Earn On-Going Rewards Now
Islamic History, Dramas, Ertuğrul & The Ottomans, Nation States
Channel: Hasib Noor
File Size: 41.94MB
Shaykh Hasib Noor discusses the need for Muslims to study Islamic History and speaks about the accuracy of dramas like DiriliÅ ErtuÄrul.
Episode Transcript ©
Transcripts are auto-generated and thus will be be inaccurate and at times crude. We are considering building a system to allow volunteers to edit transcripts in a controlled system. No part of this transcript may be copied or referenced or transmitted in any way whatsoever.
So unless recommended Rahim al hamdu Lillahi Rabbil alameen wa Salatu was Salam ala rasulillah Karim Allah le he was heavy here to maintain him about Salaam Alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh and welcome back to another episode of the own feed podcast with your host should be at Hassan, super excited about today's episode because we have someone all the way from the other side.
But he's actually he's actually living in Medina and he's been living in Medina for many years now. shala he's introducing something very soon, which you're going to hear about, known as the legacy Institute which inshallah we will touch upon very shortly. But he has none other than the one and only chef Hasib. No salaam aleikum. How are you, sir?
Good to be here. like to thank you for hosting Hill and mp minifit have had long relationship for a while. So it's beautiful to see the what has grown to 100. Ilana, thank you so much for taking the time out to be here. I know you've got a really busy schedule. And as always handler when you're in the UK, it's it's because obviously every time we've met it's pretty much been over there in Medina. Right. It was a blessing opportunities. It's nice to have you on our another city called London.
Exactly, exactly. handler. So welcome to the studio. And we have some interesting discussions coming up. Hopefully, before that I mentioned legacy Institute. So let's just talk about that quickly, because it's something which hasn't been officially kind of launched yet. But we've been hearing about it for some time. So tell us a bit about that. So the legacy Institute is basically an institute that focuses on reconstructing the narrative in our own terms. So a lot of the discussions that we've had so far with many institutions, for example, like yaqeen Institute with Jehovah's today, man, and you have a number of other educational and research institutions, talking about
reclaiming the narrative. So reclaiming the narrative happens in two different ways. One of them is, obviously us speaking about our own faith in the values that we have, but also tapping into the legacy that we've had. So there has been in the past recent years, a revival of people wanting to know what our Islamic legacy is from our own, you know, lens and perspective. So what I wanted to do is to kind of create an institution which brings in specialists in the history of Islam, not just only in particularly to the physical history, but also the Islamic disciplines as well, because there needs to be a revival on two terms, one of them is understanding our past. And one of them is
understanding how we go forward in the future. So the legacy suit came about, I have like Candida, about eight to nine
specialists in different fields, people who are going to be an ottoman history specialists, mole, mobile history in India, as the history of Muslim Africa, Islamic Africa, and under those as well. And then me as far as I think three or four other people have, our specialties are in the early Slavic history, which is the life of the Prophet. So I said, I'm making it relevant to us, as well as the successors of the Prophet salallahu alaihe. Salam, and then following that after what we want to do, the main focus is,
is discussing history the way it should be making it relevant to us, number one, and what we want to do with the legacy Institute is derived instructional history. So it's not just the stories that you hear the motivational moments that you have, but what instruction do we get for our time? Where do we draw parallels? And how do we benefit from it. So that's the general idea of the legacy Institute, there's going to be a section where we have tours where we actually go physically on site. That's one of my specialties, doing 100, for the past almost 11 years, is to take people on site in Mecca and Medina. And go through the life of the Prophet sly sentiment, the way it should be
on site, knowing where the physical homes where the companions homes were, where the Quran was revealed. So it allows you to go beyond something what we call Sunday school theory, or Saturday schools theory or maktab theory, like you all know,
which is basically theory that you've been taught or the lectures that you've heard, or the multiples that you've listened to, or the parents, stories that you've heard, but to go to, what we want to do is experiential reality, to experience the history to understand the legacy that you're part of. And ultimately, the idea is that if you tap into that, and you understand that you're part of a connected chain, to a 1400 year history, it will help you to develop and appreciate the sacrifices that they've had, and fulfilling the identity that you kind of create for yourself. And I think that's one of the biggest problems that we've had right. So, legacies, who wants to fill that
void inshallah, not just discuss the contemporary issues, but to realize that we're not only a product of modernity? Yeah, we're not a product of and that has what I'm saying that it has two different connotations, modernity, the meaning the nation states that came about, and also modernity, meaning the contemporary struggle.
We're going through, we're not only a product of that, but rather we stem from a 14, you know, century legacy that we derive our guidance from. And that's the biggest claim Islam makes in reality, that we come from a source which is divine in nature, which guides our day to day affairs, being the fullness of the prophets lie Selim in the practice of the companions and their understanding. That's a nutshell.
That's a mouthful, man.
There's so many points of bounce off that I mentioned. But let's, let's stick to one which is, so you mentioned actually physically going to the site. Right, right. So one is, of course, like opening up a book and reading it, right. Which a lot of people by the way, would just think it's boring, right? Of course, like history is boring, right? Like, even me growing up, like, perception. Everyone's got this perception like, right, why, like, Why Why don't want to sit there, read more Kadima? Even if it's just like, it's boring, right? Right. So, okay, that's, I guess that's one side of things where actually, if you physically take them right to the site, that actually opened up
their eyes, and it shows actually, right, here it is in front of you, right? And then you can kind of recreate the story, right? So that's, I guess that's one side, like you said, the experience side of things we can teach them. But why Why? Why do you think that is? Like, as even as particular as Muslims? Why do we just find it boring? for like, do we honestly, I think because it was it was taught boring. That's just the reality. I mean, a lot of people when we were talking about history, we were taught in school, public school, and also University, the boring history of, you know, sometimes the country that we live in, or whatever, like, I remember American history, and it was
taught just in such a boring way that I made me like, not like history at all.
And thinking that okay, this is this is how history in general is. And interestingly, even huddling in the mud. deema says that many people think that history is something that only benefits
to tell a story. Yeah. And to entertain large crowds. Yes, he's like the, this is the biggest the person who thinks this is the biggest basically
misconception of history, because history actually tells you about what you're going to do in the future. So there's a TED talk that was talked about this guy named Alex something, I forgot his last name. And he talked about the importance of history. And he basically summarized in haldwani, stolen, how those words he didn't say he didn't attribute it. He said, basically, what what history allows you to do is judge and be able to dictate and help your future. And when you know your past, you're able to understand how to move into your future, if only you teach it in a captivating and motivating way. And part of that, I think, is people are just separated from from the past, right?
So the only history that's relevant to them is where they live. And then now, how is this gonna benefit me. So when you teach it in a way that allows them to relate to the history and that's what we said, instructional and experiential, I found that, honestly, the biggest
influence in people's lives when they come to hogenom.
And they experience the life of the prophets, I send them there. So I've had people email me back and saying, you know, they're going through marital problems. And, you know, the wife emails my wife and saying that, you know, there's been 180 degree change in my husband, because he never thought like, Islam was this deep. You know, you stand in front of the prophets, I send them you're in a place where he physically was, was tortured for Islam. It allows you to open your eyes in a different, it's kind of like, for example, you go into a place, like an orphanage, or you go to a hospital, you see somebody whose health has been taken away from them. Yeah. And you see somebody
who was lost their parents, and it helps you appreciate it more. So similarly, with history, when you actually experienced it on site, you've sat in front of a building, it's like 1000s of years old, and there's people who, who lost their lives to protect Islam, the Muslim domain, it allows you to experience and relate to it more. So I think the lack of related relatability had a lot to do with it. Yeah, I guess even in the in the Quran as well. I mean, that's what we're taught. Right? Right. When you read stories of the of the prophets or the previous nations, right, it's not it's not there for entertainment. Like it's not a storybook, like you know, yeah. This is the beginning
once upon a time and then the end happily ever after, like, right there's there's actually substance to it, you're supposed to take the right lessons from these stories, right, right. So even in the Quran, with all this, so I guess we can just extend that about any any type of history, but like you mentioned, like yourself and a few others, your your particular focus is on what we would say the sila, right. And even as students of knowledge,
really, our focus is on the clo, which should be, of course, which is very important. But then it kind of like, you get to the full effect, and then it kind of dwindles and great and no one really focuses on what happens after that. Have you have you found the same as well? Yeah. And I think that that's problematic because then we're, what happens in our mind is that we take the lessons from the life of the prophets lie Selim, and then we use them to judge the rest of humanity with so the idealism that's built in our minds from studying the prophets, liasons life and the whole of our Rashidi then it's kind of juxtaposed to the rest of the Muslims.
And we think that when we all of a sudden hear about Muslim domain, or you know, people who used to rule over Muslims, and they're not to the level of the hierarchy, then then we're kind of like disappointed, like, Oh, well, he was a Muslim. How can you do that? Well, that's the reality. You've lived in an idealism. That's not real, right? Islam is the most ideal way of life that we're trying to live up to, in our shortcomings. So history, actually, to be honest with you, those captivating stories and whatever I found, like the most amazing time just reading the history, because it's much more interesting than something fake. And that leads to like the current dramas that have been made.
It allows people to, you know, almost visualize a reality that Muslims lived in. And it wasn't perfect, but they lived according to the instruction of our faith in order to live up to those ideals. So we're now between the idealism that we're trying to, like, get rid of the idealism that we've had. But there's something else happening to now, which is there's a romanticization of the history as well, yeah, as if, like they've never committed, and they're like the pinnacle of grand year and an honor. And, and this is also slightly problematic. But I think, when we talk about history, the more I think you come across
real stories with real people who had real problems and real shortcomings. It allows you to understand that a lot doesn't ask for perfection. And one of my one of my classes in Denmark, teaching the hola photoshooting. Honestly, this one comment, like made my life came up to me says, I've never found so much hope in a law after taking a class. I was like, why he's like, if I if when I realized how horrible Omar was before Islam, and what he eventually became that we love and honor Him and like you just smile every time you hear the word Armada, right? I realized that a lot does not judge me based on my past, I see. But allows me to, you know, fulfill my potential in my future.
And that was like, bro, that's history. That's why you should study history allows you and that's what By the way, I feel a great scholar who wrote a camera for Teddy, he said the same thing. Exactly, what you mentioned, is that that's why Allah uses the examples and the whole on so that you can learn to overcome the shortcomings of those who were not perfect. But eventually ended up having a station, a high station with a las panatela as well as you would learn the stories about the most horrible of people on earth. Like, you know, for example, like Hitler didn't exist then but like Hitler, or, and you would not want to be like them. Yeah, based on how many people like curse them
and don't like them and etc. So if he said, if that enough is a benefit of history for you to learn from it, that's that's enough. Mm hmm. Interesting. Yeah. Just a quick side question. By the way, just just just just see in terms of your background, cuz I know you've traveled to many places, of course, UK being one of them. And you mentioned Denmark, Norway, you've been to recently in terms of your travels. So two questions. Firstly, what's the best place you've traveled to? But just in general, and we're not talking about history here. Secondly, like, secondly, my question is when it comes to travels, because people might think, okay, Mecca, Medina, and then Jerusalem might have
some history, but then, are there any places we can go to, in terms of our history that we can connect with? So that's, that's kind of like the second part of the question. Okay, so the best place that I've been to? That's a very hard question. Because, I mean, living in Edina, you're like, Yeah, that's true.
If I were to say traveled to, you just have to do it this way. I mean, Mecca and Medina,
coats hands down, I think everybody should just go to one of the beautiful things is we take, like almost 500 people with Luigi and the last 10 nights of Ramadan. And seeing that many British Muslims represent just like me, yeah, so I'm constantly telling my American for those Americans who are listening to this, you just got to go to exile you got to represent, you have to, you know, show the legacy we have by visiting that place, and you know, being able to visit it. And one of the things about clips is the history is actually there, and it comes alive. I mean, you're looking at the southern wall of metal oxide, that's a wall, the prophet himself saw it subtle setups. And there's
places where the Sahaba actually saw and passed by like, Sophia, and when he's going through the entrance of Jerusalem, it's still there. It's still there, like underneath the ground has been preserved. So it allows you to appreciate your history in such a way that you've never even imagined, for example, like going to Oman, etc. So outside of that, obviously, I'm a person that finds history wherever they go. So even even in London, there's a Muslim history tour you all know about Yeah. And going to Denmark there's a there's actually a tour that they do in particular with Muslim history that it's in Denmark. So, Everywhere I go, I try to find what it was the Muslim
contribution to that particular place. Now, my on my bucket list is to go to inshallah, Spain, very, very soon inshallah, in India,
and then eventually, also, I've been invited to go to Africa to a few places. And obviously, one place we've literally neglected more than anything, is the spread of Islam and Islamic history in Africa. Like beyond even understanding the I mean,
Many people don't even know the the rule of man danfo do and how he spread Islam in Africa. And that's, that's a travesty. Like it's horrible. We don't even know about the fall of the omae IDs and understand where do they go, they went to Morocco. So the strong Moroccan history, as well as Libya, and then the north of the north of Africa, and Egypt, of course, has a strong history, even in the Ottoman period.
So for us to tap into these different narratives, you know what it is? A lot of people think it's, oh, this is not my history. So why should I learn about it? Yeah, would this leads us to something else? Prior to 90 years ago, we did not ascribe to anything except the Muslim domain. Hmm. The idea of our nationalities is only less than 100 years old. So when you're ascribing yourself to the nation state that came about of the end of the Muslim domain,
a lot of people don't understand that Yo, only your parents and your grandparents ascribed to an identity, which prior to that 700 years of Muslims didn't ascribe to. Hmm. Wow. So when you tap into that narrative, you're actually tapping into your own history, you're actually tapping into something that Muslims ascribed themselves to the Muslim domain, it was under the Ottoman. So like, for example, right now, if I tell you, are you autumn and you're like, I'm not Turkish? Yeah, the construct of that nation state idea is what split the Muslim domain Hmm, you understand, I'm saying, so when somebody says I'm Pakistani or Indian, I'm African, etc. This didn't exist over nine years
ago. Like the country is 80 years old or 100 years old, like who would have just said, Well, I'm Muslim, I'm Muslim, or I'm Ottoman Ottoman, meaning a Muslim under the Muslim domain. And the one of the most beautiful things is under the Muslim domain. You are considered Ottoman based on the millet system, meaning it doesn't matter your religion. So there's Ottomans who are Christian, there's Ottomans who are Jewish, there's Ottomans who are Muslim, and they didn't differentiate anyone as long as you lived under the Muslim ummah. And that's exactly what our prophets I said, My thought is that the Muslim Ummah is one of them is almost a dour. Anyone who is under the prophet SAW after the
Prophet systems life or during his life until the day of judgment as part of the home of Mohammed slicin. So the Autumn is actually implemented, that they're like, yo, you live in Are you live within our domain, your citizen? Your, your Ottoman? Yeah, you're not looked at as anything.
And then there's obviously omitted Java, because we have almost a doubt on matilija. java is all those who accepted the call of the Prophet mama sly setup. So when you lived under the Ottomans, people ascribe their
themselves their identity to the Muslim domain. So they would say I'm from Sindh, but I'm Ottoman. Like the Africans, they are under Durrani Empire there, they would say we're, we're African. But we're Ottoman. Yeah, so same, similar with North Africa, etc. So the idea is, when you're tapping into that, you should tap into not the constructs that have been made, you should tap into it understand based on how Muslims viewed themselves in that period of time. Hmm. Interesting. So you mentioned Okay, so we've spoken about, you can just simply learn about history by reading books, and go to the sites themselves within you mentioned another point, which is nowadays you have the the
to God is like, through these dramas, people are a lot more conscious about history. And I can tell you the first one that I watched, which is a llama, alright, so that was like the first kind of like, a dramatization of a particular, you know, individual, not just anyone that can relate to this is like a hobby, right? So for me, when I first watched, I was like, wow, like, everything's quite onpoint. Personally, I think that in Arabic, right, the, the, the the acting, the accuracy, everything was really on point. Right. So that was like, the first thing that came across was okay, brilliant, and many people speaking about it. But now you have like, you know, you have the
attitude. Right, right. Which is, which is everyone? Like, let's not let's not hide away from everyone is still good. Right? Whether you watch it or not?
And I don't know, I don't know, those of the people who are secretly watching it as well. They're trying to say, I'm not interested in ethanol, and they're watching as well, right? So you have you have all of these, but everyone knows about your total. Now, because of this drama. A lot of people before this, they had no clue who this man was.
And so let's focus on this one for now. So what's like, what, firstly, what's your take on?
What's your take on this? This is the whole drama.
Okay, so listen, when it comes to the, for example, you mentioned the armor series.
Honestly, the first person to tell me about any drama series like this, prior to that was the message like we've all seen them. Yeah. Right. And the message was like, it was so powerful. It actually was the only seal people knew for many years. And people like, even now, because it's so old. They don't even know it. Yeah. So the first drama series that I heard about was from my dad, okay, and my dad is like the last human being that don't ever tell you to go watch a movie. Literally like he's like, no. And so when he told me he's like, watch it. I'm like, Are you serious? Cuz he's like a watch it. And he's like, I've been telling my non Muslim coworkers. Yeah, at the
His job to watch it. And he's like, and I was like massively surprised like my dad is the last one being would watch any movie for sure. But much drama series. So I started watching it and when I started watching it, it's all modeled the Alon homemaking pull off. Yeah. And when I saw all mode, I turned it off immediately. I was just like upset. Okay?
Like, wait, that's not what it looks like, and you know, whatever has been in the way, but then my dad was like, No, trust me. So I watched the whole thing. And dude, I've never been like, so affected by a series ever. Like, there's times where you just gotta like, turn it off, because it's that powerful emotion. And like you said,
that series in terms of accuracy was for scholars, some of the some of the greatest scholars of sila worked on the script on that just a man may Allah free him from from prison, and Chicago have authority ship use of a court of law in a crumbly altomare. So these four scholars worked on the script. So it's in terms of accuracy is one of the most accurate things you will find. Now, there are three things that which again, spoiler alert, for those people who are listening, I'm just gonna, you know, like, I was saying, funny. He made a he made a video about something in total called target out. Yeah. And somebody was like, Hey, you should have said spoiler. equals, like,
history is the biggest spoiler.
so anyway, being so often gonna be switched on. So just Oh, for sure.
Yeah, so just, you know, maybe you want to do something where you guys can have timestamps, but um, when it came to a three things number one, like Rihanna, and why she's like, whole love triangle. Yeah, this is like, you know, yeah, they just had to put that there because it's MVC and, you know, yeah, that thing made no sense. Number two, they did not focus on some of the most pivotal moments like the Battle of bed didn't hurt as much as they should have. Okay, because that those are pivotal moments in the life of a model the loan was even if you don't talk about the clo. And lastly, I'm actually glad about this. They didn't depict the Sahaba the way they really look like okay, and I'm
glad about this. You know, why? Because when we watch the message, like bro for the rest of my life, I always always imagined be that like that. Or Hamza? You know what I mean? So like, ruined my head, like every time I think about a workout, I would think so the depictions of the Sahaba are so off example it looks like straight Persian bro.
He didn't look like Persian. He actually he was balding. And he was chubbier. Yeah, like they make them look like tanks, you know. And like Hollywood is just like a beach. So, though I think that's a good thing. And obviously the there is a controversy, the controversy of the scholars discussing whether you should depicts a hobby or not is a difference of opinion among scholars, I take the view of my teachers and she hates him and only Sharif, the great scholar and Mexican would saying this is allowed as an educational experience for people especially in our time, we're audio visual, and we're so separated from our history, that it's actually a help and a good thing. And then leading up
Arturo is a is was an amazing series in the way they scripted it and inserting Islamic themes there, which in reality never happened. But it's okay. Right. So the idea was we take a reality of history, but then dramatize the entire thing, and maintain the overarching chronology of the Muslims, as well as the themes that were present presented there. So one of the most powerful things about Arturo is the idea of a noble man, a man who lives based on the the characteristics of what Islam teaches a man to be like, yeah, to take care to be honorable and to never lie and to never cheat, and even if it's against himself, supporting the weak. So, the idea basically, the archetype of the of the men
of the Muslim man was presented in a leader called Arturo.
And then you have the second aspect of look at look at how powerful the CEOs presented a nurturer
and, and it gave you a practical example of how to take instructional lessons from the life of the prophet SAW the whole thing in fact, if somebody does this by the way, for the elfi crowd, it just go to the whole thing and just take out all the moments of sila was doing was talked about by empanada B and by
D Demeter and all the other characters and just make leka literally do the entire sila. from season one till season I think for you can do all of the life of the prophet SAW Selim through their stories literally the whole thing is there everything and what they did is the powerful moments that was in the life of the prophets, I said them they showed how you can help you know, overcome your own difficulties and, and moments of happiness as well etc.
So, that aspect is is just on point. As far as the overarching historical narrative, the major events are accurate, the major events like you know, for example, the chi tribe coming to Anatolia
or total being who he is the fact that he married his name, his cell phone, and then I'm spoiled majors major spoiler alert, all right.
The fact that he he died didn't was buried next to her. And so, yeah, right, that did not happen in the series that like destroyed everybody's like taste. Yeah, so you didn't know that.
I'm sorry. But the point being is a
overarching themes were pretty much accurate with a few exceptions with a few exceptions. One of them is, for example, and this is the romanticization aspect of it. There was no discussion of the ambassador to FIFA. Absolutely none. And the reality is this, the seljuk Empire was actually in support of the besitz. They were considered assaulted under the ambassador. And during the ambassador, there were seven different empires that existed during the time of the ambassador, the Sadek were one of them. Right? And the mameluke were on the other side, the other side of the Arabian Peninsula. And then you had the Cubans as well. And then you have the North Africans,
there's four for there. And then you had the Romanians in the endless. So the Muslim Empire was not your ideal color for like you saw in the color for Argentina. And that teaches us lessons from it is that look, there were differences among Muslims. But then they, a lot of them were, were localized kingdoms or salt, salt on its domains that did not negate to the lava.
And that is why I'm so guilty. The funny thing is, when he talks about the domains and undos, he's like, and we're not even going to talk about them. He has a book called tidy philokalia. The history of the caliphates. He said, we're not even gonna talk about them because they were a caliphate that did not that negated the real Caliphate of the ambassador's, okay. So the idea of the caliphate was very strong, even among the sultanates. And Arturo did not talk about them at all. And also they made the caliphate of the ayyubid seemed like just some, you know, so you know, the Al Aziz, right? Yeah, he was a real guy. And they made him look like he's, you know, some kid who doesn't know what
he's doing. And reality. That was not the case. The guy was a strong man. He's the grandson of Sahaja. Yogi. And they also brought in actually a very famous scholar named Dean, who was the judge of if you remember, yeah, yeah, they made him look like he takes a bribe. Yeah, that's really horrible man. Because that man was one of the most righteous scholars available at that time. So So these kind of inaccuracies? You know, it might play a big role thinking that, oh, Muslims are just taking bribes. And no, no, no, no, no, the you bids were very strong at a certain point. And that's why the subjects intermarried with them. So Allah Dean actually married the sister of Al Aziz in
the, in the series, but in reality was as nice. So that's also small inaccuracy in there.
And overall, the idea is, the series is amazing. In one or two main ways, if that was the only reason that I'm that would be good enough. Number one, it actually shows you, you know, how human beings were imperfect. And also the ideals that they lived up to the identity that like they kind of that they drew from, in their day to day lives. And that's why when you saw the Seattle lessons, they were so powerful. Like, remember when the cage has been kicked out? And like they don't have anything? And what do they do they give the story of the profit center being exiled from Mecca. And that's like, wow, you can actually see people who go through real suffering. Yeah, but they draw
lessons from the life of salsa de la isms is what you said, basically making it relevant 100% initially, and it's so beautiful, because it's not only just relevancy, there's a difference between like, you go on site, and it's, you see it in front, yeah. And then you see an entire series, and that's why I really recommend it, maybe, inshallah we can work on it someday, is that honestly what I want to do, one of the things I'm working towards, is like, massively fund, more series to be made. So what you do is you provide specialists to just work on this on this, you get ghost riders, to write the script, the historical accuracies are just filmed, and then are checked, and then you
make more series. That's how people learn. So I would love for people to learn history in that way.
Very good. Let's come back a bit because just for like a history one on one lesson, especially because a lot of people just a lot of you might not even know about it, you know, the series or those who are watching, it might just think, drama and
enjoying this, so you know, but so coming all the way back then, because we just want to know like in terms of the relevance in a way it was absolute, so relevant for it. Why was he such a pivotal figure in history, right. So, starting from the beginning, of course, this man definitely existed, we know that for sure. And he was the son of this man called Suleyman, Shah. Right. But why why do you think they picked up total force and not because we know who his son was a man who later on is considered the founder, Ottoman. So why do you think they picked at all is it just because they wanted a longer further series? You know, What was he like, actually, the pivotal figure that we're
seeing him to be in the in the action series, okay, so check this out. I'm gonna tell you something that this needs to be said.
Okay, when we discuss any element of just a science or even a discipline, we have to understand that there's Specialists of this field. Of course, I am not an ottoman historian in any sense of the word. I'm a person that has interest in history. Yeah, my specialization is the early Islamic conquest and the early early Islamic period in general, which is left the whole of Russia. There are people who are a specialist who deserve to talk about this in a much deeper way. But what I will say is, what I what I do know is that our total, the reason why he was chosen as as you said, is he's the figure that basically allowed for the establishment of the Ottoman state, the Ottoman domain.
And that was due to a number of reasons. So I'm going to give you an overview of that. When the Mongols basically came, they decimated the Muslim domain and lands all the way until they got to Anatolia. And what they did is they attacked the seljuk Empire until they enforced them to pay them taxes. Okay, so the Muslim sell Jukes, basically ended up being under the rule of the Mongols. And some would consider this even selling out to some, you know, if you were looking at it from a very postmodern perspective, they weren't set they're just trying to preserve the Muslim domain. So what eventually what happened is the seljuk Empire kind of completely broke down and that Empire and the
the the the, the Turks that were under them, they split up into what's called smaller kingdoms and among the kingdoms was our toodles kingdom. And as they were called begums, basically small states that comprise of independent rule templates.
And as you know, the Mongols destroyed everybody, like they destroyed the the holidays, which also is not mentioned in their total was missed, like a huge empire, huge empire, which was in a lot of stone, and areas have obviously sinned and an alien, and they killed 2.4 million people and just head off
because they, they had an uprising against them. Then they came to that and they killed the Gaddafi they destroyed the Khalifa and killed 1 million people there. And they created because they're just so vicious. They and if and if they had not kept coming, until they reached a place called Angel booth where the Muslims actually gathered, and the Mamelukes led that which is also not mentioned in our total until season five. Okay.
The idea of a very powerful meme looks hold on by the name of lawhead bebidas.
That soul bond never lost the battle in his life. Okay, and he lived during our total time and our total makes a pact with him and season five spoiler
so he makes a pact but he's never mentioned in the entire series. That guy was one of the most like dopest G's in all of Islamic history. He never lost the battle against the Crusaders or the Mongols. So what happens is they
make a stand on the Battle of angels against the Mongols and they beat them they defeat them if they did not defeat them the historians would have said the Mongols would have taken over Mecca Medina really they literally it stopped them from coming into the into the holy lands and all that stuff. So it's actually stopped the Mongol push and defeated the Mongols and allowed the Muslim domain to literally exist after that. One of the most beautiful lessons of this and allowed me to actually like okay, like what happened to the Mongols? And I'll tell you why it all ties in Turturro is it allows you to understand that Allah for in one of the only times in history made these people accept
Islam. The Mongols accepted Islam Yeah, so the Mongols they they they took over the Muslim domains yeah they had they did they massacred and didn't like you know raping and pillaging as you can imagine to the to the worst degree. Like one of the one of the leaders of the Muslims. They made him eat gold until he died. Wow. Like this is just one
absolute savagery. But they ended up deferring over themselves after Ganga Han passed away and Olga de Haan took over and then his sons decided they couldn't agree. So they divided themselves into four eliminates three out of the four ohana is accepted Islam. Wow. And it's just mind blowing, mind blowing because they appreciated knowledge. they appreciated the arts. And that is why even Ivana son, there's a whole section, which people called the Hazara, who are the remnants of those Mongol hunters who accepted Islam.
And that is why it's very interesting. When you talk about our total and the historical significance of why they chose him. It might have been actually for two main reasons. Number one, are today's life, there's like almost nothing known about so when there's nothing known about somebody the details you can kind of fill in. Yeah, and that's literally the entire story of our total is filled in, except the major events will have that when we know, for example, like his sons, we know his wife. Why? Because a lot of people think, oh, Richard never remarried. Well,
right, right. So it actually is known to possibly have more than one wife and so these kind of
Like obviously again, the idealism problem. Yeah. Because Oh, it didn't fit my my perception of what's ideal romanticizing it. And the second reason also I think, is because it allows a
starting point yeah, which you can grow from an entertainment and it will be like a never ending series. So after after a total there'll be a small everybody knows that already. There's gonna be another series called this month and after a small is gonna be it's gonna be old Han. And
and also space, remember entertainment based on how much viewership and money you get at the end of the day. So if we're interested, ideally, you have a series of like 20 years, talking about the establishment of the of the Ottoman domain. Yeah, all the way until obviously, you have Mohammed Fattah, which I think they're going to redo the record. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, no doubt, like everybody's into the Bahamas. The problem is, though, Mohammed Fattah ideally, the main thing he did is, is the is the conqueror of Constantinople, Istanbul, right, modern day symbol.
And then after that, pretty much his life was interesting policies that, you know, are not necessarily ideal, even amongst Muslims in his in his policies. But again,
the reason I think Arturo's resonates with people so much is because of the themes we talked about the powerful imagery, it has more to do with entertainment than it has to do necessarily with his story itself. Because we don't know much about it. I mean, I've spoken to like Professor iacob, from his temple university. He's one of the most formal scholars in the Ottoman history. He's actually from his British, okay, but he moved to assemble University, and he's a professor of Ottoman history, as well as Islamic history in general. And we've had, you know, amazing conversations about this aspect. And ultimately, it's about the idea of people maintaining their Muslim identity under
the Ottoman domain.
And I think that's why they chose Archer or general along. At what point by the way did did the Mongols come to accept Islam. So this was in the later 15th and 14th centuries. So what they did is they'll have dates when they separated. And they had
control over the Muslim rule, what they allowed. What they essentially did is allow Muslims to live and according to their,
their faith, and anyone they control, they said, live according to your faith, and the scholars were very, very widely accepted. They allowed them to spread there was no persecution of religion.
Either later, they'll hunted stage. When that happened, what is the dude's palette is the same concept of her baby. And the life of the prophets lie Selim, the prophets have signed a pact with the Polish for 10 years of peace. And the war would end and what does it essentially do as one of our teachers should have devotional faith you mentioned in Medina, the best way Islam has spread, and will spread is to is to have righteous Muslims in a society. And that's literally you see that in the Mongol period. So in from like the 13th 15th century, you have the Mongols accepting absolute freedom of religion, the scholars having a space, and eventually working their way up to the courts
of the Mongol leaders and influenced them to such an extent they accepted Islam, literally, we know their names, and the scholars that live them on their time. And there's a really, really nice book if you're interested in that period. Because literally, they they, they dominated from, you know, a good 300 years, it's called Ganga, Han and the making of the modern world. It gives you a lot of fill in for for the background of our total and the time period that he lived in. And then the rest of you kind of have to just fill in, you have to know about the Mamelukes. You have to know about the cell jokes. And there's a number of works, you can read about that. But then you when you
construct the entire picture for yourself, you see what the Muslim Ummah lived through. And you look at the savagery that the Mongols had. And then when you look at what we're going through, now you're like, wait, this is not the worst the Muslims have been. Yeah. And that's why history is so cool. Because when you look at how badly how bad it got, and then you're talking about the fall of the Muslim domain in 1924, comparing to what we're going through now, it's not as bad as what the Mongols did. in many senses. I'm talking about two point filming 2.4 million genocide in one city elata one son. So what does it make you do it makes you look and hope for the future? And generally,
I think there's a lot of benefit in historically tying into what you may be interested in the in the drama series that you watch. Yeah. And another quick question about how far the Ottoman Empire actually extended because I know already at the beginning, you've said that not so long ago, people were describing themselves and they were saying we Muslims, but even if you said ultimately didn't mean necessarily your attack, right. So how far just to give us an idea how far did it spread to the entire North Africa and went to
the south of as as influencing Somalia and the surrounding
Areas of Ethiopia, etc, as far as to the borders of Mongolia, right. And then you had literally into Europe, control Greece and Italy at one point as well, was covered under Muslim control. And then they lost it for a period. So there was a period of massive loss of these lands in Europe, particularly, Hungary, Bulgaria, Greece, Cyprus, Italy, like we said,
we're under Muslim control at some point. And that's why
when you talk about modern constructions of what it meant to be part of these countries or the states, it all of it is based on how we look at the idea of the nation state. At the end of World War One when the Muslim domains were literally split up by the empires that one, so the British, and the allies that, that won that war are the ones who literally cut up the entirety of this Muslim domain and sold it to the highest bidder, which they had contracts with. So Sykes, Pico, the British Mandate of Palestine, and then the Saudi state without the disease. And you guys know, the story of Lawrence of Arabia, and how the influence of the British and working with the Saudi state occurred
in that particular part of time. So this is something that we live from to this day. And then the British occupation of Pakistan in India at that time, yeah. And then a British occupation, that which wasn't lasting too much for in a lot of stuff as well, in the 1840s. All of these things when, when we came out of it, it created actually an identity, which was foreign to us, not the nation state, the idea of nations focusing on their nationality, rather than a domain, which they all belong to, which, which was decentralized. The Muslim domain, was not a authoritarian leader, which ran day to day lives, the Muslim domain was decentralized. So every portion of the Muslim world was
controlled by a leader. And that leader collected taxes and ran the functions of that particular example, like Muhammad, Ali Pasha and Egypt, or you have sinned and etc. And then they report it to the, to the, to the, to the Caliph, or the main Sultan, which was, for example, at the end of it still thought that Hamid Fanny, and that is why it leads me to another thing we talked about our total, but there's, there's that there's another drama that's kind of making its way up, which is pi test of that Hamid.
So our total,
gives you the idea of what it was like for Muslims to establish that Muslim domain within that time, and again, with the overarching themes of, of, of the idealism they tried to live up to from the prophets, lessons life and the chivalry and honor etc. Pi test, Abdul Hamid actually gives you a real perspective of what the policies were within the Muslim world, what eventually led to the,
to the fall and, and splitting of the Muslim Ummah, what were the causes of that? So you have two, one of them, which is internal one of them, which is external. Yeah. And pi, Dr. Hamid allows you to, like really see how foreign powers kind of like joined against the Muslim domain.
And that's very powerful. Yeah, it allows you to see like, hold on a second. There are people who are considering themselves enemies in the world at that time. But they joined forces against the the power of the atom, because they were just so strong. Yeah. And the Muslim domain had had this kind of issue. The second issue that led to the cause of the splitting of the Muslims is that literally, unfortunately, the Muslim leaders of some of these areas,
they started to vie for leadership, they started to internally disagree. So this internal combustion among the Muslim domain, led to led to also weakening as when when you don't have a strong body, which is supported by every part of its, you know, branches and limbs, then it will allow for foreign power to influence so when you watch the turn of the Hamid, don't just watch it for the drama and you know, like what's going on, watch it in the overarching theme of what's going on. It's one man trying to literally hold the entirety of Europe for just literally coming and being resource driven savages. I mean, that's exactly what it was. And that's why Shashi Tharoor in one of his
books, and glorious Empire is a must read. You know why? Because the idea that
the Imperial colonizers came into the countries to bring civilization is complete nonsense. It's complete nonsense. They were resource hungry, driven. So coming to the colonization of Africa, or the colonization of your of Asia, is all because of the the hunger for wanting those resources, and decimating our educational institutions, decimating our economic institutions. And when you think about the contributions Muslims have made in that period of time, there are none. Why? Because the Muslim domain was destroyed in 1924. And the period of decline did not allow for the contributions to increase but at the same time, what the scholars did, and and science
And people who,
people who had contributions, they engage the problems that existed. So they actually wrote about, and now in a language of what happens if the Muslim domain is now split up. And we learn a lot of lessons from that, for example, like Mona, I certify the autonomy. So his writings are literally was born 1863 and died in the mid 19th century, right or early 19th century. So he lived literally that time. And he's a great scholar from South Asia. So when you read his writings, he's engaging, that's that that time period, what it is, like, when we've lost everything. For the first time in Muslim history, we've lost the entirety of the Muslim domain, there's not even a single one left. Right.
And then you have the, the idea now, how are Muslims going to live autonomously? You know, independently.
And it's very, it's very good to engage that history in that sense.
I think the summary is there's a lot, there's a lot, there's a lot, there's a lot to know. And I guess we can't even attempt to cover
episode of the podcast, but I want to touch on, you know, how even in editorial By the way, you have, you have a lot of what they call a hairnet. Right. Right. Right. Right trail taking place, right? Like, we're talking in house, you know, like Muslims, we're talking even family members, right. So I think when I had a previous conversation with you, you said like, this is real, like, this was, this was like an integral to the downfall of Muslims especially. So let's talk a bit about that. And also, because we're talking about making history relevant as well, right, just bringing it into
it might be controversial, but just bringing it into our time.
You know, what's happening now, okay, Muslims, and sort of, like, internal battles that we're having, you know, right. It's a bit of a deep question, but let's let's discuss, okay. So first of all, from the from the series, or Turo itself, we're talking about the piano or the Hornet or the trees in or the deception that you had within the one figure that represents that which was like the dopest actor in the whole thing, probably, in terms of sad that didn't come back. Right, sadly, didn't compact was one of the most accurately depicted individuals in that entire thing. Yeah, he was a person that knew how to manipulate the cell jewkes. So that if, if you were to kill the
Sultan, they would rob price against them. So you know how to manipulate
Dean sons. So when Allah Dean
was killed, he knew how to manipulate his son to take power. This is real, this is not any kind of thing. And eventually, what he did is he killed two of our Dean sons, and his wife. So the guy was like, you know,
like the poster child of what it means to basically commit treachery against the Muslims that sort of domain for his own benefit, this one guy, and this kind of also fed into when the subjects were under the Mongols.
There were people who were like, why are we accepting this level of humiliation? And there was a discussion of being a Why are we giving taxes to the Mongols when we can have autonomy and just fight against them? So some people, they literally believe that we can't, we can't stand against them. So we just have to accept it at this point in time.
The idea of this treachery and treason or working for your own benefit
is obviously something that we see in our time. I mean, the nation states that came about were because people made deals, they cut deals with colonizers. Yeah, this is just a historical reality. So when you're looking at it, as some of the remnants of that remain to this day. And that's why history is so important. It allows us to see the reality in which it is.
And obviously, the development of those countries is came and stemmed from that. But then what you have now hamdulillah is you have a rise of a number of Muslim leaders, which are re identifying with the identity of Islam rather than the nation state itself.
And that is very important, because remember that the idea of the nation state is only less than 100 years old. We identified with the Muslim domain for hundreds of years prior to that. So I think ultimately, the revival that you're seeing coming about comes from a sense of self awareness. Yeah. So the more we as a community are aware of our legacy and our identity, that was for 700 years. Yeah, the more we stop causing divisions and divisive rhetoric based on your nationality, your ethnic Pingala, your, your Indian in that person's of honey and this person is from any part of the Arab world. You know, Moroccan and Algerian and Tunisian and whatever.
The idea is that when we start to attribute and identify with
A history that we've literally been had forced amnesia on us, were people who don't hold our values and ideals constructed a narrative of history for us. It'll allow us to draw from the strength of unifying. And the more we have that rhetoric among our community that listen Islam is what unites us, Islam is what gives us strength, we will inshallah stop people from
you know, continuing their selfish wants for for power or leadership for for the for their own good, but rather for the greater good of Islam and Muslims. And how do you start, you're starting to see that now. Like, we all we see the horrible events that are happening in the world, and we kind of like, you know, you start feeling like, when is the good gonna come? But you also have to notice the good, many of these Muslim countries came from infringe secularism. Right. So they're coming now into a democracy, which they're moving forward towards,
you know, reinvigorating their Islamic identity through the the modern constructions of the states. And it's, it's a process for all we're sitting here in our seats, you know, judging a lot of the Muslim lands, and you don't understand that they've been decimated for 100 years. Literally every aspect from political to economic to social was decimated, they had to rebuild. So when you when you see that end goal and what they're trying to reach and what they came from, from Turkey to to Malaysia, to countries in Africa,
even the Palestinian issue right now, you realize that we're, we're in a transformation period, we're in a period of transformation. You and I right now, if you look at the times between the Mongols, taking and decimating everybody, and the rise of or teutul and aasmaan. Yeah, and then or Han men, particularly the Ottoman, the Ottoman domain, we're literally in that transformation stage. So that's the beauty of the series, right? So when you look at it, like, oh, wait a minute, the Mongols literally decimated everybody destroyed the Muslim domains, but that was gone, man. Yeah, life is over. So it happened before. So that transformation period was built on the backs and
sacrifices of men and women who have held to the ideals of, of what Islam taught them. And when you when you when you've attached yourself to that kind of identity, it allowed Muslims to join and reinvigorate the idea of the Muslim domain and to lasted until 1924. And it's not going away hummed enough. Yeah. The prophets I said, mentioned that to us. hamdulillah. Angola. Just on one kind of last point about the the show itself about a total, I guess you have you have one extreme, which we've kind of touched on, which is, you know, like watching the show, not looking into the history at all romanticizing the idea. I guess that's one, one extreme issue, just watching it
And then you might have like, the other side, which is people not watching it at all, because they're just like, you know, like, I don't watch it. And you know, they might even give Islamic reasons for it. Right. Now, there's music and this woman dressed in a certain way, right? So I don't know, like, would you? would you would you say like, just let it be kind of thing. And you guys carry on the way you are? Because you've got your reasons? Or do we actually encourage people, maybe you should kind of like, well,
this is starting to become like a film.
I'm trying not to know but it is, which is good. Because I essentially which which I'm leading to this palette are
fit is so vibrant, that it's Islamism alive, it's an organic system, it and what that means is that it caters to every person's individual, you know, palette, and also situation. So it is an aspect of it called multilingual stuff that you take into consideration everybody's scenario and situation. So some people, for example, they don't feel comfortable with the Sahaba being depicted. And there's a great number of scholars that have that view, and I respect you ally, you don't need it, and you're good, and you're a man and you're moving forward to your life. That's wonderful. But what I have a problem is when you go to somebody else, which is struggling in their faith and trying to understand
how to come closer to Allah, and they're so separated from any identity of Islam and the history in the 14 centuries of all this stuff, and you're telling them out of this is completely now just keep it to yourself, and let them appreciate it. And, and that's why for me, if somebody doesn't want to watch it, then it's up to you. For whatever reason your your personal reasons are, that's good. But Islam is vibrant enough for us to you know, consider the the spectrum of differences amongst one another, that I accept your your reasoning is valid. But I also need you to understand that I live in the real world. And we're looking at 60 to 70 to 80% of Muslims who are separated from their
history, separated from a reality that existed for 700 years.
So my full respect to you. Because in the house, do what you need to do and let other people as well enjoy and benefit from something that I think has much greater benefit beyond the perceptions of of harm that may exist and that's just my humble opinion of the whole item and the opinion of many of my friends.
Among them like I said she had him on his journey from Mecca who has the who had the same view, when was the view of muscle cell armor came out? So yeah, if Ahmad is okay, trust me, I think are totally fine to go inshallah Yeah, of course, some final tips as well for for people who are looking to maybe not just read up about this right but just history in general. I do have questions. Yeah, just some practical tips. You know, of course, you can watch the series, you can watch videos, maybe some books you might be able to recommend, like, what's the starting point for someone who's just about to, you know, take an interest in? That's a beautiful question because honestly, the starting point
for all of us is the life of the prophets relies on you have to learn the life of the Prophet forget, if you don't like history, just have to know it. Yes. And we derive our instruction and guidance from, from draw drawing analogies from the life of the Prophet size them to our lives, in which you can see the entirety of our total is based on that the entirety of any Islamic series is going to be based on that is knowing the life of those who lost their lives. And I mean, I honestly advise everybody to listen to podcasts, like the podcasts of Shahada nostra zhongda, the podcasts of *house of Kali, there's 110 episodes, so go have fun, right? Also, if you if you're into reading
books, in the footsteps of the Prophet by Dr. tariq ramadan amazing book, it's also available on think book, audio book on audible.com, or whatever. There's a that's stem. There's a number of other books as well in the life of the system. But I think these these three, I think sources are more than enough. There's a sealed nectar by Sharon buck 40. There's an order to theirs in other languages. So that's the first step. The second step that I think everybody just needs to know as well. It's part of understanding how Islam was applied. After the time of the prophets, I saw them and that is the companions they're the ones who literally set the foundations for our Islam today.
So for example, if it wasn't for I'm going to hop on the Turks would have never accepted snap.
So the Turks accepted Islam, based on the rule of
Islam also reached send in one son and Pakistan in the life of Earth man and their Mohammed Qasim, etc. So you have to know the lives of the Holy photoshooting. And there's one book series that more than enough, Mashallah Dr. Elissa lobby, he did a walker Amato's man alley in Hudson, because a lot of people think that there's only four, there's five, yeah, read that series. There's more than enough. And obviously, there's a lot of people that have done audio series as well on their lives. And just, you have to tune or tie yourself into this history. And then after that,
you know, I my first recommendation is you seek knowledge from specialists in the Muslim history that you're that you're looking for, like, for example, Dr. yaku, inshallah, they're going to publish a suggested reading list for Ottoman history.
There's the Omega dynasty that came after there's a book now on domains, there's a book on the ambassador, that has been published by Dr. salovey, as well, for example, and then you can kind of then construct everything else based on your Further reading. And that's where you start the starting point for us. And our history always is the Prophet Mohammed Salah license. So if you're all interested about Ottoman history, you know nothing about the prophets life? Got a kind of question a little bit, you know, so that's essential. It's like Muslim essentialist, you have to know the life a little colossal asylum, and the whole affair, and then you you realize where the
greatness of the Ottomans the greatness of the Muslims, the greatness of the moles in India, of the Muslims in Africa of everywhere, where it stemmed from so on. Very good point. And that's brilliant. We're coming. I mean, we're coming right towards the end of the of the show now, have a golden question for you, as you've probably been told many times, which is about the legacy Institute. When are we going?
When are we going to actually, you know, see it shallow. We're in the final stages of release, we've done a episode of the car that's called merciful conquest of hip hop, where it's actually literally in the midst of our modern Jerusalem cuts, inshallah, it'll be released.
I don't want to give dates and within probably within a year, there's a number of publications as well, including the life of the Prophet Sai cinema through the historical sites. Okay, so it'll show you literally the site and then it'll be made as a book, you know, macdrive ask everybody to make up for me inshallah, in this endeavor. May Allah bless endfeet for the invitation. And I really appreciate you guys inviting me y'all saw this beautiful studio and increase in public and you guys just works. I mean, I mean, we really appreciate your your time. And of course, we wish you all the best in your future endeavors and with the legacy Institute, which we're going to see
and of course, we're the only we have the history as well and we have lots of inshallah, new videos coming up as well. So that's a plug to our viewers and listeners, make sure you subscribe to the channel, and keep an eye out for the new content coming as well. Of course, we Thanks for having me.
For taking up his time, all the way from Medina but we didn't even speak about the US actually.
But hamdulillah but yeah, we thank him for his time and we hope you benefited Of course, one thing that he mentioned, which is really important is of course, you know, we're not experts in history, especially when we're talking about human history so we're not exactly experts. So you know, if you want if you want to find out more than you need to do more research inshallah, hopefully this podcast was a start of something for you, whereby you can now take more of an interest in history, but like you mentioned, start with the sirata prophesized lamp, and then take it from there inshallah. For myself, sure beard. I've really enjoyed this episode, subscribe to our YouTube and as
on iTunes as well for more podcasts coming your way very soon. Until then, I said mid to late here.