Trinity College Dublin
Mohammed Hijab – Ireland And Palestine
AI: Summary ©
The Muslim Students Association held an event for their MSA where influencers recite the holy Bible and participate in a recitation of the Bible. The guest, Mohammed Qaeda, is a representative from the United States who has been involved in various issues, including the recent unrest in the UK and the recent unrest in Ireland. The speakers emphasize the importance of unity in politics and the need for policies to ensure privacy, and the importance of protecting individuals' privacy. They also discuss the importance of addressing problems and taking responsibility for one's actions, citing studies showing that people often fail to comply with laws and lead to negative behavior.AI: Transcript ©
Salam Alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh
Desikan will pay everyone for joining us today on this very special events that we have the biggest event that we have for our MSA the Muslim Students Association, here in Trinity College Dublin, featuring one of the biggest influencers Muslim influencer is YouTubers in the online English speaking Dawa sphere Muhammad hijab. So we'll begin as we begin all of our events with some recitation of Quran. And I have a great pleasure to welcome one of my predecessors as a previous president of the Muslim Students Association, Arab brother Ahmed lava to recite and to begin our event with some recitation of the Quran. So without further ado, please welcome Arabic Achmed, lava
Smilla
he Muna shaytani R. rajim.
Bismillah R Rahman r Rahim
in Fini, follow.
Tila in lane, you heard
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Lavina and corona Allah help me
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I probably sort of caveat it before I said that that tech beat is something that we say out of, out of happiness and out of when we get some good news we say Allahu Akbar, unfortunately now it's, it's taken a different kind of meaning. But we're here to reclaim the word Allahu Akbar, because it's such a beautiful, profound phrase, Allahu Akbar, Allah is greater. So it's not technically a complete sentence from an Arabic perspective. Allah is greater than anything. Allah, God is greater than everything. God is, of course, the Arabic name, or Allah has the Arabic name for God. It's not like there's another god for any other human being or any other religion. There is only one God and
we believe in that God who is our Creator. And of the verses that were mentioned, one is particularly actually this phrase was mentioned twice within the verse, Muslim benign dilla. Taff, this is
a reward that is from Allah, New Zealand benign de la wema, in de la hyrulean Abrar, that this reward, this entertainment, this reward that a person gets in the Hereafter, it is from God Himself. So the one who is all powerful, all forgiving, it was the best, the best to give rewards the best in giving rewards the best in giving forgiveness, He is the one who has given this reward to a person and it says that who is better than Allah, who is better than God as a, as an entity to give reward. So we hope all of us who are sitting here that we are all engaged in activities that are pleasing to Allah that are pleasing to God, and that we ever find ourselves on the side of oppressors whether
that is from a perspective of individuals that we oppress other people that we oppress our parents, we oppress our relatives, or who those who fund or who encourage other people to oppress other people, this, we don't want to be in this kind of situation. And in any case, and we hope that we are all of those who God He shows His mercy towards us. Because there's another statement of the Prophet peace be upon him, which says that a person can be of the people of Jannah, that a person can be written that this person is a person of gender, but he does a deed that is sinful, and he ends up being on the other side. So it is never the case that we you can be a Muslim, you can be a
very practicing Muslim. But you can never reach the point that you can say that I'm sorted, I am going to enter, I'm going to enter heaven. And you this person was sitting there you you, you are such an individual that you are never going to be forgiven. This is beyond our remit. And I say this to our congregations when we give the hotbeds when they give the sermons, that this is a burden that has been lifted from us. This is a burden that we don't have to take this isn't a pressure that we have been indicted we have been trusted with this is up to God that it is up to him to forgive is up to him that he is the one who decides and he decides whatever is best. It is absolute pleasure as
president of the Muslim Students Association, here in Trinity College Dublin to welcome all of you and I would like to ask all of you to welcome into into
to join me in giving yourselves a round of applause for making this event, a possible event and making this as productive and as an amazing event as it will become inshallah so a round of applause for all of you guys.
Of course, we are gathered here to discuss and analyze a very important topic, the issue of Palestine and we have our brother Muhammad hijab who has
been involved in a number of interviews and a number of debates on this issue.
And inshallah we have been blessed. Really, we've been blessed with his presence today. And one thing to mention before we introduce and bring them the jab onto the stage, literally just yesterday he came back from pack
is done. So just keep that in mind. He had a tour, attend a tour in Pakistan. He just arrived yesterday in the UK. And he has kindly joined us for the first stop of our tour with the Isley Brothers here in Ireland at the first stop here in our very own Trinity College Dublin. So to introduce Mohammed hijab, of course he doesn't require any introduction, but he is an author, a comparative religionist, a philosopher of religion, and he is a co founder of the Sapiens Institute and a researcher and instructor for the organization. He has a BA in politics and masters in history. He has also acquired a third, a second master's in Islamic Studies from the School of
Oriental and African Studies. He job also completed a third Master's Degree in Applied theology from the University of Oxford, where he focused on the philosophy of religion in Applied Sciences.
In applied settings, rather, her job is now doing his PhD in Philosophy of Religion. On the contingency argument for God's existence, he has amassed a following of now over 1.1 million subscribers on YouTube on his main channel. He has a number of other channels. I'm sure you've all heard of him, especially with the recent escalation of issues within Palestine. He has, of course, been quite vocal, and he has appeared on the Piers Morgan uncensored program where he had done quite an interview that has gone viral on a debate following that on the same issue, so before I introduce Muhammad hijab, and we welcome him to the stage and I would like to ask all of you to when he comes
onto the stage to welcome him with a real warm Irish Welcome, ladies and gentleman, Muhammad hijab.
Salam aleikum wa rahmatullah.
I'm wondering why the lights are off, I think it's designers forces are
trying their best.
So I wanted to say that, you know, first and foremost being an island,
a country which actually has shown support to the Palestinian cause, and continues to show support. First of all, I want to show my gratitude to the Irish people in that regard, because, frankly, we have a shared kind of history. I was thinking to myself, why is it that the Irish people will always find the Irish people support this cause so much. And then I thought about the history of Ireland, itself, a country that was colonized by the British Empire, itself, a country, which has seen the pernicious face of colonialism, a country, which in the mid 19th century,
when the famine was happening here, before independence in Ireland, that more than a million people died in Ireland, and the British did not help. So the Irish know, the kind of colonial gains that the British Empire, the West, Western Europe and as extensions are capable of, and I think it's because of that, that the Irish people have such solidarity with the Palestinian cause.
But you know, notwithstanding that fact, of course, there are elements of Irish society, and a European society and a western society, which have shown the same kind of indifference to the plight of the Palestinians, that the British showed the Irish, for example, in the famine in the mid 19th century. The same kind of apathy, for the death of the 10s of 1000s of people draw elements of society, which showed that kind of thing.
And the reason why that is the case is simply because
they don't care too much. They don't care too much about people who do not live within certain parameters and certain geographic locations. But we have seen the killing of 10s of 1000s of people, the extent to which I am sure, if the same thing had happened to members of the Jewish community, they would be calling this
Holocaust at this stage, a holocaust by missiles.
If 10s of 1000s of Jewish people, children were being decimated and annihilated in this manner,
and that fathers and mothers were coming with bags of their children, effectively chopped up into little pieces
and presenting it to the international community, there will be uproar. There would be outrage, there will be absolute
outrage throughout the entire international Western Community. So the masks have actually dropped.
The masks have dropped. We know now that they don't really care about us in that way.
I was just in Pakistan, a country where many of you originally from
and I encountered some liberal, secular and feminist Pakistanis.
And what I said to them, I said to them, no problem. I mean, you can be whatever you like, I even encountered members of the transgender community in Pakistan. I did.
And the LGBT community.
Acute a community I may add, yes. Which last year when I was meant to come to this university, threatened to protest
in order to stop me from coming and saying whatever I want to say. Anyway, that has failed now, because I'm right here, I mean.
But I will say this.
What I said to some of those people, there was the following.
I said to them in Pakistan, I said, let me ask you a serious question. We've seen feminists in the West talk about equal pay. And we've seen them talk about abortion rights. And we've seen them talk about representation in Parliament. To what extent have they expended the same energy or a fraction of the same energy talking about the killing the death and the destruction of Palestinian women in Palestine? To what extent to what extent have they expended a fraction of the same energy speaking about the mass murder and * and destruction of the Kashmiri women, or the Rohingya women, or the Uighur women, or the Syrian women, or the Iraqi women, or the Bosnian women
you see, above and beyond equal pay or abortion rights is in fact, the right for everyone to live? I think everyone agrees on that. So why is it that we see so much energy being expended in the direction of policies which solely affect Westerners, and white people living in the West, when these are meant to be international ideologies. And to be honest, I think they understood that criticism.
And I said to them, in Pakistan, therefore, we need to figure out our own conceptions of women's rights, we need to figure out our own conceptions of human rights. And it does not need to be an export from the west. It does not need to be forced upon us.
By the West, it doesn't need to be because we know that the West seeks an asymmetrical relationship with every single one of us. It seeks a colonial relationship or * relationship. We don't need a relationship like that. Because what we actually need is to be able to express ourselves in the ways in which we need to be able to express ourselves.
For example,
what is the primary concern when I was thinking to myself, and I came on the news here in Ireland before I even entered the country, because that's how special I am
the times of Ireland and this one and that one came on the news. And I was saying to myself, What is the primary problem? I'm not gonna say all members of the LGBT community because I'm sure some of them like me
received many messages and so many
things that
especially for to me
I'm not going to say anything here.
I'm going to sit down with anyone in the LGBT community, especially the L community.
We can do a ceasefire agreement, in fact,
hopefully I will be used as human shields. Well, that's another story for another day. The point I'm making to you is, what is the primary concern that they had? The primary concern is, well, he's against us. I'm not necessarily against any human being. To tell you the truth. Well, he said some things which are against homosexual morality? Well, let me tell you something.
If I don't believe that the act of homosexuality is a moral thing is morally acceptable. Well, you don't believe
Islam is a morally acceptable thing or morally correct thing? Because if you did, you'd be a Muslim. If you believe Islam was morally correct, you would be Muslim. That is the truth. So why are you allowed to have a belief which is antithetical to mine, and I cannot have a belief, which is antithetical to yours. Surely, every ideology, every religion, every idea, is a competitor to every other ideology, and every idea, surely, that's what it is. And so if someone is a Marxist, they don't believe in capitalism, if someone is a capitalist, they don't believe in Marxism, if someone is a vegetarian, they don't believe in eating. If someone believes in meat eating, they don't
believe in vegetarianism. Now, that's just a fact. But to say, Okay, you're not allowed to speak about what you believe. But we can speak about what we believe, frankly, that goes against liberalism. Because what you're now asking, from your perspective, is that one minority be treated differently to another minority, which is against pluralism, and against equality, that's against your worldview, not even mine.
So, the fact that you tried to protest me to come into this particular college institution
is actually a self refuting policy, self defeating position. And I will say that, if that is allowed to happen, once it will be a slippery slope, and it will happen over and over again.
But as I say,
we are allowed to have our positions, and we should be allowed to speak about our positions is a difference between dispelling a position and calling for, for example, some kind of restriction to be placed on a certain people, you will find nothing in my speech in the past the present or the future, of me saying, for example, that we should harm a homosexual
or that we should, you know, treat them in a negative manner, you will still find nothing in my speech that says that. So if that is the case, then it shouldn't be one rule for one community. And another rule for another us one point I needed to make.
The other point is this, actually, we have found people from the left the left wing, quite supportive of the Palestinian cause. And for that, we are grateful. Yes, we are we are grateful to anybody who is supportive of the Palestinian cause. And this is a point of unity. In fact, anybody can support the Palestine cause, including people who identify as homosexuals.
And we don't have any problem with that whatsoever. In fact, we can agree on that point.
Because Muslims are not left wing. And they are not right wing, and they are not centrist. And they don't need to be anywhere on the political spectrum of the white man. We don't need to be anywhere on the political spectrum of the white man, because frankly, our morality transcends all of those things. And it's different to all of those things. So there are things that we are going to agree on a social level with people who call themselves conservatives. And there are some things which we may agree
with people on the left with people who call themselves liberals. And there are some things which we will agree
with the centrists with people who call themselves centrists. And so
Muslims in this country and throughout the West, must establish their own civil rights movement.
We have our own independent struggles.
And the top most chief most important thing, which has been plaguing us is actually the international affairs, the foreign policies of the West because as I've just listed,
so many people have
When killed at the hands of the foreign policy of the West, and then resentment starts to accrue in the imaginations of the Muslim people. And then that leads to radicalization. And it leads to terrorism or whatever you want to call it.
And the Irish understand all about that. Because you have seen your fair share of terrorist action here.
And in Belfast,
where I'm going to go after tomorrow.
And in fact,
I was playfully joking with the guys and say, Look, I'm going to go what you're going to speak about in Belfast. So I'm going to speak about the need for independence from the, from the British, because we can't be speaking, we can't be speaking about one kind of occupation, which is the occupation of Palestine through designers, and not addressed the other kind of occupation, which is the occupation of the British on Belfast in Northern Ireland.
This is why you can speak about that, because I said, I've had enough of the West playing divide and conquer with our lands, it's about time I do the same with this
time I become the Lawrence of Arabia.
Because with me, they may have expected one kind of radicalism.
You know, Islamist radicalism. But maybe I will inspire a completely different strand of radicalism
of a independence.
Kind in Belfast. But that's something else, the point I'm making is,
the Irish understand all about it, because frankly, they're the only real example in Europe, of people that have been treated like colored people who are not actually colored people. If you think about it,
they're the brown white people.
Because if you think about it, they've been treated just as an Indian maybe has been treated. Or some person, I'm not gonna say, the blacks, because that was a bit too much. I don't think there was any Irish slave trade like that. on that level. That's, but they have been treated. That's why I have noticed that the Irish people are very open with the ethnic. I don't know if this is something. I mean, my dad married an Irish woman. People don't know this. I have family in Ireland. I've come in before.
I have an extended family here in Ireland. You know, my sister, she's half Irish. It's true.
And, you know, Hamdulillah, Muslim as well.
And I was saying to the guys, is there still an issue between?
Is this still an issue between? Because I've never understood, okay, there was a sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland. People were connected to
Protestantism, because England was Protestant. Yeah. And the other group was the Catholics, but now people have become irreligious. Right? So do they still identify in this way? Is this is this still a problem like that there's still, but if it's really a sectarian problem between Catholics and Protestants, I have a solution for the people of Northern Ireland.
They can all become Muslim. And they can solve the issue in that manner. This is one way they can solve the issue without any bloodshed.
And I was looking at a list of
countries with the least
active military personnel. And I found that Ireland has 6000 people in the military.
I mean, there's gangs in London with more than that.
I mean, what the * is going on? You think this is independence?
You've got the United Kingdom next door with 150,000 active military powers and try them. And you're telling me you're independent with 6000? No, this is not in full independence. I mean, Hamas has more than that.
Hamas has 10 times as much as that, in fact.
6000.
Anyway, the point I'm making is that if Ireland really wants independence, they must in the same way, because I'll be honest, one could argue the 6000.
I can understand I went to Iceland. They don't even have an army. By the way. In Iceland. They do not have an army in Iceland. So huge country, but is geographically they don't have an army. They've subcontracted they're fighting to NATO. Yes. I say fine.
You can subcontract. You're fighting
to NATO, but at least don't subcontract your thinking to the West as well. And don't fall into the New Age colonialism.
This is my message to the Irish people. Because the New Age colonialism is the colonialism of ideas.
It's the colonialism of ideas. Why do we need to take on knowledge productions? From England, France, Germany and America? Because that's these are the powerhouses of the Enlightenment, for example, Italy, you could, you can argue that there are reasons why those countries
criticality now must be expanded for the Irish people. And I think it has been, and that's why the Irish people have been so staunch on the pro Palestinian issue because they realize
the game of politics that is being played, but the next step is to realize that now it's not just a game of politics, but a game of ideas. And there's no reason for us to take for granted Western ideas. I was looking at the map recently.
The world map?
Yes, I was looking at the world map.
And in the world map.
Greenland is huge. Okay. Greenland, is huge.
And I was looking at it with my children. And they pointed out what's that contrast? That's Greenland is huge country is the same size as Africa, the whole continent of Africa. I said, That can't be right. So as a bit of research,
and I realized that Greenland
is actually 14 times smaller than the continent of Africa,
but it's represented on the map as the same size.
And this was a big shock for me.
It really was, I said, How dare they do this? They're lying about geography.
Now, there's a reason for this. I mean, they did this because it was easier to navigate with, with that kind of distortion. But what that meant was when you look at the world map,
America, United States of America, and Canada and Russia, they look much bigger than they actually are. They're not actually that big at all. By the way,
I'm not sure if you notice. So I started looking at the maps, which are to scale.
And I had a paradigm shift. My God, Africa's a huge continent is so huge America, the United States can fit in there so many times.
Can you imagine this, and you notice a very small country. I know Ireland is more vertical. But no even more shocking to me was the United Kingdom. It was a very was nothing. It was like nothing, probably the 50th biggest country or something like that in the world. It's quite a small country, frankly.
And I thought, wow, they distorted how big these countries are. And then I thought to myself another question.
Why have they put the European countries on the top, I mean, it's the Earth is a ball.
And it's round. And there's not we don't know where the top and the bottom of the universe is. So at least have some maps with South Africa at the top.
I mean, at least have some of them. There's no map I've ever seen for a fact that I see a map with South Africa at the top, I'd consider that to be some kind of joke.
But when you flip the map over, and you make it to scale,
immediately,
the relevance of the West is reduced.
It's like it's much smaller, and it's on the bottom, like more developments is reduced.
And I thought, Wow, what a colonial tactic. Even in geography lesson, they try and distort the matter.
Even in geography, honestly, genuinely. And I thought to myself, the worldview in which we are looking at the world in is very Western, it's so hard to shake off this Eurocentrism to the point where if we think about countries, we think of the certain shape, and certain size and certain direction.
Now, what I want to say
is that just as we have been fooled and duped into the relevance of the west on the map, we've also been fooled and duped
into the theories of justice in the moralities of the West, we've been duped in the same exact way. And we take for granted certain things in the West, which are considered to be
good and bad and evil and so on, just on unjust right and wrong. Theories of equality theories of justice, theories of democracy and liberalism, all of these things.
They are distorted notions, with no evidence, and nothing to underpin or undergird them, except for the sword.
The sword
that has been yielded and used in order to spread like colonial liberalism,
and democracy.
They
Since the real reason why people when they think of right and wrong, they think of Western notions of right and wrong.
It's been forced upon us
these distorted notions in the same way as the map is a distortion, so to
other moralities, because the question would be, what are the evidences for these moralities? For example, liberalism,
classical liberalism as a philosophy, which is the dominant religion now of the Western world,
through which and by which most moralities of the West are either accepted or rejected. If I were to ask a simple question, what is the evidence of classical liberalism? of social liberalism? What is the evidence of the harm principle, you can do whatever you want, so long as you don't harm anyone else,
that the individual is sovereign, what are the evidences for this thing?
Well, John Stuart Mill, for example, tried to provide some evidences. But none of those evidences fulfilled the criteria of empiricism, which he himself was he was an empiricist. None of them none of the evidences that he provided were conclusive evidence is a refract acceptable evidences. For example, in his book on utilitarianism, he tried to provide evidence for what you call the principle of utility,
says, why is it the case that the hedonistic calculus is correct, that you can do whatever you want, and that it should be the most good and most pleasure for the most number of people, he couldn't provide any evidence for that. So what I'm saying to is the Palestine issue.
The Palestine issue is just a symptom of a greater system that's happening now, which is the system of Western *. If this system of Western *, which exports ideas, manipulates people by the sword, and through ideas, and through Hollywood, the Netflix and these things, all of it together, if it wasn't in place,
then we could easily identify the problems and reject them.
But we are being manipulated.
We are being manipulated, because we have been forced to accept ideas without evidence. But what can be stated without evidence can be rejected without evidence.
Now,
really the Palestine issue.
The Irish people,
the Irish people have accepted the Palestine issue, because it's emotionally close and sentimental to them. And I understand that.
Really, I think it's more about Irish identity to accept the Palestine issue than is about Palestinian identity or Muslim identity or anything else. Because the moment the Irish people start speaking, like the other Westerners, like Piers Morgan, and this one on that one,
and trying to hold the stick from the middle,
and try and make justifications for the rogue state of Israel, the moment that happens, and they know that almost nothing unique.
Nothing
differentiates them from the rest of the Europeans.
Nothing differentiated, they've become like the rest of the Europeans right now, there's so much that differentiates Irish people from the rest of the Europeans, they have a shared history with the brown peoples of the world, to the point where almost you could say the brown people of the world accept them as one of their own.
It was the case that it was said no dogs, no blacks, no dogs, and no Irish.
That will never be forgotten by the Irish people. But it will also never be forgotten by the ethnic people, because the ethnic people realize that they had the struggle similar to their own.
And the Palestine issue, something that brings us all together. Now what I want to do for the rest of the session is I want to open this up for questions and answers, and I've said some volatile things. But I've done that purpose, purposefully.
Because
you know, last time I tried to come here was on the national newspapers, I might as well give my response. So we will now in sha Allah have the first question for the job. Firstly, thank you very much for accepting our invitation to join us back or to join us here in Trinity College, Dublin.
How has your experience been so far in the university?
Just just came in? I mean,
no foot welcome. It's fantastic. It's a really good university. You know, I like it. It's big. It's spacious. And it's, you know, the infrastructure is fantastic. People are good, especially yourself, you know, dress fantastically well today. I'm sure Allah like,
yes, we have to represent the university so we have to do that properly away as possible.
It's the most prestigious university in the country of Ireland. So make sure that if you are asked about this, you only mentioned Trinity College, no other. There's one that's called UCD. That doesn't really exist, doesn't even know it did exist. I didn't even know it didn't exist before. You just mentioned the three letters that
is there like the State of Israel.
I can just begin by, by mentioning the issue the event last year, I just didn't want to highlight this, because you just mentioned digital. And it was, it's fair enough that you did. Yeah. Last year, the issue that occurred happened quite suddenly, just two days before the event. And essentially, what happened was that we didn't have enough time to get the security that was required from the college's perspective to allow the events to go ahead. Now, from the perspective of Was there enough of an issue to allow that to happen from from students that some students weren't happy with your speaking on campus, that's another issue. And of course, as you mentioned, that's, that's
a slippery slope, if you start going down that so what we did this year is we felt, and I think all of us here agree that we needed to make this wrong into a race that we have to give a we have to invite you back to Trinity College, that we have an event with you here in Trinity College. And it's not again, an issue to say that, Oh, we want to prove a point to a particular group. But rather, it's to say that exactly what you said that if this happens now, tomorrow, it's going to happen to a different speaker, it's going to happen to a different group. And it's just a slippery slope, what we did this year, and I hope this is a motivation. And this is a lesson that we can all learn as
Muslims, particularly, we approached the college administration six months in advance to make sure that we have all the preparations ready for this event. We spoke with the junior Dean, we got all the security sorted. And we have the Dean of Students here with us. And we're very happy to have the Dean of Students, Professor Porter here with us who sit in the front row. So you can just give him a round of applause as well to.
In your discussions, you mentioned something very critical, and that was that in Trinity College Dublin, we don't want to set the precedent. We don't want to create an environment of canceled culture, where one speaker is internet speak another speaker's intellect, it's wanting to have differences of opinion. But it's one thing that you listen under, you can have respect, and there can be respectful debate. So from that perspective, it was quite heartening for me to hear the kind of support that the college had in terms of making sure that this events that we have here today goes ahead. And we hope that this was done. And this has been done in a way that is as professional
and as appropriate as possible. So that's something that is important for us to clarify. Also, on the other issue, I just wanted to mention that you specifically said quote, unquote, that you're joking with the lads in terms of the issue on Northern Ireland, I just want to focus on the second part to you call us the lads, I really appreciate that you consider us one of yourselves. But yet, just to mention that issue of joking.
This is an issue that can be discussed further above Northern Irish independence. And of course, it's not the topic of discussion, particularly today. Coming back to the issue of discussion today. With regards to the recent if I can begin with this question in regards to the recent iCj ruling on the issue of Israel, and whether it's a genocide, if you can explain exactly what the ruling is, as there's some confusion as to exactly what the outcome of the ruling is, and the outcome of the ruling itself. What can that what kind of hope can that give and what can we expect in the future that can be a result of this ruling and perhaps other rulings in the future?
The thing is, there are two bodies in the eu un, which act as courts
for the grievances of either individuals or nations on an international law level, and there's the ICC, and the ICJ right. And both of those courts in the past have shown to be quite impotent in being able to
exact or produce any rulings favorable to the Palestine course, which is why when this whole thing happened, that trial happened. I wasn't necessarily mentioning anything about it, because those bodies visa vie the Palestine issue, have shown to be Toothless agencies. For example, in 2021, the ICC which is a similar kind of organization, where there had been the PLO, which is the or the PA the Palestine authority, they had raised a case to them after the there was a shoe
thing that took place of 241 Palestinian people in the Gaza Strip, okay. They were doing protests and against the Israelis, and then they were shot to under 41 of them. So they decided to raise the the case to the ICC. What happened was the then Trump administration threatened the ICC. And they couldn't take the case any further. That left a kind of very dangerous precedent, which is that if the United States of America considers the ICC or the ICJ going too far, against its own strategic interest, it has and it can stop the ICC or the ICJ from doing something which it would otherwise do. It shows you that the UN
and its bodies as organs, there are six, you know, subdivisions of the UN.
The iCj is one of them. The ICC isn't actually there's there's two courts, one of them is, you know, but anyway, that the United States can actually effectively if it's not formal veto, it can operationally veto a decision from those courts. And if that's the case, and we already know that the Americans are siding with the Israelis in policy, then we shouldn't have too much hope, frankly, in those organizations. Having said that, it was an interesting ruling. Some people like Finkelstein, who is a an expert on this issue, he considers this to be a victory for the Palestinians, because he considers this over the Palestinian cause, because he considers this
to allow for the possibility of plausible genocide. And technically, that is true. I mean, technically what that because what they said is that they need to produce reports, Israel needs to produce reports, to show that they're not committing genocide, which means that they haven't ruled that Israel is not committing genocide. And if you know, the ranking of different things as war crimes, and then crimes against humanity, and then genocides like the apex a worst thing that can be, it's the worst possible thing, effectively to be as the highest evidentiary bar
to be able to prove a genocide.
And so
I think that
in terms of where the ICG could take it, I think it's the furthest they could potentially take it without having a reaction from the United States of America. That's what I think is going on here. I think that these judges knew what was going on. They couldn't take it too far.
If because if they said they are committing genocide, they were putting that they were putting their lives in danger, maybe, or they will be putting their careers in danger. I think that that's what they, how they calculated it. And as such, they decided to do this, which in a way is still interesting, because it shows us plausible genocides happening. But it's not a full victory in any sense of the word because they didn't say that they are committing genocide. But I don't know why this is what is being discussed, because there are lower things which can be agreed, for example, collective punishment. So collective punishment is much lower on the evidentiary bar list, to prove
the fact that this case was not about war crimes, and was about genocide, which requires the highest level of evidentiary bar shows you that these guys are not willing, or wanting to prosecute the Israelis, or do anything with them. It's I think it's a bit like WWE.
The WWE thinks a fake election, like, you know, I just came back from Pakistan. And there was a fake election going on there.
There was, but this is like, you know, when you're not when you see a fake election, you notice there's a fake election. Okay, fine, isn't fake election. Same thing. When the ICJ and ICC delivers rulings, it's kind of phase a sham, the whole thing is a sham. So I don't have any trust in those, frankly, me personally, I have zero trust in those organizations. I think the best chance in terms of the Muslims or Muslim majority countries defending themselves, is actually nothing to do with the Muslim majority of countries themselves is to do with Russia. It's all to do with Russia, in my opinion, because if Russia is strong enough, and it acts as a counterbalance to the west, and the
Muslim majority countries decide to
ally with them, or to team up with them or to have some strategic allegiance with them for some time, then the Americans, that's the only thing that can scare the Americans. I think that's the only thing that can see is Russia. I'm not gonna say China for now, because China is doing some things which are, I don't think we can endorse or even Russia doing things which come we can't endorse them in frankly, both of them, both them are the same. But if Russia gets strong enough, and if China gets strong enough as well, frankly, that's the own. These are the only two countries in the world that can act as a reasonable counterbalance.
to Western hegemonic oppression, in my opinion, these are the only two countries that can do it. Because then they would fear that Muslim majority countries could team up with them against
America, for example, they would fear that and that would be a more effective thing than the ICC and the ICJ just playing politics in that way. There are 59 Muslim majority countries.
And there could be kingmakers in the in the world system.
But as I say, I think the future of how Muslims can affirm themselves independently actually depends on how the whole thing with Russia
pans out, I think.
Yeah, I think politics, of course, it's quite a complex issue, trying to get something done to politics has a number of strings attached in terms of the countries you mentioned. And recently, there was a vote within the UN, which was vetoed by the US as well, on a dip from a different perspective, public opinion has been shifting quite a bit, particularly since the last escalation in October since October,
there has been quite a shift in in public opinion towards the issue of Palestine and a lot of people who were perhaps undecided of Israel. In this issue, they have started thinking more critically, and they have started opening up to the idea that Israel isn't necessarily on the right side of history here. So from a can say, from a particularly Muslim perspective, or from a Palestinian perspective, how important do you think the media and the issue of controlling our own narrative to the media is particularly with Twitter with a lot of Palestinian voices being able to be spoken without censorship? And even within mainstream media, for example, if you can call Piers Morgan censored of
the mainstream media, where he is having Palestinian voices there to represent themselves? Now? Of course, it's there's a caveat in terms of whether that's fair or not, whether that's done in a fair way. But how would you say the Muslim position or the Palestinian position more more generally, on public change in public opinion, husband and how that's changed hoped, in fact, on this issue, since there isn't a station?
You Yeah, I think public opinion always has a role to play. Yeah. And there is precedent in the past of like, when public opinion reaches a critical mass, that it can effectively change a policy there is there is precedent of that the extent to which that's the case depends on the level of public opinion, that level of pressure, lots of different factors.
But I think it's definitely worth doing. Like, from our perspective, it's definitely worth doing, by the way, are these questions from the public from the audience members? Because I want to make sure that we interact with with them are you
we're getting from the audience members as well, unfortunately, many of them are completely unrelated. So if I
guess it's okay, just if this is good enough, is, whatever, you know, it'd be nice to not too good. But if you have any questions, please make it specific to the topic.
There's a lot going on. That's not the topic.
Are they? Are they? Are we taking them from the from the floor? Like?
My eyes will take them from the floor. If you haven't questions, please do send it here. And if it's relevant, please do send it there. There's a few there's a few people on the floor here that this man here can see him. Very. Another issue that I do want to discuss,
is this issue of Palestine? Historically, it has been considered an issue of Muslims versus Jews. And of course, if you look at that, from a historical perspective, it doesn't make sense for that to be the case. So many Muslims perhaps aren't particularly aware of this about how Jewish people were treated within Muslim majority lands. And a number of the numbers in the apps are completely unaware of this. So can you shed some light on this issue? How Jews are treated within Muslim majority countries? For the most part, of course, there are exceptional situations, and how the current issues are community on linked to any of them. Yeah, I mean, there are times in Muslim history,
because 1400 years of history, there's tons of Muslim history where I will say the majority of times, it's very difficult to generalize history, but that Muslims were treated, Jewish people were treated in a good manner,
or in a way which allows them to be Jews, and have, you know, their own rights and their own synagogues and their own, you know.
And there were times where that wasn't the case. Of course, like for example, them were hidden in Morocco.
In fact, they were quite oppressive to Eve
and Muslim people. So you can find whatever example you're looking for. I mean, I can quote you Zion Zoho, for example, who very famous Jewish historian. He says that when thought I couldn't Ziad came into, you know, Spain at the time, or Gibraltar actually was, you know, he said that he liberated the area and the Jews were liberated and these kinds of things. And you can find the opposite thing as well, you can find quotations from reputable historians, who are saying that it was was fantastic. And there are quotations from reputable historians who say it wasn't so good in certain times. There were times in Spain where you had Jewish heads of state, for example, there were there
were times it was under Islamic law, or Islamic rule, in fact, that you had the Jewish golden years. That's a fact that you had my Mona dish, who was Musa and Manuel, he existed at the time of the Islamic Golden Age, for example,
you could argue that he was subsequently, you know, mistreated, or something like that. But frankly, he wrote many of the books and treatises in Arabic, even which I've read some of his works in Arabic, the little hygiene, for example, the guy to the perplex, you know, and this is him operating under Islamic rule. So you have good examples of that. Well, suffice it for me to say that Islam as a religion, okay, Islam as a as a religion, it allows Jewish people to live under Islamic rule as autonomous agents, okay. And it doesn't force them, it shouldn't force them to be what they are. Because the Quran says quite clearly, like it could have been cut Tobago, in a rush to modify that
there is no compulsion in religion, that truth has been made clear from falsehood. So I can't defend 1400 years or something.
And I'm not commissioned to defend that. Because whatever example I use of good treatment of Jewish people, I'm sure there is another counter example of that.
Sure, no problem. I will say this, that the general trend does seem to be that Jewish people found a homeland, or protection or safe haven,
in the Islamic spaces. And there are some really good examples of that, for example, after the Alhambra declaration, in 1492, and the Spanish Inquisition, when the Christians were destroying Muslims and Jews, and trying to forcibly convert them, that the Jewish people went to the Ottoman Empire, that they actually emigrated, the Ottoman Empire, and they found safe haven and the Ottoman Empire. Now, that's a great example of where the Ottoman Empire for example, was able to, to to house Jewish people and to help Jewish people.
So look, what I'm saying to you is, on paper, theoretically, in abstract Islam as a religion, Islamic law, states, that
Jewish people in an Islamic rule, or Islamically, ruled polity should have their own religion, should not be forcibly converted, should not be oppressed, should not be harmed, you know, they will pay a tax called the jizya. Tax. Some people find this controversial. So why do they have to pay discriminatory tax? That's not a discriminatory tax, it's actually less than as a cat, if it's discriminatory, is probably discriminatory towards the Muslims.
And that tax is just
a tax for their own protection. Just like in Ireland, you have to pay taxes as Muslim people, I'm sure there's no problem for Jewish person paying taxes for the protection of the state. That's it, I mean, at the end of the day, and in fact, there are some interesting things that some Islamic scholars have spoken about Canada do drink alcohol and wine and so on in the Islamic State. Some scholars discuss the matter and said yes, why I mean, it's not their religion. Of course, we mentioned for example, in his Tafseer of 929.
In the Quran, which is a controversial verse. But so that's the only verse that talks about Jizya, no Quran, the courseware has an entire tafsir. And then that tafsir he says that he has like 1020 pages in that. And he discusses the issue of drinking alcohol. For example, Christians and Jews drinking alcohol, for example, in Islamic State, is it possible and he says it's possible because they are not Muslims. So if he's part of the sacraments as part of their life, whoever, but they wouldn't bring it out and sell it to Muslims. That will be the restriction that they can't sell this to Muslims because Muslims are not allowed to drink alcohol, for example, but within their own
communities, so really, what is it in fact, you could argue in some areas, that they would have more rights than Muslims have in certain parts of us because they have parallel legal systems like for example, if a Jew
I wanted to go to a,
for example, a court for their own issues, they could go to a Jewish court for the unfamiliar issues.
And that Jewish court would rule in their favor, for example.
Now, what I mean to say is, the fact is interesting. There's a book by Anton Cohen.
There's a guy, his name is Anil Cohan. And he was looking at the court records in the Ottoman Empire. And he showed the amount of Jewish people who decided to go to the Sharia courts, rather than to the old Jewish courts, despite the choice of both because they saw more justice in the Sharia courts. And this is primary source material, taken from what he called the sigil, which is the digitized database of the Ottoman Empire, which have a pretty sophisticated bureaucracy. So there is primary source information to indicate that the rights of Jewish people were protected to such an extent where they had the opportunity to go to their own courts, but they opted to go to the
Sharia courts, in the Ottoman Empire, for example.
So to answer your question, I think you can find examples of both, but on paper, at least an abstraction in the Islamic law and religion. Jewish people are not to be forced not to be converted by force not to be harmed, they're not to be hurt, treated with respect, they have their own course, they live their own lives, and so on and so forth. And there are caricatures of how that seems, but that all those characters are false. In my opinion,
I think it's well, it is important for that, to be clear, from a Muslim perspective that to say that this is a Muslim issue, this is inherently a Muslim issue that Muslims are against the Jews, which anti semitism is such a sensitive word to say. And of course, we don't want to be anti semitic, that's doesn't mean that we want to be anti semitic, but for people to use the phrase without any backing, yeah. And also this who, why is it that Jewish people have to monopolize this term of Semitism? Because Semitism is not a Jewish specific thing. The Semitic languages are more than Hebrew, Arabic is a Semitic language.
There are African languages, which are also Semitic. So I find it absurd and actually racist, that it is only the Jews that get to use the term Semitism to describe themselves. We are, for example, as Arabs, I am an Arab, one person I was speaking to, in Piers Morgan show, his name was on holy schmoly. And I was speaking to him and he said, You're an anti Semite. I said, I am most Semitic than you. Because he is from European extraction. His mother is European. His father is Iranian or whatever it may be.
In what world? Is it okay, for someone to call me anti that which I am, which they themselves are not. For example, if a black man, if a white man said to a black man, that you are anti black people, it would be ridiculous, everybody. Now we have people who are European Jews, who
come from Europe, okay, coming to an Arab, like myself, who speaks Arabic.
And they tell me, I'm anti semitic. I say, this is racist, that you call me that. You are racist that you call me this? You have no right to call me i You have no monopoly on Semitism, no monopoly whatsoever.
However, what they have done with this term anti semitism is they've used it so much. When I say they, I mean, the Zionists. I'm not talking about the Jews, because Jews are
not a monolith. They've used it so much, that now there is inflation on it. The currency of the label has been reduced. Everyone's an anti Semite. Now, anyone who criticizes Israel is an anti Semite. I was told that Jeremy Corbyn who's like a left wing politician and England's anti Semites, and if he's an anti Semite,
I mean, at the end of the day, the label carries no more weight. So, unfortunately, for them, what that's done is, ironically, increased anti semitism. Because it's like the boy who cried wolf, you keep crying wolf 1000 times when the when the wolf actually comes and people don't like you because you're Jewish. This is really what anti semitism is, if they don't like you because of your ethnicity, then you've punched someone who is critical of Benjamin Netanyahu, or Israeli policies with this guy who who genuinely doesn't like you because you're Jewish, who considers you to be biologically in
inferior. For that reason, you bunch those two people together. So you've created anti semitism by using the term so much, which I find is ironic.
Absolutely is
another question which I think it's interesting to get your take on this particular question. There is, of course, a number of ways that people can be active in voicing their support and be active for the cause of Palestine that can be to peaceful protest, that can be through social media, among many other outlets that people can use to voices. What do you think, particularly from a Muslim perspective, and from young Muslims, that can be quite excitable? That can be quite zealous and perhaps overzealous? What can what can they actually do? In their excitement to show to show the side of Palestine which is correct and positive and show their support for Palestine? What can they
do that can actually cause a negative impact on on the cause of Palestine? And if we can mention one verse of the Quran, from an Islamic perspective, the most true thing is our belief in God and our belief in the religion from a sonic perspective, we believe that there's no question about that. But even there, Allah says to the Prophet, peace be upon him, that if you are hard hearted and difficult towards the people, they will run away from you. And this is a prophet peace be upon him to find a messenger, he is saying, he has been told us, he has he is the prophet, he has the message from that perspective. I mean, you couldn't ask for more. But you can do something you can engage in issues
that can cause a negative issue, even if you have the truth with a capital T. So perhaps you see this in your own life, in your own experiences. How does this go down? You see people, they feel that they're doing a good job for the cause of Palestine, but to their excitement to their overzealousness, they're actually hurting it quite a bit.
Most mistakes in life, whether it's an activism or in marriage, or whatever it may be, comes about due to action rather than inaction. So if you can just bring your mic a bit closer to it comes about due to action,
rather than inaction, because the question is, a lot of people say, What should we do? Like what how can we help Palestine? What should we do? Sometimes we have to start off by saying, what should we not do?
If that makes sense? Because if we the things that if you do it, it actually has a detrimental effect? So one of those things, if you start mentioning about Jewish people, for example, and generalizing Jewish people or attacking them, because then
they will be grounds for real claims of anti semitism or something like this. Yeah. And then you are disabled and debilitated from being able to do activism. So that's one thing. Another thing you could do, which is, you know, anti the cause, if you like, is if you mentioned certain things which are against the law, whether it's through violence or otherwise, this is something which will be debilitating to the cause of Palestine.
And another thing which you could do, which is debilitating because of Palestine, is
if you glorify Hamas,
why because it's illegal to do that. It's illegal to do this. And so if you do that, they can take you to court. They can harm you. They can even if it looks like glorification, I know. For a fact, for example, when I went to Piers Morgan show,
the police was there.
And the security guard came to me. And he said to me, this has never happened before they searched me before I went inside this, I've been a security guard for such and such amount of years. And I think what happened was, they were waiting for me to say something so that the police can take me, this is what I believe they were trying to get me to do, say something against the law. So as soon as I say the police can say, well, you've just glorified the proscribed terrorist organization.
Come with us. And they will, I think they are waiting for this. So what I'm saying to you is,
you cannot do things which are against the law. Because if you do things which are against the law, you cannot, you cannot fight this fight with one hand behind your back.
So you must, if you want to be an activist, play within the system within the law. Avoid those three things I mentioned. And you will be okay. But don't worry too much. Because if you worry too much about the consequences of something, you'll never do anything.
And just as there are consequences of doing certain bad actions, there is also consequences of inaction. And sometimes in life is risky not to take a risk.
And so, yes,
bear in mind that there are some traps and some things but do what you need to do. Because the pain of regret is worse than the pain of discipline, and the pain of action, and the pain of the consequences that you get in the short term. So, activism in a place like Ireland is very important, especially in public opinion, because this is one of the countries we should consider to be a stronghold of the Palestinian cause.
Just one last question before we end this event with yourself and just like an affair for, for being with us and for your time.
From a Muslim perspective, this is something that you've been talking about, particularly in your tour in Germany, before you went to Pakistan, you've been talking about Muslim unity.
What has the cause of Palestine have to do with Muslim unity? Can we not have our own differences? And what's the connection there? And why is it important for Muslims to be unified? How are they causing this unity? I'd say from from a perspective of Ireland, because the population is quite small. There's very small subpopulation in Arctic compared to the UK and other countries, the kind of issues isn't so much about a particular sect. That's more so that people who know about it even know without much knowledge about Islam, that there's different sects, and there's different issues that are discussed there. But it's more so an issue of practicing versus non practicing, that made
you made to a level that the practicing person feels like he's at a level that he is able to decide who is going to happen and who who goes to *. And that those of you who are not practicing, that they are beyond having a conversation there there beyond preaching, that we can't have any engagement with such people. Now, from that perspective, why is it important to have most immunity and specifically for the cause of Palestine, and other similar causes? Why is it important that we show the United Front from listening perspective?
Well, there is a difference between unity and uniformity. We're in the case of the latter, everyone is meant to believe in the same thing.
Unity is not necessarily getting everyone to believe in the same thing, is getting them to work in the same direction.
And the best way to achieve unity in that way, is to remind people of number one, common goals, and number two common enemies. These are the most tried and tested and effective, traditional ways of getting people to work together.
And so there's a difference, like I said, if the you might be a Salafist or su Festo, you know, grelle, Vesto deobandis. So am I am.
Or just, you know, which is now become, you know, very famous sector, I'm joking. But it's not even with different kinds of your job is not the practice and non practicing. I'll be honest with you, I don't see it like that. But I, I see that that's not really a thing.
There are some, obviously,
people who practice the religion of Islam as a certain level who have holier than thou attitude. And that is a negative thing to have. But I don't know if I think now there is unity. In a way, I think now that there is an active awareness, people have all kinds of religious practice, everyone feels the same way about this issue. And why Muslims or non Muslims as well, like and we have to be honest here, there are people who watch this, Muslims are Muslim, and they are unified on this issue. And so like I said, there is a difference between using uniformity. uniformity is where you try and get everyone to believe in the same thing. And that is not what we're trying to do. Because we cannot do
that, as a Muslim community as 1.9 billion of us, we cannot we cannot achieve this. But what we can achieve? Is that, okay, on certain issues, for example, the Palestine issue that we will all work in one direction.
And that is a very feasible thing.
And I think that has been happening. I'll be honest, I've traveled many different countries in Canada, Germany, just recently, the Pakistan, Muslim world, you know, obviously, England, those of us that have been around like Germany, you mentioned. And there is I feel like everyone has the same opinion on this matter, this is brought Muslims together like nothing else has, in a very, very, very long time.
So I think you can see already has been achieved to some extent here. Yeah. That's probably one of the positives that came out of the this recent escalation. Now it's difficult to say that something positive has come out of it, but definitely the kind of unity that we see within the Muslim community and within wider communities within the world. That's a kind of unity that is fair.
invaluable for us to have in this issue and going further. Hopefully, we don't have to deal with this issue for much longer. But it's important to have this kind of unity within Muslim communities and other communities around the world. Would you like to Should we take a few questions we have run out of time. It doesn't have to be the building. Okay. No poor, I am pulled up stage. But just like my parents, for joining us, and if you want to see more from the hijab within Ireland, he will be in warfare tomorrow, and he will be back in the UK but we don't need to focus on that part. But he'll be in Belfast on Sunday. For sure that's the UK.
Wednesday on Sunday, we'll see
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