Library Chat #24 – Establishing the Khilafah Between Theology and Pragmatism

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said I want to come Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh Alhamdulillah wa Salatu was Salam, ala Nabi about the Mr. Bharat. Brothers and sisters, it's been a while since I've done a library chat and Inshallah, as you're aware, I'm trying to spice it up, do different things. Some of them involve conversations with other people, and SubhanAllah. It just so happened that I was speaking with two friends of mine, one of whom I met many times the other one I've only corresponded with, but there's definitely a strong friendship between us, we're talking about the same topics. And I thought Subhanallah, it would make so much sense if the three of us can just have a frank dialogue and engage in a very,

very sensitive topic. And so that's exactly what we're going to be doing today. In sha Allah Tala, we're going to be talking about a topic that really is so many of us, in the Muslim world, in the in the activist field, we are debating and talking amongst ourselves. And that is really the reality of establishing an a type of Islamic political system, how feasible is it? How realistic is it? Is it something that is a part and parcel of our tradition? If so, is it theological? Or is it physically based? And if so, is it topi fee is the methodology to do so in trying to dish it out? Or is it it's the how the and if so, what level of priority, you know, does such a reality have so these are very,

very deep topics and joining me today I have two very esteemed guest. First, we have Imam Tom Facchini, who converted to Islam in 2010, a year before he finished his Bachelors of Arts in political science from visar College. Then he went on to study at Jama Estonia in Medina, where I met him a number of times, I think, for pizza for always taken and also for burgers. But yes, and have though, met a number of times when I used to visit he was studying over there. And he obtained his BA from Korea to Sharia. And He then returned to America. And he's currently the research research director of Islam and society at the European Institute here in Dallas. And he's also the

resident scholar of Utica, is that correct pronunciation EU ticker or Utica was and pronounce you. Okay? You guys should know this Utica Masjid in New York. And he also teaches to see it and Islamic history online, through legacy international online, Islam High School. And of course, the amount of time has already carved out a niche for himself online by talking about topics that you rarely hear being discussed by graduates of Islamic Studies. And that is political science, secularism, European colonialism and political theory. And so that's why I was talking with him back and forth. And I said, let's have a conversation. He said he's shallot for sure. That will be our first guest, Tim.

I'm Tom, welcome back to coffee. Ken, thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure Hamdulillah. And we also have with us who start with man butter, who is the joining us all the way from Down Under Australia, Sydney, Australia. And he is the editor and research operations manager at aromatics Institute, and a longtime student of Arabic and Islamic Studies and continental philosophy. And he deserves a Mobarak a welcome a special welcome from us because he has just finished a PhD in philosophy from Western Sydney University. And the topic was a critique of the conception of secularity and the legitimation of secularism in liberal political thought. And of

course, we started Earthman Berger, is very well known online. And that's how I got to know him by reading his post very deep, very analytical, very fair, very balanced. I actually reached out to him, I contacted a number of friends and I said, I need to get in touch with this person. I think that was three years ago, if I shared with mine, I forgot them. And we started corresponding, you know, back and forth, and it hamdulillah it's just been wonderful. And again, these are some of the similar topics we've been discussing. So I haven't yet physically met him because we're so far apart, but inshallah my next trip to Australia, we're definitely going to make some time but start

with Mod, welcome Alhamdulillah.

And challenges are going

to be Hamdulillah. So the way we decided we're going to discuss this as a very organic discussion. Inshallah, we're all going to begin by summarizing some of the thoughts we have, and forgive us if they're not really very well thought out, because these are, I mean, at least from my side, these are more generic thoughts than, you know, an actual lecture I'm giving but um, so we're all going to start off by 10 Max, you know, 15 minutes or so we summarize what our viewpoint is about political engagement about the establishment of a Islamic political system, and pros and cons and how we view it and then after the three of us are done, Inshallah, we will then have a organic conversation,

brothers and sisters this is not scripted at all because I really want to engage with raw you know, ideas and to see genuinely how we feel. And so they have generously allowed me to begin and then a shallow pass it over to start the Earth man and then share that

Home and inshallah then after that we'll have a discussion. So from my side I have three points that again are in my head so I'm going to try to verbalize them in the best manner possible. The first point that I have jumping straight to the the issue here at hand in my reading of the Quran in my reading of the Sunnah in my analysis of the Sierra, I find that the issue of establishing Islamic political authority independent Islamic political authority is not something that is central and emphasized as much as so many other aspects are emphasized. In fact, I've tried to wrack my knowledge and brain and look at the Quran and Sunnah to see where there is a direct command upon the

community to do so. And it is difficult for me to find an explicit verse, in contrast to many dozens of other you know, commands and prohibitions now true, reading the Quran and the Sunnah. And knowing the aspects of the Sharia, there is an implicit understanding, there's an implicit derivation, that, for example, when Allah says, you know, this is the penalty of Hammurabi, this is the penalty of Zina, you know, then clearly there has to be a polity, there has to be an established, you know, political entity to enact, you know, these, these realities of the Sharia. And so no doubt, it is healthy, it is a part and parcel of the long term agenda and goal of the Sharia, to have a land

where all of the laws are applied. But, and my analysis and of course, that's where having conversation could be right or wrong. If we were to list the 100 priorities of the OMA, if we were to go over the 100 You know, obligations or what you know, a Muslim should do in my assessment and understanding the obligation on the individual Muslim, to make a concerted effort to establish a a political establishment on this earth would be very, very low on this list, not very high on this list. It's a generic product key fire, I'll be the first to say this, but there are far more important product key fires, number one, and number two, not to mention, there's a whole host of

further ions, like even before you get to fourth key fire, there's a whole host of other ions. So if I were to start thinking about how many verses say amino or how many verses say, you know, a chemo Salah how many verses say establish the gap, how many verses they believe in the Day of Judgment, you know, even speaking the truth or was it over the last animal stuff anymore? Be good to your parents, you know, on and on and the prohibitions as well on and on. But when I started thinking about where exactly specifically are we being told even as a community directly unequivocally to establish an independent system, you know, I find I find it difficult to find the level of emphases

now again, again, to be clear, it is understood by some commandments that this needs to exist, but Allah azza wa jal did not make it an obligation to the same level that he made obligation to so many other things. And this is in fact, in my humble opinion was still point number one, in conformity with the reality of the theological principle, a tech leaf will be Mullah, you talk being burdened with that which a person cannot do. You know, the average uncles and aunties, man Come on, they can barely run a masjid here. But they even if that and to assume that, you know, the alarm of the OMA to assume that the bulk of the Ummah, this is one of the main obligations on them, you're putting on

them an obligation that doesn't exist, and also not even they're not even capable of doing so, in my humble opinion. First point, I have three as I said, it's a generic faulty fire. Some people should do it great. And may Allah bless them, but it's not the emphases and that's why my Dawa is not based upon these emphases The second point I have, and this is theological as well. To me a reading of this Quran and Sunnah is very clear that Jana and salvation is not contingent on establishing an Islamic political entity. On the other hand, Jana is contingent on a host of other factors. Personal piety does gear to enough's your karma to Salah avoiding the major sins, and on and on and on. And

so looking at the world around us, it makes little sense for me who has limited time limited capacity, limited bandwidth limited influence, to leave that which a person needs to go to gender. And to start talking about that which Yanni, even if it does exist at max, it's going to be beneficial, but it will not inherently lead to Jannah. In other words, even if we have an ideal Islamic political land, there will be plenty of people. They're still doing cupboard inside of it since the time of the Sahaba, even at the time of the process, and there'll be plenty of people that are struggling with faith inside of it. On the other hand, there are people struggling with fate and

I can talk to them directly, I can speak to them directly. So an Islamic state an ideal Islamic State will not guarantee that every person is going to go to gender agreed it might mitigate factors that cause people to leave but it can't prevent. On the other hand, directly jumping into this Kia an athlete

Until sphere and Imaan, antiquated emaan and encouraging people to do good and abstaining from evil, it will have an immediate impact that shall actually be salvation. And so this is my second point that looking at what is salvation looking at, you know, what gender is contingent on. And then I have limited bandwidth, it just makes logical sense for me to concentrate on the bigger picture to concentrate on that, which is more important. The third and final opinion, and this is, I know, gonna get me to some trouble out as if the first two aren't. But we're being honest here. That's the whole point. We're trying to really be honest. And if I'm wrong, how does Bismillah correct me,

that's the point. But I have to be honest here that I lament the fact. raw, unfiltered, I'm saying how I feel that those parties that have been involved in Islamic politics for the last 678 decades, right, those those movements, and you know what they are, in my humble opinion, they have failed to give us a viable and well thought out and holistic and practical and tangible vision for how such a modern Islamic State would function in the world that we live in. Now, you know, and I know I'm being stereotypical but let's be real here in terms of the people we interact with online, the Facebook people and whatnot. And, you know, the the the overzealous folks that are online, if you

listen to some of these people describe their version of an Islamic state, their notions of a modern Muslim philosopher, frankly, I'm not trying to be dismissive or too harsh or or mocking. It's as if they have a hell edified, you know, socialist, Norway, you know, they want to like Denmark, that is all hijab is, you know, I'm saying like free education, free health care, free housing, minimal crimes, minimal this and that. Okay.

How will this state function? How will all of this beat VBP be tricky? I mean, simple reality. Islamic law forbids taxes, there Islamic law, everybody knows you shouldn't tax the people call us. Where are you going to, you're going to do Jizya, you're going to you're going to keep on waging jihad against the rest of the world, in the modern world we live in, you know, does an Islamic political state actually have to provide free health care? Again, with utmost respect to the people who believe it does read your history? Even if you find anecdotes here and there for the bulk of the ummah? No, there wasn't free health care, there wasn't free education. There was crimes taking

place. There were you know, Motorola neon, they were well known in the time of the Obama years, and they are buses. How can a modern state even function disconnected from the UN disconnected from the global network of banks? Also, again, have we thought out? Again, we have these idealistic notions, oh, gender segregation, oh, everybody's gonna be dressed properly. Okay. What will a modern Islamic State do? If women are protesting? We don't want to wear the hijab? Is it allowed and justifiable to use lethal force? Can the army come and shoot people? Because they want they don't want to do? They're doing a minor sin? Let's say Is it is it? I mean, to what level? Are you going to jail them

for? Not praying? Fajr, for example, so how? I mean, again, so many questions, how do we navigate the spectrum of modahaus? Have we thought through this even simple reality of abortion, right? Again, whether you like it or not the knife have positions that many people cringe at the shaft that is demonic is that it's a spectrum. So what are you going to do you're going to adopt one and ignore the others are so have we even thought things through in this regard? What I find and again, I hope I'm proven wrong. I find slogans, emotional slogans that appeal to the masses, but not really thought out. And I find people who don't have much political acumen, political experience, with

grandiose visions of how this utopia is going to be without thinking things through. We have in front of our eyes, modern attempts, including ISIS, whether you like it or not, they were following versions of *ty either or mainstream, including the Taliban. Do we want to have a party band like enterprise, including Iran, despite our theological differences with them, right? Look at how discontent the people are, look at how much Ill had an atheism and secularism is spreading because they hate the religious clergy that have been put in charge of them. So my third point is practically pragmatically logistically Have you the groups that are involved in these and always

criticizing the rest of us? Have you really given us food for thought? Have you worked out how you would actually be doing this especially post out of spring and we see the dismal failure 75 years of attempts you get to the office and you can't even get with my love and respect my heart is with those people with the protesters with the people killed, but I'm sorry, you know, hindsight is 2020. So I have to say, you know, you haven't shown to me that you are a viable for

said I can even trust. And so my third point is logistics. So to conclude, I'm really happy to hear of certain people involved on this front, wanting to establish, you know, a political system, all the best to them, my dewasa for them, Allah, He, I wish that they succeed. But I personally find my bandwidth is limited, my experiences are different, My forte is different, my strength is different. And so for me, I find that I need to concentrate my work and my effort in other areas, even as I wish the best best for those people working on this front. And inshallah if and when they are successful, you know, you will find the at the forefront, you know, supporting something of this

nature, you are not going to find me stopping you in your way. But at the same time, don't make me an enemy. And don't make us an enemy. When all we're simply saying and pointing out is we don't think this is the number one priority you do you you do all the best. And inshallah we hope the best if you're successful, we'll be following you in those endeavors. So this was a summary of my few points in sha Allah. And with that, I'll hand it over to we'll start with man for his few 1015 minutes, and then we're going to go to share, Imam Tom, this Mila

just come along.

We also I think we agree just for the audience's benefit that in the first session, we won't directly respond to each other so that we can sort of present what we present our original thoughts, and then we'll come back and engage on these

on these points, and I think shot yesterday has raised some very important,

very important critical questions. So my 10 minutes, I want to, again, put on the table some thoughts that I had on the topic, there are points that we will agree on, there are some that we think differently on.

I want to mention probably three points, elaborated on three points as a starting point.

The first being on the place of the Khilafah, or the caliphate, Islam. I think that's the central question that really we're asking today. And the other question we're asking is, you know, form and method. There are three major, major lines of inquiry that we're touching on, what is the place of faith in Islam? And number two, in our particular context, in the late modern world? What form will it take? What form can it take? What's the method to go about this? So

three thoughts on those three points, first of all, on the question of obligation.

As far as my studying, reading goes on, I think this is a fairly uncontroversial point. As far as classical scholarship goes, I think that there's an obligation, it is a phunki failure. But nevertheless, it's established. And it's an established obligation and its obligation that I would argue, has

significant priority. Now he there's a lot of things that can be said to him, but I think if I

just mentioned two or three

articulations from our tradition, that elaborate both on what the place and the the role of the cleanup phase, and also it's a token that needs a bit there'll be better than me talking sort of in generic terms.

I can start off probably start with Imam and most of these very concise articulation in a lack mo Soltani, in which he says that Imam attimo admin if you left in normal Wi Fi healthy dealing with sciatica dunya, that the IMA denotes succession of proffered in the production of the dean and the management of the worldly affairs

waktu Halima cobia, will no matter where you wouldn't village map and contracting it to someone in the old metaphyseal. This role is an obligation by each map.

This is this point that it's an obligation and the consensus on the obligation is, again, fairly uncontroversial and very common to find in the classical tradition.

But I think it's important to highlight he also

although this definition is very concise, is really getting to the point and the place of the Khilafah in the deen, which is that it can be understood as the form of Islamic governance, but

it's it's about preservation of the deen and managing the worldly affairs in accordance with the then and

really, you can we can go further than this. And in fact, actually going let me let me allow the the scholars to speak here in a way. The second authority I would articulate and I'm using the ones that are very concise a line or two Max Scheffel Islam Dania, he says in CSS, Sharia, that ug Well, you know, we learned that I mean, in nursing, I've only worried about the it's

It's imperative to know that the office in charge of governing the affairs of the people, which is the philosopher is one of the greatest obligations of the so again, this touches on not only the token but the place the priority is one of the greatest I have ever wondered about it deep. If he goes further luckier many Dini one le duniya. In Libya.

In fact, may there is no the dean is not established.

Nor is that normal can we manage the affairs of the world properly except by it? So, now, the another way of saying this would be well, Islam has many aspects to it. And without the governance aspect, you have to let go of large portions of the deep.

And in that sense, you cannot we cannot bring the deen into practice into a lived mode of being without the governance aspect to it. My final citation, if you will, will be from a man called Toby, in SFC, Allah Subhana Allah is saying why Brooklyn well academia

fill out the Khalifa

remember to be says instead of seeing how the US Moon Venus VMM in war Khalifa this idea is an evidence. In fact, probably the primary evidence or the main evidence or the foundational evidence for the appointment of an Imam Abu Hanifa you snarling away what is who is the bait

lead pen stand your weekly Matt so that he around which because of which we establish unity within for the VR cameras and Eva, the camera established while as he left he mudra with Ali Cabanel Almighty wala Bina in Marathi there is no difference of opinion on this. On obligation of this between the owner or between the scholars, Ilana Rihanna, ASAN, Hazel Khanna and honey Shariati is awesome, except that one of the look at a lot some one of the key model from Tesla, about

Mr. Gotti plays on the words and says he said this because he was deaf with respect to the Sharia. In other words, this is a landmark, this disciplining doesn't have any value. So I think these are these are sufficient. There are many more of those types of articulations in the classical tradition, that I think established not only the obligation,

but I would argue the priority, the very high priority of the caliphate. Now we talk about evidences, I will stick to my original sort of notes, rough notes, in which I didn't want to go into the evidences. There are many evidences there is a continuance of evidence on the basis of witness call as an agonist point obviously, when scholars say there's an obligation, it can't come out of, kind of out of the blue. There are evidences in the Quran or evidence in the Sunnah their evidence in his mouth. So I have arguably the most strong evidences digimaster however, they're also evidence in application of Kuwait, also Leah and Kuwait. So I'm happy to refer to specific points. And I

would like to come back to yesterday's point about the lack of explicit evidence in the Quran.

So that's as far as the evidence goes, now, I would make an additional point quickly that

classically, there is no

more double FDLR from this point.

In contemporary times, in the modern period, there is

for obvious reasons, perhaps, there is some FDF some, which I again, would not consider a value which explicitly denies the religious obligation, they will like

Javed Ahmadi, for example, but more considerable, if we go into more reputable authorities, contemporary authorities, they won't deny the theoretical obligation, but they will kind of end up somewhere like where she has, has articulated, of sort of a practical, what we can call a practical negation of the obligor is not a theoretical one. So you will firm the theoretical obligation, but you end up in a place where it's not all that important. It's not all that obligatory.

And I haven't got time to go into that more fully. But I've written an article on this titled questioning the caliphate, and it's published on the informatics Institute's website that people can refer to we'll probably come back to talk about some of the particulars of that in my remaining five odd minutes. The other two points I would make one is a method

so this is an obligation okay, how do you go about it? He there's a lot more room for movement as it works. Here. It's a matter of issue yet this is not a there's no clear cut method. There's no set blueprint that we get from anywhere. Of course, if we get it for some we will get from the Prophet sallallahu Sallam the Prophet salallahu Salam it should be mentioned did

establish an Islamic governance which became later on after his death definitely left

handed because the left has conceived of as succession otherwise in the form there's no significant

difference between the polity that he established and the one that will work out or the alarm took over.

So he did establish that. And he did so from scratch, if you will. And so definitely that is our starting point to start thinking about the method. And there's a lot of work that's been done on that. But I would argue that that's not a that establishes for us broad parameters, as opposed to an A to Zed blueprint that we can copy paste into our own time. What are those broad Promat parameters, things like for example, he didn't use material or violent meats. And so the method was, at its core, to build and to to establish an entity grounded in the in the conviction of people not forcing something against their will.

Also, a couple of things that I mentioned in these parameters, there was what we might call intellectual work that will work groundwork to foster that conviction

in society, but there was also political struggle in Mecca.

You know,

with Quraysh, with the leaders of Qureshi inviting them push back boycott, there was struggle. I think this is a very important point, because in the in the Slammers fee, or in the Dallas fee, if I can call it that, it's almost cliched to say that front, you know, process and then work for 13 years on Imen on tarbiyah, on Aki, that before he did anything else, which I would submit is a truth, but I have truth.

Because, well, depending on how you define those things, usually what's being implied is that what we should be doing is we're going to Halaqaat lessons lectures now of that nature, intellectual,

intellectual, but also sort of pedagogical education. Right pastoral. But let's see. So it stopped short, it stopped short of the political. And I think that's, that's a half truth, if not a misrepresentation, because there's a lot more going on in the first 13 years, with Ross outside of them than just that. So, so intellectual work, political struggle, things of this nature.

That's my second point. My third and final point

would be that.

I think a lot of these points, I don't think any of this is really controversial. There are details that we can look at. I actually think one of the things that we suffer from large portions of the OMA suffer from a not a not grounded or rooted in the misunderstanding of the text that's there. For me, that's the that's the driver. I think one of the things that drives this is

almost self inflicted, or a learned helplessness, an almost defeatist attitude or shortsightedness, perhaps, political naivete, perhaps a pessimism, or things which go against our tradition, right. Our tradition teaches us, Allah and the prophets are some teachers to be optimistic, to have faith, they have to work hard to think big. Right. And this is absolutely clear the Syrah and in the exams of the Sahaba, but we tend to shut ourselves down.

And now I'll make just one point here, because I'm running out of time. If we think, as I'm thinking at the OMA level, I'm thinking at the political level, at the geopolitical level, and the possibilities, because I think a lot of people start from the possibility and go, this is really, really, really hard. This ain't gonna happen. Right? And then that, that they they're looking back at the text through that lens. And therefore, they they may come to conclusions, which really, in my reading, clashed with things that are very clear

in the tradition and the scholarly articulations. But but if we, you know, think about just 30 years ago,

let's look at the world geopolitical 30 years ago, in two minutes.

China,

look at China then and now. China in the 1980s, was third world.

Not that significant. China did, hey, the US and Europe has stood up and have to pay attention and everyone's going, I wonder what they're gonna do next.

They weren't there at the top. They have to be taken seriously. 30s 3040 years? Look at Turkey

30 years ago, today, massive differences. Look at the US 30 years ago, after the fall of the Soviet Union. It was on top of the world. It thought you know, you know, in political terms, it is God on earth. Now, it's back amongst the polar players. And there are many other examples that can be used. My point is

significant changes can happen even in small periods of times politically and historically speaking, than when bigger. So

to extend that forward, there will be significant changes in the next 13 In the next 30 or Geez, 20 3050 years, there will be significant changes. That's not That's not I think anyone doubts that. The question is what role will my playing

Will we continue to play a role where we are an object where we are a passive recipient? Or will we always start slowly but surely to dream, to think to imagine to work, and to drive some of these changes? I've no doubt that we can do it

comparatively with any other force in the world today. But I think it's a matter of mindset and a matter of

will and, and strategy as much as a number of other things. And I'll stop there. And we'll come back to some of these issues are very beneficial as I call him. I'm Tom Bismillah. Your turn. Mr. Lau 100. Sana Sula, Allahu Akbar haka was bothered about that I was looking to just remember pologize, my throats been a little scratchy all day, but I'll get right to it. So does the city I have such a notion of the Khilafah. And the obligation they have? I'd say absolutely. Yes. I think that's beyond doubt.

A loss from a data set and certainly Sir, in Anza, illegal Kitab will help Lee Takoma been a nurse Bhima Iraq Allah. He said this panel data that certainly we have sent down to you is talking to the Prophet of the South Sudan. The book in truth, why Allah subhanaw taala says Lee Takoma been in this so that you would judge between the people, anybody who knows tafseer the Arabic language they know that the lamb that's used here, this lemons lead to a loss Fanta Otto is saying the reason why, right that he sent down this book, so that the Prophet salallahu Alaihe Salam could rule rule who and NAS Alif Lam and listed rock origins, the people, all the people, not just the Muslims,

the Hadith we have Hadith in Sahih Muslim I follow Aryan mentor at in lovely Allah Hi Jana Fiamma de la Hodges Allah, woman Mata Elisa fear Ohnaka, Hebei atonement, Mata Mehta, Tanja Healy yet and that the person who removes his hand from obedience, he meets a loss found on the day of judgment without a clear arguments or convincing arguments. And whoever dies and he does not have upon his neck obey an oath of allegiance, then he dies, a death of Jaya Helia of ignorance. These are things that are fairly direct. And as Dr. Eggman has has already previously mentioned, the scholarly literature on the interpretation of these texts is fairly uncontroversial and clear as to what that entails.

There are several rational arguments also to make for the necessity and obligation of the Khalifa one of them that believing that the city is the supreme form of law or societal organization, that in itself is an article of faith for every Muslim and that one that they should have postponed certain sorts of marry that woman Let me accompany mountains of Allah, but will like a woman care for

those who do not rule by what Allah smart Allah has revealed that they are the deniers. And so we have Yes, this notion of supreme, Sharia supremacy is actually an article of faith for us. We also have, and this is an argument that also the Scot the classical scholars bring up all of the rulings that we have, whether it's criminal law, or me Roth, or this, that or the third, if we don't take the necessary means to create the structures to implement them, then what becomes of these assets, they become essentially ink on paper, which is not befitting of the guidance of the last person to audit which is supposed to be implemented. Another rational argument comes from as Dr. With man

brought up sort of the idea of the Khalifa, Allah's found out refers to people, the creation of people and so that's the Bacara with not actually a name of like their species or not a name of that's merely descriptive. It's actually an aspirational term in Niger. I don't feel ugly Califa he says that I'm going to place on Earth, a successor, one who is going to rule and do things according to the wishes of Allah subhanaw taala. So there's a microcosm macrocosm aspect here, okay. The microcosm is that every single individual has a responsibility to be Allah's Khalifa upon earth when it comes to what they have authority over. And so why would we not have a collective responsibility

to also therefore establish a Khalifa in order to rule society and rule in order in the way that a loss found out it would have this rule and then finally we have the famous principle and also the fact that the scholar I'm going to bet yet he put in a couple of Arabic he said Malaya, Tim Awaji, Boni la vie, VO RW, varicella they know that if there you have something that is obligatory, then any, you know, constituent part, that is also that as necessary to fulfill that obligation therefore becomes obligatory in and of itself. So I think that it's

fairly uncontroversial to say the Khilafah is something Islamic governance whatever we want to call it is a yes. Fuck Keifa it is an important it is it is an important obligation upon upon the Muslims. How do we achieve it? Okay. Well, that's where the devils in the details.

I want to I want to clarify, I think one misconception that a lot of people, nobody hear from the law but that you hear when people start talking about South African politics. There's this sense of inevitability, right, that people sort of refer to when they think about time and they think about history, they say, well, we can't go back in time. And that's, as you know, Dr. If math said half truth, right? This is a half truth, okay? Yes, you cannot ever literally go back in time, okay, you cannot recreate exactly the same historical circumstances, the same dates, the same events. But history is not simply linear, it is cyclical things go in cycles, they go back and forth. We've even

seen in the United States recently how, you know, with decades of planning and agitation and strategy, the Catholic right has been able to overturn Roe versus Wade, something that nobody thought was possible. You know, compare that to say 2015. And the other sorts of years where legislation the United States has passed, that has allowed homosexual marriage, or a lot other sorts of things. In the same breath, people saying, Oh, well, now you can't go back and change it. Obviously, you can, you actually can, you can go back and change things, there is a pathway to do it. But it's the how that's the important thing. And I would, I would assert, and I think that Dr.

With men and my sort of takes here are going to be fairly similar, that you can't unlock true Islamic governance without reversing some of the central features of two main forces. And that would be the European colonialism and secularism.

There's a lot there. But in the brief time that I have, I'll say that politically, the city, I must be the ultimate authority over the government and not vice versa, the government must not be the authority over the city, the government cannot be allowed to make the city or the scholars etc. It's plaything and this is the difference between genuine, authentic Islamic governance, or at least, let's say sustainable and true Islamic governance in something like a theocracy that we have in Iran, or other places where you have a complete centralization, of religious scholarship. So there's something that's very, very important, a feature there. That's the decentralization of religious

scholarship, the independence both economic and political independence of the yoga mat, is something that is extremely, extremely important to generating the proper theory and application. And as we'll see, in a second, in my little time, we have left subject formation that has to go into turning this thing around and trying to get anything like a theta alpha.

How are we going to do it? How can we possibly make an automat that is decentralized and independent, economically and politically? Well, we already have a model, and that's the what we have the religious endowment, this is something that is decentralized that is out of the hands of the government. And the interesting thing, the interesting thing is that in Western countries, we're allowed to make it right maybe in some other countries that are Muslim majority countries, even you're perhaps not allowed or your assets would be seized. But we have this technology, this economic political technology, in our tradition, the walk, which was actually no secret was the

first target of the European colonists when they came to the Muslim lands. So we need to get the locks back. Part of the reason for that is because we need to get independent, or them back. And that is a huge ingredient in how we do it.

We need to the second thing I'll say politically, is undoing sort of, or taking account for the subject formation. So a lot of people misunderstand when they think that we're going to bring back the Laffer, we're going to bring back Islamic law or something like that. It's just about a system. It's just about developing laws and slapping those laws on society. And this is where I think Dr. Eggman was going, when he was talking about what were those first 13 years, they were subject formation, right subject formation was an extremely, extremely important part of it. It wasn't the only part of it, as was mentioned, but it was an extremely important part, developing a

consciousness and a way of identifying oneself that's not going to fall prey to nationalism, that's not going to fall prey to this sort of ethnic superiority, which would make us susceptible to balkanization, or these sorts of other things that have been only a liability on the OMA and not something working for us. And then just a few points, economically, I think if we're going to undo some of the economic hardship that the Muslim community and the OMA is struggling against, then obviously we need economic independence. We just see how you know, the United States and other powers has frozen the assets of the Taliban in Afghanistan. There needs to be and this is not my

sphere of expertise. So I'd be interested to talk to actual economists but some

of economic independence, whether it's financial independence or just being able to avoid sanctions or being able to not have your assets frozen. This is a very, very important ingredient when it comes to reestablishing okay, that that's actually going to be sustainable. The final thing I'd like to touch on just briefly is, is there a prophetic method for doing this? And I would say, and I think this is in accordance with what has been mentioned already, that reestablishing a Khilafah is not something that's to Aboudi, or it's not something that's Toki fee, right? It's not something that the methods of doing so are strictly limited, such that the burden of proof would be upon you

to justify it. First of all, rather, it's the opposite way where it's anything that doesn't explicitly violate the Sharia is something that would be a legitimate and open tool to use. And so we have, you know, what is the prosthetic method we see to Delridge? Right, we could say that that's even sooner the Sunnah of Allah Subhana Allah to use a sort of Tada Raj approach and a gradualist approach that doesn't necessarily mean gradualist within the system. Okay, but the literal meaning of the word is that people are going to take time to change their subjectivities systems are going to take time in order to be built, and you can't do it all in one breath. And then the idea of

subject formation, which is necessitates sort of maybe the stage that we're at right now, which is the stage of apologetics and the state of Dawa and the stage of, you know, deconstructing people's colonized subjectivities and then making way to re structure and reconstruct those subjectivities in a way that is more adherent to the Sharia and Allah knows best.

hamdulillah him there is Aquila, Hamdulillah. So these were three, sorry, oh, my voice is also very, very no arrows going on. These are three nice statements. So

let us see where we are in agreement.

I like we all use the term fourth key fire.

So far, that's clear. We're all in the grid of Hartke fire.

We're also in agreement that it is

something that the city requires in order for some of the account to be established, or else those that come in are going to be established.

We're also in agreement that it is healthy, that you know some of us are getting involved in this. I think I sense from the three of us as well that we do need to plan and strategize, you know, in a in a manner. None of us said that it is Dodie Fie, we all said that the mechanisms of doing so are open for each jihad. Did I miss anything?

Okay, so where are we in disagreement,

I think quite clearly is the sense of the level of fourth key fire, where it comes in the grand scale of things. I think this is where

we are, we seem to be on different wavelengths. For me, it is

an established fact that, since the beginning of this OMA, there have always been groups of Muslims that are living as minorities outside of its fields. And

at times, these minorities were frowned upon by the majority, and at times, they flourished. So but but it's always been the case. And these minorities, by and large, organically continue to give Dawa preach to others. But unless it's so happened, that the ruler converted, which is what happened in certain areas of Malaysia, and then for example, the Maldives, unless the rulers themselves converted, we do not know of any of these types of peoples actively engaging in

overthrowing the people of their countries or their lands. And of I'm talking about as from within, obviously, when we're talking about those that are minorities, and I'm talking about Muslims as being invaded. And that's why there are still Muslim minorities, in many of these places. In the boulevards there used to be a Muslim. This is where Hungary and other places used to be as well. Other places as well, that had these lands were in pockets of Europe, in Italy as well, there were small pockets in Sicily even as well, for a period the Khilafah was established here. But then for a while, when it was overthrown, the Muslims lived as a minority under Christian rule. So there's an

undeniable reality that we've always had these pockets of precedents to look at. Sometimes those precedents ended in negative ways like the Andalusi and Muslims, right. But the question arises, what do you do when they didn't? What if the society allowed them to function and flourish? What is their role as a minority living under a majority? And I would venture that neither the Sharia nor common sense, neither our texts nor tangible reality would require us as minorities. Now we're talking specifically about us as minorities to get involved with the political power

wars of the lies that we live in, in a manner that is a threat to those powers because that becomes an existential threat to our existence. Okay, so that's something I think we didn't quite touch on. But I want to put it out there as well for for discussion. But anyway, I think this is my sense. Anyone want to add a agreement or disagreement before we get to some discussion?

I have some, but are we laying out the disagreements or I have some thoughts on that. That's if we're responding. Yeah, so good. Bismillah. You know, I think that there's two things that strike me. And one is that the call for a few Dafa or Islamic governance does not necessarily involve an overthrow. Right. I think that might might be a mischaracterization or an over narrowing of what might be imagined, if you imagine even the way that the prophets of Allah, whether he was Saddam, establish established political power, right. I mean, it was kind of like building power, political struggle, exile, and then coming back, and at the end of the day at FETs, Mecca, right, you have

most people kind of converting and accepting, right? Is that an overthrow in the same sense that like someone is saying, Well, we're citizens of a country? And you know, for overthrown? No, no, I don't want to get close to that. Right. I don't think that's what's being advocated for. The other thing, and this is a little bit more theoretical, I think that a big question that's going to determine how we're looking at this is, do we believe that modern power is unique? Or do we believe that modern power is something that is the same as pre modern power? Right? And it was interesting to me that, Dr. Eggman, you know, has an interest in continental philosophy because I do too. And,

you know, anybody who, you know, reads Foucault, Foucault, his whole thing, right, is that there's a very different type of power that's being exercised in the modern era. And we need to pay attention to that difference, because it actually does affect Islam's viability in certain spaces. His basic thing there was that in the pre modern era, you had this thing called sovereign power, okay? So sovereign power, is, you know, the Sultan calls you or the king calls you and you know, he chopped your head off, or he tortures you or something like that. These sort of gruesome, elaborate displays that everybody's aware of. And Foucault was like, well, the modern era is defined by a different

type of power, that's called disciplinary power. And disciplinary power is basically we're going to come in and we're going to change your subjectivity. We're going to change how you understand your identity, your own tradition, and everything else. Right. So I think we need to take that very, very seriously as Muslims, because if we're allowing our, if we're looking at pre modern examples of we're Muslim minorities, assuming that power works in the pre modern way that yeah, okay, we're fine. Like, you know, we're allowed to kind of nobody's trying to change Islam. You don't have people who are like orientalists, telling us that the walk was actually a bit right before the

modern period, right. But then once you get into the modern period, this modern type of power is like, we would rather in order to make you a malleable subject, we're going to change you from the inside. That's the scary thing. That's what lights the fire and the urgency as to well, okay, maybe we need to start maneuvering and strategizing so that we don't come to a point in history where we think that we're actually believing Muslims, but actually, the rugs been pulled out from under us. So who's going to possibly disagree with that, that, you know, Foucault's analysis of power is a realm that every one of us should get involved with, we need to try our best to influence and not

just to stop the influence of modern liberalism and humanism, and secularism, which is quite clearly seeping through our youth. But we also need to supplanted with what we believe to be the truth. This is what what Howard, this is what intellectual Dawa is, who's going to possibly disagree with that, actually, this is, I would say, in conformity with what I'm saying is that the battles that we have the tangible vows that we have, the level of prioritization, and even logistical realities force us to get involved with these types of things. And these are actually better in the long run. And this is the equivalent of preaching as paganism, I would say this is CRR. This is the equivalent because

we don't have modern idolatry the way to the Orisha but we do have modern intellectual idolatry, right. So for me, this is I would say, This is what all of us, you know, should be doing. And I hope we shall I'm doing it in my little niche and foretastes are excellent. With my would you like to add something? Yeah, I think there's a connection here between some of these threads.

I might

disagree and push back a little bit on this. On the last point you said they shut the asset about

that's what we do in Dow or an intellectual pedagogical work. The difference in my mind would be the content

which we decide to the limit our intellectual

work to write. So normally, and if I take your, your work generally as an example of that, but obviously, most, perhaps most, or many other scholars into art as well, the content seems to stop at the political, or if it includes certain aspects of the political, they're very selective. And so. So for example, creating that awareness about the caliphate, Islam and governance, not just as a historical reality, but as a normative part of the tradition that we need to think about, and do something about is generally not part of the intellectual work that happens in these in these domains. That would, that's where I think the differences. So otherwise, I include that work to be

part of the method. And whereas it seems that when you talk about the method, you you sort of move very quickly to overthrowing the government, political struggle with the hardest, which I think can't always be escaped. I'm not saying that's not part of it, there will also be potentially not necessarily but potentially part of the picture at some point, but it's not where it starts. Okay, so I think the what we agree on is the need for intellectual work for our work, whatever we want to call it Sunday information, right? Or what we sometimes refer to as discourse formation, you need to establish you need to change the hegemonic discourse, to move in your favor, right, the language,

the concepts, and so on and so forth.

But that can be somebody with different ways some people want to live to work just means archy that in a certain sense, that we are in a certain sense that we have certain sense,

but in certain sense that just cutting off certain aspects of the

job. So I think

I think you're right, to be honest, and my preaching and Dawa. I'm not gonna you know, sugarcoat it, it doesn't reflect the level of political sentiment that perhaps you would have done, had you been in my place, there's no denying that. But you need to understand why. Number one, I am speaking to people that come to Joomla. Once a week, listening to a hotbar, I have 25 minutes, the bulk of them are struggling to practice the bare minimum of Islam. I have to prioritize what they need. So if you understand my paradigm and explain, have no problem first CalFire you guys come together room with all top intellectuals think about this stuff. But I think it is. And I'll say this bluntly, it is a

problem to mention that which is not needed by them at the expense of that which is needed by them at this time did you have the ability to hire, these people are not even praying. And by the way, when I say these people, I mean, the bulk of the people that listen to my lectures are struggling with basic stuff of how Rahman Helen basic stuff of our can, and it's my job and I'm also struggling with this ominous stuff while I'm making a test give myself it's my job to increase the demand, bring them closer to Allah, this giftedness, etc, etc. Again, any.

Let me let me say this gently. Yeah, okay, we all have elders in our community, the uncles, aunts, we all have the board members, what do you really think that we constantly should be making this a matter of even 30% Even 20% of our talks, in my humble opinion, and that's been my philosophy, one out of every 100 Or one out of every 50 Do a little bit of Jonnie, you know, something that will bring them that type of awareness, you know, and even that I do more as a sense of it is to their pride and listen to my, you know, the hot that doesn't give me my Masjid every third fourth is a historical one, that brings a little bit of pride in their past, it's not even directly. Hey, you

guys, you have to be politically involved, because I want more never primarily politically involved, you know, so I feel I agree with that. Okay. If I just quickly add to this

added to take the discussion forward as well. I give I give them on a regular basis as well, I think these days, once a month, which I am comfortable with. And I like to have too much regular responsibility in that respect. So I'll give it like rest of the amount of microcosm of lay Muslims and in you know, 50 to once a month or 12 hours a year. I might talk about the philosopher once.

Julian once. That's my point, exact reason, and he's

having agreed on that point where I might disagree is you're focusing on that subset of Alma? Is,

is I think that's correct subset we should be talking about. If if we're going to have a sort of what we shouldn't be doing is okay. What are the various subsets in the Omega ABCDE? Okay, E. Yep, you're right. That's not You're not going to talk to the MME every single day. What about the academics? What about the scholars over the two level Island? What about the activists so

I think we need to think of the format in collective terms one term and then completely look at where, where these things can happen. Zero disagreement shocked with one, zero. I am 100% with you. So why don't you organize a conference this June, choose the Muslim country. Okay. All of us will come there.

And we'll talk about this topic. Excellent. Bring the top minds bring the movers and shakers bring the intellectual leaders, those that are at a different wavelength, and they probably are many leaders in their own spheres. And let's talk about a global reality of what can be done. But to expect the DUA attend the preachers, you know, to make this a priority. I think this is the mistake. And I think that we need to filter our message down to the level that our people need had within us ability or according to him. So and I think we're agreement on this, I think, I mean, I know, Tom, you want to add to this, just to just to add a little another way to look at it. I think that, you

know, if we expand our conception of what politics are, then we actually find that it does become extremely relevant to the average, Mohammed and Fatima not talking about, you know, being involved in activism per se. But, you know, there's, there's it's a two way street, the influence between the state, you know, the government, and the people's sort of ability to find the motivation to pray, right, there is work being done at the ideological level, right. So that, you know, we don't have to get a wise one over here and say, Well, this is cordoned off completely politics, you know, elections, state, government, statecraft, all that sort of stuff. No, like, even the idea, like,

Take Take, for example. Take, for example, young girls who believe that, you know, the, the Islamic, classical, scholarly tradition, right is problematic, because it's mostly populated by men. Right? That was a very, very politically formed sensibility to have. And it's something that actually is an obstacle and Imani obstacle that people have when they kind of fall into this sort of way of thinking. And there's there are what's that based off of that's based off of certain ideas about how power works, that are completely inimical to our tradition that believe that you can only represent justly, your identity group, right, and you have no ability to speak for, let alone care for or tend

to or take care of anybody outside of your identity group, which is completely false. Right. So there are some sort of things that are politically political, even though we're not used to thinking of them as political. J. And they shaped people's ability to Yeah, develop motivation to want to pray to how do they feel towards Islam? Do they feel that Islam is like, oh, my gosh, this, you know, it's just my culture, or it's what my parents do, or it's what I'm forced to do, or what, like, those are the things that cuz I agree with you, in principle, I agree, I do not. And I'm very careful about the audience that I'm speaking to, and I'm not talking about, you know, like, very

overtly what most people think of as political, you know, on the mimbar, every, every Friday, but I do try to address like, the doubts beneath the surface that are, in some sense, political, that make it hard for people to appreciate the Shediac that make it hard for people to actually, you know, Hamdulillah, those last World Cup, we saw how many people like love the OMA how much love of the OMA and solidarity with the OMA is alive. But there's some people where that's dead. There's some people in our OMA where the the solidarity and the love for each other is dead. And the love for the city is dead. They think that, you know, whatever we have now is the best system is, you know, progress

and enlightenment and all that. Right. So, so addressing those things, I do think is an appropriate thing that actually is going to unlock potential for even average. And I don't think anybody would disagree. And I believe I'm doing that the ways I'm doing it, I don't consider it political in the classical sense. You're right is political in the modern sense. But to me, these are in a positive way. These are modern issues that we have to discuss. And I do this all the time, in my own way. And I'm sure, you know, Southern man does it as well. So I think we're all in agreement here in this regard. Let's move on to I think one point that I, I would like to hear your thoughts on my third

point.

I feel that

these parties and movements have,

unfortunately, not given us a viable worked out mechanism of what exactly. It would mean, if we were to give them a chance at power.

I don't know what do you guys think about this? I agree. 100%. And I think that there's a very, very telltale reason why because almost no quote unquote Islamist political movement for the last 100 years has seriously critiqued modernity or the modern state at all.

They've basically attempted to take modern power the modern state and just slap Islamic sort of rules or Sharia laws on top of it. And I don't think that can possibly work. I think that Well, either way that while Halacha, the nation of 100% No, I think that the dissents exactly what I laid out in my in my initial sort of thing, I think that you can't do it without decentralized sort of early on that, that are economically and politically independent. You can't do it with the type of modern disciplinary power where you're up in people's lives and you're reshaping their subjectivities in a super invasive way, income taxes, all these sorts of things, like you said, I

don't think that's going to work. And I don't think that I think that we need to, I think that the movements that have to come about have to think rethink things on a much more fundamental level than the other political movements have done up until this point. Exactly. Shift the mind your comments on this. Yeah, I've been having spent many years in one of these

movements, I shouldn't have something to say.

I agree. But I also disagree a little bit

more important than that, perhaps I'm not sure this rubric or the criteria here, or the assumption behind the question is on the on the mark. What I mean by that is, regardless of what the result was, parties have done or not done.

The obligation, not on them obligation on the OMA. So if someone tried it, and did it wrong, they did it badly, let's say, for argument's sake,

we have a greater responsibility to do it right. Instead of kindness, otherwise, what law what's the implication there got it wrong. So therefore, it must not be possible. The other thing I would say also is I think we need an important

control mechanism here.

Control sort of thought, in this, in this thought experiment, if you think about the other, let's look at the other movements were focused on r&b and the sphere, and that type of approach to the revival of Alma, they should also be critically assessed as to where they've come, what Iraqi hearing is, in some of these have been around for 7080 years, some 50, some 60, some 40. And every decade that I've been around for a minute or three now at least, every time I speak to someone, they tell me that Muslims aren't really the most far from Islam. I'm thinking they're going, bro, you've been here for 70 years. So what are you doing?

That we're in a sort of pithy way. But

I think that contrast is very important so that we don't sort of

selectively take the wrong implication. Um, to the question itself, I think that the movements have given us they've done a lot of good work. But they have not. They're not hit the mark, they've they've fallen short, in significant ways. For number of reasons. One of I agree with him and Tom, that there's a there's a, an allergy, perhaps, I don't know,

a wrong understanding epistemically of how we need to engage foreign traditions. And so it's like, whistling was cathartic was intellectual knowledge is all wrong. We don't need to pay attention. We just need to study it when we need to refute it. And I think that's a that's an incorrect attitude, both in our tradition, classically, but also, today, ever them also knowledge production has come out of the west, whether we like it or not, we don't like it. But the last 300 years, that's where it's been, we have not done anything of much significance. And that's, that's a function of who's at the center of power. So there's a few thoughts there, but I think we need to keep on both. We need

to keep this sort of fear assessment across the board. I mean, Jay, what would an Islamic nation state look like in the modern world? You know, we've already wired a headlock we've all I don't know, if you read Andrew March as well, and another great person to read in this regard. I mean, there's just and then we saw this even when the the Brotherhood was running in Egypt, right? When issues are you going to start Jizya? Well, if you're gonna have to, or it can a Christian being at the prison? Like, how can you have a nation state in which everybody is supposed to be equal under the nation, right? And then you have the laws of Islam? And then how can a nation state be a type of

Khilafah? When that would mean, anybody in the world can just walk in and acquire citizenship? We're talking about a billion and a half people, not just one small ethnicity, a few million that might be able to do that somewhere the Middle East, we're talking about the Muslim ummah. I mean, and again, over and over again, I've spoken to a lot of these people and ask them very specific question I'd rather not publicize here but very specific, and they can't give me a straight answer. Because they haven't thought about these things. Because it's just a matter of if we have enough everything will be solved, bro think 10 steps ahead. We had a philosopher for 14 centuries and under it there was

good and bad. It's not as if there was never any evil there under it. We lost, you know, Andalus we lost Jenny, you know, philosophy and, and we got it in spite of the Khilafah I mean, I've said this all my father's and whatnot. So my humble suggestion to those that are so interested in that field. Go to the books and write thought papers give us you know, a scene

Mario's give us conceptual ideas of how this country would work and have discussions and learn from the mistakes of 10 years ago, when you were given power, you know, and you couldn't even hold it for what a year and a half, because you didn't have the infrastructure, you didn't have the independence, you know, superpowers far more powerful than you were playing you as pawns in a very vicious game. You were simply not politically savvy enough in this regard. So Allah was standing and it pains me because our hearts were with those people, you know, our hearts were those people. But in any event, I want to bring up two things before we go back. And both of you brought up the issue

of in Niger over the Felisa just for the record.

I'm not so sure that I would agree with that interpretation. I think you're both aware that this is a very contested interpretation. And in fact, had been Tamia was not too happy with this interpretation that Khalifa means political authority in the Java Khalifa. And so, in fact, a number of authority said that one should not understand it that way. Or even if it is, then it is subjective to the prophets, for example, you know, and whatnot like, yeah, that will do energy and agriculture. For example, right. So there is a classical, pre modern, nothing to do with state. And initially, there is a classical controversy about the meaning of in the geographer or the Khalifa.

So that should be pointed out. Also the verse data conveyed, and that's again, the way that I see it. These types of verses indicate, and the most explicit one is sort of the north and Latina in Cana, whom fell out of the UK almost sold out out there was the guy that will Amarula America, if you have power, you must do all of this. But I go back to my initial point, that should minorities, especially minorities, make this a priority amongst themselves. Yes, generic 45 for the OMA, we're all in agreement, but us living here in western lands, and we are not people have double standards. I want to say this very clearly. We don't have a secret agenda and a public agenda. That's not who

we are. We don't have private meetings, you know, amongst ourselves, and then we say something to the public. So brutally honest question, if minorities in America or England or France, you know, 10 15% 20% Muslim in Paris, right? If they were told, or they started to speak amongst themselves, a part of our agenda, a part of our, you know, Chaturvedi, a quartet, and Allah wants us to do this is to establish our version of laws in the society we live in. What would be the repercussions? Is this something that Shediac wants to have? Or is it better for us minorities to simply fight for our legal rights to be Muslim, and to preserve that which shall allow us to enter gender our salvation

will come at the level of gender, right? What we need to do to enter agenda, their salvation, a level is good enough, right? What we need to enter agenda we can do in a secular state, it's not good to be in an immoral state that we are in, it's not good to be in this hedonistic area. But within this land, we are able to carve out enough rebar that and rituals and good and hair and Dawa that Insha Allah, Allah will get us into gender, the flip is, the flip side is not the case, we can have an Ideal Muslim land. And within it, we're not necessarily going to be doing stuff to enter agenda. And more importantly, as minorities, are we going to make this a part of our agenda that we

want to influence society, you're talking about different types of power, any type of power? Is it our long term, explicit goal, that we want to enforce our laws on the rest of society? If that is the case, what are going to be the repercussions of the minorities living here? We need to think these things through because we are not double faced. We don't plot and secret Oh, my God, oh my god, Hola. Hola. Hey, am I kidding? You know, this is not a part of our methodology that we go into secret and have curveballs and then we say something in public. So for the record, I don't think it is a part of our Shediac to as minorities, I'm speaking from an art I'm not speaking was in Madrid,

as minorities to have this on our agenda. Rather, our clear cut agenda is to influence the hearts and minds of the people to embrace Islam. And if they decide later on, mashallah, they want to do anything good for them, but the explicit agenda, we live Islam, we preach Islam, we preserve Islam, that is the expert surgeon will love Warren.

If I can come here, I think this is probably this is good, because he's coming to maybe the core disagreement.

Or I should say you, you put out there three or four different points, but the third one about

what's what's requisite to get to Jannah.

In contrast with what's not that we probably would disagree, quite firmly. I think it is it is undergirded by

At what

technically are referred to as a atomistic, social ontology, what that means is a certain understanding of society where your base units are individuals, as you're saying, Okay, what does this individual need to get to Jana? Well, if he takes solace on the front line, if he takes on the front line boxes, in theory, of course, Allah decides your decision never, from what we know, he's he or she has done what was required. The problem with that is, if you affirm that logic, apart from the what I argue is a flawed social ontology. But if you affirm that logic, the same can and must for consistency be said about every other font.

So far, so again, this is where I think the comparison is always important. Where we deprioritize something but we're prioritizing another thing of a similar level. Let's talk about that lead.

Not not learning, not me learning what I need to fill my again, which is fine, but mainly are going to teach Hadith and or fall in the middle is the Universities of Islamic universities called Kiva.

No one ever says the front line, therefore, Kiva. So now I can say, Okay, well, Muhammad and father man, Khalid Zaid didn't really have to get involved in this. And I can say, well, that means for 90% of the amount we don't entirely okay. And not just that, I use that example, because we're all kind of involved in that. But every other 45 we don't win this. So so in my mind, the problem with this logic is, it's disconnecting the folder key fire from the foul line, whereas I think traditionally goes the opposite way, which is this, every individual has further iron, which they have to do, but, but they also have to contribute to the flow the key fire, otherwise, no one does them. And then

this is the point. Here's why. So how is the font we found is defined in the Bible Sacaton Belkin. But if no one does it, what happens?

Is that only those, it's everyone? Okay, yeah, there is a qualification of this data and the rest of it, but in principle, everyone sinful. So let me ask you, let me ask you bluntly, then, in your view, it is for K fire for the Muslims of a minority western land to aim to establish political dominance in that land.

I didn't make that qualification. So I think that's another problem in this in this way of framing the topic, which is to speak of minorities and not of the Ummah, I start on the basis of the OMA. And then we can speak about how different the different subsets of the OMA can contribute to that, given their situation, what is the OMA there is no disagreement for the fire for the Muslim majority Alliance, there is no disagreement, there is a fourth level of fourth key fire is far more when the potential is more when the in Kenya is more when the is to Torah is more. And so when you're living in a Muslim land, where ideally there should be a lot more people wanting to establish a higher

level of morality, a higher level of ethics and laws, right, your own in candy is supply increases, and therefore your level of fortify also increases. Right. And my point is, and I'm being very clear, here, it is not afford ki fire for those living in circumstances like our own to aim to make this an implicit or explicit, it could be an aspiration, I'm being very blunt here. I wish everybody converted to Islam, and I wish everybody wants to live according to stuff that's an aspiration, that's different, then we're gonna say, this is what we want to do. Because if I am challenged, what do you want, I'm going to say I want the freedom to be a Muslim, and I'm going to go to court for

that freedom. And I'm going to, you know, fight for those reasons. If you don't give me that freedom, I'm leaving this land, I'm not going to live in this kind of a kind of practice, you know, my Islam, that's what I'm going to be fighting for, you know, legally and whatnot. But as for this point of, and again, I'm being generic because you understand the sensitivities of wanting to establish a political base, you know, in the lands we live in, I say unequivocally it is not fortify upon us to do so. aspiration is different, and fortify is different. Our job here is to help the OMA no problem. Our job is to aid in a global area, no problem, but where we're living, no, because it

is suicide, political suicide for us as minorities to do so. And I always bring up not just Yanni, the Abyssinian Muslims, who clearly had no political aspirations, but frankly, the lived realities of all minorities since the beginning of Islamic history. Well, lo data. Yeah, great. So I think Matt Thompson, I was I was just actually going to try to clarify what I thought that you were arguing doctors, man was that you're talking if I understood you about not necessarily okay, maybe pharmacy failure to resurrect something that I see that's where I think that was the point. Maybe Dr. Osmond was saying maybe the Western Muslims can can

tribute to that maybe they can be the the intellectuals, maybe they can be this space of free scholarship, right where we don't get picked up and thrown into jail for what we write about. Right. And maybe that's one piece of the puzzle thinking as an OMA, that's what our part of the OMA can contribute. And who knows whether that was going to actually be, you know, established? If Did I understand you correctly? Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I wasn't talking about where it would come. And obviously, this is the thing, this is the principles and the method and theory and then you have to work out the strategic and the tactical components, which require a lot more effort. But I'd like to

disagree for another reason. Respectfully, of course shake yesterday is that I think that you're understating the urgency that we have to have with how our ability to attain salvation in the current secular space that we live in is being eroded day after day after day. Okay, because these things aren't static. Okay, look at now or 2023? Look at how far we've come in 10 years? Where are we at in 2013? Okay. 2013 was a completely different world when it came to sexuality when it came to gender when it came to all these sorts of things. And you know, as I as well, as I know, because you're in the messages, you talk to real Muslims, these are a problem, like, these are problems that

the Muslims are having, are these problems affecting the ability for Muslims to attain the agenda? Yes, they are. Where are these problems coming from? Okay, lots of places, yes, but part of it is that the way that the arrangement of the state is set up is that the state takes no strong moral stance on things. Okay. In America, I'll speak specifically for America, we have the political freedom to try to convince other people and to try to Yeah, stump for what we think is the best way. That's my freedom as an American, if you've got the Catholic over here, who wants to overturn Roe versus Wade, upon religious grounds, even and you've got the wing nut, you know, evangelical that

thinks that they're going to build some sort of Temple in Palestine, I can be, you know, you've got the Amish, who are still riding horses, and carriages, I can disagree. That's, that's what I'm saying.

Yes, well, I'm just trying to draw our attention to the we need to have more urgency in shifting and changing the political order. I do think that's true. I don't think that it means overthrowing anybody and I don't don't think that it necessarily means, you know, as sort of crude and confrontational way that that maybe you suggested, but I, I also don't think that we can just play polite minority, and wait around as our actually our subjectivities are being changed our understanding of what Islam has been changed, and our ability to attain to gender has been changed, nobody.

Nobody's

but for the record, you have raised a whole different topic, which I would love to have around to with. And that is, our involvement with the political system. I mean, we still have people who are saying a school for a ship to get involved, we still have people who don't understand what it means to be involved in the political field, which means you're going to have to compromise on the lesser good in order to repel the you know, the greater good, right. And here's the problem that comes assessments of greater and lesser goods vary from group to community, and person to person. And so if you're going to want to fight to this particular cause this moral marriage issue, for example,

you're going to have to overlook other issues that are problematic in order to fight this battle. Right. And, you know, perhaps a time will come. And dare I say 15 years ago, 20 years ago, there was that time where there was the notion that our civil rights are being eroded as Muslims in this land. And so for that timeframe, if we were to fight that battle, and ignore other battles, right, because we now have an actual existential threat of legitimate legislation, you remember, 22 states attempting to pass laws that are very clearly demarcating our civil liberties. So this becomes a different issue altogether, when to fight what battle, but I do think that we're all in agreement

here that we are not, you know, a political pacifist, we are activist in our role to protect our identities. But that is different than the claim that our ultimate goal is to rule over the land that is different than that claim. Because we are protecting our identity, this is encroaching in our identity. Right? So for example, why are we not

trying to ban alcohol? That is Omaha, and it is one of the biggest causes of car accidents and like deliver cancer, etc, etc. Who amongst us is coming together? There's probably still some groups that are trying to resurrect the 19th amendment. We could we could and that's the whys.

Why not? Right. That's, like go for it. I believe, you know, and this is like, again, like I can't speak for the political situation Australia, but in America, you know, you get to let your freak flag fly. And there is

is no minority that's excuse me, there is no majority that is a solid majority, you actually have a plurality of different types of minorities that believe wildly different things. And they each get to theoretically participate in this society where they get to either convince or maneuver or so I'm just saying it's like, let's make sure. And I'm not saying you're not saying this, but I want to emphasize, if that's the game that let's play the game, if we have a if we have an idea of what ideal society is like, and other religious groups have their ideas of what ideal society is like, why don't we also get to play politics and maneuver to establish our ideal society, because it's not

a game time, money, experience, energy is spent. That's why because our resources are limited. As a Muslim community. In America, we have limited people already in the game, we have limited time and bandwidth. So it's not just playing Monopoly, that we just spend an hour you're going to spend precious resources doing chasing a wild goose at this stage of the American game, alcohol, there's not going to be banned. We in America are less than 1%. So for us to get involved in this, it's fun. It's you think it's the hour good for you. Maybe there is some Dawa. And I'm not saying what you're doing is wrong. Good for you. But is that what the community needs to do? Even in the political

front? This is where I think we need to be a little bit more wise, I think there might be I think there might be a middle ground here.

Which is that, which also ties back to

essential difference, perhaps that

there's a difference between an intellectual work that and front alcohol and a political work that tries to bear now precisely? Yes, I think we all I think we all agree on the first part. However, I think there may be disagreement, because for some of us that intellectual work stops at a certain point. Whereas for others, I think it goes on. So for me, I would focus on alcohol as part of a certain way of life that we need to confront intellectually, because we have a different way of life that we believe is better last hour, but I think there's no cap, there's no limit on this. This for me then connects with because the way of life is secular liberal, right? secularism, liberalism,

capitalism,

intellectually and politically. So but not to overthrow or change. But I want to create that discourse to say we've got something better. Okay. And this ties into the last question about what the minorities in the West should be doing. That is the same discourse we need in the Muslim world, because the secular liberal capitalist framework is hegemonic, whatever. Okay. So our contribution then, is to further that discourse all over the world. And when we talk about in Kenny I agree with Shaka to your point from or solely perspective, but in Kenya, it's not a it's not that there are different aspects to it. There are certain aspects in which we have greater possibilities in the

West greater resources, greater freedom than people in Syria and Egypt and Pakistan. Right. So this is why I start on the base of the Ummah, we think, as an OMA, and then I decided, okay, what, obviously, the default would be to work for governance in the Muslim world, not in the West. But we can all contribute to to that. Whereas the difference is, particularly when you bring up example, I'm a senior because I agree, and I'm a senior, the Muslims were not, there was nothing political at all. No plan, no connection or nothing. There were there temporarily. But the difference is that because they had something, which was the muscle in Makkah going on, to which they were an

exception. The problem I have with people who bring up Abyssinia a lot, as an example is they don't have the awesome there's not a salon, it's just Abyssinia, right? All or it's Amis or we become members senior in Australia in the US. And there is an assumption that if there's going to be a market somewhere in the Muslim bubble, we don't know about that could happen, maybe it's going to move. That's that's I think then becomes a little frivolous in terms of a genuine assessment of what was going on this year. We need the month gap for other senior to make sense otherwise ever seen as an excuse for us not to get involved? And as you're aware as well. This is a very big solely debate

of the Sierra that to what level do we read in status quo as being the causes of what's going on? And there have been interpretations and I've read this myself that the Prophet system kept Abyssinia as a backup plan. That's why he kept Jaffa there until the seventh year of the hijra, right? Because, and again, this is an analysis is one reading of the Sierra where the reason why the process of them went to Medina for political power is because he wasn't given the freedom to worship Allah and to practice the rituals. Had he been given the freedom? Would he have then wanted political power? Or would he have been content simply fulfilling the account without persecution?

And a number of authorities have opined and it's an opinion and Allahu Adam, because in the other day, both sides are basing it on assumptions that if Medina were to because my brother offered his job, I mean, as I was existential for a month, they didn't know whether they make it

or not right? So what if there was a backup plan for the Muslims to have a place to at least worship Allah subhanho wa Taala and migrate to this is a theory that has been mentioned by not me people before me, you find it in the earlier should or have the sera books. So this notion of trying to mirror exactly every scene is like this and muckers like this Medina like this. I find that a little bit simplistic rather, I find it it is completely legit to look at over all the paradigms, it is permissible for Muslims to live as a minority when the alternative is persecution. And they may live there and persevere their fate. It's not ideal. The ideal is Medina, every we all agree on this,

right? Given the current world we live in, there is no Medina. And the majority of Muslim countries are dictatorships, where me and you would be in jail right now. And you know, that we would be being tortured right now, because of our stances that we have against those regimes and whatnot, we know this. And we thank Allah that in the lines we live in, we have the right to worship and to preach and to teach with ultimate freedom. So let us work on preserving these rights for ourselves and our children. And let us work on influencing as much as we can without jeopardizing those rights in an unwise manner. And this is again, my life and my work so far has been indicative of this whole lot

of data.

Yeah, I think

that's a good, that's a good summary of the agreement and the disagreement. Medina is the ideal, but I think there has to be

always at every point and attempt by the ALMA to work towards Medina.

I think it goes back really go back to that the whole discussion about the priority and whatnot. But I think we've covered that

in Sharla, so maybe concluding thoughts, and then we can wrap up Bismillah? Okay. This will start Tom, you go first.

I would say, oh, boy, concluding thoughts. I do think that at the most fundamental level, you know, Islam has so much to contribute to the space wherever you are. Okay. And I hesitate. And I'm wary of simply the the call to simply coexist and just simply preach and just simply work on, on test, kiya? Because I think, as I said before, I think it understates first of all, it's a missed opportunity, because Islam actually has a lot to, again, contribute and offer and show people a better way, when it comes to how to organize society, family life, etc, etc. And we're talking about persuasion, we're talking about, you know, convincing people and demonstrating and things like that.

But we can't underestimate. We can't underestimate the the ways in which

how things are going right now might actually be the end of our freedom to preach. Where is that? Where is our freedom coming from? Is our freedom coming from the secular liberal order? Maybe it is, but maybe if the secular liberal order is being taken to its utmost conclusion, right? And there's certain people in the United States that would like to define certain things within Islam as hate speech. Right? Maybe that's another conclusion of it, right? So I feel an urgency, I feel an urgency to, to carve out a space actively not passively, right to make sure that

we know that having some moral sort of worldview is something that is going to be respected is something that is going to be able to be heard in our society. And also, yes, like trying to convince and, and, and the last point, and I and we referenced this as well, I do think that people sell the West short, and I think that one of the ways that Western Muslims can contribute to the Ummah, is being that space of intellectual power, where we have, we have the freedoms that other people don't have. We have Institute, we have the ability to make walks, we have the ability to make institutions, we have the ability to say what we want and research what we want, why aren't we

taking advantage of it and putting it to the to the service of the OMA I think that's a very, very important project going forward. Is that Calaca?

I think we, I think we occupy a very important historical moment,

in which there's a need to fairly and automatically if I can assess where we're at. I think it's fair to say as we've said today that the Islamist movements for one of a better category,

whilst having contributed a lot I don't want to deny that have come to a wall or didn't and have in many of the important respects of what they went out to do have failed. But I would add, so have the apolitical