if I may interject,
because you cited it. So when I chaired that debate on the permissibility of tawassul is still hot between Shahzad Rashid, who doesn't identify as a Bradley by Hanafi machete. And then Salvador Hassan, who was obviously, of that persuasion of the Nazi persuasion. I recall, at the very beginning, shatters, thought he said that, look, our issue isn't that you believe is hot on our issues that you believe is *.
Because essentially, what you're doing by extension, here, you're you're making the field and off the field light on us here, you'd call it, you can't open the heart of every single person who visits the grave, you don't know that they're asking the person who's deceased independently to give them x, y, and Zed. So here we are debating, do you believe seeking assistance or aid from the deceased, not independent of Allah? And whatever our argument is, is it should? Or is it haram and I remember when I said it should raise it. And this is why we are here debating exactly my point, if you say it is how long, then you can agree to disagree, and maybe even have a heated debate. But in
the end, you will part as brothers because you haven't made a computer should come. That's my point here. Right? If you say it is *, which is what the nerdy guy was, says, you really you can't form strong alliances with people that you think are basically soft Hindus, I mean, how are you going to do that? You know, and as you're aware, this is what, you know, this is the witnesses that our teachers and I have an anecdote in my, in my lecture that three hour long when I even spoke to, you know, one of their seniors called who has been beja. And I said to him, like, how do you how do you expect us to reconcile, you know, forming bonds with people that we think they're doing shidduch?
You know, I asked him this question, you know, this is me in 2005 2006 problematising, like, Look, what muscle is there? And this is what the knows these say, what muscle is there and forming ties of relationship with people that are not actually Muslims, and they have a valid point from their paradigm. There is no Muslim, politically or theologically, from forming ties with people that you think are competing, Shere Khan Cofer, you understand this point. And that's why for example, anybody who believes the Prophet system is not the final prophet, you know, the group are talking about is I have nothing to do with them. What
Why is there nothing, I have nothing to do with them. I don't want to do anything with that movement, because I don't view them as be
kith and kin to me, right? There are different physical and not not even throw. Sorry. There are different Dean. They have nothing to do with Islam. Okay, now if you're going to say mainstream to so wolf lasallian. So wolf is coffered and shark, right? If you're going to say 90%, of the aroma of Yemen and you know, Morocco and many others had and whatnot, are practicing shidduch, what are you going to do to the oma? And that's why I have to say, at least amongst our circles, that listen to us, I don't get hold of us about this, my lecture series are not about these issues. But for academic audiences. And even in the library test, I said, this is an academic talk, if you're
interested, you'll have the background, we need to clarify that this interpretation of calling it shidduch is a minority one, you can call it how long and you have giants that have called it how long they've been athletes that it's out on my argument. And I know this causes controversy. But I stand by this, it appears very clear to me that Ibn taymiyyah is also upon this position. And that even Abdullah will have misinterpreted Ibn taymiyyah. And I quoted Ibn taymiyyah, as well. And as I said, further research needs to be done because you do find passages that are ambiguous in nature. So we need to compile all the passages and to get a clear cut. But it is very clear to me at least
at this stage, and I'm willing to be corrected or you sit with specialists, but at this stage, it is clear to me that as a default, even taymiyah said it is how long to ask the dead, and it could be shared. And this is the position that I hold, you know, in terms of
so in terms of
matter, you said that look so sometimes someone accepts the hadith of gibreel, les Salaam and the six are kind of Eman. Does that mean these matters of asthma was suffered? And and and it's the heart that the Westerners off of, do you believe this to be for uima as now, as opposed to a very cool creedal matters in the past?
Me personally at this stage of the history of the oma Yes, I do, I do at this stage. What I mean by this is that we do need to be contextual. What I mean by this is that I am not damning the past odema, who made this a big issue, maybe it was for their time and place the right time to discuss this right. But what I am saying is that too many scholars are living in a replicated bubble of their own making. True many scholars make these issues of the past, just as important as they were in the past. They're making them now. And that is a mistake. Because we now have a different set of issues that the past did not have never in the history of the oma have we faced the type of
read going on the attacks of the agnostic and atheistic, you know, attacks on Islam never have are second third generation, you know, en masse, I would say having these chable hearts of the validity of our faith as they do now. So rather than bring up controversies about the sufferance of Allah as origin, let's talk about the existence of Allah to a group of people that are doubting his existence. Let's talk about proving the Prophet of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, to a group that are wondering should he be followed or not? Okay, so the context that we live in brings about a different set of issues now, advanced students in Medina and advanced students in you know,
a deal band and advanced students in us how if they want to come together and talk about Easter Island audition, New Zealand, whatnot, hamdulillah. It's a very useful exercise. And I'm not against and opposed to that, but they should not translate to those academic arguments to their respective masses, and cause the people to hate one another boy, call one another because of these controversies. Before we move on to the next topic of discussion, let me posit this to you. Would you say that your shift in position your I don't want to use the word awakening? I think it's a bit tongue in cheek but but but some of the realizations that you had
come to Would you say that environment forced you to do this or your or your increased observations and experience with other Muslims? Well, that's the same thing. No, because, okay, post 911 did that push you to do it? Because there's a thing in there. There's a thing in the UK here, where
it's like an unspoken thing. But he said a lot. The self is here to tone this stuff down. Because post 911 Paul seven, seven, the the selfies of the wahabis became the target of the CVE operation and and the system. So the environment pushed them to tone down some of the rhetoric. I see what you're saying, No, no, not the environment. The context again,
it's not governmental pressure. It's the realization that we don't have the luxury to be so isolationist. The realization that it is nonsensical for 20 Muslims of a particular set of persuasion to say we are the hora bar and we are the little How can we're not going to prey on anybody else. And this is not
nonsensical. Now, pre 911 you are not forced to think think through the ramifications of being horrible, pre 911 and you are old enough to remember this most of our other audience that wouldn't even know this, but the level of freedoms that we had are unimaginable, you know, pre 911 there was fundraising for the jihad in Bosnia. Exactly. Azam came to America by the way, he talked about Azzam came to America under American supervision and fundraised here in American Oklahoma and other places and the government allowed this, you know, is a different world altogether. So it's not governmental pressure. It's that we were allowed to be blissfully naive. That's really the way I view it. We were
allowed some naivety in terms of our political and theological understandings, post 911, post seven, seven, the government backlash, the worn out off the rise of al Qaeda, the rise of ISIS, all of this, it's like a punch in the face to us like, Okay, do you really believe this stuff, and I've said this in the nursery, that video, the rise of ISIS to me, was a huge wake up call. Because as an academic who taught jihad, this movements in my university, I taught at university, the Western University, Rhodes College, I taught a class on jihad, and I taught a class on radical Islam. And so I'm reading their books and, you know, explaining and whatnot, reading the material of ISIS, it is
very clear that they are quoting the nature of the Dawa, and the first phase of them is that they are indeed, now and what what, it became very clear to me there at the rise of ISIS that, hey, the nice dee da, phase 117 90 1800, and the current movement of ISIS are very, very, very similar. Not exactly the same, but there's too much similarity. And why am I feeling uncomfortable at ISIS, if it is the nerja, as practiced by Ivanovna, will have because the Navy that work is original, and ISIS is original, they go back to the Navy, that what they don't like the third wave of Nigeria, I went over this in my notes, your lectures, or you can listen to that, right? Why am I uncomfortable? If
this is what I actually believe? Because when you see the impact of saying everybody else is a confident mushnik, we're going to execute them, which is what ISIS did, right? Everybody who doesn't follow our khilafah, everybody who doesn't follow our understanding of Islam, automatically, you're Muslim, we can do this, we can do that. And they did it. Why am I feeling uncomfortable? And it made me realize that I need to think deeply about this because if it is true, then I should not feel uncomfortable. And if it's not true, well, then I have misunderstood and so that it was an awakening because of our circumstances, not because of governmental pressure. I mean, insha Allah, I, I seek
Allah's refuge from ever changing the deen because of what somebody else says. But sometimes you realize something because of experience. And to me this was it to see, we don't have the luxury of breaking up the bonds of the oma over classical issues of smell. See, a father is the author or tawassul. And to uncomfortably realize that almost all of the terroristic movements have one degree of separation from nature, the data, whether it's an ecard or whether it's ISIS, what not, why don't we find those movements coming from other strands of Islam, not that other strands are innocent of all crimes, you know, other strands are guilty of subservience to the rulers, you get my point with
Egypt and whatnot. Right. So when I criticize the DA I came from, it's not exonerating other darwaza there's another point that needs to be clear here. Every single strand of Islam has its faults, every single strand of developed, you know, theological, political strand, whether it's the urban design, whether it's, you know, the hubbub of Yemen, whether it's, you know, the Cairo one university with us as how there is no one that's 100%, correct. That's Allah and His Messenger, Allah, is Allah zildjian. every strand has his pros and cons, I have more of a duty to speak about the strand that I came from, because that's me and have the right to say this. Whereas if I start
criticizing other strands that might lead to sectarianism. So where was I completely lost my train of thought? You're talking about you've you've got ground some basis to criticize, yes. The thinking in the background that you came from? Yes. So the reality of the world situation forced me to reassess my theological views. That's what it is. It's not pressure from anybody else and hamdulillah that pressure, even if it increased, I was never jailed, but I was harassed and intimidated at airports and, you know, interrogations, you know, the standard night at post 911 stuff that happened to you know, the the governmental monitors when I traveled here and there every
country I go to, I mean, minor nuisance in the grand scheme of things. I was never put into jail, but inshallah I hope, may Allah protect me from jail. I hope that never would I change my theology simply because of a threat of an external factor. My religion is more precious to me than than that so no, it's not pressure, but it is political context within the oma.
Some have said in the UK, we're lucky we're not making any remote comparison to you but there have been some in the UK who came from that.
background, right? I mean, let's take, shall I'm just saying beforehand, we're not making any comparison. This is an example that we're, we're I'm saying from the UK, if we take the son of chefs or Hey person, that all summer huson, who came also from that background, someone who you have conversed and debated with the very famous debate from many years ago.
He was someone that many have said that when he came into exposure to secular academia, thus when the concerns of Osama Hassan and his ajeeb and of course now we know very clear heretical views became apparent due to the exposure of secular academia. Have you personally have you personally ever felt your exposure, your journey, your experience, your pursuit of knowledge in the secular academic path? has ever shaken or questioned your Islamic foundations or even certain positions with regards to creed and theology? Not Islam? No hamdulillah Al Hamdulillah I've never ever ever doubted the religion of Allah azza wa jal not for one millisecond of my adult life Alhamdulillah and the
reason for this and I don't mind saying this, and I say this inshallah as a love for the Quran not as a praise of me the reason for this is because I memorize the Quran as a teenager, 1314 years old, I think, sorry. 1515. So, when you memorize the Koran, and you're reading it, and you're reciting it at Hamdulillah, shall everyday there's live recitations. I mean, when you do that, the Quran is a protector. The Oran is something that is in the heart of the person. In sha Allah, it's it's it's almost impossible for somebody who recites the Koran to ever doubted it. Maybe there's one in history maybe has happened, but it's not going to happen in sha Allah as a norm, right. So never in
my life. Has there been a shock about the deen of Allah azza wa jal because of the Quran, because of the Koran. There's just no question. interpretations of Islam. Yes, no doubt. I'm not gonna lie about that. No question, interpretations of how we understand something. Yeah. But that's not the religion of Islam. That is an interpretation of a trend.
I said this in the next day that I will lecture, my studies at Yale had nothing to do with my changing my energy that will create that has to do with what I explained to you. But what Yale did do is it taught me tools of contextualization. And what is called critical thinking, I mean, you can call it whatever you will, but
it's an old school of how to study. That's really what it is. It's a paradigm of how you view history of how you view intellectual development. You know, as I said, in other lectures I've given you know, my teachers at Yale did not know Islam better than I did. That's not the reality, but they are exposed to, overall the science of knowledge and the science of history, check on those secular tools be utilized in making sense of the Islamic epistemology or Sami creed, can those tools which not not not fully, for sure, for sure, not fully, but are you going to reject everything that doesn't make any sense because we find many of these tools practice by a member that'd be for
example, okay? The tools of approaching history are free of any ideology or theology. Okay? The tools of approaching intellectual academic development, intellectual developments, is something that has nothing to do with any one religion or civilization. And, again, this is not the time to get into there. But I have given other examples and other lectures that I've that I've spoken about. It's really, it's really something that transcends any one faith or tradition, how we view history. And one point that in my expertise of theology, I greatly benefited from in Medina, for example, you don't really connect the dots when it comes to other civilizations, everything begins historically
from, you know, our big sources. When you break away from only Arabic sources, you can begin to connect the dots with Byzantine with sassanid Empire is with the various trends, pre Islam and post Islam. And an example that I'll give my viewers that are that are watching this, I gave a library chat on the origins of the sifat controversy. Okay, I advise you to listen to that one. On the origins of the sifat controversy, why did those if had become problematic? This actually goes back to intro Christian disputes that were taking place in Syria when the Muslims conquered it, of course, now, we don't really know the details of those disputes from Arabic sources. There are
references Layla and Dimitri said this or so said this or whatever said that there are references, okay. But when you break away from the only Arabic sources and you enter into ancient Greek, ancient Latin or ancient, you know, Aramaic sources, when you start studying other histories, all of a sudden, you begin to connect the dots in ways you couldn't connect from only your own tradition. Why is that problematic? Where would the problem come? If you understood that the sifat controversy is actually something that is emanating from, you know, intra monocyte Christian sectarian debates? Can I can I say where the problem can come You know, when
Just saying connecting the dots. I think the issue that some have said that when you start, I guess breaking away from what's regarded as normative Arabic sources and find to understand the wider reality, and contextualization of that specific discussion at that time, it would be that it wouldn't necessarily be a case for connecting the dots. For those who are fortunate to be firm upon their faith, it'd be the blurring of lines between the dots. If there's a risk, I mean, there's always a risk. There's no question about that. And I do not encourage
Western academia, unless you know what you're doing. I've said this multiple times, I've never encouraged the average graduate of a madrasa or you know what not to just jump into Western, it's a different, it's a different paradigm. You need to know what you're getting out of it. And you need to want to get it out of there. Otherwise, yes, agreed. So if you start historicizing, the Quran or the Prophet system, you have left everything, of course, and that's my line. And I said this in my public lectures, right? The Koran is a divine spark that came down the Koran is Allah's revelation, we do not historicize it. That's the secret of the Prophet sallallahu Sallam as a person as an
individual. He was chosen by Allah azza wa jal. We don't historicize Oh, there are a messianic movements before No. But history, Islamic history that's not divine Islamic history, the oma is the bassets. Okay. These are incidents and events that took place exactly the controversies that occurred in the first century, that's not divine. So, I believe and again, I'm not asking anybody to agree with this is my position, I believe that I am taking the best of both worlds and insha Allah, it's up to the viewers to synthesize and see, listen to my especially my library chats, that's where I really become a little bit more academic, listen to my library chats and judge for yourself. This
is what I'm doing that I believe I'm taking the best of both worlds, but at the same time. And again, I guess I'll make this disclaimer here. Again, I've said this multiple times, and I'll say it very clearly, I do not want to cause any doubt of any issue to any Muslim that is practicing Islam upon an established trend. And with Misha and aroma that he looks up to. So if a person is happy in the trend that they're upon, whether it is the sole wolf whether it is the urban deism, whether it is but Elvis, and even whether it is whatever it might be, and they are worshipping Allah and they're happy and they're and they feel confident in what they're doing good for them. I am not
asking anybody to leave what they're upon and then follow my eye with a beloved version which is not a version No, I am preaching and teaching to a niche audience. It's up to them to take it or leave it I don't want to invite anybody away from an established school so that they doubt their school and then you know, approach to this rather what I have found. There are many Muslims who are intellectually curious and they find my type of teaching appealing to them. That's my audience. Simple as that. I'm not calling anybody away. Even nudge These are what not if you're happy where you're upon, good for you stay where you are. Just don't cause fitna in the oma you want to sell
Sophie's in the bedroom. Don't cause fitna in the oma worship Allah go to your Masjid be pious and righteous support the causes of the oma and inshallah you will all enter Jannah based upon Eman and taqwa and piety, Allah will not cause you to enter agenda because you have a big s on your chest that you are said, if you're an HD, that's not how you enter gender. So I am not wanting to cause anybody's version of Islam to be in doubt. But I'm preaching and teaching in a way that appeals to a certain segment. And generally These are people that are not interested in one particular sect, and they're wanting to be more ecumenical, and they find my teaching to be of use to them. Sure. So
let's, let's, I'm glad you kind of conclude on the point of the disclaimer that you don't want to cause doubts and you definitely you certainly do not want to move people away from established practices of their Deen and so forth. But But let's let's go into not details perhaps if you're comfortable, we can do that later on, but some of the quote unquote controversies, right. And and the somewhat unfortunate context in the way they came to surface right. Before we get to that,
some would argue that whatever it was, whether it was the Juju, ma judge position that you clarified, whether it was your conversation with our Brother Mohammed hijab, regarding the haruf, the Quran and so forth in the preservation of the Quran, and whether it was a two three minute clip that was doing the rounds, but when you were in I believe it was an interfaith discussion. It was about the huddled, whatever it may be, wherever those topics that had caused, quote unquote, somewhat of an uproar in Muslim Twitter Muslim on mine. Do you believe that there is a basis for that a one, to hold people of knowledge to account in the way that has become so normal on social
It is not the health
awam to question the lemma, it is the help of other lemma to question the root lemma.
It is a communal obligation that Allah has placed upon the people of knowledge, because we cannot expect for the iwrm had, if you shall, free might be huge difference which it is in many places India, Pakistan, Malaysia, as you know, where you put your hands becomes a fitna, whether you like it or not becomes a fitna, right. This is what happens when you allow the iwrm to become the police's and enforcers and we see the chaos that is being caused, you know, around the social media, when people who are not qualified to criticize, take it upon themselves to criticize. If and again, obviously, you're touching the personal nerve because all of us are frustrated and irritated.
There's no denying this we're human beings. We're all frustrated and irritated by the rise of you know, a new class of people who let me choose my objectives with care. Ne they display neither knowledge nor wisdom nor Islamic mannerisms. And they are.
I'm using this with care will lie but it's clear that some of them really are fitna mongers, and I don't say this harshly, I say this, factually, they want to cause drama and create controversy when none should exist. And they find clips that are obscure, unknown 10 second clips of emotional demand myself or Easter whatever, and you know, maybe even years old, maybe even the context is very clear. And they'll take it and then spread it with a very, you know, harsh adjectives and words and you know, pagan rituals and coffee, and you know, crypto reformers and whatnot, and Subhanallah any person of any person, even if he came across this would either, you know, understand what the
context was going on, or make an excuse based upon the the entire methodology of the person which is well known with the internet or YouTube, or at the very least, make sure that they understand that this is actually correct and, and make a phone call or find out before making a drama out of it. Right. So this is what happens when proper Islamic protocol does not followed. You don't need to subscribe to Netflix or HBO. Facebook becomes your entertainment session, because of the social drama, and fitna is created when none should have been created. And people become involved in things that are of no benefit to them a man wise, and rather are distractions, and rather bring about a
sense of sin, maybe even by saying things I shouldn't say. And then also I would have been that it hurt. it harms overall preaching and teaching because a sense is created a false sense that all teachers and preachers are sold out. Except for a group of nobodies, to be honest, a group of untrained whatever, these are the people upon the hook. And I've spoken about this as explicitly as I can, in my interview on radicalism with a job, you can listen to that I have many Facebook posts about this issue, but
it is what it is people like you know, to do that. So no, I to answer your question. No, the average Muslim should stick with rouda ma that they like and appreciate, if any are them. And that includes you know, authoritarian like me, brings doubt to them. Abandon that and stick with the people that you trust, but do not create a controversy. And do not speak about others. That's not your role, follow your own ama and worship Allah zoa, Jen, and don't take from people that you feel doubtful about sharing in that case. Let me let me just play the advocate of the other side for a moment. The fact that when these clips statements have been circulated have surfaced years after have been
shared with blurbs that are somewhat vitriolic, and you know, you know, very targeted and so forth. The fact is that when that's happened, clarification statements have been issued by yourself have been issued about Mamata Suleiman have been issued by Professor Jonathan Brown has been issued by Hamza Yusuf when he says he's tired, and therefore he said, So the fact is that when we get clarifications and excuses what it does, and I'm just saying this is that it comes across as so there was some hade in this being circulated share because it forced them to clarify a matter or them to retract on a matter and so forth. That's what the other side would argue to some degree. So
you're the one not you, but you're the one who brought this minor slip up to international media attention, nobody would have known about it. Okay. I'm gonna use this clip, for example, clearly, it was a mistake, clearly, and he himself clarified and the context of it you know, it was taken years before the actual uprising, whatever I'm not justifying. Clearly it was a mistake, but nobody knew about it. Until that 10 second clip goes viral justification is done almost 30 months clip no doubt when I saw it I was like stuffing libre, why would you do that? But I
know him well enough to know that there is no qu furoshiki involved you know there's you do something you don't understand the repercussions he himself clarify but here's the point if that particular person had not found after scouring 1000s of materials that 10 second clip that goes back four years and made a big controversy over it would not have been a controversy. So why create you would you could have called him or said him and tell him bro you have this clip here. I know this is a mistake he would have you know, cut it off of YouTube call us no damage done, but to accuse him of being like a secret motet, you know libation and he's doing pagan rituals. Come on, bro. And you
have some amount and taqwa This is a person inshallah I have no doubt prays to her God, memorize the Quran, what not, you're gonna say he's a secret pagan. So, and with me, of course, I don't want to get personal. But again, the same thing as a crypto reformer with a belagavi. qaradawi is a crypto reformer, he is semi motivated, she acts as a man and I would say these are my Messiah, you know, in terms of filth and whatnot. So accusing me of being somebody who wants to destroy the dean and I have Misha far bigger than me that are saying the exact same thing. And either this person is ignorant, or willfully ignorant, again, so it gets painful because will lie, nobody likes to be
accused in the deen. And this is pure Caleb and both Dan and anybody who who makes these accusations intentionally. I find it difficult to forgive in this world, maybe in the octet I will forgive but after I get my budget, after I get my job fully from this type of slander, because it is slander of the highest magnitude. So I throw it back to you when I say they're the ones who created the controversies in the first place. Now, that doesn't mean every single case should be ignored. But if an average person finds something problematic, they should go to their own teachers their own rule ama, they should go up the hierarchy how it's supposed to be done, have a share or an item or a
thought of it and then contact the person figure out is it worthy to go public and make a you know, a clip that say this is wrong? Or can the damage be done? In the end of the day? Yeah, if you delete look, whether you like it or not, certain individuals are so active in preaching to the masses, that attacking them, is going to attack many of the People's attachment to knowledge. You know, you know, I don't mind saying this.
Should I mention this name or not? Let me just say, because I don't want to get into trouble. One of the most prominent white converts to Islam, senior to me, and age and conversion, leave it at that has certain political stances that I disagree with. I'll just be generic here, okay. And I met him three years ago. And I showered him with praise in a way that it had just briefly met him at heart, I'm not going to mention names. I showered and private me and him and just his students. And I said share for many people, you are the icon of Islam in North America. For many people, you represent the tradition, I gave him so much praise, and it was from the heart, it wasn't something completely
false. And I tried to use that and I say show when people attack you because of your stances, they are attacking the dean and religiosity and her in. And I said this to somebody who might actually disagree with on a maybe 50 or Arkady level as well. But insha Allah, I am in sha Allah, open minded enough to realize that this individual represents a tradition of Sunni Islam. And attacking him is attacking orthodoxy to one level. So I begged him to rethink through his positions, because I understood that the people that are attacking him, many of them are secularists, many of them don't like the deen and they're using him as an example of attacking the religiosity of people. You
understand what I'm saying here?
And also I want to country back to you and I want to say that what about let's put, let's put aside the secular critics, let's talk let's put aside those who deep inside do not love the deen of Islam. Let's talk about those who do have greed of Islam. I would say that. Let's not talk about a specific person who is genuine when prominent scholars of that ilk affiliate themselves to particular states for a particular mindset, that that has real life repercussions on the ground in places like Egypt. It has real life repercussions in places like Libya, it has very large repercussions to do with the censorship and the policing of peaceful charitable organizations in the West. So how much tiptoeing
and how much softness is required when that kind of affiliation and some very valid point, and I don't have an easy answer. To this day.
I have refused to wage online war or battle against these particular individuals to this day. And that's my HDMI that I could be wrong I've ever been tempted to have ever considered it. Yes.
Yes, yes, because
some things have happened in those lands in the rich oil rich countries. And these individuals have said things, it hurts like anything, and you feel like but then and this is a very personal thing, but inshallah I hope there is a philosophy here, I have to question myself, am I doing this so that I can level the playing fields and get rid of other people on the downward playing field for my own ego? Or am I doing this genuinely for the sake of Allah? And that is one reason why I feel maybe I'm not the best person to do this. Because I understand that shaytaan
his was was it could be deep. And I have to doubt my own reasons why I might be doing that. So,
I have erred on the side of caution, and I have been silent even about their teachers, whom I think is much less reason for you to be silent about, even about their grandbabies back home. I have spoken about
the Grand Mufti of Egypt and whatnot. I spoke about the multiple times, but bro dilly, let's be honest here. Why are we concentrating just on those guys, when there are Messiah on our side that have justified the chopping up of a human being in an embassy in a Muslim land? So let's be honest here, let's not play double standards here. There are Misha that quote you Ibn taymiyyah, Abdul Karim and our hub and what not right, and they have islamically justified the brutal murder of a human being in a Muslim in the most vicious manner. Why don't we Why don't make a point of that as well. And all of a sudden Shake Shack Come on, without again mentioned that there is no one as
prominent from that. persuasion. Okay. Agreed. valid point, seldom not valid point. But are you going to be consistent? And are you going to call out your own? Do you feel inconsistency with yourself? No, not with me, because I've already called up the doctor multiple times and logical issues. So in that case, then in that case, you have more premise than not to then be consistent. And then like I said, so like I said, I'm not only that, but
I just feel
the reputation culture that has been created by this group of new
overzealous under edgy Lola, the description of the kawatche comes to mind all the time. So far with academic without us none. Your own credit already does exactly what the President said. abakada rights. And it really, there's an element of that in this new crowd, they think they're defending the dean, and they cause so much damage to the dean. It's kind of scared me that what if I'm doing that at a higher level? Is it really so here's the point D.
Will my warning against that individual accomplish anything? People have already made up their minds? And this track record is clear. Right? Why will my jumping on the bandwagon of critics make anything different? My because you're shocking, also called the today today, right now, coincidentally, I posted on Facebook and Twitter about, you know, the execution of 12 Messiah in Egypt and criticize strongly if you saw that right now. Okay, my position is very clear. Very clear. 100 law consistent. I think that's good enough, I present my opinion. The other side is presenting or not presenting, in this case, its opinion, and is very clear. So I don't need to name and shame
in order to bring my point across. There are ways to do that. Okay, let's, let's get really controversial, but please don't mention names. Okay. No, we want mission we want mission if
there's a certain individual, very popular in England, who has some very esoteric views, I call him a new more intensity, you know, denying things and this and that. Hadeeth and we're very, you know, recently, his house was roughed up, let's say okay, no need to mention dividuals. Now, a number of prominent critics had to issue disclaimers, oh, we didn't mean that to happen. I have indirectly criticized this individual in like half a dozen lectures, I had to issue no disclaimer, because nobody, I mean, nobody could link my indirect overall, you know, criticize, I have a whole lecture about the return of Jesus because of him, because of him the whole lecture, and I even mentioned him
by name in that lecture. But I did not need to issue a disclaimer that hey, my lecture, wasn't it. Why did I need to do that? Because there's a way to get your point across without inciting hatred without an even without even the potential I'm not saying that. Some of the online people caused the ruckus. I know they didn't. But they had to issue disclaimers. I didn't intend for that to happen. I did not have to issue a disclaimer because I don't believe in preaching hatred against an individual because that is potentially lead to violence. So simple points.
After god, there's a way to get your point across without creating drama and fitna, I would hope that I'm doing that in my methodology of teaching. And yes, even calling people out and correcting incorrect understandings of Islam. Those who you have described as having new How did you how did you trace in the way they go about
articulating themselves or you would argue lack of articulation and the way they go about holding others to account people have knowledge to account, how would you then counter those Muslims who have had a cursory reading of the CETA, those who have watched your lectures on the life of the Sahaba, may Allah be pleased with them all of Abu Bakar, Omar, Osman and Ali, and how
holding people of knowledge to account in a particular manner in a particular tone in a particular way, can fall within the obligation of admirable model.
Or to try also and when you hear about how the women had held on to blah, Bob to account with the herd, and there's others that stood up in Juma and said that we will straighten up our souls and so forth. There's various examples that are cited to say that we're not you know, you can't just call us hard eg that's just a cop out, wait, hold on. I didn't call those critics cottagey. I said they have tendencies that overlap with hostages, they're not cottagey and even tendencies even trace even to make a comparison that they would argue saying that this is a part of, yeah, the reality is different from the examples you've given, they are not qualified to
call out a mistake. They're not qualified. And much of what they criticize others for is not a mistake. It's something that they don't know they haven't been exposed to. And they make it into a mistake. Some of what they criticize for could be corrected in a manner that doesn't cause any drama. So my point is, the reality shows that the fitna that is created, and you know this better than anybody else being in England, what they're doing is the essence of materialism. You know, this is the essence of materialism, and we've lived through the McCarthy era, we've seen the damage that mathcad is due to their own adherence, completely spiritually bankrupt, right? Complete burnout to
practicing Islam because they can no longer you know, be good Muslims. After that. The same thing is going to happen to this group of people. You cannot create a data whose premise is refuting other dogmas. And yet, this is what this movement is doing. That what has to be more than just reputations? reputation is like salt. The people that are qualified do it just in the right amount. So if you find something that I say problematic or mostly Amanda's problematic, I've already said problematic go to people senior to us here in America, we have chefs that I saw we we consider it to be a great item allama in England, you have great aroma as well go through the chain, they will
understand when to go public, when to keep private, what is a mistake? What isn't a mistake, like I said again, because you're talking to me, much of the criticisms that some of these, you know, ignoramuses create, it's not worthy of criticism at all. It's mainstream Satanism you know, I don't mind mentioning this because our brother just passed away move to LA hochkar on May Allah have mercy on him because he thought he was an alum now everybody across you heard his of his he's done he's done of course i don't i mean well law he a dawn in every sense of the term okay. I don't mind saying this because he's passed away now we can praise him even more Michelle this article law
you know, this this this brother, whatever this person criticizing me for crypto reform or whatnot, because I talked about the dude in this manner, while law he has Allah is my witness my conversations with your daughter on my phone, I can even you know, publicize them if need to be people doubt this. I'm having a discussion with him about to dude. And I asked him point blank, I said so Mufti, this is last year. What do you think then of the proposition that in the modern world, given the nation state and given all of the problems and what not? If we call for a rethinking of the who dude for the nation states, not in the *tier, not a permanent abrogation,
but to rethink through in Pakistan, in Tunisia, in Turkey? If we rethink and we make it penalties or, you know, jail or what not? Is this in accordance with the Shetty I'm asking him because I consider him my senior in knowledge. He is older than me and more knowledgeable than me. And that's my methodology. I always ask people that I trust. So this is a conversation. I'm having moved to Utah. How can you know what he said to me? Yes. He said, Yes, our history is replete with such examples. And it is in accordance with the goals of the *tier. He said basically, I mean, don't quote the wordings. He basically said, Our problem is our dilemma are so literalist that they cannot
understand that this is of the goals of the shediac to rethink through and because they're so literalist and fundamentalist he said they have opened the door for
aggressive Islam, which is something that I've said multiple times if you're not going to allow legitimate reform. Now the term reform makes people worried and scared. When I say reform, obviously my examples are all very clear. We're talking about applying standard or pseudo. We're talking about mainstream epistemology, nothing radical, the Koran The sooner the Jamaat, but rethinking through the textbooks written 1000 years ago rethinking through like a maternity multi pa has telling me Yes, we should do this. She called always saying this all the time, I was saying this. Now, the brother comes along a lot, and he guides him and if he doesn't repentant will love this particular
person, I have no doubt insha Allah has sent out on the Day of Judgment, because I have kept my tongue very here as much as possible. But still,
this brother comes along and accuses or with Ebola almost every day, almost like he wants to destroy Islam from inside. I mean, honestly, this is Johanna Mora come. This is the position of many, many Remember, this is the mainstream default of every single item that is involved with the council's of Mecca arrabiata. And the International Union of Muslim scholars. This is mainstream Sunday film, but our brother here doesn't know this, or he's intentionally ignoring this. And he creates an entire controversy, slandering another Muslim and die accusing of crypto reform or you know, semi ryda, or paganism, whatever it might be. So that's the problem, really, you're opening the floor for
ignoramuses to become leaders, it's not their job and responsibility. If the brother feels or anybody feels Something is wrong, go up the chain, ask your ruler, man, is this something permissible or not? And let them decide what to do. Before we bring the podcast, not to a clause, but to its concluding topic, there is one specific topic I did want to ask you about. I don't want to go into the actual subject matter of the roof and the preservation of the Quran. And so far, what I want to perhaps ask you, is the exchange that took place between your mom with hijab
I guess, the edited version after what took place afterwards amongst some Christians and Islam haters.
Do you have any regrets about that particular engagement with hijab? Yes, of course, I'm a human being and I make mistakes. And I made a mistake with wordings of that interview, no question about that.
May Allah forgive any mistakes that were made? It wasn't done intentionally. And I learned my lesson, these types of difficult topics, you should not impromptu and have a have a written script about it, you know, having a live interview. without a script on these difficult topics. I think one of the fundamental mistakes I made and by the way, so dearly, this goes back to the exact previous point of controversies and whatnot. Because socials, so created before that, because it was through an unfortunate email leak, because people thought that they're defending the faith, because they're of a particular persuasion, again, that knows the mindset. Everybody is a deviant. We have to hunt
deviants. That's one of the my criticisms of that mindset is that last argument not good enough. You want to find deviancy and other people, you want to kick people off rather than bring people in, right? So when you hear a position that you have not heard, but it is a mainstream position that goes back to great Imams, like up to how we like others, which I can quote, which we're not going to go here, when you have a position that is very well established, but you as a miner thought of him have never heard of it, and then somebody comes along, you haven't heard it, hello, see, you must be a deviant. And so you know, the person leaks all the emails, you know, again, these these, you know,
nudge these they think they again, they think they know everything but because they haven't been taught it so how does the Muslim has to expose you again, creating an entire controversy, my positions I have spoken to very, very openly with other top level element Messiah, not a single one amongst them has considered me to be a deviant not one and I do not keep this hidden anybody comes to me, you show me you know this material I'll open up to you, but it's not a material that should be put on YouTube or online. This is very difficult, very advanced stuff. I have spoken about this in many private gatherings with boilable him However, this brother You know, does what he does, for
whatever reason, Allah is going to be his judgment on the Day of Judgment, I will hit his his knees between him and Alon, if I get Heston, it will be I don't have to give us an ad for sure. Because I have again kept quiet in this regard. Well, I have kept quiet about this and all the others despite all that they have done ask Allah to keep me my tongue silent about as much as I can about my fellow Muslims. In any case, the hijab interview was done for damage control to what these guys have done. And the irony is this shows you the problems of witch hunting. Right? This shows you the problem is the entire oma you know, online DIY shows they're not on the online data was seen. It was negatively
affected because of the unwise choice. And also because this is not a defense.
I don't know their Brother Mohammed is
That, well, he seems like a good brother, Mashallah, I didn't know that he is interacting with this group of Christian missionaries, right. That group had nothing to do with me pre hijab, and I had nothing to do with them. I had no idea that that group is gonna listen to everything from Mohammed hijab, right? I've never dealt with that group and I had no plan to because they're not academics. They're really a bunch of fitna mongers, you know, the, the religion, they religiously follow what they do analytically and look for any kind of slip up even when there is, so I have never engaged with them. And I don't plan to, I had to for one library chat because of this, okay.
I made a mistake in the wordings about how to find karats. And it was a bit ambiguous. As I clarified, they jumped on this and they extrapolated to the essence of the Quran, the context is very clear, I'm talking about an opinion of the out of their holes in the narrative about the position of truth, not about the preservation of the Koran is very clear. The narrative of the heirophant the position, but they have been cut off. Okay, not a wise choice of wording. Okay. I still thought, you know, what, if somebody listens to the entire context is very clear. So for at least two, three weeks, I didn't take down the interview. But this group of people took the holes in
the narrative and whatnot. And they said, He's doubting the origin of the villa with the villa is doubting the preservation of the coral. And that's when I realized, you know, what, these people don't have scruples, they don't have morality. They don't they just, they're just gonna do whatever. So I thought, you know what, it's just best that I, you know, use the, you know, a copyright card and just get rid of it. Because they don't have scruples, I still believe if you listen to the entire interview, it's very clear that what they're deriving from, it has nothing to do with, you know, what I myself said, still, a better choice of wording could have been done. And this also
shows you like I said, the dangers of opening up this door, when you're not qualified to criticize this is not a topic that needs to be discussed on a YouTube video. You don't need to release an entire refutation of Afro. Well, I mean, how Anyway, let's not go down there, I hope is one of the most complicated topics in the entire luminal Koran, in the entire room of Quran. If I hold a position that is minority, no problem, let the roadmap come, we can discuss as we have done, and we're going to go away with no problems. But when you get an ignoramus fool who thinks he knows when he doesn't know a complete Jehan maraca, he doesn't even know and will lie. I have spoken with some
of these people. I have to tell them. Have you read this book? No, I haven't. Have you read that book written in 350 years? Or? No? I haven't. Have you read the position of Mrs. Jones? Oh, no, I haven't I said to one of these brothers. Yeah, for you haven't even read the basic stuff and you think you're qualified to criticize me, you haven't even done the research. And you think that because you've never heard of it, this must be a bondwoman position. That's why criticism should be done by the people who are qualified to do so. Check back. This is the example of this. So so if we talk about when this leak initially took place, there was obviously One prominent online figure who
was associated with that tower, who made a video and he did the rounds and got a fair amount of views. Am I correct? sure that there was some engagement between yourself and this individual, prior to the release of this video.
I have to think, should I,
I don't like to give attention to such people because I really view. So I guess what I'm trying to get one trying to get is that did you identify the lack of knowledge that you're claiming during those interactions? That's the point had to make? That's very clear. It's very clear. There's no question about that. And I don't want to get too much. But it is also very clear that
drama was intended to be created, it could have been minimized. Not because you weren't the only person that they they pursued our own therapy and teacher she Haytham and others were part of that witch hunt, as well, for other
they didn't need to even create any drama, they had access to me and to people around me. And it could have been clarified in a very easy manner. But to me, it appears that there was an intentional desire, for whatever reason, I'm not opening their hearts if they really, really thought that I'm semi motivated, and actually be exposed for the benefit of the oma or were there other ulterior motives? Because, unfortunately, brother, may Allah protect you and the grandmother class but if you have a lecture refuting y q and you're a nobody is going to get 20,000 hits over a night. You know, we've seen this with when I gave the answer about asking the debt and I said that you know, it's
held on and you should not do it. People who were unknown released very harsh language and their view to videos are in the hundreds of 1000s you know why he was promoting schicke Subhan Allah I mean, this is the position of even agile was he promoting should because well, this is the position of assumedly you're going to say so again. And I didn't even respond to them just silence and I gave the nurse the electrode because of this right. This is the problem when people who are not qualified
Get into the reputation culture, you become somebody who drama is associated with your name. And now that you have nothing, you don't have knowledge to give to the people, all you're doing is criticizing others. So you become you know, like a worn out stereo, just you know, going round and round. All you can do is you hate them this about Superman, this is it, this is just constantly, all you can do is constantly criticize other people. And that becomes your dialogue because you have nothing else to give to the people. I think the less attention we give to that group. And just concentrate on preaching and teaching, which is in Sharla. If you look at my lectures and majority
of my 99 inshallah percentage, just Lecture Series benefit what not, once in a while you have to correct somebody else that's done generically. And then leave it on after that.
shopping in the podcast to a close to our concluding topic. There's a reason why I saved this particular topic towards the end, because, again, correct me if I'm wrong, the gist that I'm getting from our conversation today, whether it be your realizations of certain positions of the past, changing those positions, prioritizing unity in terms of augmented reality, whether it be in the west or in the Muslim world, and so forth. I've saved the discussion of revival of Muslim unity towards the end, because I, I feel if I'm correct, sure, is that one of the reasons of your changing positions or your journey has been geared towards this greater objective of Muslim unity? Would I be
correct in understanding that we all wished for the revival of the that's what we're doing. We all wish and we are seeing a type of revival that is different from the 60s and 70s and 80s. So hamdulillah. So yes. So before before we go into this concluding topic of discussion, just like there were some quickfire questions to begin with some quickfire questions to close with.
I want to ask you some questions. I know, some of these questions are not straight, yes or no questions, so we will be elaborating on them. But just from your study of Islamic history, especially, you know, the early centuries, I want to ask you some questions. From your reading of this particular subject matter if you have ever researched it. Is there any shadow a premise to have to hold off
with a normative Sunni Islam?
It was a necessary
not evil, it was just a necessary reality for the bulk of the oma. That's always been the case number one. Number two. When you study history, you also realize that the notion of
one halifa doesn't mean central power, the morals for all practical purposes, they were independent. They were even though they didn't call themselves the Khalifa. They really generally speaking for their 350, whatever years what they had nothing to do with the Ottoman Empire. Yes, there's a token, you know, appreciation, but they are independent. So this notion of one unified philosopher,
it it's never been like that. Even when we had one Khalifa, you have many dynasties within the Empire. Shut up. But would you say that happened more towards the ambassador of general media, there was quite a centralized state, especially the early period. Yeah, because it's too fast to develop dynasties that simply the perks of being the first
it's just too fast to develop dynasties to that level that will make us we're only in for 93 years. I mean, it's gonna, how much can you possibly do in 93 years, number one, number two, the, the Colonel's of those dynasties were planted. And all you need to do is look at, you know, the omae dynasty itself, and that was planted in the time of the Coronavirus and upset, the kernels were planted, you can't help it. That's the way of the world so
the the historical reality is that we have never had the type of global infrastructural unity that some people imagine of the past. It's always been somewhat, if not somewhat completely, you know, disconnected. It's always you couldn't you can't expect the Muslims of, you know, let's say it was Becca, Stan, to be under the same government as the Muslims, you know, that we're in Morocco, and have the same types of policies, the to work, for practical purposes completely separate, you know, politically speaking, I mean, completely disconnected from each other for the bulk of their existence. So, yes, I mean, one thing is theory, one thing is reality, theoretically, to qualify
have been around for a long time, you know, Ria, realistically, what does it mean to qualify when even one halifa does not actually what's the point of one halifa in some central place in Baghdad, when, let's say, generically, 70% of the oma will do nothing if the halifa commands them to do it. They're completely for practical purposes, they're disconnected. Wouldn't it be the case that when you look at the works of let's say, Manuel, Manuel de Alarcon muscle tawnya him on journey and all theoretical great work
Bro keep them in theory where they ever actually and again,
this is gonna get me into trouble with some groups of people read your histories man read your history is this it's so frustrating to me that people extrapolate utopic mythological, romanticized notions of the past. Ma what D is writing as a, as a literally a person an ivory tower like literally has an academic. Okay. And that's the ideal should be the case. Excellent. Was it actually ever in place? Was that actually how it was? Or was it was it not the case that he bought he wrote those treatises in the context of the weakening of acid state and how they use them who applied them. Yes, he wrote the seljuks. The seljuks nominally gave by our the UBS nominally gave by
because not, not because of Mohanty, but because,
again, so dearly, there's a lot to be said here. You know, my background, I know your background, by the way, I know where you're coming from as well. Look, let me just jump the gun and just lay the beans out, as they say, isn't there a balance? Isn't there a balance between cynicism and excessive utopianism? Surely there's a balance between that because there has been cases of because the Ottomans, the Ottomans had a very centralized state for the best part of 250 years. They needed modernity to do that they needed the 1800s and the Telegraph and whatnot to begin those types of things. Okay, by the way, now, look, Dilli, again, let me just lay my cards out on the table very
soon. I am not opposed to those trends that are emphasizing Qaeda and political Islam. I don't view them as deviance or hermetics.
I believe a spectrum of diversity is healthy for the oma in this regard.
And I believe that live and let live in this case, what I problematize is that when these trends and the people involved with them, get involved in sectarianism and refuting other Muslims more than they get involved with their own goal. And it becomes irritating and a nuisance. And that's why they burn bridges when they don't need to, if you feel that that's your priority, I understand Missoula Go for it. But to blame me or others for your priority not having been enacted, bro, all you're doing is just criticizing other people for doing good when all you do is criticize. And again, the latest example is raising funds for fellows thing after what happened in oxa, raising funds for
hospitals to treat wounded people, you know, in the uprising. Last month, right? You know, double right? Yes, well lie like a dozen people, some of them no mentioning names, you know them senior members of this movement in the West in Australia and other places. And all they're doing is criticizing until we established a philosopher these funds are useless. Yeah, with a Billa. What is your problem? Man? These are people dying in the hospital. Right? And all you're talking about is Africa, Africa, I need to treat the wounded. Either you treat them? Or you let me raise funds are you establish the philosophy? All you can do for most of these critics, which is why it's so
frustrating is to criticize everybody else who's not on your wavelength while you get nothing done. And that's why it becomes frustrating. I have nothing against your utopian vision. By the way. That's another problem. You have no idea what the failover actually was, we lost Palestine, we lost Philistine under the failover. We regained it, not because of the failover. But because Salahuddin broke away and became independent. Go read your history, again, this utopian understanding of what the failover is Wallah. You wonder have they read one chapter in one book of any classical history, you think poverty is going to be eliminated, or the pinaka you think prostitution is going to be
gone? Nobody's gonna drink alcohol will love you have no idea of Islamic history, if that's your vision, but that's what they think that if a Napa will solve everything, you know, what? My opinion, do what you're doing, call us go establish it, but let me do what I'm doing. I'm a practical, pragmatic person. I want to save the amount of my children and their generation. I want to teach them about the prophecies and teach them the Koran, teach them their theology, teach them how they worship Allah azza wa jal make them proud to be Muslim. Surely you see, there's a need for that. Let me do what I'm doing. But when you take me as a target, and all of the other dogs who don't agree
with your wavelength as a target, then you are creating the same drama and controversies as the McCarty's or I have nothing against many of you working to some political game. May Allah bless you, when you establish it, and if it is done in a proper manner, inshallah, tada, I think it's great. We're all going to join or whatnot, but allow me some skepticism, if I believe it's not going to happen, and therefore I prioritize other things that are happening, right. That's my interpretation. I could be wrong. You don't need to take me as an enemy, which unfortunately, many of them have done. You see my point in the game, but the fees
of Islamic history the ultimate is a subject matter which you have lectured on is subject matter. I think one of the 100th Hijri anniversary since the
breakup of the Ottoman caliphate. You did a
lecture. So would you say, Let's not talk about specific groups? Let's put groups aside and movements aside who have made that their call of the Dow and so forth? Would you say that that particular notion of wanting an Islamic polity, a polity, which would perhaps do more than the 57 plus secular nation states that we have today, that of the Muslim world or wanting add, or groups of leaders or a polity that will do more for the omo in the situation of the Oilers and the Palestinians and the Kashmiris and so forth, wanting Islamic leadership or Muslim leadership that would perhaps, fulfill some of these aspirations? Would you believe that that falls within the
broader umbrella spectrum of revival? Yes, it does. No problem there. All I'm saying, allow people to have their niches and their areas of expertise, number one, number two, on a personal level, and I admit I could be wrong 100%. It's my own personal interpretation of whatnot. I just don't view it as being logistically possible. Logistically, I'm not talking about islamically fit what I'm saying logistically, and I think that people who have these notions are reading in too much, not only to the leader whom they think is going to be the Khalifa, but also to the people that are going to be behind him. Look at the events of the last 15 years. Look at the out of spring, look at Morrissey,
and what happened. Look at some of the leaders of our times without mentioning names, who might actually maybe in their personal lives, be sympathetic to certain causes. But there is a real politic, which it's so easy for us to criticize. When you get to those positions. You have to make massive compromises for whatever reasons, politics is a filthy and dirty business. It's very dirty. Theologians should not be politicians, and politicians will never be idealistic. That's why they'll qualify Ross, you don't. We're one era and that's it. Only one era 40 years were the best are our leaders. After that, what happens happens? So do you really think you're gonna get somebody in
power, and they will have unfettered access to everything, and all of us, and they're gonna act like an angel. If history has taught you anything, it is that power corrupts. And once you get these people in power, the very people and that's what we've been Tamia says never has any revolution happened, except the people who take over are worse than the people who were overthrown. The I busted showed this as well. And so many other histories have shown this. My point is, number one, logistically, I don't think is feasible. That's my personal opinion could be wrong. And number two, read history, you are, you are creating an imaginary Caliphate that has never existed, maybe only in
the time of oberkommando, the Allahu moment. That's it, because even a man on earth a matter of mind, and arguably a lot of their fitten did not allow them to continue
to write. So you are positing a hypothetical theoretical, mythological, romanticized version of a caliphate that never actually existed. And you think it's going to exist in 2021, you know, allow me to be skeptical, but I'm not dismissing your goals. Because in the end of the day, it's good to daydream. And it's good to have have high aspirations, and it's good to romanticize and, and think because maybe out of 20,000 people, if one is successful, good for you. So that's why I'm saying you do what you're doing. I'm not opposing you. I'm not standing in your path. But I have one life to live. And I have certain talents, and they have certain responsibilities. And I think I'm doing the
best for who I am and doing what I'm doing. And I am gently saying to those other brothers on those trends, stop targeting others to act if they don't agree with your wavelength and platform do what you're doing create whatever you know, grandiose visions you have implement them. And maybe just maybe if you're successful, they're very people you're criticizing will actually end up supporting you because whether you know it or not insha Allah Tada. Our Nia is the betterment of the oma, our goal is the same. Stop making enemies out of us and concentrate on the goal. You have a different way. I wish you all the best. I have my way and I think I'm doing what I can do best for the talents
that allows winter has given me
Are you are you acquainted with Dr. Umar Anjem from yuckiness issue? Yes, I know very well. Yes. Okay. And so obviously, I had the pleasure of having him on the podcast, I believe, a couple of months ago. And it made me think when you were talking about logistically not possible in 2021, the logistical problem that you're talking about, are you referring to the nation state or the existing world order in the way it's set up with everything, everything the nation state, the existing world order, and also a very awkward reality, which I could have said it much more bluntly than I would ever say, leave it to him, but I have an intuition and I'm about this as well. Just to ask him this
question about trade off and whatnot in my interview with him the reality of the oma itself.
how strict you can be with them is the oma willing to live up to the notions and standards that you think khilafah is going to bring about. Maybe the oma itself is not willing to get to that level, then if anything, the Arab Spring, and what happened with you know, Egypt should be a wake up call that practicing Muslims flip sides. And to this day, people that are praying five times a day and whatnot did not want people that wanted a religious platform, which shows you a lot of work has got to be done before you get, you know, to the top. So, you know, maybe some aspects of Sufism are still around your body famously remarked, establish the California Arts. Right. And along with
establishing that line, obviously, I don't agree with that, you know, 100%. But I have to say, there's an element of truth there, in that let's prioritize what we can actually prioritize from a purely logistical standpoint, I can impact 1000s of Muslims in shallow Tada, hundreds of 1000s by teaching and preaching, your version of a philosopher, you can be preaching a teaching of it for 50 years and nothing will happen as we see for the movements that are prioritize that. So cost benefit analysis, let me do what I think is beneficial, you do what you think is beneficial, and inshallah Allah will reward us based upon our data and our efforts. inshallah. Sure, so remaining on this
topic of this, I want to ask you still some some some some questions, which I'm hoping that you can touch upon.
Are you then saying that what however a caliphate or a healer for Weber is one which is espoused and described by some of the revivalist groups and political movements? Are one if you've ever given some thought about are you saying that such a polity would be impossible in light of the nation state?
Impossible is a big word.
Or am I unrealistic data? Probably better, that's my but I will be look daily, this is my personal opinion, I could be wrong. Am I not allowed to have an opinion people get so flustered? It's my opinion, how would you have an Islamic State disconnected from the global system? You can't have banks, and they're disconnected from the UN? Look, you know, sorry to bring this up. ISIS tried, whatever their version was the thought of on trade, whatever their version was, okay? How are you going to have a group of people disconnected from the infrastructure of the world? Will your own people want to live under that type of system that are going to be support? So allow me some
skepticism, and you know what, I could be wrong, but show me rather than taking me as an enemy. In in your lecture, the Sahaba series, you did the Actually no, not not the the Sahaba series, we spoke about the whole of Russia, Dean. And when you spoke about the assassination, the depth of earlier of the law, and you mentioned the Hadith in Medina, Hamad, the very well cited commonly cited one about there will be often a Buddha, there will be Allah for Rashida and so forth. And then you actually said that you personally believe you personally believe that we're at that latter stage. Do you recall the segment that I'm talking about? Are you still have that position? Yeah, it's a personal
opinion. I could be wrong. It's a personal opinion. Yeah. Okay. This this is
a tyrannical phase of the oma. And we should emphasize practical change from within, rather than through politics. I am still on that. Overall, though. I feel it is more useful for the bulk of the scholars to make sure we preserve our emotion, rather than to get involved in abstract notions of a political caliphate. It's not going to happen. That's my personal view. And yes, I do believe that and Allah who are them? Are we going to have a political system before the MADI comes or not? Allahu either. There's another issue. I believe in the coming of the valley. I believe it's in that heavy you know,
the MACD will unify. What we learned in the Hadeeth is that one of the biggest civil wars in the oma will occur in the time of the MADI will only be between the three sons of the holy Yes. luffas already established.
Three Sons of the of the halifa could mean three princes. You don't have to be technical, the technical khilafah doesn't have to refer to this just like what the president says watch him in the Hadith. It doesn't mean the technical wajib You know, that's reading in too much. Okay, the Hadith that taking a bath is wajib. On every Muslim, there's a hadith like this. Our scholars say when our Prophet systems zing wajib. He's not indicating the Buju of the authorial Fitzcarraldo, which is going to come in 100 years, right. What's he stressing that urgency? Yes. Yeah, yes. So the point being, it says any three sons of the Khalifa doesn't have to mean and by the way, this would go
against your notion of one pillar for anyway, it will also go into this notion of unify because even if you were to say there were three actual believers while they're having a civil war, but my interpretation is you're reading into
With the term Khalifa, three rulers, three princes, they're having a massive Civil War, the harem itself is involved. So I'm just positing, hear me out. Don't make me know
if we're gonna have civil wars all the way to the coming of the MADI
What does that indicate? I'll just leave it at that. And then allow me some skepticism and allow me to do what I think I'm good at. And I'm allowing you bro You don't have to follow my opinion as to how the position man I don't know, I don't know what the future but if I have a gut feeling or instinct and because of that, and my reading of history and my knowledge of whatever Allah has blessed me with, I'm pursuing a different path than you. So be it. I am not criminalizing you, considering you to be a deviant, even stopping you and your efforts, do what you're doing. But I will problematize your privatization of me. And that's what I'm going to say you're wasting my time
and yours and you're creating controversy in the oma
from your reading and research within the School of the subject matter. Do you personally hold a position or would follow the position that a halifa would have to be a Qureshi of Qureshi lineage?
So ideally, yes, realistically no meaning the default is we want so when you don't have a quota she halifa you go with what you have. So we're the Autumn is not our qualifier for 500 years, are you going to hold that position? That's a position that yes, you can theoretically hold but you're going to destroy much of Islamic history. The idea is as a Muslim,
I, you know, as a Sunni Muslim, mainstream Sunni Muslim, I respectable hottie and Muslim, too much to open up this door that some of our revisionist have done. I don't believe we should do this. I believe it is safest to unless there's a very specific reason but anything in body and Muslim I believe that we should accept it as a part of our heritage, generally speaking, yes. certain ideas again, like not getting technical. You get my point here, system illogically. Well, Hardy, and most of them occupy a very high place. This idea is as a Muslim, that the trade off is gonna be from the koresh. And if only two people were alive, one of them karoshi, he should be the halifa Okay, we
However, this is not a negation of a non quraishi caliphate. It is the recommendation that if you have the power, you should choose a Karachi and the man had they will be kurachi by the way, so again, one plus one civil wars all the way to the MACD, the MACD is going to come, he's from the Quraysh, you get my skepticism, and I'll leave it at that, because it's a position that I hold. Personally, I don't preach it. During your conversations with Mr. Caron rahimullah about the huddle in the end its implementation or it's not this is not implementation in the context of nation states and so forth. Did the conversation ever occur? That in the absence of an email or a soul bond or a
Holy Father, Is there even a need or legitimacy to implement the huddled in the absence of Islamic Courts? Is there a need to implement the huddled? Well, this was not an I didn't speak to specific specifically about that. But I know from my conversations with him that we were on the same wavelength, and that wavelength is, as Muslim minorities in South African American Indian Canada and whatnot. We are not calling for this. But in Muslim majority countries in Pakistan, you know, in, you know, Malaysia what not? Definitely, our political laws should be based upon our moral code. They're definitely. So how we view drinking, prostitution, public nudity, how can we not take our
morality into account? Right? But must we implement in the nation states the exact same produce that are found in our classical books? That was my discussion with move they got on, and by the way, with many scholars, but because they're alive, and you know, again, I'll say this delay that will lie because of the rise of these fanatics. And move the current said this in the text to me, and I don't mind saying this, he said, because of the intransigence of the fundamentalist literalist, right. much progress has been impeded, because people are too scared to talk about this topic. Most rula who have studied or sort of felt Mikasa Shut up, understand that having some laws in conformity with
Islam is better than having no laws. So if in Pakistan, let's say, we can get some laws passed, let's just say we can criminalize blasphemy because at the end of the day, nobody's actually being executed even at Buxton for blasphemy, every time in Saudi Arabia. That hasn't happened, bro. Forget Pakistan, in Saudi Arabia. It has not happened. You get more political prisoners killed. Oh, absolutely. Then you get so if it's not going to happen, can we think of a law that's actually going to be more effective, and actually bring about a change than some utopic romanticized thing that doesn't actually happen?
You see my point here? You know,
I'm open to the idea. That's all I'm saying. I'm not a sorority or a Pakistani, but definitely from an OSU delfield paradigm. Roma in those lands should have the freedom to discuss these types of issues without the worry of being called a Catholic or whatnot, which is what is happening. So the fear of fundamentalism, number one, the fear from the fundamentalist sorry, number one, silence is legitimate talk. And number two, opens the door for the all all out progressives who don't respect to tradition, and who don't mind criminalizing mainstream Islam. And that's what multicoat on himself said to me, in the text message again, very clearly that because of the the intransigence of
this new group of critics and whatnot, what has happened is legitimate internal Islamic reform has been silenced. And you're opening the door for all completely anti progressive, Cofer and Acosta come out. I'm a critic of progressive Islam. I've always been a critic of progressive Islam, but because ignoramuses and some of them have knowledge and some of them don't, criminalize genuine Islamic talk of her dude and whatnot, people are either silent or they open the door for the progressive. That's what has happened.
The final question I want to ask you, from your reading of history, and again, the the also and the legal nuances and Maxim's pertaining to this subject matter. Is there an unequivocal position pertaining to rebelling against a Muslim ruler? Oh, not at all. This is one of the myths of modern there's the set of ism, listen to my latest library chat, which was very generically entitled, some historical controversies in the first century of the hedgerow. And I close the comments section as well, because I don't want to cause controversy and I made the disclaimer isn't advanced talk and whatnot? I'm asking you Have you listened to that one? Often? Okay. Listen to that, as soon as
you're done with whenever you have time is my latest library, Chuck, some historical controversies in the first century of the hero in sha Allah after this lecture for the rest of your life, I know you don't believe this, but anybody who believes that it is a mainstream
understanding of Sunni Islam to always be quiet to stick and never rebel against the ruler that will be demolished. Okay, this is a construct of modern nationalism in order to facilitate their political acquiescence to their royal family, it is not Islamic. Yes, mainstream student ism overall, has been quietest, but not obsequious. There's a big difference between the two, right? And quietism is not the same as bootlicking, which is what the modern one does. And pacifism does not mean that you agree with the ruler, or you don't criticize the ruler. Again, all of this is discussed in this lecture. And also it is one opinion.
We've also we've always had the other position where it is allowed to rebel against the ruler for certain reasons. And Abu hanifa was of this position, many of the Sahaba and tab your own India zetes times the rebellion of Medina was done by Sahaba and Sons of the Sahaba. Okay, the rebellion of a shrine under Sydney Malik supported it on a symptomatic supported the rebellion against the Umayyad dynasty. Are you going to call him or with a bit of a non Sunni again, her saying the the grandson of the press and you're gonna say he doesn't know the Sunnah of the Prophet system? You know, and I mentioned this, you know, even the pacifists like even or water, and even abus. Their
hearts were with her saying against you as it was, whereas the pacifists of our time, their hearts are with the alpha lands and the royal families and not with the masses, you cannot compare the two so please stop deceiving people with this, you know, newfangled interpretation, we are not bootlickers to corrupt regimes that's not Islam. Even if you agree to be pacifist, it is done to avoid more bloodshed like Ibn Abbas and more said, and it is not done to support tyranny tyrannical regimes and listen to that lecture and you'll you'll listen, you'll hear my my thoughts your historical will I you cannot, it's not even me. I'm telling you history, the first century of the
hidden What happened? These are the setup, how consider fees go against the set of that? You listen to my lecture and you'll understand gela Mr. Bhatia, she also just on lokeren for your time I thoroughly enjoyed today's conversation. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.
If I said anything to disrespect you or wrong or to hurt or offend you please forgive me for the sake of Allah. And I hope this is the first of many podcasts are heavy soon in the future inshallah. inshallah, may Allah azza wa jal keep our hearts united May Allah azza wa jal forgive me if I also went sometimes again, we're all human beings and sometimes irritation and frustration is is expressed so I don't remember the exact wordings I used against some of my
And brethren, I ask Allah for forgiveness if they were too harsh because yes, I am a human being and sometimes, words and adjectives are used, I asked Allah to guide them and to guide me and to forgive them and to forgive me and to keep our hearts united, and to guide all of us and to guide others through us. Our ultimate goal is the protection of the pain and the pleasure of we might have different paths to that goal. But in sha Allah Allah, those of us who are broad minded enough to understand we should tolerate differences we should work together for the greater good of the oma that's my main message based upon the questions that you have given inshallah, I mean to the laws,
do you think there'll be any fiascos on the back of this podcast? there always are but inshallah nothing as bad as the previous one so we can we can cope with those inshallah. Yeah, take care keep us in your arsenal Maalik. You as well. Xochimilco sanowara