Muslim Debates Homosexuals!

He saw it.

With Jimmy, I

don't know. I'll tell you what I'll be. I'll be honest with you. I mean, there's a lot of talk about

Libya. There's a lot of talk about how Muslims perceive homosexuals, how they interact with them, and what oh, bisexual is like, you probably might maybe associate with that. But I'm just saying, the reason why I feel it's important for us to have discussions, okay, is to basically create a

to give people understanding that of what we actually believe.

And also so that we can maybe, like actually flesh out some key issues. Because I think the most important thing from both of our perspectives on genuinely

understand each other. Yeah, we might not agree with everything we do. Yeah, we're not gonna be uniformity. We don't live in a world where we're all gonna be the same, but about understanding you understand where I'm coming from, and you understand where you're coming from. Right. So where are you gonna go? Okay, let me see, I'm coming from First of all,

I want to ask her for extra food.

So,

first of all, let me ask you something. We as Muslims, there's a principle is a maximum in the Quran, which is

we'll do another one.

There's a maximum of Rania, which says, luckily for love, and

so the soul is not given more than what it can handle them. Yeah.

So if someone has a feeling of homosexuality, yeah, so I'm saying like, if a Muslim, he feels like, Oh, I'm attracted or sexually attracted to the opposite to the same gender? Yeah. as Muslims, we say, at that point is not sinful. Because based on that, Maxim, do you see how that works? So it was the maximum.

So basically, if you're, if any human being like yourself, whatever, if you feel physically attracted,

basically, a soul is not or human being a self is not given more than it can handle in terms of ability. So if you can't control yourself, and it's just something that's within you, yeah. And you're feeling like, you know, I'm attracted to the same gender. Yeah. Sometimes you can't necessarily like, you know, control that issue. I mean,

so if that's the case, you're not sinful for feeling like that. Yeah. Because Islam doesn't hold you to account for how you feel. You see what I mean. But let me be clear, because I don't want to sugarcoat everything in life. I want to also be honest with you.

Islam, when it comes to homosexuality,

forbids homosexuality, in a sexual sense.

So what I mean to say, when I say that, is that say, for example, a man was I want to have sex with another man. Yeah.

Okay. So we would say that's morally the right thing to do. It's not a good thing to do. You see what I'm saying? Now, he feels good. When he sees a man. Right? morally, it's so it's a wrong thing for human beings to have sex.

According to the Quran, according to Islam and full on Yeah, but where does it say? What does it say that? So yeah, you know, it's interesting, because, you know, in the in the in the biblical corpus, yeah, you have a lot. In Islam, you have looked with the same person. Yeah.

The stories are different. It's not the same story completely, but there are some similarities. When it came to his people, they will homosexuals. Okay, so these people were homosexuals. He was guiding them to truth on two different fronts. He said to them,

the first thing he would say to them is stop being homosexual in terms of having sexual intercourse with other men. He actually looked at the Quran myself as it's a bit of a study. Yeah. And I look, I think nine mentions of when Locke approaches people, and he's the only prophet that I can identify that he spoke to his people. And he didn't start off by talking about hate, which is the idea that when God is one, he actually always started by speaking to them about sexual like,

to have sex with men. Men don't have sex with men. That's what I'm saying here.

Now, the reason why I would say, I think this is the argument now like in the West, they say, Look, man, that's okay. You can have that belief, that's fine. But you probably say we believe in the West Hear that? So long as you're not harming anyone else you can do everyone. Is that would you agree with that Maxim?

Yes, I guess. Yeah. Well, no, no. Yeah. As long as you know, long as you know, how many hours you can do everyone? Well, you have to

do Stuart Mill is an English philosopher, and he talks about the harm on liberty. Yeah, you guys on politics or something? What do you

think must be an economic Well, you need government

Yeah, trust me, guys, man. I've done it all before as well, man.

I've done it before. And that's why you guys know what I'm talking about john Stuart Mill the hunt principle. Yeah, yeah. And he obviously further from what Ben, if you remember, his father was close friends with whom? Bentham. Yeah, he grew up with Jeremy Bentham was a utilitarianism. So he realized that utilitarianism had like the issue of the hump, like can cause harm. So he put a cap on that, or he kind of refined a theory of utilitarianism with what he called the harm principle. If you remember, like in your studies, yeah.

You know what I'm asking questions.

I'm also the bisexual. Are you bisexual is Alright, fine. Yeah. So okay, the Moscow questions straightforward. Yeah.

Do you accept?

Do you think

all things aside, a mother and a son? They can wear protection? All right, they wear protection to

get into involve into a sexual relationship? Do you consider that morally acceptable?

I

know, I wouldn't. Because that mother is,

is an older I think age comes into it. I think that the mother is a guardian of the sun and is responsible

between them. So it's like, why wouldn't think it's okay for a teacher to have a

consensual

ending, I wouldn't think it's okay to have sex to the people because the power dynamic exists between them. Same with a mother and a son that the parent and I think

the sun if the sun had reached the age of 18, which, in England, we agree there is an age for sexual consent, and like you're an adult now. And you can reasonably

reasonably system. And yeah, if 18 is the age of sexual consent, you can make a decision as an independent adult.

You have to have sex with whoever you want. And therefore, if a mother and an 18 year old decided to have sex, then I would consider it very strange. So you wouldn't accept it. You say it's immoral.

Grandma granddad and his granddaughter was over the age.

Related is the power dynamic that exists between Okay, I'm with you. I'm listening. To your point. I think you've made a good point, actually, like I said, an interesting point.

A power relations between

I'm accepting what you're saying. Now, what I'm saying is that if we're accepting that the maximum

that we're being morally consistent with is the harm principle.

The Maxim basically that you can do whatever you want, so long as you don't harm anyone else. Yeah. Then I feel it would be a contradiction of that principle. If we said, okay, you have one rule for homosexuals, and a different rule for those people who have practiced incest. Because actually,

what I'm saying is, what can I ask you a question? What would what would be in your minds? The difference between incest and homosexuality? incest exists in this power dynamic guy explained that, like, mothers have power over their sons, and like, what the power the responsibility

the things that you've mentioned, and, and also

no power, that's inherent love. And there's an inherent connection right.

Now relationship, yeah. Would you think there's a naturalistic element, which makes it like naturalistically unacceptable, there's, there's a bond in which demands a certain responsibility from the old guardian. Okay, can I tell you something, I'll be honest with you. This power dynamic issue is an issue, which is, first of all that sometimes if you don't, if you don't follow if you don't philosophy and PBE, and stuff here, so I can tell you that you've got, I remember doing this when I was in uni, as well.

Do you guys remember like doing power? Like, did you cover like, theories of power? Robert Robert Dahl, his conception of power back backwards? And Barrett's you know, have you not done that? Alright, so basically, there are different conceptions of power. Yeah.

From a from a philosophical perspective is difficult to actually track what power is Robert Dahl who said that power is the ability for Person A to change person B's ability to do what he otherwise doesn't want to do something like that. Then there's a second layer of power, which is backpacks and berets, the advanced.

So first of all, let's talk about power dynamics. I'm obviously from a philosophical perspective. You've got Michel Foucault, who talks about power in a in a very complicated

have someone under the age of consent can like in theory, consenting, having sex with someone much older than them, so they're both practically saying yes, I want to do

has that power, it's in and of itself as a concept as a construct is a very difficult thing to define. And that's why you've got so many different people defining it in different ways. Michel Foucault backwards and barytes. Robert, Robert, now, as I say to you that so using this construct, which has power to to deem something immoral, is basically arguing in a circle, because first you'd have to prove that exists in a certain way. And then you'd have to identify how this power exists in a certain relationship, just so I mean, so I would say this, I would say that, I'll be completely honest with you. From an atheist, you guys, would you consider yourself like non religious? Yeah. So

like, No, you don't believe in a higher source? Yeah. I do believe in something that underlies everything. So I would Okay, fine. I'm with you. But you don't believe in God?

I haven't.

I haven't established. I haven't established what this underlying something is. But But he maybe got his a multiplicity of some kind. Okay, I'm with you. But can I say yourself? Again, if you don't believe in God, my question to you would be a straightforward question. Where do you derive your morals in terms of objective morality? Do you think you can get objective morality without an all knowing always entity that can detect the objective knowledge can and can still be sort of apparent to me through this sort of rationale and reasoning between individuals, which is like this underlying something is an underlying unknown big other, though, we are none the wiser to so you're

not completely dismissing the fact that there could be an enthusiasm. I'm with that. But what I was gonna say to you here was, this is my just like, just like, you know, science bases itself on objective knowledge. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, to be honest with you, the scientific method doesn't, doesn't do that. Because the scientific method itself gives you It gives you certain knowledge that you can rely on a certain time period, but then that can be falsified.

as well. Yeah, yeah. It's not certainly true. But

I feel like you know, in different set situations, you've reasoned different outcomes to

the certain outcomes that you want, right? Like if you're under threat, you wouldn't behave in the same way, as if you unthreatened? I'm with you, but what my point to you is like, have you guys read Vito Meacham? Yeah, yeah, what book Have you guys would

you want good or evil?

I mean, it's difficult.

It's a difficult book to read.

It's like the gay science.

niche are people like me, people like Bertrand Russell, philosopher, atheists, people like Derrida, Jacques Derrida, you know him, these are, these are post modernists. Yeah.

So basically, they they don't believe that objective morality exists.

So if I said to you, objectively, can you prove that homosexuality is a sin? You say, No, you can't. Yeah, you can't prove it subjectively. Say, from your perspective, what can you prove this is a good thing to do? No. And the same thing with it, I believe that I can prove is a good thing to do in the sense that I feel loved. I feel empowered. I feel like it gives me a sense of belonging. And I think that through expressing my homosexuality, I've been able to be a more authentic version of myself and give more. I think I can prove in a sense, I think that objective morality has a very

topical connotation i get i guess the struggle is I don't really believe in that many things are objective, and no matter what situation you're in, it is objective. But at the same time, I could give you anecdotal and like just real life experiences that have proven to myself and many other people's subjective, subjective. Okay, that's why I'm not saying that. Only subjective because I don't believe in objective morality. And I don't believe there's a right

or wrong. I'm not saying to you that you're not entitled to that. Okay. I'm not saying that. But I'm just saying that. So it's very difficult for us here, from a non objective perspective to actually condemn anything more morally. So even if I said, because you said that it causes me love and this and that, like, I feel, you said, My homosexuality makes me feel XYZ idea. I'm saying to you that Hitler might feel good when he's sorry. But like, when he was doing what he was doing, it doesn't it doesn't mean that because of that feeling that that necessarily doesn't necessarily mean that he's doing his moral

good, but at the same time, killed millions of people. I feel good, and like, I'm not stopping anyone else. Going back to the principles. Yeah. Can we prove that liberalism is true? objectively,

you know, liberalism, the one that we described by john Stuart Mill on liberty, you know, the book

can we prove that that idea that ideology is a true ideology?

dejectedly.

Good. That's a good discussion. Do you think all right

Okay, listen, guys. I want to say something

The following thing. Two points, I'll meet you. And I want to I want to reiterate, when it comes to the issue of homosexuality. I said to you that why'd you? Do you accept that so long as you can do everyone, so long as you don't harm anyone else? Yeah. I mean, it's hard to measure. But you said you accept that as a metric.

But at the same time, don't say it's an objective Maxim, no, no, it's not

possible to, to measure how the ramifications of how you behave affecting other people find them with you. So you accept as an objective Maxim. What I'm saying to you about him right now, is that, first of all, we've not been able to prove that we can prove that and you know that, right? We can't prove that it's an objective. But even if we applied that objective Maxim and we put it into practical usage, we realized that you'd have to allow this to occur. And you said, you don't like it for naturalistic reasons. But what I'm saying to you is that those creationists who make the same

thing think the incest and homosexuality ask you the question, like, what is the difference? Like, what why is it? Why is it For comparison, because incest is.

It's an act that involves like, very complicated power dynamics with mothers and children. So I told you before that the word power has philosophical connotations, which you have to unpack and people define it differently. So luckily, for Robert Dahl, and you know, there's a lot of ambiguity in the sexual attraction, there's a lot of ambiguity in the way we relate to each other. Like,

what can I tell you what I think? I think the reason why homosexuality is accepted and incest is not as accepted, is because in the 1960s, and 70s, you had a movement of homosexuals that came out publicly demanding rights, and that was listened to by society and it became a social norm. How'd you have the same movement for insert for people that practice in

your hypothetical hypothetical situations? And

we're talking about individual freedom, you know, we talk about the person that wants to be in an incestuous relationship should have his individual freedom as well. Yeah, yeah, of course. But okay, you can talk about sort of universalizing Okay.

No, no, I see.

There's, there's a problem. Because,

as I said, like, when you asked me, Do you have a problem of incest, I said, if some if someone is of age, if they were 18 years old, say 35, they both the boys, the man is a 35 year old man, big man like me. And the mom is like, you know, 55, I don't want to get into an incestuous relationship. I wouldn't say that was morally wrong. Okay.

Because I didn't know I would say it's, it's very strange, because, well, that's just your value judgment.

Like the mother knew them as a child, and they weren't child to them. And so a child or

adults having sex or children, so

they're not children anymore.

Like, Woody Allen, Woody Allen

adopted a child. She grew up. When she hit 18. He started getting with her. And then he ended up I generally don't think anything's wrong with that.

What is

the relationship there is a relationship of equal power or a relationship, but remember what we said?

power because that's the only thing you have to cut me down on. Okay. I don't think the relationship there is one that used to be was like, equal people, because the mother has taught the son or the Father has taught the girls. This is how you should live your life. But equality isn't is once again, you can't prove objectively,

I can't prove anything to you objectively, because I don't really believe in objective truth. It's kind of like a nonpoint icon.

Okay, all right. So do you see okay, well, I'm saying she was the following now.

That we have to be whatever paradigm we want to work within. We have to be morally consistent. Yeah. I'm, I'm a Muslim. What I believe in is that basically, God, yeah, he had there were prophets that came before time, that God revealed a message that he is singular, his one, etc, etc. It's all these prophets, and that these prophets came with two things. They came with an evidence base, and they came with a message, the message is that he was one, God is one, etc.

And that you have to obey God. That's the message in that message. So we basically got expectations we have to be in that message. I'm saying to you, that we believe

that homosexuality the act of penetration, so it should be

what people go by, is it still like

you kind of use some

is morally wrong is what we say. We say that there we say basically,

the act of penetration, the question of why the answer of

It is a straightforward question. The paradigm is that God knows best. Yeah.

Yeah, so the code

is wrong

is wrong because of the act of penetration?

Why is it wrong? The answer from our paradigm is because God said so. And God is all knowing, and subjects morally, therefore, everything that comes from an objective moral perspective is, is what we follow. But even if you wanted to use your your own words against because you didn't mention natural, naturalistic things, you said that incest is unnatural. Yeah.

Well, I think we agreed upon that at some stage but we could use that very same argument against against homosexuals.

Homosexuality exists in so many different species existed throughout the whole of time. So does so does murder.

Existing like penguins. Penguins don't like make moralistic decisions. They make naturalistic

Maxim that they don't get charged for that. The Penguin if he decides to enjoy another Penguin, Malan

Penguin, and he doesn't go Look, I tell you what, yeah, I really respect where you guys are coming from, because I feel like you know, like, I feel like you've understood my argument. Yeah. So now, when you meet, can I say you want figure? I do think that that is some kind of extremism in the Muslim world. I believe that and I say I've done some research and you'll be shocked at the research I found. There's both extremism and hypocrisy in the Muslim world.

No, no, no, no, no, it's true. Yeah.

This extremism

don't we as Muslims, the number one thing in the Quran is the following Listen to this. Yeah, chapter four verse 48. It says in the La Jolla through a you shocker be Hollywood photographer.

Okay. I don't have excuse he's

got it says.

God says I'm sorry about this. It says that God doesn't allow you to share with him Shahrukh is like,

giving the rights of God to any other God. Yeah. That's what's your case. So saying that God is someone else will be of worship or something else? Yeah, thank God. But he forgives everything else to whoever, whoever he wants. Yeah. So from that angle, the worst thing for us the Boston the cardinal sin, like in Islam, a shift. That's number one.

then beyond that as like COVID, which is the kind of like, you know, confidence, this belief, this believing in a message when it's come to you? Yeah. then below that, there are things like murder, murder, murder, is that Yeah, according to one of our scholars that wrote a book called it That was when he addresses the issue of homosexuality, he says, Then, after murder, after murder, below that, he says, He, in his opinion, he believes that the act of a man having sexual intercourse of another man is there. Right below murder, basically. So you've got *. But the point is, look, think about it. Those Christians that are walking around right now in speaker's corner, they're doing the number

one sin for us.

Because they believe that Jesus is God. Yeah. Hindus, I believe that garnish has got he's got a arms this, this God is gone. They they're doing a cotton wash. And then the homosexual Yeah, obviously a murderer was doing that. So

we're gonna

I'm just gonna finish it.

So basically, what I'm saying to you is that

I'm not going to do in the future. I'm gonna speak to them like I've spoken to you today. So I think the extremism exists, when people actually think that homosexuality is the worst thing. It's not

worse than NSM. And it also exists in the way that some people, I think they have a kind of, it's kind of like a fetish attitude towards homosexuals. If you feel like that with homosexuals, and you feel like that was Christians and Jews, or non Jews, Christians and Hindus, they're doing what we believe is the worst sin. Yeah.

So I feel like free discussion and conversation, the one that we've had today is a vitally important thing that we should do.

some sort of agreement,

in your opinion can like Muslims and homosexuals live side by side, in detail. Yeah. Look, I mean, this is

this is I think, one of the biggest misconceptions where people actually feel because of the things that's happened to

that like recent incidents, that we are out here to kill civilians or something like that, or that we are here to, to hurt.

So we don't believe in the Quran. It says in chapter two verse 256, letter crafting type type A, and I've asked them in light, it says that there's no compulsion in religion, that the truth is very manifestly clear from the falsehood.

So with that, I will conclude I'll tell you to do

As if you don't mind and

can you do me a favor when you go home So with no further

ado want to read it, read it, but if you do a BP, BP, you will get you're gonna have you're gonna have a good insight in the world because I've done a lot of media

and politics that I've done a postgraduate in, in history and things of after that. But the point is, there was lots of, like, lots of models and

what you need, I think what will make you an all rounder person is not only to have idea of political philosophy, but also to have an understanding of at least a world where major religions like well, we come from, I know where you're coming from. So you should know where I'm coming from. I'm not saying that you look, I'm not gonna treat you in a bad way. I don't like people that don't eat pork. I don't like eating pork. Yeah, but I'm not gonna sign outside the testicles. Yeah.

You know, I'm saying

what you call a

Russian, let's let's be

practically and reasonably, that's not how we interact.

Our method is rationalism, we believe in like, intellectualizing it, speaking, and genuinely not sugarcoating it. I'm not gonna lie to you. But also, I'm not going to treat you with any disrespect, because that's not the way of the professor. That's not what he did when he met the people. He said to the people,

you know, basically abandoned this act of homosexuality.

abandon it, you'll feel that your life is probably gonna get better.

If it doesn't,

it doesn't, I promise you, it will.

Do you know what it's not all about how you feel from it from a sexual perspective can tell you that,

in a sense of like me as a whole human being, I feel like I'm a more authentic version of myself. If I'm honest about my own sexual scenes, you know, you got to ask yourself a question. Now, what is the purpose of life? Because if you answer that question properly, then you can answer why, what will be the most authentic version of you, just you I mean, you are authentic when you're doing your purpose. There's a basic human function, we go ask yourself, what is that basic human function?

You see what I'm saying? Yeah.

Fantastic. I'm gonna run now because I've got a pray and go to these guys.

Brilliant. Fantastic. Thank you very much.