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Transgender Debates Muslim on Fgm!!

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Mohammed Hijab

Channel: Mohammed Hijab

Episode Notes

Episode Transcript

© No part of this transcript may be copied or referenced or transmitted in any way whatsoever. Transcripts are auto-generated and thus will be be inaccurate. We are working on a system to allow volunteers to edit transcripts in a controlled system.


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Is it a moral act? Or is an immoral act?

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Well, in the context of me putting myself in her shoes, she believes that that is fine for her. I'm just saying, as a society, should our society accept that as a moral action, or as an immoral action?

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Should it be illegal or should it be illegal? Well, in the context of what you're giving me, she say she, you're giving me the protocol that

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I'm saying willing, because you said in the beginning, I'm not saying that anyone, I'm just asking you, a woman in Ethiopia willingly from her own volition, and her own autonomous decision making capability in her cold decides because of cultural reasons, so that she wants to move the entire glitters. I am saying from a Muslim perspective, That's not right. Yeah. Now I'm saying why is not right. Because actually, the prophet said, That's not right. He told us. Yeah, okay. Oh, you're having Harry's that's you. I'm asking do you agree with me? Or do you disagree with me? I'm, I'm going to, I can't give a simple answer. Because what you're trying to do is you're trying to make me

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a Muslim to give you know, I don't know what I'm saying is that from your point of view, you're saying it's wrong. But from her point of view, because of that's her culture, and because that's the way her culture wants to be in because she wants to fit into our culture. So it's okay for you to fit. I'm not saying it's okay. For me. I'm saying from your point of view, it's not okay. From her point of view, it is okay. From my point of view, is a very difficult decision for me to make, because obviously, I cannot understand

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the sociological statistics that detail FGM and MGM.

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I believe that, because I've changed it from one thing to another, yes, if a woman is taking

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over pause, which she says she doesn't, just to clear it. Okay, well, that works out. It's just the clitoral, that means that she's just taking away the beat that has sensation. So maybe, for her, that means that she doesn't want to be sexual. Whereas for you maybe, even though from a Muslim point of view, maybe you do like to have sex with your wife. But on the other hand, maybe other people don't want to have sex. So this is a very difficult thing as well. Okay? Because you're taking away the cultural means that you're taking away the sensation or being able to have an orgasm. So maybe if she doesn't want to have that, and her culture doesn't want to do that. And if

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he doesn't, so FGM is okay, in that context. I'm not saying it's okay. But I'm using your arguments of

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a Muslim trying to impress your view on something.

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I'm just saying, because this is a question of, oh, why are you posing the question to me and putting me I mean, I'm trying to be put into a box. Like, because I've done this myself, I'm not in that cultural round. Okay.

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The the statistics that details, the amount of times FGM is done in a particular place, or MGM, they don't detail, basically a man changing it to woman a woman changing trauma. However, if you look at the definition, according to the World Health Organization, the NHS, it doesn't stipulate in the definition of the World Health Organization, that the person has to be willing or not willing. In other words, if a woman decides to do a clinic project to me, and take her whole vagina away, then that becomes Yes, that become or even the labia and this other. Even if you choose a piercing that according to the World Health Organization, that becomes FGM. Now my question is because as Muslims,

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we always ask these questions. I'm, it's my time today, to be honest with you. And in this in this, in this blog, I'm going to tell you to ask the questions. Because if I'm saying to you right now, why are not, for example, people like yourself, counted in the statistics, because what you've effectively done is you've taken away you've done MGM, you've taken away the gentili of the man, you've done it willingly, I'm not taking that away from you, you have done it willingly, but you've taken it away, and you've moved on to something else. But what I'm saying is, from a sociological perspective, it's only fair if we include the Western world who decides to do that as part of a

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place or a hub or hemisphere, which actually practices MGM and FGM. Let me try to understand your thing, because we need to go slowly here because maybe your education or your question, Jocelyn, I need to understand. So for me, when I transitioned, yes, basically, I've now got a birth certificate and everything else which has changed from being who I was before, to who I am now. So the question your I just want to understand your question as regards although I've been changed from a male to a female, and in the statistics in law, I am now niomi. I'm now female. So in the context of this

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conference, I have now gone from this statistic or whatever you're saying the world organization have been, who I was before, who was a race to whatever, to now be niomi, who is more comfortable in my skin? I'm challenging that. And to this moment, I'm willing to challenge and to add on to another bit to make it more personal to me your question, I want to

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challenge your experience.

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And the argument because what I'm saying here is, just because you asked me a question, let me see if you don't.

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I'm also just gonna say that for mine because you may want to pick this up as well. And I'm quite happy for you to do so. Yeah, for my own personal point of view because I was raised. I've had what's known as a lazy lazy opacity, there's two different sex changes of vagina plasti and La Via plastic. vaginoplasty just basically means that if somebody has a vagina plastic means that when they go from mouth to female in other words have a vagina, it means a man can do his business wet why decided was because I was raped. And because I had lots of difficulties with being a raped homosexual and ending up doing addiction to cover up my pain of rape. I chose labiaplasty, which

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means I don't want a man's whatever, in my thing. Okay. So from your point of view, the only reason I'm saying all of that is because you may have an issue with the fact that if you are having

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having issues with about people taking away their clitoral, or whatever.

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Now basically, I've got the cleartrust Bye, have a feeling because when you change you may not have, if you don't mind, I don't want to take away anything from your personal experience. I'm not here to judge you, on your personal experience, you have absolute autonomy over your own experiences. I'm not here to challenge you on that. I'm here talking about something sociological something, society jonasson because basically, we have to understand that when we do sociology, or when the public are told something, okay, when the British public or the western public are told, for example, look, Muslims are forcing x person white person is that person to do FGM. And what is FGM they define it

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as basically the removal of the critic literature or even less than that. But at the same time, they allow, for example, a kind of cluttered activity to happen under the guise of another culture, which is Western liberalism. I personally believe, even if you do say, okay, it's not being done, willingly or unwillingly, because as we've covered already FGM I would say it should be illegal, what is done willingly or unwillingly, if the woman comes forward, I'm saying to you, it should be a fair standard, you should have in the sociological statistics, I wonder where the West would rank, I wonder where the West would rank if you put all of the sex changes that are be done by men to women

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who have two men on the sociological ladder, because if you do, I promise you, the West will not be on the bottom. And Ethiopia will not be necessarily always on the top, it might be the case that the West has more FGM and MGM places than it wants to acknowledge. But I believe that based on that circle, based on the way that the method of basically allowing it for one culture and not allowing it for another culture, that is an unfair sociological comparison, what we need to what I need to clarify here, because you may have more understanding of this than me, is you're talking about in the Muslim culture, about FGM. And you're also talking about in another cultural paradise, another

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type of FGM. So is it more popular in your culture, or any other culture you're talking about? Because I haven't looked into any of this. I've just had my own gender journey. And I haven't gone to Africa, East Africa, and I mentioned Ethiopian.

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Ethiopian, Ethiopian Muslim Somali Muslims, lots of Egyptian

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to them, what do you have FGM?

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If you're a Muslim, you can do so I'm saying Muslims do it.

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against your God. Yeah, so the Prophet told us Don't do it. Don't take away from it too much like that he did actually fold up because he won't shoot it. But like the questions, let me speak for a little while, because

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it's like the Muslims or the Christians, basically, within that, within that context, the Muslims and the Christians wouldn't be opposed because God wants everybody to be either male or female. And even though we have people who have a penis and

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to be honest with you, let me let me actually tell you something you didn't know that.

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My understanding of the Bible is that God created man and female and God wants you to be a nice dude, let me let me know we live in a world where white people are not in a garden, everybody to get used to it, to be honest with you right now, I'm not talking about that. That's not my point. My point is really a sociological case. All I'm saying is that if you're gonna count as part of the sociological statistics, so can you just

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I say logical because I need to understand your logical meaning. Social, as in social, who we are as people

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Should they matter about who people are? Why can't we just live together? No, no, no, no.

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Please. That's something that Okay, that's away from what I'm talking about. I'm just saying that I'm not sure if you've heard this, I'm not sure if you've been exposed to this. Muslims, because basically FGM this whole thing of where I'm defining FGM in a narrow way, how am I defining because it's actually defined broadly by a who, you know, according to who having a piercing, a piercing in your sorry, in your vagina, right? That is actually seen as FGM. Now, I wonder how many women in the West have piercings in the vagina, I promise you is going to be more than enough.

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I'm not just saying. The point I'm making is when when, for example, the West, the post colonial West with this white jacket on, and telling all the rest of the world and its nations what to do and be and really, all I'm saying is, okay, you want to put your white jacket on and tell us to be like yourself, let's see if you yourself are doing the right thing. Let's see if you yourself are sticking by the standard you're giving everyone else. So one of the things I have a problem with is that the West with a white jacket and telling everyone to do the white jacket represent the white skin. And really it is a white superior superiority movement. This Wild Wild West man telling Okay,

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look at these Africans, these barbaric Africans that you put them into a, you know, a National Geographic newspaper, because it was black people look at those Africa those Muslims are doing, they're doing FGM and mgn. Well, wait a minute. My point is how do you define FGM FGM is the removal of a horrible horrific literalist for cultural, political or religious reasons. If that is the wh o organization's definition, which has nothing to do with willingness or non willingness, then in that case, you have to add into your sociological statistics, the amount of people that are doing sex changes. Now, I'm not saying that look, I'm not saying that okay. A my argument today isn't Okay,

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they shouldn't do a sex change. If you're a liberal, and you're not, and you're not confined to any religious program, do what you want. I'm not telling you to do anything in particular, if you're a liberal, and you're not confined to any particular religious belief system, it doesn't matter what you do.

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As a Muslim, your argument is, it's fine for me to do whatever I want. Oh, God, no, no, no, no, hold on. I'm saying if you guys would be disgusted about what you do. Oh, no, it wasn't because what I said is, if you're a Muslim, you only Muslim is someone who submits their work to God. Yeah. Now, your thoughts. But I want you to be saying it's fine for me to say it's fine. So you know, once again, I don't say it's fine. I said, if you're not Muslim, and you're not convinced of Islam, you understand this? what I'm saying? If you're not convinced with Islam, and our religious Prophet did, there's no compulsion religion. So if someone like yourself, you're not convinced of Islam, right,

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now, you decided to do a secretary do everyone to do in the West? I haven't got my business what you do? Yeah. So I'm not saying that say you don't care for other people other than yourself. I'm not saying that. I'm here to actually convince people of Islam on one on one level, or another level if they don't accept that I can't force them to be Muslims, Jonathan, so from God, whether it be Christian or Muslim, yeah, teaches you to love people, regardless of whoever they are. And therefore we care for people. That's why we talk to people like you.

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People like me.

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Because I know Muslims are basically you said, What do you guys yeah, I know what we are. Or we are too far as well, other religions, performance, disbelievers. You call us cafes, whereas we

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have other religions. And my friends, Christian are all going to hell address your question. So now we're gonna move we're moving. We're segwaying away from that either point. The point I'm today, I want to get to you.

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The point I want to get to you today, the point I'm trying to actually make to you today is Look, there are certain standards that the West has made for the rest of the world is given to the rest of the world is telling Africans to live a certain way while you're trying to say can I shortcut? You? Yes, your Chinese say that the western people, ie this country, is telling everybody else how to live their life, whereas poor Muslims can't watch the western people. Is that what I'm trying to understand?

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Is that the level of your argument? No.

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No, that's not the level of my argument. My argument is as follows. If the West can tell the rest, what to do based on its culture, but the West

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is in control of everything. If you're saying the West is controlling, let God be the judge. At the end of days, we believe in anyways. Well, exactly. So what's your point? My point is this.

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If you're you're small enough to think that you're in pain in superior or whatever, and that everybody else is superior to you and poor Muslims because everybody else is wrong.

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On the day of judgment, God's will be the one who puts the superior into the minority and bring up the minority to be up to the heavenly standard, my friend, okay. I don't actually agree with you totally on that side, the ones who are the poorest in life will become the richest

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than those who are too big and they don't even give to the poor or be the ones that are your Christian. You so no. Okay, well, I agree with what

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just said I'm in sales right on that. No, I agree with you. I'm just making you think I'm not saying.

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I'm trying to understand why you're going with

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your

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exchange. I'm trying to work out. Where are you going as regards speaking to me, which is fine. I love the fact you're speaking to me because not many people have gotten the car I wanted to discuss with one. Another point I wanted to make to you is as follows. Yeah, but I personally, I'm trying to work out I've already said that anybody who has this done to them against their will, that is totally wrong.

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Or even with that, will, that therefore if they're religious, or if they're under a culture, they just because you're giving me the picture where I've changed? Give

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me the picture where I've changed my penis into a vagina, you're giving me a picture where somebody does it in another country, where they're changing what God has given to them saying that's wrong, what God has given to them, or what creation has given to them, whichever theory you come from, and change their vagina, and don't create it to a penis, but create it for some other scenario. And you're asking me what I think about that I personally find that a bit difficult that sound is check that somebody is taking their vagina as a female and turns it not into nothing, because of that culture.

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difficult, but if that's what they've done, because of that culture, then I have to submit or say that that is their will. And that is

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sure that I think you're right. And you're consistent here. Yeah, you're consistent. But the West is not like you. So the West Coast, the west side, opponents of the West, which are let's say sometimes, right? When sometimes they will say a one breath, that okay, a person like yourself, who's having sex change? That's absolutely fine is culturally acceptable. We'll just accept it. I'm not saying anything. That's the West. That's liberalism. It's the land of liberalism. Okay, you're saying I agree with Mike coming from? what you're gonna say? is, I think what you're gonna say, even though you're struggling to save against me,

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against you, okay, let me tell you something.

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There were people who had their penises basically.

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And they lived aside the Muhammad Salah Prophet Muhammad did not treat them unkindly, sometimes he would take care of them. So the point is, really it's not like what you're making out to be honest Muslims, we're not here to go, Oh, let me find this homosexual. Let me find this transgender. Let me find this girl and find let me let me attack them. No, I will.

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Not you, I haven't attacked you on your basic your experiences, I haven't attacked your your choice. Even. I haven't told you anything about what you've done, you put it up in a defensive mode. I'm talking to you about a very specific sociological reality. I'm just saying. On the one hand, the West defines or the World Health Organization particularly, which is one of the most major institutions of the West as not being rebuked to review by anyone. It defines FGM and MGM as removal of genitalia. Okay, even partially or wholly. Having said that allows it doesn't say anywhere in the definition of who

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would otherwise that has to be willingly or unwillingly. If a woman in Ethiopia willingly does FGM FGM herself, she'll be counted as one of those people on this sociological statistics. I'm saying, if you want to count her, if she willingly does it, why don't we count someone like yourself? who willingly does as well is absolutely the same. Because if you're taking away your genitalia, then you're fulfilling exactly the textbook definition of organization. Now, if you

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change the definition, or reformat or ask them to reformat, you can put as part of the clause that should be it only if you thought unwillingly, but that's not what w. h o, or the NHS or any of the major institutions have said, they haven't put as part of the clause that has got to be willing or unwilling, they haven't made that distinction. If someone if a woman now from Ethiopia, goes out, and she decides for her own cultural reason, I'm not saying it's a religious reason, because it's nothing in any religion, I don't think that basically condones this, she decides to get rid of all of her cultures, the whole of our culture is unhealthy as well. Yeah, and that's another thing. If

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she decides to do that, she would be counted by the sociological, for by by sociologists, as someone who has performed FGM, someone now goes to the Western world decides to sex change sides to change from man to woman, woman to man, they are not counted. Is that fair?

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Right. So we need to cover slight ground again, the purpose of the example you're giving, which is unlike mine, because I've chosen to go from one to the other, you're giving me a good example of a woman who just takes away her power. And I need to still try to understand the purpose in her culture of her doing this. So you're saying to me, she's doing it because she doesn't want to Well, she wants to take away hopefully for us, which basically means to me, she doesn't want sexual functioning.

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Or whoever like she, she decides for whatever is given about how does she do that herself. Just chop

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As your condition just like the way you did, she got she decides, for whatever reason she wants to get rid of the pirate ship. Yes, I accept as a morally acceptable thing or Jew rejected. So when you talk to me and you say she's doing that, can you please say that she's gone to a clinic because the way you the way you talk, the way you talk is like she's doing it herself.

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Someone else was there, let's say they trend, they decide to get rid of a Pinterest. So in these countries, I have gender clinics

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throughout the country, even in this country, even in

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London is one of the only ones and people for gender.

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What you're talking about some kind of what you call it, like when you make up when you change the the operators of basically to make it look like something else. We're talking about literally just chopping something taking cutting something away, which can sometimes lead to her husband, for example, when she does nice, how to make the hospital. Okay, I'm not here to defend this position. I'm just saying that this happened, let's say in the context of someone who doesn't safely as well, a woman goes to a gender clinic, but she wants to get rid of her crutches safely. Yeah. Is that something which is counted as FGM? If so, why isn't also transcended which pull operations? Why are

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they not countable? If they both fulfill the same criteria? Who Well,

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why the World Health Organization, as you call it, which we deal with it with health statistics, which I am aware of, I don't know a lot about other things to do with the welfare. But I can't be accountable for what the World Health Organization does against the other organization, you're saying. But yes, I agree with you that like if we lived in a world where it was bad, or if that's the right word is obviously we don't live in an AI fair well, necessarily, other than when we will go upstairs.

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When we're down here, obviously, if we're living in a world where statistics are not counted properly, where people are not being counted for being, whoever they are, whether that's male or female from normal purposes, or unusual purposes, then obviously, it's going to mean that the statistics are gonna be unfair. And in your context of if somebody is doing it unfairly or, again, with their win or against their will, then obviously, that's also going to create unfair statistics.

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Or MGM is counted as the removal of genitalia, if that's what it's counted as whether it's done willingly or unwillingly should transgendered operation, the likes of which you've done, also be counted as FGM slash NGO.

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If you've done it willingly, then it's not abusive, okay? You're the idea of if somebody's standing, either against their will or just taken off their powers for the purposes of satisfying their husband or their culture. I don't agree with that. Or their culture. You just said culture? Yeah, satisfying. There has been older culture, but Western in Western culture, we know that it's acceptable for someone to change gender. So that's actually a cultural thing.

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Why is it okay for the western cultural paradigm to be accepted? And the rest of it is backward? Let's say, I'm not saying that I'm not justifying them doing this.

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is wrong, but I'm just saying that the standard is not normal. It's not normal standard. Okay. So we need to go slowly, again, please. Right. So we have a system where people are doing it because of culture, and they're just cutting off their parts. I say that that is not right, morally, and also not right. For my purposes. Obviously, I'm not the judge. But I believe that that's not right to do it, even if they're willing to do it.

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I believe if you're just cutting it off, and you're not creating, even if you're doing it, if you were doing it willingly to become something else, I believe that's okay. But if you're doing it willingly, you're going to have nothing, yes. Or if you just say no.

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That's not

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what you just said. That's what I'm saying. What I'm saying is you're dictating the terms of liberalism, that's actually against liberalism. liberalism is you do whatever you want, so long as you don't harm anyone else. Which means that if someone wants to get rid of their clutches, for whatever reason, maybe they wake up in the morning and say, You know what, I don't like where this looks. You want to get rid of it? Yeah, it's just a justification for cultural reason. To do it willingly, according to liberalism, FGM is actually acceptable recourse.

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So you're saying,

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if this is if changing your agenda is acceptable, then FGM willingly done is also acceptable and if not, why not?

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As I just said, we need to go slowly. Okay. I I'm in a country where I should say, this is why I'm saying we need to

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understand each other in this country, at least, if you choose to do it, like I've gone and I've chosen

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Okay, so I've done it willingly. And I've chosen to go and do it. And it's legal in response. You may disagree with it, but the fact is legal. And the fact I've chosen to do it in the fact that's the way I feel better, because I didn't want to be raped Brian anymore. So there were purposes and reasons other than gender dysphoria, or male and female issues, why? I'm not attacking you or your personal like cell phone. You're sorry. I really, really leave that to you. Yeah, I'm just talking very specifically about the issue of double standards. Yeah, no, but you can't talk to me and not expect you to talk to me who, you know.

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I'm saying that in this country, and in other places around Europe, it is legal to have a sex change. You're talking about countries where it is either illegal, or people do it for other reasons, other than feeling good about the reasons why they're doing. That's my interpretation of what you're saying, for example, I've done it because I chose to do it. You're talking about examples, where people are in countries where they're doing it for strange reasons, familiars for me, I don't see a reason why a lovely girl should take away her vagina. Someone can say the same thing about Amanda can always penis. Yeah, but taking away his penis and becoming a woman is a

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different is a different thing than a woman

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doing it willingly. Okay, well, if they're both, as I said to you, that my feeling is a little bit double. On the one hand, if it's willing, then yes, I agree that if he's done it willingly and in her culture, then that is okay. Then on the other hand, I have a slight issue with the fact she's done it and she's taken away.

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Didn't want to talk to you today. I told you that I'm Muslim, you didn't really want to talk about religion. So I've discussed this with you. But I'm gonna tell you that despite the fact that you've done what you've done to yourself.

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I mean, let me be straightforward with you. At the time of the Prophet Muhammad, people who had done the same thing, probably gonna be really religious and tell me I'm going to hell or something else. Okay. Will you be surprised that people that have done that? The same thing like other times, it was castration methods? Yeah. There were people who actually have done that have castrated themselves, whoever isn't like that had their own culture was put together.

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We treated them well. They spoke to them with kindness. He didn't treat them badly. He did. Like he spoke to them just as anyone. So hey, I'm not I'm not trying to condemn you. And I don't want you to take from one that I'm attacking you as a person.

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Because that wouldn't be following the Prophet. Muhammad's political example. These individuals, by the way, the scholars of Islam, they even know how

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to debate a woman wear a headscarf in front of these guys or not. Because, you know, I mean, we have discussions about this in Islamic jurisprudence, the point I'm making

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is, it's nothing to do with your your decision. Because you can take, what you've done doesn't prevent you from being let's say, a Muslim you want to do you want to do in the future, that's okay. I want to be able to see what you've done in terms of your thing. It doesn't prevent you from being that's point 1.2. I wasn't making an attack with you, because I know he's going through some very tough things towards me, I don't know why I'm saying.

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Number three, I was just saying, generally, there's a double standard in terms of the way the West operates and the way conceptualizes different practices. And I showed that by showing that if someone is willingly removing the eclipse, Eclipse risk, or they'll appear, that will be classed as FGM where someone is willingly changing from male to female or female to male that's not classed as FGM or in tells exactly the same methods. I believe the debate on FGM therefore has to say can you shift the debate on FGM has to take into consideration willingness and non willingness and it has to also be fair to the biological standardize set for itself according to Who can I say, for my, for my

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purposes, I know for my purposes, I fought

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for my for I fought the purposes for my For my part, I found the purposes of

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deliberately doing it or not, not deliberately, deliberately doing it unwillingly was against the law. And doing it willingly. Was was not again.

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I don't really I agree with you that if somebody willingly wants to do it, then they should. So really, they should redefine FGM the West has to now redefine FGM so that it doesn't have as part of its definition people like yourself, yeah. Being actually Mmm, why not counted as the statistics has to redefine it and include willingness and non willingness.

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And if not, then it's a contradiction. And it's a false way of societally sociologically collating data

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I'm misrepresenting certain nations, are you saying that they put the people like me with the people who have had

00:30:09--> 00:30:22

FGM OMG. I'm saying that because in their definitions, willingness and non willingness is not included, therefore they should qualify for the FGM was basically people who did it on willingly. So that's how it's passed this

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relation, whereas I haven't mutilated, I've done it willingly. Whereas if somebody does mutilate somebody in another country, chop off their whatever, like they used to crucify Jesus or do heinous crimes, then this is against the person's will, therefore, that should be illegal as regards

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as regards that, as regards the claim or the scenario of you saying that somebody in Sudan right now, for example, is castrating themselves willingly is a matter I would need to think about a bit more clearly. But for my purposes, definitely, I have the right to have a sex change. And the person who is having that done to them like Jesus did on the cross, or whatever, or being castrated for horrible purposes, is obviously against the law.

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That's what I wanted to say. Well, thanks very much. I'm sorry if I came across as rude. Yeah, me too. I just wanted to basically flesh out a particular social issue. Okay.