Ummah Talk #007 – Jordan Peterson, Mohammad Hijab Interview Reaction – Spaces
Date:
Channel: Fatima Barkatulla
Series: Fatima Barkatulla - Ummah Talk
File Size: 160.10MB
Related
- Waleed Basyouni – How To Maximize The Benefits Of The Jummah Khutbah
- Mohammed Hijab – Muslim Men React to Andrew Tate
- Yaser Birjas – Jummah Khutbah 2013 04 12
- The Deen Show – Mohammed Hijab EMERGENCY MEETING with Patrick Bet-David Muslims & Christians working together
- Adnan Rajeh – Jummah Prayer The Laws of SuccessVictory -7- Adherence.
- Mohammad Elshinawy – Benefits of natural hygiene
- Mohammed Hijab – Top 10 Polymaths in Islamicate History
AI Generated Summary ©
The speakers discuss the struggles of Islam in the post, including the use of "monster" in writing the Bible and the importance of finding people who are not anti- Muslims. They emphasize the need for trusted "monsters" in the Bible and emphasize the negative impact of religion on people's views of women and the culture in Saudi Arabia. The discussion also touches on the struggles of working in pressure culture and the importance of being the most powerful person in the world. The upcoming digital radio show and book recommendations are also mentioned, with the speakers emphasizing the importance of finding experts in certain fields and being mindful of one's success.AI Generated Transcript ©
Yo
yo
Welcome to the OMA talk podcast with me, Fatima Baraka Tula be led the OMA rise
Smilla Alhamdulillah wa salatu salam ala Rasulillah.
Brothers and sisters, this is the first time I'm doing a Twitter spaces today, I thought we would talk about the Muhammad hijab and Jordan Peterson podcast episode, which was released yesterday after a long time, you know, of people basically anticipating waiting for it to be released,
or actually not just for it to be released, but for it to even be recorded, right? Because, unfortunately, Professor Peterson was ill. And he kept canceling
the discussion that he wanted to have with Brother Muhammad hijab, and then a lot of people were getting upset about that. And
so, you know, it looked as though for a long time, to many people that perhaps Professor Peterson wasn't really interested in listening or speaking to Muslims, right. But then, of course, he did interview must have Akyol.
He's an academic, like
a liberal Muslim, academic, based in Washington, I believe, the Cato Institute in Washington. And
so in some ways, that was quite heartening, because even though
professor, actual Dr. Akeel doesn't necessarily have orthodox views on Islam and Islamic law, at least in that podcast episode, he did convey certain important things. So I think we should, I think we should give him credit for that, you know, the fact that he conveyed for example, Islamic monotheism, he can, at least in a basic sense, he conveyed our beliefs about Jesus about Maria Manny has Salam, and lots of
very good things as well. But of course, for us, who are, you know, practicing Muslims, Orthodox Muslims, whatever you want to call, you know, the mainstream Muslim communities and the Muslim community.
It wasn't satisfying, because, you know,
Professor, most of Akyol still kind of believes in liberalism and believes that there's a kind of some ways to liberalize Islam or make Islam compatible with Western liberalism. And so, you know, obviously, that that's something that we
we disagree with right?
Now.
That's in that context.
And then also in the whole context of like, in the last, I would say, 20 years
in Dawa so I've been involved in that organizations for the last 20 years when I era that Islamic education research Academy started out, and that's the organization set up by abdur-rahim Green.
And then also, you know, use of chambers
and, you know, brother, Hamza sources etc. And even I think Brother Mohammed job later joined as well, I era, it was a really important moment when I era began, because it was really a time when, for the first time, I think Muslims were trying to make a very organized movement towards that our, in the West, and it was straight down, it was, you know, basically mobilizing every Muslim to feel that they could call people to Allah.
And we used to do that with training courses. I conducted a number of dog training courses and helped formulate some of the courses but you know, for the Hamza and abdur-rahim
really designed some amazing courses that then were taught all over the country and even in many countries all over the world and still still are taught martial up. And I era was also trying to engage with Western academics and intellectuals. Unfortunately, you know,
the types of intellectuals and academics, especially the New Atheists, that
Muslims often tried to engage with,
you know, they, they lacked sincerity, they weren't interested in having a sincere discussion.
There were Islamophobes such as Douglas Murray, who I remember I was on a, on a channel for TV program with him, you know, once with some sisters in the club, and we, we were defending, you know, our right to observe the niqab.
And those types of shows are really terrible. They were they were insincere. They were not real, you know, like, they're just about sound bites, and
you could never have a decent conversation where you could really convey the message of Islam. You couldn't even connect as a human being on mainstream media, because everything was about sound bites, right? And I know that because I remember in one of the discussions I was invited to, on television, I think it was Channel Four.
Before we started the discussion, and again, it was about near cop. Right. So we've always kind of reacting I guess, in a way, which also wasn't ideal.
The presenter said to us, Look, we don't have much time you we have to keep everything short and snappy, right? And as soon as she said that, we knew that, you know, there's not going to be a sincere discussion. So anyway, in the context of all of that, you know, and the debates and discussions that our brothers especially in our have been trying to have with Western intellectuals and also with New Atheists, right, new atheists who obviously have something to say about God about the space that we're interested in
and being met with, you know, completely the complete inability to kind of even sit at a table with them because they wouldn't, they wouldn't really,
you know, entertain that.
You know, they would invite people like Majid Nawaz
and others write x Muslims, or like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, or I don't know what his status is Muslims, you know, like, imagine the worst. And who basically would just parrot the narrative that Islamophobes Islamophobes love to him. And so I think you have to bear all of that in mind when you
look at and watch the Muhammad hijab podcast with Jordan Peterson. For the first time, there's a Western academic who's got a massive platform, right? He's more popular than the New Atheists. He's more popular than
then, you know, many religious leaders, right?
He's, you know, had a, he's got a phenomenal following all over the world. And for the first time, he invited a Muslim to come on to his show, and have an actually have a long form decent discussion, right.
I can see some of you are requesting to make comments and stuff, please don't worry, I'm definitely gonna include you. Just let me you know, get my intro done. Yeah. Let me just like, introduce that. Because I think throughout today, and since last night, I know on my Twitter feed, I've been quite excited about this discussion. I was watching it I made I made all my kids watch it, you know, my son's especially teenagers. And the reason I don't know why that's funny. It's not funny. That's it, I didn't actually have to try that hard because they wanted to watch it once they once they got started. Because, you know, I think it's just incredibly motivating, and an incredibly positive
thing for younger people, to be able to listen to somebody like brother Muhammad hijab was one of our brothers, you know,
be able to articulate a positive, sophisticated case for Islam.
All of the fundamentals of Islam write
in such a comprehensive and articulate way. And I think I really wanted my sons in particular to hear that and to see him because, you know,
not only was this message being reached potentially to millions and you know, we can see even in one day let me let me just check what the views are at the moment on the on the podcast.
I mean, within an hour or so, it was like, you know, like
Hundreds of 1000s of people
he doesn't try to see what the
views are.
Right? So it's nearly nearly 500,000 already.
Well, that's like in less than a day. Right?
There was that also the fact that he recited the Quran, you know, he was not embarrassed to do that. Not that anyone should be embarrassed but you know, how many times have you heard a Muslim engaging with a non Muslim on that kind of platform, who has actually recited the words of ALLAH right? He recited the words of the Quran in a beautiful way, of course with good TGV, the Masha Allah.
He was unapologetic, he was well informed.
from a philosophical perspective, he he had his, you know, credentials and his background Islamically had his credentials and background.
He also had read Professor Peterson's books and listen to his lectures, you could just tell that right? I mean, it was really obvious that he done his homework and he was like a genuine person who had engaged with Professor Peterson's work. And that's another thing that sometimes people in our don't do, you know, like, we, we want to talk to people about ideas, but we're not willing to listen or read or engage with their ideas, right? And so we come across as fake. But here mashallah brother mama the job he he had very
sincerely, I think and properly understood. Professor Peterson's work. And I think that's, that's what made the discussion so good, because Peterson sensed that Mohammed II job got him, you know, because if you think about it, Peterson is one of those people who people don't get, like a lot of leftist even Muslims who are like, engaged with activism, etc. You see them really like hate Professor Peterson, right? They hate him. They, they call him a what do they call him a Nazi? I've heard people call him call him far, right. But that's what makes it really obvious, that they have never listened to him is that they do that. Right. The fact they do that means they actually haven't
been listening.
I don't think he's a far right, you know, shill or anything like that, at all, I think, if you read his books, and I've read both of his books, 12 rules for life, and oh, and beyond order. I'm also reading his book maps of meaning. If you read his books and engage with his work, you see, actually he's, he's, he's actually trying to, one of the things he's trying to do is kind of
bring the West back to its senses. You know, he's trying to bring the West back to its senses.
Because of this whole post modernism, and, you know, the kind of nihilistic tendencies that have now spread in the West.
I think one of the things he's trying to do is, is really, really get Western Westerners to reengage with their history and their past and quite a lot of traditional beliefs and ideas, right.
But I do think he's, he himself is a bit confused. You can tell that, you know, because he doesn't, he doesn't really commit to anything really fully in terms of religion, right? Even though he's, he really, you know, defends religion.
And he believes that it's something that's intrinsic and necessary for human beings. So yeah, so brother, Muhammad, the job was unapologetic, he had the credentials, he was confident.
And he followed I think, the principle of seek first to understand and then to be understood, you know, in the famous book by Steven Covey,
the seven habits, right, he says, doesn't he seek first to understand and then to be understood? If you do it that way? You have more influence, and you have you really gain the person's trust. And I think that's one of the things brother Muhammad the Job did.
And I wanted my sons to be able to see that to see the unapologetic, proud, confident.
articulation of Islam. Right. So
I want to hear from you guys like, what are some of the things like what were your favorite moments?
What were your
favorite moments and what were some of the things you noticed about the discussion that
you know, you thought were really amazing, really good. Or maybe you didn't think were so good, you know, will be really interesting to hear from you. I'm going to allow some of the people who are requesting to speak to, to make to join me in sha Allah and this is the first time I'm doing this. Okay, so please bear with me. Okay, I'll go for brother Shaheen sha Allah.
Salaam Alaikum. Brother.
Salam Alaikum, everyone, sister,
Fatima for allowing me to speak here? I think there's quite a few thoughts. I'll try to keep it brief. So some one of the things I liked about the podcast was the fact that both of the speakers were, you know, very intelligent, very well read and very well spoken as well. They, they engage in a discussion rather than debate. Because, you know, we've had a lot of debates, we've had a lot of, you know, back and forth and whatnot. But these time, we have actual discussions and conversations and try to, like, you know, understand each other and genuinely communicate to try to build those bridges. Definitely, these two did very, very well.
But on the flip side,
there's pros and cons to this, obviously.
It's not necessarily a bad thing. But, you know, I think Muhammad Allah job is, you know, thought majors and so
Professor Jordan Peterson is like, you know, a saint and probably older than my father, actually. Definitely. So, in that sense, it's like they, they're not really on the same wavelength, and understand necessarily a problem either, because, you know, teachers and students take them to sit down, have a conversation, these kinds of things happen. But why would also be interested in is, you know, I just hope that Dr. Jordan Peterson, does that limit his guests to almost guess rather to most of our appeal, and Monteggia, if he does decide to include other people lecture comes in. So for example, despite the disagreements and stuff that you might have, that they are on more of a
wavelength in law, again, shows us of it's very well read, and it's very well, you know, well versed in both of these traditions, the Islamic tradition, as well as the Western intellectual tradition.
On a personal level, you know, when I, when I was a fresh graduate and stuff, I was quite, you know, hostile to Western academia and the Western intellectual tradition and stuff. Like this list is kind of thing. And, you know, from various experiences, just because I was, you know,
it's not just because it was drilled into me, but Hamza Yusuf was one of the few people who genuinely opened my eyes up to the, to a possible integration of both of these worlds, you could say, and someone like him, because I know, obviously, Dr. Jordan Peterson did invite him and it's been postponed by a conversation on that wavelength probably. Again, you know, humans are not
that one might be a bit more than interested, interesting conversation, just because they're both on the same wavelength. That the same background that, you know, there's a bit more of an affinity
compared to someone like Dr. Jordan Peterson and Bravo Muhammad hijab. It's a fascinating conversation. Excellent conversation, very pleased, and glad that it happened. Yeah, I would like to see a wider variety of people there as well. Definitely. I think, can I make a comment about that? Like, you know, when when I first heard I mean, I've been actually tweet tweeting, Jordan. Yeah. You should say he should take you on the podcast as well, because I think he may
say that not to you anymore Gemini until I bet that was a bit. But you know, like you've been, I've seen your like channel for these other random TV shows and stuff, you Douglas Murray and Nick carpeting. I've seen that. Whenever that is a nightmare.
You're one of the few female voices that we have.
In you know, at least that I'm aware of, who's not only, you know, strong and confident in the in the scholarly side of, of Islam, but also that the narrative that you put out, is traditional and Orthodox standing in line with the mainstream and I was obviously there in your presentation Oxford as well. And you know, it's refreshing having a sister who gives them an alternative to the feminist understanding of Islam. And of course, you know, we can understand why a lot of our sisters are going down that kind of lactose route, but it's quite refreshing to see someone like yourself who's traditionally trained as in you know, from Oberlin College, going to seminars.
So yeah,
You've got to seminaries going to universities, and by going to saw us and stuff you didn't have to come one of those typical saw slot
on your presentation was sort of a hook shows me that you actually understand what's going on out there, the hotter you're reading these kind of books, you're, you're engaging in these kinds of, you know, on the Dawa scene and stuff. Like, I think having a sister, about someone like yourself, on those kind of mainstream platforms would be quite interesting as well.
You know, please make dua for me, because
I think seeing brother mom with the job do it. I think for the first time, I realized that it was actually possible for it to happen, you know what I mean? Like,
sometimes, sometimes you have to see your own people, you feel like, you know, like, in a particular position for you to think, Hey, I could do that, you know.
So, any law that knows best, but yeah, I would love to engage with somebody, for example, like Jordan Peterson's daughter, for example, right? Like if she was, that would be a good place to start, right? Like somewhere where she'd like to talk maybe, or find out about women in Islam, you know, I'd love to. And that's the thing, these long form discussions, there's just so much more refreshing, you know, like, then the traditional kind of TV, kind of sound bites that used to happen. But regarding your comment about Hamza Yusuf, etc. Yeah, so I've been tweeting Jordan Peterson for ages, like, you know about Hamza Yusuf. And especially when I saw you know, his video,
especially when I saw his iron Hirsi Ali video, you know, and even before that, I thought, well, you know, is he only gonna engage with, like, people who are hostile to Islam? Right, that's, that's what everyone was thinking, right? Especially since so many of his ideas resonate with us as Muslims, right. And our principles, so it was like, just like, such a shame that he wasn't engaging. So I definitely think that, you know, somebody, like, Chef Hamza use of, and I remember, I spoke to Brother Muhammad the job and he also said, you know, that would be good, you know, if, if, if Peterson speaks to people lecture covers us, but I was having this discussion with some, with my
husband, actually. And we were talking about that, you know, like, check Hamza Yusuf and other people who, in a way, I don't want to be like, simplistic about it, but
in a way, you know, sometimes when you're doing power, a person sometimes needs to see themselves in somebody in order to be amenable to that way of thinking, let me let me give you an example. Once I was, I was in Regent's Park mosque. And there was this white, non Muslim lady who had just come to visit the mosque. And she was sitting there and, you know, I was,
she said, I've just talked to visit the mosque, you know, I just like to, and I sat down, I tried to you, she said, You know, I want to know about Islam. And I started to explain things about Islam to her. And you know, and this is when I was a lot younger, like a teenager, I think. So I was much younger than her, I was an Asian, you know, British Muslim, but, you know, Asian from an Asian background. And she was like, an older, white lady, right.
So I could see that she was connecting with me, but, you know, it was kind of a limited connection. Few minutes later, sister, a white convert sister came in. And she began, she struck up a conversation with this lady. And I could almost immediately see a different level of connection between them, you know,
simply because, you know, this is just human nature. When you meet somebody, and you think, oh, this person comes from my background, this person looks like me, this person comes from my intellectual tradition.
There's something that just clicks, right. So, definitely 100% I can see the benefit in that. But at the same time, brother Shane, I would argue that there are having, having, by the way, I've benefited from Sheikh Hamza Yusuf over the years, I mean, if anything, he was the one who motivated me to want to go abroad and study you know,
from just from his lectures, you know, back in the day, he was like the yeast instill confidence in us, right and in my generation anyway.
But one of the things I would say is that, I was having a discussion, I was saying to my husband, you know, people are under estimating brother, the power of Brother Mohammed II job going on to this. Why? Because look, what one thing is for sure. I think Brother Muhammad hijab said certain things that share Hamza Yusuf and a lot of the kind of into
actual Muslims, if you like,
would not say, you know, I really think that. And that's because sometimes when you get, you know, up there in academia, or you're like, really, you're used to engaging at a certain level, sometimes you forget to talk about the bread and butter stuff, you know, like, the really important things that really reach people's hearts. You know, I don't think she comes to us for, for example, would recite the Quran, right? I'm just saying like, of course, I don't want to criticize him. I'm not I'm not here to criticize anyone. I'm just saying that. Yeah. And he, there's, there's higher in every Muslim, there's higher in every Muslim, you know. And so that's why I don't really like the
narrative that I've been seeing sometimes on, on the meat on social media, and you haven't said this brother Shane, but I've seen others, you know, like, sort of dismissing brother mom with the job, right. And so
I think that's wrong. I think that actually shows that we have an inferiority complex. Because we don't want a war. We don't want an Arab to go in front of,
you know, we don't want an Arab to go in front of him. We don't want somebody who's, you know, like us. He's, he's, he doesn't come from that kind of elite sort of background, maybe, you know, privately educated background, that some of the other people people mentioned, like, you know, do like a Murad,
Hamza, Yusuf, etc, come from, right.
I think it kind of shows that we have a bit of an inferiority complex. And we don't realize that actually, one of the great things that brother mom with the job did.
You know, I heard people saying about him saying to him, You should wear a suit.
I've heard people say, you should wear a suit and tie, you know, like, you got to look the part you got to look the kind of professional Muslim academic part, right. But you can see that he I believe, I haven't spoken to him about this, but I believe he very deliberately wore, you know, traditional, yes, traditional Islamic clothing, right. And I think that was a very powerful, because at the end of the day, what are a lot of non Muslims scared of, you know, they're scared of the bearded brown man, with a thorough job, right? Like, that's what they're scared of. So when they see the bearded Arab man with a job,
you know, speaking, intellectually speaking, eloquently speaking their language, understanding their culture, and he's from their culture as a Westerner, right?
I don't think we can underestimate how powerful that is, you know, even though in our minds, sometimes, you know, we think, Oh, it needs to be somebody like this, it needs to be somebody who looks like that, or who behaves like that, etc, etc, etc. So I think we need to be aware that sometimes we have a slight, I don't know, I don't want to call it an inferiority complex, but possibly is, you know, and so.
Sorry to cut you off here. therapy with what you're saying, is what I was hinting towards earlier about. Dr. Jordan Peterson doesn't just leave it.
looking the way a lot of people that I've seen, you, obviously, were on different forums and different things and whatnot. But the way I've seen people talk about this is like, instead of a job,
I don't, I don't think that should have been the case. What should have happened is like, take on both. You don't have to take them on the same day. But take take both of them on for different reasons. Like for the benefit would be, you know, we just mentioned about this woman by affinity, like, there's a convert probably in my in my town, I link up with him every now and again and go for walks and stuff. And he basically said, I've known him since I was, I was a teenager and stuff like that he was like, he must have been practicing, or he must have converged to islam about seven or eight years before.
And now obviously, it's been, you know, quite a long time since then. And now there is aging a lot more. What is what he said to me is, the more I age, the more stronger I feel a connection with my petitioner. So my British culture, my whiteness, essentially.
So that point, like he makes a lot of sense, because, you know, as people get older, they just find a lot more comfort
in who they've already become, not, you know, they stopped their journey and stuff, don't they? When it comes to youngsters, teenagers exploring, they don't really have a traditional, they don't have a culture yet. But as you get into your your mid 30s, or something like that, you're you're basically fixed on who you are. But remember, remember also that Peterson is used to engaging with students, right, like he probably meets and has engaged with and has spent time with young people more than the average person, you know, and even people of, you know, different backgrounds. So I don't think he's like the average
I don't know, old white man. Like, he's because he really kind of, you can see that he's very patient because probably he's dealt with a lot of young people, you know, like you guys students, right? He's got his office every, every week. Right. So he's
interesting point, you mentioned that,
you know, the kind of people like he's had to deal with are generally, you know, the younger generation or you know, 90s and 2000s kind of kids. And that's why he has a strong aversion, you could say, against
Gen Z, kind of leftist, leaning gangsters. Was that kind of helps having Mohammed hijab on there, because usually, when you see like, you know, brown people, young people, so if you automatically think, oh, they want to be left wing, they want to be feminist inclined, and stop right away, neoliberalism inclined, and Muhammad hijab as a British Muslim notice, obviously, a fundamental difference between British and you know, we see on Twitter all the time, you get Muslims and us Muslims, obviously, Jordan Peterson is in in Canada, what happens is, within the UK, we have a very, very different demographic, and having a, you know, someone like Muhammad hijab, visibly brown guys,
obviously, not from our white couldn't culture, but he's completely against neoliberalism. And he made a very, very clear as well, he's a vocal critic against it. And his young is obviously a millennial, I think, I think I think he's, he's a 90s baby as well. And then
just make both when you're still recovering from an illness. So yeah, having a job. Having someone like Muhammad hijab on there, dispels a lot of those. Exactly. The stereotypes, definitely. And also, I think, we can't like I said, you know, sometimes certain people who've been in our for a long time or who've we're not really in doubt, they're more sort of like in the Islamic teaching space, you know, the scholarly space. Sometimes they won't do the basics things like recite Quran, or even like I was thinking, you know, Brother, brother, Mohammed has a down mentality. And not everybody, you know, especially like, I don't know if you've noticed this brother Shane, but you
know, going to seminaries and stuff, sometimes a lot of the Alomar types, right. Obviously, I respect them, because, you know, I'm from them, I think from the least I spent time with them, and my father is an alumna, etc.
Sometimes, in our seminaries and our kind of will a mock class are very far removed from our like, they literally do not engage in dour. Right. And that's one of the things I was quite surprised about when I did go to seminaries because I came from my era, right, like from this real dour from what you could call the baggy class, right to the orlimar class. And I noticed this kind of apathy, you know, like real apathy, when it comes to sharing the message of Islam. There's a lot of kind of, you know, let's po exist. Yeah, that's, there's, there's a lot of that there's a lot of, you know, solving the problems of the Muslims, where it's very, very kind of, what's the word like, we're just
very
inward looking.
Whereas I think it's more of a more of a cultural kind of thing within certain segments of the of the community, I wish exactly the same thing, because you're saying I came from,
I used to watch a lot of properties, like in nice before school and stuff like that, you know, watching all those kinds of debates and stuff. And they eventually when I went to the room, obviously, I had a vision that I does not come from a religious family where everybody's color, and then I have to fulfill that expectation with something which you know, most of our classmates and stuff, probably your classmates as well.
You know, that's the probably with the context they came from. So one surprise that I found is that hold on, nobody really cares about things like, you know, the existence of God or evolution, or, or neoliberalism.
These kinds of things. But yeah, so having someone like Muhammad hijab on there, just he maintained that, you know, he just maintained what his objectives were, and he didn't try too hard, or, you know, what we find a lot of American Muslims doing, and this is
something we'll find within the content was the community as well. I think they tried it too hard to gain acceptance. Well, yeah. Tim impress basically just to impress, and it's like, Oh, yeah. Like, are you gonna work on Islam is compatible with the West? It's like, yeah, we're harmless. Basically, to show them we're homeless and
it does is basically it reinstates the western values and norms of traditions and assumptions as superior to adopt. Yeah, definitely. Basta, right like White is right. And we basically you know, We rightfully so
suspect to bad things. And so the onus is on us to, to change that. Whereas Muhammad hijab comes from a very unapologetic background. And he's like, not hold on a minute, we're going to do it very differently. We'll keep that vision in mind. You don't like about reciting the Quran? So I'm not sure if you've watched the debate with David Wood. That was the first time he did that. That was his, you should definitely watch that has a
very insightful and entertaining debate simultaneously, it's definitely worth watching. And so yeah, obviously, David Wood is a completely you know, it's not an academic thing. We just fit it in there.
Yeah. So my job went in the, you know, very professionally, very academically, and then he recycled and stuff as well. And when it comes to rebuttal stage, that's when he's, you know, his Twitter kind of site came out. And it's an interesting thing, but that's the first time where he actually restarted on to the public, I think that's a really important, you know, thing to do, not only because of what he Jobs said, you know, I want to give you the full Islamic experience.
The academic background that I'm coming from, is, I was at the University of Warwick doing Islamic education.
So as you in Islamic Studies background, so
yeah, so I get from Islamic education background, which is, you know, looking at pedagogy, looking at, you know, methods of teaching and you know, education, philosophy, psychology, understanding people's personality types, all these kind of things, right. And one of the one of the important things about those on, you know, under, under underrecognized, you say, under served is the aesthetic of the Quran. So the Quran originally wasn't, you know, we look at it as a book, like a return printing,
from Pakistan culture, whatever, wherever the primary audience of the Muslims as as in the sahaba. And the pagans of NACA, they didn't receive as a textual book, he was an oral performance using oral speech, and that performance, and performance is probably not the best word to use here, they essentially said that he was an adult Saudi, and the experience that the primary audience, and initially your photo put on wasn't one of reading, it wasn't one of reading the text and noticing around stuff is they heard you they heard the melodious tunes, they have the, you know, the phrases are quite different from what the the style is different from what they used to. And, you know,
that's why they sit next to them and shelter. This is not the word of the human being. So those kinds of,
you know, sort of neglect to my daughter, as well as the probably
background. So
apologies for that. I mean, and so, from a pedagogical perspective, you know, sometimes you do have to give them that shock. It's not necessarily a shock that, you know, Laura Harper, from Princeton University, she has recently published a book on Arabic poetics. So you know, literary theory and Bulava and that kind of stuff like, what what is it about the Quran that makes Democritus emitted that the, the inevitability of Quran and stuff like that? Yeah, so she's got a presentation that's worth watching on YouTube as well, a book came out recently. So she basically proposed an idea of the aesthetics of wonder. So you know, that
so, you know, essentially when you reciting the Quran to the pagan Arabs
or people
know, Baba, so people who have absolutely no exposure to whatsoever, what essentially happens is, you know, the windows rock
as the word of Allah, right? The speech of Allah at the end of the day, right? The speech of Allah so is gonna have an effect. It's, it's, it's a medicine, it's Shiva, it's SubhanAllah. And I was just thinking, you know, think about it, like, especially Christians in this country, right? They are so divorced from their original language of the Bible, right? Like they've never imagine, just imagine that imagine never hearing the Quran, right? And only ever relying on translations your whole life. Like you have had a deficient spiritual experience, you know what I mean? And that's the majority of Christians, if you think about it, they've never heard the book of Allah, you know, even
if it's corrupted form, recited in the way that it was revealed. So Subhan, Allah, I really think that all of those aspects are very powerful. Another thing worth pointing out is, look, you know, what, when we used to do when we were talking to people about doubt, and how to give doubt, one of the things we would say is, obviously there is the rational side of it, but there's also the human kind of connection side of it, right. And I think Brother Muhammad hijab did that very well. Especially, you know, in that he should
Professor Peterson that he really had engaged with his work, but also the things that he said at the end, you know, that Muslims would welcome him and that he was welcome to come to the masajid. And all those kinds of real, you know, like, things, I think that they really touched him. But another thing we used to say in Tao is, look, you don't have to provide the complete,
you know, message, you know, like, if you're not able to do everything is okay, you are one part of the puzzle, right? So I remember for example, when Abderrahim used to, used to talk to us about how he came to Islam. He had like a, I think, a servant who used to pray in front of him, right. And in Egypt, when he's lived in Egypt as a teenager, there was a servant, a kitchen, I think, a cook, they used to have Egyptian guy, and he used to pray in front of him. And that was the beginning of the dollar. Right? Then later, somebody on a boat, talk to him about Islam, right about Jesus. And that was the second part of the puzzle. Then later on, he must have met Muslims who, who put another
piece of the puzzle in place, right. So I don't think we have to, as you said, you know, any hope hopefully, Professor Peterson engages with different Muslims. But the point is that no one person is going to provide the full pieces of the puzzle, right? It's going to be each person each and in fact Subhanallah I would go so far as to say that before um, hammer the job before Akyol before all of these even hums the use of anyone who Peterson could have engaged with it was the ordinary Muslims right? Who used to meet him because even said this, he said Muslims used to meet him at his talks. They used to give him like a little piece of paper that say please talk to Hamza Yusuf, please talk
to please engage with the Muslims you know, and it was those ordinary Muslims who had a who who you know, relate to him in a positive way. Were respectful towards him and gave him a tip for example of different names that of Muslims that he could engage with even on Twitter even on elsewhere. I think all of those people have their share you know, in sha Allah in
in doing our and it's not just our to Peterson that's another thing we got to point out. Right. This you could see Brother Muhammad the job is not just thinking of Professor Peterson here, right. Professor Peterson is yeah, it would be great. Of course, we want any everyone to come to Assam. We want to invite people to Islam, whoever they are, right, every single soul is important. But I think Brother Muhammad the jab had
the audience of Professor Peterson in mind as well. Right. And I think that's, that's, that's really important because I'm just going to read so thank you, Brother chain, I'm going to allow other people to have a chance and I'll allow you to get back to your daughter in sha Allah. I'm just going to now
I'm going to read some a comment. For example, under the you know, the, the Jordan Peterson video that somebody posted I've you've probably seen this comment because I've been I retweeted it. You know, somebody called Ramon activate auto. I think it says my mom got COVID My grandpa is in the hospital. My baby sister's car was hit by a bullet. Gosh. And when I heard him recite Quran, I was washed over with peace. I'm a Christian in Mississippi.
J S, what does JS mean? Sorry, I'm really ignorant when it comes to
American states.
Okay, is it jersey? I have no idea. Sorry. Um, so yeah, you can see that the people in the audience, right, are listening, that they listened to the Quran, you know, potentially hundreds of 1000s of people got to listen to the Quran for the first time. potentially hundreds of 1000 people got to see an Arab, a bearded Arab with a thought basically, right? Talk in an English accent in a very articulate way. For the first time. I'm going to allow somebody else now to who's requesting to speak Can you hear me? So I'm an echo. Icon slam? Yeah, I should probably use the less silly name in future but yeah, so my thoughts on this I one thing I'm glad you brought up towards the end was the
was the point about responding to Dr. Peterson's audience because in a lot of the reactions I've seen to this, especially as associating mentioned about, oh, we should have been so and so on, and so on and so on. We
and even the discussions about expanding, expanding it to two other influential Muslims I've had like, about a committee and different thoughts about, you know, scholars and, and academics who, who I'd love to see him engage with him.
The thing that I've feel as neglected in these discussions is considered because the thing is really, when you're talking to someone like Jordan Peterson, as you've, you've kind of pointed out already, you're not just talking to him, you're talking to the 4 million plus people, or subscribe to on YouTube, follow
whatever. And you have to consider
which demographic he speaks to, why, why he resonates with them, and what Muslims have to offer them. It's not necessarily about obviously, it's ideal to, you know, it would be ideal to, you know, give Islam as a whole package. But as you said, that's not necessarily, you know, the sum necessarily what we can do, but we what we can do is look at what these people will respond to. And the thing, I feel like the common denominator, or the common thread between most of his audience is he typically speaks to young, confused men. And, you know, for multiple reasons, in the same way that
a lot of young women will respond to feminist ideas. A lot of young men are equally confused about their identity, especially in the modern world, and with the expectations on them. And this stigmas around them the social context in which a lot of young men grow up in, he speaks to that he gets, he gives people a sense of identity and
an idea of security in who they are. But obviously, Islam is it does the unknown. And I feel like that's in the Muslim reaction to this on social media, a lot of which is unfortunate, negative, but I don't feel the need to
address that. But in in all the speculation about okay, he should speak to so and so should speak soon. So we're not really talking about what it is how how we can best reach that audience. I think the thing they will respond to Inshallah, I hope he does speak to, you know, scholars who focus on this topic, is the idea of masculinity. And I believe, like, Imam doubt, worried has a book, releasing soon on foot two. And that
talking point, for
one thing, I found kind of, sorry, if I'm rambling, by the way.
One thing I found, I'd say, it's probably my only real gripe about the discussion. Even, I wouldn't even call it that, but
was the whole thing about, you know, addressing the existence of God, and addressing the, the new atheist movement, like I get, what I get why that subject was brought up. But frankly, I don't think that that is as relevant now, as it was maybe a decade ago. Like, I feel that people are not, I don't care, I don't really keep up with it to be seen. So if I'm wrong, someone correct me, but I feel that people now respond more to trauma as an emotion than that it's not not no longer necessarily a polemic thing. That's why I brought up the idea of masculinity is a very emotional thing is to do with your sense of self. And so I'm hoping Inshallah, that that that subject can can
be brought up as, as he speaks to more and more Muslims and child lock. When I heard him say, once, right, I actually heard him once. Categorize characterize the West as having become very feminized, okay. And he was describing the Muslim world as
you know, like, still still kind of nurturing masculinity, you know, and not seeing it as a negative thing. So I think he he's already quite aware of that, but like you said, the audience
but Can I say one thing or the other? I think it's a little bit of a stereotype to say that Jordan Peterson's audience on young man, I know that that's like what the popular media often says about his audience, right? But you don't you don't get a multi million you know, copy, best seller, but only selling to men. Do you know, I mean, if women are buying his books, I bought his books. I benefited from him before I kind of thought of him as somebody who, you know, Muslims could engage with you
really because, you know, like Subhan Allah, like,
you know, I liked his advice in his books, for example, about telling the truth, no matter what, you know, tell the truth, or at least don't lie. And I remember, of course, that's an Islamic thing, right? Like, we were not meant to lie, right. We, our word is so important, but
for some reason, the way he articulated it, right, and as an as an as a maxim for life.
I remember ever since I read that chapter, I've been obviously I try not to lie, right. But I mean, I made it even more concerted effort not to say things that I don't believe, and not to say things that he says, make make you weak, you know, and ever since I've done that, I feel like it's changing my life. Right? There's another chapter in his current book, which is about nurturing the romance in your marriage. Right? And subhanAllah like, that was such a useful chapter, right? For somebody who's been married for like, 20 years, you know, it was just such a such a beneficial and useful chapter to read. So, and I'm a woman, right? I'm a Muslim woman. So I would say, I think it's a
little bit of a stereotype. And the other thing is, he does have the new atheists who listen to him, right? He's he is one of the only people who's not an atheist.
Who they kind of respect, you know,
you can see when he had his debate with Sam Harris,
the fact that other even Douglas Murray, I'm sure he was an atheist, and today seems to have become kind of a bit in between now. Right. But, you know, the new atheist they they're willing to engage with him. I think probably he's going to have a discussion with Richard Dawkins very soon. I've got a feeling he's been building up to that.
So I do think that, in a way, actually, brother mom with the job provided him with an additional argument against atheists, because he talked about the fitrah. Right? Do you remember that bit where he talked about the argument from internal, you know, like, a belief or instinct, instinct. And that and he gave him support? Like, he actually gave him a reference, right, like a academic reference or he could use? So in a way he he's helping, he helped Jordan Peterson in his discussions with the new atheist. So I think so Pamela, you know, there's like, multiple ways you could look at it like this. And, like we said, it's impossible for one person to benefit. Like so many people who come from
different backgrounds, and but definitely the New Atheists
have suffered a blow ever since Peterson has been on the scene.
But Professor Peterson hasn't fully kind of, I would say he hasn't completely decimated them. Do you know what I mean? Like from, from his argument perspective, you could see it in his debate with Sam Harris and a little bit reticent little bit. He's he was excellent, but he kind of backed off
too soon, I think. And he hadn't thought through everything. So I think that's why he's happy to talk to religious people.
And someone like Muhammad, the jabber comes from a philosophical background as well, because he actually helps him
have his debates in the future with with New Atheists. So just a little time brother, I'm going to
move on and chat a lot to somebody else. So some of my econ
before I do that, I'm going to read another comment under the Jordan Peterson video. There's a Christian guy called Zack Henson and he says, excellent podcast, Muhammad and Dr. Peterson. I lived through the mid throughout the Midlands in the UK for two years as a missionary for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Is that Mormons, I think, right. And had some positive interactions with members of the Muslim community, as well as some negative ones. This podcast brought peace to my soul, and helped me move past some of the negative interactions I had in the past. Thank you, Muhammad, you have my respect and appreciation.
Love see so you can see that like I said, it's not just about Jordan Peterson I heard people saying Why is everyone so? Like, why does everyone so desperately want Jordan Peterson to become a Muslim or to to like Muslims or to engage with Islam? You know, it's not just about Jordan Peterson first of all, I find that comment really patronizing and racist as well. Like I've heard people say, you know, oh, everyone's getting excited because a white man is, you know, like
engaging with Muslims.
It's not about that. It's really not about that it's about as Muslims, we should care about every single soul, right? We should care about every single muscle, every single human being. Right? The reason why people getting excited is because he's got a huge platform. Right? And, you know, he's got that popularity has got that following. And and yes, it's because it's not it hasn't been that easy to engage with Western intellectuals, right? It hasn't fought for like traditional Muslims or for Orthodox Muslims. Because we're never offered a platform we never offered that kind of invitation to speak in in any kind of genuine discussions, always. You know, the type of phone calls
I used to get and I'm sure other art as well is, will you please come on this show to defend the niqab? Would you please come on this show to I don't know, talk about this terrorist incident, right, etc, etc, that that was that was all people ever wanted to hear from us about, never about What is Islam. So the fact that brother Muhammad was able to articulate all of the major aspects of Islam, right, convey the message of the Prophet sallallahu sallam,
he did the most important thing that he could have done, actually, which is conveyed the message. Like in my era, one of the things that we used to teach is in our course, was what we call the Go rap method, or the Go rap, dour kind of framework. And what that was, I think a lot of people have forgotten what that is now, because I don't know if they still teach it. But basically, instead of becoming obsessed with defending aspects of Islam, defending something that somebody asks you about, what you do is you turn the conversation and talk about the most important aspects of Islam and establishing those, and those are God's existence. So this is what go rap stands for, right God's
existence, oneness, Revelation, and prophethood. And brother, Muhammad hijab covered all of those aspects. Beautifully. Mashallah.
So I'm going to let somebody else
tell me what their thoughts are.
Please, when you begin, just tell us your name and where you're calling or where you're tuning in from, in terms of like, which city etc. It's not Monica. I think it's brother akanji. Is it?
Oh, Sargon. Yes. So that's awesome. Yeah.
He preys upon Momiji job once more. I haven't heard somebody engage with the West in terms of Dawa in that style since the days of heart and data. And it is most important that the Quran speaks for itself, in terms of its strength, by recitation, and I was very, very pleased to see that.
One of the things always hoping to see was a reminder to the Christians that Muslims are actually waiting for isa Islam's return.
And that he he will, he will be our leader at that time. Also, sometimes that's somewhat missed. But, but what I found most fascinating about the Peterson speech was that Peterson didn't attempt to iconoclast the West as a democratic model, or as a, as a sort of near modern
thing that encompasses a fluffy type of religion, he very much engaged with a Muslim on the basis that the West is a Christian paradise, really, and that in terms of the future, whatever those negotiations are between a group of Muslims that will be with a group of Christians, not a group of Democrats, or a group of liberals, so in Peterson's mind, is very clear that the West is Christianity, and that his future is a Christian future, which we'll need to negotiate with a Muslim, future Muslim president, as opposed to this this line that we are told by our politicians that democracy is the model that they're pushing forward, as opposed to anything else. And I found
that quite fascinating.
I think he sees Western liberalism as being born out of Christianity and
but I do think that there was a point where he actually said, I count Islam as being a Western religion. He actually said that during that I didn't fully understand what he meant by that. He said, Because it's, it's the people of the book. Yeah, he said, because when people have the book, but I wish I would love to hear him like explain that a bit more like, Well,
do you know what I mean? Because he didn't completely exclude Muslims as being part of the West.
Well, I think I think he didn't go into too much of the history that he was aware of. So I think if we're imputing things, we're speculating, but maybe it's to do with Spain CORBA, the fact that the resource comes through an Arabic or an Arab
and Islamic concentration of those texts, and the resources kicked off, or re re re learned through Islamic protection of those texts could be that that's a nod and a wink or a recognition of that historical debt that's owed. Yes, or,
I don't know. I do think that Peterson's thinking is evolving. You know, the more he talks to people, different people you can see, the more his thinking is evolving.
And I think he's it's evolving in the direction of now, you know, subhanAllah, he used to talk about the Judeo Christian, Judeo Christian, Judeo Christian West, right? He was always talking about it in those terms. Now, he doesn't talk like that so much. I feel like now he's lost kind of realized, wait a minute, Islam is not like some alien, Eastern religion. It's actually a continuation of monotheism. Right? In fact, it's, it's the pure form of monotheism that, you know, the Christians definitely lost, right. So I do feel that his thinking is evolving as time goes by. And so that's actually what makes it so interesting
about the synergy of people's under effectively thermal heat.
So he recognized that whatever the future holds is for the 8 billion 10 billion, depending on the future, looking at those, those numbers of people largest number of people have been supported under the under the head idea of monotheism. But vast majority of people are planners, if you can Muslims, Christians and Jews and saviors, the vast majority of people have been able to cooperate because of that melodious. he laments, though, that because of the watering down the idea of Hello, theism, that's what's leading to friction between groups now, because it's lost its meaning, I feel that that's something that the West as a Western problem, not a Muslim one.
Because we're quite still quite defined and clear about what Merleau theism means. Now, the reason I say that's a Western problem is because, you know, they've had very recent issues in the church about whether women can be priests, whether you can have gay marriage, even against textual, textual prohibition. And these are, you know, Pan Western discussions that are going on. And these are discussions not about Christianity, but actually about politics impinging upon the doctrine of Christianity. So that's where the watering downs happened, not within any sort of Islamic framework. And also post modernism, right, like he's war against post modernism, I thought was hilarious when
Muhammad is you have said to him, you know, you are liberalism is not going to win the war against post modernism, Islam can, you know, it's almost like saying to Peterson, hey, you know, adopt Islam and you can win this war against post modernism?
You know, I would go so far as to say, Okay, this might be a bit of a jump, but
I think Jordan Peterson admires Islam, I think he knows is the truth. Okay, the reason why I say that, the reason why I say that, is because I think he's scared of scared of realizing that it's the truth, okay. But the more he you hear him engage, even at times, in the midst of actual discussion, there were almost these moments of like, you could see epiphanies that he was having, right? Were things that he's been saying for years. Islam has, you know, already, so I feel like he already knows that Islam is the truth. But the one thing that it feels like is standing that was standing in his way, one of the major things was reconciling how the Prophet salallahu Alaihe Salam could be a
warrior.
And that be a good thing. For some reason. That was like a sticking point in his mind, I think, right. And I thought it was, it was great, the way Muhammad hijab
wasn't afraid to talk about the warlord comment, right? To call to take him to task on that. And of course, Professor Beaton was very, I thought quite, you know, humble about that and
kind of accepted that he'd been hasty in calling our Rasul Allah salAllahu Alaihe Salam, a warlord
but I think what was great was that Mama they just showed him that being a warrior, right?
Right is not in congruent with being a great man and a great prophet.
That's the most important point. He, he drew attention to prophets who were warriors and even slow.
So it means the
thesis of there being a problem with the messenger of God, being a man who's not afraid to wield a sword is, is undermined by, by by Christian Lee, Christian accepted experience for profit. That was the end of the discussion really. And even then, when when, you know, their interpretations of the Bible isn't the Aramaic, but if the the famous phrase the meek shall inherit the earth, I think even Jordan Peterson said, that's a mis translation. What it really means is those who are capable of wielding the sword and choose not to, shall inherit the earth. And I think that's you might be right about Peterson's evolution, because of him to make that point about the Miss translational the Miss
iteration of the idea of Meek as a word, as opposed to strong, but but peaceful, consciously peaceful, as opposed to Meek is maybe a realization of that concept that Muhammad hijab drove home ready with examples? Definitely. Parent brother, I'm gonna move on to somebody else now. But I want to highlight that, you know, I think that's a big deal. You know, the fact that he highlighted that, you know, this, this Christian narrative of Jesus being all like, kind of Ali salaam, being completely like, like a pacifist, right? Who basically, you know, turn the other cheek and all that stuff, right.
It's such a fallacy, like, there are places in the Bible where Jesus was very harsh, you know, very tough against, right, the moneylenders and various other other things. And also he, you know, he stood up for something right?
Just before
the SES he sort of slum when, when his mother Mary was left with the SES, they were a warrior, tribal, purely men, who were training to fight the Romans. So Jesus was born, his firstborn was born, surrounded by warrior tribe, basically, yes, yes. And as you say, he you know, he wasn't afraid to deal with the money that is the heart of the economy. So there are there are, you know, rebuttals, to all this idea of peace that exists within the accepted Christian doctrine of what the nature of Jesus was, and his birth and things that we accept as well, that can be raised. But in any discussion, it's a two and throw. And not everyone's going to think of all the points
in time. Yeah, definitely. And then mama did did mention the Second Coming of Jesus, and he sang, he did actually mention it.
Subhanallah, there was just so much to talk that there's so many things to mention, you know, like, I think it's impossible to have like, properly addressed everything in as much depth as everyone wishes that he could have. But he did. Definitely talk about the Second Coming and the fact that we believe in it. So the thing is, these are like little bread crumbs, right? Bread crumbs. So now people who have heard about that now, I'm sure there's like, 1000s of Christians who for the first time I've heard Wait a minute Muslims have all these beliefs about Jesus. Okay, let me go and look it up. Right? So now they're going to go and look it up, they're going to go and sit check out,
okay, what do Muslims say about Jesus? What do Muslims say about the Second Coming? So the purpose of a person who's giving Dawa or conveying the message is not to necessarily give every single thing, right. You throw some bread crumbs sometimes and people will then you have to have you have to have trusted people, they're gonna go and look stuff up. Right. So I'm gonna allow somebody else to have a say now. Okay, I think it's somebody from Saudi Arabia. So Armonico. Brother, the harm is it.
I'm sorry, I don't know how to pronounce your name. My name is Mohammed Abdullah.
How are you guys, thank you for thank you for the space sister, Fatima. Thanks, everybody for being here. I just have a little experience to share because, by the way, I'm from Saudi Arabia,
currently in real city, when I was
when I was a little bit younger. The first thing I'm like, I came around the idea of atheism,
because of the fact that I just say, I can speak English, like, I learned English at a very young age, like the idea of atheism when I was a teenager, and it was a very terrifying idea. Because in Saudi Arabia, we're essentially tribal, like family can and things of that nature are very important to us. And also the families is pretty much very religious around me. And if you don't know something about the bad ones in Saudi Arabia, our slang is filled with liquor.
Even the signs in the guise of the streets is also filled with liquor we all know
Have I mentioned in garden on our tongue?
A premium insert in various ways. So 10 years later, right now I see like, because when I was a teenager, I almost wrote all
the new atheist books and things of that nature. And it was incredibly terrifying to me. Because despite the fact like, at the time, when I was a teenager for me, I kept faith despite of everything, because I couldn't believe that there is no God, because I saw him everywhere when I was a teenager and hamdullah. Still, and seeing right now, the new atheist movements backing off and seeing less movement are ascending at this current stage is just my simple very humble opinion is marvelous, because I truly believe new and new Atheism took serious blows. Definitely in 2015 2016 2014.
I couldn't really fight back with the ACS, and you can't you feel it just says that they just say they're moving ground against us. But right now Alhamdulillah thanks to Brother Muhammad, Sharif Hamza, Yusuf and all, and all of the individuals involved with the Derawan general
honest seeing hamdulillah the our movement is definitely ascending a lot of individuals throughout the world, they know things about Islam hamdulillah more than they used to. And
I'm just gonna have a little bit of a comment, I never really managed to become an atheist. I couldn't I like, since a very young age, like praying was very important. I'm not perfect, I'm not gonna claim to be perfect. But I, I couldn't. But at the time, like it was, it was genuinely terrifying. And you don't know something about like tribal individuals in Saudi Arabia, were very rugged, we're raised to be rugged in a certain way, we're from incredibly masculine. Like, we have a masculine tradition that dates legit, say, hundreds of years, like my family, they're warriors for the last 600 years, things of that nature. And it's pretty common in Saudi Arabia, all of like, all
of the tribes, the major tribes and playing it, but all of them are actually warrior tribes, like our culture is very, it's pretty, it has a very strong, militaristic element to it. And, and at the time, when I came across the idea of atheism, by the fact that when I was a teenager, or unfortunately, like St. fightings, or things of that nature was very common for me. I almost cried when I read about atheism, because I couldn't fathom the idea that God did not exist. Like, for me, it was a pure impossibility. And I asked him something, please, Brother, how did you come across atheism, like, I know, this sounds really, this might sound really ignorant, but like, when we
imagine Saudi Arabia, right. And of course, we've been to Saudi Arabia from raw for Hajj and things like that.
It just doesn't seem like a place where you would be able to easily access
at atheist material, like, but it sounds like you were kind of really, you know, like, immersed in. Like, for me, I read books since a very young age.
And my father may rest in peace. He was like, he was a ferocious reader. And I found Charles Darwin's books on the theory of evolution, my mother was very religious. So these are books translated into Arabic, or just read them in English. In Saudi Arabia. It was it was in Arabic, and I found it in he like, he has to let me mess around in his library. But that book in particular, he was very angry. And my father was incredibly rugged, like his body was filled with bullets when he was a young kid, he fought in many wars. And he was very angry at me because of the fact that I looked at that particular book. And I was kind of curious, I never asked him about it. But
unfortunately, the religions, our way of our way of dealing with religion is not pretty much like it's my way or the highway when I was asking like schistosoma powers and things of that nature is about the theory of evolution. They used to just tell me no, it's, it's not it's not a fact Shut up.
Instead of engaging and answering the questions about the subject I was looking into the subject in, the more I read about it, like, the more terrified they became, I remember some of the first videos that I watched for Sam Harris. I almost cried to be quite honest. And I couldn't really understand why because, like I continue to read like, because I know that there's a there's a disaster, but I couldn't put my hands around it. How do you How did you find how did you find Sam Harris?
Some of my I belong to a tribe. And he would like some of my family relatives are in Syria.
Like some of them are in Kuwait. Some of them are in so I used to
Call them and and tell them let's just say to bring me books from a board. You know what I mean? Okay. So smuggle to me all these atheistic types of books, and I used to read them. And honestly, when I first came across these ideas, I almost cried because they were pretty much very terrifying to me. And I remember one of them, like his English was not very good. And he used to think that I like the interface or whatever it is to think that these books are actually books on the genetic genealogy of the Arabs at the time. Because that's exactly what I told him because he knew that I was actually letting him bring me books from a board that are not pretty much books on atheism and
things of that nature books on philosophy.
He wouldn't probably wouldn't have brought them to me, and you know about us, like we guys in the Middle East, like we travel a lot. You know what I mean? And bring in books. It's not, it's not that much of a big deal. But after reading for a few years, I found out, I came across Nietzsche, which managed to articulate my problem with atheism, because if we, if we don't have God, that then what is the center of our ethics,
I felt that there's a void that I couldn't really put my hair hands around. Then I started to read for the books for federal services like Crime and Punishment possessed. And also Notes from the Underground, which pretty much managed to give me a more, a clearer understanding also, Jordan Peterson, Sheikh Hamza Yusuf
hachimura
Those individuals and but not at the time,
I couldn't just help but to feel a certain loneliness. Because of the way that we because of the of how atheism was prevalent, like in Saudi Arabia, atheism is not pretty much all that problem, because we're very connected.
Like we come for us, I truly believe that, like, family plays a very significant role. Almost all of the major ACS has trouble with their fathers.
It's almost impossible. Like I never saw someone who just simply left his family. It doesn't happen like for me, like, I will tell you,
I have over 1000 cousins, and it's not something that is uncommon in Saudi Arabia, that's the norm. You know, what I mean? Like, what is the tribe, a tribe is a family that stuck together for 2030 generations, and my Bibles just say, all of those 1000s individuals, we have a shared sense of culture. And we belong to a bigger prayer branch that belongs to a bigger branch. That's, like, I meet someone that I share a common ancestor with 1000 years ago at a regular basis. And it's not something that just say that is outstanding, or anything of that flat 70% of the Saudi population.
And then our ethics and definitely the tribal ethics in the general ethics, and there will be a peninsula is
centered around the existence of God.
It's pretty much centered around the existence of God. So when I came for, like, for me, the idea of atheism was alien. I couldn't wrap my head around it, like I couldn't understand. It's almost like watching a very difficult mathematical equation. Like people say that God doesn't exist. I said, How come? It's impossible that God did not exist? So the more I started to understand that idea, the more depressed I actually became at the time.
More because, because,
because you didn't hear the counter arguments. Yeah. Well, I started to hear the count. I can't remember exactly what happened to me, I was going to do my prayers.
And I was like, 17 years old, or things of that nature. And, and I was devastated at the time. And I just, I was looking at saying, God, just give me any signs. I'm here Don't Don't,
don't leave me and the guy Subhanallah, the, the guy who was speaking at,
the Imam said, those who look for the truth needs to seek it, you will find it. I went to the I remember, I went to the internet cafe and I started like just saying, to look for the argument for God's existence. So started to come across shift hamstrings
to come across.
So there's a few arguments that actually refuted the idea of the theory of evolutions and things of that nature. So the argument was there, you know what I mean, but it was not let's just didn't have that much of a spotlight. Or maybe before it was, let's just say some kind of conformational bias because I was simply because also the way that we approach religion here in Saudi Arabia, unfortunately, and it's not exactly because of the fact that humbly now it's our approach, because
I have a lot of religious scholars in my family, like with the passing of time, especially right now, because of the fact that the tremendous pushback that they had upon them, they were forced to read
And when they were forced to read or Subhanallah, their views have changed, because they just expanded the horizon a little bit.
And it's the way that it was before. Like, it's not this certain type of families that had the monopoly over religion, how religions can see. And because I studied
currently in practicing law in Saudi Arabia, and I studied political science, and I looked at the demographic
structure of Saudi Arabia, how tribes work, like 100 years ago, it was different, it wasn't that restricted. And matter of fact, let's just say there is a certain region, Saudi Arabia that has that.
They've had a very stringent view of women. And they pretty much explore that and say,
capable learning so much. They just simply
spread it. Everyone made their make their view of religion is pretty much the whites. The mainstream in Saudi Arabia, for example, it was they were primarily Maliki Shafi, and the north of Arabia, most of our tribes, like it was common for women to smoke. And matter of fact, my grandmother, she smoked cigarettes at a
regular basis, and she's incredibly religious. And the north, they were right now they're incredibly stringent, but back in the day, like, according to the books that I read it, they were, they were a little far more lenient. So there's a certain version of Islam that was incredibly stringent.
The mainstream in Saudi Arabia, and it was kind of enforced upon us to be quite honest. And it was one of the main reasons for legacy, incredible extremism. I'm not going to tell you that Islam doesn't have a militant element to it, but it did like, well, it's not incredibly offensive. It's mostly defensive.
But these views that we currently have, let's just say in Saudi Arabia, like right now, we have a pushback, definitely, definitely a one on one at
flip. But those individuals who were before let's just say, overly stringent, like I've never disintegrating, or things of that nature, while the tribes that were definitely far more lenient, they're just as conservative as they were before because for them, it was pretty organic. And also another thing for me, like religion was or praying, it was, it was never something difficult to do.
Like, around my family around my environment, despite the fact that I'm not I'm gonna tell you we're not. I'm not perfect. I'm friends. I'm not perfect. But the idea like our vocabulary is filled with vicar. I know some of criminals, but I know their slang is filled with Vic. Yes, thank you, brother. Just listen, I do need to allow some other people to have this thing as well. I read No, but I really appreciate I really appreciate the things you've highlighted. Because Secondly, you know, it just goes to show I mean,
actually, I have a similar. Sorry, I have a similar
experience in that.
Not Not, not from atheism. But when I was a teenager, I was reading some books about Saudi Arabia, actually, and how women are treated in Saudi Arabia. And obviously, there are books written by Americans. And I just have happened to find them in my dad's bookshelf, somebody had given them to him. And, you know, I was reading them. And like you described, you know, I actually felt really down I felt really depressed when I read those books. And I thought, gosh, you know, like, Is that Is this what Islam says about women? Or, you know, this can't be the Islamic vision of women because like, you know, I never ever doubted or had any kind of doubt about, you know, Allah, I've always
had alone my life. But when it came to, you know, this narrative about women in Islam, I remember feeling very depressed about it. And then,
actually, something similar happened for me, which was that I actually discovered the videos of the Raheem green, and check Hamza Yusuf. And in those days, you know, Saroja Herge.
A lot of the American like that but also especially Abdur Rahim green, I think, because what other him did was he his cassettes and videos, they broke Islam down right from the beginning, right? from first principles, and just establishing that belief in God, that belief in the Revelation, but even you know, the prophet heard, and then everything else sprung from that. And for the first time, I've heard the answers to those arguments, right to those doubts or those questions that people or those kinds of aspersions that people cast upon Islam, especially regarding women, and so the point is that the answers are out there. The answers
are out there. And we as Muslims have got to aid in the spread of those arguments, those, you know, that narrative, and especially with our kids SubhanAllah. There should be no.
There should be no question that's off bounds. You know, like, if you can't answer a question that your kid has about Allah, you need to go and learn, you need to go and figure and learn it for yourself, and then be able to have that conversation with your child. Because if you don't have that conversation, somebody else is going to have that conversation. Right? And it could go anyway.
So I think our generation definitely have got to not shut kids down when they want to ask even the most, you know, strange questions, and we've got to engage them. We've got to make them familiar with like, this is what I mean like, this is why I got my sons to watch brother Muhammad the job because I wanted them to see because you learn a lot, don't you from listening to other people and how they articulate something and one day they might be in a situation where, you know, they're at uni, there's a professor or someone who's saying something against Islam or misrepresenting Islam and they can they can make an argument and intelligent argument. So, Charlie, I'm gonna ask
I think it's the Muslim gays.
Salam aleikum. Please tell us where you're caught where you're joining us from and
tell us what your comment or
point is that you'd like to make about the Peterson hedgehog podcast episode.
Okay, Salam Alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh
Hi, everyone, I'm from Indonesia.
I just want to share my experience in watching from a teacher besides the Holy Quran in front of all that was the man who does not even understand the language as a contemporary Indonesian Muslim. So just to give you a bit of context, despite being the current most populous Muslim country, Indonesia currently has state supported
Islamophobes and oran is going ramp and EPs and lapses, politicians bully ordinary Muslims on daily basis in social media. So we have like a fall Islamophobia, political climate against the backdrop of China's Deathtrap diplomacy. And only a couple of weeks ago, we have a military general say that people should refrain from speaking Arabic, as far as one should pray in Indonesian language, everything under the guise of disassociating yourself from the terrorist image under the Western gaze and the whole global war on terror ideology. So against this political charge as homophobia, climate, hearing Muhammad ECheck confidently talk about Islam and recite the speech of love
is a touching experience, especially right in front of the so called Western gaze represented by white male Academy like Professor Peterson. So I think how my teacher sets a new benchmark for confident Muslim to stay authentic in front of the so called Western case. And I deeply appreciate his decision or what Professor Peterson called procedural procedural approach in articulating Islamic belief to non believers. That's all I want to say.
Thank you, Sister, Ferran for joining us.
Wow, did you hear that? I mean, subhanAllah, you know, we forget that, you know, nowadays, there's an international audience listening to these things, right. And Muslims in the east, hummelo that, you know, one thing I've definitely noticed when going to places like Malaysia and other eastern countries is
you know, people all over the world actually do look up to Muslims, especially in Britain, you know, like, especially the.in Britain.
And they see us as role models, you know, they see what we're doing as
really a shining light, you know, for them to follow as well because I don't think there's any place on Earth at the moment that isn't under some level of assault when it comes to you know, from liberalism from kind of capitalist liberalism, if you want to call it that. And materialism, right. So I think it's amazing and really powerful that the sister from Indonesia Indonesia found it inspiring to hear a Muslim unapologetically recite Quran, right in front of millions in front of a white man and not apologize about it not be embarrassed but do it proudly and say, you know, I want to give you the full What did he say?
was want to give you the full Islamic experience right?
Before I call somebody else, I'm gonna read another comment that was
posted under the video and it says,
someone is saying, Man, I almost teared up at 31 minute, 31 minutes and 30 seconds from the recitation. And then I imagined myself being able to recite like that as well. And it actually made me tear up. I don't know why, but the recitation really does have an effect on me.
Believe it's a non Muslim, somebody,
a YouTuber, who has like, 173,000 subscribers,
Master way, I have no idea how to pronounce his name. But anyway, subhanAllah you see? So as we were saying, it's more than just about
Jordan Peterson, it's about the audience about, you know, the people who are going to here.
A couple of things I wanted to mention is that
I think also for a lot of Jews and Christians.
For a lot of them, you know, because so Pamela, sometimes, their families and their communities also try to protect them from Islam, right? Because they see Islam as obviously they know that Islam, Muslims are trying to invite people to Islam. And you know, they'll, they'll sometimes demonize Islam, or maybe misunderstand Islam. So I think for many Jews and Christians who would have listened to the podcast, it would have been the first time they've heard our narrative, and the Islamic kind of
the Islamic narrative regarding essentially Salah regarding monotheism, regarding the prophets, from my experience, when Christians and Jews do hear about it for the first time, they actually very surprised, you know, they're very surprised, and often pleasantly surprised, because sometimes, especially I've noticed this with Irish Catholics. Sometimes they'll say things like, Well, I never really believed that Jesus was a was son of God anyway, or I never really believed he was God anyway. Right. And they didn't realize that there was actually a religion that you know, and he chimed in with that with that narrative, right, which they could belong to. Right.
So Alhamdulillah I think it's really good that Muhammad hijab was able to convey the Christian sorry, the Islamic narrative regarding a Saudi salaam, the Prophet Jesus, any sunnah? And, and of course,
the other prophets. Okay, let me see who else would like to have a say?
I think I have someone called Mary Johnson on the
in the space. So don't worry classes to Fatima. Can you hear me while you can Salam rahmatullah wa barakato.
Excited to be here with you? Thank you so much for hosting this Masha, Allah Hamdulillah. And humble, I'm glad you could. James. This is my first time by the way doing doing?
I tried.
I tried to do it last week. And my microphone ended up being off and everyone was complaining and I didn't even realize it. So this is the first time doing it properly in this technology can be Yeah, it's great when it works, right.
What are your thoughts on this? I wanted to what you had said about I, I'm I'm in I live in the United States. I'm American. Okay. And just south of Jordan Peterson in Canada. And, and so I thought was very fascinating, what you had mentioned about the how Christians and Jews
Yeah, are kind of isolated, right from learning about Islam.
In part, at least in America, because of the curriculum, you know, the kind of the very staunch separation of church and state. And so I grew up Catholic. And I remember when I started learning about Islam, when I was in high school, it was exactly like you said, I was very
I remember I remember watching the
there's a buyout there's a documentary about the life of the prophet Muhammad sort of a sedative, and it's has Karen Armstrong and and a few other scholars, Muslims, kind of a mix of people, religious scholars, and I forget what it's called, I think it just called Muhammad the Prophet. Some of them but I remember seeing the Arabic I had and for some reason, there were subtitles on the bottom in Arabic, and I remember seeing it scroll across the bottom of the screen. And I was mesmerized. I loved the way it looked.
In sound, seeing what is this language and say, but again, like what did you see across the screen? Sorry? Oh, sure I saw the Arabic Oh scrolling across the screen. And I remember faulty my loop just looks so beautiful. I loved the script and the way that it flowed and I thought, wow, what is this so it was just maybe a few years later that I had the opportunity to start learning Arabic have to learn it was at a mosque in Boston. And that's where I really started to learn more about Islam and about the Prophet especially said it within them. And I have to say, I don't know if any of the other listeners feel this way. I really felt that the Prophet Muhammad thought I said them in a
self. Elisa them were like spiritual brothers. I didn't see a distinction in their teaching. And that's what brought me to Islam. 11 years So, excuse me 11 years ago, I'd have to learn how to share that with my viewers because I with your viewers, because I really
it really resonated with me what you said, it was so true for me that when I was exposed Islam, it was almost like natural. It was like, oh, yeah, why would I not take that step?
To Zach Callahan, thanks for sharing that with us.
Yeah, I remember hearing Sinead O'Connor. You know, the the singer,
the Irish singer. I remember hearing her say that, you know, she cuz I've heard her talk about her conversion to Islam and saying that, but I've always been a Muslim. That's what she says. Right? And what she means by that what she means by that, of course, there was a day when she took the shahada, right, but what she means by that is, when she found Islam, she realized that's what she believed all along anyway, you know, like, I mean, regarding Jesus specially on Islam, so, yeah, I think Subhanallah you know, yeah, I think it's, it's, it's this, this podcast, is a huge opportunity, because I do think there are a lot of Christians who follow Peterson. And actually, there's a lot of
Christians who want him to convert to Christianity. I've seen him like, go to these big Christian gatherings. Right? I wish Muslims would invite him. You know, I heard that Muslims did invite him years ago to the
RIAs, you know, the reviving the Islamic spirit conference, but I think some people made a false and then he was cancelled. But, you know, I wish Muslims would invite him and, and kind of, you know, give him that, that kind of
the love really that, that Muslims are able to do? Yes. And I think I think it would, I mean, just just just look at how he reacted when I don't know if you, if you saw it, how Muhammad when Muhammad the Job said to him, you're welcome in any mosque, you know, and Muslims really admire you and they were, your message resonates with me, his eyes teared up, right. So I think Christians have been very good at inviting him to things. But they they're a little bit pushy. You know, they've been, I heard in one of the questions in our q&a sessions. Somebody said, you know, why have you not converted yet? Or when are you going to convert? You know, and he didn't? He didn't like that
question. You know, he didn't like it. So he hasn't really committed to Christianity, I would say, even though I think what it is, is that he that's the that's the system, or that's the belief system that he understands the most.
And so that's why I do see him as evolving, you know, and the more he's finding out about Islam, you can see that the more his kind of language is slightly changing around Islam and around Muslims. So I'm hoping that a lot of Jews and Christians who do follow him definitely because, you know, he's had a lot of kind of people like, what's that guy's name? Ben Shapiro,
and other Christian pastors and figures, he's had them on his show a lot, right? So I'm sure each of them have Christian and Jewish followings as well right and right wing followings, as
I'm sure that this will be. For some of them, it will be really annoying that he invited an orthodox Muslim, right, like, what's he doing? What's he doing engaging with them? Right. But for others, I think they'll be like, curious, and there'll be quite surprised, I think, unimpressed. And I hope, I hope that actually, I agree. I hope he's going to open doors for other podcasters to consider, you know, Orthodox, if you want to call us orthodox Muslims, you know, because
even people like Joe Rogan, one of the things you notice is that when one of them invite somebody, usually that person ends up doing the rounds, right, like, and gets to get to go on other people's shows as well. So I'm hoping I'm hoping
But
they kind of everybody kind of has an idea of what they're going to say. So they're like, Okay, we Yeah, that's something that we're, we're happy to engage with. So let's grab that person. Yeah. Kind of rather than an unknown entity. Yeah. And each of them, each of them have a different type of audience, right? So if Joe Rogan invites him on, I think that's gonna open things, even wider ranks, obviously Joe Rogan's, like, I think he's got, like, the biggest podcasts in the world, right. And so I've never actually listened to it. In part because it's the biggest podcast tonight. I I'm sometimes I'm a little bit cautious about things that are super super popular. Yeah. Me, you know,
that's just me being cynical American. I think I think he would really, I think he would really get on with my with the job actually. Because, you know, he's into all that kind of MMA stuff. And I think Muhammad the jab does jujitsu, oh, I'm not sure. You know, they'll have that kind of, they'll have that bro stuff in common, you know, and then, and then I'm sure that they'll be able to have a good conversation. And then on the other hand, someone like Russell Brand, I think would be good to have hammer the job on and engage because Russell Brand is more kind of known for the left, but he's, he's kind of, you know, I think he's, he's another interesting person who I think is searching
for meaning and kind of diff doesn't want to commit to any religion. You know, as he sort of makes up his own thing is like, kind of airy fairy spirituality stuff, right?
But whenever he's talking to Muslims, like I saw his podcast with Yusuf Islam, I listened, I listened to that, you can tell that he admires Muslims, especially those who came from that kind of background, right, who then embraced Islam and the the kind of fundamentals of Islam, you can see resonate with him, but he seems to be the sort of person who doesn't like to commit to rules in certain types of rules anyway. Yeah, I hear that, yeah, I hear that there's, it's wonderful that there's been so many Muslims who have come on to podcasts and really just shared about their, their, their perspective, and whether it was specifically about Islam, or whether it was just about they're
living their life. And
I actually, what you said, just now really resonated with me says to Fatima, that,
that they'll have something in common right, Joe Rogan and, and Muhammad hijab will have something in common because of this, you know, he does to to, to maybe they can kind of touch base with that guy stuff. And, and also, in his tweet really about, you know, the real influences that is on the neutral audience, about kind of everyday things is that concept of giving the Allah is often
you know, and it's something that I engage with constantly, you know, having a non Muslim family. And, you know, living in a non Muslim society, is that I've found that
it's really beautiful to be able to share Islam through actions and words and activities are non activities, without shoving it down anybody's throat, right.
You know, like asking Jordan Peterson straight up, when are you going to convert?
When Christians asked him that he didn't like that, because nobody really likes that, you know, like I said, we're all a little bit and it's just human nature, you know, it's okay. It's just human nature. We, you know, but things, you know, if you just kind of offer it on a silver plate and just say, hey, you know, like, you know, I've got this, you know, tasty stuff over here that I really enjoy. Maybe you want to enjoy the meal with me, I don't know, you got it, you might not. But I'm over here eating, you know, like, you're welcome to come here. And it can be hard to convey that when there's so much negativity,
at least, you know, and where I live in the United States, against against Muslims.
There's lots of good, there's more good than bad, right. And I can remember going and talking at various local news things, especially right around the time that President Trump was elected here in the United States back in 2016 2017.
And when that happens, I was invited to talk as part of my work with the interfaith group here in the United States. And I remember Fatima that they I would try to start with kind of like just a message of love like have us over for dinner we'd love to come and spend time with you why because who's going to get in everything about Islam and at five minute talk, right? So you want to go out and want to invite people to open up to their neighbors, but they were all they would always come back with questions of Yeah, that's nice peace and love and everything but but what what do you how do you really feel when people like attack you and it's like
I don't want to talk about that anymore. I really just want to talk about how we're great neighbors. And and if you really want to detail, then please get to know us, right? You probably know someone who's Muslim, come on over, get to know us, right? Like you, if you don't know someone who's Muslim, then reach out like, you know, this is this is a connected world let's you know, find somebody and I and I was a little bit I have to say sometimes disappointed because the rhetoric was always very, very negative, it was almost hard to get,
you know, a loving message to the people you know that the frustration of
this may not be a perfect analogy, another listener could comment but the frustration of Mecca, right like you're you know, when the prophets that I said I was first doing that one Mecca people were like, be quiet, right, like go away and
to the point of we're going to kill you. And it was a lot easier to do that when Medina but but sometimes you got to go through the Mecca, right like,
Pata last. So thank you for for all of this all continued to be a listener. And thank you for listening to me. Does that kind of hiring is really lovely to connect with you, sister, Mary.
Thank you. Thank you. And yeah, that was so interesting. Thank you for that system. I was just thinking that it's so important, you know that.
You know what you said about like, it being hard to convey the beauty, the love that. I think that's another narrative, right? That has been there that Jesus is about love that, you know, Christianity is all about love. And Islam is all about war hatred. And I think, in a way even like, the way Peterson started talking about Islam was in that kind of way, in the sense that obviously, they had to address the kind of warlord comment, right and all that.
But I think Brother Muhammad did a very good job of highlighting that Allah Subhana Allah is Allah dude, for example, right, that he is the loving and he, he, I think he really emphasized and showed that, you know, the, the, the kind of an even, muster factual actually to give him credit when he was talking about the profits on our salon, and how he had been persecuted. And I think, you know, it is about time that we we engaged the west with the Sierra, the story of the Prophet Salla salams life so that instead of this weird narrative that they have, right of him being some kind of warrior, only, right, only a warrior,
that they actually understand that, you know, he was persecuted for his faith, just as they have sympathy for essentially salaam right for being, you know, according to their narrative,
crucified, right, for his beliefs and for his preaching. The Prophet SAW Salem was persecuted, he was tortured. You know, subhanAllah today, actually, I've been writing. I'm writing a book at the moment I shall Ilana
about the eye shadow Dylan's life, and it's in the style of a story. And I was, ironically, I was actually just writing the chapter of where Abubaker the Prophet SAW Salem is praying in front of the garba, right. And I found his name Akbar, one of the Mushrikeen. He, he turns up, creeps up behind the Prophet SAW Selim takes his cloak off, and twists it around the Prophet's neck in the middle of Salah and tries to throttle him strangled him to death. Right. And not one Muslim will, because at that time, the Muslims were usually the slaves and the weak, the weaker class, right? Nobody, even those who were Muslims around, intervened, because, you know, they they just couldn't, because they
were too many of the of the Mushrikeen, around the kind of elite of Makkah, the only person who came forward was Abu Bakar, right, who basically fought about off and, you know, took the cloak away from the Prophets neck and said, Do you do you persecute a man because he says, My Lord is Allah. Right? And you know those stories. People in the West have never heard them they've never heard about the persecution, the pain the the love that the prophets Allah Salam had for humanity. They have never heard that. I think one of the biggest game changes will be when the story of the prophets of salaam especially the Macan period, is taught in schools. Seriously, I think that's going to be a game
changer. Because I think that negative image of Islam stems from not
Not having a kind of sympathetic, positive
understanding of the kind of the first story of how Islam came about right. Okay, salaam alaikum. Brother nurudeen Isn't
Abdullah welcome Salaam Alaikum to Lobo battle brother. What would you like to? Where are you calling from, by the way? And what would you like to Mecca, Saudi Arabia? Wow, my parents are there in at the moment.
Actually, my name is Nora Dean. I would like to just to give some light on what you have already said about the life of Prophet Muhammad Sasser Mecca says I'm living in Mecca right now.
The things that many people don't know that jihad or fighting back against those who tortured the Prophet sallallahu sallam was forbidden in the beginning. Exactly. Exactly. 10 years was forbidden, you cannot fight back. You just received the torture, you get patient. And you have Eman, you have the chance to make dua to be patient and to just know fight back
to anything like that. And was it difficult, difficult for Professor Salomon always have a companion profit at that time. But that was so they used to come to the professors and some of the companions.
They they came to him they said, Okay, how long? Are we going to stay like this? Fight back or why not? So the Prophet SAW Selim said to them, by the order philos pantalla, keep you keep straight your prayers, and be patient. That's all you can do right now.
After 14 years, we know the story better. And it gets longer. And that's what he wanted to say.
Zach, and brother. Yeah, exactly, that you see that that narrative, that narrative is never, we haven't been able in the West, especially to convey the story of the prophets of salaam to the wider public, especially with that, that aspect. And also the whole, even the Battle of butter, right? It was a reaction to the McCanns basically stealing and pillaging the belongings of the, of the Muslims, right, that they had left behind. And their homes. It was basically, you know, kind of fighting back for that right for that kind of oppression. So, exactly. I think just go home for that point.
In Are you opening spaces, all those open spaces, we can join later on, if you want
some of the stories and knowledge. That's, that's a great idea. You know, this is my first time I'm doing spaces. So. So inshallah I'm thinking, it seems like people are really open to it. So maybe we should have a regular thing. Maybe we can explore different aspects of the CRO something like this. In the future. Yeah, please look out for any space that I create. And do join us in Sharla. Just like my brother Hello, Soleimani.
Somebody
from Germany, your original
sorry, your your voice cut out there. Did you say you heard the podcast?
So I'm from Germany and Turkish origin. And I was waiting for this podcast and was very excited about it.
And the Quran recitation, it was perfect. But
to be honest,
it was it's, it seemed to me like, hijab was a bit nervous.
A bit very much nervous because I guess Jordan Peterson is maybe the most influential guy he ever podcasts
and in the western society, and I found him a bit nervous and also, I caught him a bit too apologetic, apologetic you when I'm sorry, brother, I've lost you in terms of I can't hear you at all.
But I think the brother was making the point that he found.
He liked the grammar station, but he thought that
there was some parts where brother Hammad was too apologetic. I don't know. I didn't I didn't feel that I just I did feel towards the end. He was very defensive. You know, like he got into he got quite defensive especially every time Peterson was
kind of seemingly comparing the west with?
Well, I don't think he was actually trying to do that. But maybe brother Muhammad interpreted it as that. He was trying to compare the west with Islam or like Muslims as being, you know, especially involved in war, stuff like that. Right. I think he did get very defensive, I would say that. I also didn't think he was nervous, I think
he was,
I think he was doing a very difficult job. I don't know if any of you have you ever had to speak in that kind of
environment, you know, it is very difficult. It's very difficult, because there's so much you want to say, there's so much you want to convey, but you've got to sort of hold yourself back. And you can see that brother Muhammad was really like trying to hold themselves back, right, like trying to really listen, and not kind of
not get too kind of,
you know, emotional or anything like that. So I think I think Brother Muhammad did a very, very good job, you know, subhanAllah, there were so many parts where, okay, I'll admit, I don't really follow brother mom at the job, usually, you know, so I'm not I wasn't really that aware of his background is actually the first time I heard that he had like about a billion degrees or have many degrees, he has like, four, three or four degrees, right? And that he's now doing his PhD and, but all of that really showed it really showed, you know, in the arguments that he was making, because he completely understood the philosophical arguments, he he was able to convey those he understood.
You know, liberalism, he understood how to talk about Islam in a way that somebody who comes from that paradigm would be able to appreciate it. Right and appreciate different aspects of it.
And I think, you know, mashallah, he did a really good job. I mean, I think it's really easy to criticize, you know, it's very easy to just sit there and kind of say, should have could have this, that and the other, but
I know that just from my limited experience, how difficult it is. And so based on that, I would say you did a phenomenal job, actually, you know, may Allah Subhana Allah reward him. Okay, I'm going to let somebody else have a make a comment inshallah.
Slowly, come further.
I see.
met your husband and children. You said, you've met my husband and children.
Anyway, the point I wanted to make right now was, I think, Mohammed, his job is a very interesting character. People get confused by him. He's kind of like unexpected Swindle. Because the way he presents himself, his accent, it makes him like his is like from the road from the average working class kind of background. But then when he speaks, yeah, it's very hard for people to argue against him in debates. That's why it's kind of criss crossing between these hierarchy, higher social hierarchies that we have
a class and he's also not afraid of debate and discussions. Anyone he puts his debate his reputation on the line
all the time, is Richard Dawkins. Sam Harris. Ben Shapiro is up for debate. And so I think that's what people appreciate. Completely agree that when people
Oh, dear brothers gone.
But the suburb is here. Let's ask Brother Suburu. He thinks some Alaikum brother supper I hope hope I can hear you.
Can you hear me?
Hum the lamb Glad you could. I didn't expect it to be this late actually. But Subhanallah people have been engaging all evening and we've had some reverts some converts on we've had people from Saudi Arabia Indonesia saying that they listened to the podcast with Brother Muhammad the job and it really increased the Eman Masha Allah so Allah hamdulillah as good firstly, just o'clock after setting this up. I think it pretty much needed a lot of people wanted to sort of express their views and stuff. It's always good to share something you said shut because I just joined now
about public speaking and you know how difficult it can be. The thing is,
you can prepare all you want but the questions can be literally anything and you literally have to
within a split second come up with the most concise answer you can. And also, you know
I'll get across the message in a way that
doesn't open up a can of worms because they are, you know, the awesome deep theological issues here. And you know, it could have gone,
you know, lopsided anyway. Yeah.
Sorry. It could have gone any way like, yeah, yeah, exactly. So I think overall, he did a pretty good job definitely underlie us. And you know, someone was saying earlier about the way he talks and it sounds like he's from the road. Well, he is actually from the road. Yeah, it's a story. I mean, growing up in the council
area in Queen's Park, which is just from the office, as you know, it's not exactly, it's not exactly Springfield.
It's, and that's, that's what makes it all the more impressive. You know, that's what makes it all the more meaningful, to be honest, like a brother support earlier on, I was telling everybody that, you know, I got my sons to watch it. And, like, you know, people when they say things like, you know, oh, you know, we need people like Hamza Yusuf. And like other, maybe more kind of senior scholarly type figures.
To do these kinds of engagements. The point I was making is definitely like, everyone has a role to play. But I don't think people can underestimate the power of, you know, an most a person who looks the way with his job does, right, the fact that he purposefully, I think he probably purposely wore traditional garb, right.
And could articulate himself so well.
From every single kind of philosophical background that you could think of, right.
I mean, I think that's what made it all the more powerful, you know, because that's right. Yeah, I think I think you're spot on.
And people can relate. I mean, we have to remember a lot of exactly example, young Muslims are not,
you know, a lot intellectuals from that perspective that you mentioned it. And they want to see the underdog. They want to see one of them. Get up there. Exactly, I think. Yeah.
Absolutely. And so you must have met Brother Muhammad the job since? Or must have spoken to him? How do you think he's, how was he reflecting on it? Do you think?
Um,
strangely, he moves on from one thing to another. So he just he was just focusing on the Ion hursey thing?
Yeah. And you know, it doesn't take much for him to just move on from one thing to another, could be just the delivery guy turning up.
We'll get distracted. Now, that's actually user centric, in a good way. And you know, it's not going to be like, in a way, I think this is what makes it easier for him when he doesn't take things like Oh, my God, this is a once in a lifetime. To get it. Right. It's more like, Okay, this is my law. You know, let's have this conversation.
Yeah. And once it's over, once it's over, move on. Yeah, I get that. Yeah. Yeah. It's like an exam, isn't it? Like, I always say to my kids, once you do, when they finished an exam, it's like, just forget about it. Now. This is done now. It's done. You've done it. Yeah. I mean, he was very, I mean, obviously, this was important to him, is to everybody, but things like for example. We protest. Yes. You know, that for him. I think, like, we've had a lot of conversation since then. Because he's just so into that, you know, and he is very much like, you know, because that obviously, this is an important topic and that type of thing. But again, that oppression is huge, as
well. It's one of those things. So, you know, it's, it's
it's one of those things, he can do multiple things at once, like yes, focusing on you know, the window cause then the ion only healthy debate at the same time working on, you know, his academic stuff, you know, Allah blessed him with
I think one of the things that actually what listening to him highlighted for me was,
you know, how important it is for us to have our the next generation be
competent in an interdisciplinary way. Do you know what I mean? Because if you think about it, subhanAllah I was thinking about this in the past we would have to out who had the philosophical arguments right. And we had to our to maybe they came from an Islamic like a scholarly background so they could give the kind of Quranic arguments. Yeah. But we didn't always have somebody who could recite Quran, you know, quote,
From the Quran, quote from the
Yanni the philosophical sources as well, academic sources, do you know what I mean? Like that that was that was actually one of the most
beautiful things I think about about it and it made me realize how important it is for us to be, you know, like well equipped and well trained in different disciplines. Yeah, absolutely. It's a bit like cricket.
I don't really like cricket, but I do know some of the important aspects of it. Like if you have a team that's losing and all of its cricketers, all of his batsmen are either, you know, gambled out, then the last couple of guys who are normally the bowlers, or, you know, the people who are the wicket keepers and stuff. If they have good
skills with the bat, then they can actually help the team win because it will round us. So that when you have multiple angles that you can look at something with and this same goes with Jordan Peterson. He's not just the expert. He's
like, he's going to theology philosophy.
I think he did. He did political science. I think initially, I think political science was his original subject. And then he moved into psychology and philosophy. And yeah,
exactly. So yeah, I think this is very important. And I think one of the things which
I've seen her job do is he'll find an expert in something, and then just sit at their feet and just try and learn everything like he tracked down shakable Sophia, who is you know, he's using some of his older videos.
And he just was following him around. Okay, teach me this, teach me this teach me this. I'm really sorry. I don't know Abu Sofia, what's he known for? Sorry, um, Medina University graduate, and he's
an expert, when it comes to certain theological issues and stuff like that. I mean, what he does is he finds an expert, like, he spent a lot of time becomes a source sees the ins and outs. And he does that he does that with everybody, he just finds an expert, and then just spends time with them is, you know, trying to download as much information as possible. And he's a quick learner.
So yeah, combining those things, and he has big ambitions as well. It's like, you know, you have to be thinking big and, you know, not limiting yourself thinking, look, this is my niche, and that's what I can do. But you just have to be a bit more expansive and say, I can do a lot more.
Absolutely. And, you know, I was I was saying to some, some interesting people on Twitter, were saying things to me, like, you know, you know, stop bigging up mobs, you know, like, Stop praising him is going to get to his head, right? They say things like that, or they say, you know, you're exaggerating, like, how, you know, how significant this is, etc. But, you know, somehow it reminded me of,
I don't know if this is a good analogy, but, you know, I might have been up, he used to actually worry that when Khalid bin Walid used to kind of win battles, right. And people would get really excited about Harley, they would get really, they would really praise Khalid, he was afraid that people would start attributing the winds and the kind of success of Islam to harlot, right, and they would get to his head, etc. That was something that almost banal was concerned about, but I was thinking Subhanallah regardless of that, you know, that's obviously something that's, you know, a personal thing for Khalid bin or need to have, you know, addressed himself, right. Regardless of
that, the fact is that, ALLAH SubhanA, Allah uses people as tools, right? Like, yeah, it's not about the individuals. This isn't about Muhammad. The job actually, this is about, first of all, my with his job is a product of our community. You know, he's a son of our community. That's the way we should be looking at him. And so instead of sort of being like, you know,
criticizing or even worrying if something's going to get to his head, whatever,
you know, just as you would be proud if it was your son, right, you'd be proud if it was your brother, we should be proud because this is He is a son of Islam. And his success and his ability to convey the message of Islam is a success for us as a Muslim community, we produced him, you know, I don't know if that's a good way of putting it but it is. I actually really like the way you explained that it's just a thought of mine. And the thing which is the most important here is Muslims need hope. We're not living at the time of the early Muslims. We're living at a time in which Muslims are seen as backward
It's, you know, we have ideological, political cultural attacks on Islam. And we need hope. This is one of the things which the feedback I got from, you know, the Uyghurs about the
the last protests, they said, This gave us hope that is not where we're in this. We're not in this alone. So, I think that's, that's what's important. I mean, we we can be, you know, super.
I'm not sure what the term is, but we can be exactly like you said, we could be like, Okay, well, we shouldn't really, we should be careful, careful of praising this. And, you know, just maybe, you know, downplay and stuff slides, but right now, people need hope. People actually need hope. Exactly. This is a good time. I mean, we've had many losses, right? We've had many, you know, I mean, we don't have good examples of Muslims in academia, hardly any. And when we do get them at the desk, sometimes secular. So, you know, if there is somebody who's showing that caliber and we should celebrate it, definitely read this book. Could you explain a term I have? I feel like I understand
it. But a lot of people were asking me, What does this mean? You know, when brother Muhammad the Job said,
Doctor job, first of all, why was one thing I thought was funny was Muhammad, the job always calls Peterson by his full name. I don't know why he kept doing that. But anyway, that's quite funny. He kept saying, Professor Jordan, it was out of respect. Yeah. I think you're trying to say Dr. Peter. And that's, that's one of the because the thing is he got advice as well, doing sure over the brothers and stuff. That's one of the things like don't just like, say, Jordan, and you know, casual tension. Yeah. And I think he meant to say Dr. Jordan Peterson, but he's just in the Yeah. And that that was just, that was just something funny, I swear. No, no, I thought he was very respectful and
really connected. So I felt like it was a great example of not only the arguments and the kind of being on point with the arguments, but also the social connection aspect. You know, I thought that was, that was very good. Yeah. So one time he said, was, he said, you know, you are he said to Peterson, you are in epistemological pragmatist, right. Okay. So I can define it myself. But I don't think I'm going to do a good job. Like, how would you explain that? What does that mean? Like? Jordan Peterson is an epistemological pragmatist. This is this is actually a good time to do some shameless plugging. So I just made a video on this today. Oh, the epistemic lessons from the Jordan
Peterson. Moment is our debate. Okay. So I broke down, what is the you know, what, what are they saying? Because there was a lot of things that were being said, yes, there was a cost of knowledge. So in terms of this, this start.
If we, if we first look at, say, the concept of truth.
One of the ways of defining truth is one of the philosophical positions is the intuitive thing that would mean you anybody else speaks about truth, what we're referring to is essentially what's known as the correspondence theory of truth, which is that our statements correspond to reality, what's out there. Now, that sounds really trivial and pedantic. But yeah, that's, that's like, the definition of the correspondence theory of truth, which is what most people mean when they are speaking about truth. So
from his perspective, he doesn't define truth like that. He defines it as that which brings about the most utility, most benefit.
Yes. Oh, yeah, exactly. So
what he was doing was saying to him, Look, you're
enemies, these postmodernist the people who don't believe in truth and you know, they want to construct their own reality and the people who are trying to push back against your position of critiquing them is not coherent. And the reason why it's not coherent, is because it is also relativistic, like there's, therefore you need a better position to come from which is Islam. Because Islam we believe in a correspondence theory of truth and we can break that down as Allah is the Allah the truth and therefore whatever Allah says is true. And then, you know, for us,
you know, he is also he's a he's a Darwinian
a pragmatist, right? So he's trying to bring in evolution to try and explain about adaptation and things which are, have those fitness values. So that's where he got bored in that whole thing about Islam and reproduction. And
that's how it all started. I thought that was brilliant as well, because I felt like, I think, I think Jordan Peterson was really surprised, like, wow, somebody who actually gets me, you know, like, who actually has read my stuff and actually gets what I've been going on about and isn't has, you know, you know, Jordan Peterson is always criticizing people for having low resolution thinking, right? Like, I feel like he he was like, like, just surprised that somebody
had engaged in this work to such a degree, you know, Mashallah. Which is also another lesson for days really, for all of us, like, when you're about to, like I was invited to have a discussion with Amina would do it once. I couldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't go at the time. Okay. But I'm just thinking now, you know, like, you got to read their stuff, you know, regardless of, you know, what kind of person you're about to speak to, you got to, you know, that whole maxim of seek first to understand and then to be understood, yeah, I feel like, you know, the way you do that is, by reading that put, that person has taken the time to write a lot of stuff, and put a lot of stuff out
there, engage with it properly, and then, you know, you'll have a more effective
kind of engagement with them.
Yeah, that's right. And that's exactly what he was doing for the past couple of months.
You know, reading everything, and not just reading, like, you know, the way you'd read a novel, but just really thinking about it, highlighting stuff, going through his old videos, new videos, looking at even how he changed his mind, which is why, you know, it's this concept of garbage book, this isn't but this concept of hyper focus and scattered focus. So
to be creative, you have to have hyper focus, you have to become, you know, laser focused on an issue. But then you have to have a scattered focus is in which you have a bird's eye view of that topic. And then you look at the other sub topics, and then you zoom in again. So creative, people have to have hyper focus, and creative focus. So hyper focus on shattered focus, where you zoom in and out. And you can only do that, if you are really well read in someone's philosophy. So Robert Greene, the author of 48 Laws of Power, and you know, that laws of human nature, you know, he says this, he says, you know, people look at figures like,
Napoleon and others, who they consider like, masters and geniuses, and they say, Oh, this guy's just as gifted and intelligent. He says, No, it's not that they're just prepared.
You know, he gives the example of Alfred Hitchcock that, you know, was famous about him was, he was so extremely prepared for for
creating the films that he did, that he almost look bored on the day rather than panicking about what to do in where's this? Where's that?
So it's the old saying, you know, is better to be prepared for an opportunity that doesn't come then an opportunity comes and you're not prepared? And that's the key that is not about someone's a genius is literally hard work. Yeah, and of course, Sophia from Allah right? Just absolutely does not love her brother super appreciate that. There's there were two other things I had just thought of one is you know, like sometimes I think people watch brother mama to jobs videos and you know, like obviously he he's a young he is pretty young crazy. He's he's pretty young guy, you know, my Charlotte pelicula. And I think look, you know, sometimes I think Subhanallah people need to cut
people a bit of slack you know, like, allow people to develop allow people to mature the way I'm looking at it if brother mom with is like this now right at this age. Just imagine inshallah you know how much he's gonna develop and mature. Even more, you know, as time goes by metal las Panatela. grant him Tofig and not another thing that I sometimes I've watched some of these kinds of doubt in the park type videos. I mean, I used to watch them in the time of during Green and I used to love him right. But the more kind of recent ones you know, like just just feels like a bit of a jungle when out right.
And I've always like, felt a little bit negative about it. You know, like some seeing some of the dogs the way people are engaging nowadays. Just feel
was a bit I don't know, a bit too argumentative and engaging ex Muslims and people like that a bit too much online, you know.
But then I was thinking today so Pamela as I was listening to this thing by Steve Martin, you know, the comedian Steve Martin. Yeah. And he was saying that, the way that he became like an amazing
comedian was writing a joke a day, I think he said, and, and also by going to, like, as many what are they called? Clubs, right? Like, as many gigs basically as he could, he did as many gigs as he could. And comedians, what they do is they practice as much as they can they practice their jokes in as many different settings as they can, in as many ways as they can. And that's how they refine and, you know, become better at delivering a joke. Right. And I was just thinking about that in terms of Tao as well. Right? And thinking Subhanallah like, although, you know, it's not everyone's cup of tea, the way people debate in, in Hyde Park, right? Speakers going up, but actually, it's like an
amazing training ground right to
to hone your skills in being able to discuss anything with anyone.
Yeah. I mean, I think it's important to
make a distinction between Dawa in general, which is, you know, very different to what happened in Speaker's Corner speakers corner is, is not really that type of doubt. It's, it's more like, you know, a battle of ideas is polemics as apologetics. You get seasoned atheist, as seasoned Christian missionaries are hardcore Islamophobes. This is all one of the things which when I first started going to speak as quarterback in 2010, you know, you use a basic argument you heard from somebody online, and you know, some Islamic course you went to, and you try it, they're in the park, and these guys will just smash out of the park, you literally be standing there, like what,
and I think most of
the successes that Muhammad hijab has had in terms of his debates, public debates and lectures, all of this goes back to Speaker's Corner. Because back to that, and it's not a nice place, it's not a nice space, it doesn't have nice people.
And I do understand why people don't like it. And I do understand why a younger people do like it, there is an age difference. You know, younger people usually have, you know, higher testosterone, and they usually want that binary, black and white. And they like these mean, you give a nice talk about, you know, something, and then no one's gonna watch it, probably two people. energyne. But if you could, if you have a sort of argument at speakers corner, yes. You know, people are gonna watch it as mostly young people. I mean, we look at the YouTube statistics is mostly young people, right? And then those same people 1015 years later, like, oh, yeah, that's not my cup of tea.
Yeah, I know. That, you know, yeah, exactly. So so that's why I think, you know, sometimes we have to have a bit more of a nuanced way of looking at things like, I'm speaking about myself as well, you know, even if it doesn't look very attractive to me.
The fact is that there could be a lot of hair from something that you yourself personally don't, you know,
don't feel attracted to. Right. So, yeah, so just like her. And is there anything that you want to say anything else? About the podcast episode or anything else you'd like to share with us?
Um,
not really. I mean, I think what's important is, this is seen as a
stepping stone to bigger things. Yes. Because I was really happy that I saw you tweeting Russell Brand and Joe Rogan and others. Exactly. Because that's the sort of support we need. Because, you know, I mean, I call this that our ecosystem, right? You get different people from different backgrounds and, you know, different demographics, and they're all up churning out the same sort of message.
And we need that we need that and you know, earlier you're speaking about criticism and stuff.
Criticism is, you know, not necessarily a bad thing. It's good to go.
You know, if I asked her job to join today, but he was traveling, so he, of course, he would have come and you would say himself, you know, he's learnt from criticism is not necessarily a bad thing. But yeah, I just wanted to thank you for setting this up. I think it's a great idea.
Sabir, I want to say something. There was an idea that I had that, you know, like, one of the things that the narratives that keeps being perpetuated is that, you know, the the Jesus that he said, you know, obviously he was very peaceful and Christianity is all about love and peace and Islam is the opposite. Right?
And we were talking earlier in this spaces session about how like, people don't really know about the struggles of the Prophet salaallah Salaam and of course, but the mama the Job did highlight those and actually, so must have accurate like, felt
I was thinking wouldn't it be amazing if we could mainstream the story of the Prophet SAW Salem, you know, that the side of it that people don't know the struggle, the love that he had for, for for human beings, right? The the suffering that he went through, in order to spread his message.
Imagine if we could mainstream the story of the Sierra, especially the Macan period. And it became like, you know, a story that everyone knew that schools taught.
I really believe that that would be an amazing that would create an amazing shift in paradigm for, for non Muslims. Yeah, absolutely. And we need to,
we need to have those narratives you're absolutely spot on. Because, you know, and we need to repeat them. We need to keep repeating it. I think that's what it is, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Because, look, we're now and just about, I'm sure you can resonate with this, you know, we're now at a point where, you know, say 20 years ago, we wouldn't have thought non Muslims would know, Tim, and no terms like jihadi job JimBob.
Islam, they know this. Now, they know this now. And they also know figures, you know, like,
you know, they will say, I shall say Khadija they'll say these things right? And we need to humanize them, we need we need to show Okay, so, you know, if I was to
walk out on the street, and obviously, I wouldn't do this, because obviously, this is
a Christian tradition. So, cultural tradition, so a Muslim couldn't do it. But say someone's angry.
You know, someone could say, What would Jesus do? You know, don't do this, right. So it's clear, you know, people have this thing, but yes, exactly. Loving kind, this type of thing. So we need that with the process of them. You know, he forgave his enemy. He did this, he did that. And I think, firstly, we Muslims ourselves need to be educated on that
before because we ourselves don't even for example,
you know, in terms of the Sierra, it's something amongst ourselves that they were studying with the Quran, right? We don't have that tradition in madrasahs and other places, is it starting to get there? But for example, you know, if you go to an average Muslim, and, you know, we speak about
Khadija, right? This Okay, she was, you know, there for him this happened that happened. But for example, you excellent book, you know, we just just given the title of mother of history's greatest nation. I mean, are you making Islam not look like what, you know, Peterson said is explosive, expansive, militaristic? No, it's actually the mother of this was Khadija like, it's such a different narrative. Yes, that's what we need. We need that, you know, human humanization of Muslims. You know, this such brilliant examples from the Sierra where, you know, for example, after the conquest of hybrid, where the process of them could have just kicked out and expelled the Jewish
population. Instead, he made a deal with them where they cultivated the land because they were better at the land. So very pragmatic approach we Yes, even Muslims don't know this. So I'll say stuff like that is needed. Well, you're spot on. We need to humanize all of the Islamic personalities and of course the process alone. Yeah, and we need to mainstream it make it mainstream make it repeat it on if your job goes on Joe Rogan. Repeat the same story, you know, like if it goes on Russell Brand, repeat the same story like it's just got to become
well known. You know, Muhammad SAW sort of just the way people took like he said, talk about, associate, he say salam with love peace, even though actually that's more like a, I would say,
was the word of a persona that they've created, you know,
really, the prophets Hasulam you know, we want him to stand as in their eyes as well as a brother of Jesus a psalm right and not not like the opposite of his only son. I'm so out
Just going to parent brother support for joining us for you. No worries. Okay.
Yeah.
Salam Alaikum brother.
Hello Salam aleikum?
Wa alaykum Salaam? Yes. If I did come up with Venus earlier, but one thing that I want to highlight, yes. Talking about sorry, can you just tell us where we're sorry? Where are you speaking from? Can you just tell? Tell us where you're based? If you don't mind based on Singapore, okay. Mashallah. Excellent.
Yeah, so we look at the our scene as it is,
we have large data, a lot of popular data is, especially in the UK in the US. However, most of our data happens in the format as debates, or like, for example, what happens in EF Davo, I see a lot of debates for long, five hour long.
And you're delving very, very abstract topics in philosophy, right to actually appeal to the theists and Christians alike. But what I would like to suggest is,
since we have so many good speakers, can't we have a documentary start focusing on documentaries.
For example, there are so many software's out there, for example, blender, or even free versions of you know, but like video processing software's.
If we can have like a community, and we can build documentaries together, this would be more powerful than having four or four hour long conversations on abstract topics. Not to mention these, these aren't important. These are very, very important, of course, but the documentaries are a tool that could actually reach a far greater audience. If you asked me, Do you mean like, Phil, documentary films?
like to add 20 minute long, 30 minute long docket, we can use 3d imaging, and
I mean, like, for example, non Gaussian is actually handled by by brothers and sisters who are really good speakers. But in this case, the Java we can attract many more people who have various other skills as well. And you can actually work activity, Java or Java to spread it. Well, look, I think, I think people look, whatever people's talents are, they need to use them for data, right? So if people are filmmakers, and people have TV channels, etc, they need to, you know, support the making of those types of films. I don't think there's, I think Subhanallah one of the great things about the Muslim community is we are full of talent, you know, we're full of talent, we've now
Subhanallah, especially this generation, we've got people in every single field. And so we can, you know, people should use their talents. If you're a filmmaker, make films, if you're good at, you know, speaking public speaking, if you're good at Academia, get into academia, whatever, you, you're good at, use that, if you're into cartoons, make animations, you know, like, I really think that there's enough space for multiple efforts. And I think we got to use every single means, right?
Okay, this is, this is where I have something to interject with. For example, I don't really design I do 3d animations. But if I were to start a YouTube channel on my own, I post my videos, okay, it's a lot of work. Okay. I mean, rendering, 3d animation takes a long time. If I need to get cloud cloud resources to render the animation, for me, it cost some money, not much by they'll definitely cost some money. So if I offer a person like me if I do have someone with a large platform already, right, and we can build a team around that, like an open source code, crowdfunding thing going on, right? It would be more powerful. I get that. Yeah, I get that. So So in other words, you're saying
people need to fund these things people need to make a more organized effort to to have these things you're right. I think we're very behind when it comes to media, different types of media, you know, definitely a need to need we need people with vision. We need people with vision powerful because if you want to see you, Brother th is a recent recent documentary, it has bought 40 at 40,000 views within one day, even though his challenge is a medium scale channel. Is it brother?
How to choose? Oh, okay, brother Daniel. Yes. What did you do? So his recent documentary, it had 40,000 views within one day, okay.
Okay, although some of his staff are used
After Effects, After Effects, do some of the animations. Right? So if we do if we could make this kind of a group, you know, with various skills coming in, for example, one thing I would like to praise
disabled is like, I would consider him to be the David Attenborough of the bow.
So we have a collaborator and a couple of content creators teaming up together to create content like this, it would be more powerful. Right? Yeah, definitely. I definitely agree that there needs to be more collaborations, right.
A lot of Muslims are doing things separately and alone. And, of course, the more of a unified effort that we could have, the better. But I would say to you, you know, don't underestimate your own ability, you know, like,
I'm posting on YouTube regularly, a person can build a massive channel, you know, if they post regularly and improve as they go along. And, you know, I'm just saying that we do live at a time also where it's actually very possible for individuals to have a huge impact.
But doing something individually, for example, I may be a good 3d artist. Right. But then someone else could be a good speaker, right?
Screenwriter, right. working individually will be as powerful as working as a team. Yeah, I agree. Definitely. Does that look around for highlighting that? I appreciate that. And I just wanted to say salaam to you, I'm going to allow somebody else to have a scene out just like Santa Monica.
Somebody come? Brother. Sorry.
Yes. Where are the where? Where are you based on? What would you like to say?
Yes, I'm here. And I'm in London. Okay. Just want to say that my I agree with the general consensus about the value of this conversation.
So just, even though I do agree with your points about sort of easy to sit on the sidelines,
and criticize, that's sort of what I'm going to do right now.
So there was the the discussion, the point that kept popping up about building bridges, I understand that the implication is not to say that
bridges to be built between truth and falsehood, but it's more about encouraging dialogue.
But I think that that's how it might be interpreted sometimes. And I feel like that, rather says previously about how he felt that he was being too apologetic, I think maybe was a bit too diplomatic, in the sense that there was a point where Peterson was saying some hocus pocus about, you know, different religions could come under one umbrella. And
that could be that could be like a form of worship? And he said, Yes, absolutely. And then moved on to the next point. I feel like maybe there could have been a bit of pushback there, in the sense that it could have said that one umbrella is open to everybody. But ultimately, it's in Islamic umbrella. And there's not a sense of room for compromise.
What I did like about the conversation was that piston didn't come up with the traditional sort of top clutching arguments of, oh, I can't believe you know, what about you know, any flavor? Or what about the marriage to Ayesha or these arguments, these comments? It was just a very skewed sort of high level more sensible conversation.
Does that kind of fair and for your comment? Yeah, I've actually heard. I don't think he was too diplomatic. And I'll tell you why. Because I think a lot of people were scared. He was not going to be diplomatic. Do you know what I mean? Like, you can tell that Mama T jobs default is
quite, you know, assertive, right? Like, his default is to be very, very assertive, actually, from from the limited stuff I've seen of his right.
Especially some of the memes that are going around, right. So I think people were really scared that he was. That's what made people a little bit nervous when they heard that he was going to have a conversation with Peter. So they thought what if he like really kind of gets a bit too aggressive, right or assertive to too much on the other side? So I think at the end today, he was he was showing a lot of restraint on purpose. But anyway, I'm gonna let brother support actually I think
you have to come in. Yeah, let brother suborn make a comment if you don't mind.
Slavic and brothers convertible. But what do you think about the comment that brother just made?
Yeah, I was gonna say I think there's a if you go back to that point, it was
wasn't a it wasn't the idea that one religion should come as one theological, that obviously would be incorrect. Yeah. And why remember it was about
coexisting peace in the world, which is why, you know, you have to remember that Peterson invites you to a job and even the thumbnail and even the trailer, he is looking at Islam from international relations perspective, which is why a lot of the latter conversation was about warfare than HR bought up the idea in the realist theory about state of anarchy, you know, hopes, this idea and the lack of Leviathan and why you have these problems. So that's what the context was, it wasn't actually theologically. Also, I think it's very important.
If you go into a discussion, and you pick up every single point of your opponent, as a point of contention, you will not get the main thing across. And the main thing that
we wanted to get across was the message of Islam. What is still here? What is the core principles of Islam, which is why he just mentioned the entire thing from the Quran, right? Because
you, and also, I think one thing, which is very important is that when we have someone like him,
and he is actually somebody that we can say, is not like Douglas Murray and ion Hersey. He's not an Islamophobe. You have to sort of let a few things slide. Definitely. You agree with them, but you're not engaging with that point that they made, which is battle safe, right? You ignore that and you focus on? Okay, so at this point, I can tell them about Allah's attributes and decide to grant at this point, I can do this, you really have to pick your battles. What happens is you win on tiny victories, rather than actually the main purpose that I just did jump in and just have that point. Yeah, and I do, I do agree with the overarching point that you're making. And I am sort of
nitpicking, but, but just Peterson said something about coming under one umbrella. And that is a form of worship. So maybe, maybe I misinterpreted it. But it sounds like you were making theological propositions. And
that's just the way it seemed to me, okay, just like my hand brother, I don't remember that exact statement being made. Or, you know, maybe I need to go back and listen as well. But from what I understood, look, I think, first of all, where Peterson was coming from was a place of fear, you know, like, like, he, when when somebody fears your religion, right, and fears your way of life,
you want to put them at ease. And so I think the arguments that brother Muhammad was making was to put
non Muslims who believe that it's impossible for non Muslim to live in an Islamic state, for example, right? Or for Islam to ever accommodate anybody of any other religion.
I think he was trying to smash that misconception, you know, I think that was one of it seemed obvious that that was one of his aims. And he was trying to show that there was a superior, a superior civilization, right. That existed that had accommodated people of different backgrounds and allowed them the autonomy to have their own legal systems, etc, etc. Right. So
I think, you know, when you have somebody in front of you, who has that many misconceptions and almost fears, yeah.
Yeah, you're trying to put them at ease. And as brother, it's a boy said, I don't know if you've ever experienced having these types of conversations.
You do feel like picking people up on every little thing, but then you realize that you're going to lose the person if you're, and also you as a human being, sometimes you can't keep up with every little thing that a person says as well. So yeah, I think, you know, let's, let's,
let's cut him some slack there. Because I feel like just
this whole conversation was very much an ad good for all of us. Yeah, just brother, thank you so much.
So yeah, I feel I was actually really happy to hear to hear how restraint brother, Muhammad the job was actually I think a lot of people were surprised with that. Pleasantly surprised. I think he was always like that or able to be like that, you know, it's just that maybe we have we hadn't seen a lot of that you know, ourselves so
because of the types of people who did he'd had to engage with in the past who deserved a bit of a smackdown here and there. Right. So I think with with the Peterson what was nice was at last somebody was having a
Long Form discussion.
Proper discussion actually listening so far lead the way like Peterson was listening. You got to make dua for the guy, you know, he's, he's not the same I hate it when when people are so like, I'm sorry, it's unjust to to keep him in the same category as the far right or the right or
he's he's just not the same as them at all, you know, do you think Douglas Murray would ever, you know, sit with one of us and have an actual decent discussion? No, he just doesn't do his humility that attracts people towards him that he didn't really get with the new atheist crowd.
Definitely. And I think it's because it's one of his principles, isn't it? One of his principles is like, I forgotten the wording Exactly. But it's like something like,
when you speak to speak to someone as if you might learn something from them. Right. Right. Yeah.
So Kamala, like if you do that, it completely changes the way you
engage with human beings. And I believe that insha Allah if, if Professor Peterson is sincere,
because it does always feel like he's, he's looking for something, you know, he's not satisfied. And he's looking for something. And as I said earlier, in this podcast, I personally believe that he does know that Islam is the truth. Personally, I do believe that he he recognizes that, and he's a little bit scared of that, you know, because I, I've got that sense a number of times when he was having a conversation with Akyol. And even with his job, you know, he's like, sometimes it's like really surprised, almost like, oh, like, Muslims believe in that or,
and I think, and that's why he was he kept pressing he job on the, on the issue of the Prophet SAW Salem and the warrior aspect. Because it's almost like, that was the one thing that he
he, for some reason needed to reconcile in his mind, you know,
as if the rest of his time was actually quite, you know, attractive, damn, I think, personally.
So, and also the fact that he's had so many friends who are actual Islamophobes. And still, he's been willing to engage with Muslims. I think it shows that he's, he's actually got his own thing. He's trying to do his own thing. He's not. He's not under their farm. He's not like that, influenced by his mates, you know, like, he's Islamophobic mates.
And I think he's a pragmatist, he knows that there's a billion Muslims in the world, right? Like, if you if you're a businessman, right, I'm just from a really purely business perspective, you'd be foolish to alienate a billion people, you know, like,
he gets it, that Muslims are part of his customer base, and also his audience, so doesn't want to alienate them. And I just thought it was very sincere of him to say, you know, to Muhammad, the job that, you know, is there anything else I need to clear up, you know, with the Muslim community, as if he was giving him the opportunity to say, you know, to put all of our grievances, I guess, against anything that he said in the past, and then to make amends, and I think that's, that really shows a level of soft softness of heart, I would say and
so in sha Allah, may Allah subhanaw taala.
guide him, but also his audience, you know, because I think that's the main thing, you know, those millions of people who maybe for the first time heard from a, an ordinary Muslim, right, who heard and saw an Arab Muslim in a thobe, with a beard, speaking, eloquently reciting Quran and the Quran is a Shiva.
And it reached an even Peterson did notice he even said, when when Muhammad hijab said, you know, we want, we have a prophecy that Islam will enter every home.
And he doesn't mean, he says, yeah, please didn't even said what you mean, like this, right? Like through this podcast, right? So I mean, I don't know. It just feels like he has such an affinity with,
with what we're saying,
on so many levels, I think, even on the question of conquests, he will, even though some might interpret it that way, in the queues, sort of putting yourself on trial for that. He was just examining the morality of it, and trying to understand the argument rather than Yeah.
I think he was trying to use it. Because in the past, he's he's talked about Jesus, and how, you know, Jesus is like the model and
the ideal right. And I think he was trying to understand how was the prophet Muhammad and ideal. Do you see but I feel like he
was trying to reconcile
the prophets of Allah who it was salam with that same kind of level that Jesus has, you know, that same status. And I think I think he's a very sensible person. I've even heard him in the past, I think somebody made an argument or made a point about child marriage.
And I even heard about it shot of the land that right. I'm sure I heard in one of his lectures him saying, Well, you know, that's not really that's neither here nor there. Because in those times, everyone was marrying young, you know, people were marrying girls were married, married off young, very young. So I think as a, as a psychologist and a person who studied his field, he studied, I think he called he said, he always says, you know, from an evolutionary biology, biological perspective, or psychological perspective, I think he's, he doesn't have that many hang ups, like the, you know, that Islamophobes have, you know, because he understands human societies and how
they've evolved over time, right? And how, how things change over time.
Anyway, just like her brother, I'm going to have to kind of wrap up now, thank you so much. It's, it's been so interesting, because some of you, I've seen on my Twitter feed, and some of you, you know, I hope nobody's been offended by anything I've said sometimes I, you know, respond to people and have a little
have a little fun, you know, bit of a back and forth like to give as good as I get sometimes, you know,
so please forgive me for that. May Allah Subhana Allah reward you um, so please, you know, make bar for me in sha Allah next time that maybe you know, we'll do this regularly. Look out for a spaces session. In the future. By the way, just in case you don't know. My name is Fatima Baraka Tila, I'm have a podcast. You can listen to my podcast on Muslim central podcasts. If you look up Fatima barkatullah Muslim Central, and also the M feed podcast, right the M feed podcast is one of the podcasts that I am presenter for, where we interview inspiring Muslims every well regularly. So please look up the old feed podcast on YouTube and also on you know, wherever you get your podcasts,
and also Muslim central podcast, Fatima baraka to Allah and inshallah you can listen in on some other interesting conversations I've had. Just come out here and make, make dua that Allah Subhana Allah spreads the message of Islam, through efforts like those of brother Muhammad hijabs in this podcast, that it reaches the hearts of people that the Quran reaches the hearts of people that Islam enters every home. Make dua, that Allah Subhana Allah allows it to have that reach. And, and that's really why we're happy, right? That's why we're happy about this because it's, it's a win for us as a Muslim community. And as I said, previously, Brother Muhammad the jab is a son of our community,
he's a product of our communities, we should be proud of that. And we should make glad for him and we should support him. May Allah Subhana Allah protect him and allow him to go from strength to strength. And may Allah subhanaw taala allow our children to, you know, become as eloquent as a motivated and as willing and able to share the message of Islam with others and ourselves as well.
Just like Camilla Karen Subhanak Allahu mo behind the shadow alert Illa Lanta, a stone Furukawa to be like, Salam aleikum.
You've been listening to all my talk with Fatima Baraka tila. Please share this episode. Please leave a comment. And let us know what you think about the issues that we've discussed. Just Xochimilco Hiren was salam. Wa alaykum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh