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The Jesus Debate – Adnan Rashid vs James White

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Mohammed Hijab

Channel: Mohammed Hijab

Episode Notes

Episode Transcript

© No part of this transcript may be copied or referenced or transmitted in any way whatsoever. Transcripts are auto-generated and thus will be be inaccurate. We are working on a system to allow volunteers to edit transcripts in a controlled system.


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It works out.

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Okay, so welcome. I do want to extend a warm welcome to all of you who are here this evening. For this special and important debate on Brexit.

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We're all here to talk about something of far greater significance. My name is Ashley Charles, and I'm a member of this church, salvors evangelical church. And as a member of this church, I would first like to extend a warm welcome to everyone who has come here, and extend Thanks to both James and Atlanta for all the effort that they've put into behind the scenes to make this happen.

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This evening, we've come together to do what many struggle to do in public discourse and politics. In these days, we've come to debate

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that is to argue one position against another. But to do so with respect for one another.

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By giants and ads, then I would consider to be the best respective representatives of both Christian and Muslim apologetics. And so we both a privilege and an educational opportunity to not only see these two men contends for their respective positions, but to also do so in the manner that can be modeled for all of us here this evening.

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Now, before we begin, I'm going to give you some venue information. So if you need to use the toilet, there's one in the welcome area. And there's some further toilets back in the hall behind the world mirror.

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And in the event of a fire, please go out the way you came in. But if there's a fire over there, then there's another box at the back.

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So with all that being said, let's get started. The subject of the debate is who resembles Jesus Christians and Muslims. The format of the debate is as follows. We will be having 20 minutes opening statements 10 minute rebuttals, then five minutes of Crossfire between both James and Adnan and then five minutes apiece for conclusions. Then after that, we're gonna have a little bit of time for q&a from from the audience. Depending on on how things go, we'll see at the end. And so with that, I'm not sure who won the contest or not. So I'd like to know contest. Okay. So I'd like to invite

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to the stage.

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Ladies and gentlemen, I would like to thank you all for attending this important discussion. This discussion is important because we will proceed in the spirit of love and compassion. There is a lot of hate and misunderstanding out there, which we both

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disagree with. And the point of this discussion, this dialogue, this debate today is to show the world that Christians and Muslims can come together as brothers in humanity and discuss the differences in a perfectly civilized setting, and go home in one piece.

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I always like to give presents to Dr. Jim James White, I have a special

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respect for him. And the the gift I have for him today is a very special indeed not that the others were others were not special.

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This is a coin from the first century of Islam. It is dated, it is an Omega dyrham from the year 97

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of Islam 97 Ah, when some of the companions of the Prophet of Islam were alive, it has an entire chapter of the Quran inscribed on the coin. And we see a lot of Christian friends out there claiming that Muslims do not have any evidence for the first century of the Quran. Some people do, unfortunately. So I'm giving this to a Christian scholar so that he can in the future confirm that I have something from the first century of Islam with Quran on it. So a present for James with love and respect.

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So we can start with my time now.

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misspell Iraq, manda Rahim in the Name of God, the Merciful the magnificent. The topic today is who resembles Jesus Muslims or Christians. What do we mean by resemble one can

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resemble someone in physical looks or in believes in behavior. So we will be looking at all these things today. Do the Christians actually resemble Jesus? When I say Christians, I mean Christians who are alive today who believe in the Trinity, who have certain ideas about Jesus Christ. Likewise, we will see that Muslims

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who walked the planet today who claim to believe in Jesus, is they believe actually true? Do they actually resemble and follow Jesus Christ? In all the things I mentioned? So resemblance and what? resemblance in worship? For example, do Muslims resemble Jesus in worship? Do Muslims resemble Jesus in beliefs? Do the Christians resemble Jesus in both these things? Is the discussion today to proceed?

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What did Jesus call God is a very important question. What was the word Jesus used? Among other words, in the gospels, one of the words is used, allegedly, we are told that when he was on the cross, he cried, or he explained, lie ilahi llamas, the botany which is actually Aramaic. If that is Jesus who is speaking on the cross, then he is using a word which the Muslims use for God today, which is ilaha illa, Allah and Allah He are exactly the same words using two different languages Aramaic and Arabic are sister languages. So the word Ilaha is the same word Muslims use for God. So our proclamation to accept Islam or to proclaim Islam, for that matter is what La ilaha illAllah.

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There is no god except Allah, except God Almighty Allah. So Allah, Li Allah, all stem from the same root word, Allah. So Jesus use this very term. According to the gospel records, of course, we don't agree that Jesus was put on the cross, we don't believe that. It was. It could be someone else. And that's another discussion we can have. at another point, I had a debate with Samuel green, not very long ago. If you want to see our view on the crucifixion, you must go and watch that debate. Myself and Samuel green.

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greeting. Jesus greeted his companions like the Muslims do, or vice versa. How did Jesus greet his companions? According to john 2010, Jesus said to his companions, peace be upon you? How do the Muslims greet each other today, obviously taught by Prophet Muhammad, who himself claimed to be a brother of Jesus in faith. So the greeting is As salam or Aleikum in the Arabic language, if we translated that into the Hebrew language, it would be shalom Polycom, which is what Jesus said to his companions, or possibly some

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version of that in Aramaic. So Jesus and Muslims are exactly the same in that regard. When we greet each other, we greet by saying Peace be upon you. The Christians do not do not do that today. Christians do not necessarily specifically use this mode of greeting each other in that Christians are not actually like Jesus that do not resemble Jesus in that prayer. How did Jesus actually pray, not what he said in his prayer? And even what he said in prayer doesn't actually contradict the beliefs of Muslims. Every single thing Jesus said in prayer, actually,

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most of it, what the gospel authors attribute to him is in line with Islam. So how did he actually pray? We are told in the Gospel of Matthew chapter 26, verse 39, that he actually prostrated. You went into the garden, who gets the money, he fell on his face, and he prayed to God, this is prostration. This is exactly how Muslims pray. And was Jesus inventing this? Was he just doing things randomly? Was this an accident? Did he just feel like falling on his face on the ground and praying like that? No. He was following prophets who came before him. As you can see the references on the screen. Joshua 514. We are told that Joshua fell on his face paid exactly the same way.

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numbers we are told Moses and Aaron, the Book of Numbers 20, Chapter 20, verse six, we are told Moses and Aaron prayed in exactly the same way, Abraham in the book of Genesis, chapter 17, verse three, we are told he fell on his face and he prayed to God. Likewise, we have in fact, the book of Revelation tells us that this is how angels pray to God by bowing to God falling on the faces, and nemea and one Chronicles 2116 gives us the same idea as to how the Israelite prophets or a nobleman, or priests prayed to God, they fell on their faces and they prayed to God and this is exactly how Muslims

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Pray today. Prophet Mohammed told the Muslims, that this is how previous prophets prayed. Therefore we pray like this. And this was based upon revelation, of course we believe Muhammad peace be upon him received a revelation from God, same God who sent revelations to Abraham, Moses and Jesus. And the Quran confirms the authenticity and the authority of these previous prophets. Yes, of course, the Quran also claims that their message, their messages were changed, they were altered, therefore, the necessity of the Quran, hence the Quran.

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So, Muslims pray exactly like Jesus did. And most Christians, and I say most over 90% Christians in the world, and I'm only leaving 10% to be safe. Over 90% Christians in the world do not pray like Jesus in this when we study how he actually prayed. Jesus did not consider swine he aboard pig meat, he actually did not do it. Why did he do it because he was a follower of the Mosaic Law. He was a strict observer of the Mosaic Law and we will see that how that is okay. Muslims do not, therefore consume pork or swine. So in that Muslims are very similar. They resemble Jesus and other prophets of the Old Testament.

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Jesus was circumcised on the eighth day we are told in the Gospel of Luke chapter two, verse 21, that he was circumcised on the day. Now the Christians believe that Jesus was God, even in the womb of Mary. Even when he was born, he was God.

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Because he had two natures. So when he was born of Mary, he had the divine nature and he had the human nature. So we are assuming now on the part of the Christians that Jesus is God, right when he was born. So if he's God, he's actually allowing himself to be circumcised. If he doesn't want his followers, the Christians, people who claim to follow him later on. By the way, when I say Christians claim to follow Him, there is no insult intended there. Rather, we have a view on Jesus, which is independent of Christianity. And likewise, Christians have a view on Jesus, which we respect and appreciate. We do not agree with it, of course, and this is why we're having this

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discussion today. We do not agree with the Christian view of Jesus, we have a consistent, historically consistent view of Jesus, which is in line with Islamic theology. Therefore, we follow that particular view. So there is no insult or there is no hurt intended here. So please be clear on that. So Jesus, being God allowed himself to be circumcised, knowing well, that his alleged followers in the future will not be circumcising, they won't be following. So why be circumcised in the first place, but Muslims, believing in him as a prophet as a messenger follow him in that regard, Muslim circumcised. Muslims follow the same tradition from the oldest in that Muslims have

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very similar or they resemble Jesus Christ? fasting, Jesus fasted for 40 days, Muslims also fast for 30 days, and they're following a similar tradition. Right. So in the Gospel of Luke in chapter 18, we are told that

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Jesus was telling a story of a fallacy and a tax collector, the tax collector was humble, therefore he was he has a higher chance to be forgiven, and fallacy has a lesser chance to be forgiven, because he's arrogant. But a point Jesus raises is that he, the Pharisees said, the Pharisees said to God, that I fast two days a week, therefore I am pious. And Jesus is using that as an example of piety. Therefore, he's endorsing it, and Muslims believe in fasting twice a week, likewise, on Monday and on Thursday, as taught by the prophet of Islam. So, Jesus using the example of the Pharisees, he is not actually rebuking the very notion of fasting for two days, he's actually

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rebuking the arrogance of the Pharisees, right? So this distinction has to be made. So Muslims fast like Jesus, or as he encouraged others to fast for two days to be pious.

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Now, Muslims also resemble Jesus in beliefs, unlike the Christians, what do I mean by that? Jesus worshipped his unique personal God, when he was walking the earth. He worshipped a unique personal God, not only that, he confirmed the Jewish conception of God, which was unique personal, Jesus was not a Trinitarian. Therefore Muslims are not trinitarians Muslims follow and worship a unique personal God. There are clear passages in the in the New Testament, where Jesus is confirming the Jewish conception of God. How do I know this? The Gospel of Mark chapter 12, verse 29, when a Jewish man comes to Jesus Christ asks him What is the first commandment or what is the most important

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commandment? Jesus tells him here, O Israel, the Lord our God is One Lord.

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Right, that's the famous Shema.

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So Jesus actually confirms the Jewish conception. Now, if Jesus was a Trinitarian, he meant to be a Trinitarian. Or he was a believer in in, in Trinitarian. This was the point where he should have thought that you hold on a second, you have always worshipped a universal God. But Jesus actually confirmed in the Gospel of john chapter eight, that you worship the Father, okay, the father glorifies me. The father glorifies me, of whom you the Jews say that he is your God, not the Trinity, the father universal, God of the Jews. So here Jesus tells this Jewish man, that hero, Israel, the Lord, our God is One Lord that you, the questioner can only imagine one person which is

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the Father. And then he turns around and he says, Master, you have spoken the truth, there is no one else beside him. So the Jewish man is speaking of the Father. Therefore, Jesus worshiped a unique personal God, not only that, he confirmed the Jewish unique personal conception of divinity, he was not a Trinitarian, this was his chance to tell the Jewish man, you have worship that unit, personal God, there are now there is a new covenant. I am the second person within the Trinity. And there is another one, the third person, the Holy Spirit. He didn't do that. He actually, if he was a Trinitarian, deceived the Jewish man, which a prophet of God, let alone God would never do. Muslims

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therefore, believe in one God who is unique, personal, not a trinity, not not a trinity, for that matter.

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So in john 17, three, Jesus goes further to confirm that Father is the only true God. In john 17. Three, this passage was a huge problem for church fathers writing in the, in the in the, in the third and the fourth century, they could not reconcile this verse with their binary terian or later Trinitarian view, they could not reconcile. In fact, Jerome actually twisted the words of this particular verse to suit his Trinitarian view. And we can discuss that in q&a F is brought up. So Muslims and Jesus are exactly the same in worshipping a unique personal God. Jesus never said, worship a trinity. I humbly challenge my friend, my dear friend, James White, Dr. James White,

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respectfully to come here and tell us where Jesus actually taught people or he himself worshiped our Trinitarian God.

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I am listening and I will be listening.

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He did not believe in Trinity Jesus did not believe in the Trinity and Muslims do not believe in the Trinity and Muslims. In fact, the Quran actually directly

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tells the Christian Christians to not believe in the Trinity because it has nothing to do with Jesus. Jesus never taught it. He never preached it. He never worshiped it. Where did you get the Trinity from? It came up in the fourth century it was finalized Finally, in the late fourth century, in the year 381. c, to be precise, after the the Council of Constantinople were three capitalization fathers had insisted, or by their works, or by the insistence, the third person in the Trinity was added later on to the creed of Nicea, which was established in 325 C. So the creative nicea is essentially buying aetherium even as late as 325, c 50 years later, in the year 381. The third

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person was added into the Trinity

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into the binary and it became a trinity of the three persons. Muslims therefore do not follow the Trinity because they do not believe it is something taught by the prophets, let alone God.

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So the commandments Jesus taught certain commandments in the book of Matthew chapter 19, verses 18 to 19. He said, You shall not murder you shall not commit adultery, you should not steal, you shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother. Also, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. We are told in Islamic literature Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, taught exactly the same principles that you can see on the screen. And that had these from Bukhari where the professor swear allegiance to me for not joining any thing in worship along with Allah not to steal, not to committed illegal sexual intercourse, not to kill your children, not to accuse an innocent person,

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not to be disobedient to do good deed, very, very similar. They resemble each other as brothers, Jesus, when you look at him, and when you look at Mohammed, they are brothers in one faith, they're teaching the same thing. Now we come to the question of the law. Jesus was a law abiding Jew, he followed the Jewish law. In fact, in the book of Matthew chapter, chapter five, verse 17, we are told that he upheld Think not that I've come to abolish the law rather have come to fulfill it. In other words, the law made certain prophecies about him and he came to fulfill

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those prophecies, and anyone who teaches others to go out to the law, even on a point will be considered least King in the kingdom. He is not from God. And Paul did exactly that, as we will see, in due course later on, right? Muslims uphold the law, Muslims follow the law, which came from God we believe the Quran was actually a confirmation of previous messages, previous laws, Quran came as a confirmation of the Torah. And this message came for humanity for the rest of the world. So in that Muslims are exactly the same as Jesus. Jesus was following a divine law. So do the Muslims. The Christians today do not follow the Mosaic law? They believe the law or the curse of the law was

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lifted by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Jesus was crucified on the cross, therefore the curse of the law was lifted. Right? And if that's the case, then either they are not following Jesus, or

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they are following someone else, which is Paul. Right. So Paul, on the law, what Christians follow today was taught by Paul, law is a curse. It cannot be followed. Therefore, it's a curse. So Paul, is the real prophet for Christians, not Jesus Christ, because Paul went against a lot of the teachings Jesus had put forward to his followers. So it is Paul, the Christians follow today. It is Paul who came up with this conception of the abolition of the law, and he was actually accused later on for doing so and he denied in the book of Acts, we are told in chapter 21, how much time I have got left three minutes. Thank you. I'm following your clock today. Okay, James. So in the book of

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Acts in chapter 21, we are told that Paul, was confronted by the Jerusalem Council who heads the Jerusalem Council. It is James, a direct disciple of Jesus Christ, not only a disciple, he was actually a brother of Jesus Christ. Now how he was a brother is another question altogether. theologians have grappled with this question for centuries. Was he a blood brother? Was he a cousin, but the New Testament calls James D brother, or a brother of Jesus Christ. And he was the head of the Jerusalem church, he had more authority than Paul did, because Paul is actually obeying the instructions of James in chapter 15, the book of Acts, we are told that Paul comes to James, to

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discuss the issue of the Gentiles coming to the way of the Christ. And now, the question I have is, if Jesus has died, and he has lifted the curse of the law,

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then why are the disciples in Jerusalem, years after Jesus died still following the law? Why are they still going through the temple and worshipping and following the law?

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And Paul was rightly accused by the Jewish followers of Jesus in Jerusalem for abolishing the law. How do we know this? This is happening in the book of Acts, chapter 21. Paul comes into the city of Jerusalem and the Jewish followers of Christ, are angry with him. How do you abolish the law? And then James tells Paul to go and practice the law in the temple, so that people know that this is a lie. But it was not a lie. Paul had indeed taught the abolition of the law, as we can see in these verses on the screen there, okay, Colossians 216, Romans 319, to 28 Colossians 310 Colossians 324 to 25. So Paul denied these accusations for some reason, and not only denied, he followed the

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instructions of James the leader of the Jerusalem church, and he went to the temple and did the rituals according to the law. Now, there are two options here for us, either Paul is a hypocrite who says one thing to the Gentiles and says another to the Jews, which is what he did. According to his own words, he said to a Jew or become a Jew or to a Gentile or become a Gentile. So Paul, in so many words, is telling people that he was a hypocrite. Right? How do we know this? He even deceived James. He should have told James Hold on a second. You know, Jesus died. Jesus has lifted the curse of the law. Why do I have to go to the temple and do all these rituals? The law has been lifted, the

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curse has been lifted. You know that James, you are a follower of Jesus. You believe in the same thing as as I do. But they clearly did not believe in the same thing. They clearly did not.

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How much time do you have? Zero. Time is up. Okay. So ladies and gentlemen, I will elaborate on this when I come back. Thank you so much for listening and

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I hope I did not hurt anyone's feelings. The point here is to share our view on Jesus Christ. And you may disagree with it. But this is why we believe in Jesus in the way we believe in him. Thank you so much for listening.

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Mike.

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Well, before I start my time, let me also thank very much

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non machine for being here this evening. He stepped in, we had other plans and other arrangements that had been made for a debate this evening. And those fell through the gentleman I was going to be interacting with was not able to do that. And then even after anon stepped in, then locations were problematic. And so I want to thank the folks here at Selhurst, evangelical church for opening their doors to us on very, very, very, very short notice. Thank you for making the trip out here. It is sometimes difficult to put these things together while traveling. This is toward the end of a lengthy trip. For for me, I was in the Netherlands last weekend speaking on very different subjects

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are speaking on now. And so I'm thankful to everybody who has especially Ashley who has helped to make this come together and anon for stepping up. And and doing this as well. Unfortunately, since it is toward the end of a lengthy trip, anything that I would have packed to give to someone other than non to begin with, would be have been destroyed in my in my bag by now. And so unfortunately, even though I started this tradition, do you know when I started this tradition, started this tradition with Shabbir Ali in 2006. And but sometimes when you're at the end of a very long trip, there's not much you could do about it but we'll have to we'll make up for it next time around with

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something that nonyl really love like maybe a football jersey or something like that. I don't know that seems to be all the all the rage right now. messy, you want one can you kick like him, but that was quite a quite a shot. That was amazing. Anyways, so with. With that, let me begin my my time. Thank you very much again for being here this evening. And this is an important topic, and it's not one I've ever heard debated before, and obviously can go a lot of different directions, not just touched on at least eight different topics that could be a debate unto themselves. But I think it's important for us to consider when we ask the question, who is like Jesus? What do we mean when we

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say that? Well, anon has given his perspective. Now I would like to give my own if we want to simply talk about outward appearances. If we want to talk about things that would, for example, be derived from living in a submitted culture in antiquity, even though

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you know exactly when the Quran was written in the New Testament taking place. There's a half Millennium in between but but still, if we were simply looking at things like that dietary laws and the things that would be associated with life in antiquity, then obviously, we have to recognize that the question would be does the New Testament teach us to be like Jesus in those things, and one of the differences between Christianity and Islam is that the gospel message is meant to go out to every nation, it does not bring a particular cultural aspect to it, such as clothing, or dietary laws, or things like that. It is meant to be a message that will go to all nations at all times. And

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as such, we are not called to dress like Jesus or eat like Jesus. In fact, the New Testament writers give very little evidence of having any interest in such things. Even though in the Hadith, you have tremendous amount of information about how many dates Mohammed would want to eat and, and the odd number rather than the even number and all sorts of details like that. New Testament writers show no interest in any of that. And the reason for that is that they did not believe that Christianity is something that is to be passed on that will have some type of cultural normativity. There are moral and ethical laws and principles, but they must be applied in whatever situation the church finds

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itself in. And so why are we really even debating this particular subject because Christianity does not make a claim. The Christians are supposed to look outwardly like Jesus.

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Or behave like him in a cultural context. If in fact, I would ask our Muslim friends, if Jesus is but a Rosell of a law and only a renewal of a law in other words, that that that section sort of for 171, specifically is denying that there is anything beyond that calling that would mark Jesus, because that's the same section that says, Do not say three so on and so forth. If he's merely a Rasool of Allah, why are we even here tonight? Why are we even talking about emulating someone? I mean, from the Muslim perspective, Jesus was just the, the Jewish Messiah, he was not the Messiah for all people. He was just the Jewish Messiah. So why would we even be discussing something like

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this? Now, it is interesting to me that not had just said, Well, you know, we have a different view of Christ, we have the Quranic view of Christ. But I would like to suggest to you, that you are dependent upon the New Testament, for most of what you just said about Jesus, because the Quran only mentions the name 25 times, maybe just 100 times total references, you're given very, very little information about Jesus, it's plain that the author of the Quran assumes that his readers are going to be familiar with the New Testaments testimony about Jesus. And so nothing is given. There's only one place in all the Quran where Jesus speaks from identifiable historical location, and that's his

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cradle. And that comes from non canonical sources, not from the New Testament sources itself. So the the background material from the Islamic perspective is dependent on the New Testament at a nonce presentation, quoted from the Gospels quoted even from the Gospel of john, why, because we have to, that's the only way we can know anything about Jesus. These sources tell us many ways in which we cannot emulate Jesus. For example, Muslims cannot emulate him and raising the dead or being virgin born both things that are specifically affirmed of Jesus's capacities and abilities. Christians cannot emulate him in being eternally glorious, in the presence of the father is reread only a

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matter of one sentence after the text that anon quoted from john 17 three, you have john 17, five, where Jesus shows that he is aware of his glorious pre existence in the presence of the father before the world was. So here is one person speaking to another person, speaking of the time in eternity, when those two persons were co glorious, in eternity past, that's comes right after Jesus's words of john 17, three. So whatever you do with 17, three, you've got to understand what else is said in the rest of the gospel of john, so Christians cannot emulate him and being eternally glorious as the Father, we cannot be the Son of God, he is identified as the Son of God in each of

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the Gospels, and not just a son of God, as if God has sons by the tons as someone used to like to say, but the unique Son of God, so much so that when he used that terminology himself in john chapter five, the Jews picked up stones to stone him they wanted, both on five and john 10. And john eight happened a number of times, because of the uniqueness of the claim that Jesus made to be the Son of God, what is more, we cannot emulate him in bearing the very Divine Name your way Yaqui Jesus is identified as Yahweh in john chapter 12. JOHN says that I say I saw Jesus in Isaiah chapter six, you go back to Isaiah chapter six, who was it that Isaiah saw, he saw your way, the early followers

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of Jesus, who wrote the New Testament repeatedly identified Jesus with the one Divine Name, the specific Divine Name, much more specific than than what you have in Eloy Ilana. Suboxone in your way is the divine covenant name of God. And it is used of Jesus we cannot emulate him in doing that we cannot emulate him in having a people to worship us. But Jesus in Mark chapter 14, verses 61 through 64, his trial quotes from the Old Testament. And when we look back at the text that he's quoting, it's talking about that situation and Daniel, where there is one who's brought before the Ancient of Days, and he is worshipped by his people. He has the people who worship Him, given the highest form

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of worship, and so we cannot be worshipped. We have not been worshipped in heaven we are not to be worshipped on Earth. Jesus accepted the worship of his disciples and others while on

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On Earth, something that there is no way that the Islamic Jesus would ever accept. Because if you accept the thesis, that Jesus actually worshipped a universal or Unitarian God, then Jesus would never allow himself to be worshipped. Jesus would never allow Thomas to say to him, My Lord and my God, and then Jesus says to him, now that you've seen me have you believe Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed no rebuke of Thomas, instead, recognition of the fact that Thomas is speaking in faith. Likewise, we cannot be the object of prayer that Jesus was in john chapter 14, in talking about going back into the presence of the Father, he talks about how, after that having

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happened, we can ask him anything in his name, and he will do it directed to him has to be in the form of prayer, the early Christians were identified in First Corinthians is those who call upon the name of the Lord, specifically, in that context, Jesus. And while Jesus said, all authority in heaven and earth was given to him, we are not given that authority in any way, shape, or form. And so there are many ways in which the biblical Jesus is someone that we cannot emulate, because of the fact that he is more than just a man, he is a true man. There is no question that he took on flesh, the word took on flesh, but he cannot be limited solely to those categories. But we are in fact, to

00:36:31--> 00:37:25

emulate him and calling upon God as Father, just as he did. It is a tremendous privilege to call upon God as Father. And yet my Muslim friends do not believe that Jesus ever prayed in this way. How could he use that kind of terminology, that is inappropriate terminology for anyone to use in regards to a law to refer to him as father. But Jesus did this over and over and over again, and in and through him, not because of anything in ourselves, but because of who we are in him. We have the tremendous privilege of being able to pray to God as to our Father, we do so trusting that Jesus has, in fact, revealed the father to us perfectly as no one else could possibly do. He's called the

00:37:25--> 00:38:10

exact representation of his person. That's how we can have absolute confidence of who God the Father is an absolute confidence of his love for us, because he has revealed himself in Jesus Christ, there is no arbitrariness, in regards to our understanding of whether God will be will be will fulfill His promises to us. We have the promises of Jesus Christ, we are called to trust in God as Jesus did in the cross, when he said, Father, into your hands, I commit my spirit, our Muslim friends don't believe that ever took place. And I believe Jesus never said those words, because there was no cross or at least most Muslims, I've debated a few Muslims who have varying views on that, but the vast

00:38:10--> 00:38:31

majority of Muslims in the world do not believe that that ever took place. And yet here we have the very central aspect of every gospel, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and john, what is the focus of every single one of them, they're all taking us to the cross, the very center point of history and there,

00:38:32--> 00:38:45

Jesus says, Father into your hands, I commit my spirit. And that, of course, is what every believing Christian can say, at their dying moment as well. Father into your hands, I can I commit my spirit.

00:38:47--> 00:39:28

That is because of the finished work that he has provided there on the cross. We are called to fulfill the greatest commandments love God with all your heart, soul, mind, strength, and love your neighbors yourself, because in that Jesus thought, all the law is fulfilled. So we do have a law. In fact, the New Testament speaks of the law of Christ. The issue is we do not take a singular law, and then attempt to apply it without any type of differentiation from culture, to culture, to culture, we take overarching principles, and then we have to deal with them. And I'm glad that's the case. Today, we're dealing with genetic engineering and nuclear war, and all sorts of things like that.

00:39:28--> 00:40:00

And we need to have something like the law of Christ, that we are able to apply beyond merely the scope of the ancient world into the modern world in which we live. God knew the world was going to be like this. He gives us those in depth principles within that context. They see I think one of the things were very helpful for us this evening. In Islam, Jesus is a disciple of a law he's able to resolve but he is one who follows a law he

00:40:00--> 00:40:00

submits to life.

00:40:03--> 00:40:57

Jesus is a disciple of a lot in Christianity. Jesus is the very embodiment of God in human flesh, the eternal Son, who took on a perfect human nature. Hence, our call is not resemblance with a fellow disciple. But our call is being disciples of Jesus Himself. So the relationship is not supposed to be one merely of resemblance, it is supposed to be one of following. And Jesus Himself taught that in the Gospel of Mark chapter eight. And I want to direct you if you do have a Bible to Mark chapter eight, after the revelation to Peter, that Jesus is the Christ, as recorded in Matthew, the Son of the living God, Jesus instructs the disciples not to tell anyone this yet it's that time

00:40:57--> 00:41:36

had not yet come, then you have the situation where Jesus from that time begins to teach that it was necessary to go to Jerusalem, it'd be betrayed, that he'd be killed and rise again the third day. This is a central part of the gospel message itself. And Paul, a Peter, I'm sorry, it tries to rebuke Jesus Jesus rebukes Peter says, Get behind Me, you're minding the things of men rather than the things of God. And then in verse 34, I want you to hear what happens because Jesus calls the crowd who himself is not there, just Crowder, he actually gathers the crowd.

00:41:37--> 00:41:48

And he calls them to himself together with his disciples. And he says them if you wish to follow after me.

00:41:49--> 00:42:19

If you wish to fall off, if not, if you wish to follow after God, if you wish to follow after me, Jesus, as he did so often in the New Testament. So often in the gospels, he places himself in the center, and says, if you would follow after me, you must do something, you must deny yourself and do what, take up the cross and follow me take up his cross, he says, If anyone does this, he must take up his cross,

00:42:20--> 00:42:23

and follow after me deny yourself,

00:42:24--> 00:42:27

put your desires and your dreams.

00:42:29--> 00:42:37

They're done away with. Because you see, if you say to anyone in this day, take up your cross, they all know what you mean.

00:42:38--> 00:42:41

Jesus is saying, if you want to be my disciple,

00:42:42--> 00:42:51

you must join the death march. And everybody had seen it, especially there in Jerusalem. The Romans had been Romans were good at keeping people in subjection.

00:42:53--> 00:43:02

And they had lined the roads in Judea with crosses, when there had been rebellions in the past. And you had seen that horrible, horrific way of dying.

00:43:03--> 00:43:07

And so Jesus, Jesus is not using

00:43:08--> 00:43:13

sweets and cake and money to get people to follow him.

00:43:14--> 00:43:17

He is saying, if you want to be my disciple,

00:43:18--> 00:43:28

you must deny yourself die to the old way of life, and join the Death March. The Death March, which was so shameful,

00:43:29--> 00:43:35

was so shameful, you must take up your cross.

00:43:36--> 00:43:44

That's the only way you can follow me. Now notice that this is right in the section where he's saying, I must go to Jerusalem, and I must be killed.

00:43:46--> 00:43:49

I must be buried and rise again the third day.

00:43:50--> 00:43:52

So we know what he's talking about here.

00:43:54--> 00:44:06

He says, Whoever whoever desires to save his life or literally his soul, will lose it but whoever loses his soul what for me, and what am i gospel?

00:44:07--> 00:44:10

For me and my gospel. He will say that

00:44:11--> 00:44:13

the folks it's just right here

00:44:14--> 00:44:17

that we have to get serious with each other.

00:44:18--> 00:44:19

Very serious with each other.

00:44:21--> 00:44:23

I really liked this guy over here.

00:44:24--> 00:44:26

When we first met,

00:44:27--> 00:44:29

you seemed a little angry.

00:44:31--> 00:44:35

That's because he was used to speaker's corner. And speaker's corner does things to you.

00:44:38--> 00:44:44

But then in Dublin, Ireland, I insisted between two debates that we did, that we have lunch together.

00:44:45--> 00:44:48

And all sudden odd non found out that I'm a human being.

00:44:50--> 00:44:59

And I happen to be a human being who does what I do because I really believe that what I'm saying is true. And to the Muslim people. I actually love you

00:45:01--> 00:45:11

And you may disagree with me, you may say, Well, you misrepresent us. But you know, I'm not trying to, I am trying to be accurate in my representations as much as I can to show respect for you.

00:45:13--> 00:45:20

And yet we keep doing debates. And the world says, Well, if you really liked each other, you'd stop debating No.

00:45:22--> 00:45:29

What I believe and what odd non believes are not the same thing. There is no way to take these two positions and meld them into chrislam.

00:45:32--> 00:45:37

That would be tremendously disrespectful to what you believe and tremendously disrespectful to what I believe.

00:45:38--> 00:45:46

Sir, 112 is three. If it's right, I'm wrong. If it's wrong, then I'm right. I think that's why I put it.

00:45:47--> 00:45:59

There's no way there's no way to put these two things together. I wish it were not the case. But if you love someone, you will tell them the truth. That's what our society doesn't understand anymore.

00:46:00--> 00:46:01

We're not allowed to do that anymore.

00:46:03--> 00:46:06

And so why are we here? Here's the most important thing.

00:46:07--> 00:46:10

Jesus identifies what it means to follow him.

00:46:12--> 00:46:16

And Jesus says, if you will be my disciple,

00:46:17--> 00:46:22

you must deny yourself and take up your cross.

00:46:24--> 00:46:27

There's one ayah in the Quran, sir, for 187.

00:46:29--> 00:46:32

That keeps you from being able to do that if you're a Muslim.

00:46:35--> 00:46:36

Where'd that idea come from?

00:46:38--> 00:46:46

Now, we've done debates on the cross, I believe there was one that Samuel green was the one who did debate recently, I've done debates on the cross, the number of people, even here in London,

00:46:48--> 00:46:49

will do more in the future.

00:46:51--> 00:47:00

But the point is that in Jesus's own words, to truly be a disciple of him, you must be willing to die with him.

00:47:02--> 00:47:06

That is not the type of language a mere what as who uses.

00:47:08--> 00:47:30

That's what every true Christian, not just the Christian got baptized as a baby and things that are Christian. The person who has truly made a commitment to Jesus Christ dies to self and takes up the cross. That's the only way we can be made like him, is to follow his own words. Thank you for your attention.

00:48:33--> 00:48:35

10 minutes, 10 minutes.

00:48:37--> 00:48:37

Okay.

00:48:40--> 00:49:26

Thank you very much, James, for that passionate sermon. I always like James preaching is a very eloquent preacher. He has been telling Christians how to follow Jesus. He didn't quite explain how Christians today actually resemble historic Jesus. Let me quickly explain. He's right that it took me a while to see him as a human, not as someone who is out there to spread hate against Muslims, because I thought James is just like other Christian apologists, missionaries around the world, a lot of whom are spreading hate against Islam and Muslims actively. They are part of the Islamophobia industry. Some of those people have have have actually attacked James, for doing the amazing work he

00:49:26--> 00:49:59

is doing for his people, James, and myself, are a victims of extremists. And thankfully, we are not extremists. This is why we are here to talk with love and compassion so that our people can see that not every single Christian or Muslim apologists or debaters or scholars, or activists are the same. There are people who want to have peace in this world who want to share a shared love and compassion. And therefore I want to tell you, ladies and gentlemen, brothers and sisters that I love you all the reason why I'm here today

00:50:00--> 00:50:41

is because I love the Christians, I want the Christians to see our viewpoint. I want to live this barrier that has been created by hateful individuals out there online so that you can see what the Muslim perspective perspective is from the Muslims. So what did James talk about? James talked about a lot of things and he did not address obviously, that was his opening statement. So I cannot really hold him accountable on that. But there are many points I raised, and I was directly addressing the topic resemblance, how do we actually resemble Jesus Christ? Right? Is it only outward ritual ritual, ritualistic resemblance? Do we only resemble Jesus in dress code, how he had a beard and how

00:50:41--> 00:51:27

you will walk around like a Muslim looking like a Muslim? No, it has more to do with inward resemblance, which is belief I talked about a Jesus did not worship a Trinitarian. God, James actually confirmed that he was talking to the Father. Why do the Muslims use except that language, because we believe things done previously were allowed, for example, the Muslims believe prostration to important people, in the previous laws and regulations allowed, for example, the family of Joseph bow to him it is now Haram in Islam. Therefore, to use the word Father, for God Almighty is not allowed in Islam, but it was allowed for the previous generations, previous prophets, they could use

00:51:27--> 00:52:07

these words, because people understood the context they knew. But later on the term father was misunderstood by Greek philosophers and Hellenistic thinkers who basically painted the word father in a very different light. And they started to claim that Jesus and the father of the same were of the same essence, are not going to indulge in a lot of things God James talked about when he preached about how, you know, you must carry the cross and follow Jesus in death and all of that I'm not going to go because that's not the topic. Today's topic is resemble. How do the Christians resemble Jesus, historic Jesus in beliefs? Most importantly, not entirely, not particularly, or

00:52:07--> 00:52:53

specifically in rituals? I have clarified already that we pray like Jesus, we the Muslims pray like Jesus, Christians don't write we fast like him. We are certain I mean, we are men circumcised like him, because he was circumcised, right. And we do not eat swine. We don't consume swine meat. Jesus did not do that. Jesus followed the law. And we follow the divine law. The law of Jesus was not the law of Christ, which was later on, conceived by Christians, the law of Jesus was the Mosaic Law. That was the law. He was talking about in chapter five of the book of Matthew, when he talked about the law, he was talking about the Mosaic Law, he was not talking about a new law or, or another law,

00:52:53--> 00:53:34

when he said, I have come to fulfill the law, he was talking about the Mosaic Law. What happened to the Mosaic Law, it is Paul, who came later and gave Christians what they believe in today. If you put the writings of Paul on the one side, what he said in his epistles, 13 of his epistles, and the rest of the New Testament books on the other side, what the gospel authors are talking about, saying about Jesus, you will see a direct contradiction. In some cases, you will see there is a conflict. Jesus is telling his disciples to follow the law, the commandments if you want, if you want salvation, Paul comes along, and he tells us know, the law has been abolished. Then James comes

00:53:34--> 00:54:11

along, and James condemns Paul, James states that there is no faith without works. And this conflict is not actually detected by the Muslims. Muslims do not have any interest in highlighting these problems. In the Bible, we have the Quran. James, he mentioned something very interesting, very important, and why are we even looking into the New Testament? The reason I as a Muslim is pointing out these things in the New Testament is because you are Christians. You do not believe in the Quran. I want to show you from your scriptures that Jesus resembles Muslims more than he resembles you.

00:54:12--> 00:54:58

If you are not worshiping like him, believing like him, or doing things like him, then how are you actually following historic Jesus? You are following Paul, every single thing you believe in on Jesus is, has come to you through the lens of Paul, you are reading into the life of Jesus through the lens of Paul, remove Paul, who's Paul, by the way, Paul is someone who never met Jesus never knew him in person. You have put all your belief in one basket, the vision he had on the road to Damascus, and you have completely ignored the actual disciples of Jesus Christ, the ones who lived with him, ate with him, talked with him, walked with Him. People like James what is James saying in

00:54:58--> 00:54:59

his epistle, if you will

00:55:00--> 00:55:45

All the epistles of Paul 13 of them, what when you see the person of Christ, not the teachings of Christ, when you read one epistle, the Epistle of James is all about the teachings of Christ. Every single thing James is talking about is to do with Christ, what he taught what he did. So James is more for looking like Christ, doing like Christ and being like Christ, rather than Paul, ignoring Christ, and following his view on Christ, which is actually very inconsistent with the view of Christ, according to the Christ Himself. So this is very important for you to look into. And why am I pointing out these inconsistencies? Because when you look at the evidence, you see that in the

00:55:45--> 00:56:33

book of Acts, chapter 21, James, who had the authority which Paul himself acknowledges, Paul, in the book of Colossians, acknowledges that James is the most important person from the followers of Jesus Christ, to an extent that Paul himself goes to James, to get matters fixed. Who is James? Why is Paul going to James, why is Paul even listening to James? Why? Because James is very important. Very, very important. James is not teaching any of that James didn't talk about the divinity of Christ, nothing on the Trinity, nothing on the abolition of the law, or law being a curse. Rather, James is a law abiding Jew, who followed the Christ who believed in the Christ. He clearly had

00:56:33--> 00:57:08

different views from Paul. So Christians today are actually following Paul, they are imitating Paul, they resemble Paul, not Jesus Christ. As I have already clarified. Coming to the beliefs. I asked a very specific question from James, James came and did a lot of beautiful preaching, which is fine. This is a church. This is what he's supposed to be doing. But my job is to highlight the in consistencies, where is the inconsistency? If Jesus is worshiping the father, clearly in the New Testament? Why is he not worshiping at Trinity?

00:57:09--> 00:57:53

What What is it teaching his disciples? Why is he deceiving his disciples? If he is a Trinitarian, he should be telling his disciples, there is a trinity in the heavens, and we worship that Trinity. Why is he worshiping uni personal God, a unique personal God called the father called the Ilaha? Right? Why is Jesus worshipping that unique personal God is a very important question, in that most importantly, and this is something inward. This has to do with belief, not outward rituals. I agree with James that if you outwardly look like someone doesn't necessarily mean that you are like that person, or you are following that person. I agree. But how are the Christians following Jesus today?

00:57:54--> 00:58:39

How are they following Jesus? If they believe in the Trinity, Jesus never taught a trinity? Never worship the Trinity never preached it? Why are the Christians following or worshipping a trinity? It's a very important question. Jesus was a strict monotheists, who worshipped a unique personal God. That means one person, one being the Father, and He taught his companions that his disciples that as confirmed by James himself. So ladies and gentlemen, I really want you to contemplate on not only outward resemblance of Jesus, also the inward resemblance of Jesus when it comes to beliefs, what beliefs did Jesus hold on divinity, and on following the law, thank you so much for listening.

00:59:21--> 00:59:34

The real problem with debates like this is you get 10 minutes to respond to 20 minutes what the other guy said. There's a problem with that. It takes you longer to respond to things than it does to make assertions but let me just get to a few important things.

00:59:35--> 01:00:00

It was said that my preaching on what Jesus said in Mark chapter eight was not on the topic tonight. It is the topic tonight, when Jesus defines what it is to be his followers to be like him to be one of those who believe what he has to say to hold his beliefs. When Jesus lays it out. The way he does, it is impossible for a Muslim to

01:00:00--> 01:00:37

Believe. And we were told, well, you know, we're just only use a New Testament tonight because you're Christians. And so we're showing you where the inconsistency these are. The problem is I would like to challenge on non tell us something about what Jesus said or did without using the New Testament. All you have are a couple of disjointed a historical statements in the Quran, you've got nothing, you have nothing that's from any identifiable historical place in the Quran. And even then you're talking about 600 years down the road without a shred of historical evidence that goes back to the first century. You are dependent upon the New Testament. The problem is you then have to pick

01:00:37--> 01:01:23

and choose what of the New Testament you're going to believe. Now, there's a lot said about Paul, interestingly enough, and those who are watching this will mention, you know what the topic I wanted to get for the debate for a debate for this trip? Was Paul, a true apostle, the Lord Jesus Christ? I'm coming back in November. Let's make it happen. Because I will defend that and I will demonstrate it from the text of Scripture. The statements made about Paul, especially as understanding of law I'm sorry, are just misguided. They do not understand Paul's unders. He Himself said in Romans chapter three, after he says we're justified by faith, do we then do away with the law? No, we

01:01:23--> 01:02:05

established the law. He said the law was good. It's the law of God, you just have to understand what the purpose of the law was, is to show us our sin and drive us to a savior. Once you understand that, then you understand that so much of the accusation against Paul simply does not follow. Now we were told that Jesus teach taught a universal God, how does that work? If Now again, the only way you can make this work is if you cut up the New Testament in departments, you accept one part of a book and another part of another book, you reject another part in other parts, so on so forth, but I'm not quoting from john chapter eight. So let's go with just john chapter eight. How does Jesus

01:02:05--> 01:02:35

identify himself in john chapter eight. First of all, he identifies the father is the one who has sent him. He also says that he always does the will of the Father. And he also says that unless you believe that Eggo I, me, I am, you will die in your sins, john 824. At the end of the chapter, he says, before Abraham was Eggo, me, I am. And the Jews picked up stones to stone him. Now,

01:02:36--> 01:03:22

who believes Jesus's words Christians, or Muslims? Muslims don't believe he said those words. So how can you quote from john chapter eight, and then take out the parts that clearly state, something that is directly opposed to the conclusions of the Quran, you can't do that. And so when it is asserted, universal God, Jesus identifies the father, as a distinct person from himself. And yet he identifies himself as the father as having the one glory of God. He is worshipped by the disciples, when Thomas calls him, my my Lord, and my God, he does not rebuke him. In Matthew, after his resurrection, the disciples worship Him, He does not rebuke them. This is consistent with everything

01:03:22--> 01:04:15

else that goes on into the text of Paul and x and the other New Testament writers. And let me just give you one example. Some people will say, Well, you know, I don't know that we can really trust what john has to say, I prefer a more primitive gospel. Okay. Gospel of Mark, chapter 14, the trial of Jesus. When Jesus is asked, I have jury you, are you the Christ, the Son of the living God? How does Jesus respond? The first words out of his mouth are echo Imy, the same words he uttered in Johnny 24 and a 58, by the way, I am, and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of power, and coming with the clouds of heaven. Jesus takes two citations, one from Psalm 110, the

01:04:15--> 01:04:24

other from Daniel, he puts them together, every intertestamental Jew, every Jew in the first century, knew exactly what those texts were about.

01:04:25--> 01:04:44

And if you go back to Daniel and look at that text, the one who appears before the Ancient of Days, his worship, highest level of worship by his own people, Jesus is identifying himself with this heavenly being, not a mere Rasool of surah, four 171.

01:04:46--> 01:04:59

And how did the Jews understand this? The chief priest, he tears his clothing and he says, What further evidence do we need? You've heard the what the blasphemy yourself

01:05:01--> 01:05:08

And God doesn't go Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you misunderstood. I'm just a mirror rule. I'm just pointing you to a law. That's not what happens.

01:05:09--> 01:05:12

Jesus does this purposefully.

01:05:14--> 01:05:47

If that's the case, then where do you get this universal God, you have to accept everything that the New Testament teaches. And so when Jesus can identify the father is a distinct person from himself. And yet except worship, when both the father is identified as Yaqui, Jesus identified as Yahweh, the Spirit is the Spirit of gotway. When Jesus can say baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, that is not baptizing in the name of a law, a mirrored Azul, and the angel gibreel.

01:05:48--> 01:06:36

There is one name, and three person sharing that one name sounds like the old the doctrine of the Trinity, which we find in the earliest Christian writers, not three at one ad. But if you go look at Ignatius, the Bishop of Antioch, on his way to martyrdom in Rome in 107, or 108 ad, not only does he identify Jesus as God, at least 10 times in his genuine letters, he also uses illustrations of the Trinity there, does he use the term Trinity? No, but he talks about the Father, the Son and the spirit together in ways that definitely demonstrate their unity as the object of his worship. That's another subject we could get into. I've taught church history since 1990. And so it'd be a good one

01:06:36--> 01:06:40

to get into. And so when it comes to beliefs,

01:06:41--> 01:06:43

I simply ask if

01:06:45--> 01:06:49

I asked every Muslim person and every Christian person in this audience,

01:06:50--> 01:07:04

when Thomas sees Jesus, and Jesus says, Do not be unbelieving, but believe, shows him the wounds of an act that you as a Muslim, don't believe ever happened.

01:07:06--> 01:07:06

Because of

01:07:08--> 01:07:13

one 140 word I have written over 600 years after the events,

01:07:14--> 01:07:25

all all of the first century material, and everything from 100 years after that period of time, says the same thing Jesus Christ died under Pontius Pilate and across every bit of it.

01:07:27--> 01:07:28

But you reject that for something

01:07:29--> 01:07:36

600 years later, that has no historical background to it. But Jesus appears poor Thomas.

01:07:38--> 01:07:49

And Thomas looks at him and says, How could he ask mukai? How fast? My Lord and my God, what should Jesus have done? If surah? Four 171 is true?

01:07:52--> 01:08:00

Sir, for 171 do not say three, Jesus is a mere Rasool a mere apostle assent, one of the law,

01:08:01--> 01:08:02

nothing more than that.

01:08:03--> 01:08:10

Do not say of a law or anything but the truth they'll go into excess is what sir, for 171 says, Look it up. I'm not misrepresenting you.

01:08:12--> 01:08:15

If that is the case, what should Jesus have said,

01:08:16--> 01:08:46

there should have been an immediate review, just as there was in the book of Revelation, when john bowed down to the angel who had shown him all these incredible things. When john bows down to worship the angels, he says, Do not do that. I am merely a fellow servant of God, worship god alone. That's what Jesus his duty would have been in Jesus's responses, because you've seen me have you believe Thomas blesser, those who have not seen him yet have believed?

01:08:50--> 01:08:50

So

01:08:52--> 01:08:54

I do think this is the issue.

01:08:56--> 01:09:19

Will we follow Jesus's own teaching? Is that how we become like him? Well, if we're going to be consistent, then that's what we need to do. I didn't have time to get into Mosaic Law and things like that just touched on those things. Very, very briefly, obviously, good topics for future debates, as long as I will still be allowed into England after next few years. Thank you for your attention.

01:09:26--> 01:10:00

So it's my turn first. So this is the crossfires part of the debate, where we actually ask each other questions for five minutes each. It's my turn to ask questions. And I will keep it as short as brief as possible. So, James, coming back to the the two main points I raised about inward resemblance of Jesus because outward, you don't seem to make a big deal out of it. outward resemblance is not as important as inward resemblance.

01:10:00--> 01:10:00

In your view,

01:10:02--> 01:10:06

I can somewhat agree with you. But again in outward is very important also,

01:10:07--> 01:10:24

worshipping like Jesus, like prostration is very important. Christians don't do that today. They have historically to my knowledge trinitarians in particular trinitarians have never worshipped God like that. I mean, to my knowledge, maybe there are exceptions, but sorry. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, coming to that. So

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if trinitarians did not worship God, the Father or the Trinity by prostrating, how are the Trinitarian is actually imitating or resembling Jesus Christ in worship. I didn't get to respond to the prostration stuff. Each one of the examples you gave were unusual examples. For example, the high priestly prayer of Jesus, the example of Jesus's prayer to the Father in john chapter 17. He lifted up his eyes to heaven, he was not frustrated at all. So there is no singular bodily orientation. That is that is demanded the examples you gave from the Old Testament regards to like the ordination of priests and things like that. But there's your consistency. I'm sorry. There's

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your consistency, all the prophets that we know have prayed like that. And so did Jesus. I don't I don't I don't think that's the case at all. Well, you don't you don't know. I just gave you an example of where Jesus didn't pray like that. Yeah, I'm talking about when he did pray like, yeah, it is we you are free to adopt any bodily position. It is not something that is demanded you have to prosper. So there are Christians who pray in every bodily because I understand that. I'm saying Jesus was very consistent with previous prophets. With the Old Testament examples I gave from Genesis from first Chronicles from the book of Daniel's as well, their example, David prayed like

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that. David, Daniel, Abraham, Moses, Aaron, the priest did not though. For example, if you look at how he's also prayed like that, but say yes, but there is no command that they were to prostrate in the offering of sacrifices or any of the things that situations and how do you resemble someone in so worship? Well, by worshipping the same God, they did? The way they did it, right? No, it doesn't have to be the way they did that. I've never I think it'd be very distracting to most of us, we tried to worship God in this place to the smell of sacrifices, but do you not see there is a consistency and prostration Do not you don't see that? Okay, I'll leave it there then. No problem.

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Okay. Next question I have is, Jesus, we Muslims resemble Jesus strikingly, in, in our belief, we worship a unique personal God, Jesus, whenever he worship God, in the New Testament, he worshipped his unique personal God called the Father. So why did the Christians worship the Trinity when Jesus did not? I just just gave the answer that in my in my closing statement, it is allowing all that the New Testament teaches all the Gospels teach, you cannot come to the conclusion when Jesus says glorify me Father, was the glory which I had in your presence before the world began. How do you take that? And say that Jesus did not exist as a glorified as a glorified object of the worship of

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the angelic creatures and eternity paths? Great. So why is Jesus playing these games? Why is he not coming out straight and saying, I am part of the Trinity. The Holy Spirit is also part of the Trinity father is part of the Trinity worship the Trinity. Why is Jesus playing these indirect vague games with his followers? Why does he like the Father 1000s of places in the in the Old Testament?

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Let's keep it succinct. Yeah, I believe God has the right to reveal His truth in the timing that he desires to do so. And so there, here's here's where you and I disagree even though I it's very plain, but James, the same thing would do in a sentence we're doing, but you're demanding the timing in which there is going to be revelation, I'm saying no, until the exaltation of the sun, why reveal something that will not be able to be understood by people? until until the Holy Spirit has been poured out upon the church? How can you even begin to explain, but Jesus could easily tell his disciples in the future, this conception of the Divinity will be clarified. So there will be three

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people you will have to worship three persons within one being, what is one sentence, if it's so important? Is that the alarm?

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Pretty song too, but sorry about that. But can I very, very quickly if I answer I'm just very, very briefly. You're making a you're basically saying God

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has to reveal these things on my timetable rather than allowing God to do it in his timetable. And I would argue that there are certain things in the Quran and Islamic theology that flow along the same lines need to be consistent. Okay. But your time, my time.

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Okay, so let's, let's go back to it does seem that we are focusing in upon the key issue, that to be like someone is to believe what they themselves teach, right? Also, outwardly as well as inwardly, which is belief? Yes. Okay. So, could you answer the question that I gave to the audience? What should Jesus have said to Thomas? In john, one? Very good question. I think Jesus did make a correction, when someone called him good. And he said, Why do you call me good? When no one is good, but God, in this verse, we get a clear answer from Jesus that he is saying to his followers, he is not God, because he actually separated himself from the notion of being God in any shape or form. If

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he was God, as you claimed he was, then this was the point to say, Yes, I'm good, because I'm God. Right? But he makes that distinction. What he might have said to Thomas, we don't know what Thomas actually said, in what language Thomas said that to him. Again, the language is very important. Moses is called God. Do you believe Moses, God, Moses called God? In the Old Testament, in the book of Exodus, chapter seven, verse one, Moses is God to Pharaoh, right. Now, what do you mean by God? Here is another question. Yeah. Okay. So you, you're not, do you believe that this encounter actually took place and john 20 at all? Okay, my view on the Old Testament. I didn't say the Old

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Testament said, john, john, the New Testament, sorry, the New Testament, I believe the new we don't as Muslims who don't need the new testament to know anything about Jesus. We believe in Jesus because of the Koran, right? So we believe there are many things in the New Testament that are dubious, and there are many things that are definitely from God. Originally, they came from Revelation, Jesus definitely said those things. For example, here, O Israel, the Lord our God is One Lord, we believe that we believe those are the words of Jesus. But other things, other people saying, How do we know when you cited the text where Jesus is speaking to the rich young ruler? You

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understood that to be Jesus saying, I'm not God? Right? Just now, I have no problem in accepting that those are the words of Jesus. Yeah. Okay. And you understand Jesus to be saying there, I'm not God. So that means Jesus was saying, I'm not good. You're telling me what he means, then what do you tell me? I mean, I can't do that. I

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know, I'd be happy to tell you, I'll do it. My closing statement. How's that? But my my point is, I want it to be made clear. You have an interpretation of that text. That would fundamentally be Jesus saying, I am not good. Right? No, that's not my understanding. This is humility on the part of Jesus, which he himself taught his companions like the example of the Pharisees and the tax collector, the Pharisees saying, I will, I will prosper twice a week, the tax collector collect, the tax collector is not even looking at the heavens, and he's saying, God, I'm a sinner, forgive me, God, I'm a sinner, forgive me. This is the same message we get from Mohammed as well where he was

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asked, Why do you even ask for worship? He says, shall I not be a thankful servant of Allah? Shall I not even be thankful? Because Allah has given me such a high status. So this is the humility of Jesus as a prophet as a messenger of God. So is it is it possible that what's going on with rich young ruler is that Jesus is in fact identifying himself as God and the return ruler doesn't see it. He's the very one that gave him the law that the return ruler is pretending to follow. I don't think Jesus claims to be God, anywhere, directly or indirectly, anywhere in the New Testament. Christians have to use insinuations, inferences from other people, or other statements that are not clear, even

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ego me is not clear. Okay, what does it prove? It proves that Jesus is pre existent. He has eternally existed, how does that prove his God? I believe I have pre existed in the knowledge of God. God knew Adnan Rashid will be born once and in the future, James White will be debating him on the 20 sorry, What's the date today? So second session, second of May.

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So this has existed in God's knowledge, eternally God news. So when Jesus says, before Abraham was born, I am you insert in that somewhere? I am in the four knowledge of god yes. 100%. That's that's how I understand it. Why did the Jews pick up stones to stone and because they would have believed that about everybody? Good question. Good question. And when they did pick up the stones, how did Jesus

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Defendant stuff, does it not say in your law that you are sons of God, and I'm

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sorry, that's john, john 10. But similar incident where Jews pick up stones to stone him, right? And Jesus responds by saying that I am only claiming to be the Son of God. And it says in your scripture, Psalm 82, verse six, that you are God's, I'm only claiming to be a son of God. This is to discuss that, but we're out of time.

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Thank you so much. So our

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concluding remarks.

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Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for being present to listen to both of us. And we appreciate your time and your effort to make your way I would like to thank Selhurst church in Norwood, South London, for accommodating this debate. We really, really from the depth of our hearts, appreciate that. And I would like to thank Dr. James White for another opportunity to have a very friendly and compassionate dialogue debate with him. What are we left with we are left with a number of points. I had raised a few points to highlight how Muslims resemble Jesus, we resemble not only outwardly we resemble him, not only outwardly we resemble him inwardly, it is very clear that Jesus did not teach

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the Trinity anywhere. He did not teach his divinity anywhere. Christians today have to rely on external statements made by other people to make that insinuation. Nowhere in the New Testament, we find a statement where Jesus said, I am God. This is all you have to do. Instead of going around the world, and making vague statements, if he really wants people to believe that he's God, he could simply do it like God the father did in the Old Testament, 1000s of places, God the Father introduces himself by saying, I am your God worship Me, I am a jealous God, I am your God, I am your God. I am your God, the God of Abraham, the God of Moses, I am your God again and again. The father

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is speaking like that. But Jesus does not speak like that anywhere. What we do find from Jesus, however, is clear cut negation of his divinity if he was divine, he told people clearly he cannot be God. Like the example I gave earlier. When someone called him good. He said, Why do you call me good when God alone is good. And john 17 three, he tells his followers father is the only true God in the Greek language, language Manasa Latinos

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alone. True. A father alone is true that others cannot be true, a simple, simple logic. So Muslims resemble Jesus not only outwardly in the fasting in the prayer, in the prostration, we talked about prostration how Muslims prostrate when they pray, Jesus prayed by prostrate, prostrating to God. Abraham prayed by prostrating to God. Moses prayed like that Aaron prayed like that Daniel prayed like that David prayed like that consistent way of praying to God, with Jesus upheld and the Christians, amazingly, do not follow him in that today. They have never the trinitarians have never followed Jesus in that, worshipping God by prostrating. Likewise, we have examples of, for example,

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Jesus was circumcised. How many Christians believe in actually circumcised until they don't? Do Christians don't believe in circumcising Christians eat pig, for them is not a problem. A lot of people in West the Western world is predominantly Christian, depending on where you're looking at, or what you're looking at.

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Pork is a delicacy. People love their ham sandwiches, and black pudding, all of that Jesus, if he was alive, he would be the first person to tell these Christians, what are you doing? You are actually eating something I bought, which was forbidden by the law. Why are you not circumcised? Why do you not actually pray like me? Why are you worshiping three persons in one thing? When did I teach you that? When did I tell you to do that? You're doing it just because Thomas make a vague statement somewhere. Is that did I tell you to do that? No, Jesus on the Day of Judgment, he will be asking questions these and throughout Christian history, nearly 2000 years. If you look at Christian

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history, how did the Christians actually follow Jesus in actions in worship in belief? If you minus Paul, if you take Paul out who never met Jesus who claim to have a vision which the Christians of horde wholeheartedly accepted at the expense of the teachings of direct disciples of Jesus? Then what are you left with? If you minus Paul, you are left with Jesus? His with his prostration with his circumcision with his diet?

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tree roots with his following of the Mosaic law with this strictly monotheistic view on divinity, worship one God alone. Here, O Israel, the Lord your God is One Lord. How clear Do you want him to be? What more do you want from him? If he's God, he should have said, I am God. So is the Holy Spirit, the father you have been worshipping for centuries. Now there are three in one worship three persons in one being never did you find that with Jesus, I hope you can see the resemblance clearly between Muslims and Jesus. And Christians do not endorse things resemble Jesus Christ rather they resemble Paul, more than Jesus. Thank you so much for listening, ladies and gentlemen.

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Okay, very, very quickly, in Mark chapter seven, verse 19, Jesus declared all meats to be clean. So given the fact that He is the Lord Jesus Christ, and he is the one who created all meats, I accept what he has to say, and therefore I follow him. And the entire discussion of that is now over.

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In

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James, chapter two, verse one, we had a question earlier, why didn't James believe in these things? the brother of Jesus in James to one speaks of him, as the glorious Lord Jesus Christ does sound like a miracle. Xul the glorious, that's a very that's doxa that's a very glory of God, the same glory that Jesus talks about in john 17. James viewed Jesus as the glorious Lord Jesus Christ, it's perfectly consistent what we've been saying, not consistent with a person who believes Jesus is only a miracle Zul, as we see in Surah, four 171 john 17, three, and this is eternal life and or they might know you, Tom layth. And on stay on Kai, Han, a pesky loss a soon, Kristen, please know what

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it actually says, What is eternal life? To know you the only true God and, and why in Arabic, there's a connective there.

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And the one whom you have sent Jesus Christ, if you want to have eternal life, you have to know the father and the sun. How could you associate a mirror creature in this way? Well, if you don't just stop at that sentence and read the next sentence, the same one identifies himself and says, and now glorify me, Father, together with yourself with the glory which I had, in your presence before the world came into existence, nothing about knowledge which I had in your presence, the sun was in the presence of the Father eternally and was glorious. That's what the Scriptures state that's what allowing the scriptures to speak, say, and in john 17, three, you say, Well, he's no, he's, he's

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saying, Jesus, Jesus is saying that only the father is God. No, Jesus is saying that is not an atheist. There is only one true God.

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The father is one true God. So is the sun. So is the spirit. That's why they share the one name Yaqui. Yeah, we

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don't have time to develop this evening. But someday, I want to get into a discussion with a non or someone along the same lines. Why doesn't there seem to be any knowledge in the part of the Quran of the actual Divine Name of God in the Old and New Testaments? It doesn't seem like the author was aware of these things. Now, as you've seen this evening,

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we did it again on non we didn't manage to come to an absolute agreement on everything in one debate. Isn't that shocking?

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What are these opportunities? There are opportunities to require us to think, to hear from another perspective, to be challenged. But you see, as a Christian,

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I can trust the Spirit of God,

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to work with the Word of God.

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And that's why I continue doing these things.

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And I've said this before,

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and it is not in any way, shape or form meant to be offensive. It is absolutely the honest truth. I pray for anon

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I pray for it not I pray for his his happiness.

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And his health. But this man knows and every Muslim in this audience needs to know. My ultimate desire and prayer for anyone is that you know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior in your life. You know, that's what I believe I haven't hidden that from you. I know that he would love to have me say the Shahada, and submit to Islam. I know what he wants.

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We can be honest about that without engaging in hatred toward one another. Because as a Christian, there is no room. There can be no room in my heart

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for hatred toward anyone.

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Jesus did not leave that room there.

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He takes it all up. I can't have hatred in there.

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And so I hope this evening you have been challenged. And I hope especially you recognize if you come from the Islamic faith, my concern, my message and my love for you, thank you for being here this evening. God bless