In the Hot Seat Interview with Muḥammad Hijāb

Tip number seven is

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DC

Hello,

and welcome to another episode of the podcast i'm joined with a man who needs no introduction at all someone who has done it all in Dallas has been in the east and has been in the West is acquired, as I say, more degrees than a thermometer, doctor. Yes, it sounds like that that phrase really tickles me at home. That's not quite more than a thermometer. But more important than degrees is Allah's acceptance, we asked a lot of religion for amicable and Islamic hamdulillah inshallah, and we've got some very important things to speak to doctor. He has a party about today in shuttle. And what I wanted to start with, obviously, because of recent events, is kind of the race issue that we're kind

of being introduced in the in the public discourse now, in terms of it's not just about obviously George for his death, but in terms of the whole racism discourse, in what capacity should Muslims get involved and how can they actually

contribute to the discourse in a positive manner?

This Fidel comes in and out salatu salam ala, firstly, thank you for

wanting to interview me, I really appreciated your very probing questions last time, Mashallah, I liked about you that you are asking relevant questions to an audience that I think is a little bit more niche audience because some of these topics should not be like the rest topic. Okay, we can discuss, but from what I understand you have other questions as well. And I think that is important that these platforms are given to give these more detailed questions. So I appreciate your honesty, and your willingness to to dialogue in this regard. With regards to the race issues we've had a lot I mean, it's a very interesting time to see what is going on in this country. And I gave a

footballer recently also had an interview with him to check, you know, and those are both online. And one thing that really struck me, you know, even when I was doing the serial research, and it struck me even back then 10 years ago, the the importance that Islam stressed on this issue of all peoples being equal. And I'll just give you, you know, two simple examples that, you know, we all know that Islam came to eliminate racism, we all know that, you know, we're all you know, that john, no computer went off of it to to out of, but to look at some of the incidents of this era. And to understand that this was a principle that was from the very beginning of Islam. And it was a

principle that our prophets are never compromised. In fact, Allah did not allow him to compromise. I'll give you two examples. And the reason I say this, I feel many of us have taken antiracism as a cliched reality, and we don't understand that Islam came to actually provide a transformative experience that Islam genuinely wants us to actively participate in eliminating racism. Two examples, firstly, early mcca, when his Muslims are being persecuted, when the Irish are, you know, at their Pinnacle, and Zenith and what happens, people like unworried, epididymal hero, and some of the icons of Porsche, they go to a party. And they say, and this is a famous incident event is how

they say that we are open to, you know, discussing Islam, we're open to maybe even converting to Islam. But there's one condition that we place, and that is ask your nephew, to get rid of Bella, and even Mr. Rude, and the others that are not to our status, so that the Arabs do not say that we are sitting with our IV, we're sitting with, you know, the people that are of a lower, you know, class, and if he's willing to do this, when we come in that when we come, we have a private audience, and then the rest of the week is fine. But for our time slot, we don't want those people sitting in the same age list as us. So I will probably have rushed to the prophet SAW said him, and

he said, My nephew, your home has come with a very reasonable, you know, compromise, I beg with you, I plead with you, this is you can't get better than this. He presented to them. The Profit System went back to the Sahaba there was a genuine discussion whether this might be done or not, or whatever the apology, a lot one, actually, you know, suggested and again, you know, we understand he's doing this with the zeal of Islam, he suggested you have a sort of luck VLANs obviously, paraphrasing, but as our brother he'll understand, we'll make it up to him later on, you know, yeah, nice. Okay, we're gonna get what he did, then we'll leave it off. We're going to get food on and for

now, we're gonna get some of the icons. And these are ministers. These are ministers and out of nowhere, these are powerful people, and Islam will benefit with their conversion. And it is possible even that Jani, everybody in the room was sympathetic to this ideology, everybody. And that is why Allah revealed not one, not two or three verses in the Quran.

three verses about this incident and of them is sort of an odd one I totally didn't know that that they were actually do not expel from your own ranks those that are praying to Allah morning and evening and then sort of to look at what do I know can come to me to Zenith and higher to dunya. You know, do not take your eyes away from them and go to another group wanting the pleasures of this world those people have the dunya but they don't have the deen and imagine some handler this principle was not allowed to be compromised from the very beginning of Islam. And amazingly and this is a very interesting comparison at the time of Islam is weakness. And racism is a card that you

cannot you know, compromise on. Now flip the situation Islam is now at its strength, the conquest of Mecca has taken place. And in the ninth year of the hatred, a thief comes to embrace Islam, the tables are turned and you all know that, uh, you know, the the, the students of color should know, a thief was problematic tribe. And they finally agreed to embrace Islam, but they had two conditions, what were those conditions? And somehow this has generated a lot of controversy in the books about the then filtering, is it allowed? Or was this only for the Profit System or whatnot, but the thief said, we're not gonna do jihad, and we're not going to pace the cuts. And then we will accept Islam.

Can you imagine look at the two scenarios, right? That omega and what do you know, they're saying, we might accept Islam. But if you get rid of this equality thing, we want all we want to have exclusive rights, we want to have only the elite come the creme de la creme, and then a thief is coming. And they are bringing forth Zipcar, one of the five principles, and they're saying, we're not going to do too hot, and the profitsystem accepted their Islam on those conditions. And then when they left, he said that they shall pay zakat. It's a prediction, they shall pay zakat, and they shall do jihad, which is of course, eventually they did that. Now, of course, I have to just point

out to you as a footnote, there's a lot of controversy in the Mohammed discusses this in the homily but has a lot of issues. What if a Muslim wants to own a non Muslim wants to accept Islam with the shot facet? You know, can you accept this? So this is a theological and affiliate point. And so again, I understand that, you know, this is not everybody's gonna agree with the example. But I am saying, and this is the position that I have analyzed, which knows best that and this is an interpretation of classical early Islam as well, that if you think that the sharp facet, the evil shark or the wrong shot, will inshallah be eliminated, you actually, as the leader, not as the

average Muslim have the right to accept that short facet. Right? And so they said, nausicaa, and the person said, okay, whereas when and what he said, racism, the Quran came down and said, Don't now I asked you by Allah, which one does the average Muslim think, Oh, this is the uncompromising even though both are uncompromising, right. So my point is that this whole issue that we see now, and I've been saying this for the last few weeks here, this is the time where once again, Islam can take the lead in terms of Dawa, like Malcolm X said, like so many other said that the only solution to racism is going to be in the embracing of Islam, the last speech that he gave the last interview,

Malcolm X said, the only way that America is going to solve the race problem is via Islam, because unless you separate you, I mean, if you separate theology from racism, you're never going to be successful. That's why you have to say, yeah, you were NASA in a HELOC and outcome, you have to bring in a lot of created all of us in this fashion. So bottom line, I feel that this is an opportunity for the Muslims to take the lead for the Muslims to demonstrate the reality of this faith. And we can transform this opportunity into a teaching moment. And obviously, I have to put the caveats here. There are, you know, problematic issues when you when you divorce theology, from

social movements, and I've said this many times. So Muslims have to be a little bit careful jumping onto the social reformation bandwagon without proper theology, because if you don't have theology, that same bandwagon has elements that are obviously not fully Islamic. So we have to be careful in this regard. And if you listen to the interview at Mosaic, this issue came up. But anyway, I hope that, that answers that question, roughly, that was quite comprehensive. And I find it interesting that you're linking it with Dell quite explicitly because, you know, on a comparative religious perspective, like you know, it's you will find in other ancient religious texts, clear, unequivocal,

anti racist, as anti racist declarations, as you will find them around in any way, shape or form.

You can make the polemical case that you'll find the opposite of that, but that's for another day with this discussion. I wanted to ask you because a lot of people are quite fascinated by your journey, about how you've actually transformed when I when I asked the people, and what should I ask? Dottie has a body a lot of them had kind of your journey as an intellectual your journey growing up in mind. So what I wanted to ask you was, I want you to kind of put yourself

in a position of a young student in Medina University, what were your general experiences in Medina university? And more specifically, I wanted to ask you about your dealings with those individuals, if I could call them that, that kind of follow shift from being met highly, vehemently, and and kind of, you could say they are followers of him? Did you run it? Did you come into contact with those individuals? And what was your experience? I think this is the first time you would answer a question like this publicly. So what was your experiences with them? So handle it, that's

I'm shaking my head. Because

it's an awkward topic, I try my best to be as fair and as just I don't, I don't like speaking about other individuals and other movements in a negative manner as much as possible. At the same time,

I fear that those who don't learn from history are going to repeat it. And what we are seeing now is the rise of and I've said this explicitly on Twitter and Facebook, and I've given you know, not full lectures but hinted at it, that what we see now is the rise of a new Neo McCarthyism is a manifestation of that trend. And these youngsters that are in the refutation cultures online, it seems as if they have no clue as to the damage that this movement did. And I don't like using the term advisedly, because it is a derogatory term from their perspective, but I don't have any other. So I don't intend any derogatory meaning I don't know any other word for it to to use now. I'm

gonna, you know, open up here, and then really, we're gonna go down memory lane. And the reason I'm doing this is so that I want people who are influenced by this reputation, culture, to learn from history and to see that these these, these are not new movements, there's nothing new about this, this, this obsession with finding the faults of others and thinking that you're defending Islam by exposing, you know, the balton and the deviancy of people, while we're in a while you yourself have not trained and the people that you're refuting are, whether you like it or not, it's just the truth. They're older than you. And I've studied more than you. And the people that are older and

senior than them are not doing what you were doing. So I want to go down a little bit of memory lane. And I'm going to begin by stating that, you know,

forget Methodism, per se, as a psychological trend. One can find this sort of manifestation in every single movement in the world, whether it's a political movement, or a religious movement. It transcends Salafism. And I think one of the best examples that I would encourage all of you who are listening and are interested to just do even a Wikipedia entry on this is the American phenomenon of McCarthyism back in the 50s. Okay, McCarthyism, and materialism are the exact they're two, they're two sides of the exact same coin. And if you study McCarthyism, right, you understand this was the essence of the mindset of materialism. It's not a it's not a new trend. It's found in every single

movement across the globe, the globe, and McCarthyism is the perfect example of what happens when you start obsessing over who's on and who's often who's a deviant. And is the perfect example of the rise and fall of a movement that is going to become popular because it rides the social wave of an anti communism or the modalities or you know, antisana, physical whatnot, but then eventually, you know, starts heating itself up and eventually fizzles out and leaves a very bad reputation and a lot of damage is caused in its wake. So, Methodism, and again, I don't use the term derogatorily. I don't know any other term to use. It is, of course, a trend within modern Salafism. That was started

by not actually sure for a beer. It was started by somebody that named chef Mohammed Jeremy, who was the teacher of chef Arabia. He was an African scholar, who came to Serbia in the 50s, I think, and then, you know, stayed in Medina and passed away in 1996. I actually met him once as a freshman or a first year student. And historically, this trend manifested itself after the first Gulf War, it was the first Gulf War in 91, Saudi Arabia, that really split up this NFP data, officially before this time, you had trends, but they were all together, the the first Gulf War, when the Americans claimed by the invitation of the king of the royal family, and they established military bases an hour away

from bucha, you had hundreds of 1000s of American troops, you know, in Arabia, literally an hour away from Macau and whatnot. And this is when this the movements split up. And you had for example, you know, certain groups you call them, the socialist scholars led by shifts of shifts, and others who they were not calling for rebellion, but they were saying accountability and they were saying that you can't just invite in you know, the troops and then ignore that there is a civil war. There's a people here, you do not have the right single handedly to bring in you know, 100,000 American troops, this is a country we are Muslims, we are living, you know, together, we should have

a say in

What is happening over here they did not call by the way for open rebellion they did not call for an overthrow of the government to be clear, other movements did the second was others did not. Now in response to this *hole Jami, spearheaded a movement that was eventually taken over by his student, but their issue for everyone but clearly after his death, and the main issue that they had here was the feel the joy, of political acquiescence to the establishment, they made it a point of our Theda that to be a good Muslim, you need to be faithful to the king. Okay. And not only that, but that if anybody wasn't loyal enough, they are a fifth column that will destroy Islam. So you

need to rat them out, you need to refute them, you need to socially ostracize them, you need to shame them for the sake of a law. So politics and religion took on a type of wedding together, which you still see, you know, to this day, and they took an element which is found in the traditions of thought about and again, this is a deeper discussion. I don't have time to get into the modality interpretation of thoughts, but it is definitely not mainstream Islam and the irony of ironies. And I've said this many times, How can any students even Tamia? How can anybody who studies demography potamia and diversity, the two are absolutely polar issues apart shareholders have even taymiyah

even refused to listen to? The fact was that he disagreed with a triple cut out that what do you remember the soap on forbade even taymiyah? from, you know, giving the sweats when he's like, yeah, whatever, I don't think you're right. And he gave it to us for you know, I'm advising the ruler until he is well known. He went to jail multiple times, because he felt that, you know, he didn't call for rebellion, but again, advising the rulers, public mistakes are corrected publicly. So the point being that Madison ism, did have this merging of political quietism and religion such that to be a good Muslim, you must follow the king blindly, and to dare disagree with the king to dare even

express that, hey, I don't think that's valid, you are sinful in the eyes of Allah subhanho wa Taala. And then, of course, what happened here is that it quickly escalated into the book definition of a social cult. I mean, Methodism truly is a cult. If you study the psychology of culture, social cult, it is 100% a cult because if you were not with them, you became an outsider, a deviant. And again, this is a with McCarthyism, as well. And what happened, of course, is the standard tactic tactic, just like McCarthyism, is that you have to be vetted by a group of people. are you on? You know, the main hatch of McCarthy? Are you on the edge of a beer? Or are you off? And if you and how

do you decide that? Okay, so you look at who you're socializing with. Okay. And of course, again, the same thing goes with if you look at the McCarthy phenomenon, the exact same thing. And I was admitted to Medina in 1995, when the mud floods were at their, their Pinnacle, I would say, and it is now well known. And I actually heard this myself myself in the, from the Minister of Education directly at the time, because I'll get to my story as well. I was in the Minister of Education Office, and I heard this and he goes, and when he heard what happened to me, which I'm going to come to very briefly, he literally said, Oh, yeah, I'm sorry about that. We're the ones who put them now

to apply now and who were the ones who put them in power over their meaning. Methodism became a useful tool for the government, the government obviously wanted this strand because it is beneficial to them. And so this strand, and whoever was a part of it was given certain social clout and certain privileges. Amongst them was to decide who would be admitted who would be promoted, you know, which jobs would be given. And even though there were always a minority, statistically a very small minority, they had far more clout, and they were given much more power than the majority. And the irony of ironies is, I mean, this is looking back. I mean, I was wondering about this when I was a

student here. The followers of this movement were typically converts to Islam. And typically Muslims who did not grow up in practicing households, they discovered Islam. Very recently, they got accepted to Medina, and out of all of this trans, they jumped to the harshest and the most janee cultish mentality and at the time, I didn't understand why like 100 on myself, I grew up as a practicing household, and pretty much all the other students who came from practicing households with any bit of him, they did not end up sort of these by by and large, were not mainstream and honey, I need this irony. We had more Frenchman hoodies and sororities, we had more British

maladies, you know them Saudi Jews. And it's just bizarre that the majority of practicing Muslims that were in Medina, that they were not a part of this movement at all. There were more Western converts than the war were from from Muslim lands. And the reason for this now it is obvious to me at the time when I was 20 years old, I didn't understand the reason for this.

self evident, there is a psychological appeal, how and why when you join any such movement, whether it's McCarthyism, or whether it's Methodism, when you join these movements, what happens is you get a VIP pass a quick track to empowerment, you go from being a nobody to automatically having a sense of superiority over everybody else, right? You get this self does skier instantaneously, who wants to be put in a long line of hard hours to study many years to master the text, you know, just reading after reading, who wants to do that when you can bypass all of that, and label all of those who have done it as being evil and misguided. Thus, instantaneously giving yourself it's a, it's a

quick reversal of power dynamics, right? It's an instantaneous reversal of power dynamics that you start off with nothing. You see these people that have memorized the Quran, they have all the jazz that they have studied the books, and whatnot. And you if you wanted to do that will take you like five years, seven years, like, whatever, you just joined this movement, they're all there, they're all off the Manage. And what's happened is, all of a sudden, you are the person in power. And with your dismissal, all of that has been very easily eliminated. But of course, these movements come with many dangers. And if I have a Facebook post a few months ago, and I have some points in mind

that I've said, and I want, I really wish that those that are in this modern refutation culture is on the rise again, I really wish that they were to study history, and to see that some of these people, you know, they rise for a while, but then they just fall crashing down. And they don't impact history in a positive manner. They end up losing themselves, most of them. And they end up as well causing a lot of damage. So what are some of the negatives that I would like this, the open minded amongst them. And by the way, my philosophy even in Medina was always the same. I was there for 10 years. And

I would like it, this is the first time I'm going public about this. And I'm even now I'm going to be very generic. I don't like saying these things. May Allah give us all this loss and always protect us from using our religion we need we need to we need your experiences here. We need to know what happened. Yeah, it's very, it's a very, you know, so if you if you look at my book, the introduction to the book, I mentioned in the paragraph that I was undergoing a very serious crisis at the time, I was constantly making dua to Allah. And therefore that book is my favorite book, as I wrote it with passion, it came from the I was making to art and writing the book. And one of the

biggest crises in my own life took place when I was writing that book. And so you feel the spirituality, I think, and then it was literally when I was finishing the final pages of that book, when I handed it out that I was making was answered by a lot, in what I still say, is a mini miracle that Allah bless me with what happened. So because I was not challenged mentally, and I was the most prominent Western student that wasn't that funny, and attempt to deny any straight A's, as you know, I mean, you know, top, you know, percentage of the class. So, as I said that the country still had power in opposition to many of them who got kicked out and couldn't get to it. And to be honest, to

be honest, the default amongst them at Hardee's was that there would be expelled or kicked out. In fact, I don't know, I don't have in my memory right now a single modality that actually graduated, and is successful in that way. I don't have anybody in mind right now. So some of them failed, and continued our as you know, after never graduating, many of them just fizzled out, they stopped practicing Islam, by the way, part of the majority of them, and this was going to happen, we're going to come to these points of a few of them. Hamdulillah, they repented, and the and he apologized to me and others, and they're now giving success without what they're no longer have that

strength. So what happened in the year 2000, I was graduated from college of heavy and I applied to the master's program. And this is the first time I'm going public about this. And I want to say this, because again, it's just it's something that is still painful to me. But I think there's benefits and May Allah preserve our F loss. So we were applying to the graduate level. And at the time in the year 2000. There was no American in the graduate program. The majority of American British students were dropouts at that time because it was a very difficult timeframe for all of us was the old curriculum, which was very different, different and difficult than the new one. We had

the you know, it was a very different timeframe. 95% of Western students dropped out in Medina did not graduate 95% when I was there, we had a handful of graduates and then handed up a lot less need to be not just a graduate of the College of Hades, but in the top notch any with a grade basically won't as they call it right. And this was almost unprecedented for any Westerner, not just American, almost unprecedented in the history of Medina. And I applied to the the graduate level al Qaeda, I wanted to do this monopoly either. And in the entire university of all of the applications that came in, they had to give a special exam and how to do that is the first time saying this that but

everybody knows who was there.

had the highest score in the entire university no exceptions amongst the Saru these qualities howdy geez everybody the number one score from an American student to get applied and the only one that got an A in the introduction exam What do you call it the admittance exam you know so to apply to the Masters was very difficult back then so an American half ago for on with the jazz and put on and headed with an A from the College of Hadith and ba and the only a from the admittance exam This is a no brainer, right? I mean, obviously you need to know what's going to happen. These madatha they started a petition and their Messiah as well and these their machines are known as well for this

that he's not Yanni a proper Yeah, and he said a few. Okay, so he's basically uh, you know, his be and whatnot and and so they petitioned and it was a very vicious battle within the army I because again, the University of Medina has its own strands and the mercati strand is one strand and then you had other strands, I had so many professors and teachers fighting on my behalf. But you see, the majority are not vocal publicly they are Mashallah mainstream, wiser here, right? It's the modalities that are the minority that are working below. So there was one particular person melda forgiveable, high to high up position, who was medicine, and my my petition kept on getting pushed

up, pushed up until the reach this person and he in a manner that was unethical and immoral, he pulled out my name out in a very evil, it was totally not allowed, because everything has been met. Anyway, he did it. And I was given the heterogeneity to go back to America. Okay, like I was denied my my master's level admittance because they said, You're not getting a mccolley basically, okay. And my teachers told me to go to court, my teachers, my professors, my Michelle, you said take them and sue them, okay. And they said, do this, and I followed there, I didn't actually end up suing them. I went to, you know, this is when I started, you know, getting involved in the sorority

process, which is the other issue altogether. She had said that, they mean, he got involved, he wrote me a test to hamdulillah I visited many missionaries, you know, I really want to show you

Oh, yeah, I have this letter, I have this desk somewhere

else for that.

I have it.

I said he didn't own a visa the year that before he passed away in the year 2000. He passed away January 2001. I was the last batch to study with him in the summer of 2000. So I went to an ISA, because that was the semester that I have polygyny. Hi, like I was supposed to leave. Right? So I go to an ace, I study with him and handle it, I got to know him. And so he heard of my case, and he wrote me the test gear. You know, my my new my, my case became well known amongst the scholars of the land. Because it was such a blatant, you know, misfortune abuse? Yeah, just because of materialism. Right? The only because I'm not a fan of the Mercury's in it. And a Western student at

that there had been zero American graduates from, you know, the PhD level zero. nobody's been there since the beginning of Medina, and Westerner and you're going to deny me because what I am not card carrying with honey, seriously, that's the reason

I visited shift. Because I wasn't there visit chefs and man for the second third time. But when I walked in, he's like, oh, you're not a chef.

A chef? No. He's like, oh, you're yourself? Or the the guy heard about hustling? What is it the US had reached him. This is the first time he got to know me after dinner, we met more often. But he had heard about my case, I visited reality get petitions from the sheriff. They all knew that was happening. It was like in the news spread everywhere. Like even between the cerec machine if it became a very, you know, sensitive issue like this is ridiculous, man how, how much hatred or maybe as you speak, no, I'm getting a little bit angry, I have to say, I was I was denied. And that's when I got letters from so many machines. And I went to, you know, shared with me and I went to so many.

And then also the somebody hooked me up with the Minister of Education. And he heard my entire story, right. And he's like Apollo in his office in Riyadh, you know, and he's like, apologizing to me, like secular guy, you know, clean shaven. He's like, is like sorry, kid. You know, we put them there. For our reasons. This was not what we intended. We didn't want this type of stuff to happen, you know, I'm saying, yep. So this is the point. Like, you know, he literally told me like, young people don't know this. And I don't like to say these types of things. But I think this is the reality that How can you be so naive as to not understand that your version of Islam is very

conducive, and very, very beneficial for a certain strand of government? Right? That it's very convenient for them to push you through. And that's what happened. And of course, what happened was lawsuits and people like me and others. And after a while, the government quietly just withdrew their support because it became socially unacceptable. The same with ice. I thought the same thing that nowadays I don't think it's, it's part of the narrative. Exactly. It's not

It's not it's not official anymore. Right. And the same thing with McCarthyism is like, you know, there was a time when Joseph McCarthy was the most powerful politician in America. And within five years, his own people and party turned against him. There's an infamous clip online you need to watch this is like, you know, the Speaker of the House has Have you no shame, Mr. McCarthy, like, you're gonna stoop to nothing. Everybody's a communist in your eyes. But when he was in power, he caused a lot of damage. Now, again, I was gonna talk about this the issue of Yeah, what happened? Yeah, tell us about well, yeah. Okay, what happened? Yeah. So I mean, basically, the, the, you know,

the all of these letters and the ministry. So I've handed out both the people of Dean and the sensible people of politics, and I even petitioned the governor of Medina, who was the brother of the king at the time. Wow, this is a serious water. You went into that? No, no, because my wife told me my mission, I have said, we want to use you as a case like that. Because everything like Check, check, check, bro. Number one in the exam, where do you want, you know, like American half of the Oregon ijazat and multiple clouds? And like, what more do you want, man? Seriously, right? And so and so they answer paddle up. You know, many of my close and near and dear friends did not get in

because of their their nationalities, you know, the Libyans and whatnot, they didn't get in. But someone like me, my Messiah wanted to use me because I have the American cart to show how nonsensical Madison was right. And so I had the support of many scholars, and many people in politics. And that's what happened. They use my case, and welcome to lesson one. hamdulillah. That's the phone call that came now. I was literally in front of my computer, finishing the book. And somebody I never even met her hurt. And so I was well known. I don't know how he got my number. He goes, yes. And I'm from the Ministry, I just wanted to call you to say, Thanks a lot, you're going

to hear some good news in a while, and he hung up. And I fell into such that crying law brings memories back somehow, because I didn't know the guy was but my case was being

at the same time finishing the final pages and finishing like

come to the mayor about this before man, because I tried to protect the fall. So my brother and but I feel that because there's a new neoma, Cadiz coming they need to hear these types of things to understand. So what are some of the dangers of this Methodism of the past? And also the new mechanism that we see now? There's many dangers, what happens after before you get to that? What happened after that? What was the good news that you heard? The good news was that my application was there was a special committee assigned by the Ministry and by the Kings brother. They said they literally thought Maliki came, whatever you call it, that a special committee, excluding the one guy

that didn't want to be on is going to be assigned to look into the case of Yasser Adi, like by name, right, to see whether he should get in or not. And when it comes from the government, you know, what they're saying is put him in. Okay? So a very atypical exceptional scenario was done. And like I said, it was a miracle because this had never happened in the history of Medina. And I don't necessarily mean it truly. And I still say this, like, it is something that Allah blessed me with, because of the I need that doors that I was making at that time. And then after that, because of the help of so many, you know, Misha, and Chef Art, and as I said, it was a case that had implications

beyond me. And it was at a timeframe when mechanism was beginning to be withdrawn the support, right. And so my dress a serious piece of history, the lie is a serious piece of history. Yeah, it's interesting, and I've never been public about this. But again, I think it is important that we know and, by the way, that was when you were telling me that as soon as you read the last page, you get the phone call, as always, that's like a secondary, truly literally, and I'm not exaggerating, I'm finishing up the pages, like finding, you know, I've finished the first draft finishing up. And you know, it's and that's why in my book, in my book, the introduction has that. And the book is

published January 2001. It took three, four months to edit, you know, so it's all like it's there, you know, and by the way, every student of Medina who was in Medina in 2000, knows the story. It was a very public news, the Medallia and the nonword Follies. They all know this because I became a cost celebrity as you like every student's non-security everybody knew it was like a public scandal, because because of again, the dynamics and whatnot involved. And you know, as you're aware, some of the politicians May Allah forgive them and whatnot, they actually released videos about me, it's still online.

By the way, she probably didn't know how to use my teacher. He's been quoted already.

Which is, again, one of the points I'm going to come to that's what's gonna happen right, at the timeframe. You know, he was the big shot, and he taught her and you only when I got into the Masters, he released a video against me which is still online like the thought of and adores me a lot and you forgive him and me, so he is of that strength.

Shia phobia himself. By the way, I was neighboring I was he used to live in a neighborhood as him and I visited him privately when I first got there, because when I got accepted, I applied in 1994. And I had no idea what

Mike Hudson was I mean, just in his insanity, I just thought everybody's the same, you know? So I had no idea what's going on. And the American and British converts are predominantly war medically. And again, I didn't understand at the time Now I understand why. Because when you're ready, you get the self ego like I am upon the health, for example, you know, so I was just with them. And I got an OSHA for a year. And you know, I've handed out because of why on my language, my question is what not 100 people, the only the likely would not some of them. So I got invited to this house multiple times only without the other students. At the time, I didn't understand. But there's this spider

sense in my back just doesn't make sense. So I don't understand what what he's saying. I mean, I'll give you one example before, there's some points I wanted to but one example. Another shift that's famous is Chef Aveda Jovi. Remember this very clearly that the first semester I was in Medina, and I'm learning Arabic, and this is before culated, had determined the Arabic program, right. And so one of the modalities and they're all dropouts, they never graduated, those guys that arranged these meetings, they arranged that we have a private meeting with one of the major scholars. I've never heard of shift or better job, I don't know who he is, okay, let's go. And that was one of the main

points that said something is psychologically wrong with these people. I went to their house, his house, and again, May Allah forgive him. I'm not personally but the idea that he was wrong again, I was there, I heard this with my own ears. Nobody can tell me something else. So all of us 3040, not 30, maybe 20. I think British Canadian Australian, went to his house, and there's some new Muslims conference, you know, they've converted a year or two ago or whatnot. And the whole lecture was against the white and Muslim. Okay, what the heck is one got to do with these, these new Congress teach them some basic. So anyway, one of the new white Congress from Canada, he goes, look, check.

This is all news to me speaking English, the masjid that we have in our community, we only have one message from some small town in Canada, you know, and it's run by somebody who's in a one. What should I do? Should I, you know, go and pray with them? Or what I don't have any other question to go to. And I remember, I was so shocked when I heard his response. I actually turned to the guy next to me said, Did he just say what I thought he said, What did the chef say? And I was there. He said, No, come to the mechanic, the truck to say that if you mess it was a little too much. We'll wait. This is what chef, what would be the job. But he said to a new white convert, my jaw just dropped.

Like what? And I didn't translate them sorry. Because

if I were in your place, I would not pray behind them. And I would pray tomorrow in my house. And when I heard this, and I'm a 20 year old giant, like I don't know anything about the advanced after you then find out how to move today, which is discussed in the books of faith. And Mr. Muhammad is saying that if you have no other choice, you could pray behind the actual Mukhtar there not one but an actual material, you don't leave the jamara, you know, for even somebody who's an open foster or whatnot, right? I didn't know any of that. But because I've been raised in a practicing household. There's enough common sense in in me, that says these people are off mat comments.

I don't even know I don't, I don't want to be too harsh, but they're not mainstream. They are a Congress, you're going to tell this. And I see the kid is like, Okay, I guess I will pray behind them. Now, you know, what world are you living in that you're going to tell the new Congress anyway, so I have a lot of horror stories like that, that these people are just so problematic. And so what happens? What are some of the dangers of that movement, and then also of this new strand of the refutation culture, these are now all the same mentality, they don't call themselves modalities, but it is a new strength, a number of things come to mind. First and foremost. When you start following,

and exposing the faults of other people, you end up neglecting and not concentrating on your own false. And this is something that goes against the prophetic traditions, that really are a core of what it means to be a Muslim. We are more concerned about our mistakes than the mistakes of others. I swear to you as a lost my witness, I am more worried about even the smallest mistake I've made than the biggest deviations of all the aroma of the world of all the colors, because I have to answer to myself in front of a lot about myself in front of a lot. I don't have to answer for the other people. Now what happens when you concentrate on the faults of others? Is that automatically

you get a sense of kibble, a sense of arrogance, a sense of lack of spirituality or lack of and that's why almost all of the modalities of Medina and you can ask any of the students that were there are dropouts of Medina, they didn't even graduate. Where are they? Where are they? No. During my timeframe, over 200 students came in and out and those that were of that strand, I cannot at this stage and maybe we can maybe somebody can coordinate later on. I cannot recall a single one of them ever graduating and then going on to be successful.

In that what many of them, the bulk of them fizzled out of even practicing Islam, some of my worst enemies of the Methodist round with my shallow the biggest fears and the hardest deviation, your most tender, what not. I heard later on that they completely left praying five times a day and they're doing this and that and drugs lifestyle, this is what's going to happen, the most honey burnout is going to happen because you're concentrating on the mistakes of others. Rather than thinking about yourself, this is one point. Another point is that what happens here is that you start believing that every slip up, or every mistake is somehow worthy of being exposed, and you are

somehow defending Islam, when you talk about the mistakes of other people. And what happens is you typically end up creating a much bigger scenario out of nothing, Shakespeare said Much Ado About Nothing Shahada beer, so many times May Allah forgive him and guide him would accuse Sales Total of every single crime known to humanity. And you would use a well known, and he would say that all of the most shocking of the dounia go back to every wish killer in the Muslim form. I heard him say this multiple times, by the way, every wish killer in the Muslim woman can be traced to feel like seriously, bro, he claimed, you know, and again, I'm not a fan of particular they can call me

whatever they want. And he also doesn't move up yet he has some good ideas and bad ideas. I don't spend my time reading him or refute him. He's a person that came in left you know, but you know,

the method is trying to show for be explicitly accused say a photo of things that say photos, closest disciples and followers never got the impression of, for example, the Koran is created, for example, cursing the Sahaba, for example. So all of these ideas that he was accused of the people closest to him, right? Never got those ideas from him. You know, the followers of Otto don't go around and say the Koran is mahalo wherever it says it, they don't go around, you know, cursing the Sahaba. So what you see here is that a lot of times you read in the worst interpretation, and you then extrapolate the most evil, you know, possible interpretation. And I see this now happening with

me and almost with a man and others that literally 95% of what I'm criticized for is within the valid spectrum of opinions or complete misunderstandings, yes, four to 5% whatever they're genuinely positions that I understand are atypical or not mainstream. And so we can go back and forth like the Judo Judo I have no problem with somebody understands where I'm coming from says, Hey, this is not mainstream, you're right. It's not mainstream, no problem. But the bulk of what I'm criticized for, are people who themselves they're reading in the mistake, or they don't even have the knowledge to assess the mistake, you know, and they don't and they're not qualified to then go ahead and comment

on it. And this leads to another issue. And that is the issue of self piety for that was a coup and full circle. That is why as I said, so many people who newly practice the deen, so many people who are new converts, they love this path. Because it's an elusive fast track, you get ahead of the line, you get to the top without putting in any of the effort. And again, a sad reality will lay I don't like saying this. But it is not surprising that when you concentrate on the faults of others, your personal life suffers. And I know too many horror stories from my Medina days about those brothers, I'm not going to say them explicitly. I will give one anecdote without names. So please,

nobody read in anybody, anybody who you're thinking of inshallah, somebody else I'm just telling you now, a few weeks ago, few weeks ago, sister contacted me online, got my email and whatnot that sent me a long email about one of the main people who are criticizing me on YouTube, right, one of the main people send me videos and whatnot, explaining how she was taken advantage of and a secret marriage. And then she found out she's not the only one and she had and she goes because he's refuting you, I want you to have this information so that you can then you know, expose his do and it's not only me, he's doing this to multiple sisters. Right? And so panela Firstly, I said, I'm not

the right the same system must have given me the same details. So I guess the reality broke this guy you would think he shared with us now what he's finding every mistake of yourself all the He must be the Mozart in Abu Dhabi, when he's talking about other people. And there's a long list of sisters that and the sister says here's I can give you the numbers look, yes, it looks good. Firstly, because of this person, animosity, you can't come to me. Because of this. I'm not the right person. I said go to fall down and funada and show this is my job. I didn't tell her that. But I mean, it's up to you. And that's the second thing I have to say. It didn't shock me at all. Because those

people who are the most angry at their fellow Muslims, and think that they're the most deviant in reading and other Muslims. I know from my Medina days, their personal stories, and they're about that and what they I know that this is the reality of it. When you concentrate on other people's mistakes, it's gonna burn out and you're not going to concentrate on your own. And my genuine advice to these brothers and sisters you have to answer to a love for yourself, not for me, not for anybody else. And what we also see

This is what's hardest in the Middle East, as well, is that typically these people end up attacking those who are benefiting the most the most in areas they themselves are not benefiting. And I saw this myself the names of the machines that were Makati, or one 10th, one 100, as successful and popular as those who are outside the strength, and you wonder, are these guys sure that no personal issue is coming in? I mean, is anybody truly qualified to open up his own heart and negate any jealousy? And he has said, Is it really appropriate for somebody who is almost unknown to criticize somebody who is seen here or maybe even appear? Is that really something that you can say has

nothing to do with your own knifes and ego. So any movement whose initial success and fame is defined by refuting established success established individuals, it is doomed to failure, your success cannot be by destroying other people. History teaches us this time and time again. And that is why By the way, I don't spend much time defending myself. I honestly believe in I, I hope I don't come across as arrogant. It's not my intention. But history teaches us that all of these people, they will not even be a footnote in tomorrow's books of history. Not even a footnote. Well, technically, they'll be a footnote democritus did this and that's it. History goes on. Nobody cares

about the critics and the haters, nobody and I even sent to one of them online actually, if you really disagree with me, show a better way to produce a better lecture do a better set of CDs well lucky I pray for the success of those who want to do good for the oma I'm not saying my series is the best go produce a better series I brought up problems of getting to demo to you solve them in an academic and go for it and I make to offer you may Allah subhana wa tada bless you with even better so that the woman is protected. The issue is not about egos and personalities, the issue is Ouma. So rather than get involved with my mistakes, do something better, show the product better, and then

say, hey, look, I've done this in a better way. And I will make up for your success. But you see, that's what happens when, you know, you get into this mindset. And you know, the biggest problem and all of this, and this is what hurts the most is the confusion of the innocent masses who don't understand you embroil them in controversy. And the average person gets involved in practicing, he looks up to him or cinema and myself or whoever else they refute, Mufti mancow. And by the way, all of them the more successful you are the more deviant you are in their eyes. Look at the irony here, right? So yeah, then this innocent person starts listening to move to Microsoft by myself. Then he

comes across as, like that's the that's the main thing that I found was destructive about this thing was that exactly. If someone's gonna build that email of someone like Mufti manku, someone like Monet, or someone like FireWire, or someone like

yourself, and then they're told after that, actually, this person is off completely. It's not like that, oh, he's got some. Or he's got some things they should he shouldn't have said it like this because everyone has.

He's saying that this person is completely, this person's completely deviant. In other words, Don't listen to him. There's no benefit that you can get from that person. It's not good. And send your Holloman where you're actually that everyone has some things that you can refute them or some things. It's not, and he wants to brace that this person is completely off. Exactly. This, even if some people accept that narrative, it might actually destroy their whole event and hurting people by turning people away from those people, you actually end up turning away from Islam itself. Because here's the point these people that are refuting they lose the forest for the trees. Let me be again,

very explicit here. A more intensity is a million times better than a Kaffir. Okay.

Are they trying to justify Montez Elizabeth record your waters?

I'm getting I'm getting to the next example here. There are people in England, in a in

helcim. In America for proxy origins, right? their views are not mainstream. Certainly their views are somewhat more fuzzy. But I don't refute them by name. I disagree with them very famous people speaking in order very famous out of you know, person in, in Europe, very famous doctor there you have yours in England as well, another person coming up. And you know, I disagree with much of their views. I really do. But I would never as of yet, do an entire lecture by name refuting the person Why? Two reasons. Number one, the person might repent. Why would you want to mention him by name? It's the idea, not the person. Okay. Talk about the idea. You disagree. Bring in the concept and

then talk about it. Number two, much more important than this. When you understand the types of people that are attracted to those individuals, okay. You realize that these people if they didn't have that individual, most likely they'd be outside the fold of Islam. Most likely they wouldn't even be praying and practicing. And somebody who is listening to Dr. funan from that world or chef without or whatnot, and praying and fasting ramen.

On and believing in the Koran is infinitely better than somebody who has left the deen or somebody who is not praying and practicing at all. And so we need to be gentle in our correction, because we don't want to separate them from their own the connection to Islam. Right. So this involves Hickman, when you look at the broader picture, don't mention schutze yet mentioned the concept and say, Oh, we should believe in the sooner Oh, it's not right to bring doubts about all the hottie, oh, to do to deny the virgin birth does not make any sense. You talk about concepts, not individuals, right? And I have no problem, okay? There are people that refute me with their ID. And I say, may Allah

azzawajal guide, both of us have no problems with refutations with between the people of monitoring is a part and parcel of the territory I have chosen. It's the people who don't have it in and the people who don't have a dip. Sometimes it's you know, the the issue is the language and the the the technique, and the the the audience that you're doing. And by the way, positions within Islam are really not black and white. The more you dive deep into fifth, the more you understand that you know what I might have an opinion. And the other opinion also makes sense. and dare I say this, and that, and I know you agree with me, but I know many of our viewers don't share it. And so

when you're at a superficial level, each side is certain that they have the evidences and they're fully 100% certain, but that's superficial. And the deeper you go into those leaders and the more encyclopedic works that you read, and the reputations and culture reputations, all of a sudden you realize, you know what, I see where they're coming from, even if I don't agree, that only comes with a deep dive. It doesn't come with the superficial. And if you only study with machetes, you will think that selfies must be a bunch of idiots, which you only study with selfies, you're like, how can you not see the light of day, right? It's so self evident when you're at level one, when you're

a beginning student of knowledge. When you do a deep dive and you study a shiny Mattoon in detail, I'm speaking as a previous set of feet, or if you're a shiny if you actually study a didomi. And you study the books of the of the setup, you study it in detail. All of a sudden, you read a property, for example, and you read it cover to cover, like all covered during my point, you're like, oh, okay, I see. I see. Okay, I see where you're coming from me, you have some some validity. So all of a sudden, you toned down, and you gained a little bit of sympathy for the other side. So what this shows us and of course, this is the same well known, a little bit of is very dangerous, very

dangerous. And the more room you have, the more humble you become. And that is why a hallmark of McCarthyism and McCarthyism and neoliberalism is that you have a group super out of learning without us none young overzealous under educated throughout the major machinery of chef entertaining chef and most others, they never got involved in this. They can't it's even though they did not another point I want to say here. You know, these guys that McClintock is always they've been badasses on our side of venues on site. And, you know, the team is on site. This is all a lie. Everybody knows this was inside the movement. I was in Grenada, when a stranded Methodism tried to influence the

students of the ship. And he gave a public lecture in Grenada, you know, the famous lecture that he said, that once said, If you start deviating leave center fees, and go back to the sort of There's a famous clip right off the rim, even with him, he said that, yeah, yeah. He said that, and I was 10 feet away from him sitting under, it's not something I heard on a cassette. He said that and I was in that gathering, the famous gathering. Why did he do that? Because a certain students of CAD comp was from that strand, and he was preaching that strand and share it with me did not like this at all. You want to see Shepherd me is bandhej. Look at his students in Malaysia. Look at his son in

law, the one who has taken over Look at his core students, none of them are Muslim, you're going to tell me that, oh, because he generically prays you're going to be no, this is a Kumbaya fee, which again, in hindsight, I don't know if it was the wisest thing to do or not, but it was him at the time. You don't want to make it worse he prey ship suffer and appreciate for a bit, you know, he prays for the same worship live as you find positive statements here you find positive statements there. They were above this free they didn't get involved in this and hindsight is 2020 should they have should they not have this is something that is difficult to say, but bottom line, the real

methodology of the Cabal of rula is not to get involved in refutations to this level it is petty it is becomes personal and if you must refute refute the idea without mockery, without a sense of harshness be absolutely academic. And if you have a personal issue with the person, you should not be the one refuting. Definitely because you do not know the recesses of your own heart. Is it because you're jealous that he's more this or that? How do you know go to somebody whom you are certain that has none of these issues and go to the senior them and I'll finish up? I do have another question here. I'll finish off with this point with regards to Chevron was for the move the

Mac myself and others. All of us are minor students of knowledge compared to the kebab. I'll be the first to say this Allah has tested us that because we speak fluent English.

Because we're born and raised here, you know, we have more clout than others. But you know, America has read Mr. Schiff, Salah has always somebody I look up to immensely. He is a person who used to teach. And one of the questions on this Sorry, just to kind of add this, one of the questions that was one of the most popular questions is how would you define island? Before you talk about, okay, Hey, yo, J. So I made my point is this, let me finish your question. Go to those are them with your problems about me University managers go to those remember, have your issues that shift we disagree with this point. Because you do not know so many times, you might not understand or you might have a

different or you might not even be qualified, go to those that are actually qualified. And then you know, what, if chefs allowed to call me and say, you know, I said, I disagree with this issue. And I think it's wise that you don't see it anymore? Well, I would be, I'm not going to guarantee but I would really take it to heart and really think long and hard like somebody from him coming to me and saying, you know what this is causing fitness, it would have an impact that some impetuous 20 year old self recording from his car is never going to have them. You know, I'm saying like you're not qualified, brought to you don't even speak English, and you're coming in and talking to me about it.

So go to the people of him, and then they are going to solve amongst themselves because they will also know, okay, you know what, maybe funan has this one mistake, but he has 99 good things as well. So maybe it's not wise to just publicly blast. And I keep on saying this last point. But you actually, some of these brothers, may Allah guide them, the very fact that they create a drama online without coming to me or others first, and they have indirect content at the very fact that they can figure out hey, you know, did you mean this or not? The very fact that they rushed to Facebook, and Instagram and YouTube and create a drama out of it. May Allah protect me in them, but

it bodes an evil Nia, because that's not the way it is done. If you really and truly have a problem with somebody, go to the right channels, verify, ascertain, make sure it is something that is worthy to be made public and that Bismillah if you're qualified to go, but these brothers I find out their reputations because of YouTube clips or whatnot, and to scour Yeah, my guy, I have an admin, he told me I have 1700 YouTube videos for these brothers to go through those clips and find something that's seven years ago, right?

Yeah, what are you doing with your life, man worship slowly that is, you know, you know what they actually, they've got chariot. Like, for example, in the UK, they've got charities, you know, well known charities, they get money, and they get they get money. So in effect a lot of these people, that's what they do as a job. So people are paying a cat for Yes, accardi. And for Bill Phillips and for, I don't know, Mufti menk to be refuted.

I mean, me personally, the 350 pages.

You know, I think they probably written more on you.

Yeah, it probably has, that takes a lot of time. And I can see because the timestamp in things and they with all of the videos, and some of the videos is like trivial ones, like me speaking in a park or something like that. So it is the level of obsession. It's the level of obsession is Yeah, we have one life to live and I have to answer to a love for the time I have on Earth. Do you think I'm going to spend my time talking about other people? Let them have a history shows history shows that they're going to anyone may Allah May Allah grant us a class. Okay, so another question that people had, which was due to some of the stuff you said recently about the Hadoop being bizarre or

something of that nature? problematic? I'm not sure exactly the phraseology used. question I have is what did you mean by that? Okay, that's the first thing. And the second thing is, what is your belief of the place of Hadoop in a, for example, Muslim nation?

So

this is a perfect question for a follow up from the previous This is not something I said recently. It's something I said four or five years ago. And again, these video clips are online. As I said, I have over almost 2000 video clips. And the law has tested me with a group of people who seem a bit unnaturally obsessed with me, in particular, to somehow try to prove that I'm not an authentic version of Islam and, and Allah test people in different ways. And I suppose for me, in particular, one of the issues that definitely did cause this is the fact that I started off a mainstream, you know, nicely set up fee for a while, and then moved on, you know, for years being sad, but not

necessarily naturally. Now. I'm sad. So what happens is that my base, some of it has evolved with me. And some of them they see my evolving as being deviation. And so they are, they feel betrayed, some of them are sincere, I'm not denying that. And some of them just feel as if I'm a threat to another religion of Islam. The point being that in the end, Allah will judge our success. These people that

Every once in a while, pick up a 10 second clip on some aspect and then start making a big issue of ball and we'll build and Zenda tech field comes out. And again, I don't respond to these generally because if I were to open this door, you know, you're hammered. Yes. I think last year, an article and academic articles published about me accusing me of being a Shia foe person who hates Shia and the irony of ironies is that the setup he said that I'm sympathetic to Shia, the she RSM anti Shia, you know, the progressive Sam to to conservative the conservative Sam to liberal. Can you imagine if I were to open this door to defend myself against every single accusation. So because of your

context and backgrounds, your hearing of one segment, but because of who I am, and I wear multiple caps, I am somewhat aware of a lot of people refuting me ironically, polar opposites of each other. Right. And so it's as if their reputations cancel themselves out. That is one of the main reasons I don't get involved in defending myself because it's not really about me. But you bring up this question, and it shows you one of the problems amongst that ism or Neo Marxism, we have to waste our time discussing this issue. None of my students, nobody who listens to my lectures would ever get the impression that I'm dismissing produce, I just gave a series of four on 30 lessons in Oregon.

And before even this fitna began this controversy, the verses of Hadoop came up, and you can listen to me talk over there, I gave that famous LGBT talk earlier this year in my messages, you know, which went viral. And in it, I very explicitly mentioned the Islamic anecdote on this crime and contextualize it, no student of mine would ever derive what these you know, drama queens, I'm sorry to say this, you know, want to derive from their 10 seconds and make a big deal about it, just like what you're going to be and, and as his portal, they create a controversy that is non existent. And they think that they're somehow doing this, you know, service to the oma to discover a secret hidden

agenda. Along with Stan, by the way, these are the tactics of the far right, by the way. And I want to say here for the record, that anybody who's sincere amongst them, inshallah they are forgiven in this world, much less than next, of course, yeah, I think I think a lot of them I think a lot of them to be fair, like, are sincere, because when I put the question on my community page,

a lot of them are your followers or your it's nothing I'm not talking about the followers, I'm talking about those who are doing this, I'm talking about the

the father is a female, protect their emails don't And for the record, without any sense of false humility or modesty, this is the fact stick with the people of knowledge whom you trust, if you feel a person is doubtful, including me, leave that person I'll be the first to say it's not about personalities. It is about the religion of Allah subhana wa, tada, dat Modi will get you there Modi will, if you feel that a particular individual or shift is guiding you to align his message in a perfect in a better manner. Go with that person. If you have doubts about anybody, and you feel I'm not 100% sure, leave that person, but also keep your tongue quiet. Because Don't get involved in

stuff that is not tiny. You know? What did you What did you mean by getting there? I'm getting there. Yes. Now, the issue comes as I said, I wear multiple hats, right? I'm a professor who teaches non Muslims at the time. I'm a preacher who gives hold person, my wife. I'm a public lecture, who addresses large audiences in Muslim conferences and conventions, you know, 100,000 people here 50,000 10,000 here, you know, and that's a different style. I'm a person who on a personal level gives fatwas and gurus and answers Islamic questions one on one. So I give the answer that the person needs. I also teach very advanced classes and athletes and Ron DeRay, see cutting edge

classes at Islamic seminary of America and ask any of my students that have taken that class and they also address hostile crowds of non Muslims. Multiple times I've been invited by communities, especially during the ISIS crisis, to address non Muslims and I have made a promise to myself, This is my promise that whatever I say it should be factually correct, I have to answer to a lot to kind of without the problem comes. When these fledgling sophomores I call them Neo face, but then my other group make fun of me, they Google the word, they look it up and then they start using it as a as a slur on their site called the what you will complete novices or the helplessness of them. They

don't understand that liquidly mataman makaan what you say, is not going to be the same on the audience, depending on when and how you're saying it. When you teach advanced classes is not the same as when you give when you preach a lecture in the book is not the same as when you address 50,000 people in a convention, when you speak to a non Muslim academic audience is not the same as when you speak to a non Muslim hostile generic general public audience. And so this clip that they have with me is me being invited to a community that was going through a lot of issues. The first time they had a public Muslim speaker, it's outside of I think massachu Boston, somewhere

And, you know, the city officials came? If not, I forgot, was it the mayor or the deputy mayor, and it was a lot of people and ISIS is going on. They're taking these Ed slaves going on this and that I'm gonna give a very good talk, and they really liked it. And then it was an open q&a said, any questions you want, the more problematic, the better it is. And so these questions are coming in from a hostile general public, non Muslim audience, Jay. Now, we understand therefore, that this is not an advanced class. It's not after you. That's my teaching. It's basically addressing non Muslims to say that a text is problematic, Michigan is not something that is strange to any student of

knowledge, in fact, of the how he has shot mushkil FL, only talking about ahaadeeth are problematic. Even photocards mushkin. And Heidi the problematic. Have you even heard when he talks about the hadith of Adam being 60 cubits tall? And then he goes, but modern archaeology doesn't have any indication, we'll have bushkill and this is problematic. And then he goes, I don't have an answer to this. Any advanced student of knowledge knows that this term in and of itself is not problematic. It is factually correct to point out and I'm sorry to be a little bit harsh here, but anybody with the two digit IQ would understand that it is factually correct to say these texts are problematic Visser

v. The culture and the norms that we that we follow, they are problematic, just like a bit hedger says the hadith of 60 cubits is Michelle, in light of archaeology. He's not always a biller, any dismissing the Hadith is simply pointing out a factual statement that it is a problem. The Quran says well believable when that this is a verse that is problematic for our culture. Is that something wrong with that? Not at all you are and I come back and kind of how can I play devil's advocate a little bit for them? I know a lot of people will be kind of saying here. And so to represent, obviously, the way of the criticism that I think a lot of people will say all of the

examples that you've given

them, the most killed is being problematize. In Korea in correspondence with say, for example, montek logic or Hadith, which is the sciences, Islamic in its essence blacklisted from a sanity perspective. But if you if someone could argue that well, if you're going to say is Mushkil, from the perspective of our culture,

so it comes across as pitcher returning, so so why should we absorb that culture in the first place in order? That wouldn't be problematize? Yeah, Mohammed, this is the conference, you should take your hammer. This is the conversation that needs to take place with our students. And we begin with this and we push it forward. Listen to my I'm sure you have listened to the talk I gave on the LGBT issue a few months ago, when I went over seven points. The first point of them was exactly what you just said. But yeah, okay. And you know, this was a die. I'm speaking to a group that are not even academics, they're alum. Right. And the point right now is to these people, many of them think Islam

is going to kill us, they're going to just they're demonizing the faith. The goal in this audience is not to convince them of the wisdom of the dude, that's not the time and place to do that. The goal right now is to explain to them Look guys, you know, your texts Leviticus, Deuteronomy also has issues that you understand, but you're still believing Christians. Okay? Now, yes, for me, I'll be able to such like, when I first heard of my, my initial reaction to it is I understood like the situation for like, I get it like,

Doctor Yes, if he means I understood that. The first thing I thought about was mushkil. From grammatical perspective, that is, like some of the some of the

first rule and some of the, you know, what they used to use that language is problem from a grammatical perspective exactly how I'm using it, bro. Like you're saying in early Islam, they problematize the ayat and a hadith have suffered because of month, and they said, these are Michigan, okay. Yeah, our times nobody cares about month. They care about human values. They care about sexuality. They care about gender, think about LGBT. And so it is factually correct to state that this is a V, what we believe to be correct, you guys, I mean, not me, obviously. But you guys believe to correct. Okay, this is an issue, we have to discuss it. And of course, it's not the time

in place to go into every single discussion. Let me give you a simple example here. And again, to illustrate that these brothers that dramatize this, honestly, some of them it is very clear to me and we have personal been of most but some of them, it is very clear that they're obsessed with refuting. And they're not even qualified to refute. They're not even qualified to understand English much less well, so they haven't spent years giving that well. Let me give you a scenario. Imagine if somebody said to die, a famous day Imagine if somebody said in a platform, you know, maybe Christianity is correct, handed to you that hypothetically theoretically, maybe Christianity is

correct, in which case Islam is going to be wrong. But then maybe the opposite is true as well, in which case Islam is true.

Christianity Islam Can you agree to that possibility now? I am 100% certain if I said something like that, I mean these guys would have managed police would explode from ecstasy from if they found that type of video video, you know, a clip from me karelian ism Cofer edited yet. But somehow the law I'm actually paraphrasing the full on itself what in our Jaco wouldn't have you by the movie? This is in the Quran. Either I'm right or you're right one of the two of us is either hidden and the other isn't upon vulnerability. Allah azza wa jal is teaching us the tactic, that you know what, when you're in the middle of that work, you use a different tactic to get your point across. I mean, and

again, I'm going to bring an example not exactly relevant, but the goal is there. What are you going to say when our Prophet Ibrahim alayhis salaam says, How

are you going to have a drama clip about that as well, when he says this to me, and then he corrects that 2030 minutes? So there's one thing there's one thing I would once again, as a push back here, just as one of the one of the main narratives on the right wing, is that Muslims they do here. Okay, so if, if it seems it seems like what we're doing is where we're trying to stretch it, hermeneutically or trying to speak in two different kind of way, not too different. Again, what was my what was? Excellent, what was my point with you, I have to answer to our love. And by the way, I didn't even know that video clip is being recorded. And it's five years ago, and now they find that

10 second, and I say, you know what, it was on the spot, and perhaps I could have worded it in an appropriate manner. But for technically, everything I said, is valid. And I think a lot is within that, you know, even though I didn't always be recorded, I have this in my mind, I have to answer to all of us. And again, I made a judgment call, you have full right, if you were to be put in that position to make a different judgment call. I knew the context, I knew the city, I knew what's going on, I made a judgment call. This is not the battle to be fought right now for this audience. Now, when I did the LGBT talk, and I knew that you're going to have a lot of non Muslims jumping on that.

I need to be explicit and clear. And that was, I didn't shy away, then that's a different platform. I'm talking about LGBT in Islam, right, I need to explain to them, and I did and listen to that lecture and talk, I did not shy away from controversy and explained the Islamic laws there. So it couldn't be more common. And you know, you have every right to disagree with the wisdom of a tactic. But if you look at their comments, and I only I don't, I will, like I haven't even listened to the full video because I don't waste my time. But you know, people send me stuff and whatnot, only, very clearly, within 10 seconds, this is under this is COVID through the Willis carrier converter. This

ideology man will lie. It's a problem here, you know, but but all of their senior, some of them are graduates of Medina. And they are rebelling, yeah, if you are truly for the sake of Allah wanting to warn against individual, make sure your own group does not fall into a bigger mistake, but none of them not to one is correcting the excesses within their own movement. And that's what we saw in buddism, as well give it another year or two, and they're going to start refuting one another because they have nothing in common except a hatred. So just to be clear on the record that you don't, you're not you're not against the Hadoop per se, as seen as yours. No student of mine who

knows my lectures will never derive this from me. I was a bit. Yeah. It's listen to I have 1000 talks, man. I mean, this is what hurts is that this is a blatant accusation that some of these people in fact, I think they know that it's even false. But they find this clip and then they go bizarre with it. And it was like, they have a guide them this sort of thing, you get crystal been to a certain level. But yeah, obviously I need to

know, I think you've made it so clear. So you've you know, as you say,

you don't say Anyway, I've made it clear to you. But Johnny, those who have

now is very clear. I think a lot of people will still say look at the end of the day, you know, it seems a bit capitulates or it seems like you're kind of given them a little bit much, it seems like you

could say

to them, no, I understand. Yeah, Mohammed, let me just say one thing, I encourage those brothers to jump into the fallacy and get involved in town, then you will realize the simple principle, you choose your battles wisely. You cannot fight every single battle at every single lecture. And I made a judgment call, given the circumstances I was with that nobody knows, by the way i the city that I was in I know what's happening there. I knew there was you know, there was a lot of tensions, but not an idea. Yeah, yeah. See these days that those that timeframe was when the anti Sharia bills were being passed across the country. You know, there's this demonization of Islam going on. And the

main goal we had was simply to defend these people are not going to kill you and you're asleep, man, you know, like, just calm down. Just there were all Muslims. We're all living here. It's going to be fine. So it was a different time in place. And I would not say this in an academic conference. I would not say this. It's like I made a judgment call. You're free to disagree. So just just a

A lot a lot of people were thinking that you're moving the notion of I'm not sure if you've heard, I'm sure 110 you've heard the movement of progressive Islam or liberal Islam. Yeah, one of the biggest critics of progressive Islam and intellectually bankrupt. I've said this multiple times, they have nothing to offer me the flavor of the month becomes a favor of Islam. I'm one of the biggest, most vocal critics. But yeah, Mohammed, one very clear point, what we are seeing is a counter reaction from the militancy mean, that anybody who says anything that they don't understand is becoming a progressive. There is this fear, this kickback, that anybody who says something that

is outside their box is essentially going to that side. So what we see is a counter reaction of ultra conservatism, which is also going to be damaging in its own way. Okay. That's we have to be very clear about this point here. This is I am one of those things. That is clear. I think, I think it is clear you've made your position very clear. I think now it's only fair for someone to conclude that you it was it was very contextual, you it was the height of ISIS situation. You didn't know you're being filmed. You're even saying that no, but don't bring that not being filmed is not the point. I stand by what I said and I think a lot of that I didn't fall into an error because that

would have been who would reconsider the phraseology? That's right. Yeah, of course. Yeah. The phrasing cuz you know, you, you put on the spot, man, you're not it's not a prepared lecture notes. You know, you're like, you're asked point blank, but by the way, the videos online, I encourage all of you to listen to all of the questions. All of them were very difficult questions, you know, ISIS labor, Yazidi girls, this and that. I mean, you know, it's a very difficult time in place. And there are people that have never heard of Islam, except through Fox News. I'm the first person that they're coming to. And these are people of the city, the town hall, whatnot. I chose what I chose.

And honestly, I'll be honest, I think I would have said a similar sentiment, if I were to have gone back, given what I know of that situation. Maybe you weren't here. They're different if you were different there. Yeah. Okay. Well, if he wasn't, I could make a big difference. Okay. Now, on this point, I just wanted to go to another thing, which is probably the most, when I put on the community page, the most asked thing, which is there was a video that was released by one of our brothers

some time ago, but I'm wrong. And he released his big, big video about the leaks of some kind of email chat, that you were involved in about preservation of Quran. Okay. And he says, You were very candid on on the points before, with the motherland things. Will we will need to be very candid in terms of your your, your position here. I mean, what is your position in relation to the preservation of quorum is, for example, house and house and the White House on arson? juicy as preserved monosol from a loss of power? Or do you not see that as much as I was change? J. Okay, so first and foremost, let's assess international business to grow under the hood I have. So we believe

as a matter of theology, as a matter of our pay that unless pedodontist preserve the Koran, no question about no number of points to let me answer this question in two parts. First of them the story of what happened very briefly, secondly, this issue after the story of what happened, so there was a listserv, I pretty sure no longer exists where a certain brother started a list server, you know, Google group, whatever you call it, for all Western graduates of Islamic universities, you know, across the world. So you had deobandis, you had selfies from Medina, you have from Riyadh, you had from azog, the condition was you had to be a graduate of a reputable accepted program, you know,

so it was a small, I don't know, maybe 50 to 70 people, I'm not sure how many i'm not i'm not the organizer, but I was one of those invited to because obviously, the conditions are fulfilled. And there's all different types of cutting edge, one after shot between people of knowledge, you know, as it happens, okay. And one of the main conditions was everything is an Amanda, because we are not, this is not Johnny, we're having internal, you know, when you discuss with appear or with a colleague, you're going to be back and forth discussing what not it's not publishable material. And so this issue came up, we had a lot of discussions about plida and nitida. And I presented my views

there, we have other discussions, and the issue of, you know, karate, and foreign and Afro came up, and you know, 100, and now we had a very interesting discussion. We're all different views were given back and forth, there's at least 160 70 emails between maybe 30 brothers back and forth. And you know, there were people that were on the right of me, there were people on the left of me, but again, Allah has tested me because I'm so happy, all those other emails were ignored. And it's, you know, my bits and pieces. So one of the brothers and he did something again, unethical, he was expelled from the list of the list was basically banned because of that stuff. Because of that, he

couldn't refute to my arguments. So he sent it to one of your buddies in, in England. And so then, of course, this mechanic gave it to the other one and so obviously, any everything, you know, all whatever broke loose. But again, this was not something I brought up in public, and I would never bring it up in public. And I don't think

It is wise to bring it up in public. We were having an Amana base. One thing I think the person who brought it up was was not a Metallica say is just to be clear, like he was. Yeah, he's more on the right in terms of but he's not for all intensive purposes not like a card carrying. When I say mockery, I mean the Neo Batali standard, I mean, the new eye view, I view this person as the same strand of funding for mistakes and false and he should do something better with his life anyway, I don't know. I don't know, the brother I need doesn't really bother me. But my point is that what happened was unethical. Were you having dialogue discussion? And by the way, even in their series of

emails, I said, you know, I'm still developing my ideas. We're having a discussion to go back and forth. That's what you do, when you're having a meeting now for this brother to then spread it and make it that was something that he has to answer for the Day of Judgment. And if it was done out of ill intention, I shall not forgive anything done out of ill intention against me, unless they apologize to me on my my suing is going to be in the court of law. This is by the way, a blanket statement, everybody who is refuting other people, I speak for myself, if you're if you have in your heart disease, and has said and hipped and you don't apologize to me, in that case, my hisab is

front of a lot of storage, and that will get your hands on that. So do what you will, anybody who's sincere and shut up, no problem, you are forgiven. And anybody who comes to me, anybody who comes to me, is automatically forgiven, because that shows that that is remorse. Anyway, My point being that this brother did something, how long he's going to be asked about, because that is not something that should have been done to lekan a private email amongst fellow students of knowledge. Okay, so that is why I never got involved in deeply defending because it was unethical in the first place, breach of breach of a man. Now, as for the issue itself,

every single student of knowledge knows who studies original core on that the most difficult topics are from karate, and the concept of truth and the reality of growth. And the relationship of the mathematical side with the growth and the preservation of the arrow visit one is a three is it seven, and the relationship of the two the this is a topic that one year, the beginning beginning student of knowledge, you're like, what is all of this going on here? When you go a little bit more, you learn to simply memorize what your teacher say and regurgitate it out, and you don't fully comprehend. When you do a deep dive, is when things get very, very awkward and difficult. And this

isn't new. This is from the time of the Sahaba in the Sahara the has an editable they become the hadith of that after that when the Prophet says and mentioned the issue of growth, and that there are different and whatnot. This is in the version of Muslim abiomed or where you've been calvess authentic hadith for definitely FFC check. In my heart, a doubt came that I hadn't had about Islam since the days of Jamia

This is not a joke brothers and sisters, the issue of

cause confusion to somebody whom the Prophet system said if you want to listen to the Quran directly, listen, to obey, obey is not some even average Sahaba He is the author of the Quran. He is the master. He is who he is. And he goes for the heartbeat of seashells. What is all this stuff? And the process of the Prophet put it put his hand and then he goes, how it all went away? Yes, he me and you we don't have that blessing, do it. And you don't have that blessing. Now,

again, this is the few who have asked us a very honest question is the first time I'm saying these things. Many people are were who listen to my lectures that I've mentioned, the crises that happened to me at IU, my first year in yield. It wasn't a crisis of faith. By the way, I was very clear about this people misinterpreted It was a crisis of my understanding of knowledge. It was a crisis of what my teachers taught me and handed it to the law as somebody who remembers as a teenager hamdulillah in my entire life, I have never doubted that the Quran is divine. You cannot doubt that any you listen to what you recite it, you just cannot doubt it. It's never been an issue. Now for the first

time, I'm telling you here. What was the crisis? I mentioned it references but it never explicitly said it. Why didn't I say it? Because it should not be said in public. But unfortunately, these brothers because they release the emails, so then I have to then get to get it. This was the issue that the issue of growth and preservation and clear art and relationships between them. These are very, very difficult issues and the most advanced of our scholars.

They're not quite fully certain how to solve all of the unanswered questions in there. Even a Jedi who without a doubt, is the greatest scholar of art for the last 1000 years. Even though Jedi famously writes I have been thinking and pondering. Oh, yes. I've been thinking and pondering about the issue of the growth in karate for over 35 years. Nathan within that data center, he said right, and confused and whatnot. Then finally, this is my recent

By the way, even that seven, all leaders call this a world that doesn't make any sense. So they kind of dismissed even that after 35 years, the greatest scholar. So except

it doesn't answer the question. Anyway, I don't want to get into that issue. Okay, why do I not want to get to that issue? Here's the point. These issues should only be discussed amongst people who know what they are, and to understand some of these questions that are being so what you're saying the check that came or not the check, but the crisis that you had was in relation to this question of the relationship between basically No, no, that the crisis I had wasn't that the crisis I had was? Well, yeah, that that was what generated was the crisis, the crisis was very simple. And by the way, this is now a well known open secret amongst many Muslim graduate students and academics around

the world. And this was well known, traditional understandings of African art cannot answer some of these pressing questions that are now being poked by our people outside of by our academics, our by their academics outside of the faith tradition, you see, in a Muslim environment, there's always some respect that we have for the Hold on, we should, in a Muslim environment, we'll press a little bit, and then we'll say, Okay, hello, somewhere in the world. And that's great hamdulillah. When you go to academia, they don't have that red line. And they're going to just, you know, the, the the famous story of the Emperor with no clothes, they're gonna just point out No, that doesn't make any

sense. Well, that's not true. And this and that, and they'll bring issues, which I'm not going to mention explicitly, that you know, are true, because they're in your own books that aren't inventing anything new. They'll bring you the wire, and they'll bring you a thought. And then you add to that very well known issues of, I don't even want to be explicit, then you bring on top of that muscle thought and then and then. And it's very clear to you and to every single, very advanced students and specialists, that the standard narrative has holes in it. That's what I'm going to say, the standard narrative does not answer some very pressing questions. Okay, this is what I'm going to

say. And what I took here, let me finish this one, because it's a very important word, electrical finishes. And by the way, if you are following online media and articles and whatnot, this is no longer hidden news. More and more professors and academics are writing stuff, and it's being publicized on Twitter, in the last two, three years, I have had at least I'd say, a dozen people tweet at me, like specific articles, like how do you answer this and you know, about bootable, quote on Ubuntu talks about multiple talks about the issues, you know, these are not well known within the western Academy, that they're bringing forth issues, their level of now knowledge is leaps and

bounds above what it used to be, you know, 100 years ago, no. And by and large, our odema in the eastern world, are not aware, by and large of what's going on in the western side of things. And they're not answering those questions in a manner that it needs to be answered. And this is something all of us that are in academia fully acknowledge, we actually have a list by the way, I am involved with a group of people 15 of them, which is especially all of us are Muslims, for father, karate, karate experts, any academic minded as well, not everybody's Karate Kid, but all of us are basically practicing Muslims, we have a group that is discussing amongst itself these issues, and

then have the delay any one of them. I'll just mention this, that the European paper on karate is one of our group members as well. And here, you can log on to your feed, and he has a paper on it. That's one interpretation that does a great service. But it doesn't answer all the questions. My point being that this issue of interest has troubled the oma from the very beginning of time, it's nothing new. And there are 15 opinions about this. None of them fully answered all of the questions that are raised, some of them answer more than others. So the issues of the relationship of the origins of the life and all of this should only be discussed amongst those who are familiar with

this science. And if you want to, and I'll be very again, open minded here. I did a class last semester with Islamic Center America, on animal products. And in that class, we took students and we introduced them, this is what I say, this is what God said, This is what Fudan said, and then we introduced him to the other side, and then we developed it takes a while, I can't answer this question in a 20 minute interview, nor is it wise to do so. Which is why I never brought this topic up myself. You will not find one lecture of mine about this issue. It should never be brought up in public and I don't like these idiots and they are idiots will lie, because they're the ones who

caused this in this issue. They're utter idiots who did something wrong. And I don't like saying this. This is not something you discuss amongst the masses. You actually it's not wise. You don't understand? Can I let it be? It's worse. That's why I never did it. And that's why even when they accused me, I didn't defend myself because I would rather people have doubt about me than the foreign let them throw me off. The man has no problem believing the book of Allah subhanho wa Taala. But what is happening in the last few years is not

me anymore. It's the western academics these these problems are now becoming mainstream. Twitter has so many accounts of foreign experts and they're non Muslims. Are they just saying things? There are books written that a grill released a book by Shadi Nasir, again, the only read that book as well. So for those that are interested in stuff, and you'll understand that, hey, we need odema who believe in the Quran to defend the Koran and handed anathema hamdulillah overshadow our group. Let me ask you one question to try and make this as specific as possible. I think if I were to give you a blank Muslim, yeah. And, and tell you to write what is more or less said verbatim from Allah, into

that must have with no human interference. Would you write something which correspond? It's not an easy answer. It's not an easy yes or no, it is enough for the Muslim to believe that I think this should be an easy yes or no, though. Yes, I have to. Okay, very well. So yeah, Mohammed, after we get off this phone call me and you? Let's have a number of discussions. No problem. I'm very open with advanced students. But these issues should not look it is cunnamulla. What is going to be written? It is cunnamulla. What would you write? let's not let's you're pushing me. And I'm saying it's not hikma to listen, I have a condition. Like I said, Everything I say is going to be factual.

If I wanted to do toady and whatnot, I would do it right now in front of you, there is no need for toja the Koran is the uncreated speech of Allah, the Quran is preserved, the Quran is known, the Quran is motivated and a half hamdulillah all of the karate, or the Koran, all of the karate are authentic, and hamdulillah leave it at that yahi beyond this, honestly, I have no problem, we'll have a discussion or take my class. But beyond this requires background information, it is enough for the Muslim to know that the Quran is the speech of Allah that has been protected. And what we recite is the column of a law, that is enough for the Muslims. I appreciate what you're saying. But

I The reason why I don't want to kind of leave it too vague here is because I feel like if if there are vagaries in what we say here, then it's going to bolster.

The initial whoever said privately or not is gonna is going to give credence to that. So let me say one thing is that over the last any me I've been discussing this issue, talking about my little more Koran book that I wrote,

was published when I was 2021. So it's been 25 years, 26 years that I have been thinking about the perfect product, right. And that book represents the standard mainstream of of Islamic thought, and it's a very advanced book, that is the standard physicians out there. Now, over the last 25 years, especially over the last 10 years, I have been doing a deep deep deep dive into this issue, going back to the original sources, getting consulting experts, and I have a workable theory and shout out to either when the time is right, I will publish books and papers on this in the meantime, what have I done by them, but let me let me finish this point here. Let me finish points is very important

before I lose my train of thought, What have I done? No I have approach around it doesn't earn a mother I look up to

and I mentioned some of the names but you ascribe this to me. Sure. Akram nadwi. Chicago Lucifer Judea in England.

Pamela, the economic expert in Medina, actually, when I went to Medina made a point to contact him. And we had a one on one discussion. And I've presented the findings of our group, it's not just me, like 50 of us are thinking about these issues, we understand some of these modern problems and whatnot. And I presented the fonasa to all of these people who are world top notch experts, some of them, I'm not going to mention these right now, because I don't know if they want me to fully agreed. Some of them said, these are really interesting ideas, I need time to think about them. And in the meantime, I want you to present it to me in written form. Okay, one of them. If I can push

back here, just a little bit, I noticed is I don't want to make you uncomfortable, but it's just just to make things clearer. As you as you know, I spent a lot of time of shift here. And we had these conversations about the Crocs, like for many years I would say many years I've had these conversations with him his view is that okay the karate is very he made that public it's not something which is on his YouTube page. I think what I'm that's fine the full for many years many people have said that even though I've completely I vehemently disagree with the idea that the FDA that things are not motivated but many people for many years if you look at the early times, you had

to have I don't know poverty, whatever is clear that the question of collateral was not was not always that straightforward one

with all templates, though, like dosh, but what I was gonna kind of push because this question here, I think if it's left unanswered, a lot of people will have doubts in your position. That if Look, if if someone gave you a Koran which is empty in terms of there's no there's nothing on it and give you a pen obviously you'll have fun with your art. Obviously you can you can use the I know with a smoke tool.

But the question is, would what you write in that must have correspond with any? I'm not saying it's a motivator, I'm saying would it? Would it be authentic? Would it correspond to anything that we have, in terms of the rewired? And across is if? If the answer is no, then for all intents and purposes, what you could be portrayed as saying is that you have a view, which is not only completely anti normative, but is beyond the scope of what was written for 1500 years. So someone will say that it is beyond the scope, not only who's going to bring a new product that we're going to have on there, but which can I will it be it, it will be probably a mixture, right? It's not

going to be Yeah, okay. So let's leave it at that. It's gonna it's not going to be the exact house and house and BYOD funan are sure, but this is something that is coming at a later stage. Okay. Okay, codification of the characters coming in the second third century of the of the joy, you could say, is a record fully recognizable by the average Muslim, obviously,

we're not presenting something that's

showing it but the reason why is because I know how things will take your color. Okay, so no other course it will be.

Obviously, what? So? So, yes, if that's what you're asking that How could it be left? Okay, so you got my mind thinking in a much more advanced level? No, no, obviously, if we were to present any empty most often, you could. So the issue comes

as a problem. The problem is very simple. Any Yeah. Are you certain that that's the way that it was in early Medina, because just like the codification occurred, but what you would have let me put it this way, would definitely be something the average Muslim recognizes and understands and will not all of it is verbatim from Allah. How can this isn't the Hadith F is exactly how could that one's it? It's literally what the prophet system said, How can that one's it? It's literally what you said. And that's, and again, this is, I encourage anybody who is really interested to go deep to take the class, I do this class, it would be one year later, I had 100 students, by the way, 100,

and none of them, I was worried one of them I problematize. But because you see, when you take a group of students, and you develop with them, right, it's not a 10 second clip that they're just gonna have to have fun. I had 100 students take that over foreign class. And I went over every one of these issues with time and with reading, and by developing their minds, no problem. Some of them were not experts in product, no problem. We we gave them the background information, and we took it with them. But in this 20 minute interview with half an hour interview, okay, it is wiser to not do a deep dive. That's what I'm saying. But But

no, duh, you answer your question. The average Muslim would recognize this, if you know some cannot, because you're gonna say what is Maliki medica. But if he understands, what he's going to see is going to be something that is very, very, he knows this, that this is exactly what it is not going to find anything is always free. So what do you do? Right? So yeah, so just to be clear, if you write down, it might not be a standard analysis. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. But what you write

is recognizable. And you believe and you believe that everything within that is more or less

100% as a as a witness? 100%. That is the belief.

That's, that's very good. So your position in that case? wouldn't be any different from the Moto kundiman? Many of let's leave it at that. I don't want to confuse the few though. Yes. The early what's been understood this. That's my point. Yeah. The earliest scholars of karate fully understood this. But what happened was a switch switch in the sixth seventh century, which kind of then ossified to tradition. As for the Anyway, let's not go there. So you're right.

That's fine. So one last question, I'll just end this kind of conversation has been a lot of discussions here and there. But for someone who talks on a very advanced level, but let's just try and benefit the majority of people that are listening to this guy's talking about if someone wants to start now, kind of learning Islam and get involved and maybe they haven't got a full command of the Arabic language, but they want to start books. What would you advise in terms of where to go? What to not only just books, but bodies of work videos, okay. You mentioned your car, for example. So that's something people can maybe refer to. But is there anything in addition to that, that you

would, that you would put them towards? Yes. So we have to understand this. Now, we're not talking about those interested in

academic Islamic study in western institutions as a whole different track. We're talking about the average Muslim who wants to study the deen to come closer to Allah and to worship a lot appropriate manner. For this person. Obviously, they need to stick with the mainstream sciences of Islam, you need to understand you need to start doing your basics of Tajweed. This is a very simple science, you need to start the basis of fifth I advise every Muslim who's interested to find a teacher and to do a one on one whatever you choose is fine, just do any so that you're under

And how to worship a lot how to pace the gap what to be done so under and i'm not i wouldn't advise online fix should be done one on one as much as possible okay? Because you can misunderstand something to be problematic as well of course you said the syrup and I also have the lessons of the poor on the summary of the Quran as well the 30 lessons I've done is also something useful inshallah other any all of this mainstream machines that you know and move to make and all of them and I'm assuming all of them after they have some benefit, listen to them. It'll keep your mind preoccupied questions will come. But there must be one person in your community that you have access to that you

trust, because you need that one on one. Because if you have a problem, an issue, you should be able to go to that person and then question that person. And other than that Effie, there's no set curriculum. It's just the concepts you need to do your basic theology, your basic fifth, you know, your basic you start memorizing for God, and overall be with people. It's not necessary to become an alum, but it is very essential to associate yourself with the people in it does have a very positive impact on you spiritually.

Does that Blofeld? authorea sahadi I think many people would have really and you know, well, first of all, very grateful to have you on but secondly, very grateful for your openness and honesty. And I feel like the summer that I've come from this is going to be

something of benefit for so many people. I hope so inshallah. And again, my final advice to these brothers look here for you, Allah subhana wa, tada has made this religion very, very vast from the very beginning, the Sahaba had multiple understandings and interpretations. It's not just about choose those whom you feel most comfortable with and then be quiet about the rest as simple as that. If he no one of them is going to be the end all and beall no one person of knowledge is going to destroy Islam either. So love the one whom you love with a little bit of less passion and hate the one to trade with a little bit of less passion. And if you are

exactly and if you are attracted to

desire, yeah, if you're attracted to a certain group of aroma stick with them hamdulillah as long as they're mainstream. Yeah, I think all mainstream Sunni movements have faded. This is my position. Or the very fact that there's large quantities of Sunni Muslims of all of these movements in sha Allah Fie him here there's good in them whether you're a deal Bundy, whether you're declining, whether you're setting up whether you're any, you know, moderate Sufi, because obviously, all of them they have handed them, find your Gemma that appeals to you, stick with them, and then be quiet about other Muslims. Okay, that's not the priority. There are people leaving Islam there, there are people

that are islamophobes take that passion that you have, and then bring somebody who's not even praying closer to Islam, bring somebody who has doubts about Islam and bring him closer to Islam. And for the sake of Allah subhana wa Tada. Remember, you have a legacy you want to leave, you will not build your legacy by destroying the legacy of others, you will end up destroying yourself. And generally speaking, not harming people that are building their legacies, we ask Allah subhana wa Tada. Most importantly, for your flaws always make up for your class, because that's the most important thing. And then after your class, we want to avoid that a lot of surgeon will accept from

us ask Allah subhana wa tada to protect our sins and to cover up our mistakes and to forgive and our protectors and sorry, to cover up our sins over the left and to protect the good that we have done. And to also, you know, covered all of us have faults here who were none of us, none of us perfect, and allows us to deal with covers our faults. And you know how the witnesses said, I really appreciate your probing questions. That's why I agreed to the interview with you that I find you to be somebody who doesn't shy away from the tough questions, but at the same time, is willing to listen, I appreciate that. And I asked anyone who has any issues, they're free to come to me one on

one, and you will find me to be very honest person like, Charlie, you see this as well. And if you really want to do more than this free plug here, attend or sign up for my classes of Islamic seminary America, where I'm really going and doing deep dives in whatever class that I do. By the way, are you aware next semester, I am teaching modern or advanced headed by with Jonathan Brown who are going to be co tagging me and him for a lot more work. So yeah, so you guys should even if it's just an online attendee just like you registered for the class is going to be very exciting class where once again, Islamic seminary is cutting edge, we do the classical stuff. At the same time we

introduced it to what is going on in the western blot and then we merge together and we defend the tradition but how we defend it might not necessarily be the way it was defended 1000 years ago, and that's something you have to prepare for, but just looking at Mohammed, I hope that inshallah

we'll do this again. I had a good time.

I'm sure I'm sure you did. Otherwise, no probing questions, a lot of whether it would be too, too boring. Yeah.

Yeah.