Islamic Financing Mortgages With Dr. Hatem Al-Haj

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said Hamada come rahmatullah wa barakato Alhamdulillah wa salatu salam ala Rasulillah, who either he will be here one while the hammer bad. So we are well aware that one of the biggest issues of consternation of controversy between the American Muslim community frankly, the Western Muslim community, is the issue of purchasing a house and the mechanisms for doing so, whether one is allowed to avail oneself to the conventional mortgages, or whether it is permissible to go to the Islamic banking or is it even Islamic these particular banking systems that are out there the various enterprises that are giving these Islamic mortgages? Are they truly Islamic and halal or

not? And I've been bombarded as all of the students of knowledge and scholars have been for so long, and I've been delaying giving a full and detailed response. And today inshallah Tada, we will begin with a very deep and intensive dialogue. And I have with me joining me today, somebody whom I consider to be not just a friend, but a mentor, and that is Dr. Hatem, Alhaji Dr. Hatem al Hajj before I asked him to speak, I have to introduce him, and I'm sorry to be a little bit praising here so maybe doctor has him you can put some some of your plugs on the shallow to either, but I consider Dr. Hatem and Hajj to be one of the moderators, one of the sources of Islamic law and fatawa in this

country. And on a personal note, when I myself, I'm wondering about something I want to bounce ideas off of somebody when I don't really know myself which direction to go about a filter issue or something than the first person that I text is actually Dr. Hatem and hedge. And of course, Dr. Ataman hedge isn't just a shareholder, an alum. He's also board certified in pediatric and pediatrics by the American Board of pediatric pediatric so he's a practicing doctor as well. He has a PhD in comparative filk from Lebanon from Virginia University. And he's also done an MA in Chetty out from the American Open University, and he's a professor, assistant professor in the Department

of the College of Islamic Studies at Mischka University. And, of course, he's also one of the pillars of ABA, the American Muslim jurists Association. And so I welcome Dr. Hatem al Hajj, Sarah was the co chair

for the introduction, I don't deserve it and it is, you know, out of your humbleness, I can laugh at them. But

you know, I just wanted to say that I don't deserve it.

To Allah, we will have fruitful discussion today. This is a very complicated issue. And I will not might consume my reluctance to talk about this subject, because it's an I know of so many slaughters throughout the Muslim world, that are extremely reluctant to talk about this subject.

Because, as you are well aware that it's very complicated.

The distance between the reality and what we aspire to, seems to be, like large.

We're trying as much as we can. We're trying not to be cynical. But we're trying also not to be naive. And that balance is very hard to strike. From our last one, I thought I guide our tongues in our hearts. So here kinda you know one of the reasons I'll be honest that I've been very hesitant to speak about this issue. And anybody who's asked me, you know, for the last few years I keep pointing in sha Allah will release something soon, is that I feel that this is a very sensitive topic, and anybody who gives a fatwa is going to have to bear the responsibility of that fatwa. And it is something that I've been very cautious about as you user for saying this is a very, very big issue.

It's not a trivial matter. And one is just cognizant of the difficulties, as you said, between balancing between the needs of the Muslim community, and between the great sin of interest and it's another very easy and delicate balance. So I completely share with you the sentiment of the seriousness of this matter and ask Allah Subhana Allah to Allah to guide all of us to that which is pleasing, and to forgive any mistake that we might make. So just before we jump into the issue of mortgages and whatnot, do you have any overall comment about the modern field of Islamic finance? I know it is one of your speciality So overall, what what do you have anything you'd like to say about

the new field of Islamic finance?

Well,

then I

Even itself Islamic finance, I guess if we're talking about providing funds for business ventures, then yes, Islam, Islamic finance would not be oxymoronic in this case, because we have the Modaraba, which is profit sharing, we have different kinds of partnerships, like I now like foot rain partnership and other types of partnerships that were meant to provide funds for business ventures. But when it comes to providing funds for a purchase of an item for use or consumption, like a house, car, etc, then I if the name itself or the tension within the name is quite obvious, because providing funds for someone to purchase a an item, an object for use for consumption is in Islam is

a benevolent act. It's called the part of the Hudson, it's a goodly loan.

And it no no profit is expected to be made out of this. But nowadays, it is not possible, basically, to fulfill the needs of all the people

because of how the world has become because the expectations and the needs. And I don't want to be harsh on the people also and make it all about expectations or extravagance, there are needs that need to be fulfilled, and we live within a financial system a global financial system that is insensitive to and inconsiderate of our values, not because they have to not because there is constant conspiracy or not because they're legislate evil, and they want basically to propose our values, but because they they just not don't share our values. And we don't have the size of that Islamic finance. So,

you know, in 2010, it was worth about $1.3 trillion. That may sound like a big number, but it is actually not that big. I heard that that this is half of what a conventional bank, we, you know, one of the largest conventional banks would would be worse.

Just one bank. So

the idea here is we are Islamic finance, is trying to basically to instrumentalize some of the old contracts that we had, in a completely new environment and within a global financial system that is not particularly

accommodating of our laws for our values. So that's the difficulty.

You know, we ask Allah subhanaw taala to, to make it easy for the people who embark on this task and embark on the task of

you know, adapting these contracts to modern finance.

I mean, so, chef now for our viewers, again, just a very, you know, brief,

basic point of film, is that in our Sharia giving somebody alone is never meant to generate profit, in fact, in the authentic hadith and the Sunnah, and our Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam said that whoever gives somebody a card has ended alone, shall get half of that money as a reward of giving sadaqa. So if you gave 10,000 loan, and you got 10,000, back, Allah will reward you 5000 As if you gave sadaqa to somebody. So this is the purposes that in Islamic Sharia are, in fact, giving somebody called Hassan, so that's why it's called called Hasina, a good loan, it's a loan from the heart, you give somebody something that is a genuine good deed, you expect Allah to reward you,

obviously, the modern notion of capitalism of the entire global finance, it is not based on this principle. And so Islamic finance, specifically and really Islamic economics, modern Islamic economics, it's actually a fascinating field. And, you know, as the sharks said, and we really should we feel sympathetic for the people involved, they're trying to make the best of a very, very different paradigm, the Sharia. And his paradigm is so different than the modern notions of the bank and of giving usurious loans. And of course, Muslims, all of us are connected to the modern world, we cannot live in an isolated bubble. So we have to make the best of a very difficult situation. So

with that, Shekinah why don't I ask you the setup setting up the entire stage here is that can you explain to us the Islamic notion of Riba? And very briefly is the Western notion of interest this

same or different than the Islamic notion of Riba.

Okay, from the law well by normal social normal, you know, interest is more general than Riba in a sense and robber is more general than interest in a sense. So riba linguistically means increase. And then Islam they're like three different types of rubber.

So, we have ribbon a car, which is deferment and we have rebellion, which is exchange the river of exchange and I may, you know, clarify what this means. And then we have ripplefold which is very well of increase

or you may say that we have like, rebel corrode, which is the labor of loans and rebel blue or which is the labor of sales. Revenue Growth is basically when you give a loan and you expect a higher return on this loan like a profit to be made.

When you are paid back,

that is basically a revenue growth, it is increase.

The increase is

a result of the deferment of the payment. And in riba LBO it's completely different, and that's why the concept of Riba is much larger than simply interest because interest will accrue on the loan due to the deferment that is revenue last year or rate of deferment. But then we have the concept of revenue or which is River in sales, and revenue and sales results from

exchanging two items that are usually as items that were mentioned in one Hadith, Addis Ababa summit for the Prophet sallallahu Sallam mentioned both silver, wheat, barley, dates and salt. He mentioned six items. And he said that you know and that hadith is long, but the Prophet SAW Selim said that was that was central to the scepter with horrible burrowed was Shahrukh Shire or Tamra with tongue, but miserable misery and misery so and so, instead of heavy loss not severe okay for Machito in Canada and the Romans that was the other.

So, the Prophet sallallahu sallam said that you know these items when when gold is paid for by gold, silver for silver,

sweet for wheat, barley for barley dates for dates and sold for sold as to be like for like equal for equal.

And if you know and if they are of different times, then you could sit you could tell us as much as you want like with an increase in the amount as long as it is hand to hand or or immediate exchange

and then whoever offers an increase or ask for an increase that has committed Raber now, so we have two different types of here of ribber that are basically implied in this hadith one of them is level five which is increase. So when you trade for instance wheat for wheat, that has to be like for like equal for equal hand to hand. When you treat wheat for barley, it does not have to be equal for equal but it has to be hand to hand immediate exchange. When you treat well when you trade I'm sorry, when you trade gold for silver or silver for gold.

They don't have to be equal for equal but they have to be entered hand to hand and then gold and wheat. They don't have to be either. So there could be different there could be increased because they belong to two different groups. So Reber in that sense, is a very complicated matter. It is not only

interest that accrues on a loan because of the deferment, which is the common form of riba that comes to mind when Riba is mentioned. But there is a whole genre of rebel view or river of sales product that is divided into two types fabric which is increase and exchange which is yet delivered yet. So rubber is much more general than interest. But

in a sense,

when people talk about interest, when we when we when when people translate right back to usury, usury also is

spreads a problematic translation because usury is exorbitant interest. Riba is not only exorbitant interest, Riba is any interest, but any interest that accrues on a loan, any interest that accrues on a loan. But if I say to you, if you ask, if you ask me for my laptop, and I sell you my laptop,

for like, let's say $500, and you say I don't have the money,

can we defer the payments until the next month? And then I tell you, Okay, if you will pay me next month, or if you will pay me installments over three or four for six months, then it is not $500 I will sell you the laptop for $700 to be paid over six months

is that interest? Well, some people could say that I added interest, but now I add this is a commodity for price. And I am not basically this is not alone, this is a sale. So, can I add the time value to the price in a sale? Yes, can I calculate if I if I calculate this, you know, on the basis of some formula in my mind, then I just say 7% You know at a rate of 7%. And I can't even tell you how I calculated that is called interest, but that is not haram that is my trip, I am selling you a my laptop and I am adding the time value not in a loan transaction. But in a sale transaction.

As long as we agree on one final version of the country, certainly we cannot keep it open ended, where I tell you the price is 500. Now with a 7% interest. So if you pay over one year, it is less or two years, it's that like if we finalize the contract and we have one form of contract, now, the laptop will be for 700 over six months regardless of how I arrived at this number and regardless of whether I will tell you how I arrived or not, this is a permissible transaction and it is not usually obvious. So to continue with for Shekinah basically what can be said here is that Riba the Islamic term is broader generally speaking than the Western notion of interest because of a debt.

And in our Shetty, our there is a Hadith and data Coatney it is a weak Hadith, but the concept is there. It is reported that the process of said but it is a weak hadith is most likely similar to a companion that could look hotter than Jeremiah and fat and for whatever every single loan that generates any type of any type of benefit. It is considered to be riba so when you stipulate in a loan that you're going to get a benefit from that loan, the majority of our scholars would consider that to be a type of Riba. Therefore, the interest that you know, we people in this in this part of the world charged when they give a loan that is definitely a type of riba by the explicit text of

the Hadith. And before I move on as well, I'd like to point out that there is no question that Riba is one of the major sins in our religion, Allah azza wa jal explicitly mentions in the Quran that whoever takes the debate it is as if he is declaring war against Allah and His messenger. That having been said, we need to be a little bit careful and accurate. There is a genre of Hadith that seems to equate riba with arugula. Yandi doing Zina with one's Maha Mo is one sister, a mother Oh, the villa. And these are Hadith it is true that some of our later scholars consider them to be Hussen. But the reality is that the majority of our scholars, including the ones that are really

more reputable in this field, have no claim, even though Josiane is molded to it, but it'd be Hatem. They all said that any of these narrations that seem to link the sins of riba with doing Zina with one of your Maha roms all of this is from the the basically the the storytellers it's not from the Prophet salallahu Alaihe Salam, we don't need that genre of Hadith. We have enough to tell us that Riba is a very, very major sin. But next question Shoshana is that if you look at the text of the Quran, Allah azza wa jal always criticizes coluna Riba, those that are eating Riba. And in some of them had hubs as you're aware, there is this distinction made between the sin of charging interest

versus the sin of paying interest. And so some mud hubs and some scholars, they differentiate and they say that the sin of charging is more than the sin

of having being forced to pay as well in the Hadith in Sahih, Muslim and others that our prophets have said that the one who gives it and the one who takes it and the one who witnesses and the tribe, the one who writes the contract, they're all the same. So what is how do we understand the shahada is the sin of charging interest, always the same as the sin of being forced to to pay it?

Also concur with you on the genre of a hadith talk about that, actually not only equate riba to Xena but make riba worse than 36 acts of Zina or you know, making Zina with one's

mother or the villa.

I used to actually

I used to sort of accept the one of the one version of the Saudis because of the authentication option for Bernie but then

I had I have a lot of difficulty justifying the Hadith, the meaning of the Hadith myself, and I just was forcing myself to accept it. And I tried to figure out using sort of, like all my, like my sort of limited capacity to justify it somehow. But then, as you said, most of the scholars most of the erudite Hadith scholars have considered the whole genre Hadees in this regard, weak, not traceable to the Prophet sallallahu sendible.

Zen you have the Hadith, Jabra Muslim that you mentioned, where the Prophet sallallahu sallam said, you know, a lot of low academic killer who

I'm Carla Ahimsa May Allah occurs to the one who devours river or consumable and the one who feeds them, the one who takes it gives it and the one who takes it and the two scribes are in two witnesses and the scribe and he said that they are equal, I believe that you know, I believe in the position of the scholars who said that they are equal in being partners in crime in a sense, so that had they not all done this, like had you know, do not help each other doing this the grind the crime, needed, all of those sorts of members.

But, that is why they are equal because they, their participation in this crime was needed for the crime to be committed. Some of the scholars also said they are equal in the sense that they are equal in us that is Milan, blah, blah. McDarrah is, so they are equal in in in being sinful, not in the magnitude of the sin. So in other words, they're they're all sinful. That's what the Prophet sallallahu Sallam meant to say, not equally sinful,

in the sense of the magnitude of the sin itself.

Some would say that sometimes the Prophet sallallahu Sallam will talk about the word of you know if you believe that this is also an authentic tradition if

they were saying in the masjid after Salatin soccer for instance, until the sunrises and then you pray to rock eyes. So you have a word of a hug Jana hombre tam Matamata my complete hajj and umrah and

so it is difficult you know like because ha ha Jin Umrah there is so much that you do and we know that you weren't had an hombre and you know know the. So, some people may say that it is encourage people and some people may say that now we will take it as the Prophet sallallahu sallam said but in ombre there is so much more you do than the basically had an hombre So ultimately it is not going to be the same, and certainly the exploiter and the exploited if the exploitation of people as one of the major analysts for the major causes of the prohibition of riba or wisdoms of the prohibition of labor, you cannot

hold equal the exploiter and exploited there's got to be a difference in sin.

Precise, precisely, Xochimilco, Shere Khan you know, I remember when you were speaking it reminded me something that I heard from our we shared heaven Earth, I mean Allah Hummel. He said to us in one of his lessons, he complained of the and this is back in the 90s. He complained of the rising trend of vahi via Hadiya via prism of a literalism that you just take a hadith and you don't really understand the filter behind it, and he decried this new trend.

That was, you know, a rising in that timeframe. And as you pointed out, you're gonna this hadith. Generally speaking pretty much you know the majority of the shura and the fuqaha, they have understood it in a manner as you correctly pointed out that there is no way that the one who charges interest of lumen what would one and wanting to increase his wealth, there is no way that the sin of that person is going to be the same technically, as the son of the one who is, you know, in a very difficult situation and dire circumstances or even in a how to is not necessarily the rulers we're going to come to, and he's kind of, you know, forced because of the the lifestyle or the pressures

of the world that he's living in to, you know, give an amount of interest, they cannot be the same based upon many other principles of the Sharia. So we don't just find one Hadith and then use it to Trump all the verses and all of the other Hadith rather, we form a narrative that takes everything into account. And the fact that for example, the Quran always criticizes those who eat Riba and also that we have other a hadith Lovato, wala Dorado and other notions of this nature. So it is definitely, you know, safe to say that a person who might be forced to give ribeye because of certain circumstances may Allah you know, protect and forgive all of us that there is no way that

that sin would be the if it is even a sin would be anywhere near the sin of the one who is willingly for no reason other than greed, charging riba on a loan that he gives somebody. So share kind of the next question that I have for you is that as you're aware, there are some voices in our times that claim that the conventional mortgage, the standard mortgage that is practiced, or that is, you know, people avail themselves to in America, that it does not constitute a type of Islamic Riba. And they have the reasons for saying so that the bank owns it, it doesn't give an actual cause that is not an actual riba loan, and they have the reasons for saying so. What is your position is a mortgage, an

example of Islamic Riba?

The mortgage is certainly an example of Islamic Ribba.

What happens in a conventional mortgage is that the bank gives you

the money to purchase the house and gets back more over time. That's exactly you know, that's river, there is no merchandise here, so that the bank acquires and sells to you, it is basically exchanging money for money was deferment and exchange for an increase or a profit on the investment return on the investment. So that's, that's River

from the Islamic perspective, and I am aware of the scholars who

are trying to say that basically, you know, because you have, it is not

one group of scholars saying the same thing, you have different groups, and some of them are saying that, you know, to deposit money in the bank is now Triberr, because the banking system is so advanced, and they have their own calculations and the investors money, because they are capable of forecasting the profit that they will make, they can tell you exactly how much profit you'll be making, and so on and so forth. But there is another group of scholars who are actually trying to go back all the way and deconstruct the notion of rebar in modern times, particularly after Nixon and Nixon unlinked. The currency the American currency, which is a massive sea in the world, from the

gold reserve and abandoned the gold standard, which started from the time of Roosevelt, but was completed by Nixon

was started during the Great Depression, and now the currency is unlinked to the gold reserve. So some of the scholars are saying, you know, what proof do you have that? Basically, the dollars and sterling pounds and euros or US aureus items,

are you likening them to gold and silver, why are you likening them to gold and silver? And then we start getting into technicalities, and there are three different that you know, even when it comes to Islamic financing, even what comes to mind when you're trying to provide an Islamic product, there is a genuine, genuine solutions, genuine alternatives that are philosophically different and ideologically different from the congenic in conventional products, and there are technical differences. You're trying to provide a product that is technically different, but function

At the same, or you're basically not even trying to provide a product that's technically different, but you are trying to rhetorically

basically convince the masses that your product is actually Sharia compliant without it even being technically different from the the products that we have on the market or the conventional products. The same we can say about the scholars that are trying to basically say that there is no rubber anymore, unless unless it is gold for gold. But there is basically rip anymore. And in this case, you could say well, you know, the end of riba or the cause behind the prohibition and exchanging gold for gold and gold, for silver and so on and so forth is that they are measured by weight and that would be the Hanafi Hanbury position.

But But according to the magic isn't shafa is the reason behind

the prohibition of riba and gold and silver is that they are currencies as an as man, his he hear here, the problem here is that if you actually say, Well, I'm one of your somebody, and I believe that the reason behind the prohibition is Wait, then we will be circumventing the objectives of Sharia was technicalities.

You know, and the technicality here is not simply sly maneuvering or deceptive legal devices, you're actually talking about to mazahub out of four, but it's still a technicality, because if you look at it functionally, philosophically,

then we will not have river anymore. And then we will create problems for the cat as well.

The limited River, if you're not, you're going to be saying about dollars and pounds and euros and reacts and so on, cannot be likened to,

to gold and silver, then you're not going to only we're not going to only have problems in the chapters of Riba. But we will also be having a lot of problems in zakat as well, precisely so Shekinah we're in full agreement that those small minority of voices with utmost respect to them who claim that mortgages are simply not even an example of riba that they really don't seem to be coming from a solid background. And we both agree that the conventional mortgage is in fact a type of Riba. Now, let's now get to the the the juicy stuff here, we agree that the mortgage loan is a type of riba loan, the question arises, under what circumstances would this be permissible, we're all aware

Shahana that for the last 30 years or more, there has been an ongoing debate amongst our scholarly class, one side of which allows a conventional mortgage with a list of reasonable conditions it must be the house that you live in, you cannot afford the you know, the alternatives, meaning you cannot just purchase the house by cash. You don't do this for business. And of course, you have some very, very well respected jurist, you know, the shelter and your dog is, of course, the most famous example. But it's not just him. I mean, the European Council prefers to photo and research in 1999, by a large majority, if not unanimous, I forgot they voted. They also gave a fatwa and disregard the

number of scholars that say that a conventional mortgage just straight out from the bank, if you're living in the West End in your middle class, basically, you're not a millionaire, you can't just afford it by by one checker. So what not that they say that it is a type of need, not a type of voter or necessity, but a type of need. And they have their endless without getting into the the reasons and the causes, because again, that's a bit too advanced for our, you know, a conversation here. But just without getting into all of the details of why they're saying this, what is your Frank assessment, your own personal opinion, that is it permissible for the Muslim living in the

West to obtain a conventional mortgage? And also, what is your advice to the lay Muslim when he sees you know, Chef Qaradawi, and these great orlimar on one side, and then on the other side, also, great aroma. So part A and part B, if you want to follow for the

party is is is easy, because

I would have to say two things, you know,

I'm a member of Amgen at Amgen, we you know, our position on this issue is clear that conventional mortgage is not permissible except in the case of borrower I'm not had accepted or not had and so,

you know, the senior scholars of the European Council the they felt that there is a harder and they felt that there is like a hijama

And they basically allowed

a conventional mortgage, but they allowed it, if there is no Islamic alternative, and since we have somewhat

you know, an Islamic alternative now, then we all are in agreement that you should first seek the Islamic alternative

that that is available for people in the US and in Europe as well. So, that at the time they allow this there was no Islamic alternative.

And these, I do remember that they clearly stated that as long as there is no Islamic alternative then it would be allowable for people to to obtain a conventional mortgage, I would say that let us basically say that this one should be addressed on one by one basis, the person who does not have access to an Islamic mortgage and feels that he has some type of Aurora or harder that he needs to ask a scholar about this and then go by their fatwah.

As for part B, you know, you know that the the

it's a complex or complicated question and I would just say that that the two important pieces of advice here are one.

Membership found he said Adam, honestly Munna no minister, Ballina, Minister Bennett levels are not Rasulillah as

the EU Muslims unanimously agree that to whomever the Sunnah has become clear, it is not permissible for them to leave it for the statement of any scholar. Now, I can almost in certain cases,

things could be clearer. In many cases, you may not be able to discern, you may not be able to understand the rationale behind the fact was of the salaries but when it is clear to you that the intent of Allah and His Messenger is to prohibit or to allow something given the statement of salary will not save you if it if you feel in your heart that you're quite confident that this is what Allah and His messenger had wanted of you. The second thing is the hadith of wabi sabi Mehrabad which is safty kind of back

and bedroom Atma and not enough Sweetman.

While Espoma, Hakka Nevsky, what erotica for some way in Africanus, but after so consult your heart when you know the practice was unacceptable beside consult your heart righteousness is that with which you feel comfortable or the heart feels tranquil and the soul feels comfortable, and it's more sin is what wavers in your chest and causes discomfort in your press.

Regardless of how many factors or regardless of how many times that people have given you, their legal counsel or their fatwa. So,

having said this, if it is if your heart feels uncomfortable, then I would tell you listen to your heart. And I would I would say in general, I would say in general, one should try as much as they can to exercise water,

you know, consciousness Scroop philosophy, religious group velocity for being cautious being careful. But when there is a particular you know, issue that causes you hardship, when as there is a particular matter, particular issue that causes your hardship, and you've got two different opinions from two different scholars one is easier and one is more difficult. And it is not clear to you what Allah had what Allah wanted of you on this particular respect.

And you're, you know, there you just can't understand the rationale behind the two fatwas, it is okay to take the easier route.

There's not saying that you're going to be doing this all the time, you're going to be scanning all the facts

in the world and picking out all the easier Fidel but I am saying that if you come across or encounter a matter that is causing you hardship and different fats that you hear different fatawa and some are easier and some are harder, it is okay in this case, to take the easier j and so to kind of to summarize then that the position of Chicago Law we in the European Council, we respect it, and it is coming from a legitimate paradigm. We are not dismissing it at all it is a legitimate fatwa. However, I think the both of us are in a very similar wavelength that we don't endorse that

Furthermore, unconditionally, rather, only if there is no alternative. And if the person circumstances are specifically in a pretty difficult situation, perhaps in that particular exceptional scenario, but as a default as a norm, the both of us are very hesitant to open the store. Sharon, I want to add here though, one of my dear mentors as well. And I mentioned his name because his YouTube clip went viral. But 10s of 1000s, maybe hundreds of 1000s of people saw it. A few months ago, he released a short video about mortgages. Dr. alcanada, we I'm sure you're aware of him in a great Adam Schiff. And he said that when it comes to food and drink, the Haram will never

become Halal unless it is the rural life and death. However, he said when it comes to finances and financial matters, he says, generally speaking, the Haram becomes halal, not at the level of Bowdabra. But at the level of Hajah are a general need now for our viewers in Islamic law matters are divided into those who react and had hijacked into ICD 10. So Balraj is like you needed your URL. So you're gonna die food, water, drink air hija, it's something that makes life you know, livable, if you don't have it, you're not going to die. But it just makes life very difficult. And then to Senia is, of course, the only something that makes life luxurious and nice, but you don't

even need it. And his point was that, for example, insurance, for example, car insurance, it's not the Aurora, but it is a hedge, if you could get by, you're not gonna die if you don't have car insurance, but it's a Hajah. And he gave other examples from the economic field as well. And then he said that most of our scholars understand this when it comes to most of the transactions, that there's a Hajah. And so they'll overlook yet when it comes to mortgages, he says that the Hajra might even be even more. So for example, you want to have a house in the district that your children go to school to, and it's a good school, or you want to get a house that is close to the mystery

that we want to get a house that is close to your parents, for example, that is a bigger hedge than many of the other transactional hijacked that many of our scholars allow, you know, they they allow certain concessions for so he was very clear in this regard. And he of course endorsed the European Council of fatwa that the default ruling for them would be that the average Muslim in the West would be allowed to take a mortgage because he said it is a hijab, and because of hijab are allowed to be you're allowed some laxity when it comes to financial issues, your your comments and thoughts about the Shekinah.

It is very complicated. And certainly I respect

that we agreed the crease collar, I just wanted to say that they're not all equal, you know, they're not created equal. Different sins are different.

When it comes to insurance,

insured insurance is basically prohibited because of another and gutter, which is speaking.

relation on doors thinking due to uncertainty and ambiguity, is a genre of sins, or sort of Wuhan effect Mahabharat, prohibited transactions, the whole genre of these prohibited transactions. There are many exceptions in the Sharia where our hasn't been allowed by the Sharia, some degree of error has been allowed by the Sharia, some degree of error has been allowed by the Sharia for like needs for various needs. But when it comes to Riba in particular, rebar and water are not the same, so that is why, generally speaking, if if we're talking about the firearm,

or we're talking about it sort of it's clauses in the contract, that are not compliant, then certainly had an invalid or they both will, they will both be operative here, in in making concessions in making concessions, but when it comes to the clear cut river, you know, when it comes to ribbon, see the agreed upon River, the clear cut river

is then this is where we say that it is only the euro and not the Hajra

that will allow concessions, having said that, we you know I understand that that there is like a you know, that someone can argue about someone can also say that river is not prohibited

in and of itself. It is probably because of what what it leads to, as to evil not that it is evil in and of itself, but it is a means evil. And why are you creating that difference between Riba and someone can also say that the Prophet sallallahu Sallam allowed some degree of riba NL ri, which is basically the exchange

dry dates for right dates on the palm trees. And certainly there are different kinds of rubber combined in this transit. But he allowed it for had another aura to had. People wanted to eat fresh dates, I mean, the half the dried, they just don't like they're gonna die. But they wanted to eat fresh slate. So he recognized the need for fresh states and he allowed us so I understand that there is like it is it is not completely cut and dry. But But what what we're trying to say is that there has been

a, like close to consensus of the contemporary Muslim scholars, that river is a category that is higher in prohibition. I mean, it's quite obvious that the previous all of the

above trip are quite obvious. So they are saying that this is a category that is different from horror or undue risk taking. That's why they happen a lot more permissive in things like insurance than they were in clear country.

So my mom knows best. Excellent. So once again,

once again, the de facto authority shift as well as well, definitely coming from the very solid paradigm definitely great will soon and you can make an argument. But as is clear, you respectfully disagree because of a very, very technical point, which is actually not that technical terms, it just it is that the gravity of the sin of Riba is a totally different caliber, if you like then the other issues that the Sharia might have overlooked when it comes to other financial matters. So because of this, you are not comfortable opening the door. And that's a very valid paradigm play. If you know, here's what I wanted to also just answer a few if you don't, I just wanted to say that

many of the scholars are saying this because of a different concept of like, there is another layer of complexity here which is a pattern that the public need and that is some scholars are being more permissive and the amendment Duany invoke the assay or the acid Oma.

He talks about this and he talks about you know, let us say, you know that fascinated like acid COLA that will be you know, means livelihood become so difficult Halal means livelihood become so rare and scarce and difficult, what

are the Haram that haram prevails on Earth?

And then he said something that is very interesting, he said that, you know, it is not far fetched to say that this is the case in our times in his century.

Because then it is not possible for us, it is not possible for us, Hamden, Nancy Allen in Fairfield and equality Atari and in business, it is not possible for us demand that people to basically refrain from sustenance or abstain from sustaining themselves and, you know, clothing themselves and so on and so forth. And then he continued, and this this is like, you know, he continued to talk about different examples, where it will not be only for the Rura, but forehead, where the concessions will be made not only for the wrath, but for hideout. And he mentioned that if the Muslims limit themselves during those times if the Muslims limit themselves to Dharwad that was the

ability the OMA as a as an omen. So that is also another

reason why I do not condemn the other photographer I just disagree with without condemnation, because I do understand that there are different,

you know, takes on this matter, and I respect all the scholars on there, thanks. As long as they use proper school and proper, Mr. Daughters. She's up Malaysian and again, I'd like to underscore this point on what Dr. Hatem said, especially for our viewers, is that all too often we find some of our students may Allah azza wa jal, you know, guide them and grant them more wisdom. They are so overzealous in their remarks about great odema That they disagree with, and they don't understand that in fact, those rules there also are solid they wouldn't be I mean, if they had so that are completely whacked out or far left field, they're coming from a solid paradigm and actually, you

know, if you listen to Dr hat and carefully Subhanallah what a generous spirit of Dr. Had him he actually gave more arguments, even though he doesn't agree with it, right? And he's saying I see where they're coming from. So this is the spirit that I wish all of us have is that utmost respect. I respectfully disagree with their fatawa they have the paradigm correct they have they also have valid but it is a gray area and they are prioritizing certain things. We are prioritizing other things. So what happened the doctor hadn't were exactly on the same wavelength here.

I have three questions left, but these are the zoom and the hotel. So now, so now, we've spoken about general mortgages. Let us get to the issue of the Islamic mortgages that is the conventional name that is given to them. And before I ask you the question, let me set it up for our audience and viewers. A brief summary is warranted here, that the Islamic companies that offer Sharia compliant loans, basically, I'm calling it an Islamic mortgage, because that's some of the terms that is used, but it's called a Sharia compliant loan. There are a number of models that these companies use, three of them are the most famous, they're not the only but these are the most the most utilized.

The first of them is called the murabaha with a promise to pay, and what that is is the company buys the house and then sells you the house back in installments for a profit. Okay, so this is the murabaha

Manoir to be shot with a promise to pay this is the first model that is used the second model which is perhaps the most common in North America, and that is an mashallah con with an AKA Santa Hebei, turmeric, that's a diminishing partnership that eventually ends with you owning the property. And in the second model, the the Islamic company purchases the house along with you, you are both owning the house and you enter into a partnership. And the the percentage of ownership slowly diminishes as you keep on paying the monthly installment. And you pay the same amount. But a portion of that goes back to the loan, and a portion of that goes to the rent and the proportion of loan versus rent, it

continues to change as the years go on, until finally you have paid off the entire loan and the rent. And then the house is your so this is called the diminishing partnership model. And we'll see how that goes on with anarchism. And then the third model which is used by one or two companies here in North America, and that is the Ijarah rent to own. And that is when the Islamic company the Sharia compliant quote unquote company that it'll ask you to get a conventional loan, and then it'll purchase the house off of the bank and then resell it to you in installments along with a rental agreement. So these are the three main conceptual mechanisms number one murabaha with the promise to

buy. Number two is the diminishing partnership. And number three, the Ijarah rent to own. For now, the question I want to ask you, Dr. Hatem, let's leave aside the real contracts that exist with these companies. Let's talk conceptually speaking, if we could have an ideal contract that is Morava with promise to buy, number one, number two, the diminishing partnership and number three Ijarah rent to own, what is your personal verdict, conceptually speaking, for an ideal contract, and all of these three categories Bismillah.

Mr. manleigh, the idea of contract would be the murabaha.

Because it won't be easy. You know, the problem was the Morava idea contract system whereby if the Islamic mortgage company has all the resources it needs for all the funds, it needs

to, you know, for all the Muslims and all the people, their customers, without needing to go to the secondary market and sell those contracts. You know that the problem was murabaha is

murabaha means cost plus same. It is when you when it's called Mr. Mishra, as you said, it is basically a cost plus sale to the purchase order, I go and order you to purchase a property for me, and you add your markup and send it back to me after you possess it, you add your ship and send it back to me for our larger sum of money over many years. So, it's a simple

simple contract, a simple contract that once we have ensured that you actually bought and possessed the property, you could turn around and sell it to me for a markup that you decide then what I will owe you is that that

now, you give me $300,000 And you give like many other people that you know 500,000 800,000 And so on and so forth. You ran out of money

unless you can take this contract and sell it in the secondary market to Freddie Mac, Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac or somebody

you will not have funds to to to give to any more clients.

Because then if you are if you are Muslim, you have a problem at your hand here because it you can sell debts

sale of deaths is impermissible Islam. So murabaha is not doable, if we're talking about Muslim companies, and we do want to patronize Muslim companies, and we don't want to support them, and so on. Because of this reason, unless they have enough funds for everybody, which, you know, I don't know if anyone has.

So, that is what are behind the managing partnership, the problem was the managing partnership is that it is complicated because you will continue to be a partner for 30 years, and you have to live up to what that means, you know, you are a partner. So you have to live up to the requirements of partnership and the rules of partnership in Islamic law.

And that makes it complicated. To get out of all of this, you will need to have many clauses in your contract, that will be

not compliant or at least that you will have to put a lot of effort and so much patchwork to get them to comply, it will be pretty difficult to get all the class to comply. The same applies to the renter one, the same of I surrender one you will be the lessor and I will be the lessee, but as the financier you are the lessor, and you are the lessor for how long for 30 years. So, you have to live up to the rules of each era in Islamic law. And that is also difficult, because you will have to be responsible for periodic, you know, or the quality of Ciana SSA. Like the same applies to the diminishing partnership, in proportion, proportion to your

assets. But But the idea here is it is also problematic. Now you cannot, if those contracts,

bear all this risk, you cannot take them and sell them in the secondary market to Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. So in order for you to be able to do this, you will have to eliminate the risks as much as you can, as much as you need to be able to sell them in the secondary market. And that elimination of risk goes against the sort of the rules and the Sharia. So there are communications in all three the kinds of contracts

unless you have the political will. And the economic capacity, not only the political will, because we are part even in a Muslim country, in a Muslim majority country, were part of the global financial system.

And it is hard without so much political will and economic power. Both, you know, both of them, it is hard to have products that are truly compliant, in essence, that are functionally Islamic, technically Islamic, and in every way Islam.

So so that's that's the difficulty the encounter. So Chefin so again, to To summarize, then what what you're saying is that, ideally speaking, the murabaha would be the best all three of them, in an ideal world, if we had the finances and if we had, you know, the the wherewithal, you could construct an Islamically permissible contract, no problems, but we get to the crux of the matter. And that is realistically it is simply not viable for any corporation for any entity to manage many hundreds if not 1000s, you know of properties and sell them it to so many Muslim clientele without getting involved in certain conditions, certain clauses that are highly problematic, and this is

where of course the problem comes. And that is that conceptually speaking, these three models. Yes, ideally, it's possible to be 100% halal, but realistically, we know that when these corporations when these Sharia compliant code, they call themselves Sharia compliant companies, when they asked you to sign there 3040 pages of documents, there are so many specific clauses in there that are highly problematic and questionable. And as you pointed out, Doctor Dr. Hatem, they seem to be very unfairly prejudiced against the buyer and in favor of the company, whether it is distribution of maintenance costs, whether it is taxes, whether it is even late fees, which is another issue. And so

let's now get to the crux of the matter here. We understand these contracts do have problematic clauses, even if ideal

Li, the model might theoretically be halal. Do you think these problematic clauses invalidate the permissibility of the contract? I know that's a broad ended question. So feel free to elaborate and give, you know, give the caveats over here.

Let me, let me say this.

The idea here is that the old contracts that we have, that I said are established in the Sharia, you can actually instrumentalize them in our modern times. To provide Islamic modes of financing, you will have to have new contracts, each and every scholar recognizes that these are new contracts, no matter how much we give them, Islamic names or names of established Islamic contracts or transactions. These are new contracts, they are not the old ones. And many scholars, you know, and that is, and most of the Muslim countries, they, they take the fatwa of the mayor of La where he or the third year of Imam Tamia that new contracts can be hydrolyzed, that, that you could have new

contracts, you don't have to, you don't have to use established contracts in Islamic perfect, but you could make new contracts, as long as those new contracts are not in conflict with the principles with the Islamic objectives and the principles of

Islamic transactions. So we do understand that these are new contracts. Now these new contracts, in order for them to be halal, they need to meet certain guidelines. So in order for them to be halal, and to provide a functionally different alternative, an alternative that is more equitable, and alternative that will basically make Islamic finance shine, and show, you know, the transparency, the accountability, the equity, the social responsibility, those are the characteristics of Islamic finance. However, Islamic finance, in our times, even in Muslim majority countries, does not have that good reputation. You know, why? Because of different reasons. One, because of the difficulties

of creating instruments, like financial instruments within the global financial system that are compliant, because the global financial system is expectedly not really considerate of our values and our laws.

The second one is that banks do want to eliminate the risks, whether it because they want to eliminate the risk to be able to sell their contracts in a secondary market, where they just want to eliminate the risks, because they want to eliminate the risk even Muslim majority countries. So there is a large distance between you know, what, you know, what we aspire for, and the reality alarms lessons now, and whatever had an MLB

MLB SRE or the cost plus sale for the purchase order, the problems with this.

There are so many problems and this that that caused, you know this to be,

you know, not completely like compliant in its current forms. One isn't more other is basically the mutual binding promise. That is not the promise from by one entity, it is promise from both entities, which scholars consider it akin to a contract, although there are some differences. And I don't know how technical you want this to be. But like if we want to make it not too technical, then we were saying, let's just mention, you know, the major problems. One of the major problems is the mutual binding promise, which is in morada, which is too many scholars that came to a contract. I promised the buyer you know, I tell you buy this for me. And then I give you a binding contract to

buy it from you for a binding promise to buy from you. And that binding promise some people said that's the Maliki position. Many Maliki's would argue that it is not. Maliki's do not even accept, you know, the the murabaha concept to begin with. The Maliki is many Maliki's many contemporary Maliki scholars would consider the binding promise in these transactions and not be that the proper Maliki position and, you know, thematic keys, like a chef or a Yanni, for instance, wrote extensively on this issue. She of South Africa at the Mufti of Libya.

Now this is just one of the problems and we're talking about a bind

promise from one side, we're not talking about a binding promise from both sides, which is even more problematic.

But that is what happens that you have a binding promise from both sides. And then

what is also

unclear is whether the the bank possesses the property or the institution, the financing institution or the bank possesses the property before they turn around and hand it over or pass it on to you that possession is important is necessary for this transaction to be halal, because of Faraj but tomorrow as the Prophet sallallahu sallam said, that profit is tied to liability, if you do not become liable for the property, you know, money, that's my biggest money, there has to be some risk, there has to be some labor, there has to be some reason to make profit, otherwise money should not be get money. So the bank or the institution should own the property and then sell it to you does

this happen?

You know, one institution wrote to the Office of the Comptroller, the Office of the Comptroller of currency,

and explained to them the murabaha type contract to convince them that there is no difference between it and between murabaha contract and conventional mortgage and to convince them because, you know, banks should not be involved in risky ventures, risky investments. So, the Office of the Comptroller of currency would not allow them to basically be involved in a risky investment or transaction. So

the bottom line is the Office of the Comptroller of currency told them that you have that this is functionally like completely similar to a conventional mortgage and it is okay, it is fine, because they have eliminated the rest to a point where you cannot, you could not recognize any functional difference functional, non technical, because the contract may be technically, but you cannot recognize any functional difference between it and the conventional mortgage. So, that is one

basically, instrument of Islamic financing.

Now, does it does it? Does it make it different to be technically different? Yes, it makes us different. Here's, here's the, here's the point that we have to agree

to disagree on. Some people say that we look so naive, and we look so idiotic in front of all people that we are actually trying to it is basically like setting up the net on Friday.

And we're doing it and we know that everybody knows that we're doing it ourselves. How could we do this? The issue here is that you do not want to open the floodgates, you do not want to break that psychological partition between us and Reber. We want to try as much as we can, even if there are some technical differences, we want to try to as we can to have differences. So we're not committing Greber just like blatantly clear cut ribbon, you know, so that's the point. So that's the first one. The second one that you mentioned is that diminishing partnership, and the diminishing partnership

is the one that has been chosen by you know, like Muslims, the you know, Muslims who want to get into this business, they can't as I said before, choose the murabaha even though it may be easier, because as I said, after us, after you give the funds, you will run out of funds after like four or five customers or like 20 customers or 100 customers you run out of funds. So you will need to basically

turn around and sell this contract to Freddie Mac or Fannie Mae and so that you could finance other customers didn't to do this if you're Muslim with Amara Bahar because he can sell at that.

So that the managing partnership becomes the became the favorite

For, you know, the Muslims that were like some of the Muslims that were pioneers in this industry, and I'm not saying that they did not put effort they put effort, I'm not saying that there are no differences, there are differences are those differences, functional differences, you know, sometimes maybe, you know, one of the functional differences in Mora and murabaha, for instance, is that if the customer died, you know, in them one minute between,

you know, the transferring the funds to the seller, and finalizing the contract between the financier and the final buyer.

If the customer died, then the bank may be here, you know, yeah, so, what, in the diminishing partnership, we do have differences, some function of differences, but mainly, it's These are technical differences, not functional differences, but some functional differences, if for instance, the bank into the for instance, you insure the house, but the house for some reason, God forbid, got totaled, and the insurance company did not pay you the value of the house, the the that the Muslim financier will not be after you for what they have given you only for their share in you know, in, in whatever payment that you will get their fair share in the payment that you will get, if they now

own 65% of the house, you will get 65% of the payment that you will get from the insurance company is that a function of difference? It is? Honestly it is. So, but then there are many technical differences. And there are some technical problems also, because, according to the IOP standards, and that's the accounting and auditing, you know, for Islamic financing institutions.

So, according to the healthy standard, according to the different fapy assembly standards, there are some rules that are so difficult to, to uphold, by you know, by those, you know, companies or by

at least in non Muslim majority countries, at least when the laws maybe in Malaysia, you could do that maybe in a you know, in some countries that are more accommodating of Islamic financing, you could do that, but it is certainly very hard here in the US.

And there are multiple ones you know, they will ask you to be responsible for the insurance, they have asked you to be responsible for all maintenance, even the basic essential maintenance, they will ask you to not sell the house for a certain number of years. And if you must sell prior to the end of the agreement, then you must buy them out first and then sell the house and so on and so forth. Many things that are and there's also some mutual binding promise involved, there are many issues and then the future same whether it is by premise or contract, because when when when you do

basically purchase the house and each one of you has a share, you will either promise to buy

a portion of the house every year until you completely buy them out. For you agree on the same it is either a promise or a an agreement. If it is an agreement, it's a little bit more problematic, but if it is binding promise from both sides, it is also somewhat problem.

But that that is it is very difficult without this it is very difficult to leave it up to the customer to purchase at the market price on the day of purchase. So we will agree because then we cannot we cannot figure out how much the person will be paying.

We will just you know it will be 20% 80% and then every year I will purchase a portion of the house at the market price on the day of sale same that is to do it in a way that is completely compliant. But that again becomes very difficult. So are there clauses that are problematic? Are there massage outlets? Well, yes, because there are scholars that are working to find outlets. It doesn't take so much work. Does it take as many opinions that are outside of the form as I had? Does it take a lot of patchwork? It does

So, as we said, you know, what are our options? What are our options, we either say,

you know, you don't need to buy houses, you don't need to buy cars, you don't need to buy equipment for business, you don't need to get into business ventures, or we say, you must have completely compliant contracts, which are extremely, extremely difficult. And that is not to discourage people from pursuing what is better and from improving incrementally. And we do say this all the time, to all the Muslim financiers, we do say this all the time to them. And we encourage them to provide better products, but also, we have to patronize them to become large enough to have the sun so that they can dictate their terms. So that's that the managing partnership. And finally, we have the last

one that the geometric mentioned were mentioned, which is the HR. And it is to a certain extent, like the diminishing partnership. And it's not like it but but the same types of problems that it is a commitment for 30 years where the financier is not going to wash his hands and walk away the financier is the owner is the lessor, and the customer is simply the lessee, he is not responsible, you know, he's not liable, except in the cases of tardy or three negligence or wrongdoing on his part Islamically because we will have to apply the rules of HR nslm Can this that that poses a lot of problems also to become an instrument of financing. And then you get the financier involved at

this level, it causes a like a slew of problems. So all of them have issues, but all of them show promise, at least to be technically different from the conventional mortgages so that Muslims are not committing clear cut River, although the contracts may not be, you know, 100% Sharia compliant.

It now the fact that we got the clear cut rip out of the way makes it easier on us to say that these

basically contracts are haram to be party in these contracts, it is halal to use them for your needs, your various needs.

I'm just position so far is that these contracts because of the clauses that are not compliant, under did not sign like sort of like

can sign on these contracts completely without reservations. But these am just said, because of the these clauses that are not completely compliant. These contracts are permissible for had, if they ever need, these contracts are permissible. And according to under the declining ownership in its current application in America. Here's the one that I'm favorite.

It's the coloration, XL associates. This is very, very useful. So again, to summarize, Michelle Lee went into a lot of technical detail. The to summarize and again, if I say something correct, then then feel free to correct me. Obviously the way that these three contracts actually exist in the corporations in North America, we're speaking primarily we don't know about Europe, we're not talking about Europe, but the ones in America, North America, the ways that they exist. Realistically, there are highly problematic clauses in all of these contracts. Even though the answer the basis of the of the theory is good, but because these corporations are ensuring are

trying their best to ensure that there is minimal or no loss to them. So they put the onus of much of the burden, and they put so many clauses, that the functionality of the contract is actually somewhat similar, not exactly similar to mortgages, however, they are not all the same, and some of them are better than others. And of those that are probably of the best in the North American scene are the companies that offered the diminishing partnership the moussaka Elmo Tanaka. So again, we're looking at the ones based in North America, and that's the photo of

I'm Jeff. So again, check it out, we've spent more than an hour speaking, I want to now be very, very clear here and I'm going to give you the position of one of my teachers and mentors. And if you feel free to to validate it or to reject it or to modify the font, but but I know you're very cautious. I'm going to tell you what one of my esteemed mentors as in it is something that I feel comfortable saying now, even though I delayed this for the longest time, and that is that

there is no doubt that the the Islamic Sharia compliant the Sharia compliant loans that are given are highly problematic. However, given the increasing need, given the situation of Muslims in this land, generally speaking, middle class, lower middle class, and of course, anybody who's struggling, generally speaking, the hijab is enough for them, that they are allowed to avail themselves to these Islamic alternatives, even though they are not 100%. Permissible or 100%. Hallelujah, they say. But given the mitigating circumstances, we will say that we can overlook the problematic clauses, and especially those that are closer to the goals of the Sharia, and have minimal clauses, and that is

without mentioning the names of corporations, we don't want to do that. But the one that is on Mushara column without diminishing partnership, that having been said, this isn't just an open license. Rather, we encourage Muslim entrepreneurs and businessmen to think of models that are more permissible that are more halal. We also encourage the lay Muslim to think long and hard that we haven't even discussed the issue is it even wise from an economic perspective, to lock oneself into a mortgage for 30 years, or to pay rent, there are many economists, Muslims and non Muslims that are actually saying, paying rent actually is better for those, especially on the you know, and they're

in the beginning of their careers, they don't know where they're going to be going, et cetera, et cetera. So we don't want to just give a blanket endorsement at the same time Insha Allah to Allah, for most average Muslims, it is permissible for them to purchase the house that they live in using one of these Islamic alternatives. And if they cannot find an Islamic alternative, these corporations are not accessible to them, or they're not able to get a loan from them. And their situation is not necessarily about aura. But Dyer, let's say.

I think Andrea has that further phrase Hijjah mas, I think which is eternal those there but a strong Hajer not not necessarily the Rudra. In that situation, perhaps even if they cannot find a Sharia compliant one, they might be allowed to even think of a convention one, this is what one of my teachers has said,

Would you allow me to say this? Or would you want to put a caveat, because I know you're very hesitant to to, to say explicitly, so what is your position Shahana.

You know, because of the because of my reluctance, and because of my hesitation to basically, to have my own individual position, I just hide behind the unjust position.

And I think that I'm just positioned as not really far away from what you said. I said,

The only thing is that the person who is not able to find an alternative I would say ask the scholars that you trust

to find I'm sorry, the person who's not able to find an Islamic alternative and feels that his harder is such that conventional one would be permitted for them I would I would tell them ask the scholars that you trust their judgment that you trust their party and trust their judgment

and it doesn't have to be one scholar as you know a couple of scholars but once but those are all are trustworthy and you trust them at the end and you trust to their knowledge. And it is okay to take the easier position if you are if you feel

okay, I can add that caveat chicken no problem, we when we mandate on the person to get a specific photo for themselves, you're right about this. So we I can add that. So that is definitely this then we are in complete agreement. Okay. Alhamdulillah Alhamdulillah. So inshallah with that final concluding thoughts, we we spent a lot of time at home though we conclude on a very specific note here. Any concluding thoughts from you any general nausea and advice about this topic for our for our viewers?

I advise myself and all the Muslims to think God of the Muslims, thank god of the efforts, you know, that are being done by you know, well meaning Muslims and we're not angels and no one is saying that we are angels. And what is no one is saying that the Muslim financiers are angels. We make the offer them we who

We're certainly advise them and we

advocate for the Muslim customers and advise them as much as we can, but we also make the offer them because we know that things are not easy. We know that they encounter many difficulties and it is not always because they want to make more money, it is oftentimes, because the circumstances, the laws, the sort of the financial environment around them does not allow them to do better. We still want them to do better, but we also want to patronize them. So that they can basically develop, they can grow, they can reach the size where they can have the capacity to improve their contracts and to provide better products or better financial products to the Muslims. And I save the Muslims that we

are in this predicament because of our condition, our condition as an owner, and reality is rational. Reality is rational. Let's not blame anyone but ourselves for our condition.

Reality is rational and you can change it unless you are rational as well. So let's keep our heads down, keep working, keep improving. You know ourselves, our families, our communities are awesome and humanity at large. So

just sincere consistent effort from each and every one of us when inshallah improve and change already. Al Hamdulillah Docomo aka chef Anna we had a very very amazing interesting conversation I hope it was of benefit to our viewers and she'll have this inshallah is not going to be the last time we we have the backend for the first time we had one but I hope inshallah we can do multiple sessions. Definitely the for our viewers here, the sharks PhD, was about medical issues and Islamic fix. So we definitely have to talk a lot about the changing understandings of medicine and how they're going to impact filk he is a practicing doctor and practicing chef as well locally Luma home

Al Hamdulillah. So inshallah this is round one with our chef, Inshallah, we're going to try to have other rounds as well as akmola. Here we hope in sha Allah to Allah that you've benefited from this rather long and yet technical and yet also inshallah to add a very useful talk we ask Allah azza wa jal to grant Dr. Hatem, long life full of piety and good deeds and good health, we ask Allah for Alfia for him and his loved one for us and our loved ones. We ask Allah azza wa jal to accept all that we do to forgive our shortcomings to exalt our ranks and to ask and to cause us to die upon the Kadima of Allah Allah Allah Allah Muhammad Rasulullah until next time Cinemag rahmatullahi wa

barakato

in melon Mussolini now almost Lima de one meaning Mina de carne de now look on it the more slowly been I was slaw the bond he was on eating I was slaving a lot the one before she you know wonderful she

wouldn't fall she mean I want to follow she is the one downside BP now one downside the party was on me and I was all in

one heavy Lena photo gentlemen one half of what it was good enough.

What's going on? I don't know hula

nauseam.