Channel: Adnan Rashid
Topics: Comparative Religion
By looking at the ethnic claims people make over the land of Palestine, Joseph was of the opinion that the Jewish people have a claim over the land of Palestine because they've had an existence in this land for 1000s of years, which everyone accepts. Everyone agrees to that claim. That claim as far as it goes to,
to highlight the point that the Jewish people had been there for a very long time. My contention was in response that that claim does not justify the current atrocities that are taking place on that land. Okay. The atrocities
against against the Palestinians and the Jewish people. I agree. There are Jewish, innocent victims of terrorism. And there are Palestinian victims of terrorism. There are children, women, men, elderly dying on daily basis in Palestine being bombed. Beam being shortened, being completely decimated, okay, I'm saying none of these claims that go back 1000s of years justify
the current occupation, the current brutal occupation
of the land of Palestine, it cannot be just
cuz he thinks I might have wished that be upon them. Salam aleikum. Wa assalamu Aleikum ne refuses
aleikum wa salam, thank you. Thank made peace be upon you. I said in the English language so that people don't misunderstand. Okay, I am saying
no problem is still is still our brother.
He's a bit lost. He's our brother. He's a bit lost. But he's our brother. And our purpose, our purpose. Our purpose is to spread the love, spread education, spread beautiful ideas, so that we can live together in peace. So today we were talking about history. So in during this discussion, when we were talking about the claim of design is all over the land of Palestine. A lot of points were raised by Joseph by myself, we talked about history,
the presence of the Jewish people in that land, and then the absence after the Roman destruction of the city of being filmed.
The destruction of the city of Jerusalem at the hands of Emperor Hadrian, Hadrian in 132, and renaming of the city all of that we discussed. Now we're coming to the point where I made a claim that the Jewish people were protected by Muslims and the Muslim civilization for over 1000 years. Right. And Joseph came back and he said, No, I don't agree with that, actually, that claim is problematic. And then I said, Now we are talking, right? Because this is this is get a camera. Yes. Because I said that get a camera so that we can get this on camera, where a Jew and a Muslim can talk about the the treatment of the Jewish people at the hands of the Muslims throughout the history
of Muslim civilization. This is a very, very interesting discussion which I want to get into.
No, no, because me and Jordan were talking you can
ask questions. So Joseph, why do you Why do you actually disagree with that claim? My claim is that the Jewish golden age was when the Muslims protected the Jews for over 1000 years.
Please, so one of the things that people that either Muslim apologists propagating Dawa, do, they will take a point in history. And they'll say it was great at this time. Therefore, throughout history, the Muslims were good to the Jews. And that's simply not true. There were Muslims that oppressed Muslims throughout history. So of course, there were Muslims that oppressed you. So I'll give you an example. In Morocco, you had a caliphate called the almohads. And they said to the Jewish people that were living there, and either you convert to Islam, which is against Islam, you're going to tell me the context that it doesn't say that, but either either convert to Islam, or
we kill you. So Jews fled on masks from Morocco. And they went, they went to Egypt, they went to various places, usually under other Muslim Caliphate that were more favorable to the Jews. And so
first and foremost, that has never been just a consistent period, throughout time for all Muslim Caliphate, empires, where the Jews had it good. The second aspect of that is, even when times were great for Jews and the Muslim Caliphate, it was more than ever, it was great. It was right. That's what I'm trying to get through. It was relative, and they were still secondary.
citizens, they still had a different tax system, they still weren't allowed to achieve certain positions within that Islamic Society, they had greater freedoms and opportunities than in Christendom. But that's not necessarily a good thing. Because in Christendom again, some Christian nations will go to the Jews, others were terrible to the Jews. And so it just depended at which point of history and which rulers you're talking. So categorically, you are wrong. If you said that Muslims were always good to the Jews, they weren't Second.
Okay, so what did I say? Always? You said that the Jews, okay, what was your state? I said, the Muslim civilization, treated the Jews with utmost respect. And I just gave you examples. Okay, when I made a general claim, which is based upon the general history of the Muslim civilization. Now, if you show me exceptions to that general rule, I will acknowledge the exceptions, but the exceptions do not represent the general behavior of the Muslim civilization, which, which, which goes with goes across over 1000 years. Okay, so let's, let's look at your examples again.
You You raised some very interesting examples. And this is why I believe someone as intelligent as as you become
better, because you are a well read Jewish
gentleman, and I can see you are, I can see you are religiously observant, the mics are growing.
You check that one.
Okay, so, so the point I want to pick on is what I'll do in the Arabic language, or almohads. In the England English language did to the Jewish people. Before I get to that example, my contention is, why would you use for example, ISIS, for example, ISIS, as a representative example, for Islam? Okay. Only two kinds of people do that to two Muslims today, right? One who are completely ignorant of the history of Muslim civilization, two, who hate Islam, who completely hate Islam and want to deliberately tarnish the name of Islam and Muslims. There is no third option in my mind. So I will assume the better the assumed, assume the best thing for you that you are ignorant about the history
of Muslim civilization. I won't assume the latter for you, right. I don't think you are a Muslim or Muslim hater. I don't think so. I hope you're not okay. I'm not a Muslim hater. I have used the great
say, Muslims is my person. And I believe that we should, we should work towards building a lasting peace. I agree with that truth and reconciliation, I believe for us to make peace. Neither you nor I should deny the reality of what's happened. Absolutely. And I will say that we've been Muslim leaders who've done incredible acts of kindness for the Jewish people. However, now we're talking even amongst the most those that are considered the greatest. So let me give some examples. No, no, no, I want to talk about almost because you made a point. And it's only fair that I respond to that point. So I'll move on. We're an extremist group that came to power in Morocco, in the 12th century.
And Muslims suffered at the hands before anyone else did. And in fact, when they did persecute Muslims, Christians, as well as Jews, who protected the Jews, who gave refuge to the Jews, Muslims elsewhere. Let me give you an example, a specific example, who is known as the second Moses in Jewish history.
My monitor is my monitor is faced the almohads firsthand. My mother was alive, born in Cordova, raised in Cordova, wrote in the Arabic language, his famous book, a guide for the perplexed was written in the Arabic language in Hebrew characters. He was a scholar of Judaism, who is known as the second Moses in Jewish history, it was so important that he was given this title. And he wrote Jewish commentaries on the Torah, and he flourished in a Muslim society now almost came on the scene, and they forced him to accept Islam which we wholeheartedly condemn. Muslims are condemning that how do we know that my monitor is having pretended to accept Islam moved to Egypt. Now when he
went to Egypt, he went back to Judaism. And then there, the judges put him on trial for apostatized from Islam, what happened? He goes to court and who testifies who testifies in his favor a Jewish scholar from Spain.
Who was being persecuted by Alma hertz?
Who were an extremist group, which other Muslims were condemning at that time, like we do today with ISIS, right? He moved to Egypt, their Muslims came to rescue him and they said his conversion was forced. Therefore, it was not a convergent, that rule does not apply on him. And he was let he was left alone. And he became what he became a physician directly to the brother of the photon. The photons brother was molecule after the brother of photons alladhina Ub Saladin. Okay, so he was protected by the Muslims against a persecution by the Muslims. Okay, so this is very clear, this is the example you gave, didn't actually help your case. Second example, very quickly you made was that
when the Jews did have good times with the Muslims? That was relative? Okay. It depends. They were still second class citizens. I want to correct you there. I want to assume the best about you again, that you are completely ignorant of what happened in Spain time Can I know because you raised two points, let me quickly respond to it. And you can come back to it. Okay. Either respond to Joseph by giving him a number of examples. This claim, again, is completely misplaced. doesn't acknowledge history of Islam and Muslims with the Jewish people. There were Jewish prime ministers in Spain. Is everyone listening to me? Hello? Yes, there are Jewish prime ministers in Spain. How do you make
someone who is a second class citizen, a prime minister, is a question. I knew who am I talking about? How's that even Chopra? He was the prime minister to the most powerful Muslim monarch in the history of Western Europe.
On the third in the 10th century house, buy a bunch of food was so powerful that he was writing letters to the ancestors of Joseph, who were in khazaria. Joseph is an Ashkenazi Jew. Okay? His ancestors come from khazaria.
Okay, this is something we can come back. That's not anti semitism, by the way. I mean, the Jewish human Ashkenazi, Ashkenazi Jews from the Middle East, I've got Middle East and DNA, I can show you what the How is that anti semitism to say that it is denying the Jewish Agency of the Jews. So it's a myth. It's propagated predominantly by anti Semites that Ashkenazi Jews are not real Jews.
It is an academic opinion. You can disagree with it. You can say it's rubbish.
Yeah. So I mean, I'm not saying the opinion is true or not, or we can talk about it another time. But I'm just presenting the opinion, it may well be very unpleasant, but to call it anti semitism. I don't okay. I don't agree with that. But anyway, so So how have they been Shapiro was writing letters to the king of khazaria. This was a group of people in, you know, near Georgia County, Georgia, who had come to Judaism, who had embraced Judaism, and the entire state became Jewish. After the king himself, the king had accepted you that embraced Judaism. His name was king Joseph. So how the image approach was writing letters to him, he was writing letters to the Jewish people
about DOD, whether they need anything from him, he's in a power position. Likewise, there was another Prime Minister called Samuel Hi, nugget seminar nugget was the prime minister in Granada, which was also Muslim state. And I can give you a list of Jewish scholars, dignitaries, ministers, poets, philosophers, theologians, who were flourishing under the rule of Islam in Spain, and North Africa, in a ubit
ayyubid, Middle East, and as far as Mughal India, as far as Mughal India. So what are we talking about here? So the Jewish condition was very much present. And if you come back with more claims, and I will respond to them accordingly. Go ahead. So
look at this, this is this is how it works. You get your soundbite, then the camera disappears. Okay.
Mike, Mike is still with me. I don't know where he's going. Or maybe he's changing his position. Yeah, yeah. And so you mentioned a few things. And the first one I want to talk to you is with perfect. You mentioned my manatees haram bombs, or the mics go away. We've lost the last the crowds are YouTube. So two cameras,
two cameras, so don't be disappointed. So you mentioned that after fleeing the almohads, my monitors went to Egypt.
lifted, which I think is near Cairo today. And now he lived there. And as a myth is propagated by many, many Muslims that he had a great existence. He loved living there. It was
Why is that a myth? Because I'm gonna read you his own words that he wrote there while he was living, okay. So this is from something and people can google it totally get it, which is a pistol to Yemeni Jews to the Yemeni Jews, okay. It is highly doubted by the way actually the letter the content of the letter is myth, it is not, it is not it is not confirmed, whether this letter can be traced back to my monitors, we will we will discuss that, we'll come back to that. So, so, before you use the source against me, please ensure that the source is actually authentic. What we do know, okay, what are your sources for your sources?
What was your sources of all the Jewish writings as well as Muslim writings, Jewish as well as Muslim writing Jewish writings with Jewish writing Which ones? I have read a book titled The history of the Sephardic Jewry. Let me give an the author's name is Zion Zohan Jewish author, who has written the history of the Sephardic and Mizrahi Jewry. The name of the book is the history of the Sephardic and Mizrahi during Zion. zahar is the author than Bernard Lewis, also a Jewish historian, right? So any sources of the Jews? Mainly, they are Jewish sources, Jewish historian.
I'm actually bringing something which Jews University accept as being authentic. You've read two books by contemporary
very few religious Jews that doubt the authenticity of the agora, you're saying otherwise? And that's fine, because you've read a book. And that's fine. I read a couple of books or a few books, but I'm gonna read what my mind is actually says in his words, okay, now you can cast doubt on that just I don't know, my monitor is actually said that we don't know. When there's a doubt. What's the point of reading something if I say Prophet Muhammad said x, y, and Zed and if we cannot prove whether he said it or not, is casting doubt is you? Which who says, Okay, can you can you can you give us the source as I just gave you? It's, it's accepted University has been written by minorities
who are saying, I'm saying, What's your evidence that it isn't? Who says it isn't? scholars, scholars, historians, which historian Okay, this is something I've been okay. You can come No, no, no, no.
I will come back to you on this, because I just, I didn't, I didn't.
I didn't come prepared for this discussion.
There are references I have. Okay, if you raise a specific question, we can come back to it. One thing I want to point out, you spoke for 15 minutes, 10 minutes. I didn't say a word. Okay. So I spoke but the minute the minute I spoke, you started challenging saying that's not real. That's
one of these actually says in his words. Now, this is half well into it. But effectively what's happening there was Jews in Yemen, who were considering converting to Islam. And he wrote a letter to the the leader of that community. And this is effectively what he wrote. This is well into it. Remember, my co religionists that on account of the vast number of our sins, God has held us into the midst of this PayPal, the Arabs, who have persecuted us severely. So my monitor is who is your example of someone who carry on? Carry on reading? Yeah, please, I want you to read this now. This is actually helping me by the way, we'll see how and past beautiful and discriminations find this
discriminatory legislation against us, as scripture has forewarned those our enemies themselves so shall judges never did and they may never did a nation molest, degrade the base and haters as much as they therefore, when David of blessed memory, inspired by the Holy Spirit, envisage the future to be tribulations of Israel, it'd be wailed and lamented their loss only in the kingdom of Ishmael and prays in their behalf and, and on and on it goes but
I want you to continue reading a bit more few more lines continue what you're expected to say continue.
Now, why are you reading before you even keep reading keep reading keep reading.
No, no, no start from where you stopped stop
looking devotional and prayed in their behalf for the deliverance as is implied in the verse whoa me but I sojourn with missionaries that I dwell beside the tense of note the distinction between Canada and the children of Israel for the the carry on carry on is actually helping me carry on carry on this is going to get carry on please do this. You brought this up I didn't bring up but I'm sure gonna have the lineage and children of Canada, as they readily admit Yes. Daniel alludes only to our
humiliation and degradation. Like just in the threshing suffered at the hands of the Arabs, may they speedily be vanquished when he says, and some of the hosts of the stars it comes down to the ground and trampled upon them. Although we dishonored by them beyond human endurance, and had to put up with their fabrications, yet we behave like him, who is the pictures by
inspired writer, but I am as a deaf man, I hear not and I am
sorry, I am a stone, I am as a dumb man that opened up his mouth. Similarly, our sages instructed us to bear the provocations and preposterous in this of Ishmael in silence, so on and on and on.
For the audience.
You spoke, I speak, the basic premise after you made me read all that really apologize. But the basic premise is
said that the almohads were part I accept that my monitor is, is my proof that the Muslims treat the Jews well, because my monitor is when he fled the almohads. He had a Muslim testify for him in court, which is true.
And he achieved great position of prominence in Islamic Society is true. He was the physician to even to South Athena, I believe, by the end of his career, but even my monitor is someone who we look at as an example of somebody who existing at a high level in Islamic Society, when he's writing to his own people. He's honest. And he says that the the Muslims have inflicted persecution upon us. They have suffered greatly. His words are no nation has persecuted as more than this nation. Okay. So this is clearly clearly an even let you put forward the arguments being fake. The fact that this has been universally accepted by Jews as being part of the narrative suggests there must be a
remnant of truth in there that there was persecution of Jews in Muslim society. Now let's get on to what is that persecute? Okay. Can you make two points? Yeah, I made two points on you make sure.
Now, you said and maybe this is why we can make it a little more engaging, because the big long speeches don't really help NGOs engage viewers, I agree. So I'm going to say I can give categoric examples of where I'm persecuted against, in a caliphate that's run according to Sharia, according to the Sunnah of Muhammad. And my best example is example zakat. Zakat is fixed, yet there is a fixed amount of money that the Muslims pay jizya is not fixed, this year is dependent upon whatever the color decides that the Jew is going to pay, or the person of the book is going to pay. Now, under some Caliphate, that was a reasonable amount, and it just say that the poor don't have to pay
the jizya. But if they're not poor, then it's down to the the color that determine what the Jews pay what the Christians pay. And that is separate from what the Muslims pay. And it can be a lot more. And it can be less, it really depends on the caliber. And so when you segregate a society, and you say Muslims pay this tax, and non Muslims pay another tax, that, ultimately is an example of discrimination that has been abused throughout history. Okay. Great points. Now coming back to the letter of my monitors. First of all, we need to show whether the letter is actually authentic, even if it is authentic. Let's assume for for the sake of the argument, my monitor is actually wrote that
letter, there is no problem in it. I'll tell you why. My monitor is has been severely persecuted by a Muslim group called Alma. Alma hidden, right, if a person who was tortured or persecuted by ISIS today, and was to write a letter about Muslims, I wouldn't blame him. I wouldn't blame him for assuming that I am being persecuted by Muslims, because these people have the appearance of Muslims, unfortunately, right. Now, my monitor is the question is when he wrote this letter, where was he writing this letter from Egypt, Egypt, okay. Now, what period of his Egyptian
existence was this? Was it was this the early period when he had originally come from Spain, having been persecuted and put through all that? Or was it actually after he had become the physician to the full pan himself? Okay. If my monitor is writing, my monitor is is writing this letter after he's a physician to this whole Pon? The doctors, the salon, then there are two options, either he is lying about his condition, because how can you be the physician to the salon, the doctor to the pond, to the king himself, and say, our condition is very bad, and it is very possible that he was lying. Why? Because why is he writing this letter? And who is he writing this letter to? According
to what Joseph read, this letter was being written to
A Jewish group of people in Yemen, who were considering accepting Islam, who were contemplating becoming Muslims, and his job as Rambam, or the second Moses, or the shepherd of the flock,
you know, if you like, his job was to sway them, to put them off, to push them away from Islam. And to say those things it does exactly that. These people are barbaric, barbarians, they persecute us, we're not happy with them.
Don't accept Islam, therefore. So all these things put together, one can easily contextualize the letter. But looking at the bigger picture. Now, it is very clear that Joseph accepted and my monitor is definitely had a high position in Muslim societies. If the Jews were persecuted as he claimed earlier, why would a Jew be a physician to the full Pan? Why would a Jewish person be given that position and such a sensitive position? Who is a physician, someone is checking your pulse, someone is prescribing medicine for you even possibly giving you medicine, he can easily poison the photon and kill him. Why would the photon trust a Jewish man, and not only any ordinary Jewish man, or
Rabbi of that repute, or Rabbi of that status, someone who is known as the second Moses among the Jews later on, actually, so let's not be anachronistic about history. So it is very clear that he had a high position. Now it doesn't stop there. We can look at other Jewish testimonies from Spain.
Yeah, let me finish this. Very quickly. There was a Jewish rabbi called by Irving pakusa. Have you heard of him?
I've been Fukuda writing in code about 1080s. He writes that our living condition is not the same as the Muslims, it is better than theirs. We are more prosperous than the Muslims are under the rule of the Arabs. There you go. That's one testimony. Let's, let's fast forward during that, okay. Yeah, let's fast forward. Okay. We have for example, in the ninth century, okay, there is an anonymous Jewish source, a commentary on the Torah. Okay. It's called petrosa fronde petrosa. from Karen Armstrong, she refers to this book in her history of Jerusalem. And she states that this anonymous author Jewish author wrote about the conditions of the Jewish people in Jerusalem in the ninth
century, during the basket period.
He states that we have been honored by the ishmaelites that we worship together the same God in this holy place. In other words, he was praising the condition of the Jewish people under Islamic domain. Then we have other testimonies from I'm giving you different dynasties very quickly, because time is running out. And Joseph needs to talk about this yet. And I have written an article on this, by the way, this is why I know these sources Yeah.
Then we move forward to the Ottoman period when Jerusalem was governed by the Ottomans, to be very precise, during the reign of Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent who governed from 1520 to 1566. If I'm not mistaken, right, he governed 46 years. During his reign, the Jewish people flourished in Jerusalem. How do we know this? A scholar named Amnon Cohen, Amnon Cohen, who published his book in 1994. And the book is titled A world from within the court records from the Islamic court of Jerusalem. In this in these two volumes. He discusses the history of the Jewish cases. Are you listening everyone Jewish cases filed within the Islamic court of Jerusalem? So he studied cases
from the year 1500 to 15 7070 years of cases he studied. He came up with 1000 Jewish cases filed in the Sharia court, filed by the Jewish people voluntarily and Amnon Cohen, being a Jewish scholar from Israel. He was he wanted to know why the Jews were doing that. Why were they going to the Sharia court, even though they had the best dens they had their own Jewish courts in Jerusalem, but he states this is a Jewish Israeli scholar in 1994. He states based upon his study, this was because the Jews expected justice to come quicker from the Sharia court than they own courts. And cases vary from
from, for example, from a case about nakaba we call you know provisions if a wife has been divorced and she needs provisions from the husband and
There are other domestic cases being discussed in these courts. So his conclusion is that the Jews of Jerusalem in the 16th century were more prosperous than the Muslims were perfect. Okay, wait a minute. Okay, wait, wait wait wait, of course of course of course Joseph.
I'm finishing to finish because this topic is so important.
Okay, so this is these examples from different dynasties in different periods different places show you what general pattern of Muslim behavior was kind, generous, and, and harmonious towards the Jews, right? The Jewish people flourished in different ways. I can give you example.
I was very patient listening to you be patient with me as well. I know some of this information is is difficult to to fathom.
I'm giving references Wrong. Wrong, right. And most references are gave are from Jewish sources. By the way, even Bernard Lewis, someone like Bernard Lewis, a staunch Zionist, who advise the US government to attack iraq in 2003, even him in his book, Jews of Islam acknowledges that the Muslims treated the Jews with generosity in comparison to what was happening to them in Christian Europe. Okay, so and over 1000 years, Bernard Lewis states for over 1000 years, Jews survived extinction due to Muslim protection for over 1000 years. And he also states 90% of the Jewish population of the world survived destruction under the protection of Islam and Muslims. Bernard Lewis, again, my
references are very clear, go and check and come back to me if I'm lying, okay. Okay. Now, next point is a cart. Can we come back to
you guys, please be patient with me. I'm finishing very soon and you can come back. I will listen to you patiently. No, you can't come in because it's brilliant Joseph. Okay. So the cart issue. Now Joseph made a claim that the cart is fixed and GCR is not fixed. Actually, that's not true as well. Because in our earliest sources, we are told Firstly, the primary rules to deal with the non Muslims. What is the primary rule? In Buhari
in Buhari, we have a statement from the second Caliph of Islam, Omar bin Kitab Amaro the second Caliph of Islam. And what did the Prophet say about him on a commission that he was gonna kill Hola, aerocity. Romani midbody upon you is my way in the way of my rightly guided caliphs. Who were they Omar was one of them. So we have to follow him Omar upon his deathbed, when his stomach was split, open, dying man, he advised, he advised for his successor. He stated, whoever succeeds me, beware of the rights of the non Muslims, do not overburden them, do not put a burden upon them more than they can be Amr the second Caliph of Islam. The words of a dying man, right? These words were directly
relevant to the Jewish people. Okay, because who was he talking about? He was talking about the Jews and the Christians. Okay, so what is Judea? jizya is one gold coin per year. It is clearly stated in football bulletin among Bula alarm among Bulava. His book football boil down the conquest of lands. In that book, there are documents that clearly state that the jizya is one gold coin every year, which is four grams of gold in current value 200 pounds a year. So if there is a millionaire Jewish merchant, who has a million pounds in his bank account, in theory, theoretically, according to the Islamic sources, he has to pay 200 pounds every year, if a Muslim has a million pound in his bank
account, he must pay 2.5% which is 25,000 pounds. Where is justice in that I as a Muslim can stand up and say, you know what Islam is actually not just to Muslim people. Islam is more just to the Jewish people. The ie the Jewish merchant has to pay 200 pounds every year, even though he may have a million pounds in his bank account. But me I have to give 25 25,000 pounds over or for a million pounds. Now this is theoretically the earliest Islamic sources. What happened later on? No doubt. sources are abused. They were misused. Even today, groups like ISIS and other extremist entities are using sources to abuse that the Jewish people are doing it is the state of Israel is abusing
misusing the Jewish sources. So we have extremists. We have unpleasant characters we have we have people who abuse our sources through our history, Jews or Jews did it Muslims did it Christians did it. So the good thing about us, me and Joseph is that we are brother brothers in that
thought Why? Because he also believes that the extremist Jews who do extreme things and abuse the sources, I also believe that there are Muslims who extremist Muslims who abuse the sources. Now, over to you, sorry, okay, you do apologize.
I was supposed to be a quickfire round. But
it's fine. It's your turn to respond. And that's why I want to point out was what just happened then? So we went to the Alamo Heights, and we agreed on the Alamo Heights, they're not good Muslims. We then you bought approve, which was my quantities. And we then established that actually, your understanding of my monitors maybe isn't the Jewish understanding of minorities, and the Jewish understanding of minorities is that he was persecuted under Islam. You then went through some very,
a lot of material I haven't heard of. So you mentioned Petrus F. Ron has never heard of it in my life. So we know talking very fringe sources, which most Jews are not familiar with. So I will go away and read it. Louis, Bernard lewis is a historian. He's got nothing to do with the actual story. I'm talking about the source material, I'm talking about the source material.
And then you mentioned and you went, you went to the 16th century, Ottomans in Israel. Now, I would encourage anybody to type into Google 1517 massacre of Jews in Hebron, the Jews were massacred by Ottomans, in Hebron in Israel. And so again, at a time when you've given as Jews having a good stray dog massacre, and at a time when Jews were supposed to not being persecuted, there's a clear evidence, not just persecution, but a massacre taking place in the very land, you said it was supposed to be amazing. Now I'm not you've said a lot of truth. There were Jews that did achieve great positions, including my monitors in Islamic Society. But achieving a high position in some
Islamic societies does not mean that Jews have been treated well, throughout Islamic history, history, Jewish, the Jewish understanding, if you speak to any of the Jews from the Middle East, almost all of them will universally tell you that they suffered in modern history, and in ancient history. And so I believe Jews and Muslims can and will coexist. I think we have more in common than that divides us. And I think we do have a rich history of coexistence. But I think there needs to be a recognition for many Muslims, that history isn't, as they see it through these rose tinted glasses, but their ancestors have inflicted pain upon my ancestors. And
you can go right the way back to Muhammad, you can go back to the Battle of the trenches, you can go back to the beheading of Jews, you can go from the very, very beginning there has been persecution now you can justify that and say they were treacherous. they betrayed Mohammed therefore, but to this day, you're doing it for me, but to this day, to this day, because of a battle that took place. Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years ago, I a Jew are not allowed to step foot in Mecca, Medina, I am not allowed to live in Arabia. Omar, who's quoted often has been one of the best candidates for the Jewish people. Omar kick the Jews out of Arabia, it was Omar that pushed down
yeah, she sent them to Hebron in Israel. And he said this, that I forgot that it was terrible with Middle East and geography someday.
I'm not getting people can look up, you know, you're making a lot of points. And it took me a long time to respond to all of them. So if you don't want a long response, keep it short. And I'll keep it short. Okay. Yeah. Because you're throwing Omar you're throwing Jews in. So
a lot of things that all I'm doing is saying, and it's a very simple statement, that anybody who believes that the Jewish existence under Islam was consistently good, is consistently stupid. There has been good times and bad times. They've been good Muslims and bad Muslims, good Jews and bad Jews. And now to bring it back to the jizya. You said, No, no, no, no, you didn't let me do this. No, no, no, no, you're done. But my response is gonna be to try that I'm trying to keep mine as brief as possible because for the sake of the engagement of the audience, okay. I am not gonna go along extensively to talk about all the things I mentioned all the all the sources again, what's
your response to the I'm going? To be honest, I would have to go away and read this. I know the people I know my monitor as well. If what I'm saying is true. You will, you're gonna you're gonna come back and confirm everything. Okay, good. Absolutely. But like, you mentioned one source. I don't think any dinos heard of petrosa fraud.
I got the source from Karen Armstrong not Jewish though. So
that means she's
actually taught at a rebennack school. By the way, though, I don't know if you know this. Karen Armstrong was teaching at a robotics school, I believe, quite well. Chen desegregate public school. Yeah. That she was teaching at
rabbinic school. As you guys were bidding school
Israel, Jerusalem, the history of Jerusalem. That's where I got the source petrosa from from which he quoted in her book. So it is very clear. I mean, every single thing i'm quoting please do ask me if you want to know. So
you mentioned that the the GCF is one gold coin. That was your words, not mine. So I'm gonna read you one of the Hadeeth and you can tell me if this is correct. So this is
what are you reading it from? Firstly, so let me tell you the website, one of the websites, or whatever, I know.
I put together a spreadsheet. Okay, so I'll tell you what it is and I'll tell you which book it is.
Okay, book 17 had the 44 Zakat books 17 3044. Okay. Okay. So either way matar is not all authentic. Okay, that's fine. Okay. But this is what he says. You're, you're related to me from Mali, from nafi from Islam, the more than one molar of Omar Ibn Al Khattab that Omar ibn of Qatar imposed a jizya tax?
Is it going to be a gold coin? Or is it going to be something else okay for dinars, on those living where gold was the currency, and 40 theorems on those living and receive them as guests for three days. Now, first and foremost, all I'm doing here is stating that it wasn't one gold coin and if you read this various hotties to talk about this, it literally depends where they live again, they put conditions so if you're traveling through a land, you're taxed at a different rate as if you live in that land. And so
the belief that Jews pay a fixed gold coin is wrong.
According according to water, I then also want to read Why did you pay the jizya? What does the Quran say? And how is that explained by the Hadith? So the Koran and forgive me I'm not
Beware of the fact Yeah, so very low. Ron says soggy rune. Yeah. Is that right? So you don't have a pronounced it right.
Now, could you just give me the literal translation of saggy, doing subdued, subdued, so that the people of the book will pay the Jews yet to be subdued? So if you're subduing somebody, that's not a positive thing. Imagine if the British government today said that the non Muslims, they're going to pay 20% tax because we need the state needs to function we need to feed the poor, we need.
Muslims, we can charge them a separate tax so that they can be subdued. Imagine Theresa May gets up in Parliament, it says the Muslims are going to pay a tax so they can be subdued.
Now, are you done? Nearly
anybody that tells you that jizya is a good thing? Is Mr. White is a good thing? Is it me my brother? And then we pay the same tax? Muslim? Do we are the same under the eyes of the law. Even if I don't have a tax? We just need more. We just
lost my train of thought now. So the eyes of the law, we should be seen as the same. There shouldn't be a tax to subdue me. There shouldn't be a Jew tax to subdue the Jew. There should be an equal tax, it should be proportional to our income. Not our religion. Okay. Very, very good. Joseph. I'll try to make it as quick as possible. Right. Firstly, coming to the pogroms against the Jewish people he mentions 1517. I am perfectly willing to accept that it may have happened although I have to go and check the the circumstances around that. I'll give you other examples. I'll help Joseph in his case, that there were definitely pogroms and massacres of the Jewish people throughout
the vast, you know, period of Muslim history. And one in his was one what happened in 1066. In in, in Granada, in Spain, right? What happened possibly in 1517, what he's talking about today, there might be five or six or seven more examples. But if you look at these 567 more examples, which may have some context to them, we don't know the context, who did it. Why did they do it? They may be extremist, they may be some crazy notice. But because one of the prime minister Samuel hanaki was actually killed during this program I'm talking about he was the Prime Minister, and he was killed in 1066. in Grenada. So it is very possible that these things happen. But the point I'm making is
that the general pattern
of Muslim behavior towards the Jewish people was kind, generous to an extent that way Jewish people themselves are paying tribute to the Muslim treatment. I gave plenty of references earlier, where the Jewish people are praising for example,
Another example Salonika, Salonika was an important Jewish Center, where the Jews flourished under the Ottoman rule. Why did the Jews come to Salonika is the question Where did they come from, you know, when the Catholic Monarchs remember
the last stronghold from the Muslims in Spain, Grenada in 1492. Then followed a heavy persecution of the Jews as well as the Muslims. The Inquisition came in. And where did these persecuted Jews go? They found refuge with the Ottomans in Salonika, and the Jewish people paid lavish tribute to the Ottomans for protecting them. Many Jewish people went to Jerusalem. I gave the sources Amnon Cohan read his book published in 1994. The book is titled A world from within Amnon a. m. and o. n. Cohan co H e. n 1994. And read his conclusion about the Jewish treatment at the hands of the Ottomans. So the history of Islam and Muslims when it comes to the treatment of the Jewish people is so
magnificent, despite all the unpleasant incidents that Joseph is referring to.
I hope Joseph is not trying to brush aside all our positive contribution towards towards the well being of the Jewish people consistently, I said, I've been Muslims that have treated us very well and Muslims who forget us badly. That's why I'm claiming I'm claiming the overwhelming
evidence, evidence of the the treatment towards the Jewish people is positive. So why
now? Okay, well, well, that's a good question. Now, why would Joseph or other Jewish researchers,
why would they put doubt on Muslim treatment of the Jewish people? Why would they even challenge it? having known that the Jewish people generally flourished under the protection of Islam, to an extent that people are born into a scholars like Bernard Lewis, who was openly hostile to Islam and Muslims, okay, He even wrote the book what what went wrong with the Arabs? Okay. He acknowledged that for over 1000 years, 10 centuries, the Jewish people flourished under the protection of Islam 90% of the Jewish population of the world 90% survived extinction and destruction, because the Muslims protecting the planet too. It's not me, Bernard Lewis, a Jewish Zionist historian who died
recently. So why would he say this? This is my claim. My claim is the general treatment towards the Jewish people had been kind. It was amazing. It was beautiful. The Jewish people flourished. They had businesses they had, you know, there were huge merchants. There were scholars of appoints Judah levy was born. Judah. Har levy was a Spanish poet who wrote poetry. The Jewish golden age was in Spain. And who says so, scholars like Heinrich Grice, who was a German historian, Jewish historian, he states that, that for three centuries from the 10th to the 13th century, this was the Jewish golden age in London was in Spain, under the protection of Islam. So all of these things put
together, it is clear that Joseph is repeatedly referring to two exceptions where Jewish people were killed, they were pogroms, there were some massacres, no doubt. Okay, why they happened? What caused them is a very good question we can look into, but you cannot look at those examples and says this is exactly what happened, which you have acknowledged, clearly, you have acknowledged that there are good periods. My claim is the good period, overwhelmingly outweighs the bad period. This is my point. So very quickly, we move on to the Golden Age he's carrying on is the golden age for Judaism wasn't a landless Muslims often say that the golden age for Moses, you can make the name the
Talmudic period. The Talmud is our great, you can make that point when it's your turn. Okay, let me continue with what I'm what I'm saying. So coming back to JIRA issue, yeah. Joseph, very intelligently. Okay, did an academic thing which which I highly respect, I respect this academic attitude towards our sources. I gave a source and I claimed that there is one golden are the Jewish people do you mind if we move back from the noise? The move this way, please bring the camera forward. So that we are we can I don't have to shout. I don't want to shout. Okay. Very good. Thank you. Joseph did the right thing by bringing a source from the Muslim
Hadith literature, where it is stated that they pay for dinars? First of all, I am not too sure about the authenticity of that particular report, but let's assume it's authentic. Let's assume it is authentic. It still helps me
point it still has no point. Firstly, I gave a very powerful source on Bokhari where almost said My advice to my successors is do not overburden the non Muslims do not overburden them. This is our general pattern, this is what we follow. This is our ideal. Okay. Now, Joseph said for dinars, not one, how much is more than ours? Okay, multiply by, let's say 200 pounds multiplied by four, how much is that? 800 pounds. If even then, even then you know what I pay? You know what I paid in Britain, you know how much my contract taxes, anyone, anyone?
over 1000 pounds, I'm paying over 1000 pounds in council tax, then I'm paying fuel tax when I put petrol and 90% is tax, then I'm paying tax on income tax, income tax VAT, value added tax tax, even for [???]ting. I'm sorry. Okay, even when you go to the toilet, you sit in the toilet, you have to pay tax for that. And this is like I'm using this as a red.
This is rhetoric. By the way, this is not literally true. So I'm thinking you pay taxes when you live in a state for the well being of the state to run the state you pay taxes. But even if we were to accept what Joseph said, For dinars, I would say that's fair. If you have a million pounds in your bank account, and you're paying 800 pounds every year, right? That's fear. What is a Muslim paying is the question is that justice? A Muslim would be paying 2.5% of his wealth, whether it's a million pounds, or whether it's 100 million pounds. This is why people say if the Saudis alone, Saudis alone, were to pay 2.5% of their wealth, they would be no poverty on the planet.
Unfortunately, it's not happening, there would be no poverty. This is how beautiful Islam so Zakat is a beautiful thing. It is more than what the Jews and the Christians have to pay. This is very, very clear in Jewish sources for Muslim sources, and you're confirming that. So these are my responses to your point. Go ahead.
As I mentioned, oh bonacasa what happened to Bucharest? Again, these are some examples in our history. Banu coryza was a sub tribe
which consisted of 600 men, okay, and women and children. But there were other Jewish tribes that were in Medina. And Joseph confirmed that amazingly, how do we know that? Joseph said that Omar relocated? The Jewish people were were Hebron, Hebron right? So my question is, if Mohammed Salah Salaam was after Jewish blood, he was bloodthirsty, he wanted the Jewish people to be extinct. Where did these Jewish tribes come from for Omar to relocate? The point I'm making is the Jewish tribes were there. Even after Prophet Muhammad died, he was the sole ruler of Arabia. If he perceived this anti Jewish policy, the Jewish, the Jewish people vulnerable, they were very, very weak. Muslims had
become an empire. Muslims are the most powerful political entity for the next 1000 years. And the Jewish people survived because of the Muslim policy towards them. The Jewish people were a minority and extreme or minority. Okay, when I say extreme minority, I mean in terms of number not an extremist minority, okay. Okay. In terms of numbers, the Muslims, there just had to blow.
And the Jewish population would have been over, it would have been Muslim protected the Jewish people, as the brothers as the cousins, right. And this is why the Jewish people survived today. This is why they're still there. Because of the Muslim protection. Again, to emphasize Bernard Lewis made disclaim, you need to go and kick his grave now. So I'm gonna have to hurry because my wife's texting me telling me I need to get home and eat my dinner. But the main point I'd like to make is to come first and foremost, back to the main point that you didn't address. And it's very, very good to get into these debates where we bring various different examples, but my fundamental point I'm
making is the reason so the reason that a Muslim pays the Zakat is to purify himself purifies worth not himself, so I'll be the Avi you can you can tell me what this means is the purification of the wealth, the wealth, okay?
So, this is because there's a cat and I'm reading for, again, for family. And this is because the Zakat is imposed on the Muslims to purify them, so you're saying their wealth, the
cost we know as Muslims is for the purification of the wealth, okay, fine. Which,
which means with the purification and the self as well I accept that. It's the most
Limbo to read Jewish sources, not speaking the language, relying on translations and using their own cognitive abilities to work out what it means they may arrive at the wrong conclusion. So I may be doing what I do in this reading what it says okay?
So, let me go back to her. This is because the Zakat is imposed on the Muslims to purify them, and to be given back to their poor, therefore the Muslim poor, whereas jizya is imposed on the People of the Book to humiliate or you say subdue them. And now, any tax system Oh, I didn't, I forgot to actually forgot to comment on that you mind if I quickly? Okay, so So the issue of jizya when Joseph was talking about being subdued, now, Joseph actually is referring to chapter nine, verse 29, of the Quran. That's a very interesting verse. When we go to the Tafseer, the commentaries written by Muslim scholars, what is the context of that particular verse, where the verse states that you fight
those who do not believe in God and and most people have the book. Now, this verse actually was revealed in the final year of the prophets life, okay, when he was directly being threatened by the Romans, the evidence is clear and tacos here. Okay, even though Kathy alludes to it, and there are other prophecies that make it very clear that this incident, the incident of the Romans planning to attack the Muslims was there. And this verse was revealed revealed in response to fight the Romans, in other words, defend yourselves. Don't let them come and subdue you rather you subdue them and charge them to do this is the point.
You say free Palestine, are you giving it away? anyway.
So to come back to my you're not giving it away anytime soon is by the looks of
just yeah, being imposed to subdue, despite the explanation is given us about there was a very different reason given for jizya than for zakat. So we're not talking to begin with an ecosystem. So an ecosystem I agree will equal, it's not equal to one, this is my fundamental point, discriminated. Now in any Islamic a more equal, they're actually not equal, no fixed jizya. There is no fixed use yet. And I can give you countless examples. Not only did I have to bring sources
of Jews that had to pay for hire, now you can say they pay for hire, because I am what you call it, because it was a good example of a nice great hire. So I have to come back next week and do it. There's a there's a
there's a book called Islamic imperialism by a writer called the frame cache. He goes to great lengths I can't remember the source but he gives an example of where bam, when Cairo is captured in the the Islamic at the first Islamic conquest, that kind of empire you can tell me who that would be Rashida? Yes, carry on. And we've been asked captured Cairo, Cairo at the time, it writes back and he says, There's 10,000 payroll tax, Oh, geez, you're paying Jews living here with great villas and great wealth. And he's talking about basically taking the land so they can tax. Have you have you read a book on the Arab conquest of Egypt? Okay, go and read that book.
And you will find plenty of references in there, where the the Christians as well as the Jews actually appreciated the Arab takeover of Egypt. So, this is something again, with the greatest effect, one of the things I always am suspicious of, is books coming predominantly from Muslim sources. Not a Muslim book, I just mentioned, it is written by Alfred J. Butler. Okay. Alfred J. Butler. Okay. Now then.
conquest of Egypt, please go and read it. And he reports a lot of these accusations and lies against Arab conquests. You will be fascinated. You'll be blown away. Oliver J. Butler. So one of the what's been consistent in Adnan's argument is that when the Muslim armies invaded, the Jewish people welcomed them. Yeah. And there are certainly cases like to lay though, and we're neither where that was the case. No, even even when Tarik bzr entered signs olhar Zion zohore, a Jewish historian in his book, states that when the Muslims landed a Gibraltar, the Jews of Spain welcomed them as liberators. And this is what my argument is. It's exactly what the Jewish is No, I'm saying I'm
saying there were definitely examples of that happening. But I'm saying what tends to happen is when Muslims look back on history, they assume it was always like that. Oh, and we never claimed that. We didn't even claim that No, okay, fine. The overwhelming period of coexistence and peaceful harmony and flourishing of the Jewish people, and their prosperity is overwhelming. But the evidence is overwhelming, except for all the massacres we went through. Yeah, there were exceptions. No doubt. We already acknowledged
And the main point I want to make is if life was so great under Islam, and life was so good living under Islam and under the caliphate or under Muslim rule, was it not? It was good at times and bad attacks. This is what I'm saying all the examples I gave, do you think I can? I
just made my point. Yeah, yeah.
The minute that Jews could escape Islamic lands, they fled. There were a million Jews living in Muslim countries. Around 67, around 80 years ago, there was a million Jews living there. In Arab lands, I believe there were 850,000 Jews. Today, there's less than 3000. And they're predominantly in Morocco. The synagogue around the corner from me has more Jews than the entire Arab world. Let that sink in the synagogue once in a Now, let's say so we have to ask the question why?
I'm confirming that that's why did the Jews leave the Arab world if life was so good under Islam? Why did the Jews flee? And now some people say, well, they were fleeing for a better life for more money. But we can look at other impoverished parts of Europe, where Jews live impoverished parts of South America where Jews live, where Jews don't live in a high socio economic bracket, yet they still don't flee. The Holocaust. 6 million Jews were killed in the Holocaust in Europe, yet there are more Jews left in Europe and not the rich nations places like Ukraine, and there are more Jews living there than there are in all of the Arab world. So you have to ask yourself the question, if
Muslims don't persecute Jews, or didn't persecute Jews, and Islam fundamentally treats Jews Well, why did the Jews flee? A very, very good question, a million dollars question. And my response will be $2 million responses. Okay. The question is, if Islam was so good to Jews, and if the Muslims flourished, and Joseph still uses the word if despite all the evidence, I presented historic evidence, which cannot be denied and has not been denied by most Jewish historians. Amazingly, Joseph still
put a big effort on that. No problem, you can go and check.
It amazingly, it is the Jewish historians who are insisting on the golden age of the house of Israel under Muslim rule. Now, my question is, Joseph, if your question is valid, and if it is an intelligent question, Where were the Jews for 1000 years, from the year 1000? To 1900? Very simple answer. Yes. So
where was the 90% of the population? What's the date range? Just give me the dates again, let's say 900 to 119 101,000 years, so 900 to 1900 1900. So I would change because the majority of them began to be in Ashkenazi in Europe, but you're talking the early history when they were 1000 years 90% of Jewish people. So they were living where they lived before the advent of Islam. Yeah, they were living in the Middle East. They're living in their brain, they will live according to better living, according to Bernard Lewis, again, a Jewish Babylon so 900, Iraq, Yemen, yes. Egypt. Yeah, North Africa, even India, mobile, India and
India. Yeah, very few, very few. No doubt Turkey. Okay. So Joseph is actually confirming that over 90% I mean, according to Bernard Lewis, over 90% of the Jewish people, for 1000 years lived under the domain of Islam. Why? Why were they not escaping to Africa, for example, you know, no, no, if they don't want to go to Christian Europe, I can, I can understand because they were being Wait, wait, wait. They were being accused of dye side dye side is killing of God, the Jews were persecuted heavily throughout Europe, and European history for killing God, Jesus Christ, okay. And as opposed to just killing the Talmud was burned in public in the 13th century, after the fall of fourth
Lateran Council of 10 1215. And many examples, in fact, the reason why the Jews welcomed the Muslim forces as liberators was the fourth Council of Toledo, the fourth Council of Toledo, which was held in 633. Sorry, 636 33, a year after the prophet of Islam death, Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him died at 630 to 633. There was a Catholic Council held in Toledo, in the city of Toledo in Spain, where it was decreed by the Catholic Church that all the Jewish people have to give away their children to the Catholic Church, to be raised as Catholics. So the Jewish children were forcefully converted into Christianity. When the Muslims came in, in 711. Literally, let's say almost eight
years after this incident, the Jews welcomed them as
liberators according to signs or another Jewish historian, right. So all of this
put together, we see that the Jewish people were happy under Muslim rule. How do we know that? By looking at their testimonies, which I have already quoted earlier, from place to place, the person to person, Jewish rabbis are saying, We are happy, we are pleased, our living standards are even better than theirs Muslims.
The question which was asked after that Now, why did the Jewish people leave the Muslim lands, the doing of Israel? because what happened was when the zinus took over, after the British Mandate that took over the land of Palestine, and the conducted massacres of innocent Palestinians, there was a backlash. You know, what brothers like Joseph failed to understand or possibly deliberately failed to acknowledge is the political, the political situation of the Middle East at the time, okay, Muslim didn't suddenly wake up one day and say, Okay, hold on a second. We're gonna go for all the Jews now. No, it doesn't work like that. They had 1000 years to do it. They had 1000 years to do it
when they had armies, like Mamelukes the Ottomans. You know, what the Ottomans were, you know, their military strength. You know, what they had, you have no idea they were there, they besieged Vienna 1000s of miles away from from Constantinople. you telling me they couldn't see the Jews at home? Right at the doorstep? They could see them, right. What happened in 1940s? Is the question Why suddenly all the Jewish people started to leave Muslim lands because they were blaming the Zionist, like Orthodox Jews from Stamford Hill and Golders Green today, our daily and nightly condemning the zinus for doing things in the name, which they completely disowned. And we cherish these Jewish
brothers and sisters. So who are great people who are simply disowning the Zionist, like widow Muslim, disown ISIS, right? ISIS equals zinus. Okay, and, and speaking against the atrocities of the Zionist against the Palestinian people is not anti semitism, because there are Jewish, our Jewish friends, they are not Zionist, and they condemn all the atrocities against the Palestinian people. Right. So this is what happened in the 1940s. context, a historic context, which is not acknowledged. So why did they suddenly wake up? So this is what happened. That's why many of these Jewish people started to leave Muslim lands because they could see what the what was happening in
Palestine at the time is going to have an impact on their lives. So they started to leave for lands where they felt safe, and I don't blame them, I don't blame them. And they were doing what was best for them. And, and, to this day, we have nothing but a feeling of sympathy, a feeling of love and compassion towards the Jewish people, despite all the atrocities in the in the
he is, he is right. Oh, there you go.
We'll learn about history
two minutes ago,
my final statement and then you can come in. So as I said, to emphasize the point we have nothing but a feeling of sympathy, love and compassion towards the Jewish people. In fact, the Constitution of Medina, the document agreed upon between the prophet of Islam and the Jewish people of Medina. It states the final sentences that Muslims are commanded to extend a hand of sympathy towards the Jewish people, right? This is exactly what we believe in. We were never an enemy of the Jewish people. We will never be the enemy of the Jewish people. Politics circumstances, geopolitical events can change feelings from time to time from place to place. That doesn't mean that Muslim
civilization is anti semitic. It is not it has ever been solved.