Dr. Jordan Peterson Clears Up Warlord Comment

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Mohammed Hijab

Channel: Mohammed Hijab

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Episode Transcript

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There was a time of persecution. And then after that,

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he went, he went to different places he went to life, which is a place outside of Mecca, he went to elsewhere 100 to a two clans two tribes. And what it was is that he was he was trying to get support for his project or the monotheistic project, because he was being boycotted, etc. He eventually got it from those who has allege these two tribes because they actually believed in the religion of Islam. This is documented black without a shadow of a doubt. This is what happened. And then it is in the Medina, is this the medieval period that you're speaking of? So this is actually technically the Mecca period? Okay, still the Meccan period. Yeah, so right before Medina literally was

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established because Medina is, the it was, it was so called after the Prophet, because Medina just literally means the city in Arabic, it was called yesterday before and then they changed it into Medina to Nebby, like the city of the Prophet. And so that's why it was kind of called Medina after that, in that time period, so you're 13 years of Medina, the vast majority, I'm not going to say it all. But the vast majority of wars that took place before, in fact, all of the wars that took place before the conquest of Mecca were defensive. So the pagan Arabs went to Medina and tried to see it better. As AB with Honda, and all of these are names of horse. In fact, according to my high in one

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scholar, there were 19 Such wars in 10 years. So that's almost an average of two wars every year. And for me, I see that actually as an evidence for profit, because the Prophet was actually fighting in these wars. He wasn't just, you know, throwing people who aren't willing to fight for him. He was fighting in them, and they were defensive was.

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So in that time period, what happened was, I'll give you one case. Okay, so let me let me interject something here. Because that's, that's, that's very, that's a very hard thing for me to, to get straight in my mind. Yes. Now.

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I would say that and the division in Islam that occurred almost immediately upon Muhammad's death, and which has not been rectified to this day. Quite the contrary. That's also you know, that's a problem for everyone. It's a problem for Muslims. It's a problem for Christians. It's a problem for everyone. And it's a problem that could really get out of hand. Now, it's not like I don't know that the Protestants and the Catholics were at each other's throats for, you know, hundreds of years. So. But that's, that's not the issue at the moment. So now, in in Islam, there's a tremendous emphasis on Christ's doctrines as well. And there isn't any evidence that Christ Himself took part in, let's

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say, wars.

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Okay, so it's hard. And I mean, what do you mean? Okay? Well, a few if you analyze Christ as an archetype, when he comes back in the second coming, he is going to dominate the world. And one can say, well, that's not the historical Christ. But when we're when we're looking at him in the way, you know, that's a reasonable, that's a reasonable.

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I understand that a judge, a judge has a judge has that that Marshal element. And I don't think it's reasonable to use the archetypal representation as an argument against the historical reality. And look, I'm not saying to you, that I know that what Muhammad did was wrong. That isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying that I don't understand how participation in those defensive wars, let's say, but then that was also followed by tremendous explosion of Islamic expansion, right, the biggest empire the world had ever seen in a very short period of time. Right at right at Europe's doors. And so and that was also followed by the severance of the Islamic faith into two major categories and

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internecine conflict there. And so there's that that stream of of, of armed conflict activity, I think that you're with respect, I don't think you're getting the history fully right here. Because well, go yep, that's fine. Go already here. The the war in German is the feeling that the wars between Shia and Sunnah, or what would then be it's not really between chanson because quite frankly, she eyes him had not been established as but the the wars of the companions, how many people died in those wars? Do we have any numbers? For maximum we can say, but it's but yeah, fair enough. Fair enough, man. And it's not like it does not Chris, it's not like Christianity hasn't

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been rife with internecine conflict. Yes, no, but the thing is, but the fact is, is that it was almost immediately after Muhammad's death that this fracturing took place among the people that were closely allied with him. And it was a bloody fracturing and it isn't obvious that it's been how was it? How, how bloody was it? How bloody does it have to be? You know, it doesn't tell you how much okay, well, let's be honest. Let's be fair. Yeah, let's be fair. Right with with the wars that took place 30 to 40 years and it wasn't immediately after because you sent them a video, the baby died. That's wrong. It didn't happen. The day he died. It happens. It's four years after it happened. So

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it's four years after how many people how many members of Muhammad's immediate family survived during that 30 years. My understanding was that most of his immediate family died in armed conflict relatively

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Your family died in his own lifetime. Yes, well, I'm not one of them, but I'm thinking of what happens after he dies facts right? Because yeah, well, first first fact. Mohamed Salah Salem, we say selasa million peace and blessings be upon him.

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All of his children died in his life. Okay, except for one. So most of the members of his immediate family and his wife died, Khadija died, his uncle Obatala died, his other uncle Hamza died, they all died within his lifetime, either due to illness, or due to some other some other cause war, for example, like one of the defensive was Hamza died. And by the way, Muhammad forgave his killer. And that's something which, which goes against the wall or thesis, because when he then conquered Mecca, or when he conquered Mecca, he was actually no fighting. I'm not sure if you know, this is called fat Hanukkah. When he went into and conquered Mecca, he didn't find anybody. It was no fighting.

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There were a few people that that were exempted. But he actually quoted what Joseph quoted to his brothers in the Quran. In the Quran, which is letter three ballet, can we do that? No blame is on you today. And so And this, by the way, is a bedrock example of forgiveness in Islam, because these were people that were persecuting him for 13 years. These are people that were that killed his uncle, like I said, there's one person called washi, who, who literally killed his uncle, and, and mutilated his body. And he said, to washi, I forgive you, but I can't I can't see your face because of how how? He said, linking to how you unmute your neck while I watch I can. He said, Can you keep

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your face away from me? Because I can't psychologically I can't be my face. But I do forgive you. He said. So he forgave people that killed his own family members. And this was after he himself attempted a treaty with the pagans called Holiday BIA. And so they broke the treaty. And that's what initiated the conquest of Makkah, which was not a conquest that was fighting. Now, if you compare this because I think the comparison if there's any comparison that can be or should be made. It's the is Jesus's Second Coming with Muhammad in the muddiman period, not in the second period, in the second period, both were being persecuted Jesus and his life and Muhammad in his in the second

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period, but Jesus, when He comes back, he will then get authority, and he will be i, he will be ruling with the iron scepter according to the Bible, he will be crushing because he will be crushing his enemies as this isn't Corinthians under his humbling his enemies others foot and killing him via violence stuff. So in fact, what the I will actually argue today that the New Testament representation of Jesus Christ in His Second Coming is way more violent than Muhammad's conquest in the Medina. Okay. Like I said, I wasn't I wasn't trying to make the case. I wasn't trying to make the case that what happened in Mecca or Medina was wrong, like so let me explain that a little bit.

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So, Christian Europe fought a defensive war against the Nazis.

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It isn't obvious that that was wrong thing that was I wouldn't say that's defensive. Well, okay, fine. But But I understand the concept of defensive war.

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America did America when America got involved in World War Two, it was not under immediate threat by Germany, and they colonized it. And here's the thing it caught it overtook Western Germany, you see, a word that has the term warlord that you use with the Prophet you've never used with Harry Truman you've never used with, with Roosevelt, you've never used with Winston Churchill, all of which conquered countries literally in wars, because I feel like there is there is a bias there, and you actually never used it with anybody else. Aside from the Prophet Muhammad in your public, and I think that's unjustifiable. I think that you have biblical prophets like Moses, you have biblical

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prophets, like, Joshua, you have you have the Jesus in His Second Coming, all of which were warrior prophets. And and and you've only used the term war will load with the Prophet Muhammad. I think that is unjustified, but I think it would be what is it that what makes someone a warlord event? If it's conquering lands, then Harry Truman is a warlord? Then, you know, and so on and so forth. And

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that's a real that's a real tough question, isn't it? What makes a warlord and what makes it just war? It's not like any of us have the precise answers to that. I thought were partly what we're trying to hash out are the emissions of the word worlds, the definition of the word world, according to Collins, is that someone who acquires force by aggressivity and violence? Well, okay, so equal sign you push back on me, so I'll push back on you to some degree. Okay. Well, it's certainly the case that the expansion of the Islamic empire was accomplished by a tremendous amount of warlike activity and that wasn't defensive. Now look, I understand that monotheism is a difficult state to

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attain the

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And that monotheistic societies have emerged in the midst of conflict throughout human society. I understand that. And I'm not even saying that there's something exceptional in that regard about Islam, although the rate at which it happened was quite remarkable. But it still it presents us with a problem, doesn't it? I mean, everyone, it presents everyone with a problem. And the problem is, well, for example, the problem is reconciling the idea of turning the other cheek with the idea of a just war defensive or an expansive war for that matter. And, of course, that issue is relevant to Islam, because Islam exploded outward, and produced the biggest empire the world had ever seen in in

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the space of a few short centuries.

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So that well, so then you ask, well, what's the spirit? What is the spirit that animated that? And is that attributable to the Islamic doctrines themselves? I don't know the answer to that. Now, let me tell you the answer to that. Okay. And this is why I want to tell you conclusively, and this will help build bridges, honestly, because we can maintain the warlord thesis, we can maintain the expansionist thesis. But here's what I'll tell you. Islam has a has a capability to be expansive. And it also has a capability of making peace treaties. And it does and it should do whatever is in his best interest, just like every country should do everything in his best interest in the pre

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modern world. We did not I think this is highly anachronistic in the pre modern world, there was no such thing as the UN. It was a realist International Relations framework, whereby everybody was fighting everyone. The Roman Empire didn't care about what you didn't care about, you, quite frankly, is expanding itself. The Persian Empire is expanding itself. And the Arabian Peninsula was in between both. And so it could have either been swallowed by those two other empires, or it could decide to in fact, we will impose our governments on them before they impose it on us. And it decided the former rather than the latter, it decided to expand. And in fact, the Prophet in his

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weakest of times, he predicted that that would happen. You know, there was one war in particular, where they were starving, and it's called hunchback, and he hit a rock and he said, foot he had room, the Roman Empire has been conquered. He hit another Iraq again, he said 40 had Faris that the Persian Empire has been conquered. And then he knocked the rock again, he said, he said this in his weakest moment, he said that the Yemen has been conquered, I see that the expansion of the Islamic empire is a proof of Islam. And you know, it's not just me, even historians say this, how Barnaby Robertson, he said, the fact that Islam spread to the Roman Empire in the Persian Empire is

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equivalent to the equivalent to Eskimos taken over Russia and America, I believe, is miraculous, if anything that this happened, I don't think is unjustified, I think actually doing pace. And then why did you stop it? Why did it stop at Europe's borders, so to speak? If it was six years, because of it wasn't successful that it wasn't, it stopped where it couldn't go further. But the point is, is that it's not like the Christians at that time in Rome, QED. I mean, they did the same thing for years, they were expanding themselves. So that's why I said, that's why I said I wasn't making a prima facie case that this was wrong. I'm trying to understand it. And so and you objected to my use

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of the term warlord, and perhaps rightly so, you know, perhaps that was an in judicious comment. I was rather shocked when I was reading Islamic history, when I encountered the degree of violence that surrounded these events. And so you know, maybe I was

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said that, I think that shows real sincerity. And, and it's one step closer to creating real, meaningful relationships between, I think, and I think your you know, your defense that, well, the world was a battleground of empires. And you know, if it's if it's pushed out from our territory or being encroached upon and dominated, then it isn't obvious that being encroached upon and dominated is the right approach, the correct approach, the most moral approach, let's say, especially because there'd be no shortage of bloodshed that would also accompany that. And so sometimes you're in a bad place. And but you know, it's not an easy thing for any of us to what would you say, mediate between

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doctrines like, turn the other cheek and love your enemy, and also, at the same time, discussed the necessity of both defensive and sometimes expansive expansionist wars, right. We all have to contend with that. And it's very difficult to contend with it. Their arguments are extremely complicated. Yeah, absolutely. Right. And I think