Channel: Kamal El-Mekki
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Bismillah Alhamdulillah Salaam Alaikum. Peace be unto you. I'm your host and you're watching the deen show. We're here on can TV 36 Wednesdays at midnight. And if you miss us, Wednesday's The following day, Thursdays at 2pm. Now we're going to be talking about something, there's some confusion out there. We know that design indicates a designer, that there is an orchestrator behind this universe and everything in it. And when you bring the definition of God, who he is, it has to be simple, it can be confusing, it can't have any ambiguity in it. And we have learned that this creator has sent messengers throughout time. And they've all come with the same message, submit to
the One God worship Him alone. Your two year old can understand that it's very simple. We come back, we're going to help clear up some of the confusion. Somehow this word Trinity got in the mix, somehow. The one God, some people try to split him up like a pie, make them into three, not three. But one. I'm already getting confused. And I think I can add. Now, when we come back, our intention is not to hurt anybody's feelings. Our intention is to clear up the confusion and to deliver the truth. So you want to go No, we'll be right back to clear up the confusion here on the deen show.
And we're back here on a deep show. And our guest today. Came out my brother in your brother, how are you?
How's it going? Hello, Alex, are you back in Chicago? Loving in here. You've been here before the weather's great. Yeah.
been here many times before? Yeah. So we have, we've had you on the show before people can go to the deen show.com. You have your own section there. And they can view some of the past shows that we've covered. Now, you heard me introduce the topic, about the creator tour about the confusion. God is not the author of confusion. He makes things simple. Human beings make it complicated. So we want to kind of try to unravel things and bring things back to their pure state. They don't want to offend nobody. Just want to deliver the truth. We're gonna kick it off with this Trinity. What happened here? Where'd this come from? Excellent. First of all, Bismillah Alhamdulillah wa Salatu was Salam.
ala, I want to first start by by just relaying now a story of something that happened when I visited Thailand. Now when I visited Thailand, that was about seven or eight years old, right. So now I'm not trying to be funny. I'm not trying to be a wise guy when I tell you this story. So this is just basically the the observations of an eight or a seven year old, I can't even recall how old I was, at the time I had my siblings, brothers and sisters with every story you enter in Thailand or home or shop, you find they have a small statue of wood, their God, and they put food in front of the statue. And then because it was summer, the food would dry up. So they'll throw it away, they'll put
new fresh food, this might happen twice, three or four times a day, depending on what they put how it dries up. And they do it again the next day, a number of times a day. And they keep doing it multiple times per day for many, many years. So some of them for 5060 years have been changing the food for the idle for the God for so long. Now, just the observation of a seven or eight year old, we used to mean with my brothers and sisters, we'd look at them. And we'd laugh, we would say, don't they realize that he hasn't ever eaten? Don't they ask him when you take the dry food away, you know, you haven't taken a bite in the last 40 or 50 years. This is what we were saying back then.
It's not because now this is my point behind the story. It's not because the seven or eight year old was smarter than the 60 year old, who is constantly changing the food for his entire life. It's simply that the seven or eight year old was viewing the incident from outside of what we call the box. Because the person changing the food is inside the box. The box is a frame of mind a thought process, you believe certain things about it. And because you look at it from within the box, you don't see what's wrong with it, you see, now let me take the viewers to something that they might have looked at from outside of a box
on the Discovery Channel, they there is a clip where there is this man taking care of a temple where there has 1000s and 1000s of rats in India. And basically he believes obviously that these are reincarnated souls and so on and so forth. So he feeds them and he sits on the floor. And you've probably seen the clip these ruts are over his head, his shoulder and then just 1000s of rats. Now because he is inside the box, he sees himself taking care of the soles of his reincarnated, you know, I don't know what you call them, brothers sisters, what have you. But because we view it on the Discovery Channel outside of the box, to be honest, and again, I'm not trying to be funny. We
just see a guy with a bunch of rats on his head. Let's be honest. Yeah, because we're viewing the
incident from outside of the ball outside the box. It was one of the companions of the Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu Sallam Allah sent his peace of blessings and extol upon him. He, his name is Gemma. And he had an idea, the first thing he would wake up in the morning, he would go to this God made of wood. And he would pray to it. His sons became Muslims, and they wanted him to see that this is just a wooden statue. So the first day, they woke up early, and they threw it in the trash. So he was really upset. And he swore if I found who did this to the idol, I know hurt them and do this and that to them. So he brought it, washed it, boiled it and put it in its place again, the second one
may work out beforehand, they throw it in the trash again. So he was so irate, said if I find out who's doing this to you, I will destroy them. Third, and winning or third, third day they took it and threw it in the dump when nourishing says they tied it to the carcass of a dead dog. So he went looking for the god again, and this is a god that's supposed to bring him good, push away harm from him. He saw it in the dump, tied to the carcass of a dead dog, he looked at it. He said, If you and actually the second night, what happened he put a sword, he hung a sword over the neck of the statue of this God and said, if they come to throw in the trash, defend yourself, yeah, third day, he finds
it attached to the body of a dead dog. He looks at it, and he says, but if you could defend if you could do any good for your own self, if you could do any good, you would have defended your own self, you would have done good for your own self. Push time from your own self. If you can't do it for your own self, how can you do it? For me? What happened in the story is that his son's got him to step outside of the box. I don't know if you paint or you draw. And but when you draw, they teach you to step back from your painting or from what you're drawing. Yeah, just to get another look at it. Because sometimes when you're looking at something from up close, it's crooked, but you can't
see it. Like when you write on a blackboard, your line is crooked, but you can't see when you're up close. So when you step away, now you can really see very clearly. So this is what we need people to do. People need to step outside of the box for a moment and look again, take another critical, unbiased and analytic, analytical look at what they're doing and what they believe in. Does does it make sense when you step out of the box. And now this is, this is the introduction before we start talking about the Trinity. Because the Trinity as much as some people on earth firmly and strongly believe in it. They are there, I believe actually, nobody really understands how it works, the
concept of something, the three things that are one, even though they are physically separate items, and we don't have anything on earth that can be described in that similar manner. So what happens is, sometimes people need to just take a pause and step back and look at their and what they're believing in. Does it make sense when you take a step back or not? We did this one time, we had a discussion with five missionaries. And they were in charge of teaching Bible study at our university in Virginia. And we started by getting them to think outside of the box. So we asked a simple question. The question was, is the Trinity three in one, or one in three? And basically, they were
five missionaries. And they were teaching Bible study, they should know the Bible very well. But they were quiet. They were all looking down and thinking, was it three in one or one in three? And I let them keep thinking they kept thinking and kept thinking and kept thinking. And in the end, I had to give them the answer. I said, obviously, you believe it's three in one. Because if you say one in three, you're admitting to worshiping three gods, suddenly all of them start saying yes, you're right. You're right. Yes, absolutely. You're right. expound on that for a second. How did you
clarify this? How do they worship three Gods if they said, one, it's because if they say, we worship one God, who is in three different places, they're admitting to 123 different gods, the easier thing is to say we have the three Gods with their own one, and they unite as one. Yeah, if you end with this word, one, you still have one God, but if you end with the word, three, yeah, yeah. But why would the, the notice, most Christians know it's three and one, everybody knows this about Trinity, but they were thinking for so long, because they never considered what one in three meant, they never thought of that. So that got them to step outside of the box. A second question we asked
again, got them to think about this from in a way they never looked at it before. We asked them this, that their three gods, God the Father, this is back when Jesus was on earth God, so according to you, God, the son on Earth, God, the spirit, wherever the spirit was, then God the sun, dies for three days. During those three days, how many gods were there? That would be Jesus peaceful, yes, the sun so accordingly, so when Jesus died for three days, the third God had, according to them, how many gods were there. So now you either have to say two because three minus one is two, or you have to instill insist on one, which means one plus one plus one is one and one plus one.
Still one. Yeah. Or you have to say to. So this becomes a problem. So, we asked him this question, and it was difficult for them to answer, because they never consider that what does that mean? And then some started to say, Well, he went up somewhere else. And but then but then the the gospel said that he had died for three days, you know that he will be resurrected on the third day, and so on and so forth. So it caused a problem. And if God be able to think outside of the box, how could this be that one plus one plus one is one and one plus one is still one. And if one person tried to be a little crafty, he said, Well, one times one times one equals one, what do you say is a what we say
to it is that when you're adding three different things, you don't multiply by one, if I give you, you know, three $100 bills, you're not gonna say one time, one thing that's $100 on the table, because if that's the case, I want to do business with you, I want to borrow a lot of money from you. And I'm going to give it back to you, using your logic. See, we don't accept this kind of logic when it comes to things in this life. So why do we accept this kind of explanation? When it can't, when it applies to the creator? You see?
So then, I'll tell you another time, I sat down with someone and he was very honest man, I asked him very quickly. Look, how does this Trinity thing work? And he was a very honest man. He said, Look, nobody really knows how it works. He was actually a pastor ahead of his church. And he said, Nobody really knows how it works. So then the next question was, Why? Why would Allah revealed something that you can't understand? and link it to your salvation? said it again. Why would Why would God the Creator of the heavens and earth reveal something to you? That you can't understand? Which is Trinity? Yeah. And link Trinity to your salvation? Let's hold it right there. Okay, take a break.
And then you're gonna tell us where to start with. You have to play as if everything depends on a lot.
But you must work.
Everything depends on you.
That's my point. You see, I'm saying, and I don't like that. I don't like us sitting here. What are you waiting for? What are you waiting for right now? What are you waiting for all these people that come to this? What are you waiting for? What are we waiting for right now, when they're gonna come? They're gonna come along and bring these people last. Put in our hand, the ability to do it. Now do your job.
Back here on the deen show. Let's continue on. Right from where we left off? Why would the Creator of the heavens and earth Allah?
Go ahead. Okay. And I just want to preface this by saying that I know. I'm not trying to be insulting to anyone. I'm going to give you actual discussions that I've had with pastors and people who are in like, either they were missionaries, or people who teach, you know, Bible study, or they were heads of churches, real situations happen with real people. These are real situation, not anything where we're trying to ridicule another faith, because in Islam, we're commanded to obey to, like, respect all religions, and respect the followers of all other faiths. So we're not trying to be funny here. We're not trying to make fun of anybody. This is an actual discussion that happened.
I asked him and he's the head of his church. Okay, how does the Trinity thing work? He said, No one really knows how it works. So it's but but yet, believing in Trinity is linked to your salvation. So I asked him, Why would God reveal something that you can't understand? And then link it to your salvation? That's like me telling you Hey, Edie, you know, I've got some funding for you, too. So you can do you know, your show, and everything is $20,000. But you need to levitate in the air for half an hour. It doesn't make sense. Like, you can't do it. So why would I give you the reward or link your reward to something you can't do? Why would God link your salvation to a concept that
nobody understands? Nobody understands it. And this is a pastor telling me No one understands it really, and when can truly explain it. But now if they come with these explanations about the egg in the yolk, the water and all these other things that people might come up there, they're all analogies that once we like, like the egg, basically saying that the egg is composed of three ingredients, but it's one egg. Yeah, but that the problem is that when you physically separate the ingredient, it's not an egg anymore. You know, if you see the white on the floor, you're not going to think that that's you won't know what it is actually. So it's not called an egg. So the same
thing that the triune gods were physically separate, so you can call them one. They're not even in one location. You know, what about the water? With the water ice? Yeah, that it's solid, liquid gas or ice liquid and get an vapor and but the problem is, again, this is an example of one in three, not three in one. Yeah, as we agreed that's already three in one. So you can't give an example of one in three water, which is one thing in three different states to explain one in three in one. It doesn't it doesn't work out. Yeah. So what you might ask? Well, there are many things we don't know about God. I mean, we don't know everything about God. So why can we not know about the Trinity? No,
because 20 is linked to your salvation tree.
Example now in Islam, and Islam, you will find the things that are essential to you going to paradise are very easy to understand, right? For example, one of the things that I find it, like, quite complicated in Islam is Islamic finance. Okay? I don't know if you ever looked into it quite have very tricky, very complicated, very intricate. Imagine, to get to paradise in Islam, you have to understand Islamic Finance, that would be a nightmare. Yeah, those would be empty. But to get the paradise, you have to understand the very easy simple concept like you said, in your introduction, a two year old can understand that there is one God, that's it. That's it, hey, do we need Night,
night classes for that? That's it. There's one God, that's the end of the story. We don't need to explain anything, any other number, you need to explain how they're two, how they're three, how they're seven, you need an explanation. But one God, you don't need an explanation for that. So it can't be that, well, we don't understand many things about God. Therefore, Trinity is one of those things. No Trinity is linked to your salvation, it has to be easy to comprehend, the simple man in the street has to be able to understand the message that is linked to his or her salvation. So so then he did kind of start to go down the rock were saying, you know, well, it's actually a mystery.
You know, it's very mysterious, and God works in mysterious ways. And as you quoted earlier, you know, it says in the Bible, that God is not the author of confusion. So where would this mystery come from? If God didn't author, the confusion? And so just by asking this question, now, the man was beginning to see to step outside of the box, you know, and see that this can't be the case and actually asked him a question. And again, I'm trying to, I'm going to try to quote exactly what I said to him. And what he said to me. I asked him, I'm not asking you which one you prefer, which one you like more which one you love. I'm asking you, which makes more sense to you. The concept of God
in Islam, that there's only one God that's worthy of worship, he has no partner, no children, no relatives, nobody gives birth to him, and he doesn't give birth to anyone, or the concept of God in Christianity, the Triune God, specifically, who is three and physical, different physical locations, but still one, one of them dies, instead of becoming two, there's still one, which is easier to comprehend. And I quote, The Man, the pastor, the leader of his church, he said, the one that is more intellectually satisfying, is the Islamic version now that he continue on that path of worshiping God is three parts, but one in the Trinity, or did he come around to accept it? No, he
continued, he's the one Why, why do people just continue to do that? It's just more based off emotion and just habit. Now, it's a lot of things like sometimes. And I've actually met people who said, Yeah, I like what you're saying. And it makes more sense to me, and I'm more comfortable with it. But this is who I am, or this is what my parents were, and I can't and I'm comfortable this way. You know, many people don't want to leave the comfort zone. Many times people know that it's better for them to stop doing something and they continue. Let's take the easiest example of smokers. Yeah, they know they should stop. But they keep going. Yeah. So it applies to and it can be this is a
really good example, I had actually a situation where the gentleman before I can finish the sentence. He's basically finished it for me that he knows that it kills so many people. He knows he actually said that he went to the class and he saw the, the the lungs at their worst point where it's black, and even the professor who was teaching the class, what outside with him, did you have a smoke after all that? So So sometimes, there are many different things that pull on the individual to not make the change, even if they feel this is the right change, you know, and like I said, there are 1001 different reasons so that you think that's one of the main one, it just now it's who I am,
this is what I do. It's just, I'm gonna do it. For some people. Also, you cannot offset 50 years of belief with 10 minutes of explanation, albeit even if it's excellent explanation, you can offset 50 years of what I used to be so and in the end, you know, the ultimate guidance is in the hands of a love course, can't continue on giving us some some more examples. We'll be right back. I just want to cite a very simple message is the link to one of the beautiful things about our religion of Islam is the emphasis on direct ritual and prayer to God directly. There is no intermediary, the lights will go on after the party, and the party will end. It's very simple and very clear. There are no
superstitious rituals, no strange incantations Time's running out. He might not make it till tomorrow. And this is something that we need to think about.
Have you spoken to other people this was a minister or a deacon or this person that you were talking to? Yeah, yeah. He was like, he was the pastor of his church. Yeah, there was another time and again, I'm going to try to only quote actual things that happened to me personally so that no one thinks they were making things up or trying to be insulting or anything. One time
This this discussion happened over the the radios live on on this show. And and I called him to the show and
a minister called into the show. And basically, my argument was that, you know, Jesus actually was not divine was not a god, he never said he was alright. He never said he was and and this is what we tell people look, go buy the red letter Bible you're familiar with us is the regular Bible but everything spoken by Jesus is in red ink. Okay, go buy it. It's not very expensive. Just go buy the red letter Bible come home, read the letters in read only you're saying this on the radio show now? Yes, I said this on the radio show. And I'm saying it right now to the viewers go and read the red letters, only what Jesus said, and just close the book. Don't look what anybody else said. Do you
walk away with Jesus telling you? I'm God, you need to worship me. I'm divine. You don't you only get that message from other people hinting towards it or, or explicit or explicitly saying it. But when you look at the message of Jesus, the Jews sent priest and leave it to him or when when they asked him, you know, what is the first commandment? He repeated word for word what Moses said beforehand. Here, O Israel, the Lord our God is One Lord, Does he ever once say people, you need to bow down kneel and worship me? He said and worship the Father who is in heaven. The woman called them good teacher, he says, Why do you call me good? It is only the father who's good. So he's, and
he said many times, he'll say, my father who has sent me go to bible.com. And look for those words sent my father sent me and see how many times he says I was sent just like all the prophets that were sent with a message. He gave many lectures, speeches, he preached the sermon of the mount many of these famous, like speeches. And he taught in people's homes along the roadsides, how come not once did he clearly say listen, people, clearly and explicitly, I am God, you need to worship Me and the third Godhead, what do we have today? We have hints to the triune. God, we have things that say, Well, this is an indication that Jesus was God. But look, that's not acceptable. Let's be realistic.
Now. What about the word Trinity? Is it in the Bible? Now the word Trinity is not in the Bible, but I'm willing to let that argument slide. Okay. They might say, well, the word Trinity is not in the Bible. But there are hints to the Trinity. Look, hint, a hint is not acceptable. Suppose now I give you a book, all right, that says, you know, learn French in 30 days, you read the whole book, there is nothing about French. Does that make sense to you? The cover says French Yeah, you read the whole thing. There's nothing about French. If Jesus was the Son of God sent to die for people's sins, and he should be worshipped, he would have made that message very, very clear. There's no way that you
would sit with him and listen to his lectures and not walk away with that message very clearly. You think he would hint to that? So does that make sense? You're dying now and you need someone to save you, you're not going to hit that you need help, you're going to scream out hell definitely doesn't mean and the guy who is there the lifeguard or the Coast Guard, he's not gonna hit the hit some fishermen, he's gonna say, look, we're here, and this is our job to help you. So he wouldn't hint. With all these sermons. He's just hinting to Trinity. That's not accept this is salvation. This is our the most important most important thing, the most important message can't be a hint can't be
can't be vague, and it can't be a mystery. And so that's what we were saying that it cannot be that you look throughout the whole Bible, not once and underline the words, clearly and explicitly. does Jesus say, look, I need to be worshipped, I'm the third Godhead. So what do we have hints towards something of, of the divinity of Jesus. But like I said, hints are not acceptable. So you have things like I am the word or I and the Father are One, or in the beginning, there were three, there are three that bear record in heaven, like this isn't the beginning of the gospel of john,
which the footnote tells you was added in the 16th century. So this is, so this is a lot of times people use? Well, there are three that bear record in heaven. But this was added, you look at the footnote, it's not a secret. It was added later on. I mean, quite recently, actually. So it can't be that the most important message is never clearly spoken about. It's just impossible. He's not there's not a textbook on Earth, that says on the cover, this is what I'm about and you read the whole thing. You can't find it clearly. It has to be clear. How do you how do you tell we won't go into specifics because we don't have that much time. But for the people who will come adamantly and
passionately and full of emotion and zeal, and they'll quote, a dozen, half a dozen verses, and they'll try to justify the Trinity. It's so interesting, really, that as as much whatever is quoted, you can quote something similar as a similar, like passage or description about someone besides Jesus. But here they won't take it literally, for example, john 316, right. The God or Jesus being God's only begotten Son, very popular verse, so the word be gotten here is what sets him apart.
from anyone else being because the believers are children of God, right, according to the gospel of john, but here, the begotten son is what makes him separate and apart from everyone else. Yeah, but we haven't in Psalms chapter two, verse six, God speaks directly directly to David. And he says, You are my son. This day I have big gotten the people don't take this literally, we have the word we gotten here spoken directly from God to David. And yet people don't see him as one of the sons of God. They don't take it literally here. Yeah, but here they do. But but that's not fair. And that's not how it works. This is a really good example. I mean, what do you say to this? Now? What is the
excuses someone will give you why they take it literally in for Jesus peace be upon him. But here they don't, because what they do is they try to attach it to other things that were said by Jesus. Going back to the story of the minister that called in on the show, he said, Jesus clearly said, I am God. Because Jesus said, I am the word I was. So they were everyone was quiet. So then he had to explain how this means I'm God. He says, when you go to Genesis, so now, this is 900 pages earlier in the Old Testament, so you got to somehow link it, you got to link so you got to go all the way back to the old testament to Genesis, the first book, then it says, In the beginning was the Word
and the Word was with God. And Jesus now said, I'm the word that means that's him. He was with God. So I asked him a question said, Listen. And again, I'm telling you exactly what I told them. And I said, I'm going to take the Bible right now and go out into the street and talk to people who are Christian. Okay, and maybe they're not very knowledgeable about the Bible, or well versed, but I'm going to open it to that page, and show everyone in the street. Look, Jesus said, I'm the word. What do you get from that? What do you think the average person in the street will understand from the word, oh, that means Jesus was a third Godhead, and he needs to be worshipped. You can't get all
that information with this, until you make the 900 page jump to the beginning and force it into that link force, force. And that's why when you tell him, David was a Begotten Son of God, they don't link it, but the force any other link, because they, because the mindset is to believe the frame of mind is that Jesus was to be God and sort of God. So even if there's something hinting to anything, they will look at it that way, for example, where it says, I and the Father are one. Now, what does that mean? One in purpose? Or one literally, obviously, it's not literal, because the father is in the heavens, and he was on Earth. So what does it mean? Or when he says, I, there's no way to the
Father except through me, you know, as a Muslim, that makes perfect sense to you. Yeah. Jesus said, the only way to the Father is through me. It makes perfect sense. If God sent a prophet to Earth to guide you. Are you going to bypass him and find your way to God? No. And bypass that Prophet, it's got to be through him. He was sent to guide you. That's all it means. But when when you're in the mindset of believing Jesus was the Son of God, everything that hints to it, you will take it as such. Tell us now, we had said earlier that we sincerely we want to deliver the truth. We're not trying to step on toes, nobody hurt nobody's feelings. Now that somebody is being sincere, open
minded, humble hearted, and they say, you know what this man makes sense. It looks at his wife, the wife was or the husband say, Hey, this is making sense. What do they do now? deliver? But, you know, what? Where do they go from here? Talk to us deliver the true concept of God? Christ. Excellent. First of all, I do want to say that the the message of one God is extremely consistent throughout the Bible, Old and New Testament included in the Old Testament, so many times he will talk about it or God will warn people of taking others in worship besides Him. All the prophets would tell people to worship one God, only God, according the Old Testament says, I am your Lord besides me, there is
no God. Suddenly, in the New Testament, we discover that there are three supposedly, now this actually is a jump in a diversion from what we have learned. We've been learning all these 1000s of years of the Prophet saying, there's one God only there's no other God, you're the Lord, your God is One Lord. Suddenly we hear three. But then Jesus Himself didn't say there's three, he said, worship the fact that he should worship God. He tells people to worship God. He said, there's only one Lord, same thing to the Jesus that Moses said before. And so what happens now is you're starting to see the consistent message of all the prophets sent by God, this consistent message of Jesus read the
lip, read letters, don't take my word for it. And this is the message of the Prophet that came after Jesus as well. The Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu Sallam in Arabia, also come came and called people to worship only one God, who has no partner who has no children who has no relatives or anything of that sort. Nobody gives birth to him, and he does not give birth and also didn't change the basic message of the 10 commandments and everything stays consistent. So you're actually following
What would be the true message of Jesus by accepting the message of his brother and prophet muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, thank you very much for being with us and helping to make these things very clear, very simple, one God.
And we cleared up the confusion about the Trinity is nowhere in the Bible, none of the messengers taught it needed Jesus peace be upon him who is so beloved to our hearts. He is a mighty messenger. He's not a son of God, he's not God, but he was one who taught to people the same way Moses did and Abraham and the last and final message sent to mankind. They taught the same message, submit to the One God submit your entire self to His Will not you will, in Simple English, do what God wants you to do on his terms. We'll see you next time tune in every week to the deen show. We're here at the same time, same channel. Until then Salam aleikum, peace be unto you.
Knows speech is better than to do that we call people to Allah and to do the word no speech is better. No, nothing is better than that. Is it true that if one person and Allah giving you the ability to guide someone, the last permission the creator's permission that is better than everything in this world, but in the whole world and everything that's in it in another generation is better than the best of wealth, but if we really felt that it would not be good, I'll give an example. And this is something that we encourage all the MSA all the dollar organizations, the machines to get this we want to print more we give the sort of analysis for free for free for free
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