Channel: The Deen Show
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Bismillah Alhamdulillah wa salam alaikum Peace be with you. Welcome to the D show. Thank you for tuning in. I'm Eddie, your host. And we got back in the studio with us today, Dr. Lawrence Brown. I'm gonna tell you a little bit about Dr. Lawrence Brown. He is a doctor by profession former US Air Force major. Someone say he's a Christian scholar. He's got some knowledge of the Bible, some knowledge of Christianity, he went from being an atheist tried very hard to be a Christian didn't fit. It didn't
work. And he became a Muslim he consciously chose to submit not to a man to him, but the creator men and women to one God, and he still fall into the teachings of Jesus. How is that? We're going to be talking about this. And this week's show. So don't go nowhere. Right back. This is the thing.
This is the
this is the
Salam Alaikum Peace be with you, Dr. Brown, how are you? Well, I can see.
Now what you say you said something in Arabic, what's going on here? Can you translate it for English for our not yet Muslim audience? We will come back to this later in the show I expect in Sharla. Okay, I'm going to hold you to that. Okay. You haven't
been too lucky. wabarakatuh Peace be upon you. What I've come to LA he
and the Rama, the mercy of Allah, Allah, wa barakatu and the blessings. Now you have a DD, doctor in divinity. You have a PhD in religious studies. And people can go to the deen, show calm to hear your conversion story, how you accepted Islam. Now, when I opened the show, I said, because you accepted Islam, that complete total submission and surrender, acquiring peace, by submitting yourself to donor. He's the One God the same way of life that was led by all the messengers of God, including Jesus, I said, you still follow many of the teachings that Jesus followed. Yeah, my lion was telling a lie. But you're Muslim. How does this work? No, well, this is the point. And I frequently get into
this discussion with Christians, where I just point out to them, I say, okay, you say you are a Christian? Fine. Okay. Well, look, first of all, you know, as Muslims, everybody is allowed to choose their own religion, okay? If you want to be Christian, that's fine. If I want to be Muslim, that's my choice. You know, everybody, everybody has the right to choose their own religion, and we should live in the spirit of mutual tolerance of that choice. Okay. However, in the spirit of interfaith dialogue, when when we do get into this discussion, what I like to point out is when somebody calls themselves Christian, this means this means that they consider themselves to be a
follower of Jesus Christ. Right? So we're going to set that straight. So a Christian is supposed to be someone who is following the teachings of Jesus Christ. Well, what does Chris Shin mean? Why don't you just find that take us give us a little bit of a history lesson just in this word Christian, where it stems from the Hebrew coming along to the English. Can you just briefly what does this word actually mean that, well, if you look in the Bible, if you follow the, excuse me, if you look in the Bible, you find the first reference to Christian it was it was said 42 years after the time of
Jesus as mentioned at Antioch. And it was actually it was considered to be a derogatory term, it was not a polite term. It was like, you want to be you want me to be a Christian, you know, sort of, in this spirit, so it was considered a derogatory term. However, with rather typical Christian humility, and I mean that in a good way, not a bad way. But in typical Christian humility, they adopted the term and and kept it to, to basically identify their group. Now we have to remember that the original followers of Jesus Christ were Jews. They were Jews. They consider themselves Jews for many generations, and they were proud to be considered Jews. It was only later that the the division
between the Jews
To follow the teachings of Jesus and the Jews who did not follow the teachings of Jesus, this divide became wide enough that historically, they started to become identified by a different term. Originally they started started to be called Christian Jews by historians, until basically they split to being called Christians period. Did Jesus call himself a Christian? No, never. Did you ever hear this word Christian? No Christianity? No. And you have to remember, you know, the, if you look in the Bible, the word Christian is it's only found three times. And
it none of these occurrences occurred during the lifetime of Jesus Christ. It it did not exist. Christian has found three times Christianity is found nowhere in the Bible. You don't find it anywhere. And and it stems of course from Christ, but you have to remember, Jesus Christ was not walking around saying Christ, okay, okay, what what, you know, the, the word that was, you know, translated to be Christ was basically, you know, Messiah. Well, you know how the,
in Hebrew it was the word for Messiah, and it was translated to, to,
to Christos, and in Greek, and then from the coin, a Greek, in it was anglicised to Christ. But the key here is, we have to remember that, that was not an exclusive term.
If you look, if you look in the Old Testament, you find this the this word, for Messiah, this word for Christ, applied to many different individuals. It was it was applied 30 times to the Davidic kings, it was applied six times to the, to the high priest, and it was applied twice to the patriarchs of the Old Testament. And so you had you had roughly 38 different individuals, or 38 different instances in which other individuals were identified with the same term, translated to Christ, as Jesus Christ. So,
as Muslims, we do not argue with the fact that Jesus Christ was the Christ, do we believe he was the Messiah, but we, you know, we believe that he was a man, he was a prophet, he was, you know, he was a prophet sent by God, he brought a revelation to the people to try to bring them back from, from the deviation that had crept into their religion. But but but the point is, I'm just I'm just saying to set the record straight. Jesus was a common name. Okay, up until that time, Jesus was a common name. And there were many other individuals who were also identified by the same term, which is translated to Christ. It was he did not have an exclusive on that term. And also we believe he was
the Messiah. Well, I mean, he's identified as one of the Messiah, one of the Messiah. Yeah, I mean, there are, you know, again, as Muslims, we believe in a continuity in the chain of revelation there. There were many prophets, bringing the Word of God to many different. What does this word mean?
Messiah, actually, it means anoint, or more anointed. Yeah. So anybody who was anointed, you find the root of this word applied to
two nonliving things, things that were things that were anointed. Yeah. that were identified by the same by the same root word. Let me bring us back now now. Okay, so excuse me, any individual any individual who was anointed, was was identified as a Messiah. Let's go back to the original question now. Okay. So we know where this word stems from Jesus never used it. He never knew of this word. But today, people call themselves Christians. So if you'd ask a Christian, they say we're following Christ. But we say we're also following Christ. Now, when I opened the show, I said, you're following Christ. You were trying hard to be a Christian, right? But you're not a Christian, but
you're following Christ. What does this mean? Well, I think this is the point. The point is that
Christians believe by, you know, the name of the religion, themselves to be the followers of Christ. Muslims also believe themselves to be the followers of Christ. And, and so you have these two different religions, both of them saying, we follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. The question is, who really is doing it, who really is doing it? Let's take a break and we right back with more hands additional. No speech is better than to do
call people to Allah and to do the word no speeches better. No, nothing is better than that. Is it true that if one person on the Allah giving you the ability to guide someone, the last permission, the creator's permission that is better than everything in this world, but in the whole world and everything that's in it in another generation, it's better than the best of worlds. But if we really felt that, Eddie, would we not be getting out getting go? And this is something that we encourage all the MSA, all the dowel organizations, the machines to get this we want to create more we give these to the non muscles for free for free for free. We want our brothers in humanity.
I am not afraid to say
I am not afraid to stand alone.
I am not afraid to say
I am not afraid to stand alone.
I am not afraid.
I am not afraid.
I'm not afraid.
Back here on the D show with Dr. Lawrence Brown. Thank you for being on the show my pleasure. It's always a pleasure to have always. Now we are talking about Jesus peace be upon him who is beloved to our hearts. He's one of the mightiest messengers of God, we believe no Muslim is a Muslim girl as he believes that she believes in Jesus. So we're not the Antichrist.
You know, some people would say like these Muslims are the Antichrist. Right? Of course, and they're trying to project their dislike for the religion. And this is just an excuse that they come come up with but Islam the Islamic religion honors Jesus Christ honors his mother Marian. And, and we we revere him for what he was a man, a prophet.
Somebody who God chose to convey revelation to the people.
someone make a strong argument and say, hold on, hold on that we as Muslims, would you agree follow the teachings of Jesus more than the Christians do? Well,
okay, some make that statement. What I like to just throw out is for people just to look at the evidence and come to their own conclusion. So we can say a talk is cheap, but we can back it up with evidence.
Look, let's break it down. Go ahead, please break it down.
If you're talking with a Christian, it's just kind of natural to say okay, you're a Christian, you say you're a follower of Christ. I'm a Muslim. I say I'm a follower of Christ. Let's let's just compare some basic issues and see who's really doing it. Okay.
ask anybody close their eyes and with their eyes closed just conjure up an image of what they conceive Jesus Christ to have looked like.
Hold on doing that right now. Dr. Brown I'm doing that right now. Some people you know, they have African American, you know, with black eyes and curly hair, but someone else's clothes inside they got blonde hair and this church over here blond hair blue eye, and in another church, they got the Hey, Zeus, you know, Hispanic looking, which one is it? Well, look what church you're at.
Okay, and this is because a lot of people have turned the reality of Jesus into a fantasy of Jesus, but they all want to
be you know, me, they have they have tried to sort of model him to be closer to their heart's desire. Ah, but my point my point is that no matter no matter how a person sees them, I still see a beard on him. That's right. That's right. I see a beard like yours kind of and like yours. Okay. And and like we see among some Christians, but certainly not the majority. Very few Christians wear a beard, and very few wear a beard because they are following the example of the Prophet. They might say didn't have razors back then. Okay, but let's move on because this is kind of a superfood. Okay. Because first of all, yeah, they did. I mean, there were plenty of people who shaved. Yeah, all
right. They were plenty of shade. But he had a beard. But the point yeah, I mean, okay. The point was that if we if we think about it, just from the very sort of superficial aspect of what Jesus Christ let's move along from their beard, because let's not get stuck on the point. I mean, we know that Jesus Christ, I mean, he wore a beard, okay. His his mother, Marian. If you conjure up an image of her you always see her wearing a headscarf. Okay. walk into any church. Look at the stained glass windows. Look at the paintings. Look at the sculptures she's always covered. That's like the Muslim headscarf which is more like what you encounter with Muslim headscarf, gotcha, gotcha encounter
commonly with you know, Christians on the ice, okay. Okay. In the same way. Picture Jesus Christ standing during the
sermon of the map or any other time, what do you see him wearing? He's wearing loose, not form fitting clothing, a long rope to the wrist to the ankles, maybe tied at the waist by a rope, maybe not. But it doesn't show his form its address of modesty. Okay? And again, where do you see people dressing with modesty more among the Muslims, or among the Christians, many of whom were very revealing clothing, but by you know, by yesterday, your standard This is like the Muslim thobe would you compare it to it like the Muslim thobe or the Muslim, even the Muslim a buyer for men what they call the buyer for men.
And, but all I'm saying is like, for example, if you took the people of this time, and you transported them back 100 years in this country in America, and you walk them down Main Street, USA, the Christians, many of the Christians the way they're dressing now, they would be ostracized by their own people. Okay, go go and look at go and look at movies that, you know that that were, you know, filmed about the people of this time where they portray them in their realistic clothing. And you'll see the women, the women will dress again, you know, long flowing dresses, you know, to the wrist to their ankles will head head bonnets and so on and so forth. So this is resembling more than
Muslim. Now, again, again, we're talking about the fact that the Muslim embodies the appearance, okay? the you know, the appearance of the woman, the headscarf the appearance of the dress, this, this is all now kind of, you know, superficial aspects of who Jesus was more, give us more, please, you know, now let's go to let's go to something else, let's just go to how he carried himself what he was about. Yeah, he was a man of modesty. He was a man of humility. He was a matter of quality.
When we think of Jesus Christ, we think of somebody who spoke about salvation, who reminded us of religious values. We don't think about somebody who is constantly dealing with worldly, you know, aspects of our existence. Again, it's just been my experience, when you're in a circle with Muslims, you find that the Muslims are much more commonly talking about religious issues, and sort of bringing any conversation back to
back to this, then, then you find in a common, you know, just in this sort of common workplace chatter or whatever, among Christians, or Yeah, okay. Now, this is not a big point, you know, and the big points are more to follow. But so you're saying the Muslims now are more talking about spiritual development of the human being talking about the prophets about the one God and we're over here, you got more material things that, you know, the people are focusing on nightclubs, dancing, hooking up with women, things that Jesus never talked about? Yeah. Look, it's just you know, most Christians know that in Christianity. Most people in Christianity have made the religion of pretty
much a Sundays only religion. Yeah. Okay. And, Jesus, this is a 24 seven thing for him. Yeah, exactly. And you know, you find Muslims praying five times a day, making ablution. Before, before prayer, and how do you forget your religion, if you're making evolution before your prayer, praying five times a day getting you know, getting up, you know, early morning for the first prayer, staying up, you know, in the night for the last prayer? And so, I mean, how do you forget your religion? your religion cannot become a Sunday's only sort of thing when you're doing it every day. Did he do this make evolution? Did he fall on his face? Like we fall on our face and pray? Okay, now, that's
another step. Yeah. Okay, let's, we've talked about appearance. All right. We've talked about manners, one of the elements of manners, let's look at something that that Jesus Christ actually told us to do. All right. He told us to offer the greeting of peace. He instructed his disciples that when they meet one another, offer the greeting of case though, like we did, like we did in the beginning. That's what I'm coming to. That wasn't that's Luke 10. Five, okay. And Luke 10, five, he instructed them, but then he, he actually acted out the example four times and Luke 2436, and john 2019 2021, and 2026. Okay, so one time he gave them a directive, and then four times, he actually
gave them the example of offering the greeting of peace. And that's why I was saying in the beginning, we'll come back to this because you find that practice among the Orthodox Jews, right? You find that practice in the Old Testament, you find it in Genesis, you find it in numbers, you find it in Judges, you find it in First Samuel. And so there again, there's an example where, okay, we've talked about appearance. Now, we've talked about manners, where the Muslims always greet one another Salaam Alaikum. You know, peace be upon you, walakum salam, and until the peace. How many Christians do you find following this very simple directive. You
You might say, Oh, this is a small thing come on. This is a little if it's a little thing Why don't you do it? You know, it's not like Jesus Christ was telling you to move mountains. Yeah, he was just saying, offer peace. So why don't you do it? So these are some of the details major minor but it seems like if you're trying to fit the description of who's following this these might mean it major minor. It seems like the Muslims Yeah, but look, now this is minor. And I know what everybody out there is proud about the major give us almost out of time. So tell us something major, something that really can rock you know, just rocks and bodies mind practices of worship today. First of all
religious practices. Jesus Christ was circumcised Paul said it wasn't necessary in Romans 411. Jesus Christ didn't eat pork, according to Old Testament law, Leviticus 11, seven and Deuteronomy 14 getting
me some more. Jesus Christ didn't practice usually either given giving or taking according to the law of Exodus 20 to 25. Okay. He did not have any contact with females, members of the opposite sex, he didn't shake hands, he didn't touch. I'm not talking about having, you know, relations, I'm saying even the least little contact, okay? That's, that's those are religious practices, you know, and, in keeping with the Old Testament law, move on to practices of worship, he performed the evolution before praying as do all Orthodox Jews. Exodus 4031.
He, he prayed and prostration The only description of Jesus Christ praying in the Bible was in the garden of guest 70 where he fell on his face in prayer. Okay, and if you look at the Old Testament, you find that Ezra Joshua, Abraham, Moses, Aaron, they're all described as praying in prostration. So this was not just his example. This was the example of all the prophecies he brought, He fasted for more than a month at a time, and he made a pilgrimage now, okay, who makes evolution before, before prayer to Muslims the most, who prays in prostration, the Muslim five times a day, the Muslims, who fasts a month out of every year, the Muslims who makes religious pilgrimage once in
their lifetime required as a tenant of faith, the Muslims, is that the end of it? No, the most important thing is creed. Let's hold off. We're going to take a break. And we're going to talk about the most important thing as we wrap it up here on the dean, she'll be right back. So if you find yourself Your mind is going down, check yourself.
There is nothing to be worship except Allah alone. You got some CDs and music in the car, bobbing your head the 50 cents or?
No, it's common sense. Don't do things that can hurt people.
Lady Gaga, googoo and all that other nonsense.
And bullying is haraam backbiting, slandering. And sets up systems as smoking.
Stay to 18 inch biceps. We'll see what happens to Eddie on the deen show.
And we hold it down in the show early. Make sure you're tuning back here on the D show with Dr. Lawrence Brown. And everything is adding up that it seems like the Muslims, those who have consciously submitted to the One God because that's what a Muslim is. Hmm. Seems like we're following Jesus peace be upon him more than many of the common day ordinary people today. Look, we've talked about appearance. We've talked about manners. We've talked about religious practices, we've talked about practices of worship, but the most important thing, and the message that all prophets really came to bear was the message of creed. In other words, you know the truth of God?
Yeah. Okay. And so we've talked about these four things. The most important thing is that Jesus Christ bore the message saying, No, Israel, the Lord your God, the Lord is one. And are you saying 111? Yeah, no, he's, look, you didn't do this, this or you didn't do this, that you didn't do any of this? No, making it look it up and Mark 1229, Matthew 2237, and Luke 1027. Okay, three top three times he bears the message that God is one. This relates back to the first commandment as you find in Exodus 23. So, the bottom line is that Jesus Christ came, saying what saying he was not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, lost sheep. What does this mean? This means that they have
gone astray from their message, okay. And what is the message that he is reminding them of? He is reminding them of their law. He is reminding them of tau heed the oneness of God, pure monotheism, pure monotheism. Now, where are you missing? Where does Jesus Christ ever speak about the Trinity in the Bible? Did he ever utter this word? The Trinity is nowhere to be found in the Bible. And the biblical passages that people hold up to support the Bible cannot be used to support the excuse me. The biblical passages that
The trinitarians holdups to support the Trinity
are actually cannot cannot be used to support the Trinity. For example, the most common one is the first epistle of john five, chapter five, verses seven through eight. Okay? Those were written into the margins of Scripture by a scribe. Those were not in the original scripture. All right, most most valid Bibles of this day, have have removed that from from the translation because it's recognized as invalid. And in the same way, other passages which some claim to support the Trinity can be refuted, very, very simply not nothing eloquent. But this is kind of you know, we've jumped away from the subject the point, the point is that whether you're talking about appearance, manners,
religious practices, practices of worship, or the the creed that Jesus Christ taught, he taught, God is one he taught that he was the son of man, Jesus Christ, called himself the Son of Man at a times not the Son of God, no, no. And this comes down to the very, very critical separation, and that is the separation between the teachings of Jesus Christ, and the teachings of Paul. And the reason why this is critical, is because Christianity is founded more upon the teachings of Paul than upon the teachings. We're gonna have to do that in part two, we have a couple more minutes left. Now it sounds like to me and we know that all the prophets of God they taught Islam Islam is that call to
acquire peace by submitting your will to the owner piece to one God, and a Muslim is one who does Islam? Was Jesus, a Muslim? All of the prophets were Muslims. I mean, you said all of them, that includes DEET so you're saying Jesus bold statement, Dr. Brown, you have to understand what Muslim means Muslim means a person of Islam. Islam means a person who submits their will to Allah. Okay, so yes, Islam might have had the name Islam, from the time of Muhammad peace be upon him. But all people of all time who submitted themselves to the will of God, were Muslims. Are you what was Abraham a human being? Yes, but when did this word human being come into existence? It wasn't during
his lifetime. Nice. All right. I see. Okay, like that was Moses, Noah, General human being with a human being that word didn't exist during their lifetime. I like that. Okay, like the word came into existence later, but it applies backwards as well. Same thing with the word Islam, Islam as a general, I mean, it's a description of those who submitted their wills, to Allah. And even though that word may have, you know, come into existence with the revelation of the Holy Quran and the prophethood of Muhammad peace be upon him, it applies to those before him as well who fulfilled the qualification. One last point, we're out of time. One last point, you said earlier, he was a Jew.
Now we're saying he's a Muslim. How do you put the two together? You know, we both at the same time. Yeah, absolutely. He was an Orthodox Jew in the sense that he was not bringing any new law. Yeah, he was he was restoring the law of Moses. Okay. So I mean, he was in the lineage of David, right. And so he fulfilled the qualifications of being considered a Jew. So that could be like a national nationality. So you could be a Jew who's a Muslim? I said, you could be a Bosnian Muslim, Serbian, Muslim. Exactly. I mean,
Muslim, Russia, China, Russia, Muslim, South American, Jewish, Muslim, whatever. Yeah. Okay, you know, and it doesn't matter what your ethnicity is. Remember, I mean, remember, being a Jew was basically an ethnicity. It was I sang at that time. Hebrew, you know, and, and so you were ethnically a Hebrew. But you could still be, I mean, you could be a communist or socialist, a Democrat or whatever. But when it comes to religion, they were all all of the profits were Muslim. We're going to take a break, and we're going to have to come back continue this topic. It's a vast topic. And we're going to talk about the comparison which you said the split between the teachings
of Jesus peace be upon him and Paul, in our next episode. Sounds good. Can you do this? God want to thank you? Sure. I'll see you in a few. Salaam Alaikum. And thank you for tuning in to another episode of the deen show. We've come to a close but you got to see all the evidence adds up that Jesus peace be upon him who is beloved to our hearts, he was a Muslim. He submitted him self entirety not to himself, but he submitted himself to the one God, the Creator of the heavens and earth and he was a messenger of God. And we follow the teachings of all the messengers including the last and final message sent to mankind the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him tune in again, we're
we're going to cover the teachings of Jesus and the teachings of Paul. We're gonna continue on with Dr. Lawrence Brown. Next time here on the show will be and we'll see you then peace.
I am not afraid to say
I am not afraid.
I'm not afraid.
I'm not afraid.
I'm not afraid.
So if you find yourself Your mind is going down, check yourself.
There is nothing to be worship except Allah alone. You got some CDs and music in the car, bobbing your head to 50 cents or? No, it's common sense. Don't do things that can hurt people.
Lady Gaga, Google and all that other nonsense.
Bullying is head on backbiting, slandering, and sets up systems at smoking.
Pay to 18 inch biceps. We'll see what happens to Eddie on the deen show.
And we hold it down on his show early. Make sure you're tuning
this will Alhamdulillah Salaam Alaikum. Peace be with you. I'm your host, you're watching the deen show. And in the de show studio, we have Dr. Lawrence Brown, who you can visit at the deen show.com you can hear his soul story, read a little bit about him. And we're going to come back and continue talking about
who's following Jesus more, or the Muslims or the Christians. And you need to know that
we really want the best for all of humanity. Islam says love all mankind. And that's why we want to talk about these topics. And we want to put the evidence on the table and we want you to have an open heart and open mind and decide for yourself. Decide for yourself what makes the most sense. And we come back we're going to make sense of it all with Dr. Lawrence Bob Brown. Here on the deen show, God willing sit tight is
one of the beautiful things about our religion of Islam is the emphasis on direct ritual and prayer to God directly. There is no intermediary, the lights will go on after the party and the party will end. It's very simple and very clear. There are no superstitious rituals, no strange incantations his Time's running out, we might not make it till tomorrow. And this is something that we need to think about.
This is an interesting thing that the, you know, we think when we read the Bible that we're we're obviously reading the words that Matthew wrote or that Paul wrote.
But the reality is, we don't have the originals of Matthew or Paul's letters, or of any other book of the New Testament or the Old Testament, what we have are copies of these books that were made later, in many cases, many most cases many centuries later. So we the New Testament was originally written in Greek and at present, we have something like 5500 manuscripts in Greek of the New Testament, which is a lot for an ancient book, it's far more than any other ancient book. The problem is most of these copies are hundreds and hundreds of years after the originals. And all of them have differences in them. So that the scribes who were copying these manuscripts change the
text that they were copying. Sometimes by accident, I mean, sometimes they just made mistakes, they were sleepy or incompetent, or whatever. But sometimes it looks like scribes actually thought the text should say something other than it did and then they so they would change the text. So I'll make one piece below a few are concerned. Dr. Rebecca, thank you very much for joining us, Dr. Brown.
Now, time is short and it's of the essence people go to the deen show.com read a little bit about you. You have a doctor's and Divinity have a PhD in religious studies. Your
eye doctor by profession. Correct? ophthalmologists? Yep. I have it. Yeah. Now you weren't a general close to being a colonel, former US major. Now what did you say? who are who are
the only general I was ever was? I was a pain in the behind. But yeah, the general pain in the behind?
No, I was a major. Yeah. So okay, so great. So you are someone who's qualified to talk about this topic. And your previous shows that we done? You talked about that you are an atheist, actually, you were trying very hard to be a Christian. And you ended up becoming a Muslim, the same way of life that Jesus peace be upon unfollowed. And we covered this in our last show, and we want to make sense of it all. That's how I opened up the topic. We want to make sense of it all. There's a lot of confusion out there. And you said there was a split in the last show. People again go to to watch that show we did. You said there was a split between the true teachings of Jesus peace be upon him.
And now the teachings of Paul right. Well, it's, it's more in a practical sense. It's a division between the teachings of Jesus Christ and the teacher.
of the church at this point. But what it comes down to is the teachings of Jesus versus the teachings of Paul, because the foundation of Christianity at this point is more upon the teachings of Paul than upon the teachings of Jesus. Now, a lot of Christians will not like hearing this, a lot of a lot of people out there a lot of Christians hearing that Christianity is founded more upon the teachings of Paul, that upon the teachings of Jesus will object to that. But the fact of the matter is that that is so well recognized. Now, even even among Christian scholars, that, that the Christians themselves, you know, many Christians themselves are, are speaking of this, of this very
fact. Is there a Bible that has not only the red letters, the black letters, the gray letters, and now you can see like what the words allegedly are, that are closest to being? Possibly the words of Jesus, not at all said by Jesus might have been said by john, right, right. Well, I think what you're talking about is the Jesus seminar, the Jesus, the Jesus seminar has published a book called The five Gospels. And it's basically the four well known gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and john Jesus seminar, whose was this well, the Jesus seminar is a body of,
of Christian fellows who came together to analyze the Bible, and and by analyzing the Bible, agree upon the authenticity of Jesus's sayings within the Bible, or the scholars, they got together, their priests, ministers, pastors, their, their religious scholars of a variety of denomination, how many of them got together a 200? Or 200? Yeah, over, you know,
as memory serves over time, they have a list of 200 fellows, and what what did they conclude? Well, basically, in publishing the,
the the five gospels, they they published,
they published the, you know, the four well known gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and john, and then the Gospel of Thomas. And the, the point behind publishing it was to show which words attributed to Jesus in the Bible, were most likely actually said by him and which words were not. So they they graded them. For example, if they felt that the words if they agreed that the words were most likely stated by Jesus Christ, then it was in red. If it was probable that he stated the words, then there are in pink, if it is most likely that he did not say those words, then it is in gray. And if if they felt that he definitely did not say those words, then it was in black. Now you would have to
look at their, you'd have to look at their scheme for analyzing to get the exact classifications might be a little bit, you know, in a shade of gray, often their classifications but, but that's basically what it came down to. And when you look through that book, what I can tell you is that you'll just find an awful lot of black and gray, and very, you know very little of it from what you would expect is actually in red. So this, this is just to support the fact that, as most Christians know, there is tremendous controversy over what Jesus Christ actually said actually did. And this is why you find so many books saying, who was the historical Jesus? Who was he really, what did he
really say? What did he really do? People might say, hold on, hold on. We have Matthew, Mark, Luke, and john. And these were his companions, and they're telling us what he said they had first hand accounts. Okay, well, first, first of all, we have to remember that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and john, were not necessarily written by his earthly disciples. Okay. All four of these gospels are anonymous. You're kidding me? No, you know, as Muslims, we have to tell the truth. No, it's really not you cannot bend the truth. You can't play with the truth. You got to speak the truth. So what you're saying is a fact or is this according to Dr. Lawrence brown opinion? No, no, this is this is
well known going to go to any seminary school. Go to any true Christian scholar read Graham Stanton read Bart Ehrman. All of this is referenced in my books. You can find the exact quotations but the bottom line is that all four of the gospels are anonymous documents, they are not signed, they are within the framework of the actual manuscript they are not attributed to any to any of the disciples. So the the general feeling among the Scholastic community of this time is that none of the four gospels can be attributed to
One of Jesus Christ's earthly disciples. So how do we come back we come back now, as Muslims and people we know by watching the show that basically a Muslim is one who submits to the will of God. And we say Jesus was a Muslim, we we say that Jesus never taught, as you said in the last show that he never taught taught the Trinity. He never heard the word Trinity, that he never said that he was going to come to die for the sins of the world. But where are we getting this from? Do we see this in any of the red letters that we have? Well, I mean, these are subjects that, you know, basically, they really deserve to be tackled. Yeah. But each one is a subject unto itself, but doesn't as come
because we put now Jesus peace be upon him. And most people, you know, to support this, they'll go to Paul,
the writings of Paul, won't they? Well, yeah. And and this is kind of this is kind of the point we started out talking about. On the last episode, we talked about the fact that the Muslims emulate the appearance of Jesus Christ, closer than the Christians were wearing a beard wearing modest clothing as Jesus Christ did. The Muslim women wear a headscarf add it as did marry the mother of Jesus, okay, we, the practicing Muslims, the practicing Muslims, they conduct themselves with humility, with modesty, and they follow the tenets of religious practice that Jesus Christ talk of during the greeting of peace. Okay. Other religious practices as we spoke about circumcision,
avoiding pork, avoiding, usually avoiding avoiding contact with the opposite sex. These were all practices of Jesus Christ, that that Muslims follow better than the example of the Christians when you come into the acts of actual worship, making abolition before prayer, praying and prostration fasting, you know, a month during the year in Ramadan, making pilgrimage for religious purposes. These were all practices of Jesus, which we find better exemplified among the Muslims than among the Christians, when it comes to creed and find Jesus Christ teaching three places in the Bible that God is one and we don't find him teaching the Trinity anywhere. Now, that's a big issue, and we can come
back to that. Let's come back to that at a break. Is that okay? That's fine. We're gonna take a break. We'll be right back with more. We're here with Lawrence brown on the dean show.
I'm not afraid.
I'm not afraid.
I'm not afraid.
Some places it looks like it's a manipulation of the text where, where the author wants to change where the scribe wants to change what the author said. I mean, in many cases, it may be that the scribe thought, This is what the author really meant. And so he changed it. But But sometimes the text gets changed to say, just the opposite of what it originally said. And so that's, that can that can be a little bit troubling. Yeah, back here on the deen show with Dr. Lawrence Brown. And I want to go back to Jesus. And, Paul, how does this get intertwined? Now? How do we get from Jesus was Paul so apostle? Was he another messenger? Who was Paul? Okay, well, this, this is kind of where I
was leading to. Yeah, one we just before the break, we were looking at the first episode of the series, we're looking at how the teachings and the example of Jesus Christ, we find them in many, in many cases better exemplified among the Muslims than among the Christians. And what we're what we're talking about is how both Christians and Muslims say that there are followers of Jesus Christ, who is really doing it. Now, when you look at the teachings of Jesus Christ, and you look at the teachings of Paul, one thing that really stands out is that they're almost virtual opposites. Opposite, it's now you would expect them to be the same. It's like the antithesis of each other's
teachings, you would expect them to be the same. And the church makes them sound like they're the same, but in fact, they're basically opposites. I'll give you an example. I mean, Jesus Christ taught Old Testament law. Yeah. All right. He He came bearing the law of Moses not trying to change it. When he said, you know, he's he said, he expressly stated that he did not come to destroy the law and the prophets I did not come but to fulfill. And he, he, you know, he came as what Christians recognize him to have been Rabbi Jesus, right. So being Rabbi Jesus, what does it mean to be a rabbi? I mean, obviously, you're following Old Testament law. So Jesus Christ bore the Old Testament
to, you know, to the people, Paul negated it. You know, Paul basically came up with concept of justification by faith. So, on one hand you had Jesus Christ holding the people accountable to the law. On the other hand, you had Paul saying, no more. Yeah. Can't canceling it.
In the same way, Jesus Christ stated that he was an ethnic prophet. He stated do not he say that? You know, he did not did not come but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Yes. negating everybody else. Yeah, I did not come but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Paul said, he's a he's a universal prophet for everybody. Okay, now you can't have it both ways. Jesus Christ said one thing, Paul said another and these two things cannot. If they are mutually exclusive, you cannot you cannot blend them. Jesus Christ taught prayer to God.
I mean, the Lord's Prayer, you know, when you pray, pray in this way. Right? And he taught prayer to God, our Father who art in heaven. He didn't say to the people pray to me, Jesus Christ taught prayer to God, Paul taught prayer to Jesus.
Jesus Christ taught Divine unity. He taught that, you know, the Lord our God, the God, the Lord argued,
he taught the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Okay. But he's the Pauline theologians who 300 years later derived the concept of the Trinity. So all I'm saying, All I'm saying is that if you look at the Bible, and see how the teachings of Paul contradict the teachings of Jesus, you basically are drawn to consider the fact that you need to decide which one you're going to follow. When you're going to follow Jesus Christ. Yeah, a recognized prophet. Okay, where are you going to find Paul, a man who never even met Jesus Christ was not one of his earthly disciples, claimed to have a conversion through a mystical experience, and then went on to teach things very contrary to what
Jesus Christ taught. So he wasn't an apostle. He wasn't a prophet, he wasn't someone chosen by Jesus or God. Well speak on their behalf. Well, what is an apostle? I mean, people call him an apostle, and they elevate him. They elevate his status, according to how they recognize him. But he was not he was not a disciple. He was not.
You know, he was not an associate of Jesus Christ. No, not at all. Okay? And did the brother of Jesus James, who's mentioned the Bible, and many of the other companions, they, if you read the Bible, take him to task for a lot of the things that he was teaching. Oh, definitely. And the conflict between the conflict between the teachings of Paul and the teachings of Jesus, basically, were the foundation of the conflict between Paul and the true disciples. For example, if you read if you read James, right, what is it all about? It's all about, I shouldn't say all about but you know, pretty much about this conflict. I mean, the, you know, the chapter, Faith without works is dead, is
a chapter in which James is is telling, Paul, that
the people have assembled and they are going to pass judgment upon him. And so he's telling him repent, you know, repent from the path that you are taking, the negating the Old Testament law and, and, and changing the concept of the reality of Jesus Christ. James is telling Jesus, I mean, Paul, you have to remember Paul put forward the concept of justification by faith. Yeah, that you are justified in all things by faith and not by not by the law. Okay, you're not you're not held to the difficulties of the Old Testament law. This in their time was punishable by death. Yes. This was blasphemy. Okay. And so James was James was, as you said, taking him to task. In in the same way you
see conflict with Barnabas, you see Khan conflict with Peter, you know, the alleged rock upon which the church would be built, and so on. So you find a find one disciple, I mean, just find one disciple who agreed with Paul, who wrapped his arm around him and said, Yeah, buddy, you and me, we're in this together, don't it didn't happen. So if you look at if you look at the Bible, and now you look at it with an open heart, open mind and not what you know, your pastor or preacher is telling you, and you look at what God is saying, what Jesus is saying, what James his brother is saying, you'll find them in unity. But when you look at what Paul is saying, you see the exact
opposite the antithesis of
Basically, basically, you find Jesus keeping to a particular teaching, you find James and the disciples exemplifying that are following that. And you find Paul, on the opposite side, somewhere over here, way off, right left, and and he's out of the ballpark. No, this is this is why, you know, this is this is why many scholars have basically categorized
Christianity into the category of those who are following the teachings of Jesus, those who are basically Pauline Christian in the modern sense of Pauline Christians, which meaning means following the teachings of Paul, it seems like there has to be another messenger to come, it seems like there's some confusion, and there has to be someone else coming to make things right. Was there any talk of another prophet? In the Old Testament, the New Testament, it talks about another prophet who's going to set things straight. This is this actually, okay? This might sound sound like a complex issue, but it actually is very straightforward. The Old Testament speaks of three prophets
to follow. Don't ask any Jewish rabbi anywhere in the world, how many prophets they are expecting to follow, and they will say three. Now there's evidence for this in the New Testament, go to your New Testament, open it up, you'll find that when john the baptist was preaching, the Jews sent their scholars to ask him who he was, and they say they are custom, basically. And they asked him, they say, Are you a larger? He says, No, are you the Christ? He says, No. Are you that Prophet? He says, No, How many fingers is that? Elijah, Christ, that Prophet? three fingers, three, okay. And when he denies it, then they actually, they restate it, they say, if you are not a ledger, if you are not
the Christ, if you are not that Prophet, who are you? Okay, so it was clearly clearly acknowledging the fact that they were expecting three prophets. Now, later on, we find Jesus Christ identifying john the baptist as Elijah. Another passage is in conflict with this, but we take it upon faith that out of these three prophets, john the baptist was one, Jesus Christ was the second and that leaves the third who is unaccounted for Holy Ghost.
Do they argue this Holy Ghost? No, that has nothing to do nothing to do with this. You can use this as an argument. We're not talking about the Trinity here. We're talking about the expected profits to follow in the in the continuity of the chain of Revelation. Okay, profit. This is someone that's coming. Yeah. This is a human entity. Okay. Okay. So, as I said, out of the three john the baptist was number one, Jesus Christ was the second one and this leaves one additional profit. This is why Christianity is identified as a messianic religion, because they are still waiting for the final prophet to complete the predictions of their own scripture. Can we tell them the final profit the
last and final profit that's sent to mankind we come back from the break.
Fine, we'll be right back with Dr. Brown.
Outside, everything looks good. You see the $100,000 car you see a lot of diamonds you see a lot of females and they think that this is you know, this is a lie. This is this is no paradise right here our
job to go into someone's heart and change their heart. Your job is to tell people what the truth is. And the reality of it is while we're sitting here, while I'm sitting here, constantly paying for the disease, to kill was free.
As I studied more and more using my intelligence as an EV angelical, but also praying about it, I became convinced that the New Testament gospels were not written by eyewitnesses, or by people who new eye witnesses. The first point to make is the rather obvious one that the Gospels don't claim to be written by eyewitnesses, they are all anonymous. The titles in your gospels, the Gospels, according to Matthew and so forth, were added by later editors, they were not put there by the original authors back here on the deen show and everything God Willing it. It's making sense. If you have an open heart open mind is making sense to you talking about we left off the three to come and
tour already there. john the baptist is yahia in Arabic, you're here and then Jesus Christ.
That's the second Yeah, Jews refuse to accept them as a prophet. We accept that he was one of the mightiest messengers of God. No Muslim is a Muslim laughs He believes in Jesus. There's one last prophet peace be upon him and his his teachings. Everything's got to be so straight, no more confusion. Can you talk to us? Who is this mighty messenger? Well, I know of course you want me to say Muhammad sallallahu alayhi salam and that's that's of course my answer. That's of course your answer. The the bottom line though, is that each person
To examine the life of Muhammad peace be upon him examine the revelation that he brought. And based upon that examination, along with prayers to God to guide you, each person has to come to their own conclusion like that. Like, we're not going to push it on nobody. No, we're not pushy. I mean, it's easy to stand up in front of a camera and say the final prophet was
not that way. Okay, yeah. I mean, it's not that way. We We are, we are inviting people to examine our beliefs. We are inviting people to to examine the evidence for themselves, and to come to their own conclusions. Yeah. So we're gonna leave it up to the people now. Yeah. Because it's confusion out there. And you know, things aren't making sense. Look, it's not complete confusion. I mentioned before the break that the Old Testament spoke of three profits to follow okay. Excluding I mean, I mean, taking away john the baptist of Jesus Christ that leaves one you would expect in the New Testament to find reference to that one, you would expect to find Jesus Christ speaking of that one,
in In fact, he does. There is a famous passages passage in which Jesus Christ mentions the fact that it is good that he will go because if he does not go he cannot send what is written in the foundational manuscript as allosterically toasts okay? allosterically does LS means another apparently tails means comforter advocate, like a legal legal advocate helper.
What is parently toasts? It doesn't matter. Why? Because elsewhere in the Bible and the first epistle of john to one, Jesus Christ is identified as our Cletus as a parakeet. Okay. So now we know what apparently it is, whatever apparently it is, Jesus Christ was one. And now he is saying that after he goes, he will send allosterically does another perfectly. The key word here is another. All right. In the coin a Greek there were two words for another one is aloes, one is heteros harrowsmith. Another way there are two LS meant another way there are many allos para Cletus meant another of whatever Jesus Christ was because he was americlean also. So another of many, like what
Jesus Christ was, doesn't that sound more like the final prophet and the completion of the chain of revelation of many prophets?
So actually, even in the New Testament, you find evidence of the final foretold prophet as Muslims, we believe that to be Muhammad, peace be upon him. And all those who were upon a religious investigation simply need to examine the evidences for themselves. Just one last point, just please tell me if someone just to move this out of their mind. Someone says again, that's the Holy Ghost. What do you guys say?
There's I'm sorry, but there is nobody who believes that that passage, nobody among scholars, who believes that that passage refers to the Holy Ghost, because this is not speaking of the Trinity. Okay, the passages that they claim to speak of the Trinity are well known wasn't the Holy Ghost there at that time, though, the Holy Ghost was pre existent pre. Okay. I mean, it was it was referenced before, during, after the mission of Jesus Christ. So, so it, but but this is, I mean, so I'm just I've heard people say this, that when you mentioned this, some people say, Okay, this was that the Holy Ghost that's going to come and be inside of you. And you got to get full of it. To
understand it. Yeah, but these I'm sorry, but these are, you know, I'm sorry to put it on these terms. But these are the laity. These are the people who are just they're creating an explanation for it. Okay, these are not the scholars, I get a scholar on your show Who says that? I mean, I don't think you'll find a valid, valid Christian scholar anywhere in the world, who will claim that these passages refer to the Holy Ghost, because because these passages, you know, explicitly refer to,
to predicted profits. I'm in the middle of reading some of your books, God misguided, I love them. Tell us a little bit about your books that you got and where people get a hold of you Dr. Brown. Okay. Well, there are two websites one is eight scroll.com just spell it as it sounds, eight Ei gh th scroll SCR o l l.com. The second website is level truth.com.
The series of books that I have written include an action adventure novel called the eighth scroll, then scholastic religious books which contain everything that we've been talking about today on a great deal more. The first one is misguided. The second one is guarded. And if you go to the website, level truth calm, you will find also articles
My conversion story
and and I have other books that are soon to be published. Thank you very much my God Almighty, Allah reward you for being with us. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. Thank you. And thank you for tuning in to another episode of the deen show. Thank you, thank you so much. And we never want to hurt anyone's feelings. We are sincerely trying to deliver to what we feel is the truth is very simple as rational, logical. All you have to have is an open heart and open mind. And we talked about the teachings of Jesus peace be upon them and then we're following those teachings. And we talked about
Islam which simply means to acquire peace by submitting yourself entirely to the owner peace to one guy and that is what all the messengers of God were on and that's what we're on. So if you want to learn more, continue to tune into the deen show. You can even call the one 800 number on the screen to get a free copy of the Quran and we'll see you next time God Willing inshallah until then peace be unto you.
He created the universe.
To Him alone the heavens.
He is the
He's the owner. He is messenger.
a great danger.
there is none greater