Channel: Mohammed Hijab
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So why Kabbalah delay or cancel and welcome to the 10th episode of the podcast? Where it's been quite a controversial podcast for for for the time that we've been doing. For those who don't know about them it was because we were bringing, like, Muslim academics on we were bringing different people on but now wanted to kind of expand the range a little bit and bring an interesting guest Aliyah. How are you? I'm good. How are you? Yeah, not bad. So Liam, as far as we know, from looking at your social media, your Twitter and other accounts. You're transgender. You identify as a trans woman. Yes, yeah. So can you just tell us about your story? Like what happened? growing up? When did
you make this decision? It wasn't a decision to be made in the first place. Mm hmm. So for me, it's I had a quite strange journey. I always knew, like, in the back of my mind, I always knew that I was trans and that I wanted to transition but I was dealing with a lot of internalized transphobia while I was growing up, and I was like, whenever I would have those thoughts, I'd be like, all Fuck that. I'm gonna Chinese. What can I
put up? Can I cuss? Yeah, you can use But yeah, I mean, okay, so you want to be known as restriction? Yeah. Okay. Um, so when I had those thoughts that like, when I was starting when I was really young, and I would have these, like, you know,
basically being intrigued by trans people when I saw them on the media. And I always thought that I was interested by them. Because in the back of my mind, I was like, I can't be a trainee. Like, that's disgusting. No, that's not me. Um, but eventually, I started to realize that that is, in fact, me. And there's only so far I can go with denying that true. So I, so I decided to come out as trans, um, a little over a year ago. Yeah, sorry. That's a little bit. So how old are you now? And when did you start getting these first thoughts about being strange, transgender. So when I right now, right now on 17, when I was when I was really little, I always had a fascination towards
feminine objects, objects, female toys, like, I always wanted to play with the dolls. I'm sure you've probably heard a lot of people say like that. I always wanted to play with the dogs. I didn't want to play with the trucks. But seeing the culture that was around me in the family come from, I just, I knew that I wasn't, I wasn't right. And so I suppress those feelings. And so this was around like kindergarten. And I remember when I was in third grade, I wanted to grow my hair out, like the girls that are in the Pentium commercial. And I've been doing that recently as well.
Yeah, and I thought, I saw these women and the commercial and they were so like, elegant, and they were so like, they were the Ecuadorian femininity to me. And to me, that's what I wanted to like, that's who I was that I was like, wait, I want like, I want I don't want I don't want to fade, I don't want like, you know, to look masculine, like a man like, this is the direction that I'm leaning. And so I told my parents that I wanted to grow my hair out to donate to cancer. In reality, I just wanted to have, you know, luscious locks.
And yeah, that was another timeframe where I was like,
okay, there's something, something's a little bit off about me.
Can I ask you a personal question? Always, you don't have to answer this. But in terms of sexuality, would you identify? Or let me ask you a two part question. When you were growing up? Were you attracted to men or women allowed up? I would still feel the same way. Yes, I was attracted to men growing up. And I always thought that I was just a gay man. And that that like that, I could wrap my head around, you know, like, being accepting that I'm gay. I could wrap my head around, but I couldn't wrap my head around and accepting the fact that I'm trans. Um, but that happened a bit afterwards. So in terms of,
then, like, let's say, for example, in your early teens for the sake of argument, because you're still growing up and still making kind of thinking about things, I'm guessing when you're growing up, and you just you decided that you were attracted to men. Did you at any point
I didn't decide. It was
It was a very, it was just there like, right. And it was something that I was I was battling with. It was a whole nother battle in itself because I didn't want to be gay. Right. So when you felt homosexual urges or whatever it may be growing up. Did you ever say to yourself that did you have identifies homosexual? At least yourself? Yes. So now post,
let's say transformation or this now that you've decided to be trans? Do you consider yourself homosexual? Or do you consider yourself straight? I consider myself a heterosexual woman.
Right? So your sexuality has changed?
I wouldn't, I wouldn't say the sexuality change, I would say the label to the sexuality change because homosexual means a man that is attracted to a man. But I'm no longer. Amen. That's quite interesting, because a lot of people, this is kind of a sticking point.
For a lot of people, so a lot of people say, Well, you know, I'm born gay. And there's no way of changing, changing that, but so on your model, in a sense,
you can change it if you change your gender, you change your sexuality, as well. Well, I wanted to go back to when you said, um, when I decided to be trans, it wasn't like, it's not that I like change something, it was more of discovering the fact that I'm trans. Hmm. Now, can I ask you a question? In terms of like, like conceptions, feminist conceptions of masculinity and femininity? I'm sure you've been exposed to them. Recently, there's been a shift in third wave feminism to kind of conceiving not only gender, but also sexuality as social constructs. what extent do you agree with the fact that actually, gender is not something which is biologically determined, but is in
fact a social construct? So I have, I guess, kind of an unpopular opinion of when it comes in. And throughout throughout my peers, I, I do think that there are social roles and placed on each gender. But I also do believe that gender is innate, like, there, there have been, there's a study that showed that trans women have a really similar brain structure to cisgender woman compared to a man and I there was also I was doing a lot of research on this topic. And I found out that your feminine and masculine qualities are actually innate, like they're in your mind, like they're wired in your brain. So and also were,
through the through, you know, how I follow Islam, Islam prescribes certain roles for certain genders. And I think that that's, I don't, I don't think that that's a bad thing. I think that when it's applied when gender roles are applied, tossed toxic Lee to people who don't want to conform to them, that's when I think it becomes more of a societal pressure.
Okay, yeah. So just just to go back to this question, and we'll talk about the religious element, maybe a little bit later on discussion. But going back to the social construct, right, so because just looking at the literature myself, I've written a book called fifth wave feminism. And I was exposed to a lot of which really was a combination of essays that I was kind of looking into. And that's why I'm interested in this topic.
What seems to come out in terms of literature, especially with Judith Butler, and third wave feminists like this, and also in trans theory, like a queer theory, right? queer theory, in general, it seems to be more that it's a social construct. So for example, we looking at someone like Judith Butler going back to her, she seems to insinuate that sex is a social, not just gender, but sex is a social social construct as well.
To what extent Would you agree with someone like Judith Butler, that sex is a social construct? So there are what's it called? So sex is defined by your biological characteristics, your chromosome? And there was other one one other thing that I'm forgetting, but i think that i think i think it's kind of a little bit of both. I see the argument on that sex is it like, for example, for me, I wouldn't consider my sex as a female. I wouldn't consider that as a social construct. Because this is how my brain was born. I was born feminine. I was, you know, like, that's how my brain is wired. So, in that aspect, I wouldn't consider it a social construct. But when you start looking at what
society expects of certain genders, and you compare and you fit in
into the definition of sex, when you look at their characteristics, so might be characteristics in this society that are massive that are feminine in this society and masculine in this society. So I think in that aspect, it's social. So like To be honest, kind of both understand what you're saying, but so you seem to be veering, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, you seem to be very more in the direction of that there is a large degree of this, which depends on biology. So you've mentioned chromosomes you've mentioned, yeah, maybe anatomy is what you're trying to.
Right? brain structure you mentioned, right? So yes, it is in that direction. And so you don't subscribe to, let's say, mainstream third wave feminist or queer theory conception? So
to be honest, I don't know I am, you know, a 17 year old girl trying to figure out what were my opinions lie? Yeah. And I see a lot of there's like this conversation in the trans community that says that you don't, you're not you do. You don't need gender dysphoria in order to be trans. And my first instinct is to disagree with that.
Because why would you be transitioning, if you don't feel the distress? You know, like that? I feel like gender dysphoria validates trans people on a scientific scale. But I see what a lot of
support not. I'm no, I'm no one to decide who is supposed to be trans or not. But I've heard from other people that are trans, who don't feel this for you, and still claim to be trans and I hear their I hear their argument. And I'm really in the process of trying to figure out where my opinion lies there. But like, as of now, I don't subscribe to that ideology, like the third wave, whatever you're saying, like there's a lot of mainstream ideas in the trans community where I'm not, I don't want to say I don't believe, but I'm just not sure where I live. I understand what you're saying. But here's why it's important to get this right, because so the people on that kind of side of the
argument would say, actually, gender and or sex is a social construct. Yeah. So this is really a postmodern idea. It's something called post modernism, where the biological element is almost completely
kind of sidelined. If you like, you know, this trivialize minimized. So the idea of biology is not a staple part, or the major point of gender identification, this is really their argument. So and I think, like, it depends on where you see what your perception of biology is, if you're just talking about just chromosomes, and I have xy chromosomes, and if you think that just because of that my sex is male, I wouldn't, you know, agree with that, because there are plenty of intersex people who have X and Y chromosome variations of sell, but that doesn't make their gender identity any less valid. Right? But this is what I'm saying. Where does validity what is the scientific approach of
identification, because if we do take a hardline biological approach, once someone can say, well, the buck stops at where the chromosome what the chromosomes are, like, so if it's an x, y, then that is male will identify that as male, if it's x, x will identify that individual as female.
And so if we do take this kind of, we're looking at the testosterone balances or imbalances, ovaries, looking at the womb, the existence or non existence of, and or a combination of all of those, you know, anatomical features. And then one one says at the end of it, with all of these anatomical features together, we determine male and female. And so the question is now, couldn't someone accuse you of picking and choosing in the sense that, okay, you've identified yourself as having X Y chromosomes, still, and you say that biology is important in terms of gender identification. And so then the What I mean by that is like the biology of my brain, my brain
structure, the fact that my mannerisms, as, as I've been born, lean towards feminine towards femininity, and that's what I mean by violence. But I think what a feminist may respond and say, especially a second wave feminists, and we'll say what actually what you describe as femininity are social constructions. Because when you were talking about playing with trucks and playing with dolls, this idea that boys play with trucks and girls play with dolls, or indeed that boys like blue, or girls like pink, or any of those things that you kind of referred to growing up as being the reason why you've discovered femininity as,
as as what you are, or female is what you are
may argue, actually, these are all social constructions, they don't have value in that sense. And that girls should be very my, yeah, that I that's why I disagree with a lot of a lot of feminists or, I guess feminists. Um, but I do think that there is value there, but I do I the reason why a lot of people like to argue against gender roles is because they have been applied to them toxically I think there is a value in indot, when it's not applied towards what's it called, when it's not apply when it's not forced on you, but it's there, because those gender roles are what helped me discover the fact that I'm trans. So I kind of put a value towards it. So I'd ask a question, why did you
associate long head?
mammals, human beings with femininity, for example?
I just, I just do like you, there could be an argument that it's a social role, because, you know, I saw it on TV, and I wanted it and, you know, it was whatever was the media. But to me, like, it's just like, it's just what I want, like, I don't know how to describe it, it's just like, Yeah,
but here's his, here's what I'm saying. A couple of months ago, I decided I want to grow my hair a little bit as well, because a lot down whatever, right? I don't have a problem with my hair grows, becomes much longer. For me, I don't really associate necessarily long hair with femininities is more prominent among females, I'm not denying that. If someone wants to have long hair, I don't think that is a calling for transgenderism. I think that's just a calling for not having long hair, right? You can, you can enjoy having long hair and be a male. Right. But there are ways in which you enjoy, like, when you were when males were, when probably the majority of men who wear long hair,
they don't they don't do it to be feminine. They don't do it to feel like you know, girly and to feel like themselves. And to me, that's what long hair does. So what does what does feeling feminine actually feel like? Can you explain that I'm quite interested. So to me, it's seeing myself as a woman. And to me, from my personal definition, what that is, is what I am trying to work towards in my transition. So that it means to, like have long hair to have a high pitched voice to, you know, have a feminine body shape, you know, when a little hourglass moment. But um, that's not to say that anyone else who doesn't have those are they're invalid in their gender identity. But that's just how
it is. For me personally, I understand, once again,
that just just touching upon some of those things, right? So say, for example, has very big waist, and she has more of an hourglass shape, right. And there's another woman who does not have that, right. And she is a, let's say biologically self identified woman, the one who doesn't have the hourglass shape, do less of a woman than the one who does have the hourglass shape. I think that what a woman is is in your own definition. And I would I would not say that that person is less of a woman. It's just for me, like for me what my definition of a woman is might not line up with someone else's definition. But that doesn't make their gender identity any less valid. Yeah, I understand.
And I know that but what what I'm trying to get out here is what is the definition of a woman? So if you had to define a woman, how would you define a woman?
It's great question. To be honest, there is there is the there's like just follow subscribe to all the gender roles, and that's what a woman is. And sometimes that's what I feel like but then sometimes I'm like, a woman is whatever you think a woman is, but then I think well, what if some grown ass man says he's a woman and like, you know what's going to happen then? And so, you know, I am going back and forth and answer your question. No, I'm gonna just say someone like me told you I was a woman would you write? I would? Yeah, I would be a little uh, but you know, I don't want like, I'm still learning. I'm still you know, there could be someone who looks like you but, you know,
lives their life as a woman. I don't know. Like, you're someone who's, let's say Forgive me for someone who
is a big person. Right? And who is maybe I'm describing myself here. And who's basically if if I was a woman or being 100% out somewhere, a lot testosterone in their body has facial hair, you know, has testosterone has male dicas I don't want to go and say that. If you have facial hair, you are not a woman because I do know of some trends.
Women who choose to wear, who choose to just not get rid of their facial hair as a protest, to gender norms, and a protest that I am a woman, and I don't need society to tell me that. But you know, so that's where I don't want to go into and say that, Oh, well, I don't think that I think you have to follow these specific societal roles to be a woman. So that's why I'm a little you know, hesitant, right? So what is a man?
This is the same thing. And so say you go and tell me what a man is.
A man a man is who you think a man is. So if, if a person a human being with a womb, and that is nine months pregnant, went to hospital and is giving birth, and decided to identify as a man, would you take that seriously? Well, there's plenty of trans men who have
given birth have gotten pregnant and what? Of course, I would like, what do you might take it seriously, like, I would respect anyone's pronoun, I would respect anyone's, we know when they asked me to call, in the same way, as someone like myself would claim to be a man, do you think? Because then if I if I didn't believe that they're a man, and how do I believe I'm a woman? All right, this is the point while we need to focus with me, right? Because
in the beginning of this discussion, we talked about, to what extent do you see manhood or womanhood defined as a social construct, and you kind of veered away from third wave feminism and post modernism and queer theory and stuff like that? And you basically said, I don't see that as being tenable. You, you move towards a biological theory said that biology does have a part to play.
You talk to yourself, you mentioned chromosomes, you talked about, you know, brain structure, and so on and so forth. And said, Okay, so what is a man? And what is a woman?
Oh, what I'm saying is, there must be parameters, okay? If there is no parameters, the category is not a category, it's no longer a category. The category is, it's no longer something which you can put
as a category. It's something which doesn't exist, right? You're meaningless. It's a meaningless category. So when we started talking about ways a man and was a woman,
when I started mentioning a woman, as a person who's giving birth in a hospital is nine months pregnant. Can they identify as a man? The argument of biology now?
Right? It seems to contradict this notion that you can have a do does this person has, like,
I don't want because you know, there is a, like, you can be a feminine trans man. But I think like, what I meant by that is like, Is this like, I would respect?
I'm kind of like, yeah, I get what you're saying, I get what you're saying. But there are like, I know, a trans guy that's gotten pregnant has given birth, like, that doesn't make him any more blessed of a man. Like I know him like he's, he fits my definition of a man. Okay, what is the definition of a man? My definition of a man is, you know,
the masculine, macho, protective, you know, facial hair,
like things that are considered traditionally manly. Okay, so, I think for those things, you can say about a lot of women, right? So protective, match or match, I'm guessing means here has courage or courageousness or confidence, right? So I think those those qualifiers, those kind of adjectives that you use, can easily be used with any woman. Right, right. Right.
I do agree with that. And that's why I feel like everyone has their own definitions of what gender is. That's not to say that if I see a macho masculine woman, I'm going to invalidate their gender and call them the man. I just traditionally, like, there there is there's tradition, and then there's like, people who don't subscribe to that tradition, and that's fine. But what that tradition is, what my definition what my definition would be, I guess you but it seems to be like you're willing to respect someone if they came to you and said that they're a man, but they give birth. They're nine months pregnant and they're in the hospital giving birth. You'll respect them. Okay?
Yes. And you would you would definitely respect their pronoun. Yeah, yeah. I'm not like I get I wouldn't I would be lying if I said that. In the back of my mind. I wouldn't be like, you're a woman. No, I don't.
It like No, I wouldn't say that because I there are some people who are just like, they they don't. They're
There's nothing about them that is would indicate that they are of the other gender. But they have another gender, but they claim to belong to it like just a straight up very feminine person a very just like someone who you would would not think is even a lesbian, not implying that lesbians are all masculine. But um,
when you see some of these people, oh, they just claim to be trans and I will respect them. But to be honest, like, in the back of my mind, I am a little like, What's going on there? Do you have ulterior motives? Are you just looking for attention? I'm a little, but that could just be my own internalized transphobia refusing to accept that there are other x gender expressions. Okay. And there must be a question that might seem off topic, but believe me, I'll come back to the topic. Right? You'd have a mocha right? Yeah. Yeah. Do you believe there's racism in America against black people? Yes. Yeah. I think most people would agree with you, right? Yeah. Now, let's say there is I
know you've got affirmative action programs in America, you know, affirmative action. Have you heard of it yourself? They bring people into universities and stuff like that they it's almost it's not a quota system. But it's, it's a system where you'd give opportunities to black people to come into universities where they would not otherwise have those opportunities.
It's a program. But there's other things as well. It's just like, now there's discussion about repatriations it should black people now get money reimbursements because of the slavery the past and all those things. And this discussions about that. And so I take it you obviously respect the movement like much I've asked you yourself, do you respect the movement of black people trying to get their rights trying to class because for the longest time, they have been left out of a lot of things. So it's only fair to give things that are only for that, you know? Yes. And and so would you also believe in something called white privilege where, you know, that's the you know, why maybe
middle class person has certain privileges that black people don't have? Yes. All right. Now, if someone who, let's say, is an archetype, a white person, right, I feel like I know where you're going with this. Yeah. Okay, I'm coming to you. Now, I told you, we'll come back to our discussion. And it'll make sense. someone's like, as a white person, who's Good, good. He's got a good salary. And he's got a big house. And he's come up Harvard, or something like this, right? So everything is going well, from the material sense and when the material sense for that person, and they come out and say, I identify as black.
And I want to have all the privileges that black people have.
To what extent Would you accept this? At not at all? Like, there's no, there's no reason like,
why, like, you can't? Do they have racial dysphoria? Is that like, Is that a thing that scientists have cracked down on? That numerous doctors and professors and educated people across the world has vowed support for? No, that's just someone looking for attention.
Understand, but if someone is very sympathetic towards black people struggle, someone who write and record videos in the culture of Black
Lives Matter. And they feel from from this experience, that they genuinely are a black person, they believe that they're a black person. So would you would you respect them? And would you call them a black person, if they called because that is
black to the actual experiences and oppression that black people face? That white person isn't gonna feel those things? has never felt those things. So for what reason? Are they blocked? But some conversation there's a conversation of someone who is not black but passes as black? As conversation on would they be sad? You know, What day?
Would they be able to claim depressions but people have like died as a potential conversation, but a white person who says they're black just because they want to be black? But do you think that men could ever
go through men? Let's say that when I say the word men, Helen be very clear. People who are born with X Y chromosomes and who don't have a womb and who may have to saucer on a body and who may have a penis and testicles. Someone who fits that description someone like myself? Could they ever feel the same way as a woman who's practically given birth and or feels the discomfort of the menstruation on a monthly basis, those biological points which are exclusive to
Someone who has xX xX chromosomes and who has ovaries and that is that is not true those traits are not exclusive to people who have xX xX chromosomes there are there are biological features are not exclusive to chromosomal sexes because intersex people exist there can be someone who has an x y X chromosome, but yeah, and I accept that I accept that. No, I'm not talking about those people, those people me and you have we I think there's an agreement that they are kind of like an anomalous case or a case which needs a different discussion altogether. But I'm talking about someone who doesn't have xx xy, who does have X Y chromosomes just x y. Right? And that individual, could they ever have
the same experience? As a woman who has monthly menstruation? Who has x X chromosomes? And who's given birth or and or who, who has the exact physiological physiology of a woman has estrogen and her body and all of those things, you think that someone who is x y can have those experiences, exact experiences? I don't think that it can be the exact experiences as a sis woman. But I do not think that being a woman is dependent on menstruating and yeah.
But to say that, like when I go out, and I get her, I get street harassed, I get catcalls and I when I go out into society, as a woman, I am treated as a woman. So I do think that in most aspects, yes. But there are actually okay. They say for example, we go back to our white man analogy or our comparison, let's assume that the man is not fully white. He has one grandparent who's actually black. Mm hmm. So do you think now the man has entitlement to call himself black?
I do not think that I am the person to speak on that considering I am not black myself. I don't think that it's appropriate for me to speak on black experiences, or accepted. But in the first instance, when I asked you if he's white, and can he identify, that changes things having what's called having a black grandparent? Is it visible? You know, there's all these things. They're all these components that come together? And that question, and I don't think it's my place to answer that. What if he has a great grandparent?
It's my place to answer.
Okay, though, because scientists say that we, I mean, especially evolutionary scientists, they say that we originated from Africa summit, right? So everyone's got maybe a black ancestor. Everyone can can can can say this. But the point I'm trying to make is that there doesn't seem to be an exact definition, right. And this goes back to our point, to what extent this by biology input into our decision making, right? Because
Can you imagine if there's two white people there as white as each other in terms of shade of their skin? Yeah, one of them has one black grandparent and the other one doesn't. And for one of them, there's a conversation as to whether they can be black or not. And for the other one, there isn't. Someone can say this is actually discrimination of some sorts, because you're allowing some to come in and some not to come in, you see. And it's all based on self identification. And this, it's kind of trivializes, to some extent, biology.
And this is the point when we start to trivialize biology,
then things will start to get messy, because then we'll start to say, Okay, well, race is actually a social construction. And this is what some of them are saying races are social. Because if sex is a social construction, a lot of them will say, well, race is also a social construction. Right? And the reason why people say that is because, you know, say that you don't happen, you are not black, you're not actually black. But you have a lot of the characteristics of black people, you have dark skin, you have, you know, curly hair, then what, from society, you might be perceived as black, and you might be treated as a black person. And so I think that's why a lot of people say that there is
a societal component to rates. Yeah, I understand. But what I'm saying is that, if we say it's a social construct, in the sense that biology no longer matters, and that says would you haven't said, but it's being said, right? If we say that then if race is a social construct, and racism becomes a social construct as well, right? Likewise, if we say that sex is a social construct, then sexism is a social construct as well. And so and so on and so forth. So, and if the penis is some way, a social contract,
Strike, then rape becomes a social construct. So the social construct thing has no end, right? Which is why it's important to bring sanity back in the conversation with biology, right. And that's why I say that biology might not be a perfect science. But it's more exact than the social sciences, especially for bringing post modernism and these ideas of social constructions.
And so, when we talk about what is a man or what is a woman, what is a male and what is a female,
I would put to you that I would submit to you that the strongest way of identifying This is a biological approach.
Okay, so do you agree with that? And to what extent do you agree with that? I do not think that it should lie solely on fire a lot like it again, it depends on what your definition of biology is. And also about like, are you using this to, like, for example, with the argument of like, very, like chromosomes, then I would be, I have a question for you. Do you consider me a man or a woman?
finish what you were saying first? And I'll answer that question in a second. And that's my question. Do you do you see me as a man or a woman? Well, my definition my personal definition, okay. You are x, y. And so because you're x, y, you would be male? I wouldn't, I wouldn't put man or woman there. Until you're male. I think man is now we're talking about characteristics, additional characteristics, you must have out. I mean, calling someone a man is I think, or a woman even as a praise, like saying, You're a man, that for me, that's almost praising them, right? But male is the quarter in Arabic, the quarter, you're a male, you're not radula is different. radula now, you're a
man, now, you have certain characteristics, which may be praiseworthy characteristics on my model, right? And if you ask him about my model, that's, that's different. So I would say that you're calm in the sense that you're a male from the from, from my perspective, because you're x, y. You see what I mean? But you're not x x.
You see what I mean?
I'll give you you have feminine characteristics. Mm hmm. But I also, you know, I think that feminine characteristics are praiseworthy characteristics. And I think that praiseworthy characteristics whether a man or a woman has them are good ones. So, for example, many of the feminine characteristics that you have, I would wish to have as well, many of them. So, like, maybe compassion, maybe a loving attitude, maybe whatever it is that you that you've been described as, and that you, you're very calm person, you're not cantankerous, you're not rude, you're, you know, all those things, which are good, you know, I would wish to have them also, once again, this whole
idea of femininity and masculinity, I think there's there is more of an intersection to use a feminist term, there's more of an intersection, and there's more interlocking right.
boundaries, which we should explore. Mm hmm. So, you do not consider me a woman?
Or look, this goes back to what the definitions are. If you if my well yes or no, it's a simple yes or no. Do you consider him? Yeah, I don't because it's the definition is x x or x, y, then for me, a woman has to fulfill it. If you're x x, or you x x or x, y. For me, my my definition of is biologically determined, right? So for me, we x x. And how would you refer to me in third person? wherever you'd like? I mean, I don't have a problem with if you want me to. If you want me to call you, whatever you want me to call you names are there for a reason I don't and your name you make your own name. More than and what pronouns Do you use for me? Pardon? What pronouns did you use for
me? When talking about me? which ones would you want me to use? She her? Okay, I'll use those. Okay, that's, that's interesting. Yeah. Because, yeah, you have a very interesting position. And all this, I'll give you that. I look, I'm not here to try and hurt anybody's feelings. Right, right. I'm here to try. And what I'm doing with you here is just thinking out loud and being honest, right? I'm trying to try and disentangle lots of ideas that we both have, and trying to make sense of the world. At the end of the day, we're trying to make sense of the world. Understand that you have these ideas, that you have these kind of notions about yourself and about womanhood about manhood.
But for me, it really is about let's have something solid. Yeah. Well, I think we should start with a very because you can't build muscles. I know and you said that you want you want this, this scale of gender To be honest, solid, you know, yeah, this or that and you're this or that. But when you when you talked about intersex people, you said that shouldn't the same be applied to them,
but they don't they don't have they don't have
agree with you that I think if you're talking about afrodite, the preferred term is intersex. Yeah. So intersex I'm afraid.
If you're talking about that, I think there's a valid scientific discussion there. I do think that if someone's xx, x, y, or x, y, y, or whatever it may be, I don't know how it works. But if that is the discussion, then I drive doesn't doesn't throw a wrench into the argument that gender is is a lot that fits in a box and that you have to if you have to, but that was never the argument. I was never making the argument. I think that for the most part, if we're talking about 7 billion people on the earth, yeah, I think it can be compartmentalised by, but for example, like for me, you said that I have x y. So man, anyone with x x or x, y is, you know, a man or a woman, it doesn't that
throw a wrench into the argument because that person also has X Y chromosomes. If a person has X, X Y chromosomes, they are an biological anomaly from the from the data that we have. I would say that the way to deal with that is for that person to see what is more dominant for them in terms of not only their their cognitive faculties, but actually their bodily composition. This is the usually what Muslim scholars would say that I've kind of taken knowledge from whatever, that they would say that it depends on what's dominant. So I do think there's a discussion of intersex people, right. I do think this discussion of innocence, but I don't think that it's like the same discussion we were
having with the pert with the with the with the white man with one grandparent, right? One black book, grandparent, you you actually were the one to tell me Well, hold on, I don't want to speak about this. Let's go to the black community and let them kind of decide, right? And then the fruits of it. So I'm saying the reason why is because the biological element, the same reason that you gave me for the black person, or the white person with the grandfather's black is the same, giving you with the X X, Y chromosome is that there is a there is a complexity, there's a biological complexity there, which requires us to now kind of unpack, but me and you kind of an icy
complexity is there with trans people? Is that's what I'm trying to say. Yeah, but what the complexity is always is starts with a biological base, right? If you think about it, because when we were talking about the white man with one great grandparent, less black, right, that's, that is strictly biological descriptor, okay, then white in color, their black color, right? So they can actually go and see what color they how much melanin they haven't made. And the same way a lot of trans people have gender dysphoria, a recognized medical condition, in which the assigned sex at birth does not match their gender identity. So I understand. Now we're kind of moving to psychology,
right? Because there is a big difference between the biological determiners and I guess, I guess, yeah, that's what I was, um, I misspoke then I wasn't referring to biology but psychology, I think psychology plays an important factor in but but in terms of ranking, right.
If we if we say if we go into the the realm of the domain of psychology is important, then we have to say the white man that I gave you the white, you know, middle class man, he could have full psychological conviction that he's black for psychological certainty that is black, but you've disqualified him from ever being black because he doesn't have the skin for it. Or he doesn't have the melanin doesn't have the parents for it doesn't have the grandpa and dad it that that enters a very gray area because
for trans people you can when you compare it to that you can transition your race you know how you're trying to say that the white person doesn't have black skin or that's what I'm trying to say it's a white pas have black skin they can experience what a black person experiences but that's not the same for trans people. Because I can transition into a woman and experience I can transition my physical appearance into a woman and experience the experience of a woman How do you know that you can experience an experience of war? How do you know what you're experiencing is the experience of the case for example, I am white guy that that we had the example of you might have experiences
which she thinks are the experiences of a black person. They're not actually the experiences of a black person. Mm hmm. So how do you know that? Yeah.
Do they have white skin it's a very simple question. What is the color of their skin? Let's say that the skin is like Michael Jackson.
I mean, he's a filmmaker trying to make this look complicated but
I'll be no Huh?
What what are their what are their features? Do they have African American features Do they have like a large nose Do they have
Like large lips, like, these are things that matter when you're being perceived by society depends like, you know, if you go to East Africa, they don't have as large nose and lips as they do maybe other parts of Africa, but I don't think they're any less black. Okay, I, I'm looking old fashioned. You see the idea. But what I'm trying to say to you is that the argument has to go back to biology, right?
I don't think I want China to say that. It has to be dependent on your chromosomes. I don't think that's true. No, sorry. No, no, I'm not saying has to be dependent on chromosomes. I was just one of many things that you said. Right. If you remember the beginning of this conversation, you said that his brain structure chromosomes? I don't know what else you mentioned. I can't remember but physical, physical appearance. Yeah. physical appearance. Yeah.
All right. And internal organs. Yep. You external organs. Internal organs are actually getting to a point where they can transplant a uterus inside of a trans woman. So if you have, do you have a penis I trans woman can get pregnant. So it's asking a very straightforward question, but maybe you don't answer this. How
do you have a penis?
I am a minor. I did not feel comfortable answering that question. Okay. Do you think that someone who does have a penis? Yeah. Uh huh. Do you think a penis is a disqualifier?
To womanhood? And I do not think so. Because is your penis out and about when you're being perceived by society? Yeah, most likely not. And there are some people who just embrace the fact that they have a dick. And that's just that, but they're still they're still a woman, and they're still being true to themselves. And that's where it is a very gray area. And I'm sure you're trying to like, find some gotcha moment. And when I say inconsistent, but, of course, I'm trying to I'm trying to figure out, like, where I lie, like, I like, if you were to ask me right now, do you need dysphoria to be trans? I don't have a straightforward answer to that. So a lot of questions you're asking me,
I really don't have a straightforward answer. Not as cool, but so long as you're willing to go back and think about them, and maybe look at this again, because I'm not trying to believe you, me, you know, my approach is laid back. You know, we're having a discussion, I'm just being honest and thinking out loud. But
I want you to think about it, because these are really important questions.
And it's not a decision that you could take lightly, because,
you know, if you want to actually do the SRS, for example, so a lot of people want to do SRS surgeries.
That's a huge decision. I want you to know that, right? That is a huge decision that will severely alter
you know, your life forever. It could, if you if you decide to do it.
I don't know if you're deciding to do it, or, or what, I'm not sure what the guidelines are in terms of a we even had it done. Oh, if you haven't had it doesn't exactly right.
But it's a huge decision. Right? And that's one thing you don't want to get wrong. Which is why I agree. We're talking about these things, and we're thinking about them. Because if you a lot of people actually commit suicide, there's lots of statistics like shocking statistics about people who have gone through surgery, and highly regret that, okay, because we're developing people within there's two there's two approaches. I have two questions for that. The first one is did you know that the majority of people that do transition, deep transition not because they felt as if they're, they picked the wrong gender identity, but that it was just too hard being trans and the the, the
oppression and the societal pressures they face was too much and that's also another reason why a lot of trans people even after surgery and uttering themselves
Yes, as you know that no, it's very interesting fact.
It's good to talk about that and I want to talk to you about the
the Islamic aspect Okay, this this is what I am here for this is what I'm here for
the reason why I came because I know you have a very conservative conservative audience and I wanted to communicate my views to them in my The way I see things and I want I really no conservative audience
I've done some alerting in your comment section sir.
But no, I do have a lot of questions because like, a lot of people are I'm sure you've seen my mentions or if not like they're filled, filled, filled with people telling me I will toss it I can't I can't be trans and Muslim this this and die like it's hot. Um, but I really disagree with that. And let's I want to get into that. Well, let's start with homosexuality. Yes. Okay. Because let me just throw a verse at you and tell me how you interpret it. So
There's a verse in sort of a mammal which goes like this it goes, well Walton is Harley called me he attached to an alpha hashtag Mesaba Khan Academy melamine in accumulated tuna, DJ Alicia what I'm doing this as well, and to comb tag alone, that you
go approach men.
mean doing this? Other than for other than women, right? So, in other words, this is not, you're not going for me going for men by home touch alone. May you're an ignorant people. Yeah. Then the verse continues, but what do you how do you reconcile that with your worldview? Yeah, so my interpretation of the Quran and the story of Luke and I, I think that diverse was condemning the rape and the adultery that occurred in the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. I think that I, because listen, I just have a very straightforward question. How is a creator going to make a person a certain way, and then forbid their existence? Like, I have to, I have to cover up because I male male sexuality is so
strong and like, we need to stop creating temptations for them, and make it easier for them. But then we go around and tell gay people that they are that their sexuality is a sin that they have to live their life as a vegetable with no companionship was no love. That doesn't sound like a merciful God to me. And so when I read those verses, and I looked at it, with that in mind, I was like, hey, some people, some people, they can accuse you of reaching, and you know, if even if it is reaching out to which I'm willing to take because I, I cannot like make myself believe that love is wrong that to keep two consenting people is wrong. But when you look at both, and when you look at the
story of loot, they were thieves. They were highway robbers, they were rapists. They were terrible people. Terrible, terrible people. I don't think that that's comparable to gay people. Yeah, okay, I give you a granule of that. But the verse I quoted you was particularly condemning
the shower, that it was condemning the lustful attitude that they have and that they acted upon towards men. And the way I interpreted that is if you are cheating on your wives and with someone else, I don't put as much value on the fact that it states man. And I know like to someone to a lot of people that is no you're picking and choosing, you're reaching, but like, you know that the Quran instructs us to supposedly a lot of ex Muslims, they're like, oh, the Quran instructs us to hit our wives if they misbehave, and there's a lot. There's a lot of
saying, oh, wives,
not like, Yeah, yes. Now you go back to the mill, you know, you're thinking No, no.
That's not what I'm
not. Okay. But, um,
and a lot of people, a lot of Muslim scholars, I just find it very fascinating how, when it comes to that, they're like, well, a word has a hunt, a word has thousands of interpretations. There's so many things that this could mean. Yeah, I applied that same way of thinking when I read passages in the Quran that could be interpreted as homophobic or transphobic. But I don't hear any difference between the two I would say is that whereas there are like what we do with the Quran in order not to make it whatever we want it to say and for us to read from it what God wants us because, look, we have to go back to basics. We believe the Quran is the final revelation. Yeah. And so I'm assuming
you're gonna say we look at the deeds right? No, not even I was just gonna say that. We look at the clear text. So what Allah says kulu Allahu Ahad so he's got one and only we don't we don't try and reinterpret that in the way we want because you know, the Quran says something quite interesting, right? There's a verse in chapter three verse seven,
a cometan. When the old keytab were or Mater shabby hat mlsd nephew kulu him xylophone fed Tatiana mata shabba hamin habito fitna over to
this verse is saying that from this book, there's two kinds of verses I mean, a ton more Kemet, that is the clear cut verses. And these are the foundations of the book. These are the the basis of the book if you like what automata Shabbat and other verses are ambiguous for MLS in a few albenza. As for those individuals, in whose hearts there is by version, if you like, for it to be our own match.
Joshua Hamlin habito, el fitna, whichever attack Wheeler, they follow that which is ambiguous from it, seeking there from some kind of tribulation, and and seeking to apply interpretation, excessive interpretation to it, and no one can really interpret those ambiguous verses except for God. But the point I'm making here is when it comes to understanding the Quran, it's really important to look at what the clear cut verses are saying. So in this verse, it's saying this in the accumulator tune that the jailer shall wear 10 min Doonan, he said, Are you this question? Oh, you approaching men, sexually and lustfully from other than women and I've always you have Yeah, and I and and and that
where it says instead that other is where I feel like it's referring more to the fact of adultery and the fact that people have cheated on their wives by raising another man. Well, that to be viable. It would be
mean do nissa yquem right. For it to be your wives it would be I'd have to be nissa equiment have to be your wife's right. But it's not saying and this mean doin Anissa so Elif lamb here is the rocky Yeah, this is Elif lamb genitive is, is completely in capturing all women that exists. And this Elif lamb, which is like all women, so in their cumulate to Earth in the accumulator, 200 jealous. I mean, do nysac Yeah, from other than women as a category. So you go in for men other than women as a category. That's why you're not fine. Because you got to think about conceivability here. It can't be that for 1400 years. 440 years of want to be exactly. There's been so many commentators, man,
woman, people from from China to Spain, right. for 1004 years, nobody has interpreted this verse in the way that you're saying, no one has done that. It couldn't be that everybody is ignorant of that. It couldn't be. You see what I mean? And I I do think that there is there is, I feel like there's a lot that Allah is doing everything for a reason. Yeah. And I think he did. He did be what's it called? Cause those those commentators to, you know, agree with the mainstream belief. But when you look at it from a perspective, when you're not forced to believe anything, and you're not forced, because in a lot of places, you have to believe something, and that's just the way it is, otherwise
you face persecution from the government or from other people. But when I look at it, from just an open mind, and I read and you also have to acknowledge the fact that diet, it that seems like straight up oppression, like you cannot conversion conversion therapy has been known to not work has been known to be extremely hard, harmful to the participants. So what, like if we were to believe that homosexuality is a sin? What is a gay person supposed to do? Well, why are they not?
Sexual sexuality, we believe is a sin. So we don't believe that if you have homosexual feelings, right? But then it's the argument, oh, if you act on it, then you know, you're sinning. Not just that if you act upon it. I mean, if you think about the act of homosexuals, I'm so sorry to put this into a vivid format for you. But
actually, having sex a man having sex with another man, for example, where the penis is going into the rectum repeatedly, to the point where it's, it could it could even injure the other person. And it's, it's actually very painful. must be very painful that that is we're talking about that act. We're talking about a man deciding to undress unclothed another obviously everything that leads up to it is also hallum. Right? But unclothed another man, for example, I'm giving you one act, homosexual act, and then erecting himself and penetrating the rectum, to the point where, you know, if you read reports, many of these men's illnesses become injured with fish's coefficients, because
of the deep penetration of, you know, and bleeding comes up. And sometimes they can't even hold their own stool. So they'll be walking in the street and the stool actually just comes out of their anus as they can't even hold up. This is a serious act for someone to do that repeatedly.
I mean, it's quite a selfish act. And I think another reason I, I, I don't think that homosexuality is like, I don't think that being a gay person is revolves 100% around sex. I don't think that that's what it all is about. Yeah, like we're talking and that's why it's important to when we're talking about these things.
That is for us, like the crux or the pinnacle of waushara. Right, these kinds of actions. And if when you start to I'm sorry to have, you know, really spelled out for you like this, but it's important that you spell it. Do you know that? Um, yeah, yeah.
The math G spot is located inside the anus. This is a lie. Why would God? Why would God put it? Gee, I mean, that might look, I'll be honest, I don't know if there's any study that says that is the case. No, I was
working with a I'll tell you a story. I used to work in the city in this center of London. Yeah. Where does like tall buildings like what you guys have in Manhattan or something like that. And I was 19 years old, so close to your age. And this was the year I was actually selling land. I was a land broker. And one day, I was talking to a female that was working there as well. And she said to me, exactly this. She said, you know, why is it the case? If If you know, if God is forbidding homosexuality, why would he put the juice bar of the man inside of the anus of the man? I turned around? I did not know what she's talking about. That was 10 years ago, and I still don't, I'm gonna
keep coming. No, no, no, I don't know what the hell No, honestly, I don't think even any study. You can, can can maybe, maybe for some men, I'm not saying but that is beside the point. The point of the matter is this is that honestly, genuinely, genuinely.
The point of the matter is, if God tells you to do something, even if you don't like it for yourself, would you do it?
Yes, but it's, it's it's in the question. The question is, do you believe that? You know, the mainstream belief is that it's a sin. And Allah asked us to not do this. I? I don't think so. Because why? Why should a person be denied companionship be denied the feeling of affection, be denied the feeling of acceptance solely because of something that they can't control themselves? I just,
here's what I'm saying. Look, let me give an example.
I've used this example before, so maybe I'll use it again. Right?
What about someone who's fallen in love in a non platonic romantic way with their own sister?
Like the brother of the sister and they fall in love romantically? Not platonically with them
Mm hmm. Would you endorse this kind of relationship? And no, because incense leads to has a lot of harmful effects that it's very very tiring that homosexuality is constantly compared to things like pedophilia and incest winder incense has direct harmful impacts on society. Yeah, I've I've not committed to Peter feet. I've just mentioned brother and sister. Oh, yeah. No, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. But that's just
brother. Hmm. Brother.
That's just seems wrong to me. Like, why the why was it just seems wrong to me like that's why two brothers. Okay, or a brother and sister but they use a condom? or some kind of contraceptives. It just it seems wrong to me like I don't know what else to tell you the same way that like homosexuality is just seems
the most efficient if someone good friend of yours. Yeah. said Look, I want to tell you a secret. I'm sure you're the kind of person says no problem come into my house. Where you from Middle East. Maybe you make some tea or something or the you know, another point of
I don't know what what are you? What country are you from? I'm Pakistan. Okay, Pakistani. I was born in the US. Okay. No, yeah, I'm saying so you get some curry. I don't know some non these kind of things that you guys yeah.
Positions also from Pakistan. You see, so Okay, you sit down. You have the curry blow of London. Then he opens up, you know, friends open up. Yeah. So what's going on? I said, we're on to some we just don't tell anyone see what's going on. So,
you know, my sister, I've got, you know, kind of relationship I've got kind of feelings for.
And I don't need to judge me. But if God loved me so much, why would you know it says hopefully metallic mahato come? You know, when I took in the Quran, it says he's also Muslim, right? He says, In the Quran that says you're not allowed to marry mothers and your daughters and your sisters and so on. And so what what my response to that argument is, you're still attracted to women, yes or no? me know that this incestual person who has fallen in love with their sister, they're still attracted to women. Like Yeah, and might not there is there is no way out for them in this situation. Gay people do not have a way out. They cannot I see what you're saying. But no, what if they love that
person so much that they cannot imagine life with anyone except for them to the bad side? That's okay. But would you advise them to fight it? would you advise them to do it? I would, I would advise them to find it. I would tell them the harmful effects.
insets even with the condom because condoms are 100% effective, and preventing pregnancy, and also just like, well, if I'm so sorry to say, but I'm giving oral sex.
That I mean, I still think that's wrong because like the Quran says it's wrong and like, I don't see I don't see an argument as to why it couldn't be wrong. All right, so you're using the Quran here, right? you'd use the one, okay? But the Quran is as explicit. Okay? It's as explicit in its, in fact, it's actually more explicit in this prohibition of homosexuality than it is of interest. Because it's actually only one verse, only one verse in the entire Quran that forbids incest, which is in chapter four
and 10 verses that, that forbid, yes. And the majority of those verses that are supposedly condemning homosexuality, often talk about the action of the people have left. Not specifically what to do I know that that one verse you did, specifically brought that up, but I do see I do see another side. I do see another side. But I don't I don't see that other side for instance, because Okay, this was the was the evidence you would say is more pacing for ancestors and pacing for homosexuality, the fact that the condemnation of incest is not oppression, because you can go find someone else you're still attracted to other women about what you're doing is not using the Quran,
but you're using your own logic here, right. So because the verses when it says when it when it forbidden says it just says Javi metallic, two words.
It's me, it's been made haram for you, your mom, your daughters, your sisters, Audrey Metallica says two words must been made haram for you. You could even interpret that it's there's more scope of interpretation in that verse than there is for the other verses about homosexuality, you see what I mean? But I see where you're coming from. You're coming from more logical perspective, right? Yeah, you seem to correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying, how could God possibly conceivably allow? Yeah, this what you're saying, someone who is born a certain way, someone who feels this way, and this feeling is outside of their scope, they cannot control how they feel. And they just want to
be in a loving, warm companion, ship type relationship with another man or another woman if a woman were?
And so how could God allow? Or why would God deny the love of those individuals? Right? Is that where you are? His mind?
The purpose of life is not that people have enjoyed maximum pleasure.
This is it. The purpose of life is not that people enjoy maximum pleasure. Sometimes they write sometimes, because it can be sad, like you could kill people and actually make you happy. But that family, right, right? Only that you can there are things that Islam, because Islam is submission to God, to the will of God. Right. So when like, for example, let me give you a prime the best example you get from the Quran.
That Abraham story, which is also concurrent with the Old Testament, right? when Abraham had his sons, and he said, Abraham, he went to son, we believe this male in the light of filming me in the back, okay. Yeah, I saw in my sleep, that I'm going to have to slaughter you. And obviously we know that the prophets dreams, yeah, our revelation.
So he says, mother, Tara, tell me what to do. So you know, do what you the son said, Do what you've been ordered to do. And you'll find me patient. So he took him. And obviously it was about to slaughter his own son, but before he did, so, you know, God sent down revolution, telling him that instead, you can slaughter this, this sheep, and they slaughtered the sheep instead of the son. And that's why we do so an ideal fit. That's what we Sorry, I do what we do on the big eight.
After endo hijack, why we slaughter the sheep and so on and so forth. So this shows you look, if you submit to God, right, if you submit to God, even if it's something you don't like, God's gonna give you a way out and that's why the Quran says, well, may you tequila ha ha I love who Maharajah whoever has God consciousness and fear of God God consciousness. Allah will offer that person a way out way Zook, whom in high school a toss up and they'll prove and a lower provide for that person from places that they never thought even existed. But I said it's a conditional. You have to submit wholeheartedly to God even. Okay, let me put a pit stop what you're saying is I'm Shia. Okay, so if
Amal Matthew came down, and he told me that if a mama hippy appeared or if even further
On the first Sunday, counterpart's if the
if there was a direct line from Allah subhanaw taala that said, homosexuality is a sin, I will believe it, I will believe it and I will listen. But I, I think that there is there is some space there, there's some room that allows you to think with logic.
And I don't think that like, I just I don't understand how that's just like, one of the biggest things in Islam and just like, love, like, I can't wrap my head around that. But when you compare that to the,
to the story of the Prophet, um, he had a direct revelation like there was no, there was absolutely no room for doubt that that's what Allah wanted him to do. I write that there is that room for doubt, for homosexuality. But that's an invented room for that right? is invented the truth of the matter is, it's the same in Shia Islam in Sunni Islam in Christianity, and in Judaism. There is widespread consensus here, practically almost everywhere. I mean, there are some people nowadays which are trying to you know, change the rules or whatever, in the in the in the church, but that's different, but almost everyone recognizes that as an aberration. Everyone agrees that this the act
of penetrative homosexual sex to a man there's no way anyone's gonna, you know, accept that and allow that. And likewise, chance gender ism is something which is haram. Because the Hadith of the Prophet Muhammad and obviously this isn't behati but there is like, why is had these similar Hadees that the Prophet basically says the ones who's trying to imitate the opposite sex is Lana. A lot the basics, the you know, because you do you know, the backstory behind that to this, there's more than one Howdy, right? So one of them is narrated by a novice, one of them is narrated by the hurayrah. There's more than one of those heavy so those had those heavy thoughts. No, do you know what I'm
what what happened for the Prophet peace be upon him to make that statement?
The Hadith I'm referring to there's there's two of them, right? So there's one that says
there's a line that was sort of line one with
well, Motorola, Gillette, millimeter and 130 million regional, well, motor, well, motor agility milanesa. That's one of them. And that's it not versus Anyway, there's another one which says, l motor shebeen are the ones who, you know, try and imitate the opposite gender. It's so once again, this is all scattered around the, the corpus, there's more than one occasion. In fact, there's this shows you the the strength of the reports, because there's so many of those reports. What if it was just one isolated report, then? You know, it would be something else. But if there's so many, there was one isolated report, it would be a different there was room for doubt, right? If it was one
isolated report with one person, that's that is only only one person at each stage, that is
that is narrating it. Yes, there would be room for doubt. Yes. But that isn't so quick. Do you? Are you talking? So there's two of these that are used
to oppress trans people in Islam. And the first one is, in which the Prophet peace be upon him curse those who imitated other other genders. And then there was also a DC in which
a man had an Mandi on his hand on his hands and was brought to the prophet and was banished. So um, you know, do you know the reasoning as to why the Prophet made the statement on imitating other genders? Yeah, so like I said, there's more than one. So the one I think you're talking about is a different one, which says that,
you know, there's a prohibition on the ones who wear the clothes, you should wear these loops. Yeah.
It will be soon. I love certain Lisa, I think this is the Hadith where they literally wear the clothes of women, and the women who wear the clothes of men. And there's actually a really interesting narration by miss out, which, actually, I think it's a week narration but this one is interesting, because it kind of goes into this, where it talks about midnight I met aside from the from the signs of importance of the hour. These other ones are strong nations, by the way, this one is there's weakness in it. Le actifit Roger Luba Roger Lee will not have to be tomorrow, that basically that a man is going to be satisfied with another man, and a woman is going to be satisfied
with another woman. In other words, this widespread homosexuality is going to take place before the day of judgment. Lots of Hades, if it was just one, then there'll be a discussion but there were so many
Many of them so my, my, my question to you is like, do you know what prompted the Prophet peace be upon him to make these statements? Just one of them? Yes, just regarding? I think I, from my research, I think that there are different there are different narrations of this one certain circumstance. And then there's
this other Hadees that has the potential of, you know, there's like, Okay, well, the argument that I'm about to make might not apply there. But I see it as this is a very standalone idea. There, there could be a lot, a lot of things that we don't know, that happened. But the most common one that is quoted to oppress trans people, is in a scenario in which a content I was taught, I'm pronouncing that wrong, am I pronouncing that right Bill Clinton.
Neither one of our pronunciation though, you know,
they, there was one working inside the household of the Prophet peace be upon him, and was caught describing the body of another of
it was it was one of it was it was it was, there was a woman I was in the house, it was caught describing the body of it, of her to another man, and in inappropriate manner. And there was that is, in which the statement from the profit was made that curse these people, and that act like this. And I think that the big thing is, for more reasons, because it's the profit hated all trans people. No, definitely know what we're saying. We're not saying that the Prophet hated all people who
say that they were banished, and they were thrown out of the houses. Um, but I think there's a reason behind that. Like, if Oh, yes, yes. So the hadith of rejuven boo to him is that that's a that's one heavy thing, if not vs. Hadith. But this is once again requires elaboration. We're not saying kicked to the mother house, like the house demo, kick them out. We're not what we're not advocating here. And I want to be very, very clear, right? We're not advocating any oppression against anybody. We're not advocating. Yeah, we're not advocating that anybody from any background is not welcome to be a Muslim to be to be introduced to Islam to be we're not we're not advocating
hate towards any community. But we are just trying to be honest with a tradition that is 1440 years old, which is the Islamic tradition and we're trying to be I can't cheat you like you see if, if I had you on and didn't make it very clear what the Quran and Sunnah said. And what the scholars interpreted in the Quran. Sunnah said 4001. Yes, I think you'd go about say, well, this guy's you know, he's playing me about right. So I have to be honest with you. I don't I'm not bringing you on to try and score points with you. or trying to attack you. I hope you have not felt like that. Have you felt like that? Why have you felt like this have been okay. It's been okay. Yeah, okay. Good has
been okay. That's the idea. We're just which we look. A lot of people that are going through what you're going through, it's a very natural normal thing. And what I want you to know is that look, we're here for you, honestly, we're here for you. We'll listen to your concerns. I will give you what you we think you need to hear, right? I give you some solid. A lot of people that you might go to your friends right are gonna give you kind of like maybe what makes you happy? Yeah, I know I get
something really beautiful and I want to just kind of push this to you. There's a beautiful verse in SoCal Baccarat chapter two of the Harada says quotevalet Kumu Patel, who are Quran Lacan, that fighting has been made obligatory upon you, and it's been and it's something you hate. This wasn't a case, self defense case. And so on. Yeah. Because fighting is something that people get really scared about, right fight. Imagine fighting, and your life can be lost. Yeah. But then the Quran says something really beautiful. It should be just remember if there's anything you want to remember from this conversation is just as well I said, and crochet and Wahidullah.
Why send to a bush and Whoa, Shadow like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, Alan went to let alone you could hate something but it could be good for you. And you could love something but it can be bad for you. And Allah knows and you don't know. There's lots of things that I if I wasn't a Muslim would be doing Yeah. I'm sure there's lots of things if you weren't a Muslim, maybe you do it. I'd be acting upon so many of my impulses. I'd probably be selling some illegal substances, maybe buying some illegal substances, maybe harming some people maybe I'll be in prison. I don't know. I would be on but there's lots of things that I've because the you know, the Heidi says something really beautiful.
This whole fact Hafetz agenda will mechanic that Jenna or heaven
heavenly abode has been surrounded by things which are hated In other words, not hated ideologically, but hated is difficult to do that difficult things to do. Uh huh. It's
it's not about depression, it's not about you just just coming out and being whatever you want to do and doing whatever you are enjoying and lusting, and Islam is about. It's about submission. It's about submitting to one God, he knows what's best for you. Like, for example, if you if you had a problem, right, if your stomach started hurting, very badly, right? And, you know, you start vomiting or whatever, and you start your skin started to change color. Maybe you start becoming a little bit darker. Okay, after you've gone to the Black Lives Matter protest, what would you do after that? You've got to the doctor, right? Mm hmm. I was just joking about like, you go to the
doctors, right? Because you know why? Because the doctor knows what's good for you. Right? So you agree the doctor note was good for you. You agree there? Yes. Do you agree with that? Yeah, the doctor, I mean, sometimes go for a second opinion, but for the most part good, was good. So I want to get back into what I was saying is, but let me just complete discuss Sorry, sorry, just just complete this and then we can get back to it. So the doctor knows you sit there, and you go to the doctor's GP, whatever, you guys call him GP in America, I don't know equal, we call him GP general practitioner.
All right. So I don't wanna make a mistake, then you go to the doctors, and the doctor says to you, look, this is a prescription, boom, yeah, you're going to have to take three, whatever it is a day, okay, you take the three tablets a day. And that is what it is. Yeah.
It might actually harm you, it might you might feel it might be disgusting, might be a medicine, that's quite sour, right. But at the end of the day, you know, it's for your best interest, because you are convinced that the doctor is competent and knowledgeable to the extent where you're not. And I'm saying that when you are truly submissive to God, you have to be convinced that he is competent and knowledgeable to the extent where you're not right. And that's why submission is a very powerful and beautiful thing. It's more powerful and beautiful, when you submit to the all knowing God, than it is to, you know, submit your own designs if you like.
Okay, gone? Well, you want to say? So what I wanted to say is, the whole reason why I joined this is to explain my views of the permissibility of transitioning in Islam. So a lot of people like to say that all content were cursed by the prophet peace be upon him. I don't think that's true, because in the very Hadith, that states that what's the cause these people are supposed to be cursed. It stated that there was one working in the household of the Prophet, and all of them, all of them stem from that moment, in which before this person, this person had access to both male and female quarters. And the woman didn't have to work a job in front of them. Yeah, and when when it was discovered that
one was acting moral, that person was pushed out and cursed. And this is not a this is not a belief that I only have there are many scholars that actually believe this, they they categorize the content. I do not know these like Arabic of it, pardon me, but they categorize them as those who have feminine characteristics for moral reasons to be whether that's like
just Mr. reasons and like say that in the situation where this person was wanted to gain access to female quarters to spy on them.
But there's also those who have innate feminine characteristics and that is just who they are like they can't control it there then there is a scholar. I think his name was an unknown he a naughty Mmm
Hmm, yeah, no, yeah. No, yeah. He He states that there is there's two kinds of more content. There is the there's the the one that's immoral, and there's no and their sin for them to act like that. And there is one that is that can't control it. That's just who they are. There's no
one you know, not not that. There. It's who Canton something like that. It's not Clinton, oneness.
Panda. Okay, so let's quickly differentiate between categories. Right. So you have a Honda, which is, let's say, intersex. Yeah, yeah. And there's a term called hongfa Mushkil, which is basically someone can be determined. Okay, that's different, right. So that's what scholars have said about the hunter mushkil. Is that the kind of the
intersex person is that, like we said, the dominance, whatever, whatever is done,
not how we're talking about then you have another category of people that were what you call a unit.
Yeah, I'm not sure if you've come across this term. It's basically men in prehistoric Arabia, who had their penises cut off. Okay. And that was a practice some men went through, not for transitioning purposes, but that was just if they were in the slave class, and that happened to them as humiliation or some kind of
retribution or something like that work. And so these Unix, as they were, were called Unix. And these individuals were, some scholars allowed, for example, a woman to wear, you know, normal clothes in front of them, were not normal clothes, but not to wear the hijab in front of them and so on. Then you have people that want to actually be something and there's something else. That's the third category, which we're talking about, which is really transgenderism. We're not talking about Unix, and we're not transgender people. Transgender is an adjective. Right? Right. So trans people, right? Yeah. So no, as opposed to transvestites, because transvestites are people who cross dress
but not. And once again, cross dressing there is specific Hadith on that. And we say that the headings are very clear. And they're coming from different sources, and they disallow the Hadith on which are more than one right, which took about imitation. That's also very clear. So let me ask you a question. If the Prophet was in front of you, right now, if you came to you, and said, Listen,
I want the best for you. But I want you to take off your hijab, okay? And I want you to wash up your makeup. And I want you to have a hustle, wash yourself fully. And I want you to pray and act as a man after that. Would you have any hesitation? No, that's that's the messenger of Islam. Why would I just obey Him? Right, but I don't believe I don't believe that. That's, that's what he wants. Because so going back to.
So I wasn't referring to the country, I was referring to the makan McKenna's. Um, so I know, I he he divided those into two categories. And I that's, that's another reason why am I okay, this is my beliefs on homosexuality could be considered a reach. But this is what I feel like is not a rich because it is very clear. And it's been supported by other scholars throughout history. And, like, what's it called? There was actually a, you know, as our university allows. Yeah. Do you know that there was actually there was a there was a trans woman there who got a fatwa from a Sunday scholar. I think his name was 10 T, I'm sorry, I'm butchering these names. But, um, oh my god, I feel like a
But, um, he a very prominent Sunni scholar who gave the permissibility of this student to transition and to be able to take the test and the female quarters, because they weren't this person wasn't being allowed to take her test and the male male section, they weren't allowed to test and the female section. So they released so my question is this very knowledgeable Sunni scholar who has devoted his life to Islam. And there's so many other scholars who have also said that this is allowed and you know, how you say that? You think the doctor knows what's best for you? Yeah. Doctors, medicine, psychology, all of that supports trans people, they acknowledge that we have a
Like I sent you before, and when I when I go to my doctor, he's the one that prescribes me my estrogen. No, look that you have to differentiate between going to your doctor who's prescribing you your estrogen. Okay.
I'm not sure if you have to pay for that. You know, it's covered. I am very blessed to live in a state where it's covered by insurance.
By the way, sorry, just as a tangent, what's it doing to you? Hmm.
The effects they Oh my god, they they're amazing. I I have I've developed breast I'm like, serious, almost a dekap I know everyone's always shocked because I don't really wear tight clothes. But um, I have like, I've grown I've developed breasts. I've my my body shape has gotten very like I've grown hips I've gotten I'm a very feminine body shape. What waiver all of this from estrogen. You just think an estrogen that's happening to you. Yes. And the other thing is I am blocking my testosterone. So like I got blockers do not have exercise from and what's it called? I my skin has gotten a lot softer. Like it's very, I don't know how to describe it. It's just gotten a lot softer
a lot clearer. The hair on my body. less angry more angry. Oh my god. I
Very, so we want to transform it first starts estrogen, they're very, all over the place. I am very moody, very emotional. Like I will. These are like the downsides like I will like watch like something that's like completely unrelated to my life. And I would just sit there and start sobbing for like 20 minutes. Um, it makes me very, because it takes a couple of years for your body to have a continuous cycle because transform and actually go through a hormonal menstrual cycle in the sense that when sis women have gone through their menstrual cycle, you know how their hormones hormone levels, differentiate,
transformed also go through that cycle. And but for the first two years, just like your body's trying to get adjusted to it, but yeah, the hair on my body has slowed down, like significantly. What else?
I was very fortunate enough to start hormones at 16. So my sons haven't completed my puberty. My male puberty, my facial shape is like, kind of kind of chase changing. Because when you start estrogen young, there's a chance that you can actually change your bone structure. Moscow question, Do you ever feel like you miss something that you had when you had testosterone? So like,
if there are things that you miss from having testosterone in your body? What are the ones that you do miss knotty lady like, I mean, I do miss the male privilege that I got, as I as I was, you know, people are actually taking you seriously. But I don't miss I don't miss like, anything like really when it comes. Not that they, when I look back at an old video, you're stronger and you have that testosterone in your body. It it, I did feel stronger. But it's like, it's like putting, I felt like a woman and the man in a man's body. Like, I felt like, out of place like this isn't. This isn't who I am. I'm a very like this kind of person. You know, I'm not I'm not like a macho, macho man's like,
and when I look back at old videos of myself, I can't recognize myself. I'm like, That's disgusting. Like me, I find it fascinating. Look, I'm gonna say to you, look, I want you to really think about what we talked about today. Okay. I don't want to take too much of your time. You've communicated with me on Twitter. And you're you can ask me any question you want. But why would I want to end this conversation with here? Obviously, we're ending on good terms. And there's nothing hopefully you don't feel any hostilities or tensions or I'm not trying to get you I'm not trying to harm anybody. We're just having a discussion.
is I want you to really think about it. Right. Do me one favor. Okay. Do me one favor.
review this conversation and the questions that we've had. Yeah.
And make a prayer call. It's the heart of prayer. Yeah, you know, it's the harder, yes, the harder and ask Allah to guide you to the right path. I know I asked. I asked that every
time and asked me I know, I will do it. I will do it. But yeah, I think we should all we should all be asking. Of course. Of course. I'll make diet for you. Okay. So that, you know, it's off for you as well. Yeah, I've said that already. She quit. Or I said it before you said it. Okay. Listen, if you've got any questions, please send them to me. Yeah. Okay. Do you feel okay, I have a question. I have a question. Yeah. Probably gonna be controversial, but this is probably gonna get a lot of use. Yeah, could wait a bit. Okay, so can you
put my link to my transition fund in the video? Here's the problem. If I do that, I'll be a hypocrite because I don't believe that you should be doing this, right. Uh huh. Okay.
Are you gonna monetize the video? Pardon? Are you gonna monetize the video? I don't know. I don't know. I don't I would prefer it to not be monetized. If you don't want to monetize, I won't monetize it. Okay. Thank you that I think that's a fair, it's a fair.
Yeah. And I see you have ads in the beginning of your videos, I would appreciate it. There's no ads on there. I'll cover now you know, you're dictating everything for
what you're getting. This is a controversial topic. Yes. It's going to get a lot of views, I'm sure. And if you can't, if I can't get a benefit, it's only fair. It's only fair. You're getting benefit. You have a long conversation, which I'm sure you've been edified
to fight as well. I've, I've learned a lot from you. I've learned a lot from your experiences.
It's not about money, believe me, we're not we're not we're not making big money out here. If I want to own something,
I just you you can do take that request how you do but I would just request that there would be no ads. So I'm not gonna put ads on this. Because of that request that you've put. I'm not gonna put Google ads on
My boy, I know what I'm talking about promoting a brand. You do what you want. I'm just telling you my request, say him promoting a brand. Yeah, like cuz I know you promote a lot of brands in the beginning oh you promote like one brand but I won't do it for you. You you are you are free man you do what you want. You don't want me to promote it. It's usually nature's blend is it is a company called nature's blend or something like that. Yeah, it's like honey, and they they're so good. Yeah, I would. I would appreciate if you wouldn't.
All right, no problem. Thank you so much. You're incredibly play. This was a very, I'm not gonna lie. I was when you when excited because me a man. I'm like, why am I here. But I do want to applaud you for while simultaneously holding these beliefs that it is her arm, but also respecting me. I do appreciate that. And I hope this conversation can start off conversation with all of your subscribers and all of the people who listen to your podcast.
It's an open door policy with us. And obviously, we're here to try and answer questions and be respectful. We're not here to try and drive people away. And look, anyone who wants to be submissive to God has already got my vote. And you're you're identifying as a Muslim, and I'm not gonna drive you away from this or the Parana. So now call your capital, any of those things that make you upset. I'm just here to try and give you the advice I think you need. And you know,
but just think I'm very, I was just very like, you say that the doctor, what the doctor says is right. And the doctor says that transitioning is beneficial. So I want you to know, you know, doctors ideological position, I'm just talking about the field of medicine, right? So when you go, yeah, you feel sick in the field of medicine, all the time field in medicine, it's very nice. Medicine doesn't have ideological position. Medicine is a scientific sub branch, right? Like there's the medical condition, gender dysphoria, and the chores to transition. Well, it's more psychological, right. And as we said, psychology has been influenced by ideology. So if you look at
the DSM, the DSM was a very interesting psychological manual. And if I, if my memory serves me correctly, I think in the 40s, or 50s, or whatever it was, they actually had homosexuality as a disease there. But then in the 60s and 70s, it became, you know, it legislators had homophobia as it as a problem. So clearly, it's being guided by ideological standpoints. But Alliance can be ideological, like for eugenics is the best example. eugenics is literally a racist program. Right. And, and it was a program that was was used in Nazi Germany to try and prove that certain races are better than other races. So yeah, it's not always there, there is two sides of the coin.
Yeah, I just want the last thing that I wanted, you know, to leave off on is that we're not all delusional science. At the time. Science supports us and has been supporting us. I just want to leave it off on that note, look, I think this is a bit of a far fetched one, because science is not meant to support ideological position. Science is meant to be an enterprise, which works absent of any ideology, you can have scientists support you about science, they do support you, they will be using their ideological judgment, not their scientific data, because science is neutral doesn't have ideology in it. It doesn't have right, so like science. Do you agree? Do you agree that science says
when you get a cold, you should treat yourself? No, it doesn't say that it doesn't say what you ought to do. It just says, what's recommended? I've been what is the case? Not what ought to be the case? So like, when there's an illness, and there is a What's it called? shorts? That Who do you think that that is not factual? No, look, illnesses have cures? But it's not always the case that you should like saying that you should take a vaccination. Yeah. Is an ideological position. So now I've become ideological when I say that, you should take it when I say should ought now I'm I'm putting morality into the equation don't take lines. So taking. So taking vaccines is now an
ideological position. Yes. And not taking them is also an ideological position. Okay, interesting. Yeah. Yeah.
Listen, any questions? Keep them rolling. I'm ready for any questions. And sorry, if I came across, as you know, imposing or asked you any questions that you felt uncomfortable with? That was fine. Yeah, this is the 10th This is the 10th episode of The MH podcast.
How you gonna plug my social media is though, right. I don't plug anybody's social media. Okay, fine. Fine. Fine. Alex. Also, I'm like, what's it called? I don't know what you're gonna put like, I've been um,
You're not gonna include like to print a job in it right?
You're not gonna include my user in it, right? He just said, No, I just want to make sure because I'm not, I'm not.
I'm gonna be changing it soon. So I'm like, if you are going to, I'm sure I'm sure people know who you are. I'm sure people who try and find you use something like this. Yeah, well, look, as I say, I'm not in the business of, you know, I if I did it with you have to do with everyone. And then it would, you know, just basking in orders. But once again, it was it was it was a pleasure to have you on and hopefully, there's something that you got from this. And hopefully, there's something that you got, I got that of course, of course. Okay. All right. And that was a 10th episode of The MH podcast. Yes, we bring in interesting and vibrant guests every week, as we had here today. Very
interesting and very unique experiences, which actually is becoming more prevalent in societies and the Muslim community should know how to speak to people who are trans, so they don't feel as hopefully we've done today, pressured by the same time that they have the information that they need to be able to make their decisions as salaam alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh