Channel: Hacene Chebbani
Screening Of The Shares In The Stock Market By Sh Hacene Chebbani
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salatu salam ala Shafi musashino Medallia It was obvious, right?
So as as promised before, we'll be talking to 90 Sharla about Sharia a screening of shares in the stock market.
Basically, we'll be talking about insha Allah
the the methodology that is used now by some Sharia indexes in the stock market and what is the background of this methodology? And what are the options that are available for Muslim investors today. So, when talking about companies that are publicly traded in the market, there are three in principle There are three types of companies. The first type of these companies, they are non Sharia compliant, that means their core activity, their main activity is haram is not permissible. Either they're involved in entertainment or gambling, or alcohol or pork and related products, or weaponry or anything that is not permissible in the Islamic Sharia. So, these companies, which have, you
know, their core business activities that are not compliant with the Sharia are excluded from this discussion. An older owner mindset that we are not allowed as Muslims to invest or buy the shares or own the shares of these companies. second type of these companies, companies that are fully compliant that have fully complied with precepts of Sharia, the teachings of the Sharia, so that means their products are halal. You know, they are involved in producing halal ingredients or halal items. And they are financing is halal, too. They go through equity financing hula, they don't deal with credit lines, they don't take loans from banks.
So all the owner agreed that it is majority majority actually have their own amount. They said
they said that it is permissible, Muslims are allowed to buy the shares and you know the of these companies and sell them again in the market. The bad news is that this companies did not exist in North America. They do not exist in the West in general. Some of them exist do exist in Malaysia, in Singapore, maybe the Gulf countries, or Qatar, like Saudi Arabia, like Sudan, some other countries, but they don't exist in the West. So now, we need to talk about the third type of companies that are involved mainly in healthcare, business activities, they're the core, you know, their core business activities are compliant with the Sharia, but at the same time, their financing is not compliant, we
deal with rubber they deal with interest or some of their activities are not compliant with the Sharia. So, these companies are called they have mixed activities. And they are the subject of our discussion discussion tonight.
Because some have said that Muslims are allowed to invest in these companies through a certain specific methodology that is provided by those Sharia indexes that are found now in the market like SMP cheriya index or Dow Jones Islamic index, or other indexes that are footsie in the UK in Europe that are available in the market today. So in Arabic They are called as homomorphic tallada or shady character to assume in metadata and if you have halal or haram, some majority of you know these companies are I see majority of their activities are healthier are compliant with the Sharia. But they are involved in some haram activities and they deal with Riba the they take loans from the bank
they deposit their their money, their capital in the bank and the earned some interest. So they have a mixed no ingredients. There are two opinions and all the most of the Islamic investment companies in the West.
Most of them who tell you are following certain criteria SMP criteria or Dow Jones are they following this criteria? They are following they're talking about the opinion of this group of scholars Zedd it is Helen and they have a criteria background. We'll talk about it today inshallah. Some other scholars they said they are not held but my job today is to tell you tonight is to tell you the opinion the two opinions, their proofs in sha Allah, and then I'll tell you the background
Have some numbers that are found in their criteria. Unfortunately, I don't have here, hopefully we can have a document to show you at least about one or two products that are available in Canada.
So, we have the first group of Rona and Sherry aborts
reset that Muslims, they have permitted permitted Eonni they said Muslims are allowed to trade the shares of these companies through a specific criteria
filtration process, there is a filtration process and this, they have their criteria. And through this criteria, the filter these companies and these companies are monitored these indexes are monitored through different group of scholars, every every index has its own Sharia board, like here, the
SMP and TSX, 60 sherea, they have four or five scholars, Muslim scholars who are monitoring this index, usually on a quarterly basis every three months, or four months, they have to monitor this index and see if all the companies that are included in this index arc are in line with the criteria of this index. If they are not, they will just take them out. And they might include other companies. So it's an ongoing work that they do every three months or every four months. And they have a filtration part of this filtration process or this whole process, there is something called purification process. So they tell you that there is a small amount of harm there and they tell you
how to purify your income. After you make some some profit.
You don't have as an individual you cannot have access to these indexes, you have to go through a broker or an investment company.
Now, who are these scholars who said that these criteria is Heller and these companies can be our the shares of these companies can be used can be bought and sold in the market. Through this specific criteria that we'll mention we will mention today insha Allah. The first group is a rush a bank Sharia board, and they are based in Saudi Arabia. And the second one is Sherry, a committee of the Jordan Islamic bank, and Banco O'Donnell Islamic. The third one is the Sherry our advisory board of Al Baraka bank, and I think it's based in Bahrain, but it has many branches in different countries. And it was the decision of the six symposium of Al Baraka Banking Group in Bahrain. And
among the earlier Mohammed bin sila Ebner Athenian number one, and he's a senior, he was a senior scholar in Saudi Arabia, he passed away may Allah have mercy on him. Abdullah bin many one of the senior scholars in Saudi Arabia, and he was a member of at Loyola Council of senior scholars at Barack Obama in Saudi Arabia is still alive. Dr. nosey Hamad. He is a Syrian scholar who graduated from Al Azhar University A long time ago he used to teach in Oman, Pura University, a member of one of the Muslim academies, one of them and now he lives in in Canada in Vancouver. He is a Canadian scholar, and Dr. Mustafa zarca, was a Hanafi scholar lived in Jordan, and he passed away Allah Mufti
Taqi Usmani a great scholar from Pakistan he specialized in the field of Finance. And also Dr. Ali mohideen core al qaradawi, from Qatar among other scholars, these are examples and so what are the approves most of the approves those group of scholars interiors who said it is Helen to you know trade the shares of these companies most of the approves a legal Maxim's though right here. So, we use this cover appear to justify or to support their opinion. The first car that they use is usual Toba and Malaysia was declared. This is not a from the Quran. This is not a Hadith, but this is a principle of filial principle. So this right here is this, you know, legal Maxim's or legal, Maxim's
were developed in our history when they are used to deal with and 15 matters. We will deal with some matters method and in areas of taharah, and then the area of food and nutrition the area of boo, and then we will find that there are some similarities with their principles. And then you come up with a rule general rule that include many, many matters.
So hear issues whatever and manage users, the client didn't come up with it without any proof without they looked at some ahaadeeth method. For example,
The sale of a mature fruits by itself is haram is forbidden in mature fruits on the trees. But if the seller is selling the trees whole garden, he can include the mature fruit fruits, and he can increase he's allowed to increase the price because of these fruits. So now it's Helen, it's Helen. So, this is a something that is agreed upon by all the scholars by themselves, they are not, it is not permissible to sell them by themselves. Because they might, they might be affected in the future, and the buyer will just give his money loses money, right? Because you don't know what will happen to this fruit. This is an example.
Sale of young animals in the wombs of their mothers, it is hard, but if you sell the cow, which is pregnant with the young animal in its womb, it's Helen even if you increase the price, because it is attached to the main subject of sale, it is not the main subject of safety. In the first example, the main subject of sale are the trees the garden itself. So the remedy looked at these, you know, different focus matters and matters of fact, and then they came up with this rule issues whatever and manage users decline and so this rule ama used this FERPA Maxim the said the small amount of Riba or small amount of non Sharia compliant activities or ingredients, or amount of money or income
that is there that's coming from haram incomes. It's small is not the main subject of sale, the Muslim investor is buying shares of these companies, because their main or the core business activities of these companies are Helen are compliant with the Sharia. So this Hara amount of ingredients are only attached to it. That is their their arguments will allow you to add this argument was refuted by indifferent to any ways. The first answer was a refutation. Was that legal? or illegal? Maxim's do not have the power of the idea. That is from the Quran, or the hadith of Russell lies on the mound, he said. And he said this Maxim was used to justify the sale of things
that are held by themselves, you know, the animal young animal in the in the womb of its mother, it's Hillel by itself. It's an animal that is held to sell fruits that are held to sell it but haram ingredients in or in interest income in these companies is not held, whether it is sold by itself or attached to something else. So they are trying here to answer their argument. And they said this flip this 50 or maximum could be challenged by other
axioms like we have another fifth Maxim that says their alma facet mocha demo knowledge and Bill Masada, the roadmap he said, you know, repelling evil takes precedence over securing a benefit. If you have the choice between two things here you need to either you do this thing you repel an evil or the other choice is you you bring a benefit to yourself. And you don't have you have only these two choices either you do this one or this one. So the earlier Maddie said repelling evil mocha them the FSC mocha demo knowledgeable masala. This is another car either another 50 maximum that might challenge the other 50 Maxim that you use. The second proof they said they'll hazard to
tuna Zulu Manzella, rasa, and need that is of a public nature could could be treated like a personal or private private necessity private necessity I will tell you about it method and someone is traveling in the desert and he went short to food he doesn't have food now. He doesn't have water it is helpful for him if he finds pork to eat it. This is a personal dharuhera personal why it's personal is private. The federal law is given only to this person is not a general fetch word that is that can be given to all people Hey people, if you are hungry, you can eat from pork no you cannot do that. This is a person one person who who found himself you know in this situation, so
Sherry is giving him a concession This is a private narara hacer una Carlo el Hadji lamb and need that is of a public nature. Anyone Haram is everywhere in all our business transaction mm is of no have the seller is that either I'm a horrible akula fella who Ania huruma he should be and if Haram is everywhere all transactions or jobs of Hara then you can actually benefit from
These things these items to survive because you need to survive that is the statement made by lasers not to sell them in his books they'll collide. So, they looked at this guy that he said this is actually a general the general state now of all companies are most of them majority big majority of these companies are they have these problems they have to deal with interesting take credit lines, they deposit their monies in money in the banks and and the the said this idea or this principle is taken from podi to Allah the end operando Masha Allah, Allah COVID, dinniman Harish, so this is Allah subhanaw taala said and he has not placed upon you in the religion, any hardship. Now their
argument, we said people, this is their argument. They use the frickin Maxim and the ayah. And he said people need to invest their savings, because not everyone is able to, you know, to do business to establish his own business, you have savings in the bank Mathurin worth 30,000 40,000. But you cannot, you don't have the ability, because you're not a business person, you don't have the ability to establish open a store, or establish your own business. So they said the best way now for you for modern Muslims is to invest their money in these investment vehicles or in these companies. And this is also the state needs to encourage people to invest their savings to, you know, support the
an argument that is found both in Muslim and non Muslim countries. So this argument was was refuted on the basis that the need in Sharia because in theory, our needs are divided into three, we have a double rot, which is extremely necessity, like the person traveling as I said, in the desert, and he didn't find food, so he's allowed to drink alcohol, or eat from pork to survive. This is the second one the second level is alhaja. What is the definition of alhaja if you don't do it, you will face hardship and difficulty and ultimate yet, or destiny at camellia luxuries. If you don't go to bed, if you don't take family to your family to Banff you're not going to die. You still you'll be okay.
You'll be fine. So this is a luxury right? So three levels of needs. So here the warning in the middle. This said actually the fulfillment of need. Needs injury is only justified to remove hardship. Masha kamatera, why do we take insurance for our cars, because it's extremely difficult to survive in this country or other countries without cars, right. But insurance by itself is haram. But because it has authority, the main element is a foreigner is a little bit less than a little bit different than Reba. Reba is not tolerated in Sharia. a certain amount of horror of uncertainty could be tolerated especially when there is a need here, because we have a need, we will face
difficulty it will be difficult extremely difficult for us as Muslims to sometimes not to take some benefits some health benefits, but to have coverage for example, or not to have a car. So here the family said Muslims will not face any difficulty that is the argument of those who are refuting their the second delille the second proof, they said Muslims will not face any difficulty of hardship. If they don't invest their money in this companies will love China. The third proof they said there is a car either for another 15 maximum that says you know little accessory Hawkman could only ever be hookman cool. So if we have an entirety we have something and it is divided into two
parts. The major parts of these things is Hillel is pure, for example, is not natural, for example, but there is small amount of hora or meta if we talk about food, they said mithuna when making some types of cheese.
They use a huge amount of milk and they put small quantity of Rena to pepsin in it. So many earlier Maddy said don't worry about it. It's only small Aqua quantity. So they are looking at the ruling of the major part which is milk here. It's Helen. So this is another 15 Maxim that says a small amount of non permissible ingredients will not affect the whole quantity of halal ingredients. And this of course, this car either has also applications in the back in the chapter of taharah and some other chapters. They enforce proof. They said mela in Kenya Hara zoominfo for who f1 and this is another kind of here, another 15 Maxim. Anything that is impossible to avoid is overlooked. For example,
I'll tell you example if a female a Muslim lady
does not find a female doctor. She has to go and see a male doctor right? And he might see her our image Look at her body right? When dealing with treating this woman. So how the amarula to heroism? No, it's impossible impossible to avoid, right. So the fukuhara they said they have discard. Anything that is impossible to avoid, is overlooked in Sharia sharing the morality less than this is part of the mercy of Allah subhana wa, oh, someone has to take matter in the street or a road and the whole area is affected with nyjah and he has to walk on this on this path to go to Al Masjid, so his clothes could be affected by this Nigeria and the earlier Maddie said method in this case, if it
is impossible to avoid this Nigeria, then it is overlooked in the Sharia and his Salat is valid. The other fukuhara talk about small amount of urine on the clothes may be overlooked. If you don't know where it is. You did your best to clean yourself and be clean to clean your clothes. But there are some drops of urine that came on your clothes, then your Salat is valid Allah Allah will not take you to account for this. These are four key examples that are found in the books.
So, these are here, their argument those odema who said it is helpful to deal with this, you know companies they said small amount of haram ingredients in the shares is found with most of these companies. And it is almost impossible to avoid. That is their argument. But this argument was refuted by saying that these Hara ingredients could be avoided by not buying the shares of these companies. And that's it. You avoid them. You don't have to deal with them. There is no necessity that was their counter argument. The second opinion of odema who said it is not permissible to deal with these companies. Do you have the document available? You don't have it? Okay.
The second group of sherry asked callers and cheery aborts those rude Emma who said it is haram to deal with these companies period because they have some
ingredients there they had to deal with interest the deposit their money in the bank, you have interesting, so it's hard to deal with these companies. They are the number one the permanent committee of research in February in Saudi Arabia, Sharia committee of Kuwait finance house beta Temodal Kuwaiti it's a famous Islamic banking quote, Sharia Board of Dubai Islamic bank, one of the first
Islamic banks in the Muslim world, the only way to start it was established in 1975. Sharia committee of the Sudan Islamic bank, Dr. Ali Sal, who's one of the scholars is a Islamic finance scholar, very highly qualified scholar he lives in Qatar is Egyptian, but he dedicated his life to Islamic finance. And she has been best is one of the scholars. So in the first group, you have nothing. second group you have shiffman bas, for example, so it's a very rudimentary said is a very strong
disagreement. Now there Atilla are from the Quran and the Sunnah of Rasulullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam. Yeah, you live in Amman. chochmah rumaki Amina Reba enquanto, meaning oh you believe who have believed it temple la fiere Allah and leave or give up what remains of Riba do to you, if you are truly believers? This is in Surah tillbaka 278. Allah Subhana Allah says Allah, Allah Allahu wa mareeba but Allah has permitted trade, and he has forbidden Riba, usually, the Hadith in which Rasulullah Salim said Allah was in akula, Rebel Jia helia T Mobile, he says, Allah says virally all types all forms of interest, all forms of usury during the time practice during the time of God or
during the pre Islamic era are rejected. So their argument from this you know, as an ahaadeeth madness, what is oneness? They said these divine texts have a general implication which means they include both small amounts and big amounts of Riba. This is their argument and the discussion of other group of scholars, they said investor will not benefit from this Riba he has to purify his income. When he gets an income if they tell him you're 95% of your of your income is haram then he will give inshallah 5% from his income as a sadaqa he will not get the reward of a sidecar This is called the Hello sees just purifying his income. So that is their argument. He said through
The purification process because every index has its own purification process. And these are the response to this argument is found in the second proof, because our whole lives are seldom said in the second proof here used both them and then the B solar system. How did you ever land allow an interview sauce lm LAN Akela Reba, where mukalla who work at Eva who was shahidi so also Lhasa cinnamon, this famous Hadith that is found in Buhari, said Allah subhanho wa Taala has cursed the one who gives the Riba and the one, the one who consumes the Riba, the one who gives it and the scribe of the contract, the one who writes the contract, and the two witnesses who signed the
contract. So he said, they said everyone who is involved in this kind of activities, is actually involved in this in this non Sharia compliant in operations. So Muslims are not supposed to deal with these things at all, they have to stay away that is their argument. The other argument is the iron sword and Merida which I will link below as well as I will know Allah, and if Mueller do and help one another righteousness and piety, and do not cooperate in sin and aggression. So as you can see, in the second group, they have their proofs from the Quran, and the Sunnah, and they are very strong
in an argument, but the other ruler, they said they have a counter argument, they said, the investor is not directly involved in making those decisions. He said, He's not actually just bought, bought bought a share, which is a certificate representing a unit of ownership. He's not the decision maker. He's not like a partner who is involved in a partnership. And he's a decision, you know, when people when people are going to have a small partnership, established small business, they are decision makers, so they are directly held accountable. But these are these are these investors are not they shouldn't be held accountable, like real owners, who are who have the power to make
decisions, they don't make decisions. Yes, they have the voting power, they can participate in the general meetings in the general assemblies, and voice they are concerned like Chef tapirs man, he said a Muslim, when he invest in this company, he should voice his concerns. And these general meetings until you know, the management that they have to avoid these kinds of activities. But this is not practical. And it's difficult to I don't see it happening like nowadays, we're low to either.
Now, they're 30 proof. So I add from the Quran, the Hadith from sola, Solomon, the iPhone, either their third proof, they say the relationship between the management of the company and the investors is a principal agent relationship. So the management is acting on behalf of the shareholders.
And muscling in when we have a partnership. For example, when we have a partnership in Islam, every partner is an agent who is acting on behalf of the other partners. So his transactions are attributed to them.
They are to be held accountable for his own decisions, because he's a partner with them in the business. Of course, it doesn't work with limited liability. That's another concept here in the West. But we're talking about simple partnership in Islam. So it is accurate wirkkala in every partner is at work he lives in and he said the same applies to the management of every company, they are actually doing making decisions and acting on behalf of the shareholders. So they are to be held accountable, because they are part of this company. And everyone who owns shares is like a partner with Allahu taala. And now, this is their
These are two opinions that are found. Now in the Muslim world. If you ask me about my opinion, which one is stronger, by looking at the proofs?
By looking at the names of the scholars, they are almost equal. They are qualified scholars in both parties by looking at the proofs employed by different groups and the second group have stronger proofs from the Quran from the Sunnah very, you know difficult to avoid escape. You know, these, these proofs, this is in a hurry from this lesson. But there is something I will tell you about it. And I am not telling you this is the right opinion.
I have there are scholars who are more qualified than me. more qualified when they discuss this matter didn't give the opinion they said both in both groups are qualified scholars respected scholars in the Muslim world. And this is their disagreement and he stopped he didn't
Say anything, he didn't tell people in his books in his book will and his lectures This is the right opinion follow this opinion there are some people who are very I mean excited about, you know, this one or this one.
But I'll tell you something here, they if I live in Saudi Arabia or in Qatar or no Muslim country, I will tell Muslims Yes, you go with a second opinion, you are not allowed to, to invest in the other companies. Now, the problem with us in the West and here comes the fifth comes to the understanding of the dean, what are we doing with our money
putting it under our bed
putting it under our beds.
So, everyone has his own bag under your bed and you have to know the addresses and then we deal with them right.
So where did where do we save our money or keep our money?
Yeah, they are in the bank. So everyone has a bank account right. Okay. Now, banks, the general principle they use
something called in finance financial intermediation.
financial intermediation. So they take money from depositors.
And you don't keep them there for you. Mr. Mohammed, you have your money here is safe is kept, don't worry about it, we'll keep it for you. Don't worry about it, no, to give it to other corporations, other businesses.
Actually, everything that is in market, all these operations that you see in the markets, especially method and foreign forex, method and operations, I told you before in 2010, the average turnover in one day in April 2010,
the average of the daily transactions in one day was $4 trillion.
And whose money is this? It's your money, my money, the money of the public. So these banks and because these banks are financing these operations, and giving this money to corporations, so they are earning interest, so your money is used,
is used to finance these huge interest based operations. Whether you like it you don't like it right. Now, here this criteria, is telling you this is a lesser evil.
You see what I'm saying here, that is a thought a personal thought, and the decision is yours. But this is what I believe if we have an Islamic bank earlier, Maddy said well established Islamic bank, well established Islamic were there earlier they said you as a Muslim, you are not allowed to keep your money in conventional bank. That means you don't need to go through this at all. Though we don't have Islamic banks in Canada, we don't have Islamic banks in the in the West. So we're depositing our money in the banks, and the bank is using our money to finance as I said, these operations that you are not pleased with, but here there is a criteria that is trying to minimize
You know, they said they accept only we'll look at their qualitative criteria, they accept only Hara 5% of haram ingredients. And they look at the financial structure of every company, they look at debts and they look at account receivables. And those things, we'll talk about them and they are the background in Sharia of these numbers. 5% Alia ciroma who won an hoh This is a pie definitely hide any any small amount that is mixed with a large amount of hair, but in water, you have a big counter a container of water and he has some drops of urine. So the older man he said, if the color is not changed, the smell is not changed if this water, so it is considered a pure water you can make
although this small amount of majesta does not affect. So he looked at this, you know 50 Maxim's here
so 5% the tolerate only 5% of business non compliant business activities. And we look at this financial structure of the companies to we'll talk about it now. So this is a personal thought. This is not a federal that they got from some scholars. As I said, I talked to other scholars about it, and they couldn't tell me which one is right. But there are salasar we have it Allah I talked to him about it. He said, yes, these two opinions are there.
There is nothing better than Salama safety, to be safe, not to invest. But this is a federal good as I said in the Arab countries in the Muslim countries, yes. Because you have to have alternatives. You live in Qatar, you have Islamic banks, too.
You have Islamic bank, Saudi Arabia, in Sudan, you have Islamic banks, even in Algeria and other countries. So you have alternatives, right. But here we don't have Alton, I am not trying to say, hey, you go with the first opinion, it's your decision. But I'm telling you your money is used to finance other operations that are you are not happy with and you don't like and it's there and used on a daily basis. So, but here, if you use your money on different, different, you know, investment, that could be better for you without Allah. Now, when it comes when it comes to this methodology,
this ruler, who adopted the second methodology,
we came up with two two elements, something called qualitative criteria and the other one called quantitative criteria. So, qualitative criteria, the look at which companies qualify to be included in these indexes, the first index will allow to Allah alum is Dow Jones Islamic index, one of the scholars who established this index is shifted money, he's still alive. So, this ad all following activities are excluded from following include included excluded from this index, alcohol, pork related products, conventional financial services, banks, insurance companies, and all these companies, entertainment, tobacco weapons and defense and he said only 5% or less coming from the
previous activities is tolerated. So, a company could have method and the main the core business is Helen, but he might be involved in some other investments. So, they said if the Haram investment is less than 5%, then this company will qualify for the second step, which is quantitative screening or quantitative criteria. So, all the other companies that are involved in this activities are excluded. So they have to be oil and gas they have to be any it they have to be companies giving services or offering services different companies that are offering heroin
you know, services to the public.
The second quantitative criteria, these are they looked at debt, the debt of the company, they look at the cash that has the company has plus interest bearing securities like bonds, for example. And he looked at their account receivables. So, they said everything has to be divided with the average during the 24 months of the market capitalization of the company and everything has to be less than 33%. What is the market capitalization or market cap is actually the value of the market value of the company. If you look at the value of the shares on a specific day of that company, let's say one share is $1. And the company has 20 million shares, what will be the value the market value of this
company to the millions, but it is different from the total assets because the assets you know the properties of the company, tangible assets, but their properties they own or tools, equipments, buildings, or cash they have or anything, the total could be only 15 million could be only 10 million these total assets. But here this rule Emma, who are dealing with are taking care of this Dow Jones Islamic index, we don't have it here in Canada, but this is an example.
Just an example most of them are similar.
So we looked at the market, the US the market capitalization, some of them they divided the total debt by the total assets we'll learn how to and what is their argument? I'm not sure account receivables is the money owed by the company to a customer for services or products provided upon credit. So when someone's buy something with a credit, then when he sent him when they send him the invoice. So their money this money is called account receivable it will go into the account receivables. So here because they are counted, they are treated like cash. And the idea is that money if it belongs to the same denomination, it has to be exchanged at par value for half Canadian
money. I have 1000 in my hand my hand I want to exchange it with Canadian money for example. Let's say we have a bill, do we have a bill for 1000?
Okay, let's say for sake of clarification, we have a bill or I have a bill of 100 for example, I need to change it made small bills $5 $10 it has to be at par value.
Otherwise, it is illegal.
If it is a different domination like American money or or European money well that's okay. That's okay. I mean it doesn't have to be at par value, one Canadian 100 and Canadian dollar I buy with it like 360 Saudi reals. So here we have 360 and here I have 100 devalue is different tribes because they belong to different countries. So there is no Riba here The only thing is they have to be
we need to hear immediate delivery or immediate possession and then be at hand to hand.
But if the money belongs to the same then denomination it has to be at par value. Now when I have cash, when I have account receivables, if they are in big amounts in a company, and I buy the shares of this company, so the majority the major parts of this company could be representing what representing cash for example, resending money, so when I sell this share in the market, I'll be like selling selling money because the current theatre code available in the lobby hockman cool in the majority should be treated or deserve to be treated like the whole of a think this is a 4k Maxim here. So cash is the majority, the major part of the share here, so it's like I am buying and
selling money. So they looked at this financial structure of the companies. Now the idea of 33% not many people are confused about it. And actually, there is a brother So hey, lamb it, he did a presentation on behalf of hikma capital
achema capital is an investment company that is established here in in Calgary in Calgary.
It's a new company.
It's new right.
hikma, or what is called? The one established in Calgary.
hikmah capital. So there is another one in Toronto with the same name. same name. Okay, it's weird. But anyway, yeah. So so he did presentation in some masajid here in Calgary and he mentioned this 33% 33% the background of this 30 What is 33%? one third. So what is the background is this one third is the headache of sad.
Sad no your cause when he was sick in the city of Mecca, and he met Russell last I saw him he wanted to make was. So you said the RSO ally of only I think he was talking about his children, he must have wives. But he was talking about his children. He said to have only one daughter. And I need to donate make we'll see I didn't donate money before I die before I pass away. So is it possible to donate three quarters? I think the first number he mentioned three quarters of my wealth, my properties. So law says he said no. He said how about two thirds of my properties? So law says and him said no.
And then the third question, he said how about a third? So he said there was one last session and he said the third is fine. Even though it is a big amount. The third is fine, even though it is a big amount.
And he said and today I want to take care of Nia hieromonk entera home for karateka for foreignness it is to leave your family members rich sorry and wealthy it's better than leaving them after you pass away after you die leaving them poor asking help from other people. So it's better for you to leave this wealth for your family right but it's okay to make if someone is wealthy it's recommended it is Mr. hat for him to to make lasagna but his ad cast was asking about the right way to make the was a solo solo Salim did not agree with three quarters. He did not agree with two thirds, but he agreed with the third and he said even though the third is a big amount. So now here the owner this
aroma they use something called the nasoalveolar formula maharlika divergent meaning mfuwe and mohalla is used in a solid field. It is a method of deducting rulings from the Sharia. What is the mushroom here? The divergent meaning anything that is less than third is a small amount.
But the Shafi and the Maliki scholars who use this my former mohalla because the Hanafi said we cannot use malformed Allah, in the Quran texts of the Quran and the Hadith, those sheffy and Hannah and medical scholars who used moving for mohalla we said mohalla this text cannot be an answer to a question. And here it is an answer to a question made by sad novio cos because they, in another word, he could have said how about one quarter 25% that's all I could have said we don't know a lot. But he could have said yes, quarter is fine, even though quarter is a big amount.
Because he's the statement of muscle loss SLM came as an answer to a question. So the answer is related to that specific question. It doesn't necessarily mean that only think less than 30. But they used it, they used it as a as a delete.
And, and also the Hanafi or the Manichaean sheffy scholars who use this method. They said this divergent meaning cannot go against a text, a divine text from the Quran and the Sunnah. And here they are using this argument or this in the area of Riba interest, and we have proofs from the Quran, Xena, that we are not supposed to deal with Eva. So anyway, this is their argument about 33%. So, anything that is less than 33% is a small amount, and it could be accepted. That's why they accepted this amount into a you know, these financial numbers. And most of the company's most of the companies are using this index like there is a mutual fund Muslim mutual fund in a in the US is
called the i m a n x i think
a man a mutual fund, but this is their index, this is their symbol right
here. So a man a mutual fund, it's been there for a long time
very successful mutual fund and is using this criteria and the scholars who are taking care of this monitoring this, this investment company, or some of them from Canada, some some of them from the state now in Canada, okay. So my point tonight is that if Muslims want to invest, this is the only option they have.
Because you cannot just invest by yourself because you don't have knowledge about the financial structure of the company. And you don't know their numbers, how much of haraam Is there even if it is an oil company and oil company could be investing money in entertainment business
could be investing money in casinos and gambling
you know, business so the invest companies invest their money in different investments. So but when you have a scholars monitoring, you know, these companies that at least they are responsible in front of Allah subhana wa Tada. I had some names here, but they are in the document here and he is okay, that's fine.
We can talk about it on a different occasion. But I wanted to you to show some
you know, the the one that we have here in Canada, the 60 shehryar index plus the hikma capital, they are using the 500 SMP 500. From the state.
So he told me SMP 500
Yeah, but the Hikmah capital, they are using SMP 500 from the state.
Yeah, but the point is, all these indexes are similar. They're using the same method. And, you know, an opinion of both groups. You're about this methodology.
Or these products that are found in the market. Now the Sharia indexes, the two opinions that I mentioned the first group of scholars and the second group of scholars. So if when it comes to your RSP, investing the money of your children for education, or method an RSP, this could be an option will allow you to plan because the other option is using a savings account, saving account, you just purify it you take the interest and take it away give it
to the Rebbe because the money coming from the government is is helpful if we're talking about education savings account for your children. Any the money coming from the government is Hillel your money is Helen. Tony Haram is the person to you forever. The other option is to invest your money, the money of your children through these vehicles will allow to hold on
to it. Do you have any question? Anything to be clarified?
They have some
The I don't know if we have this kind of investment. I'm not sure. Some of the scholars have is not involved with Amana mutual fund. They might have a branch in in Toronto. I'm not sure but but they may their main product is housing. isn't a housing cooperative. Yes.
You mentioned it.
What is it for
the hurry from the Hollies,
the said any cash method and has to be less than 33% cash within the company. liquid.
Yeah, but they want to scope it. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you just want to explain a few things. That's okay. That's fine.
Yeah. Do you have any other question? Yes. Brother.
Southern Maryland millennia her brother
was the first man
the Forex we had we had the lecture here and it is available on YouTube explained the way the two forks in hedge funds. I don't know I don't have enough enough knowledge about this is kind of you know activities.
Allow Elon Musk. inshallah we will when we have, you know, if we do some research about it, we'll let you know about it, but forex. It was a lecture and it's available on YouTube.
Day Trading. So what is considered day trading?
second one was ETFs. If you're allowed to invest in ETF? Yeah.
Yeah, I'll just go slowly. ETFs are like mutual funds, but they are sold. They are traded in the market, like mutual fund is an invest in company people. It's a pooled investment, you get money, people contribute to this method, an investment pool, and then it's divided into units, people buy these units and the manager of this company mutual funds will invest the money in different you know, different
stocks, bonds, different operations. And then when we make a profit, they have a ratio of profit to be given to their investors. So ATF is the same thing. But mutual funds are not invested by themselves in the they are not traded in the market. ETFs are actually like mutual funds where they are traded, the same thing applies. If they are companies or halon. investment is held following For example, this criteria, then it is accepted based on the criteria of this group of scholars. You know, Jamie, so to tell you about pure ETF
eczema, we don't have enough in North America. We don't have in in the West. Anything that is purely halal, fully fully compliant.
Chevy was talking about some purely halaal ETF
from Singapore, not from here Singapore, right. Yeah. So we don't have in the West anything.
The trading is a journey.
It's a controversial matter. And I and I, I there are two opinions about it. There are some elements it is not is not permissible, those who exaggerate about speculation, and they don't like speculate if, you know, activities. And the don't feel comfortable with speculation, the concept of speculation at all. But it's very controversial, but the element of speculation is found in any business activity. No, you know what I mean? So it's very, there is a thin line between what is Helen? What is halal in speculation, what is halal and what is haram. So this hermit, he said, You know, this, this collar these people who are investing doing being involved in day trading, they are
not actually they don't mean to own these shares, and they don't add any value to the economy. And they are just speculating about the prices of these shares. And they try to sell them on the same day. And so they have their own arguments, but I couldn't reach any conclusion about it. I don't want to give you a fetch one hour offer to an hour but it allowed Alana Yes.
After an effort, but by just to continue by principle, if you buy something you own it, you own it, and you sell it after you own it is Helen whether it is an hour, whether it is a day, with whether it is a month, it doesn't matter. This is the main principle in Islam, that you don't sell what you don't own. If you own it,
Then you can sell it will, Allah.
I know. I know, I know. But there is there is constructive possession. And there is real possession constructive. Some earlier, when they looked at the alcohol that hooked me constructive possession, they said when it is registered in your name. So it is a type of ownership. But I don't want to go into that now. But this is a basic principle. And that could be one of the main reasons of their disagreement about these kinds of activities.
stems as a necessity of need to do something with it. Correct, we can find it. One of the, to have money. One of the other necessity or needed in which we mentioned, to do something with or not keep it with yourself. We said the need here is not a necessity. These are the people need to invest their savings, because they don't have the ability to establish their own business and everything. And also the state needs to encourage people to invest their savings to support the economy. Because if people keep their savings, they don't invest them, then the economy will
will not will be weak and he will lead the country will not have a strong economy because money is not is not used in the business
that is recommended or not recommended to
save money. Okay, you need to fulfill, and there's no particular reason.
What I mentioned is here, we are saving more money in the banks. And banks is using our money to finance interest based operations, right. And things that were not pleased with, but your money is used, your money is used. So I'm saying maybe it could be better for you as a Muslim to use your money in these kinds of activities. Maybe it's better is the is the lesser of two evils.
Now, Taliban slamming back we don't have an Islamic event. We're talking about Canada and the West.
But keeping in the back is totally safe because investment is permissible. Yeah, it is what they are. Yeah.
terms of recommendation i'm saying is recommended as a Muslim if you had extra money. Okay.
The recommendation for Muslims or for the the properties of the orphans. He said the Steph Murphy and Maria tamela Taku has a cat. He said invest the money of the orphans. Because the orphans have to pay the cat. They have to pay the Catholic even if they are not McAuliffe, even if they are young, they have to pay because it is a hacker right on the money on the property. Not that hack on them. They are not Micallef because he could be 10 years old, and he's a billionaire. His dad passed away and he left for him billions of dollars. So we tell him like you don't have to pay zakat until you become an adult you reach the age of puberty. You know, all the scholars This is an agreement
that he has to pay zakat is insane. He's he's not
supposed to pray, he cannot pray. He doesn't fast. Allah subhanaw taala will not take into account because insane, he's most known crazy. But if he's rich, wealthy, then his guardian has to pay zakat on his money. Right. So
they allow us to encourage people to invest the properties of the orphans. He said otherwise the Zakat will eat it away without Allah. So the general counsel would be encouraged to keep the general concept is good to invest your money to save money for your family. And so last I said I'm used to save for the for the whole year save money or food for the whole year for one year.
More than that, if you have more than that, then it's better to invest it is better to invest money to make more money it is Islam encourages people to invest their money.
Oil and Gas Company, their activities are
the main activity, but most of the oil and gas is sold through futures.
So here comes the job of the scholars to monitor these companies and monitor their activities. That's why they don't look only at the product, they look at the financial structures,
different ratios and they say my friend and they look at the balance sheet of the company. And the the know how to read these numbers and and come up with a conclusion about company if it is included should be included in these indexes or not.
And here the difference is there is a big difference between someone who is going to the market by himself
as an individual and Muslim investor, say, I'll deal with my broker or just buy oil and gas. But you don't know what kind of involvement business they are involved in? Or what are the their? What is their situation, their financial situation? What are their financial conditions, you don't know them. So these scholars are monitoring this is indexes on a regular basis. And then yeah, it's better than
then other other things we're allowed to add on them in the market. That's why my federal if I have to give a fatwa tonight, by yourself, you go and invest in the in the in the market, you cannot do it. Because you don't know you don't know you don't have knowledge about these companies, you cannot do a research by yourself and and look for these numbers by yourself. And because this is the only criteria that is available in the Muslim world, either its Hara, or its halal through this methodology. This is what we have. We're not talking about the Arab countries or Muslim countries, they have their Islamic banks, they have Islamic financial investment companies. I'm talking about
people Muslims living in the West, in Canada and North America and Europe. And that's it, you get my point, right?
Do you raise your hand?
Program, which is about 2000. companies.
and it's a local company.
brothers who hate we'll be here, we'll be here who move here?
Okay. There is one thing I would like to tell you. There are some banks that came up with this Islamic investments, they established the Islamic investment department, or conventional banks, one of them was in Canada.
And he mentioned the scholars mentioned the scholars who,
you know, who approved this criteria. The problem is, the problem is, sometimes they give the impression that these scholars are monitoring this investment. Only the the scholars approved the index, the criteria, the methodology, we cannot give the impression to the public that these collars are on a regular basis, monitoring the decisions and the operations of this investment department in the bank. They have nothing to do with it, you know, to me, but they approve this methodology.
So, if you strictly follow this methodology, then you will be in the safe side following their methodology. If you use it, just there, put it on the website, but you don't follow the criteria, you make your own decisions, then you are not really following there. So you have to be careful about it. It's a matter of advertising. The other thing is that I don't like in the market now. And in this industry, Islamic finance industry, some people like to always use fully compliant, fully compliant with Sharia strictly compliant. So they shouldn't say this, well, I mean, it's better for them, people will respect them, inshallah will deal with them, they are honest, and they say this
criteria or this investment was approved by this scholars group of scholars, or Sherry Abbas. So people will know, and the decision believe the decision to the customers and the investors. I think it's better than telling people you know, these are strictly Sharia, you know, compliant products fully imply we don't have something fully compliant in the West.
Your money is used
their money, my money, they are using a earning interest, the bank is earning interest on your money.
we have limited limited options.
I will tell you something, I don't want we I don't want you to blame Islam for this hardship that we face in the West. Why? I'll tell you something. Why? The reason is, because this financial system was not built based on our values.
We live in a different culture.
It's impossible. It's a different culture. It's a different financial system.
They don't care about river river is Bay is part of their daily operations is Riba interest is included in everything. And this is their financial system now to come and say, Whoa, everything is haram. So Islam is a very difficult to religion, you start blaming Islam, no, don't blame Islam, Islam gave you the alternatives, alternatives are not found in the system. Because this system is not Islamic.
But our fathers, our forefathers have established their own Islamic system. And it worked for centuries. It worked for centuries, when before Europeans established their banks, we had a system in the Muslim world and Muslim trader was signed a check, I will tell you check in the city of Basra in Iraq, and it will be cashed in Morocco.
In the Middle Ages, we call them middle ages in Europe.
That was admitted by in western scholars, they said they had a very sophisticated system in the Middle Ages, Muslims. But this is history. This is history. We don't want to live on the glories and the achievements of our
our forefathers, we have to look at our conditions. Now. The challenges that we are facing, and the problems that are facing, even with Islamic Finance, the people who are taking care of this industry are trying to make it easy to people. But sometimes, whenever we see in a whenever we see something that is not fully
compliant, usually people most of the people think right away about lack of honesty,
and lack of lack of integrity, and that Muslims themselves are not willing to provide fully Sharia compliant products. Is this not the case, sometimes the the face many challenges their competition in the market. The regulations, regulators are not Muslims. Every country has a financial,
you know, regulation body, regulatory body body that regulates all financial activities, including Islamic investment companies. And sometimes they don't accept some of their terms. They come up with a plan to tell them, this is how we're going to do business. The regulator will tell them no, you cannot do this in Canada, you cannot do this in the UK. So they have their own challenges and problems too. So I want you to think about all these things. We don't we don't want to jump into conclusions. When you see something that is not pure that is not complete. We always think about lack of honesty and, you know, within our circles, this is not the case all the time. Well, lo
Donna. Yes. One question. So in conventional finance, and inflation,
what is the Islamic concept on inflation?
What do you mean Islamic concept? How does Islam define inflation? The creation of money you mean inflation of money and things becoming more expensive.
there are issues that we will discuss regarding this, this problem. When it comes to paying debts for example, or paying more or paying more than the money the value of money is different. And the amount of the Islamic academies both Islamic physically we have two Islamic academies.
These are the most actually
they are the best in the in the Muslim world. One of them belongs to IAS or IC Organization of Islamic countries. headquarter is headquartered in Jeddah, the other one It belongs to the Muslim, worldly rabbit, Atlanta Muslim, and their headquarter is in Makkah. So, the group big group of scholars they come together every three months every four months and they get together and the invite specialists, people who are specialized in different fields sometimes the discussed medical issues, financial issues, different issues, and all the collected questions and problems they have one of the questions is this the discussed method, when it comes to paying debt, they said no, you
have to pay the same amount, unless there is there are some exceptions. If times of calamities or if the economy the whole financial system collapses and the value of monies like mahana has decreased.
Any is totally different method $1 used to be equivalent to method and let's say three, three rounds solarians and huge
financial crisis took place and then the value of money became totally different. $1 is equal
or 50 years of method and Saudi money here has no value when compared with American money. If there was a problem, like financial crisis, or an earthquake or a big disaster, he or he said they said the data might might make a claim in a court of law and asked for the equivalent of his, the amount of his debt in this case, so there are no isolated cases where the person might ask for the equivalent amount of money. Otherwise, they said inflation should not
affect the payment of loans and the payment of debts. And everything should be the same with the same value.
currency that that doesn't happen.
Yeah, but it has to do it has to do with the nature of money in Islam. In Islam, we accepted anything that was accepted by the public or accepted in the state. If it is accepted by the state by the government by the public as a tool as a money, then it should be accepted. They looked at the Sunnah of Rasulullah Sallam he used to you deal with golden dinars minted in in the Roman Empire and silver Durham's minted in the Persian Empire, and the sole assassin did not say these are Roman dinars and Persian Durham's, we should change them, we should have our own sooner money, or Islamic money. He didn't say that. And the hula Rashi, Dune did not make this decision.
Does it? Does it click anything in your mind? is this?
People who are thinking about using golden silver again,
you didn't you're not following the news. Okay.
Can I just comment on that for a second. I mean, one of the biggest problems that people have is that when you deal with loans, they don't understand the nature of Islamic contracts. In Islam, we have contracts for profit, and we have contracts that are done out of kindness. And the loan is a contract that is done out of kindness. So it's understood that you're making some sacrifice already by giving a loan. And if there are further sacrifices made due to inflation, then you know, that's part of the contract that you understand that you are jealous with,
even if someone is lost in circulation, but this concept does not apply only to mom's method and credit sales. It's not a loan, right? But there is a credit so and it has to pay within a within five years, or six years. So the value of money could be different. Mar for example, is not a loan.
It's a hack. It's a right. That has to be paid by the husband to his wife. So it applies to all these kinds of arrangements.
Yeah, macif said what he said is true. Yeah. And He alone is apt of Sn. So I'm saying Earth hasn't called has any don't charge Riba and Islam does not exist these days anyway. Anyway, but
so my point is, you know, when it comes to inflation, yes, there is a problem with fiat money. But when you look at the concept of money in Islam, we we don't have problem dealing with this kind of money. You know what I mean? Even though we know there is a problem, there are people who said no Santa is to use golden silver.
No, it is soon and we have to go to this manner. But this look at what our solar system did not say this even make this statement. He never thought about changing money. Because if you change it, it will be very difficult for us to be difficult. Imagine if proselytism said we have to have our own Islamic dinar and Islamic money. What would happen nowadays? What would happen? People will not be able to use this money this paper money said No, we can't. Because of our solar system said we have to use our Omen Subhana Allah, this is a Rama of Islam. Allah says Allah knew that people will be different dealing with different types of money. Even our photographer they will thought about
making money out of the skin of camels
for color, Kayla hood isn't
you know, all camels will perish. And then he changed his mind.
Why did he did he because he didn't look at the nature of money itself by itself. You know, he looked at it as a tool, if people accept it to be a tool and money made of skin of camels then let it be anyway, but I know the problem is there is what the financial system you know with central banks and with interest is very complicated. Sometimes when you try to read about it. Here it gets some headache. Tyler knows
is not is not easy, is not easy, but but we have to study these things and understand them. Yes.
Many of them Dow Jones, Sharia index SMP one of them in Canada SMP TSX 60 Sharia in Canada in in the state SMP 500. In the UK footsie in Malaysia, MSCI different there are many ages go to Google progeria indexes, Islamic indexes, you will find many.
I think you need to go through a broker, you cannot do it by yourself or through investment companies.
However, the 16th area?
I don't know, I mean, if you deal with your broker
and what I know, well, to the best of my knowledge, it could be good news, if it happened in the future, that there are some companies in the Gulf area, they are trying to provide platform universal, or international platforms for international investors invest even in Islamic banks and companies found in Qatar, Dubai, in many countries,
is already doing mobian boubyan from Kuwait, right, that and then also bank at the beginning of this year.
Yeah. So there could be some progress in the future, you could be trading with your machine, if you don't have an iPhone, well, I can, through different platforms that are found. The problem is with the fees, the fees, if you are doing dealing with local companies, the fees are very small. If you buy shares of international companies from Singapore, Malaysia, maybe other countries in the airport, the fees could be very expensive, I think we'll lower them right.
Because all of the companies
are companies listed on
these banks don't deal with individuals, they deal with companies and they that's it you don't have questions. One more
and I hope I understood this correctly, but
right now, just as retail investors
that we can cherry pick from these
indexes. And then
what I understood is that you don't have as individuals you cannot have access to that you have to go through financial investment company or a broker is what they understand.
I was told I'm not sure about this information.
So you find company XYZ in this
and you as a retail investor
if you know that it is a index is an imaginary portfolio and it's not a company by itself. It's just a list of companies that you can consider in in your investment. But But I my i don't know i could be wrong about it. I was told that as an individual you don't have access to this index, you need to go through a broker or an investment company
because even if you look for the list of these companies, the index method 60 sherea marisha one if you look for the look for the list the updated list you don't find it I think online will loudhailer you don't find it online. So you have to go through
a broker or investment company will at least what I you know Allah tala Teach me if I'm wrong
RSP that's a different discussion. But I said it could be your funds in the RSP could be invested through these vehicles instead of allowing the company to invest in on your behalf in thinks that you are not aware you don't know the nature of this investment. So you can go through this options belong to Alan Yes.
Yeah who are either Yeah, keep quite pleased because we need to continue just two questions three questions and will allow you to go shall
know checking account what
Do you mean checking out
all your money that is deposited in the bank is used by the bank
we don't have here we don't have an Islamic bank.
So, if you invest your money in a different investment you don't keep them in the bank it could be better whether it is a hallel investment you open a store or you or you buy a property real estate or or you go through this you know, use this criteria look for these companies and invest your money with them it could be better than keeping your money in the bank will allow tada
credit cards brother is asking a different question.
What to say?
This is the last question shall credit cards
there are some Lula who said people living in the West because they are used, you know, people use them on a daily basis. And some of the people who live in the state will lay in the West they cannot carry cash and they looked at these conditions flyff and they said they could be handled with this condition that you pay within that period of time, you don't pay interest, but this letter to my understanding or to the best of my understanding
is not valid anymore. Because nothing and if you look at
B mo Bank of Montreal, they have a prepaid travel MasterCard, and it is prepaid it has no interest in it. So it has all the features of credit card you can use it it's like a debit right but it is credit card you have to put money before you use it. Okay, so you don't benefit from any loans. They're not giving you loans and that's why you don't pay interest it's your money. But if you go to the hotel they accepted as a rental car they accepted as a credit card. So this is an alternative a good alternative because we have always a well established companies not like the other companies who have prepaid credit cards there are some small companies or some stores they have you know their
they have their own prepaid cricket
but we have always a well established company and this card is Helen to us.
So this is an alternative you don't need to use credit card.
Now he told me I don't have money and have cash to pay for my expenses, that's a different story.
Then you should look for other alternatives Hello loans from friends or family members. If you can't, then you can use the credit card to pay for your expenses but with one condition they you
Nick, you have to make sure that you'll be able to pay inshaAllah the bill before the end of the period. This is in case you don't have resources financial you know means you don't have the financial means you don't have enough income you have a family to spend on so you can go for this option as a last resort. a last resort otherwise the hell are credit cards are available. These are prepaid credit cards allow Thailand he has a debit card now to the visa Yeah, but they don't accept it in some hotels and they don't Yeah, they still look at it. Look at it as as a debit card. Yeah, she's
he can use it everywhere. Yeah Jazakallah fans of Hanukkah lovehoney shadow Allah Allah Allah subhanho wa Taala