Nouman Ali Khan Book Review

Hello, and welcome to a very special episode, I'm here joined with su Asif who is doing postgraduate studies and actually studying Islamic theology. And also Dr.

Dr. Ayman, who's with us and also interested in the field of structural coherence of the Quran and linguistic

precision of the Quran, which is our subject for today. Today what we're gonna do is we're going to look at a book written by

a very prominent, well known Dahlia in his in the Islamic circles and obviously in the Western world. And we're gonna look at some of the things that he talks about.

and discuss more generally two things two things which in dour are very important, actually, especially when we try and call people to Islam. Discuss Islam generally, my notes have fallen on the floor. And also generally speaking,

to understand the Quran, generally speaking, so two things we're gonna talk about our first number one is the linguistic precision of the Quran, his approach to it some of the sources he uses, etc. And number two, the structural coherence of the Quran And once again, his approach to it the sources etc. So let's get started. I want to start off with There's your house if you've read this book, obviously, she's my boy. And

you know, the sources that he uses tell us generally, before we talk about a lot of fun and his book and all these things, when we say what a Muslim says linguistic miracle of the Quran, what generally do we mean?

When Alhamdulillah wa salatu salam ala rasulillah Allah Allah, he was so happy, I mean,

yeah, so when people actually talk about the linguistic miracle of the Quran, inshallah brother, Dr. Ayman can elaborate more on this is that when we had this, the scholars actually discuss a number of things what is considered to relinquish the miracle of the Quran? You know, there's like, I think the Azhar University they came up with around 10 different points regarding what is considered to be linguistic miracle of the Quran. And some of the scholars from the past like even Josie Maliki Rahim, Allah, he talks about some of the the the hustle issue was what is considered to be like the linguist, but the speciality special features of the Koran.

And what is considered the linguistic miracle of the Quran, in actual fact, the challenge of the Quran as well and they talk about how the Quran is considered to be every single thing in the Quran is there for a reason. And, and the thing is, is that something that you've been assured mentioned, which is, which I find quite amazing, is that

even assured is a Tunisian scholar. He wrote a very, very famous, a very good, amazing Tafseer called How do you deal with unreal, you know, he died maybe about 4050 years ago, one of the best contemporary tough to use around to be honest,

when in actual fact one of the best tips he has ever written. And he said something really fascinating about what is considered what is the Koran, you notice that the Quran is put on before is kitted up. So something which is a recital of the tongue before it's actually something which is written down from a preservation thing, from prevalent preservation perspective is actually quite incredible, which we won't really discuss. But from a from a linguistic perspective is actually quite amazing. And that is that Allah subhanho wa Taala, what he does is that he he uses words which are functional, from a daily perspective, because there's a difference between words which show

you've written and word which has spoken. Right, so Allah subhanaw taala, uses words which are generally functional, like when you actually read the Quran to a normal Arab, then they would they would be quite familiar with those words, because they're spoken words.

So what Allah subhanaw taala does is that he uses those basic generally basic words, and he makes them miraculous, and it makes them eloquent. So that's actually something which is quite phenomenal that Allah subhanaw taala is basically speaking to us and our level. Mama was earlier you mentioned one of the greatest blessings of the Quran is Allah Subhana Allah speaks to us at our level. So the thing is, is that Allah subhanaw taala is when he actually challenges the the the Arabs to come up with a Quran he says facts or factual

facts will be sorted timidly right. So come with a sorta read chapter like it. And the incredible thing is that the word like the media or the pronoun Yeah, there's a big discussion. Where does it go back to does it go back to the Quran? Or does it go back to the Prophet system because a prophet is

Some is mentioned in that very same verse, meaning that if you want to come up the challenge, the the main opinion of this verse is that the challenge is come up with a verse like the Koran, or come up with a verse a sorta sorry, a sword or a chapter like this Koran from someone like the professor, some someone who's, who is did not know how to read or write someone who came from the middle of the desert. He had no real teacher instruction, and come up with a Quran like this. So the eloquence or the the Quran, really from a linguistic perspective that the actual challenge in that linguistic element of the Quran is something which is every single word is in its place. And I bring it up to

tell us now when we talk about the linguistic miracle of randomness, let's say from a invitation perspective, when it comes to invite people to Islam and stuff like that. And we want to we want to express to them in our terms, how it is that the Quran is miraculous, what would be the approach you would generally use? And what kind of evidence would you would you put forward

Mr. Neville Salatu, Salam ala rasulillah. With regards to what I would put forward as the miraculous nature of the Quran, one of the strongest arguments, I think, is to do with the linguistics, as we've been talking about to do with the linguistics and also to do with the structural composition of the Quran,

it will be difficult to go through every single little example, in order to put it forward from a dour perspective. But what we can say is that we can present it from a historical perspective. And as she has mentioned, that, what we can do is we can explain that, from the linguistic perspective, every single letter word is in its place. And we can give a few examples here in this place. Can we be a bit more specific when we say it? Because that's been said twice? Now? Let's try and be

more quantifiable in our approach someone who's in this place, that's very subjective, isn't it? True. Okay. So what we can say is that, first of all, the words that the Quran uses, they're very precise, in that if other words were used in that place, it would have detracted from the meaning. That's number one. Number two, also, we can talk about the consistency in the word choice throughout the Quran. That's one one aspect of it as well, that we can speak about. So for example, a low say something in one place, and he will use a very similar or the same

physiology somewhere else. And they're both linked together in a very subtle way, which you'd have to think about, and wish you would, it would, it wouldn't just come sort of straight away without without actually analyzing it further on. And I think that's quite profound. If I was to explain it. Further, I'd give examples of this, basically. And that's how it explained to me Well, I mean, one person that has given examples of this is not an anaconda, which is why we've got his book here. And it's what this is an interesting book to say there is no doubt he's gathered lots of opinions of different scholars, people from the west orientalist even, and obviously classical scholars of

Islam. He starts off his book with exactly what you've just mentioned, actually, it talks about word choice, their literary units, lexical items, and these and these things. What do you think of the examples he puts forward? And generally speaking, the approach he uses just

yeah, I mean, I think the book actually is very good. Mashallah written by Sharon, Amani, Han and Sharif

Aranda.

So they actually, the book is actually divided into two halves, the first half is actually looking at micro level approach and the macro level approach. So the actual structure of the book is actually quite good as coherent. He talks about the linguistic elements of the Quran, which makes it

miraculous or makes it something which is, you know, something which is quite incredible. And then from a macro perspective for it, so that's more of a linguistic perspective, that the macro perspective is looking at it from the perspective of its structure and its coherence.

So yeah, generally he I think he does a very good job. I think it's a basic to intermediate level book in terms of introducing the, the the audience to something like this. I don't think there's and it gives examples of the kind of examples that Dr. Ayman was kind of alluding to, yeah, sure. So he can he gives many examples of this. There's actually a very good he mentioned one of the books that he relies on, which is written by Chef mowlana, Adama kailani mora de facto Quran, where he basically in the introduction, I think, of the book he mentions that the synonyms what are the differences when we're talking about word choice? Why is it that last month Allah used one word over

another word, as an example? You know, what is the difference? taking one example is, you know, if I were to say to you the Day of Judgment, what's the word that you would think of straightaway in the Arabic language? How will you Yokoyama right, but yeah, interestingly, Allah Subhana Allah He mentions in salted Fatiha he doesn't mention gamma, when he's describing the deal.

Judgment he mentioned young with Dean, which is really fascinating. Why would you mention your median? And this this word, the day of judgment, Yama, Dean, it doesn't appear in the Koran that often there's very, very few number of times. So what we what we actually do when we actually when you're reading the Quran, were were to especially engage with the Quran we're supposed to make the number of the Quran we're supposed to ask, why, why does Allah use this word? opposed to another word? And there's a number of reasons like father son, right? He mentions in one of his books, you know, the reason why Allah smart Allah mentions, you know this particular word. And you can even

take it further you can say, okay, from a, from looking at that word, why did Allah Subhana Allah mentions it as a noun, opposed to a verb? Why did Allah Subhana Allah mention? Why does he mention it? You know, this word before the other words, so for instance, manda Rahim. Why doesn't Allah subhanaw taala mentioned a Rahim Rahman, as an example? So there's these kind of things. They really are very, very delicate, isn't it? Yeah. And they're very subtle points, right? They're very subtle points that perhaps you wouldn't really necessarily get too much from when you're reading the, the English translation, because when you're when you're translating the Arabic into English, then you

know, maybe the word order will completely change. And you'll actually, and this is a good point about Abdel Halim his translation, is that

he writes in the introduction of his translation, and this is one of the reasons why I think this is one of the best translations out there is that there's a there's this this thing about consistency, you know, when you're translating one word, in the, in the Arabic language into English language that you saw a lot of translators, they feel that they have to be consistent throughout the whole of the Quran. But the problem is in the Arabic language, even though that word, yeah, it has to be contextual. So you can't necessarily just translate that word, you know, every single time in one particular way, when the context may be completely different. Interesting, I wanted to say I mean,

you know, we're going a little bit deeper. So hopefully, the, the listener watcher, someone who's watching this, understands where we're gonna go with this, it's a little bit difficult to talk about the sources, and he talks about following some array. Now, from my reading of nominally Han, and just listening to some of his lectures as well, in the past, I've come to realize that he has quite a reliance on the Father, the samurai. In fact, if you read the first half of his book, you'll see that the reliance is quite prominent thread through his writings in his speeches.

Now tell me something about who is fatherless, some of it and how comes.

Ali Han has really relied upon him and has been influenced by him in this way.

So I was actually one nominee, when he came to the UK for the very first time, I can't remember what year 2011 or 12, or something, he came to Edmonton last year to deliver his divine course, speech course, over the weekend. And I was a I was able to kind of like, grab him for about 2030 minutes. And I basically, you know, he was just right at the at the stage. And you know, and he was just preparing a few things. And I just went, I went up to him. And there was some, you know, they just tried to try to sort out the lighting and the sounds and all that kind of stuff. So I thought this is a good opportunity to speak to him. And I said to him, I said, Look, I emailed you, like three

years ago, you didn't respond.

So then Thank you, sir. I'll give you time now. So then I asked him like loads of questions. And I asked him, I said, you know, other than father's tomorrow, who else is there that we can actually read in terms of, you know, the linguistic elements of the Quran? And this is an important question. I mean, the reason why that's really an important question is, I think, as we'll talk about for filming, one of the important things as relates to sources is not just being acquainted with let's say scholars of different disciplines, like for someone as a grammarian is

a linguist, a linguist, or grammarian or wherever you may be a linguist, but

what I was saying is about diversifying your portfolio of scholars not being over dependent upon one person, whether it be nomadic Han himself, sure, or father or someone right, or whoever it may be. And we discussed like, mixing up the contemporary Reliance's, like our reliance on contemporary scholars and our reliance on also classical scholars and seeing that there's a long line of continuity, classical continuity that we can trace. So it's not just someone like fatherless on the right, who comes in, let's say, who died I think 10 years ago, 15 years now. He's alive. He's alive. Others Yeah.

He killed him before he died.

Yeah.

Because, you know, he's, oh, he's, he's very

nice.

Okay.

I've read his book. I've heard one of his books. This is

very good. Yeah. 100 100 100 page book. It's not that big for Arabic readers. You'll find if you do read

His book, you'll find that there's if you listen to sorry, if you listen to nominally can't speak, and read his books, it's pretty much the translation is pretty much identical stuff. So he's been influenced not all of it, obviously, he puts it in and in a Western way, and all those kind of things that he teaches in a really good way. But it's really much he's highly influenced by him. But the point we will make before before I killed off stuff,

before I made that mistake, was that the diversification of portfolio scholars and not relying on one person for your Eman, right.

Moreover, like, you know, finding that continuity of classical scholarship, going to continue the story I did. I must say, Yeah, no, no, no, no. So So I asked him, I said, you know, who else could you come up? Can I refer to? So he mentioned? Excuse me a few other people as well.

I I'm really bad with names and books. Right. So he actually did refer me to a particular

book that is a masters. And he basically that the actual the the author, is your official account, remember his name? And he basically does actually contemporary? Yes. So he actually looks into the differences between the words. So for instance, the difference between for odd and cold as an example, right, so we translated as, as the heart or chest or something like that. And it goes into a lot of detail regarding that. And so yeah, so he actually, you know, he told me about that he told me, there's a really good website called islamia.com, or something along those lines, where they basically gather a lot of contemporary scholars and gurus and so on and so forth. And they put it

all on this one website, which is a really good resource that I didn't know about.

And there's, you know, the other Hmong colonies book that I mentioned as well, which not been translated, it's in the audio language. So there are a few things here and there and he you know, he heavily relies on Israel Achmad, it seems as though he relies on Israel, for more of a, a structural perspective, and a CD perspective, more than

the linguistic perspective. But in my opinion, I may, I may be wrong. But yeah, but what he does, and this is a reason why perhaps he relies on him, from a linguistic perspective, is that, you know, he's amazing. I mean, Father, some have a little luck before him.

He's, he's quite amazing. And what he does is that the thing is, is that he doesn't bring everything from himself, right. He does actually refer to scholars from the past, he does actually refer to a party, who is a 10th 11th century scholar, and he does refer to the sixth century.

Yeah, yeah. Because

he was considered to be the favorites, you know, viman, digital scholar as palani. So he's an 11th century scholar, you know, like he does refer to as the sixth century scholar, you know, he does actually refer to different scholars. And this is the point though, I mean, isn't it because this just to continue with that thought, and don't lose your train of thought here? The point of continuity, right, because you said, Hey, if I mentioned too high, we also assumed to have mentioned a book with

a softer table Quran, which is the secrets of the the chronology of the Quran, right ordering of the ordering of the sword. So, hey, there is that continuity, there's that line of concern. So in other words, what namana Han is saying here is not something which is is not original, in the sense that it's not it's not a bad thing, obviously, it's a good thing, in a sense, because it's not innovated, right? It's not something you're just coming out with. Some people have come before with it, without understanding, right. But knowing that there is a line of classical scholarship, all of which you have had a very similar the same one, listen for the structural coherence, which we're going to move

on to, and linguistic precision, which we've already spoken about alluded to,

helps, once again, diversify that portfolio of scholars and not relying upon that one individual for

for spiritual, or for spiritual guidance, that information has been there for hundreds and hundreds of years. And people have said it a long, long time ago. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this is a very good example. Like, you know, you mentioned the book by a memorial to him Allah regarding the, you know, the, the the ordering of the soldiers of the Koran. So what he wrote this very small book, where he talks about the beginning, the relationship or the manassa, between the beginning and the end of a sort of doctrine. And then what he would do is

a memorial to hear that book. So yeah, that's right. So what father Samurai does, interestingly is that he takes that that concept further, and this is a good thing about fall Samarra is that he's the continuity perspective, is that he actually starts right, he writes that he rewrites that book, except that what he does is that he actually says, Okay, what is the relationship between the end of one surah and the beginning of the next one? Do you get it so he he actually even takes it? I think he'll Robinson called Duff Taylor. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So so he's actually so he actually does go a little bit further than so he's basically pushing the concert.

The squat, as I mentioned in the past a bit a bit further. So yeah, I mean, you know,

so fun summarized is actually quite good on that perspective is quite amazing in that perspective from a linguistic perspective. And there's definitely some things that you know, he's like an expert in this field. I remember he has a car, remember exactly how many years but I remember him saying that when he was reflecting on the verse.

That was a verse upon Allah. Allah sponsored. I mentioned this many, many times, where he said that while our homophone la mala, Mia has known that there will not be any fear on them and they will not, they will not grieve. So he said that I made a double on this verse for like three or four years or something, something crazy like that, right? Just a huge number of years, just on this. So Allah, Allah says, In this verse, Will our whole family himolla home Yes or no? And he started pondering on this verse for like years. And he said, Why is Allah? Why does Allah subhanaw taala mention health as a noun, which is fear? And then he mentioned yazar known as a verb, grieving being

sad, like what is he mentioned as a verb? And he said, I was just making a debate on this verse and, and that those 10 minutes, he explains this, just one verse is just like mind blowing, it's incredible.

People give the people something, you given them the bone. So he talks about it from different perspectives in terms of why does he mention this person that mentioned. So for instance, hope, you know, when someone gets scared, like they, you get scared of spiders, or you get spit scared, or rats from very young age, then basically, it becomes permanent. And that's what a noun effectively represents. a noun represents something that is permanent and stable. So once you have a fear of something, it's going to stay with you for the rest of your life. But when it comes to a verb, a verb is something which is, you know, it's something which is temporary, you know, you're not going

to be sad, forever, you're going to have happiness, you're gonna have sadness. So this is how it's reflected in that in that actual verse. So Allah subhanaw taala, saying that, there will not be a hope upon them, which will be a permanent type of fear that will last with them forever in in the in the hereafter. And they will not be of those who are, you know, be coming in and out of sadness. So he was, you know, this is a really beautiful clip about I can't remember 10 minutes clip, just on this point that he mentions. And yeah, so he actually, some of this stuff is from himself. And it just requires a lot of interaction with the put onto the board. And there's no problem with making a

double as long as you don't that because change the meaning so far, to summarize very well, he's not really referenced that much in the book in terms of the selected bibliography. But he is he's kind of a lot of his talks and stuff. If you're familiar with his talks, and his YouTube videos, obviously, he's got a lot of YouTube videos in Arabic language, are kind of eluded to in in the discussion, this discussion, for example, in the first chapter of or may you recap

and that's this is from further summarize each video in Arabic, there's lots there's lots like that a lot of examples, but the link is definitely a prominent link between and you can see that he's definitely influenced by him. Tell us something about how would you assess the link between further

on in the in the in the way that he puts forward his discussions

in terms of the link is definitely that there is a link there. And so a nominal kind is quite open with us. I think. I remember watching a couple of his videos and he clearly said you know, that fought he fought Last Samurai is one of his inspirational figures. And he I remember watching one video, so I'm paraphrasing, so that he said he, when he met him, he was very inspired by men. He told him all of this stuff for the summer, right, as you were saying earlier, as well, he's a linguist. His speciality is grammar in Arabic and, and language. So when it comes to actually making Tafseer of the Quran, of course, there'll be limits on the on the ways that he can make Tafseer. So

his expertise, as you mentioned, would be in in grammar and language, but he would be limited in the way that he could bring in things like ahaadeeth and other other tough series as well. To be fair to him, he does he does go into it sometimes.

But he will be limited in it because of naturally because of his areas of area of expertise. No man alikhan in the same way, he's more of a linguist as well.

He mentions in his book, other sources that he brings in apart for further summary to be completely fair to him, for example, he mentioned for our he Slahi and some some other classical scholars as well,

by seems that his book is very dependent or heavily heavy on the more contemporary scholars rather than the more classical scholars. So for example, he and one thing we haven't really mentioned this so far, for example, with the structure, he will talk about, for example, certain Western academic code, Raymond Farron

and another another could have had him as well, but in terms of how far he takes it back after them, it said it could be it could be a bit questionable how far he takes it after that.

to them and I think Shake Shack has if one of his teachers up to help him, so, maybe he will give us more of an insight.

But before that he mentioned in the slide there are some issues I mean, he suffers in a loop isn't it in Urdu language and has been translated into English language and he gives a lot of credit to both both for AI and his life. And both of those individuals have have definitely put in a lot of effort into discovering things potentially that not many people have shed light on before before them on this issue of structural coherence of the Quran. Firstly, introduce us to what what do we mean by structural curses on who is life What is life?

Is the dependence on his life I hate misplaced or is there some reason for it? And what are the limitations of depending on the likes of these contemporary scholars?

So in terms of the structure of the Quran, one of the the you know, even Samia rahimullah mentioned something quite beautiful. He said that one of the benefits that you get with discussing things with the, with the people of innovation, is that you will actually be forced to look at the wisdoms of the Shetty or wisdoms of, you know, aspects of Islam. So that's why we're

terrible.

So, moving swiftly along. So, so, yeah, so, so one of the benefits of the questions or the attacks, of

you know, the, the orientalist may make regarding the coherence of the Quran really brought prominent brought prominence to the miraculous nature of the structure and the coherence of the Quran. Yes, you know, so, you know, quite a few people like Thomas Carlyle, and, and, more importantly, no decade who was a German orientalist, they're really Yeah, he's mentioned quite I mean, he's, he's unavoidable to be honest. And in particular, Richard at Bell, they really question the the coherence and the structure of the Quran, actually, by Richard Bell, who translated who partly translated the Quran.

He goes as far as rearranging the Quran, believe it or not, he, what he does is that he gets the sutras of the Quran, he says, you know, this part of the surah, it doesn't make sense. And this will be better if we put this with another part of the sutra is pure arrogance really. And, and he is a part of the problem. And this is what something a Belgian Catholic scholar by the name of Michel copers he's written, he mostly writes in French, but some of his books have been translated, a couple of his books have been translated, one on the structure of sort of metadata and other on really discussing the rules behind the the actual theory of how we understand the structure, or the

composition of the Koran, he really talks about the difference between Semitic logic and and and, and Western logic. And he basically says that Western logic is basically like an introduction, problem solution conclusion, what we're all very familiar with. And this is employed in the West whilst we have the symmetric logic, which is really based on ring compositions. So ring composition is basically sometimes one aspect of ring composition, is to look at a chapter of the Quran or chapter of the Bible in his perspective, and you basically put a mirror right in the middle of it, and then you'll find what is in the beginning is actually symmetrical, yes, effectively symmetrical.

So what what is slightly and for he do and they're not the first ones to actually understand the coherence of the Quran and being in this way because the Mullah he 11 switch we

were talking about.

So I saw them Yes, yeah. So there's clear coherence in the put on, the professor Sam said that I was given the long seven orders in place of the Torah, I was given the main sources which are those sources which go beyond 100 verses in place of the the Psalms of David and I was given them a fanny suit as in place of the Injeel and I was given an always prefer Mufasa. It's very clear that the there's a coherence

of the Quran is very clear that there is a coherence of the Quran.

But what they what for he and his law he do, which is quite interesting, that the the previous scholars haven't really discussed in this kind of detail, is that they come up with a theory or a compositional theory. And that is that the sutras of the Quran is actually revolves around seven different groups of seven different groups. So they basically say that the suit is these groups, they begin with a mucky surah and they end with a Madani sorta so they'll put example sort of Fatiha, and up to sort of marry that as one group. And then they'll say sort of an arm to, you know, until I can't remember when as another group and each of these groups, they represent a particular

concept. So for instance, they may represent like, you know, discussing the kurush and they may discuss like

matters related to rules and regulations. So they've actually come up with these seven different groupings. Now I don't fully endorse, I don't completely agree with the the actual groupings, but certainly there's, there's, there's some ideas or some, some some of their thoughts related to the composition and structural elements of the port on, which cannot be, cannot be, cannot be avoided. And, you know, some of the things are really, really interesting, you know, Subhanallah, from a, from a structural perspective is very, very interesting. What would you find interesting as well is that, and this is actually to cryptography is also is that he does, whilst you mentioned, you know,

that he does kind of, he does really rely on contemporary scholars, for the most part he mentioned to the cathedra. But only very, very briefly, he mentioned a few other classical scholars, and we're talking about anything for 500 years old, you mentioned it very, very,

you know, passingly. But the point is, the good thing about this, as you were talking about before is that this is actually targeted towards like more of a Western audience. And for that reason, he a lot of the names, you'll find a very much Western and, and one other really important point to note is that

what he opened my eyes to as well, to be frank and honest, like you were talking about, Michael is a Cooper's as I say things, quivers. And others like in this in this, in this reading in this bibliography. Those individuals actually really, interestingly, come to a lot of those come to a very similar conclusion as Islamic scholars, which is that there is a structural Curse of the Quran. And the basically the structural currents, the current as I understand it, is that there are there is a lexical continuity.

And what I mean by that is, and this is actually very much quantifiable, that the the sort of the Quran, the sutras, the chapters of the Quran, are interconnected, in a very integrated way, and there's a deep intuitiveness of the Quran. And this intuition, this runs across the Quran, there's a grouping of the grinders, clusters, almost like constellations in the sky, you know, in the Quran, and what makes it we would argue miraculous is a corpus tries to say the same thing exists in the Bible. But the one problematic point in that is that the Bible could have been premeditatedly written if someone was playing devil's advocate say that it's not from God. But from a Quranic

perspective, you can't argue that because it was all circumstantial revelation. So people would ask the Prophet Mohammed Salah question he would answer in the form of revelation so which unfortunately, not only one because his tone here is not really argumentative.

Yeah, please add to it, but I was gonna add that he doesn't really

does mention the circumstantial point. So the point of the Quran being circumstantial and therefore distinguished from the Bible, or the biblical text, he mentioned the corpus, he says that copers has we have seen that the Bible, the biblical narrative, and the narrative arc, or the biblical composition, the Quranic composition are quite similar. But he doesn't distinguish the Quran through circumcised revelation God. So I was just gonna add to what you said about

in terms of the

the Quran being different from the Bible, and that it it was revealed circumstantially, yeah, so for Thank you said, for playing devil's advocate we're playing we really had become a big, super skeptical we could, somebody could come along and say, the Sahaba, you know, they wrote the Quran after the Prophet died, and they were the ones who sort of put it together if you want it to be super skeptical. Yeah. And this comes down. There's interest. There's a few interesting research papers on this, that and illustrates a sort of shifting the orientalist thought from the last 100 years. So if you see sort of the missionary, orientalist work previously was very critical of Islam.

And it's kind of shifted now to being more appreciative of the Islamic basically classical

conception of the Islamic narrative basically. So that just related to what you said, there's an interesting paper by

an oriental scholar based in America. And he actually came to the conclusion, I'm not sure if he's Muslim or not. But he actually came to the conclusion, his name is Ben namsa, daggy. And he came to the conclusion based on sort of stylometric research, that actually the core and the way is put together actually fits in with a with a with a circumstantial kind of view of being revelation. So I'll just come back come back rounds over thinking Really? Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. But the way the reason I mentioned it is because we've been super skeptical and looking at from the outside in, you could say that, but this is somebody who is looking at from the outside in and actually seeing Yeah,

he might be from the way he writes, I get that impression, but I can't I can't say for certain but he's somebody looking from the outside in actually saying oriented is saying that actually, the Quran was revealed according to the classical Islamic and same thing we're talking about just a little bit.

Not in line with the topic but about preservation, isn't it? Yeah. Preservation of art itself, a lot of orientalist. Now come into that discussion comes that conclusion of the Koran is actually preserved. You've done some research and this will be fun. So

A similar sort of thing from the audience's perspective, it has been a shift really, yeah, in that previously, they would say it's not preserved because they had a sort of baggage that they were Christians. They were trying to disprove Islam, but now, it's kind of shifted, that they're a lot more sympathetic and a lot more agreeable to the Islamic narrative.

So the same same guy, but he's written a research paper, one of the only research papers on dishonor manuscripts, and he has, he has had access to them. And he's come to the conclusion or sort of going towards that, that side, that the Quran is preserved. There's another German scholar by the name of Nicholas Sinai. He has the issues with some papers that he's written as well, but he comes to a similar sort of conclusion that, you know, it must, it has sort of, is preserved, and it has one author, basically. So it's interesting to see the shift and also from the outside looking in the view that

that people are taking ideas from the academic sphere.

When we're talking about how there's certain contemporary scholars coming to this same conclusion as classical scholars, another example of this is not necessarily from preservation perspective, but from a coherence perspective, is that of, of Raymond Farron. So Raymond Ferran, who was also a Western academic. And he's and he actually came up with, he's really popularized in western academia, the concept of ring composition

other than copers and Western Civ meet, now, he has this theory where he's written a whole book on this on the structure of the

structural coherence of the Quran, where he basically says that the first that is actually the ring composition of the Quran is not just on the solos, but the actual whole Quran itself, meaning that the first surah of the Quran from the 114 Sutras, it corresponds with the last word of the Quran. And the second sort of the Quran corresponds with the penultimate sort of the Quran. And what's really fascinating is, when I when I, when I was corresponding with him, he didn't realize that this theory was a theory that actually happened like three 400 years ago. And that was by Ben Makai, and not madora, where he basically said that it corresponds with sort of mass, the first one sorta, and

the last order was barely can medical, medical, medical, medical. medical illness. Yeah, so he gives equal items. Yeah, so he he really? Yeah, so he gives a couple of examples. One example is, if you look at the names of the suitors of the Koran,

sorry, the names of Allah subhanaw taala Fatiha, you know, Allah, and Rob and Malik, Malik. These are all the very same names that which are mentioned in sordidness. Yeah. Illa Jimenez medica. Nurse I've been asked, right. But But also, I can't remember which scholar said this. But he really interesting. The first sort of Mr. Razia Hamel. He says that the whole of the Quran is that one idea in terms of coherence. And you find this incredibly to be the case, actually, if you look, dig deeper and deeper, yeah. And it's something which you can put your finger on. It's not, it's not a subjective thing. Yeah. So that's the reason why I mentioned the fact that Ferran did his own

independent study, when I corresponded with him, he didn't even know about his theory, which means that different people from different times and places are coming to the same conclusion. But just to mention this one example, that I can't remember who which got to mention this.

If you actually look at the first verse of the Quran, which is Al hamdu, lillahi Rabbil aalameen all praise and thanks belongs to Allah. He is the rub of the LM he is the most of the Al Amin.

If you look at the last verse of the Quran, what is it mean? What is unity oneness and a very prominent opinion. And this is the opinion of other Sumeragi and is a very strong opinion is that the island mean are the gene and the gene and the mankind. So here you find a beautiful coherence coherence. If you want to know who the alemi are, then the Al amin Are you know, genetti oneness.

Okay, well, generally speaking, Raymond Ferran, he says about the book, divine speech brings the reader up to date with the current research and literature, literary quality of the Quran, and its intricate composition. I think that is a pretty much a good summary of what the book does do. But I mean, what's really good about this whole, I would say this new doubt,

when the pendulum has swung a little bit away from

you approaches

to kind of try superimposed as we've done in other series, like, for example, scientific meanings on Quranic verses, we're going back to a classical understanding of what is a miracle, a miracle classical understood is a linguistic miracle is a structural miracle is the is the prophetic miracle in the fact that our prophecies, these things have been well established and we have lots written about it.

Not to say that there isn't any anything beneficial or valuable from the scientific narrative as well. There is a lot valuable from there but it's just been I feel a lot of it is contract a lot of is so as with anything, I think one point I wanted to make as well as like,

as with anything I mean, the structure

thing, this looking for structures and stuff like that, although we will I think we will agree here that there is definitely a structural coherence of the Quran there is definitely inter inter connectedness of the Quran, knitted togetherness of the Quran,

which is striking intertextuality wherever you want to call it.

However, there is this danger isn't there of there potentially being a, it can be contrived, like that we could also do fall into similar things as,

for example, those who over advocate the scientific narrative can fall into. And then you've and there are some examples that was talking about before, for example, with

following this law who have come with like, say, new to Sears, for example, so to Kalfa, can you give us some more information about that?

Yeah, so

they had a theory that the last few suitors of the Quran, they all revolved around something related to the Kaaba.

So, so far, he Rahim Allah, and it's like, he basically quotes it in his stuff. So you'd have to who Koran, that co author, which has classically meant,

you know, like abundance, or it can also mean a river or a pond of paradise. He actually interprets it as

the Cabo Baitullah, which is I looked into this, and I've not come across any other scholars who've actually ever mentioned this. And this is the problem, although he you know, if you actually read his, his arguments for his arguments, you know, he seems very, you know, very scholarly and academic and the way he's trying to prove it, but you can't come up with something that's not really already been there. And this is a big problem that I have with the theory of coherence, in that it can be a little bit contrived. And some scholars, even in the past have actually had a problem with this. So example, in Montreal, Canada, Himalayan fashola did, he had a big problem with the chi Rahim Allah,

his Tafseer another madora. In that he thought that there's too much when I said this, he thought that the whole thing was Manasa meaning that there is actually a link or a system when it comes to a link between the verses that versus that came before and after it. And then he just he felt that you know, he actually rejected the whole concept of you know, there being a coherence from from from a mom Sure, can you know him a lot? Yes, I'm I'm sure Kenya him alone. He although he rejects the idea of Manasa about or coherence or interconnectedness between a versus it's something which is so unavoidable that even he falls into it.

Because he is unavoidable, you have to be able to connect, I think his main his criticism should really have been that, you know, in Mumbai, Rahim Allah he goes in, you know, he the the his theory, or some of the examples that he mentioned in his seed, they go a little bit too far. And that's true. Because when you actually try to fit the verses and the borders around a particular theory, then you fall into coming up with something which is completely new. And this is the problem with a lot of people who look into even Western academics who look into this into coherence, there is actually a fear that you're going to come up with something new, I mean, even Western Sierra meet,

and other Western academic scholars, some of the Muslim, some of the non Muslim, they're basically saying that through the coherence that we're finding out with these structures that we're finding in the present in the Koran, then this should give rise to a new interpretation of the Quran, which is highly dangerous, in actual fact, because you can't have the Quran is something the meaning of it is clear, it's something that is the meaning that we have today is very, it should be the same as the way that the companions understood it, right? So we can't if we come up with something which is new, based on a theory, then you're effectively coming up with a new idea of what a meaning of a versus a

meaning of a sorta is.

That's really an interesting answer both of you for for really, what for me was fruitful. And also a lot of the people listening some of

our listeners Mashallah, it would have followed 100%. And so those who haven't been able to understand everything, but able to gauge some, at least of what we're talking about, maybe 30 4050 60%, then it does give all of us you know, that aspiration to do more studying and to look more deeply into things because really, and truly,

one thing is really interesting. I mean, generally speaking about knowledge, I was just thinking about us on the on the way here really, one of the prerequisites of knowledge

is the outcome of knowledge, which is humility. You need humility to before you gain knowledge, and you need humility, or you get humility afterwards. And so if you're listening to this and thinking, well, I don't know what's going on.

And there's so many names being mentioned and some of it, that's just aspiration for the future. It's good that you've listened to all of us speak, and that you've, you've gotten this far.

Also, it's important for us to kind of pitch at the top. And sometimes, in a sense that sometimes we will go into technical jargon, sometimes we will go into scholarly work, sometimes we will go into the academic degree, and support us to do that. Why, because the Dow I believe, when I say the Dow, I mean invitation to Islam is really composed of two main things, a research element,

which is very important, let's be frank, and also a delivery, right. And what we do on a popular level is delivery. But it's important for you guys to see how we come to our conclusions, that we are very much reflective, very much self critical, very much analytical and evaluative of the theories that we don't just accept something because it serves a propaganda ik purpose. So something could be probably really in propaganda for us as Muslims to use and believe me, we could fool a lot of non Muslims with it and Muslims with it. But if it doesn't fit the criteria of the academic bar being reached, we won't be comfortable reaching out because Allah subhanaw taala he says generally

generally, that

in the heart, Amara Bulova shimabara

Haku, and to Sri COVID, la la mirada so follow Allah tala. He mentioned so many things that are haram at the end of it and to say is that was about last pantiles, you don't know. So really our purpose with our research and this while making an open transparent research

is to show you how we come to our conclusions before we go into data. It's not just something we go and do go into data, but generally we try and do a research beforehand and also to give you guys understanding, this book is an interesting one because it is a popular

diet. And obviously you guys can read it for yourself it is a good introduction, but also be acquainted with the classical works as well and have aspiration Charla to to look at some of the names that we've mentioned, which is a common law firm with Salaam Alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh