Jeffrey Lang – The Way to Salvation 176
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AI: Transcript ©
Either side, give them give them the courtesy
of the I want to clarify one thing
with you. Would it be appropriate
to end the meeting with, an interfaith
prayer?
No?
Yeah.
Makes no it it
it makes no difference to me.
Why don't you go ahead and start?
I'd rather they would like you to start.
You know, why why don't I sit in
the middle because,
he sort of looks to me to, to
to
Okay.
Okay.
May I have your attention, please?
We
are
ready to start
the last session in this program.
I'd like to
thank you all for
being here and,
start
our last session, which is titled
The Way
to Salvation.
We,
again,
the
panel is,
Reverend Warren Chastain,
Doctor.
Woodbury,
and Doctor Harold Magura for the Christian side.
And for the Muslim side,
we have, Doctor Hussain Mursi,
Doctor Jamal
Badawi,
Imam Sheikhar Al Said,
and Doctor Jeffrey
Lang. We, gonna start with a presentation
of 10 minutes from each side,
and then we'll move to the
second part of the
discussion after that.
Doctor. Jemaat, by the way, is going to
start his presentation first.
Thank you.
I'd like first to start by,
saying a brief word on,
what is meant by salvation
in a Muslim perspective.
The closest
Quranic term
to the English salvation
is najah
najah.
As you read in the Quran, so the
So the the term najah is there.
For the Muslims, the most important aspect of
it
stems from the belief in the life hereafter
accountability and responsibility before Allah
and,
working
to
gain his pleasure
and achieve the bliss and the life hereafter
and to be saved from the punishment for
those who rebel
against
Allah.
This does not mean that it is restricted
only to the life hereafter,
as
the pursuit of the pleasure of Allah, as
indicated in the first presentation on Tauhid,
is actually salvation also in this life, in
one sense, when we obey Allah,
when we follow the way of life that
he ordained for us,
it also
helps us to avoid some of the problems
and difficulties we face in this life. And
and, as you know, some of those difficulties
actually stems from rebellion. When we drink, for
example, we suffer.
When we commit moral
offenses, it also affects our health and our
ethics and well-being.
As, we did in several topics before,
I'll speak briefly about
the areas of similarities as I see them
and,
talk about the differences again as a discussion
starter.
1st,
on the area of similarity,
I can think of 5,
at least.
1, that as human beings we are not
perfect,
we are
capable
of obedience and disobedience
to Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala.
And that stems from the Qur'anic description of
the nature of the human being created from
clay that represents the material part.
Yet it speaks also about the human receiving
the spirit of God.
Rah. Allah breathe into the human something of
his spirit.
So there is a spiritual element. So there
is something that pushes you up. There is
something that pulls you down.
And as such, the human, as the Quran
describes,
has guided Allah and inspired the human the
knowledge of the right and wrong.
The second area of
similarity is that we should not acquiesce
to that negative part
in us,
that we should do something about it. Our
Christian brethren call that overcoming sin, but that's
fine.
Basically, we agree that we should do something
about it. We have to confront this problem.
A third issue of of similarity is often
confused and presented by some as an area
of difference, which it's not.
I often heard, some Christian speakers say that,
in Christianity, salvation is by grace.
In Islam, it is by works. And they
keep going on and on, coaching Paul and
others that, you know, works are nothing. It
wouldn't lead you.
In fact, prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him,
addressed that issue
when one time
told
his followers
that none of you will enter paradise
because of your righteous deeds, means just because
of your righteous deeds.
They said, even you, Messenger of Allah, he
said, even me, had it not been for
the grace and mercy
of Allah.
So let's not make a mistake about it.
Sometimes some writers give a symbolical story of
someone who goes to was a very saintly
person,
all his life avoided sins, all his life
living a life of sacrifice and charity,
and then going to paradise and Allah tells
him or going to the hereafter Allah tells
him, would you like for me to hold
you accountable by your deeds or according to
my mercy?
So the man gets too boastful, he's very
pure, He says, no, no. My my deeds,
of course, I've got lots of records there,
you know, good balance.
And then Allah put all his deeds in
one
scale and put one blessing that Allah gave
him, just one like the and the other,
and the scale tips in the favor of
the ahi.
So I think the man said, All right,
please, please
take me according to your mercy, not by
my deeds. I think this is an issue
that sometimes is a problem with communication.
The, first point that I think, again, in
my perception
we agree upon,
is that obedience to Allah is not to
be equated with rebellion
against Him.
Faith in Allah is not to be equated
with rejection
of him.
And at such, we cannot just use the
term grace
without also
trying to manifest
our belief and our faith in Allah in
reality. So the grace is there, it's available,
but it has also the
indicators, like when you're going in a road,
there are some signs on the road that
would lead you to that particular grace which
is abundantly
available.
And one of those requirements,
the most important to start with, is to
have the correct faith in Allah.
And that's why the Quran says Allah will
never forgive that anyone associate others with Him,
but He will forgive anything short of that
and quotes Jesus, peace be upon him, saying
the same thing.
Because it is one of the greatest offenses
against God even if one tried to do
good deeds,
to reject
true and correct faith in Allah or to
join others with Him in His exclusive
divine attributes.
The second one is Al Ahmad al Salih
and the Quran always speaks about faith and
good deeds. That if indeed there is faith
in Allah and love of Allah,
one should try to express that
love and that commitment
in actual
behavior,
in the way we conduct
our lives. Not to say that we can
achieve perfection that's impossible,
but to show, to to give the acid
test of that,
faith.
And, again, I say that some of my
Christian brethren may comment on that later, but
in the book of James, for example, when
he says that, faith without action is buried,
the 5th, area of similarity I can see,
some
of the, ingredients in the story of Adam
and Eve
and eating from the forbidden tree. I'm not
saying that all details are the same. I'm
not saying that all important points are the
same, but at least the basic notion
of temptation is there.
The areas of differences I see are basically,
4.
1,
from my understanding of Christian theology,
Adam and Eve were created absolutely perfect.
Perfect. And when they ate from the tree,
they became imperfect. As Paul puts it, you
know, that when one man sinned,
all of humanity sinned. And that's again, he
says, because one man died, all humanity is,
saved.
The Muslims simply would say that this is
not necessarily
the same concept presented in the Quran.
You can say that in the human is
created perfect in a sense just in terms
of human perfection that Allah created him in
the best molds. You find reference to that
in the Quran.
But in terms of the, perfection in the,
moral sense, in terms of behavior,
The Quran indicates that the human is weak.
The human is created. He's weak. He's tempted.
He's not.
And the Muslim would say that if indeed
Adam were
Adam and Eve were perfect,
it would be a contradiction to say that,
they ate from the forbidden tree because the
perfect is incapable of disobedience
or imperfection because eating is imperfection.
Muslims say that Adam
and Eve ate from the tree because
they are imperfect.
The second,
area of of difference is the role of
Eve. The Quran does not point the finger
towards Eve as the one who tempted Adam.
The third area of difference is the question
of inheritance of sin or original sin.
The Quran is clear.
No sword carries the burden
of, another.
The 4th point, because my time is running
quickly,
is that, my understanding that in Christian,
biblical
concept, there seem to be a constant tension
between two attributes
of Allah,
justice
and and and,
mercy or compassion.
On one hand, God wanted to punish Adam
because he's just god and then he wanted
to forgive him because he is a merciful
God. Sin must be paid for and so
on.
From a Muslim perspective and understanding, there is
no such tension. It is true that Allah
has both attributes,
but we understand it differently.
Because Allah is just,
he created the human imperfect,
and at such it would be unfair to
expect him to achieve perfection, to achieve closeness
to God.
That would be unfair.
But a person would be required
to exert exert some effort to have the
correct belief to strive against evil within himself.
This is the so called in Islam, the
self purification.
One can never achieve perfection, but one should
really,
try. And part of the justice of Allah
is to give allowance
to this kind of weakness that he himself
created us. And mercy also requires that he
should respond,
and the Muslim always begins
any action in the surahs of the Quran
with in
the name of Allah, most compassionate, most merciful.
Allah is not that vengeful god that just
want to destroy and punish. He gives us
ample opportunity.
And even though he is both merciful and
just,
as the Quran says,
his mercy is far in abundance,
it's a more important aspect to look at
because his mercy
includes,
everything.
In fact, the Quran ties between the love
of Allah,
of mankind, and his forgiveness.
Allah is the forgiving,
the intense
in his loving compassion.
So in that sense, for the Muslim, there's
no, question of need of any
blood sacrifice for atonement of sins. All is
required is to have the correct
belief in Allah, to strive. And whenever we
do something wrong, we make tawba,
repentance,
by stopping the evil, regretting it, and having
determination not to do it. And if that
sin involves the rights of others, returning the
rights of others. Just simple and straightforward direct
relationship with the creator.
Yes.
I was just asked if I would first,
define
the concept
spiritual wholeness,
spiritual health in many ways.
Jesus said, I am come that you might
have life and have it more abundantly.
And so this would be the essence
of salvation is that fullness of life, which
is both in this world
and the world to come.
When Jesus
came,
he said the kingdom of,
kingdom of God is at hand, meaning the
kingly rule of God is here, but it
also is to be more fully completed at
a later day
so that this life,
this rule of God, this expression of god's
kingdom is here now and we can participate
in, but it will have its fuller completion,
at his some second coming,
and in the days to come.
Now there are many similarities,
and we can nuance these later.
Both Christians and Muslims, as I understand it,
see humans as rejecting,
God,
of needing repentance,
of needing faith.
Although in faith,
although faith and works are both important as
has been pointed out for both of us,
I would my understanding of Islam is that
faith
leads into salvation
and for the Christian,
excuse me, not faith, I mean, works,
leads into salvation.
And, for the Christian, works lead out of
salvation.
Protestant perspective would be that,
works are the fruit
of this new life,
within us.
And then both Christian
and, Muslim would see the need for submission
to God and his will and praise
as a proper response.
But what I'd like to do is,
our view of salvation to a certain extent
is conditioned by our view of the
human problem as has already been,
indicated.
Again, there is a tremendous basis of similarity
here,
although the covenantal
idea that is God related to humans through
a covenant,
is not a central concept in my study
of the Quran as it is a central
concept in the Bible. It is there,
certainly.
And, this is
a covenant between God and humans.
And because that covenant is a personal one
with God, sin is seen as rebellion
against that personal God.
Because this covenant
contains
a law law and,
certainly the 10 commandments other than keeping the
Sabbath day,
which is changed,
in Islam. But other than the Sabbath day
prescription,
the 10 commandments
would be found in both cases,
and the development of biblical law and chronic
law is quite similar.
So,
this covenant involving a law means sin is
disobedience
to that law and then as in both
cases, this covenant
and, is a revealed one, sin becomes disbelief
of that which is revealed.
However, as we look at the human condition,
we see, although I would, I think we
need to nuance,
some of the way you described a a
biblical view and we will get to that,
later.
Certainly,
Christian understanding
is that humans have a bias
bias to the wrong.
And they even as we look at the
Koran,
most people go astray and so forth. So,
we see a bias to the wrong,
rather than,
humans being in just a more neutral or
even good
condition.
And, this leads to our understanding
of what is necessary
or what the Bible describes as what is
necessary for a solution.
Both of us see the need
for the law of God.
The law of God which tells us how
to please God.
However,
Paul brings out the problem that,
the law requires
the righteousness
it doesn't give us the power to fulfill.
So it tells us what we need to
do, but it does not provide the power
for us to do it.
And so in both the Bible
and as I read the Quran, most people
go astray.
But
we also need forgiveness.
This is recognized,
by both of us. Although the Christian would
see a means
of,
forgiveness that God,
forgives
by means of, in some way by means
of the death of Jesus Christ.
But,
in my understanding,
the unique part
about
the Christian understanding
of, the solution
would be,
the giving of new life
or new power.
You see, because if
we have a bias to the wrong, it's
not enough just to tell us what the
right is
and to, tell us to do it. We
need
a new power, a new life,
a new spirit. Now John describes this,
quotes our Lord in John 3 is saying,
you must be born again. It requires a
new birth.
Paul uses more the terms of the spirit
of God, but which again gives this idea
of a divine power from without,
coming into the person, transforming
them, and making them evil
increasingly,
to
overcome
this sin which the law tells them they
has, but have, but does not give them
the power
to
fully overcome.
And, so this is what I would see
as
a,
the major
difference
in my understanding,
between the 2.
Now we can
go on from there, I think, in the
discussion, but this would, outline the the basic
problem and the solution as I see it.
I I think we still have a little
more time left to us if, either of
my colleagues want to, add something.
Okay. I guess I just would like to
say something, add something from the beginnings again
of,
sin.
The Christian sees sin
as not
merely,
weakness.
The Christians see sin as a fundamental
basic
rebellion.
Sin with a high hand.
It's
the,
it's no it's not a smaller matter. It's
something that is,
intensely,
rebellious
against the living God. So even though the
act itself
may seem to be just one sin
and the and the beginnings of sin seem
to be,
rather,
a very small incident in man.
It it it carries implications
that are truly vast. And so perhaps,
the the Christian would say, we see sin
not nearly as a weakness in man,
which could perhaps be easily corrected
by some type of in course correction or
something like that. But a fundamental rebellion
against God, which requires
some,
unusual
efforts and some unusual things to occur for
men to be reconciled with God again.
Either similarities or difference. 1,
in dealing with
the bias, the human bias towards error, and
you said that the Quran also speaks about
that. Oh, yes. Actually, the
most people, even though you try to guide
them, do not believe.
But, I think it would be helpful to
make a distinction here between
the collective level and individual level.
On a collective level, you could say, yes,
throughout history of humanity,
past and contemporary,
we see an ample evidence
of that bias
towards evil.
But I must just add that, in on
an individual level, we cannot assume that each
and every human being has that more tendency
or bias towards sin and evil.
We find in the lives and the behavior
of, great prophets of God, the great holy
people throughout history,
actually could say they have a bias even
more towards closeness to Allah and special, purification.
And I must also add something here that
the,
the,
formula has been already given in the Quran
in one of the short Suras, Surat Al
Asr.
It says, by the passage of time,
mankind is indeed at a loss.
Lafikus
losing. It's at a loss. And then it
says, except,
those who believed in Allah,
did good deeds, and exhorted each other
in goodness and in persuades.
So it does not give a blank condemnation
of the humans as such, but it makes
the exception and provides the opportunity if those
criteria
are met.
The second, issue,
is just a minor one, which I just
covered very quickly,
is the
question of new power.
Maybe I'll I'll combine 2 and 3 together.
The issue of the power that one requires
beyond mere knowledge of what is right and
what is wrong.
I think I have a slightly different perspective
from doctor Woodbury in this
because the Quran also speak about that power
in more than one,
line.
One ayah which is quite amazing, it says,
whoever had faith in God,
Allah will guide his heart.
It's not a matter of difference, really, between
Islam and Christianity. And like I said earlier,
in the first session, we're discovering more and
more
similarities which has been masked
by the attitude of keeping the 2 communities
separate and claiming exclusiveness for certain issues.
Because what this ayah really implies is that
once we have the true faith in Allah,
Allah will guide our hearts and will help
us to do the right thing. Another,
equally relevant ayah here,
Allah says, those who strove
and struggle for our sake, we will guide
them our ways,
which that means also the power. You try
it. You try. Allah will give you the
power to overcome those,
those difficulties.
And also the other aspect,
relating to that is the concept of tawbah,
what Doctor. Woodbury referred to as
the rebirth or new birth, as quoting from
the New Testament.
Muslims do not use that term in particular,
rebirth. But there's something very close to that,
the question of Tawba, a person who's lived
in,
disobedience and rebellions to Allah, either
incorrect or lack of belief or
rebellion or both,
committing himself and coming back and drawing close
to Allah subhanahu ta'ala,
that could could perhaps be analogous,
at least in one respect, to this idea
of rebirth, of renewal,
of the mithaq,
or covenant, between Allah and mankind.
Yes.
I would say that
itself. I would tell us what to do,
but we are talking about,
more than guidance.
We are talking about,
a new birth.
Furthermore,
which as I understand the word would be
repentance,
is again not new birth.
That is,
repenting, turning around,
changing direction.
It is not new life.
And so, I think that that basic distinction
as I read the Quran and as I
read the Bible,
is still there. And I and I think
it's a very,
significant,
distinction. And again,
I I find it hard,
to
when the Quran
sort of 12 verse 103
and numbers of others which you can quote
yourself,
most men are not believers. 12106,
most of them do not believe in God.
131,
most men do not believe.
It's
hard for me to reconcile,
that we are born either good or neutral
if most people are going astray. This to
me suggests,
that,
there
there's a hint of some
some some problem
there.
Another hint of this would be,
even when we do good,
in surah 12 verse 53,
here Joseph,
generally understood to be Joseph speaking.
After he has rejected
the temptation,
to
sin with Potiphar's wife.
He says the soul is an inciter to
evil.
And so he realizes
that even
when I do the good,
there's something down in there that is an
inciter
to wrong
and I would see this again as a
hint
that,
we really need something
more,
than right guidance.
We need new life
at least from a Christian perspective, and I
would say a biblical perspective,
if I'm correct. Okay. A few comments on
this. Well, first of all,
I never suggested,
to Christianize the Islamic concept of Tawba
and say that it is exactly the same
as the Christian,
mean by rebirth.
What I meant here is that when it
boils down to essentials, really, when the Christian,
to me, speaks about a new life or
a new birth, to me as a Muslim,
it sounds very much very much analogous,
though not necessarily identical,
to the person who already sincerely
committed himself to repent and re renew his
covenant with Allah because that Tauba itself gives
a great deal of power. When Ammar made
that Tauba on his way to kill the
prophet and became a
follower, his life totally transformed.
So from one event in his life, one
Tauba,
it had the same impact or greater impact
than what
sometimes people say, oh, I have been reborn
again. I have a new power. Because, indeed,
he had a new power. Indeed, his life
was totally transformed.
Secondly, I didn't say that the man the
Quran say that man is born neutral.
That was not the, the wording I used.
I simply said that Allah says in the
Quran,
that the human being is guided. Allah guides
him, inspires into the human
the knowledge and the capability also of obedience
or or disobedience.
The other aspect that you related,
which is the more significant point that you
raised, I'm glad that you brought it forth
because, again, it reflects
more on the difficulty of understanding the language
of the Quran and the subtle meaning
and
the familiarity with the exegesis of the Quran.
And that's the question of guidance. You're saying
that guidance
does not
necessarily mean helping us to do the right
thing.
That's not true. In fact, in the Arabic
language, there are two related meanings to guidance,
and I'll give you documentation from the Quran
to this.
One meaning of guidance is to show the
way, to point. This is the right way.
This is the wrong way. I ask you
to use that way.
That meaning is there. There's no question about
that.
But another meaning of guidance, even though the
same original Arabic word is used, hidayah,
means to help us
on the path once we have decided to
take the right way,
I. E, to get the power,
the divine power, to move on the right
direction after you have chosen that direction. Evidence
from the Quran, look at this interesting
As to the people of Tamuz,
we guided them, Allah says, but they preferred
blindness to guidance. That's very interesting because somebody
would say, how come the Quran says if
Allah guides someone who will never be misled?
I think that's mistaken understanding of what's the
usage of the term here.
What it means here that for the people
of Tamud, Allah guided them in a sense
of showed them
the right from the wrong yet they deliberately
rejected God
and they preferred blindness to guide us a
more amazing aya in the Quran
as to those who have been guided, Allah
increased them in guidance.
You find the specialists like doctor Shahra,
Hamid Shahrahi, for example, whose specialty actually is
in the analysis and the of the Quran,
said, this is the most amazing
expression of the shades of meaning of guidance.
Because
once you say, Allah guided me, what else
do you need? I mean, that's the ultimate
thing that you need. Why increasing guidance? It
said in one
term, even though the same term is used
in the same ayat. In the first instance,
it says, as to those who
accepted
the guidance of Allah,
started on the road,
showed initiative, and they have been responsive to
the call of Allah.
Allah increased them in guidance, I. E. Helped
them
to
tread the path toward them, I. E, give
them the power. So they say linguistically, actually,
Hidayah has two meanings: to show the way
as well as to give the power.
Thank you, Doctor.
Woodbills, please.
That, contrasting it with blindness, choosing blindness,
again, would confirm
that guidance
means guidance.
You see, they chose blindness. They chose not
to see the way. I don't see that
power.
I don't see that power is involved in
this.
And even the second verse,
if God guides you and you follow, you
then get more guidance. You get further guidance
along the way. I would see that as,
if you will be are obedient to God
in the guidance he gives you, he gives
you guidance
further in the future, but you take for
the second step. I don't see the concept
of
of power here.
I would be happy if I did,
because,
you know, the closer we can come to
the same solution,
the better off we we all are. But,
I must say I'm I'm not convinced,
that there
is a new power, a new life,
a new spirit there
from from what I've heard. He's doctor Jamal
Badal.
He's leaving in a few minutes. So let
will take only 1 minute and then doctor
Badu can follow-up.
You know, as well as I do, the
the term born again
in the Bible,
the proper meaning of it means
lifted from above or generated
from above.
It is not a term that people can
just use in their life
but their behavior and their faith and their
contact is completely contrary to it.
Jimmy Swaggart
claimed that he is born again
and he was getting guidance from from God,
yet he was spending his evenings with the
prostitutes in the Redistricting.
Jim Bakker
claimed that he's born again,
yet he was using the money
of the
chair to fly his secretary
to Florida
and Ravenloft.
So the term born again here is not
a magical
solution
that will put people in heaven.
If the term born again means
the individual
receive
guidance,
new power,
then you are talking about the Qur'anic explanation
for Hidayah,
then you are talking about the Quranic explanation
for guidance coming from God. People do not
accomplish
guidance on their own.
This is one point.
The other point, doctor Jamal, by the way,
made it amply clear
that the term
of what Muslims believe in is faith, number
1.
And that faith, if you truly have faith
in God,
that will be a reflection on your conduct,
what we call as good works. The prophet,
peace be upon him, said faith is not
a matter of wish or desire.
Faith is what dwells deep down in your
heart
and your word conduct is a witness to
it. I have seen people who claim to
be born again
and they go around saying, I have faith
in God, I have faith in
God, yet they are committing every atrocity in
town.
Why didn't their faith
lead them to lead a better life?
But actually, the term in the bible, if
I understand it correctly, in the Greek means
lifted from above,
generated from above,
given power from above, and that is exactly
what Muslims are talking about when we speak
that guidance comes from God. You cannot accomplish
it in a moment. Thank you, doctor Musa.
I would just respond to that by saying
it is not just, a power from above
operating
on something which presently exists.
God is in the business of taking that
which presently
exists and transforming
it.
The fundamental idea in Christianity
is that there is a new heavens and
earth that God is preparing
and those creatures that live in that new
heavens and earth need to be ecologically
fit to that new spiritual domain, that new
dimension
and this requires a transformation
of nature.
So it's not just taking something as it
is
and moving it in a different direction,
maybe a, a more positive direction toward God,
which would be very fine. But before you
even can
begin to move in the right direction toward
God, there needs to occur a radical transformation.
And what happens in the new birth is
the the beginning of that
and now you have referred to some people
who claim this.
The person who is new, newborn who does
receive the power of God operating in them,
that power does not come upon them in
such a way
that they cannot resist. It's not as though
God
imparts to us His Spirit and His power
in such a way that thereafter
we can never sin
or a person can never do wrong.
So you're
using these 2,
I think,
it biases things because I can immediately say,
well, there are people going around assassinating
people in the name of Islam.
You have terrorists,
and you probably are unhappy if if if
Arab peoples are associated with terrorists and we
agree with that and we,
we try to,
explain to Christians who might have such ideas.
But
to but to then bring out,
Baker and Swaggart,
is a parallel to that. So we appreciate
let's keep it. Muslims
not Arabs.
Parallel to Muslims.
And Okay. Is what what he matters. Well,
it's basically,
I could pick out unfair
or people who are not the best representatives
of Islam
and then you would probably feel that is
an unfair argument. So
our our point should get back and deal
with those who adequately represent the I think
this point is clear. It's very clear and
it is very highly appreciated and believe me,
we go out of our way to explain
to our brothers and sisters also who are
Muslims
that not all Christians
are, are a reflection of what happens in
this society of AIDS, and adultery and *
and insist so it is mutual and we
do appreciate what you said. However, I heard
2 completely different and contradictory
explanations
from the 2 gentlemen
about what the term
salvation or what the term born again or
what term guidance.
May I suggest something contradictory, so I'm asking
for more clarification here because Doctor Woodbury said
one thing, Doctor Chestain is a completely different
thing. Can we ask for more clarifications?
May I may I suggest something? Doctor. Jamal
Burnham is leaving in 5 minutes. So what
I'd like you to do
is to
direct your
main objection
to the concept of Salvation Islam
to Doctor. Juman, by the way. And I
would ask him to reply to this main
objection,
and then we'll take it further from that
You haven't had a chance. You haven't had
a chance. Or Doctor. Or Doctor. Or,
Reverend Chastain,
also,
I almost thought you had we agreed that
you're gonna be the representative or the leader
for the group.
I I hope that what I have to
say sort of speaks to to what you
said, but, it seems to me that in
in the Christian faith,
what we
have experienced is that we've had the guidance,
we've had the law, we've had community, we've
had many of the,
mercies of God
came to the community, came through the community
to the world,
but that somehow, in a sense, what law
could not do, what guidance could not do,
that God himself has accomplished for us
in what happened in Jesus the Christ. That
is, the righteousness
that we need
is not righteousness that we can generate in
ourselves even with all our good intentions, with
all our good works, with all our faith,
correct faith, as you said,
that somehow this righteousness
must come to us as a gift
from God.
And it's a gift that's freely given.
It's a gift of grace,
of mercy.
What we need to do, I think, is
through faith is simply to accept
this righteousness of God
and then live it out
in our life as best we can.
And
it seems to me that in in Jesus
the Christ
the very form of the cross
suggests that this righteousness
is is all inclusive,
all embrace it.
Even on the cross
Jesus said, Father forgive them for they know
not what they do.
I don't know. What bothers me when when
when the prophet Mohammed marches with an army
of 10,000 back to Mecca
and somehow there is the the the the
the us and the them, those who win
and those who lose.
It's very much like with Moses,
when the Hebrews rejoiced,
the Egyptians were drowned. You see? Anytime you
move into a political mode,
into
a,
yeah,
a state kind of an Ummah,
that then in a sense you you have
the in and the out, the as and
the them.
That in in Christ
God is offering his righteousness even to those
who are crucifying Jesus.
There is this kind of perfection,
perfectness about God
which is not just morally perfect
but actually all inclusive.
Be ye perfect,
said Jesus, as your Father in Heaven is
perfect.
Not necessarily morally so because any of us,
I think, would feel we could we would
fall short of that. But the context there
is that God sends his reign on the
just and the unjust, his son on the
good and the evil,
and and then, if you salute only your
own kind, what more do you do than
the pagans?
Be perfect, I. E, be as inclusive
as your father in heaven. Now somehow this
gift then of righteousness is not what can
be earned but what can be given and
it's freely offered to all people. Thank you,
doctor Badri. Doctor Badri, sir. I'd like it
to be my last comment,
for the time being.
Well, first of all, I'd like to clarify
something for Doctor. Woodbury.
The verse I quoted from the Koran to
the people of Thamoun
that we guided them, they preferred blindness. Blindedness
here means basically
that rejection of Allah. In other words, Allah
invited them to accept him, but they rejected
him. So they that's what blindness means, rejection.
The opposite
of blindness
is acceptance.
And in that sense then, one level of
guidance or one meaning of guidance is acceptance.
And that acceptance
would lead to that power.
The power here is not necessarily something,
you know, that has never been there or
doesn't have a basis or ingredients
or genesis in the human creation because as
indicated earlier, the Quran says that the human
is created with the potential
of good doing good and evil. In other
words, the power is there,
but it has simply to be tapped.
And that tapping of the power begins first
with the acceptance of Allah, and that acceptance
give that power
to fulfill the will of Allah.
The other aspect about the,
gifts
of,
the power or rebirth coming from Allah in
Christian understanding,
Well, this is basically, again, what the Muslim
would say,
that the power is there as a potential
tapped by the acceptance of Allah, reinforced
by his support and giving us more power
to fulfill his will.
But acceptance
must have also its
requirements.
And the acid test
of, of that acceptance is to have that
faith in Allah and to strive for self
education
and to do his will on this Earth.
The final comment I'd like to make is
that
in the last comments we heard, I think
we have heard something rather,
selective both about Jesus and Mohammed. And I
don't think, with all due respect, that this
comparison really is a fair comparison,
because
you refer, for example, to Jesus reportedly saying,
oh, God, forgive my people for they know
not
what they're doing.
Yet, talking to a Jewish rabbi, he would
tell you that, look, in the New Testament,
there are many places where Jesus make his
curses also on those who are evildoers.
And some of these people did say he
speaks about love, but didn't say a word
of love against the Jews. He's always condemning
them. So I'm I'm just saying that not
to say
that Jesus
actually said that because, like I said, the
Quran is our criteria,
and we think of him higher than even
what the New Testament depicts him, except for
the issue of deification.
But I'm simply saying that if we want
to be selective,
we can only choose what seems to suit
a particular
argument. On the other hand, when it came
to Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam,
you referred to the entry in Makkah, to
Makkah, victorious.
But there are 2 with 10,000 people. But
there are 2 points here that seem to
have been overlooked. Number 1, so what?
What is wrong with
finally people gaining their freedom?
What is wrong with people who have been
driven
unjustly from their homes, coming back to their
homes? Isn't that fulfilling the will of God?
Isn't that God given rights?
Would it be better just to be meek
and accept, oppression?
It's not a matter of triumphant attitude or
we versus they. It is simply restoration of
justice,
which is, as you definitely
will admit, is one of the attributes of
God. So what is wrong with that?
But even when we mention about the entry
of the prophet into Mecca, let's not be
selective also. Let's stay again how he entered.
He had absolute power when he entered. He
could have slaughtered without mercy
all those who opposed him.
Yet
he enters in great humbleness, not triumphant attitude,
in great humbleness with all that great victory,
lowering his head
on his coming before he dismounted,
making such that making frustration and humbleness and
humility and thanks to Allah he goes to
the Kaaba
and the people who persecuted
him and his followers and killed them gathered
waiting for the destiny the bloodshed the bloodbath
yet he stands there and says, what do
you think I'm going to do to you?
They say, you are an honored son
or an honored brother, son of an honored
brother, and they say to them,
You go. You're free. There have been only
very few exceptional people who have been
indicted in very cruel,
crimes, but otherwise,
the masses, all these thousands and thousands of
people,
were let
free. Yet,
my last comment, which I think would be
of interest to you also, so that when
we make comparisons, again, we don't be too
selective about it.
You quoted Jesus, peace be upon him, as
saying, oh, God, forgive my people for they
know not what they're doing.
Do you realize
that the exact words
were said by prophet Muhammad peace be upon
him when he was insulted
and when he went after it
to invite people to Islam,
he suffered.
The suffering of Jesus was there. The suffering
of Muhammad salallahu alaihi wasalam was there. He
suffered.
They mocked at him.
They dealt with him in great deal of
disrespect.
They sent the children
to pet him with stones
until he was all bleeding. His feet were
bleeding.
He was in great pain.
And then
angel Gabriel comes to him and he said,
I received
the command from Allah that if you tell
me,
if you tell me, just give me the
okay
with the word of Allah, I will crush
those people between these two mountains. Just say
yes.
In all that suffering, pain, and insult,
the prophet says, who knows?
Maybe among their
descendants,
they will come a generation who will worship
Allah. And then he said that that famous
word, oh, God, oh, Allah,
forgive
my people
for they know not what they're doing.
This is the character of all prophets, Jesus,
Mohammed, and all prophets. And let's not have
a triumphant attitude in saying, this is somebody
higher than others. Mohammed,
Jesus,
Abraham, and all others are all brothers. They
have the basic same character. They have the
same basic inspiration they receive from Allah, Subhanahu
Wa Ta'ala.
I must say that I have seen very
pleased to be around
with my brethren
in Islam and my brethren in humanity,
and I enjoyed the discussion very much.
And I seek forgiveness of Allah first and
your forgiveness
in case at some point
I might have not been
as calm
as I should have been. So
there was no intention whatsoever of offending anyone.
And
we all have that shortcomings.
So I hope you'll forgive me if something
like that happened to me.
And I'd like to thank you all for
your participation and pray that Allah would shed
light
in our minds
and our hearts and lead us to the
straight path.
Next week.
On behalf of the Christian side, let I
would like to express our appreciation
for your spirit and your contribution
and your fellowship during this time. Thank you.
And,
like kindly to
one of you take the The comment. It's
your turn to make a comment.
Well, perhaps the first
Well,
the righteousness being given by God, the victory
over
sin and,
the power of evil
being given to us by God,
is very crucial, I think, to the Christian
understanding
that,
it's not we who overcome
evil.
It's not we even with the law, with
guidance,
with
the community who can actually overcome the power
of evil within us.
It is God Himself
who overcomes that power in the Cross,
in Christ
and then it's given to us, it's offered
to us
as a free gift.
And for Christians, I think this is very,
very crucial, very
important. I wish, sir, doctor Betty, we had
addressed that issue because that to me was
really the the fundamental issue. It it will
be addressed
in full in detail.
Very good. Well, I I
I don't know about that. I just wanted
to make a comment.
We do have a different perspective on this,
and I don't think, you know, it's our
job to prove that we're right or to
prove you're wrong. I I think the people
in the audience would just like to plainly
hear that our our different point of view.
The Muslim doesn't have the same idea. He
his vision of guidance and God and his
guidance is more a blessed vision in the
Quran of that
in Surah An Nur when it talks about
God as the great guiding light.
And, for the Muslim, this is the sort
of the image he has in his mind.
This tremendous light shining over and all. And
through by turning to that light, by submitting
to that light, that great guiding light
gives him not just the law but empowers
him and that light
fills him and he pursues
his spiritual growth
and etcetera.
So I would say the only real difference,
I would say, is we both, I think,
agree that God guides us and illuminates us
and brings us
in working intimately with our spiritual growth. The
only difference I would say, and I'm not
offering this as a criticism,
it's just
a reality,
is the Muslim doesn't see that any single
great historical event in history,
makes us better to receive that guidance.
He sees it in a more personal way
that it is his decision to turn towards
that guidance and to surrender to it.
And and that's essentially the what I think
is the essential difference. Okay. I'd like to
add a couple I don't wanna attack your
point of view. Just one moment. No. No.
No. No. No. No. No. No. Just yeah.
Thank you for clarifying.
I want to,
address in detail what,
my very different Harold
mentioned about
the
Christian
way of understanding
salvation.
The Muslim will go hand in hand with
you 100%,
that it is not our own
and it is not us
that can
gain the salvation or earn the salvation.
All these terminology are the wrong terminology.
A Muslim goes hand in hand with you
that it is a gift from God. It
is the grace of God. We do not
use the term grace of God but we
use the term mercy
of God.
However, you seem to indicate
that the only way
for that grace or for that mercy
is through the blood of Jesus,
peace be upon him.
This approach
is even completely foreign to the person of
Jesus.
This is the salvation
that was invented by Paul.
Paul is the one that said, without the
shedding of blood,
there is no remission of sin.
Jesus did not say that.
Moses did not say that.
Abraham
did not say that.
Noah did not say that.
Adam did not say that.
Isaac did not say that.
Joseph did not say that. I can go
through the list of the prophets recognized by
Muslims and Christians throughout history.
Not one
single prophet
have ever said it is through the shedding
of blood
that you gain your salvation.
Only
Paul is the one that invented this brand
new salvation.
Now what did Jesus himself say
according to the narrative of the New Testament?
In Matthew chapter 19, a young man comes
to him,
asks him a very clear point
to the point, which he good master. What
good thing shall I do to gain salvation?
What good thing shall I do to enter
into the kingdom of heaven?
What good thing shall I do
to save my life? All of them mean
the same.
So Jesus first pricks the man. Why do
you call me good?
There is only one that is good, and
that is God.
If you wish to gain salvation for your
soul,
follow God's commandments, which translates to faith
and doing good work. Thou shall not kill,
thou shall not commit adultery. He starts counting
him for the man.
The man interrupts
and he says, but I've been doing that
all my life.
So Jesus carried it one step further.
He said, then you want to be perfect.
If you are there
willing to be perfect,
go out, sell everything you own,
and come and follow me. The man the
Bible states the man was so rich, he
does not want to give up. He was
greedy, just like all of us, I guess.
So he said, that I cannot do. Jesus
looked at his disciples and said, that's why
it is easier for a camel to go
through the eye of the needle than for
a rich man to enter into the kingdom
of God. This is salvation on the lips
of Jesus, not on the lips of Paul
here, and this is not the salvation
that we are hearing.
In the book of Ecclesiastes, in the Old
Testament,
you read in the book that David, advising
his son Solomon,
and after he advises him, he tells him,
now let us hear the conclusion of the
whole matter.
Have faith in God and follow God's commandments.
Again, the Islamic salvation,
the Jesus' salvation, the Abraham's salvation,
the Noah's salvation.
So all of a sudden now, we are
being told by Paul
that without the shedding of blood, there is
no remission of sin.
However,
this dogma of atonement
is defective
for the following reasons.
1st, man is not born in sin.
2nd, God does not require a prior to
forgive sinners.
3rd, the idea of vicarious
sacrifice
is unjust and cruel.
The stain of sin on our soul can
be removed,
not by the suffering and the death of
another person,
willing or unwilling,
divine or human,
because this is not the way the prophets
described it. Now, I I I got more
material here, but I will save it to
another point, so I will not be taking
most of the time and give a chance
to the Christian panel to respond to that.
Okay. Much is attributed to Paul, and this
doctrine I would assert is not at all.
And to begin with this, probably good to
go back to the very beginning
and as we see the first sin of
man
and in as you read the story in
Genesis,
it tells how
God comes down and and sees them and
man
and,
Adam and Eve, they hide from God because
they're conscious of their nakedness and their sin
and it is and because of this, what
they do,
they make for themselves garments. They're concerned
their nakedness before God whereas before their sin,
they were living purely and
with no consciousness
of
of sin and did not need to worry
about clothing.
So they make their own,
clothing
out of leaves and that sort of thing.
But then we see when God comes to
meet them,
and to Adam, he says because you have
listened to the voice of your wife and
have eaten from the tree which I commanded
you.
And then it goes into the curse upon,
everything.
Then he says and it says, and the
Lord God made garments of skin for Adam
and his wife and clothe them.
Now they were already closed.
They had made their own
clothing
from leaves.
Now why didn't God just permit them
to continue in that?
God is using this incident to teach a
lesson,
to to in a parable type form. He's
showing them what is necessary. The one thing
God does after saying there's a curse, He
he provides something which is a cure for
that curse.
He provides for them a covering
of their nakedness,
an evidence of their sin before God.
And that covering
is made from an innocent victim.
These were skins of animals that had done
no sin, that had done no evil.
And so at the very beginning,
it's not something that Paul concocts.
It's something built in to the revelation
from the very first,
of the prophetic stream. And then you go
on the story of Cain and Abel in
the next chapter.
And it talks about here the sons of
Adam and Eve.
And it talks about Abel was a keeper
of flocks, but came was a tiller of
the ground. So it came about in the
course of time that Cain brought an offering
to the Lord of the fruit of the
ground.
And Abel on his part also brought up
his firstlings of his flock
and their fat portions
and the Lord had regard for Abel and
his offering.
Now notice here,
God is being choosy.
Apparently for some reason he rejects the offering
of Cain. It's not specifically stated here,
but one thing is clear,
the offering of Abel
which is
an offering of an animal,
an innocent victim
is accepted by God
and then you go through you see where
Noah offers up sacrifices,
to God
And,
Noah built an off an altar to the
Lord in in Genesis 8 verse 20 and
took of every clean animal and every clean
bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
And the Lord smelled the soothing aroma and
the Lord said to himself, I will never
again curse the ground.
Again, linking
sacrifice
with
the curse in man's sin.
And then it is undeniable
as you read through the Old Testament,
Moses
and all of the prophets.
The sacrificial
system is the basis of Old Testament revelation.
And Jesus comes along and John says to
him, behold the Lamb of God
which taketh away the sin of the world.
Now obviously, he didn't think Jesus was an
animal,
but he's teaching something here
that is in accord with all the teachings
of the prophets in the past.
And so Paul is not creating something new,
he's reflecting,
an issue.
Man is not permitted to come to God
just any old way he wants.
You cannot throw something at God or even
offer something to God very politely,
any old thing. It has to be in
accord with the will of God and the
will of God has been revealed through the
centuries
to require
an offering of blood sacrifice
from the very beginning of God's revelation.
Thank you.
Why don't we allow 2 and then we'll
take 2 here.
Alright.
Let me just make a,
comment,
on this one, but there are quite a
number there's quite a build buildup of other
things that we have not responded to.
But, the statement was made that no
the statement was made that,
nobody, including Moses, had,
said without the shedding of blood, there is
no forgiveness of sin.
If you look back in the Torah, which
is recognized,
by the,
certainly, by the Quran. And, as for Moses,
Leviticus
1711
would be one of a number of verses
that just say this, without the shedding of
blood, there is no forgiveness of sins. So
that,
the prophets
said it,
and,
it is reflected
in throughout the New Testament. I might give
an example from Hebrews 922,
not by Paul, probably not by Paul. It
is recognized in Islam too, but have a
different understanding.
Okay.
But, but nevertheless,
you said no prophet had said it. It
is not Moses didn't, and Moses
did so. The sin of Adam and not
to purify people. But you said without the
shedding of blood. These are your words. There's
no no forgiveness of sins. This is what
you do find in the Torah. Then I
stand to be corrected. Alright.
And,
Jesus
said things like,
for this purpose
came I into the world.
He said of him self, the son of
man came not to be ministered
unto, but but to minister and to give
his life a ransom for many. These are
Jesus' words. So,
the sacrificial
system,
is not an invention
of Paul. It was Christ's self understanding
of himself.
And, there a backlog of other issues which
I'm happy to defer to later or would
I do better referring to those now?
Well, I could do it quickly but there
are
a number of things. Okay.
We still have time so I'd like you
to come back and read things so that
you don't see it. Alright. Let me just
say a number of things that, have built
up here.
One is the defining of new birth.
You said lifted from above or generated from
above. It is the idea of generated or
regenerated, which is the giving of new life.
And it is this new life
and, this new power.
And, I wish,
doctor Badawi were were still here. Although, I
did say the thing when he was here,
but I don't like talking about somebody one
once they've left. But I'm still not convinced
by
the, this the examples given that Hidayah,
means more than guidance. He kept using the
word power, but I don't see that in
any of the illustrations there. And I don't
think I'd find it in the,
in the dictionaries that I have consulted
on the,
word. As for,
the examples of Jesus
condemning can't be his loving,
I think we need to look at the
spirit in which Jesus condemned.
He talked about the Jews as whitewashed sepulchers.
Well, it's pretty hard to get more condemning
than called people whitewashed tombstones.
And yet he then breaks down and cries
and says, oh, Jerusalem, Jerusalem, how oft would
I have gathered you under my wings as
a hen doth or chick. So even in
the condemnation,
there was,
anguish.
And,
again, I'm hesitant
on on giving a comparison here,
but,
and I do know that, Mohammed,
when he went into Mecca forgave
the mass of people and this side
hardly commended for.
Yet he did kill a poet for writing
sarcastic poems about him so that it wasn't
a blanket,
forgiveness,
there.
But,
those are some of the main points that
had been brought up that I didn't think
we had responded to.
Now, Shaka,
please.
Well, there are many points really that have
been raised but not yet answered.
Doctor Woodbury raised the point about the Sabbath,
that the Muslims changes the Sabbath.
Actually, there is no
any conception
or concept or faith,
in the concept of Sabbath in Islam. But
that that I I agree with that. I
just meant that that's the one of the
10 commandments that is not there is what
I meant by that. Okay. I'm not saying
that it was supposed to be a day.
You said they changed the 7th. No. Well,
they changed
they changed the day. That's the one that
they did not carry on, but we find
parallels for all the other 9,
commandments. The the statement is about salvation anyhow.
Yeah.
I'm I'm not, I don't think you'll find
a difference between this.
Skip this one. Okay.
See,
the emphasis
has been very heavy
on the bloodshed
as a means, the sacrifice, as a means
of salvation for man.
And many quotes
have been quoted from the Old Testament.
To my knowledge,
none of these quotes
require
require
that God
sacrifices
for man.
Or what you call it is a man
is sacrificing, man is sacrificing, man is sacrificing.
It never called for God to sacrifice.
This is one point.
The other point is
sacrifice in Islam is a concept. Actually, the
biggest of feasts in Islam is what we
call, the feast of sacrifice.
It is in commemoration
of the lamb given in, replacement of prophet
Ishmael
and in commemoration of the obedience and commitment
and submission that he and his father Ibrahim,
have given to Allah.
Also,
not only a commemoration,
but also,
in reflection
of the willingness
and the willingness of Muslims
to submit and give up everything they have
for the will of Allah. It is the
same time where Muslims go to the pilgrimage.
It is the same time they take off
everything they have in in life, leave it
in the towns, leave their money, their family
and go to the pilgrimage
with little money,
enough for them only to go back and
forth,
ready to die, dressing in a white cloth
like coffin.
So the the concept of sacrifice is there.
But now the issue is
relating this
to
Salvation, which means,
this will take you to Salvation.
It is one way to worship Allah
to sacrifice
a land, to sacrifice your money, to sacrifice
from your time and your efforts. So the
point about sacrifice
is in essence there,
but with a different relation.
And the one who does the sacrifice
is not God. It was never mentioned to
my humble knowledge in the Bible that God
is required
to sacrifice his son or himself or something
for man. The sacrifice in the bible has
always been required from man to God. When
Jesus himself spoke, and I read here from,
Matthew 9,
I'm sorry. Matthew 9 13.
It goes on like this.
Matthew 9 9 says, and Jesus passed on
from there. He saw a man called Matthew
sitting at the tax office. And he said
to him, follow me. And he rose and
followed him. And as he sat at the
table in the house, behold,
many tax collectors and sinners came and sat
down with Jesus and his disciples. And when
the Pharisees saw his, saw that, they said
to his disciples,
why does your teacher sit with tax collectors
and sinners?
But when he heard
it, he said,
those who are well,
those who are well have no need of
a physician, but those who are sick. And
then he went on to say go and
learn what this means.
I desire
mercy and not sacrifice.
For I cannot to call the righteous but
the sinner
so
speaking about the will of God the will
of his father
what he desired
for them is mercy. What he came with
is mercy.
The same the prophet Muhammad came with. Also,
the concept of,
man dying for the sins of,
of others
is is really a Jewish concept in birth.
And I'm quoting the Bible here. Here is
the book of John,
chapter 11,
verse 50 and on.
He said, Jesus here talking.
You do not understand that it is expedient
for you that one man
should die for the people and that the
whole nation should not perish. He did not
say this, that's 51. He did not say
this of his own accord,
but being a high priest, that year he
prophesied that Jesus
should die for the nation. That prophecy was
made by the high priest, and he did
not make it because it he was inspired.
The bible says because he was the high
priest. And and I see nothing in the
bible that says appointing someone as a high
priest qualifies him for inspiration or prophethood. So
that is not a prophethood. That is not
an inspiration from God. It is his own
self made prophecy. Then it goes on, and
not for the nation,
only, but together into 1, the children of
God who are scattered abroad. Also referring to
the children of Israel, the Jewish at that
time.
Not only that the bible is stopped at
this idea being Jewish in in birth,
Christian in doctrine, but it goes on to
clarify this in the old testament as well.
The book of Jeremiah chapter 31 verse 29
and 1, it goes to say, in those
days, they shall say no longer.
The fathers have eaten sour grapes and the
children's teeth are set on edge. For the
sake of the audience, there was a football
used in the land of Israel at that
time that
it was a concept, a faith, a belief
that if the fathers have done something wrong,
the children will inherit the same sin. Even
if the eternal grace, the peace of the
children will be affected.
The Bible says, do not say this, but
everyone shall die for his own sin.
Each man
What do we mean by repeating
this proverb concerning the land of Israel? And
then quote, the fathers have eaten sour grapes
and the children's state are settled age. As
I live, says the Lord God, this proverb
shall no more be used by you in
Israel.
Behold, all souls are mine. The soul of
the father as well as the soul of
the son is mine. The soul that sinneth,
the same shall die.
Thank you. Okay. Alright. Follow-up on that, since
we have 2 speakers?
Let me explain something. Doctor. Jeffrey Lang, we
passed now 1 and a half hours.
He has not
yet
said any word. He gave up his right
to speak today.
And, Shakir
took longer than I expected. So what I'm
gonna do You have to go there. What
I'm gonna do, I'm gonna take a comment
from you and then we'll go back to,
Doctor. Lang, if you don't mind.
Please go ahead.
Alright. On,
on 3 of the points there,
you're quite right when you say that,
it does not require god to make the
sacrifice.
But this is our understanding of god.
A parent doesn't have to make a sacrifice
for children,
except the necessity of love itself,
which, you know as a father and I
know as a father.
So, that that is part of the wonder
of the gospel that gospel that god
did
it out of merely the necessity
of love,
providing the way for us.
Now,
as for,
the quotation,
I desire mercy and not sacrifice,
this is actually a quotation from the Old
Testament
prophets,
which is,
repeated. And so we need to look at
it in its context.
The context in which it was given, is
people whose
were making the sacrifices and hence feeling they
were fine.
And then they could be unjust to the
poor and, unjust to the foreigner in their
midst and all of this. And so God
is saying,
I desire mercy. Don't don't do your sacrifices
and think that you're alright and then you
can be unjust. This is the context both
in the old testament
and, in the new testament.
As for the idea of
sacrifice
being a Jewish idea and not
Christ himself
idea, which was certainly the implication
of, what you said.
I've already,
quoted Mark 145
where Jesus said,
the son of man came not to be
ministered unto but to minister and to give
his life a ransom for many.
And, then before the cross, he says,
for this purpose
came I into the world. I came for
this very purpose to make
a a sacrifice.
So that,
we can't say, oh, this is a Jewish
idea. It may have been a Jewish idea,
but it was also Christ's own idea,
his own understanding
of his own,
calling.
Yes.
I hope one of the other brothers will
take up the issue of the,
prophet Mohammed coming into Mecca.
It's it's easy enough to handle. I'd rather
do something else and and rather than interpret
Christians'
scriptures for them, I I would rather just
present a Muslim perspective on this issue again.
Because I think sometimes we're so absorbed into
criticizing the Christian perspective that nobody gets any
information about how Muslims feel about their life
on earth.
The Quran insisted many places that, this earthly
life
and and this is a difficult question for
all of us, I think. That this earthly
life has a definite purpose.
And,
for the Muslim, he in his almighty tries
to come to grips what possible purpose can
it have. I mean, a world with so
much suffering
and hardship and adversity.
But indeed, hardship and suffering and adversity are
one of the 3 major components. And this
is not I don't pretend that this is
a totalitarian
view on setting, just one aspect I wanted
to,
bring that bring to light.
Hardship and suffering and adversity are a necessary
component of this earthly,
our earthly growth.
In addition to that, our, Legrand stresses the
fact that God has given us intellect,
intelligence
to weigh and to decide and to choose.
And as I just mentioned in my last
breath, he also gave us stability to make
choices.
So in our earthly life, the Muslim perceives
his earthly life that through into his,
through the these gifts
and in the adversity he faces,
he grows
in virtue. He grows in it's an environment
where he can grow in love for his
fellow man, grow in compassion,
grow in justice,
grow in,
forgiveness
of his fellow man. All the various virtues
that emanate from God emanate from God in
perfection, the Muslim in his human
existence tries to grow in these in his
human personality.
And in so, by growing in these things,
he feels that he is growing, not only
feels, but the Quran confirms this. He's growing
in nearness to God
so that in the day of judgment, when
all these earthly distractions are stripped
away, he and even in this life as
well, as he grows in these virtues and
which emanate from God, he's growing not only
in his own personal well-being, and he does
feel a great sense of peace and well-being
from that. And I think, our Christian brothers
will agree with that. Because it is better
to give than to receive,
to forgive than to seek vengeance. All these
things that we do that insist on truth
in times of adversity, these do give us
a great sense of inner well-being and peace.
It's not the material things
that make us happy, the cars, etc.
But the Muslim doesn't just feel that he's
growing in bees only for that purpose.
The real ultimate purpose is as he grows
in bees, so in the next life, when
the earthly distractions are stripped away, he will
have reached, hopefully,
as Mussolini would say, through the will of
God and through God's,
illumination and guidance. He will reach the stage
where he could receive and experience
the infinite love, the infinite compassion, the infinite
warmth and forgiveness and justice
that emanates from
from God. And,
and,
maybe I'll come back to more of this
later, but I think I've more than exhausted
my time. But I just would like us
to,
consider that. I haven't done a full job
on it, but at least get that perspective
going.
Shaka, you want to make a follow-up with
what, Doctor. Woodbury
Yeah. It is just
a simple, comment,
that
all what has been quoted,
even,
the word of Jesus Christ did not say
that the son of God or the son
of man
will give his life for the sins of
mankind. It says for mankind.
And every prophet
John,
John the Baptist, and Zachariah, those who have
been killed
for the sake of the message, they have
given their lives.
Not only that, but when I quoted the
scripture here in John 11 about the, high
priest in Jerusalem who prophesied,
that Jesus be
killed. Jesus said that he will die,
but he didn't say for the 10th. This
man is talking about
one man will be killed for 1 nation
to survive and prevail, and he is referring
to the children of Israel.
Uh-uh I seem to believe that
this
idea in itself and the birth of it
is is just
the the the
the
the
the
the the the the the the the the
the the the the the the the the
the the the the the the the the
the the the the the the the the
the the the the the the the the
the the and all what comes after of
those who believe in the same Judea,
so called Judea Christian,
faith or or or beliefs
to believe that the one that sinned the
same shall die. We're not talking here about
physical death. We're talking about
spiritual death.
So, the punishment
and the verses by the way, it goes
on. I didn't read because let's see. We
we know the verses.
Wickedness of the wicked will be against the
wicked and it goes on. So when you
say and suggest
that because Jesus,
out of the mercy of God,
was put on the cross
and was crucified, even if he was crucified,
how does this relate to the sins on
the lips of Jesus Christ? Okay. Look at
145.
The first I quote, Mark 10, excuse me,
Mark 1045.
For even the son of man did not
come to be served but to serve and
to give his life as a ransom
for many
a ransom for many. Now he is choosing
the very word,
video for Dana. This is where it for
ransom. He has chosen
the very Greek word
that, or the Greek word is used here.
Yes.
For the mini.
No. No. No. No. For the ransom.
Ransom for the word. Yes. Yes. This is
the word that is used for the ransoming
of the children of Israel
for their sins by the See? By the
sacrifice of the lamb. Again, the the word
sin or sins. Again?
But the use of the word
because
he could have been
he could have meant different things.
But he's choosing
understanding to it even though, I I I
may not be coming from your
background.
But the point is he said ransom. But
he did he say
ransom to save them from being killed?
That if if he did not submit to
the Romans, for example Now if he did
not bring the cup Alright.
Who's he talking to now? He is talking
to the Jews. Sir.
The Jews who had the day of atonement
when the sin offering,
sin offering is offered as a ransom
for the sins of the people. So he
is choosing
when you look at his audience here, he
is choosing those words that they have to
understand in this way. Yet I fail to
see the word ransom for their sin. It's
a ransom for them. It may be Well,
let it's like using the word forgive.
I forgive you,
you or you say to me, maybe I've
done something wrong. You would not use the
word forgive
unless it implied forgiveness for some wrongdoing.
You don't use the word ransom unless it
implies
ransom for some sin. It means saving. It
doesn't mean,
sin.
Well, it's cyclicality
here
ransom means
I say a ransom for my my son,
for example,
I save him.
I pay a ransom for something. I save
what I pay the ransom to have. So
wanting to have the children of Israel saved
he accepted the cup
that God will that he drinks
because when he prayed and he said, oh
my lord in heaven,
if you so will take this cup away
from me, But if you so will,
for me to drink it, I will. So,
for him to accept drinking this cup, it
is a ransom that he has given,
but not really for the sins because in
other places, Jesus himself told them the evildoers
will go to the hellfire that has unquench
the evildoers.
All to the evildoers,
he he almost, like,
I am the ransom for your sins, but
if you sin, you will go to hellfire.
No. No. No. But because and that's what
salvation
is all about. It is the offering
of it is the pain of the penalty.
It is the offering of forgiveness which only
is ours if we receive it. And that's
why these common Muslim and Christian concepts
of faith, that doesn't reconcile the concept between
him saying that the evildoers, the sinner, the
whatever whatever. That's right. I can give him
the hellfire. That's right. At the same time,
I am the ransom. I I I need
just reconciliation between those. Alright.
The ransom is made.
These these cups represent
sinners.
The result of their sin and rebellion against
God and pride and selfless,
all of these concepts that are common to
Christianity
and Islam.
That rebellion and there,
they are condemned
to,
hellfire.
But God in his love provides
a means
while they are still sinners,
and this is the unique element of Christianity
as opposed to the Quran at least. Okay.
While they're still sinners,
Christ dies for them.
He loves them and provides for them a
means of forgiveness,
new life,
reconciliation,
saving from the fire. Nevertheless,
it does not,
they don't receive it unless they, by faith,
a Muslim and Christian concept, by faith,
receive
the forgiveness,
receive the ransom that is provided for them.
This one does.
That one does not. And so the continued
condemnation
for sin to hellfire
becomes
his or hers, but not his or hers
because they have been ransomed.
So you suggest they've accepted the ransom? May
I suggest we move to, doctor Moss. I
just wanna finish this brief comment on this
point because this point is very,
really
it is the essence of the issue that
we are addressing here. And maybe the discussion
will clarify more as to how to understand
it from both sides.
Are you suggesting, doctor Woodbury, that
some
of those who are sinners,
will be saved just by accepting the faith?
Is this what you said? I heard you
saying those who accept Correct.
Those who accept, they will be ransomed and
the other will be condemned to hellfire. Right?
Okay
that is not what Jesus said Jesus said
believe
in God
and follow me he did not only stop
there but he said unless you do the
will of your father, you will never enter
the kingdom of of heaven. Not only that,
but he qualifies
their obedience. He said, unless your righteousness exceeds
that of the Pharisees, you will the scars
of the Pharisees, you will never enter the
kingdom of heaven. So he make it pending
on not acceptance of any ransom because if
you if if I owe you money and
you come to tell me I forgive you
can I say no
so acceptance of ransom is no issue? The
issue is what takes a person from his
sinning staff to the status of deserving the
forgiveness.
Anyone will accept forgiveness of it given to
him, but what takes him there, according to
the words of Jesus Christ is 2 things
his faith in God
and his obedience and commitment to the will
of God and execution of his Commandments.
Not only that, but Jesus also said that
it is by the commandment of God that
one is safe.
It is by the commandment of God that
one is safe. It is not by,
Jesus
putting his life,
for for anyone because the concept of one
dying for another one again
is alien
to me, is alien to the destruction
of Jesus Christ. Is not Mark 1045
said by Jesus? That doesn't mention the sin.
It does mention that John died for a
message. Right? And he died for the people.
Zechariah was also killed for the message he
brought and for the prophethood he was about.
Other prophets were also killed. They were killed
for the message. That's all what it is.
Okay. Can, can we continue along? Can, we
listen from mister Nagalapen?
Yeah. Yeah. I I what we seem to
be having here
is,
a willingness to accept
some of what Jesus says and not the
other part.
Jesus certainly
works are important,
but the difference as we look at the
gospel which is,
the teaching of Jesus
and the new testament writers.
Works are important and sometimes god
the scriptures talk about works,
but the difference as I see it between
the message
of the new testament as a whole
and,
the message of Islam is that although faith
and works are both important in salvation,
works are the fruit
of our faith
in,
that is they lead out of our faith.
They are the fruit of our faith,
certainly in
a Protestant understanding
of scripture.
And,
in a Muslim understanding of scripture,
they lead into salvation.
Not so.
And, the prophet said, faith is not a
matter of wish or desire. Faith is what
dwells deep in the heart and your good
deeds are a witness to that faith. Yes.
So actually, faith leads to
the good conduct. It is not a byproduct
of it. So this again, that is our
authority, the Quran and the Hadith, and we
are quoting due from the Hadith. Okay. But
from the Quran,
it almost always you say,
have faith and do good works. So
Amen is spirit and
the second
Ayn al Risari had to Ayn al Risari
had to Ayn al Risari, never reversed. Okay.
So, number 1, faith. Number 2, if you
truly have faith in God, then you do
good works, so your good works are a
byproduct of your faith. Okay. Let So what's
the objection, doctor Woodburn? Okay. Let me,
there there's a nuance in here that I
think is a, is a significant,
one
because you see, if our salvation is dependent
upon our works,
then we're not sure
if we can. Nobody ever predicted that.
But to say
believe and do good works, You see the
2
always linked, almost always linked in the,
in the Quran at over and over and
over again. Are you trying to tell me
that a man says I have faith in
God, but he goes out and mismurder, *,
atrocity, and his faith has saved him. Please
let me please let me finish Sure. What
I'm I'm saying, and then you won't have
to ask the question. Okay.
Sorry. It wasn't.
Ephesians 28,
9, and 10.
For by grace,
God's grace, you're saved by faith,
not of works,
blessed
any man should boast. You see this was
why,
the righteousness had to,
suit, go beyond that of the scribes and
Pharisees because they did the right things, but
then they were proud
and were out of fellowship. But then verse
10 goes on.
We are created
in Christ Jesus
for good works,
which God hath before ordained that we should
walk in them. So that,
works are very important to Jesus
and very important
to Paul
and they're very important
to the Christian,
but they are seen as that which is
the, as Luther put it, the fruit.
We might say the tree of salvation or
the tree of faith. Yeah. And, so
here we have a great deal of commonness,
but I think there is a nuance thing.
So it's different. Well, it's a it's a
dialogue. So what I'd like you to elaborate
more, just a little bit more.
So is it a condition now for the
work? Or
suppose somebody does not do any work, just
have the faith only.
Well, see enough Okay. What what we have
in scripture,
what we Is it 90%? Is it 80%?
Is it 50? I mean, you know,
how how much does it weigh? And how
much does it work to what's the relation
between both? For acceptance
by God,
faith
is
what is required.
But this is a faith that,
if it is true faith,
will bear the fruits of
good works, you see. So that it is
faith which is essential, but it's a faith
that will involve,
good works. Okay. I think
Okay. I,
have a comment about what doctor Woodbury said,
if you will allow I didn't answer all
the rest of the question. I I'm it
just occurred to me. I I I knew
I'd missed something. The other part was then
can one of you said, can you just,
do what are you saved if you just
do whatever you
you want to.
You have a,
attention here.
Maybe attention isn't that, let's say, a balance,
I think is a nicer way to put
it, here.
Between
a chapter like John
10 where we are
in Christ's hands. We're in God's hands.
And nobody can take us out
when we are his children.
So this means that,
the Christian,
who has received
Christ as Lord and savior
doesn't have to worry,
all the
time. Oh, did I do something wrong? You
know? Was I unkind to my spouse or,
you know, was I angry and so forth
and said something wrong.
Wherein we we have a we can relax.
We're not always worried that, oh, if I
die hit a car today, will I will
I die? On the other hand,
the epistle to the Hebrews
has
a couple of brief passages
of warning
to people,
who just sort of
take the attitude that, you know,
you know, I can sort of do what
I want to because after all, I'm saved.
And so there's enough warning there so we
don't get,
lackadaisical.
So we don't just sort of say, it
doesn't matter what I do.
But the great stress is there on the
confidence,
the assurance that we can have because we
are in God's hand. Thank you. This that
was
very clear, I guess. You cleared it out.
Thank you.
Doctor Dante.
Oh, yeah.
Once again, I don't wanna challenge the Christian
perspective. That's their perspective. So I take this
moment to present the Muslim
point of view as well.
I think doctor Woodbury has a point when
he says that,
faith together with good works is given heavy
emphasis in the Quran.
I would also include in that the idea
of the peace and the well-being that comes
from it. The Muslim
sees those three ingredients,
faith and,
good works and the well-being.
I guess if I was gonna write write
it diagram diagrammatically on the board, it's sort
of like a circle.
Faith should produce
good You're not going to go. No. No.
It's alright. I know you. This is my
pretend blackboard up here. Faith should produce, no.
No. Faith should produce
good works.
Faith and good works should lead to a
greater sense of well-being.
That well-being
should and, of course, through God's mercy and
illumination,
produce in us leads to greater faith, should
produce greater works. You know, that we see
our life as
these three things contributing towards our spiritual growth.
And our spiritual
ungrowth is sort of the opposite. The bad
deeds
work in the opposite direction, and they make
us more miserable people inside.
And they perhaps more greedy or more materialistic,
and that works in the opposite direction. So
yes, we do see it. I think we
do have a heavy emphasis on that. We
see our relationship,
as much more not much more.
I think this is not a comparison. We
see our relationship with God as
intimately
personal, very direct,
and that we see our lives constantly relying
on this interaction between
God and ourselves
and, our responses to him and his responses
to us.
The last point I wanted to make is
we do have Before you move to this
last point, I still don't see the triangle
fitting in what you said, sir. Oh, I
just wanted to say the relationship between faith
and good works and etcetera.
The the,
I just wanted to make,
well, I still didn't understand your question, but
I don't wanna absorb all their time as
well. It's okay. You see, we are in
a dialogue. We're trying to to understand each
part. I think, doctor
explained it nicely, and Yes. It's very clear
to me at least. That's why I'm sitting
here not with you, but Oh, you mean
you want to you want to tell a
point of contrast? At least I see what
you're saying, sir. Yes. So the point of
contrast, I guess, would have to be that
the Muslim does not recognize,
an acceptance of any other,
great,
event in history or,
God's working through another individual
as
contingent
upon his spiritual growth. He he
I mean, not that that doesn't have a
point. I mean, the point is, God's
revelation
to prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, in
history and his
surrender to that message is all entailed in
there. But I mean, no particular
there's no emphasis on a personality
or or a or a sacrifice. Just
it's just clear cut. I don't think the
Muslim has the same emphasis on a human
sacrifice.
As a matter of fact, just let me
just for the sake of the audience,
just let me clarify how Muslims might think
of sacrifice. And I'll just only refer to
the Quran and then I'll pass it to
the other panel.
The Muslim concept is more or less like
this, and it says in the Quran,
the sacrificial camels
we have made for you. So we have
made the sacrificial camels for you. This is
at the end of,
the pilgrimage, the Muslims
sacrifice animals,
in particular camels.
The sacrificial camels we have made for you
as among the signs of God.
In them is much good for It doesn't
say exactly how. So then pronounce the name
of God over them as they line up.
When they are down on their side, eat
thereof,
and feed such as those who live in
contentment and such as bake in humility. So
when we commit these sacrifices at the end
of, the
pilgrimage, we distribute the the food among the
poor and the needy and among our families
as well. And then it says, thus we
have made
animals subject to you, that you may be
grateful or show gratitude to you. It is
not their meat nor their blood that reaches
God.
It's not their meat or their blood that
reaches God. It is your piety that reaches
Him. So the Muslim perspective is that through
this sacrifice,
a number of things are accomplished, and not
these exclusively.
We take care of the feeding of the
poor. We take our own physical needs so
that we'll after a long, hard pilgrimage, we
feel a great sense of gratitude,
and for the gifts that God has bestowed
on us. And in addition to that, hopefully,
through that those that feeling and that sharing,
we grow in piety. And it's the and
that and the Quran underlines that that growth
in piety is the, essential,
purpose behind that particular
sacrifice. Thank you. So it is different than
Christians. Doctor. Vavilov, you have something to say,
Diva?
Yeah. As I've been listening, it seems to
me that, I begin to hear that
we both share faith in God,
but I would say that,
perhaps one of the differences is is that
for the Christians anyway, it's not so much
a faith in who God is,
but in what God does
for us. Okay?
And that the Christian would say God
is 1, yes, God is great, and all
the attributes.
God provides
for us, a law, guidance,
etc.
But that Christians believe that God went even
further than that.
He actually provided
a way for us
in Christ through the cross,
a way of
providing for us
what we,
by our own efforts, could not do.
So yes, we have faith,
yes,
in who God is, but more, I think,
in what God does. Did God do this?
Did God provide for us in this way?
Muslims would say, I think no, He did
not. Did God enter history? No, He did
not. Did God, was God in Christ? No,
He was not.
Christians would say,
Yes, He was.
God was in Christ reconciling
the world unto Himself.
So it's both faith in God but I
think it's not so much knowing who God
is,
thinking about it, but what God has done.
Thank you.
Could I just add one more comment to
this?
Paul,
before he met Jesus on the road to
Damascus,
certainly believed
in God.
He was a Jew of Jews, Hebrews,
Pharisee of Pharisees. He had all the law
and everything.
But that after that encounter,
and let's say before the Law, before that
encounter, he
was willing to use, he was going out
to Damascus to arrest Christians. He was going
to use force,
you know, to
protect the faith, to keep the faith,
to do in these Christians who he thought
were
somehow violating it. He was willing to use
to use force
and felt very comfortable doing it.
After that experience,
when he
recognized that God was in Christ, in Jesus
of Nazareth, that Jesus was the Christ,
after that he never again
used or felt comfortable using force.
He then, instead of imprisoning others,
he became imprisoned.
He was the one who was beaten. He
was the one who suffered.
A very different way, he worshiped the same
God, I'm sure,
but after he discovered what God had done
in Christ,
it just changed his whole
lifestyle,
his whole attitude.
Doctor. Woodbury was saying
that these works flow out of our salvation.
I think we see this very clearly in
St. Paul
that having encountered
God in Christ,
it did change his whole lifestyle.
The things he felt comfortable doing before,
afterward
he did not feel comfortable doing. It really
changed him but it flowed out of that
event, out of that experience.
Thank you.
Doctor Mosse, please. Thank you. I I think
my,
points here will adequately, hopefully, address,
Doctor. Gogler's
concern
about why Muslims,
do not believe that the blood of Jesus
is the way to salvation.
He is 100%
correct in saying that both Muslims and Christians
speak of faith,
yet they have different definitions
for what faith is
and what it means.
See, the Muslims' authority
for defining what faith is
are the prophets that came from God. It
is not you, I, him,
Paul,
the disciples of Mohammed or the disciples of
Jesus
but the source have to be the great
prophets that came from God, the great people
who are authorized by God, the people that
you and I who recognize
them, except for the Muslims, they will add
Muhammad to the list.
Those are the people that can only speak
on behalf of God.
Not theologians,
not counselors,
not clergymen,
not the average individual on the street.
Let me tell you first why Muslims
do not go along with the Christian way
of salvation.
First of all, in Islam, there is no
doctrine of original
sin. Therefore, there is no need for God
Almighty
to send His Son
to be tortured, crucified,
to wipe away our sins.
As a matter of fact, the same scriptures
that we heard from the Old Testament in
the book of Isaiah chapter 1 verse 11
through 16, we read,
this is attributed to God Almighty.
What care I for the number of your
sacrifices,
said the Lord.
I have enough of your burned rams, and
the blood of calves and lambs and goats
I find no pleasure.
Will you come to me to visit me
who asked these tidings of you,
trample my courts no more. Your hands are
full of blood.
Wash yourselves clean, put away your misdeeds,
cease doing evil, learn to do good.
Make justice you aim, redress the wrong, hear
the orphans,
flee and defend the widow.
So even in that we find the message
of the Quran loud and clear.
The doctrine of original sin and blood sacrifice
is not only a denial of the mercy
of the 1 and only God and his
grace,
but also of his justice.
To demand a price of blood in order
to forgive sins is to show complete lack
of mercy.
Now, the Message in the Quran is Mercy.
To punish a man who is not guilty
for the sins of others is the highest
of injustice.
How can the suffering, torturing and death of
an innocent man
wipe away the guilt and the sins of
others?
I would say the Muslims find that this
scheme of salvation
is very unreal and very illogical.
Have you heard of a judge
that killed his own son
to forgive a * or a killer?
Have you ever heard of a doctor
who breaks his own head
to cure the headache of his patient.
This idea of the shedding of the blood,
that it is necessary to appease the wrath
of God, does not come from the teachings
of any prophet.
And these are my what I just showed
to you is this. Let me finish. You
interrupted me and you told me let me
finish. So I have to interrupt you and
say let me finish too.
And so this idea
And you have to remember that I'm here
to do what you do. Right.
Of the shedding of the blood
to appease the wrath of God
did not come from the teachings of Jesus,
did not come from the teachings of Moses,
did not come from the teaching of Abraham,
did not come from the teaching of Noah.
I can go down the list and I
will dare anyone to produce for me on
the lips of 1 of the prophets that
you must shed blood or God demand the
shedding of blood in order to forgive sins
or forgive original sins.
Actually, it came from paganism.
It came from the primitive man's image
of a powerful
demon, which they thought he is to be
God, that demands
vengeance
and demands
revenge?
What is the connection between the shedding of
blood
and the forgiving
of sin?
Now, look at what the Quran let me
read this
beautiful revelation
that came to Prophet Muhammad outside the Quran
and see the mercy of God in it,
and look the wrath of God and the
shedding of blood.
Oh, son of Adam,
meaning mankind,
every human being, it didn't say all Muslims.
It addresses
all mankind,
Muslims, Christians,
Jews,
even pagan, anyone.
Oh, son of Adam, so long you call
upon me and ask of me, I shall
forgive you for what you have done, and
I shall not mine.
O son of Adam, were your sins to
reach the clouds of the sky, and
you were then to ask forgiveness of Me,
I would forgive you.
O son of Adam, were you to come
to Me with sins nearly as great as
the air,
and were you then to face me,
ascribing
no personage to me, I would bring you
forgiveness
nearly as great as it.
This
is our concept of the mercy and the
grace of God,
not the shedding of blood, not the torturing
of Jesus, peace be upon him, not the
whipping of Jesus, peace be upon him, not
the crucifixion of Jesus, peace be upon him,
the great prophet that came from God to
guide mankind.
This is the God of mercy. This is
the God of grace. This is our understanding
of God. So it has something to do
with our different
understanding
of the mercy of the grace of God
on human. And that is where, really, the
real issue is. Thank you. What I'd like
you to help me do now, see, is,
you make a comment on what he said
first. Well, I'm just wondering,
I I answered that. Okay. Then, I already
answered to show that Moses in the Torah,
did say without the shedding of blood, there's
no forgiveness of sins and I did answer
that Christ is Give give me a reference
of Moses saying that. Leviticus
Okay. I gave you that. Leviticus
2211,
was it? Or 1122,
I think of it. Whether the human or
animal?
Blood. Okay. I think it was made more
than one time, so you forgive me. But
we wanted to clarify that the sharing is
speaking here about sacrifices of animals,
not
for the, saving of original sin or payment
of original sin. This has nothing to do
with original sin. Now the blood sacrifice in
me let me then if if you want
to raise the matter of original sin, let
me deal with that. The other ones, I
read the scriptures before
and showed the references, so it will just
be doing the same thing again.
But as far as
let's look at the the concept here. Romans
5 12, as sin came into the world
through 1 man and death through sin,
so death spread to all men. Why?
Because all men have sinned.
So that what we have here
is the experience,
we have the story of Adam and Eve.
We know that Adam and Eve, when they
were given freedom,
made the wrong choice, a story recorded in
the Quran
and in the bible. They did in fact
turn to,
sin.
But then
and then we the experience of humankind
since
then, both as described in the Bible and
as described in the Quran
and in our own human experience
shows that, yes,
death spread to all men or at least
because all have sinned. You see death, we
would see,
the the
understanding of death in the bible
is separation
from God.
The end of the story of the prodigal
son,
you have the father saying to the older
brother, this,
your brother
was dead and is alive
again, you see. In that, he was separated
from the fellowship of the father.
Hence, death is seen primarily in scripture as
I understand it as the separation from God.
So that
this separation
from God spread to all men,
this lack of fellowship with God spread to
all men because all have sinned and this
is true. We have shown that
all have sinned.
And,
so here's where we have some difficulty
with
the quranic view,
in surah 30
verse 30 in the Egyptian edition, verse 29
in the pugilization. This issue first before we
go to the second issue? No. It's not.
I'm dealing with the same issue. Okay. I'm
dealing with the question, do people have a
bias to sin or not? This is how
I understand.
Uh-uh, original sin is not biased to sin.
This is sin means inheritance of sin from
Adam, Paul. Biased to sin or the human
tendency he had to do. What is wrong
is a different board game. No. Just a
minute. Just a minute. It isn't in my
understanding
and the understanding of much of the church.
Then why do you baptize the children?
Just let me finish and then I will
I think you will under you won't need
to ask so many questions if you will
let me,
explain here.
Romans 5 12
12, would you like to the verse in
the ground? What what was the verse Well,
I'm going to go go to that, but,
apparently, he didn't hear what I was explaining
before. So or didn't comprehend it. My mistake
again.
So the separation
from God
described as death spread to all people because
all have sinned.
This is an understanding
that,
Adam was the first one but this is
spread to all. We have all
pointed for death spread to us
because
all have sinned. And so the concept of
original
sin as I understand it,
Adam started out
the sinning process and the rest of us
have followed in his footsteps. Okay. This is
what,
certainly my experience as a father is and
I assume your experience as a father is
we don't have to teach our children
to be,
to be selfish.
Counterpart
to this,
this concept of of a bias,
to wrong.
Surah 30 verse 30 in the Egyptian edition
verse 29 in the flugel edition.
So set your face to the religion
as one of
the pristine faith, Hanif,
the state of natural purity,
fitra,
in which
he, god, created people.
So that
there seems to that there is the presentation,
and I believe I'm presenting it fairly, that,
we are born in a state of natural
purity,
Fitra.
There
now here's where I have certain problems even
in the Quran. I'm sorry. Can you repeat
the first number? Just the first number.
Surah 30 verse 30 in the Egyptian edition,
29 in
I presume you have the Egyptian
edition
there.
But the Quran
seems to indicate that the problem
it indicates a number of things that are
a little bit hard to reconcile
this.
First of all, there is an awareness that
if humans are created,
they will be corrupt.
And, I refer to Surah 2 verse
30 in the Egyptian edition 28 in.
And when the Lord said to the angels,
I am setting in earth a viceroy
humans,
They said, what will you set there and
then who will do corruption,
what will you set there and one who
will do corruption
there and shed blood while we we proclaim
your praises and call you holy? He said,
assuredly, I know what you do not know.
So first of all, there seems to to
be the awareness that if humans are created,
they're going to work corruption, shed blood.
Secondly,
the devil
foretells that he will master and pervert people
and I'll just choose,
one reference here.
Surah 15,
39
through 40.
As you have perverted me, I shall pervert
them
altogether,
except those of your servants among them that
are devoted.
Thirdly,
some verses reflect the biblical
perspective that Adam knowingly
disobeyed and rebelled against the will of God,
which is hard to,
correlate with his just forgetting,
when you see that Satan reminded
Adam and Eve of God's prohibition
in Sura 7 verse verse 20 and Egyptian
19
and,
Flugel.
But let me, just
skip on Could you please make it Oh,
okay. Let me just skip on,
to the to the ending here.
And,
I quoted earlier,
the numbers of times it says in the
Quran that most people
go astray. This is very hard to correlate
with the fact that we are all born
in a state of natural purity.
If most people are going to go astray,
if the, as the Quran says, the prophets
came and they were all,
reviled.
It shows
it seems to me a bias towards evil.
And if there is this bias
towards evil,
it suggests that something rather drastic,
has to be done. It also
raises in question that we are all born
in natural purity if most of us go
astray according to the Quran.
Please. Go
ahead.
I have an answer to it with me.
You should be a log. Okay. Please. Let
me let me do the management. Okay? Management
I'm supposed to do.
You help me do it, okay? You raise
points related to my points, so I want
to answer it and then give it to
Shavrin. You listen to me first, please.
What I'm saying is we want to start
with the people who are waiting here. See,
everybody will ask questions.
And,
what I would like you to do Okay.
Just let me finish.
What I'd like you to do make your
comment quick. And then you're going to make
I know you have many points to reply
to. So what I would like to end
this part with is to ask you a
question simply.
If somebody is Keep it up until the
finish. I'll keep it until the finish. You
have a Yeah. Okay. Go ahead. Fair enough.
Please go. I'll make it shorter. From now
on, no long speeches. Make it
long speeches. Very, very brief. No long speeches.
I heard a brand new definition of original
sin.
The traditional
original sin that has been taught that you
are born with the sin of Adam, and
if you ask any Christian out there, they
will tell you that, and Saint Augustine is
the very first one that even used the
term original sin, have nothing to do with
the person of Jesus.
As a matter of fact, Jesus did suffer
the little children and forbid them not, for
theirs is the children or is the is
the heaven.
If you do not see the kingdom of
God as a little child, you will never
see it. So Jesus was teaching identical teaching
to the Quranic,
teaching.
The reference again about the sacrifice
of people that was given by doctor Woodbury,
he gave us from Romans. Again, it is
our friend Paul. He did not even refer
on the lips of Jesus, Moses,
or anyone else about God has to kill
his son in order to save people. This
is what our friend, again,
Paul, had,
said.
So that confirms again my point of view
that the salvation changes from the salvation that
was taught by Jesus to the new concept
of salvation that was propagated by Paul, and
both of them are contradictory, have nothing to
do with each other.
Doctor Woodbury
brought some interesting points.
In on one hand, he said
that
we sinned
because
we have biases towards sin.
On the other hand not because. The the
bias towards
okay. I'll I'll live with that. Go ahead.
I'm sorry.
On the other hand, he said that we
sinned because Adam, our father, sinned.
And I I I I just have
to recall the Bible
that the fathers,
those who eat sour grapes, their own teeth
will be set on edge.
To us Muslims, Adam and Eve, both not
one of them were tempted. To us Muslims
according to the authority of the Quran,
both of them were forgiven
before they were descended to earth. They were
not cursed
for the sin they did. They were taught
some words to seek repentance.
They saw the repentance. They were repented.
When they were descended to earth, guidance was
given to man.
And, the case of,
their 2 sons is a case of an
example, another example.
The first example was man forgetting the order
of God, then God gave him forgiveness.
The second case was a case of a
man transgressing another another man, one killing his
own brother, the 2 sons of Adam.
So,
the Bible
contradicts
the fact
that
the original sin concept that you're promoting,
says that, we,
sort of inherited the same
thing.
And
so,
I think, I think, I think, I think,
I think, I think, I think, I think,
I think, I think, I think, I think,
I think, I think, I think, I think,
I think, I think, I think, sinners, and,
the Quran says the majority of people are
not that pious. The majority of people are,
not God seekers. But on the other hand,
the Quran also says that God seeks people.
He seeks them out of their own sins
and saves them and guides them and gives
them guidance.
So,
by the statistics
of how many are those who do the
crimes in any city. Are they the majority?
Are they the majority? They're not the majority.
But what happens is when the majority are
silent on sins committed in the midst of
them,
then they get hurt by the same sin.
They get killed. They get mad. So the
concept of the original sin that man inherited
the sin of Adam is contrary to what
Jeremiah said, to what Hezekiah said, to what
the Bible thought about sins are for those
who committed them. You brought also the verse,
seemingly you have difficulty,
the the
the
the
the
the
the
the the the the the the the the
the the the has nothing to do with
what you suggested.
The Quran said,
the nature,
of
on which Allah has created man.
So and this nature has been explained somewhere
else. It didn't say that he was created
pure. It said that he was created on
natural state.
Then, he had the inclination
is there for goodness as well as for
evil doing. The inclination,
the readiness
is there. If he listens to God, then
God is his God, he goes to heaven.
If he listens to the devil, then the
devil is his God, then he goes to
* with with the devil. So
claiming that Islam said it is pure, yet
it is reflected in reality that man in
the majority is taught to be a
sinner according to the Quran seems to be
an introduction, a contradiction to your mind, is
is now resolved to to my humble view.
One one thing to add here is that
you seem to portray that it is all
it's only the mercy of God
that saves man. That is non
contradictory to the concept of Islam.
People in paradise are quoted in chapter 7
saying, Alhamdulillah.
Great be to Allah. Great be to Allah.
The one who has guided us to this.
We would have never been guided unto this
without Allah guiding us into it. So the
concept of the mercy of Allah guiding us,
the mercy of Allah forgiving our sins, is
there, it is embodied in the concept of
Islam in Quran. I don't see where did
you miss it. On the other hand,
the Quran also
teaches on the other hand, what I said
in
was Yeah. And innocent.
Yeah. And innocent is not gonna be taken
by the guilt of the guilt.
You know, it it it doesn't make sense.
And Allah also continues to say, and we
would never have torture, we will never torture
or take apply punishment
on those to whom we didn't we never
send a prophet or a messenger. And a
messenger could be anyone who conveys the message
anyway. So the concept of punishing someone for
someone else's sins or deeds is alien to
the Quran. It is alien to the Bible.
The temptation of,
the the bible also goes on to tell
us
that, the, I'm sorry, the Quran goes on
to tell us, even though it is by
the mercy of Allah, and this is a
careful point to to pay attention to. Even
though man
is going to only get to paradise by
the mercy of Allah,
even though he will only be forgiven
and
accepted and saved by the mercy of Allah
depending on his faith and deeds.
Yet the mercy is necessary, the mercy is
the ultimate determinant,
but yet this mercy, the Quran told us,
my mercy encompasses everything.
Yet the Quran goes on to say,
I will write it it for those who
believe,
those who follow the prophet, the illiterate prophet
of Mecca that they find in the midst
of them. The
the the the the the the the the
the the the the the the the the
the the the the the the the the
the the the the the the the the
the the the the the the the final
comment and I'm not going to make it
more than half a minute
is
uh-uh again I assure and repeat what Jesus
said
in Matthew,
1022.
He
who endures
to the end
shall be saved.
The one who sticks to the word of
God, the one who sticks to the commandment
of God, he will be saved. It is
not by wishes.
It's not by our wishes or anybody's wishes.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I'd like if, of course, you you replied
to what you said, but,
after you do that, please,
somebody
is suppose somebody I will I will raise
nothing. I will raise nothing.
You just ask to,
the translation of the word,
pitra.
In my understanding from Muslim theologians,
that is the state in which people are
born.
Fitra is commonly understood
by, Muslim theologians that I've been in contact
with as being a state of natural purity.
That's what I said. Look. You said natural
state. Natural state. Natural state. Natural state. Yeah.
The word of purity is what I really
objected to because okay.
Many many Muslim theologians that I have been
in contact with and have read have understood
it in that way. And I it certainly
fits in with the understanding of Islam that
I feel you have presented and that doctor
Badri presented. So I don't think we need
to argue this point. Please. No no more
points, please.
As to,
one man,
paying 1 person paying for,
another,
You know, when my,
son gets a traffic ticket,
I
have
he got a traffic ticket once, and I,
as the father, paid for him.
If I had been the judge, I would
have given him the ticket, and then I
would have paid it because he didn't have
that much money. So that,
this is an understanding
of,
I couldn't be forced to do it, but
if the payment is made, it was accepted?
Even if he is 40 years of age,
he would pay. Would would would you go
to jail for him if he kills someone?
I would be willing to do that. But
would the law allow you to go to
jail for him if he kills someone or
rapes someone? God forbid. Okay.
Yes or no? There are cases in history
where this has happened.
Okay.
Jesus was not responsible
to
die for us. He offered he
them? Well, just on the future of salvation,
he said, those who endure to the end
will be saved. Saved is a word that
is used
in 3 tenses.
It is used in the past.
I
have been saved.
It is used in this sense of being
justified.
Present.
I am being saved.
In this sense, it gives the concept of
the spirit of God at work
transforming
my life. This is the new power, the
new life we're talking about. And then in
the future,
I shall be saved.
When we remember, we talked of
salvation
as wholeness of life which we start to
experience here but will have its fullness
in the future. And so,
he has picked out a verse that takes
just the future aspect and does not deal
with the past and the present. Present. Thank
you, doctor Woodbury. What I'd like you to
do I know you have a comment. I
know you have a comment. So while making
the comment, you answered the following question,
which makes the conclusion of this part. Somebody
somebody committing sins,
and, he feels he's guilty.
Or, you know,
he he wants to find a way out
of of the sins. But still, he's doing
the sin. He's doing the sin.
How
is salvation going to be? How would he
gain salvation
in both Islam and Christianity?
I'll have to be honest. I'm already clued
in to another idea.
Why don't I let Shafter Can I ask
Alexander to make the comment?
Yes. Go ahead. Make the comment. Send back
to,
Raguela to make the comment. But please make
it sure. Okay. The answer
no, no, leave the answer because the answer
is the conclusion of this session and we'll
move to the people.
Go
ahead. Go ahead, Go ahead, doctor,
Jeffrey. The answer to what? No. Oh, I
I just wanted to not
be be so much involved in the polemics
here, but I only wanted to, again, just
simply ask answer a very honest and sincere
question by, or a point
that doctor Woodbury brought up. What is this?
How could we be born into this world,
sinless, for example,
and then yet,
throughout our life, commit error and mistake
and etcetera,
and rebel against God. It comes back to,
again, a different concept a Muslim has of
his earthly struggle.
Like I said before, the 3 ingredients,
3, not the only 3, the 3 essential
ingredients to his earthly struggle are
his gift of reason,
his gift of choice,
and even to some extent as
as all bizarre as it seems, even the
gift of the adverse
environment that he is brought into.
See, when he's born into the world, yes,
he has not committed a sin. He's a
sinless child.
But through the exercise
of that reason
and the exercise of that choice
and in that environment of adversity,
wherein is his spiritual growth,
Through the exercise of those faculties, he is
bound to commit error.
As a matter of fact, error is an
essential part of our spiritual growth.
The prophet Mohammed, peace be upon him, said
if mankind stopped committing error, God would efface
him from this earth and replace him with
a creature that would
so that he would continue to grow and
seek God's forgiveness.
And this is the Muslim,
concept as simple as that. So, yes, we
believe that every child is born sinless in
a sense that he hasn't committed any errors.
We also believe another,
if you look in
the lexicons, you'll find another definition of fitra
is
an inclination, a tendency,
maybe an impulse.
So we also believe that we're born with
our reading of that verse is that we
also believe we're born with an inclination towards
good, the seed of good within us. But
unless we turn towards God's infinite mercy and
guiding light,
we, the Muslim believes that he will be
in a state of loss.
When he turns his back on that guiding
light, he's like a man in the desert
in a state of loss without a guide,
alone,
doomed.
But when he turns to that guiding light,
it's an entirely different situation. He's and, that's,
as simple as that. I'm not trying to
contend with my brothers over here. I'm just
trying to present our point of view, our
our reading of the scripture. Thank you.
Yes. To sort of answer your question, respond
to something that I think, Shacker said that,
God is 1 who who,
who gives guidance and actually who seeks
us. I would say that the the biblical
image of God is one certainly who seeks
and saves.
I think of this verse in Exodus
where God, confronts Moses, and then he says
to Moses, I have indeed seen the misery
of my people in Egypt, and it could
be this person that's sinning that you talked
about.
I have heard them crying out because of
their slave drivers, and I am concerned about
their suffering,
so I have come down to rescue them.
And the whole image of the Good Shepherd
going out to even, you know, leaving the
99th,
going out to to seeking and to saving
the people.
And
I would the Christians believe that this
desire of God to seek and to save,
to search out the lost, goes to such
an extent that He actually
came to us in Jesus the Christ.
And it was said here that that somehow
there's the idea of appeasing an angry God,
that,
sometimes it's thought
God wanted to punish
and Jesus wants to save, and so Jesus
steps in and saves us from the wrath
of God
and,
we not only have 2 gods but we
have 2 gods with 2 different opinions.
But I think the biblical teaching is quite
clear on this,
that
Christ comes from the very heart of God.
God so loved the world that He gave.
It was God in Christ initiating
this sort of seeking and saving,
and that
the Christ event is the extent to which
God will go in order to be with
us,
in order to save us. And you asked
about this man who is sinning,
I assume that perhaps he wants to be
set free. If he doesn't want to be
set free, I suppose there's very little that
one can do.
But if he truly wants to be set
free,
then my advice to him would be
to,
heed some of the words of Jesus.
Come unto me, all you that labor and
are heavy laden, and I will give you
rest.
He set people free. He cast out the
demons. He broke the shackles. So what what
should he do? He Simply you know, I'm
I'm talking to you from a Muslim background,
which is different than you. Should he say
a few words?
Should he,
offer something? What
practically should he do?
What practically could he do if he truly
wants to be free? I think he could
just, surrender, offer his life,
to God in Christ
and ask that God will deliver him and
set him free.
It sometimes can be as simple as that.
And how that's going to work out? Thank
you. It's hard to say.
Now,
who's gonna make the
the one minute answer? The one who's sitting
and
how would he, gain some patience
in in a minute, please? I don't know
what to do.
Go ahead.
God's
question.
He
asked a question while you were out. I
had an answer,
from Doctor. Vittlar. You can ask the question.
I No, please. Please.
Maybe you were outside.
Okay. That's why. So please go
ahead and answer. He said he could give
the question after you give the answer.
The answer that you find out if it's
the same question or not.
Gotcha.
Okay. The Quran teaches the concept of
God is love in a very interactive
relationship between God and man.
God reveals
his word to man, guidance and light,
since prophets, those who even reached the degree
to die
in carrying out the message to us,
for our
transfiguration
against them.
And, on the other hand, man,
reaches out to God by supplication, by prayer,
by trying to do good, reaching out to
his neighbors, all of what we have of
goodness that God had instructed all of us.
So there is,
one statement made by the prophets in which
he said,
he whosoever
comes closer to me,
1,
1,
meter,
right?
Then I will come to him 10 meters.
I will come closer to him 10 meters.
And the one who comes to me 10
meters, I'll come to him 100 meters. The
one who comes to me walking, I will
come to him running.
This is how God is portrayed in Islam.
It is not
the the vicious kind of image that many
westerners, especially orientalists,
those who study Islam from a quote and
quote Western, view. So the the sinner has
the way to approach God, and there is
a mechanism for that. The mechanism is repentance.
And once one repents to God, seeks his
forgiveness,
devours what he did and commits himself not
to do it again, and if he does
it again, he comes back again and again,
but he has to determine
every time not to come back again
and see God as forgiveness
with the mercy of God he will forgive
him.
The tendency of men to sin that is
you call the bias of sin in men.
In Quran, it is portrayed that the soul
by nature
is inclined
to evil except the ones that God has
descended his mercy on. No. No. Just a
question, please. Yes. I'm saying about to forgive
someone who transgresses because his soul has urged
him to do something is for that person
to go back to God. Thank you.
Please, you have a question.
I've been listening here to both of you
and,
I see really,
both of you are talking about the same
thing, but you don't want to admit it
somehow.
Both of you, Christian and Muslims, believe in
the same thing, in the same faith, same
God.
The Christians believe
about Jesus,
or gorging to the blood of Jesus, which
they believe, which we don't, as Muslim, or
the Muslims don't believe that,
which,
a difference you cannot resolve
and you have to admit that. But our
conference and my understanding
to find the dialogue, the common ground
that both religion believe in, and I've been
listening, and upon lots of them are common
grounds.
We believe in the same faith
and how to come back to God.
Our friend said he had to accept
deliverance to God and ask God for goodness.
He said the same thing.
So don't be talking about the same thing.
But,
the Muslim point of view
only,
affirm
that seeking forgiveness and do nothing
is not
enough. It means, Please forgive me, God, and
do nothing. You'll start doing good deeds, good
works,
for God to accept you. And the end
result, I said, accept that. I pray 5
times a day, that doesn't mean God accept
my prayers.
I have, at the end of my prayer,
as Christians who are Muslim, do please, God
accept my prayers.
Praying to get set is not enough. You
have to ask God for acceptance. And that's
all of you said the same thing.
My question only that doctor Goodford did not
explained very well to me, is the faith.
You see the Christian faith.
You you believe in Jesus and, all Christians
will be the same. To me,
I don't know if I understand
it, will you mean that or
their grace
and belief mean a Christian who go to
church
every Sunday
and come back, read the Bible,
or the Christians
who go to church, read the Bible and
build more churches and go ask for people
to convert Christianity,
and give money to the poor, and this
and this and this. Are they the same?
Or there are difference in the eyes of
God between this Christian and this Christian, this
Muslim and this Muslim. You do not go
back to that. Alright. They're quite obviously
differences.
The
rope, in John 112,
as many as
received him, received Jesus Christ,
he gave the power to become the children
of God, which would be one of the
descriptions of what it means to
receive him.
Faith from a Christian point of view is
not a sent to doctrines,
but is a a trust, a commitment to
Christ and a receiving
of Christ and his offer.
So in that category,
you are not a Christian
unless you have done this.
But,
then the Bible talks about those who are
saved as though by fire.
They're just gonna make it in the
door. And,
those
who are, building up
treasure,
you know, rather than building with hay and
rubble and and so forth. And so there
is obviously
there,
there's a concept of rewards that Jesus talks
about.
And, obviously,
there's a difference
between
Christians. So I suggest that According to the
book.
Yes. But salvation according to faith. Okay.
Okay. I'll leave it at that. It could
be noted.
I'd like you to help me make the
question of comment shorter and the
answer shortu, please. Okay?
Yes. Yes.
You all have a response, please raise your
hands because I haven't seen any answers. Go
ahead. You think it should be submitted? No.
It's not. Go ahead. Hamid, can I just
make a suggestion?
If if the questionnaire
would like to have both sides answered,
he could ask that. Otherwise, only one side
answer. It would it makes things much more
efficient. Okay. Why don't you leave that for
me? Okay? Jeffrey.
Suggestion. This is suggestion.
There's
a question here. The Christians believe that Jesus
has is like a a mediator so that
you can't come to God because we're, you
know, sinless and so we need a mediator,
you know, that
to turn our sins over to so that
when we do go to God, you know,
like in prayer or whatever, we're we're seen
as pure. And I just wanna you know,
it's just a cute question. I just wanna
know how both sides can fill it now.
So I see that that's how they see
that we're clean to go to God and
and the Muslims believe that we don't need
a mediator because God doesn't need a mediator.
So how do maybe I guess it's a
direct question to, you know, to Muslims.
I just want to know,
you know, knowledge.
How do Muslims believe that we're pure and
clean enough to go to God besides, you
know,
washing before we pray and all that? I
mean,
you know, we'll have sins in our hearts
all because we are human and we are
you know, we do sin. So how are
we ever clean enough without
conversation?
Thank you. Well, I think it is
fairly
fair to ask,
how does your heart and your life become
clean
just simply because you accepted a mediator?
The Catholics pray to Mary,
a creation of God,
and pray to saints,
yet Protestants
will completely object to that.
The pagans
have their own statues and their own local
gods
that they have thought it brings them close
to god.
Have the worship of these mediators
or the belief in these mediators
purify your soul,
purify your life,
get God to accept you.
Islam teaches
that God Almighty
is closer to each individual
than his own jugular vein.
So how do I reach God? Islam never
said
that I am 100%
clean or am a perfect. I am a
human being
born with my weaknesses,
born with my own inadequacy,
and born with my suffering and struggles through
life.
And Islam tells me that God Almighty, the
one that created me,
not Jesus the prophet, not Muhammad the prophet,
not Moses the prophet, not Mary,
not the saints, not the statues
are the ones that will bring me to
him.
Now, how did he tell me? He tell
me through the prophets
how can I reach him? He told me
through Muhammad, how can I reach him? He
told me through Jesus, how can I reach
him? You told me through through Moses how
can I reach him? You told me through,
Abraham how can I reach him? What the
Muslims take exception to is when councils,
theologians,
Paul,
enters with a different picture of how can
I reach God? We say no.
The council have no authority. The clergymen have
no authority. The priests have no authority. The
sheik have no authority. The minister have no
authority. The rabbi have no authority.
The only authority is through the people that
had been sent by God that we recognize.
Now, how did Jesus teach me
to I'm not going even to tell it
to you from an Islamic point of view,
but I will tell you what did Jesus
teach me, and I believe in it. In
Matthew chapter 19,
a young man comes to him.
Good master, what good thing shall I do
to enter into the kingdom of God? He
didn't say you must believe that I am
your God and I came to take you
to God. He didn't say you must believe
in the shedding of my blood. He didn't
say
you must worship me to get to God.
He didn't say you must go through the
priest or through Mary or through the the,
the way the counselors or the creeds or
anything like that. He said
follow God's commandments
translated to
the first commandment,
thou shall not have false gods before me,
and this is what the Muslims believe,
There is no one to be worshipped
but the one and the only creator. This
is the first of all the commandments.
And through
following God's commandments, what are the rest of
the commandments? Thou shall not commit adultery,
thou shall not steal, thou shall not kill.
So Jesus taught me, Muhammad taught me, Moses
taught me, Abraham taught me that the way
to God is through criteria.
I I must have faith in God through
faith in the one and only God, and
I must follow his commandments. Back then, I
do not need an intermediary. This is a
byproduct
of the Catholic councils later on. Thank you.
Please.
Please.
We
should,
Yeah. Here here is a question we found
up here on the table that,
That's a fortune?
Well, it's
It's not in our handwriting. We did not
we did not write it. Okay. But,
I think you can read you can read
it. You can read it and see what
you're talking. Okay. Give
I was going to ask a question,
on the subject today, salvation.
But, you know, doctor Woodbury, you prompted me
to ask this question, the following one. What
is the Egyptian edition or Egyptian version of
the bible or the Quran? That's the correct
one. And do you have one with you?
Because I'm from Egypt myself, and I go
there on a regular basis. I would love
to compare it with
this version
of Yusuf Ali. You're implying that there are
many versions, or 2 versions at least, of
the Quran. No. No. No. We're we're not
in we're not in fine versions. We're implying
the fact of versification.
Versification.
Up until 1950,
most of the English translations translations used a
versification of plougall. We're
not saying the text is different. Oh, okay.
We're saying the verses are different. I'm glad
you're
then there was a standard,
addition made in Egypt, which is commonly referred
to by scholars
as the Egyptian
edition. And that is the one in What
a version. Common use.
The problem is that in,
in this country,
most the I I I don't mean a
problem that I have a criticisms
of this. Use of Ali is used more
commonly in this country so that's why why
I use use of Ali. It has the
Arabic and the English. It does not use
either versification,
but it is so close to the Egyptian
that it's I've never seen it more than
one verse off the Egyptian.
Another English version commonly used translate,
or, addition, excuse me, addition commonly used is
the pickle
one who was an Englishman who became a
Muslim,
but it uses still another versification.
So of the common
Quran that are in English, you have 4
sets of verses.
Frequently, if you just give 1,
verse, a person looks it up and says,
this fella doesn't know what he's talking about.
I can't find it. And it may be
3 or 4 verses in front or 3
inverses. So it is the numbering of the
verses. It's been not It has nothing to
do with the text. They're all the same
version. Uh-huh. We don't have versions. We have
additions. I believe I used the word addition.
I don't believe I used the version. Alright.
That was my,
mistake if you understand
version differently. But again, we use revised standard
version,
King James version, and we're not talking about
a different Greek text. It's just whatever the
most recent one is uses
the to the best of their ability, the
Greek text at that time.
Yes.
On the topic of salvation,
I'm surprised that I didn't hear our Christian
brethren,
when we speak about salvation that they would
quote,
the concept and the doctrine of salvation as
it is
portrayed and conveyed by,
Jesus himself in the Bible.
I've heard,
spitterings of that, but mostly I've heard this
doctrine portrayed by, Paul who himself in 1st
Corinthians chapter 2 verse 2 says that his
only concern with Christ was that he was
crucified.
This is
his only concern with Christ was that he
was crucified. This is his only concern with
Christ. This is his only concern with Christ.
This is his only concern with Christ. This
is his only concern with Christ was that
he was crucified.
This is his only concern. He's not concerned
with the teachings of Jesus. So we say
that the teachings and the doctrines of Jesus
is quite different
and of his immediate followers, those who walked
with him, who saw him, who knew him
personally,
that their teachings and doctrines and understanding about
salvation
is totally opposed to that of Paul.
And I'm surprised also, and I would like
to have questions like when you spoke about
the ransom,
in Mark chapter 10 verse 44 and 45
that Jesus came to give his life a
ransom for many, that Luke disagrees with this.
In the same speaking in the same,
context there, in Luke chapter 22
verse 26 and 27,
Luke does not see the necessity of of
of salvation through death of Jesus Christ. He
speaks about the same incident there and he
mentions nothing about ransom percentage.
Plus,
I would like to have the question answered,
is there a concept of unforgivable sin in
the Bible?
What is an unforgivable sin? Is there any
sin that cannot be ransomed
unforgivable?
If so,
and that is the case in Matthew, chapter
12, verse 31 to 32, that is the
case of an unforgivable sin, unforgivable
in this life and the next life,
Then if that's the case according to Matthew
12, 21,
then in the original Greek text there, it
applies and the implication, and it is stated
there really quite quite frankly, that even Jesus's
family, his mother and his brethren, are guilty
of that unforgivable
sin.
Also,
where in King James
I'm sorry, but I would like to also
know about Judas.
What will be his condition on the Day
of Judgment? Will he be saved? Now according
to one of the panelists, the the gentleman
on the far end,
last night when I posed that question to
him, he said quite frankly, no. He will
not be saved.
But according to Matthew 1928, he will be
saved. So I wanna know where did he
get that doctrine and that understanding. And perhaps
maybe if that's the case, if he reads
that and understands it, it might be a
defect in his understanding
of certain, biblical,
teachings according to the scripture as opposed to,
the doctrines of the councils and so forth.
Again, I would like to know,
in revel like the revelations,
Revelations chapter 21
verses 12 through through 14 where it speaks
about the, Jerusalem and the implying the great
kingdom coming, the the,
rapture and so forth.
How will the Gentiles
Paul along with the Gentiles, how will they
enter this paradise? We don't see any entrance
there for them. Then Paul's name is not
mentioned until that the revelator, John, there is
totally slighting Paul and his congregation. There's no
means for them to enter the paradise bid.
And in Revelation
chapter 22 verse 12
which where Jesus is supposed to be speaking
there, he says, behold, I come quickly
and my reward is with me to give
every man according to his works, not according
to his faith. This is the end. There's
nothing to talk about after that. According to
his works, not his faith. And finally,
we have the statements of James,
supposedly the brother of Jesus, who would know
more about Jesus and his teachings and his
doctrines,
than Paul.
And if you read this, it's quite extensive
there, but Paul used a verse there that
James used against him.
Paul used it in James
chapter 2 verse 21, was not Abraham
our father justified by works, by faith?
Paul used this doctrine to use faith. James
turned it around and used the same argument
to say not faith, but works
did. And he said, But wilt thou obey
man,
know, without know that faith without works is
dead. He has a whole
context here, but he ends up by saying
that faith without works is dead. He uses
the same argument about Abraham being justified
by works, and through his works,
it increased and
perfected his faith. But this is quite extensive.
I would like to argue these points backwards
and forward with you. However, I just have
to pose it in this manner now with
the short time that I have and you
have those references there. If you like to
respond to them, you can respond to them
and put them on record.
We are finishing at 12, are we?
Yes.
I So that I I'll let you decide.
But how What time it didn't put PM
or AM? Let
let me,
Go ahead. Let me, just suggest something.
We are quite happy to interact with all
of these, but we do have a fairness
to the,
group itself that, many of whom have been
sitting here for 3 hours.
So that,
let me,
let me just make 1 or 2
comments,
on this and,
maybe we will have to correspond
in litters to to handle the rest. I
that's the only way I see to be
fair here. Okay.
Let me just say that as to a
difference in teaching between,
Paul and Jesus, we have,
throughout the morning, been with quoting Jesus repeatedly,
in places like Mark 10 45
in,
John 112 where a disciple is a disciple
who lived with Jesus,
is explaining,
the meaning of Jesus, which he would have
learned,
from Jesus.
As to the faith and works issue,
we have explained,
we've already said that there are rewards according
to,
our works, that works are important, but our
actual salvation,
as we understand it, is,
by faith. But, I think one thing that
will help a great deal here is for
us to see,
a number of the images or models that
are given
in scripture to explain what salvation is all
about.
In explaining to each type of person, it
is helpful
to use images
that they are familiar with.
And so the the Bible,
uses numbers of images, and,
I'll just ask that,
Harold,
just list
a few of these images,
with respect to the the time,
here so that we are We're gonna go
15 minutes for
Easter. Okay. Okay. If you can just list
some of the images, I'll be happy to
correspond on on the other issues.
Excuse me. Okay. Again, you you said you
you, quoted what Jesus said. Jesus said here,
according to Matthew chapter 5 verse 17, 18,
19,
think not that I have come to destroy
the law or the prophets. I come not
to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I
say unto you, till heaven and earth pass
away, not until Paul comes to bring salvation
through grace, till heaven and earth pass,
not one jot or one tittle of the
law shall in any wise fail. Then he
goes on to say, whosoever
therefore, whoever it might be and he doesn't
know Paul at the time,
but perhaps he has the,
intuition that someone will come along. So he's
warning his immediate disciples right now. He says,
whosoever
shall break one of the least of these
commandments, not a great one like circumcision
circumcision, which in Genesis is supposed to be
an everlasting sign of the covenant, everlasting. Everyone
does it, including Jesus.
Whosoever shall break one of the least of
these commandments,
or shall teach men to break them, like
Paul taught them, shall be called the least
in the kingdom of heaven. But whosoever shall
do and teach others to do shall be
great. And then he says, not, many will
say to me on that day, Lord, Lord,
didn't we do certain works and and beat
and cast out demons and so forth in
thy name in Matthew 7/21?
He says, not to say to me, Lord,
Lord, but whosoever shall do the will of
my father which is in heaven. So Jesus
taught the doing of deed. He said that
the scribes and the Pharisees in Matthew 23,
they sit in Moses' seat. So whatever they
they command you to do, do
that because they know the law. But don't
follow their example because they're hypocrites.
But practice what they tell you and outshine
them. So this is action and and we
say that, James supported that also. Action.
But if you will, just
notice all of our Lord's teaching rather than
pulling, little incidents out here and there,
Who who was the main person that,
Jesus,
criticized in his teaching? It was the Pharisees,
the very ones who followed the law most
closely.
He criticized the law not following the law.
This is what he criticized before. He No.
No. No. No.
No. He just a a minute. He said,
you you fast,
when you
well, let me just pick one example rather
than trying to deal with it too broadly.
Remember the parable of the,
Pharisee and the publican in the temple.
The Pharisee,
he not only followed the law, he did,
far beyond the law. He said, I'm thankful
that I'm not like this sinner
here. I fast twice a week. They only
had to fast once a year. I fast
twice a week. I give of
all I possess and own. He only had
to give certain,
a tithe of certain things, but he gave
us so he went beyond the law. And
yet the teaching of that parable is
you can do all of those right things
in the law
and still go down from that Temple Hill
unjustified because your heart attitude
is wrong.
And so,
I I don't see a basic,
difference here.
Again, I'm happy to deal with it, but
I'm trying to look at the time and
be faithful. Okay. But here's what he said.
Here's what he said in Matthew 23:1-three.
Last statement. He said, then spake Jesus unto
the multitude
and to his disciples. He's telling everybody this,
not just personal,
like he would do sometimes. He wants everybody
to understand this now. He says saying, the
scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat
regardless of what they do. Respect them regardless.
Just like our imams, you know, if we're
leading the salah, he makes a mistake, we
don't lead run the salah. We follow him.
He has that position. We correct him, but
yet we follow him through. So we say
that they sit in, Moses' seat.
All, all, therefore, whatsoever
they did thee, observe
that observe and do.
But
do not ye after their works for they
say and do not.
So he said except your work, exceed their
works. You see, this is the point. Unless
he canceled us out at some other time.
He explained what the,
exceeding meant, and I think that one parable
gets the the essence
of what it was all about.
Yes, please. Do you do you want them
to work on that? Do you want him
to go through the models of self,
the the images and scripture of salvation
that you wanted to use? I think you
you talked enough, I mean, for the time
being. So let's move to them and listen
for some
notes, and then we'll come back to you,
if you don't mind. Well, I think that
this question is directed maybe to both sides.
Maybe on our side, we're expecting an answer
and on the other side, a comment. It's,
question that reads like this.
And
I appreciate no. It's a question. I appreciate
the openness and candor which I've witnessed among
our panel members, and we appreciate it as
well.
My question to our Muslim panel concerns oh,
it's just to the Muslim panel. Concerns an
important issue on Christian Muslim relations regarding
conversion,
the right of Muslims to convert to Christianity.
I personally have heard imams from 2 separate
mosques here in Missouri address this issue.
Both both said if one of their children
became Christians, they would feel obliged to kill
them.
I understand that Islamic law in most of
the nations of the Middle East and North
Africa protects the right of Christians to convert
to Islam.
However, it prohibits Christians from talking with Muslims
about converting and prohibits Muslims from converting.
I would like each of the panelists to
address this question.
Can I pass on addressing it? I'm tired.
Does Islam prohibit Muslims from becoming Christians and
encourage families to prevent family members from converting?
That's about it. There's a follow-up question. I
I'll,
see how this goes. Alright. We just gotta
get back to salvation.
Excuse me. On the
issue of
conversion.
First of all, what happens in the Muslim
country and our panelists on the other isle,
Doctor. Babler lived in Egypt long enough to
know
that, it may and it may not reflect
what Islam is. Do you agree Doctor. Tabakos?
Thank you. It may and it may not
reflect what Islam is, whether in Egypt or
elsewhere.
So realities do not make religion, but religion
should shape reality.
The fact that
Islam accepts,
anyone entering into the religion, it is the
openness of Islam. Islam invites everybody to come
to Allah, submit to him,
read the scriptures and
follow what it says to the letter and
the spirit as much as they can. And
this is the spirit of Islam as much
as you can.
There is a law
in every single country.
We're talking here about a country law,
and an Islamic law. There is a law
in every state in the world, whether secular
or otherwise,
about what they call the grand treason law.
The grand treason law calls for anyone
who rebelled
against this country. It is law.
It is objection,
objective.
And what it is about that this person
has committed the utmost
unacceptable crime? And the punishment is what?
Can someone answer?
Debt.
Death. No compromise because he's committing,
the greatest and the grievous of disobedience and
rebellion against the country.
Islam does not believe in boundaries, so to
speak, as established by man. Islam believes that
all the earth is the earth of God.
Yet does not provide for Muslims to apply
the law of God,
except on a territory or piece of territory,
that they have sovereignty over. For example,
Muslims are minority in America.
If someone
reverts from Islam to Christianity back or forth
or whatever,
Islam does not really provide
the authority
to execute the law of grand treason, so
to speak, on that person. But if he
does it, in a country where Islam is
established as a way of life,
as a holistic comprehensive system, where it addresses
individuals, families,
social system, economic system, educational system, political system.
If Islam is really applied comprehensively.
And here's a person
who has either been a Muslim for his
life or accepted Islam on free will.
In Egypt, for my own personal knowledge, because
I work through the system, in Al Azhar,
doctor can correct me. If any Christian comes
to accept Islam,
it is required that they call 2 ministers,
not 1,
to come and minister to the person
and ask him questions, and answer those questions.
And no one will attend to it. It
will be very private.
And then after they finish,
if the man is still convinced, I want
to become a Muslim, then
he will go to the person,
in or whatever, and he will be the
will call for 2 ministers for him. Doctor
can check this for me or or correct
me.
Christian ministers.
Yeah. Can can I ask you a question
just for the benefit of the audience since
this is a critical issue? Yes. Do you
know what
the Hanafi School
We will talk about it. Yes. We will
talk about it. Let's establish
but The Quran makes it so clear that
let there be no compulsion in religion, no
one forces anyone to accept
Islam,
or should enforce
anyone to accept any religion. Islam would also
defend the right of a Christian, a Jew,
who lives under the Islamic
jurisdiction,
not to be forced or
pressured
or even persuaded
to accept Islam one way or the other.
On the contrary, if it is discovered that
someone is,
trying to be a Muslim under persuasion or
pressure,
his declaration of affairs would not even be
accepted.
That's the law of Islam. So coming into
Islam, into the fold of Islam, with this
attitude through this procedure,
then one lives with Islam, lives with Muslims,
lives by Islam to discover the beauty of
it. It is the religion of Abraham. It
addresses issues that he might have had with
him in Christianity in more clarified,
decisive
way about Jesus, who Jesus was, who God
is, what is the relationship between prophets and
their creator, what their mission was. It addresses
all of this. After all this
comprehension
and acceptance,
and and the love and the the application
of the religion in his life, then he
decides
on his own free will shortly.
Okay. The question was long.
The answer has to be long.
Then he decides to to reverse. What is
he reversing against is really
the only law of the land which is
the the law of oneness of God and
devotion and submission to him. He is reversing
against
the doctrine and the eternal reason for which
the entire state is established.
To me, it is equally
equal to the grand reason that a person
would commit against the country because Islam, as
I said, does not protect just Allah. It
basically establish a state to serve the religion
and not a religion
to serve to, protect the state. However, in
Islam,
he does not have to be killed according
to some schools of thought that are recognized
and well respected.
And not only that, but he will be
given
unlimited number of days to repent. Some scholars
go to say, he may not be killed
at all so long as he is in
discussion and communication about what he wants to
do, why does he rebel on Islam?
Explanation will be given to him so long
as he wants to.
So,
the the issue about killing an apostate or
persecuting an apostate for his faith,
is is
done
under
some schools of thought, some go against it
and they say, no, he doesn't have to
be killed, it's a freedom of religion. And
we have 2 schools of code dealing with
this, and it only happens under the jurisdiction
of the Islamic State. One one short brief
note, because you have to reflect the two
sides of the coin. I know. So we
have it without fighting. I am, glad that
Cheka have emphasized
that there are different
scholars, different points of view. This is one
of the openness of Islam to accept more
than one point of view.
I am very proud to say that the
Quran is the only book
that says,
There is no compulsion in faith. There is
no compulsion in religion. To me, it is
a pure
unadulterated statement
on the decision
of each individual to select the faith, to
select the belief,
to control
what they believe in, to make a decision
for their own. History tells us that Christians
and Muslims live
in complete freedom
with the Muslims. The condition that brother Shakir
also beautifully emphasized
about all these steps, This applies into the
Islamic
States, and so far, none of these countries
in the Middle East as far as we
know. These are governments like the government of
Egypt, the government of Israel. That these are
not Islamic government.
The majority of the people might be Muslims,
but we know very, very well that these
are not Islamic countries where Islamic laws are,
applied even. I mean, Muslims themselves are prosecuted
under these governments just like as much as
or maybe even more than anybody. We are
running out of time, sir. I know, but
this is an important very important question.
For the plane. Oh, I'm sorry. What I'm
going to say is,
if you study the history of Christianity, you
will find out there has been an awful
lot of killing about conversion from Catholicism to
Protestant and persecution.
So actually, if, if we will get this
point here, we will find it more applies
to the Christian faith or the history of
it more than the Islamic faith. Thank you.
Thank you. May I ask you kindly to
just
make a final
comment
to one of you? And,
each of us or just one of us?
Just one, because we're running out of time.
Oh, okay. I'm I'm sorry. Both of my
colleagues
have,
each of them have a final Let's make
it 30 seconds or something. Okay.
Or 2 minutes forward.
Okay. Let me just read what I've, what
I've written here,
very brief.
First, a word, thank you for this opportunity.
I think it's been
a great occasion to meet and to share
and to be together in spirit,
in mind and heart,
in the presence and under the lordship of
God. I think all of us recognize that.
These comments, Muslims are disturbed,
agitated,
even angry that Christians attribute
divinity to Jesus. I think we saw some
of that in this conference.
Christians too are deeply disturbed with Muslims
not because they attribute a divine status to
the Quran,
but because they refuse to attribute to it
or recognize anything in it as being human.
Muhammad, we are told, had absolutely no part
in the making of the Koran.
It is totally and utterly
a divine book.
When certain Christians in the past insisted on
the absolute divinity of Christ by refusing to
recognize and even deny his humanity,
the Church collectively
rejected this stance as being
heretical.
And they did so because it ran counter
to their experience with Jesus of Nazareth.
He was born, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was
crucified dead and buried.
These are all very human experiences,
and they could not and should not be
denied.
But in Jesus they heard and saw and
experienced
what they came to believe
was the very presence
of the living God,
God who in the past had spoken through
the prophets at many times and in various
ways,
was now speaking by his son.
God was present in Jesus of Nazareth.
Eventually, this divine presence in Jesus was spoken
of in many ways and with many images.
But in and through them all, the Church
refused to lose the humanity of Jesus.
He and the creed finally came to say
he was perfect man and perfect God. It
was the best they could do.
But in saying this they preserved I believe,
and this is so central,
they preserved the central and fundamental
message of the Qur'an,
Allahu Akbar,
God is greater.
God is greater than Christianity.
God is greater than the Bible.
God is greater than Jesus of Nazareth.
Now I hope that through the conversations and
through the meetings that our Muslim friends
also would feel free to say
Allahu Akbar. God is greater than Islam,
God is greater than Mohammed,
God is greater even than the Quran.
We have said in the Christian church that
one of the greatest,
fears of the pastor is that they should
speak of things sacred and make them
profane that they should speak of things that
are great and make them small
that they should speak of Jesus
the Christ and make him of no account.
I think that and I hope that we
have not committed
that sin.
I just wanted to say one thing if
I may on the the, item on, coercion
and religion and then, a short summary of
what the Christian idea on salvation
and this is a problem for the Muslims
to resolve. But if you tell a person
that there is no compulsion in religion but
I will kill you if you change it,
he will probably think there is compulsion there.
I'll leave that with you to discuss among
yourselves.
The topic we were thinking about was salvation
and we we showed from the scriptures that
the original teaching about salvation
was one where God himself
provides a substitute to do for sinful man
and it begins not with Paul, not even
with Jesus or Moses or the prophets.
It begins in, in Genesis there with God
himself
doing himself
this act of providing a substitute as a
means of dealing with the sin problem. And
then as we come, I'll jump immediately to
the new testament and Jesus himself.
He teaches about a new birth,
a radical change, not merely a mere growth,
but a,
a remarkable change from whence one begins a
process of growth.
And the goal of the Christian is not
merely to have information about God, but it
talks about knowing God himself.
And indeed,
throughout eternity, we will not be kept separate
from God knowing he is out there and
different from us, but he is one that
we are becoming like. And this is a
more broader picture what Christian salvation is. Thank
you.
I would like to take this opportunity again
to express,
our gratitude and sincere
thanks,
for brother Hamid and for the people who
sponsored this event. And,
it's been a great pleasure to come back
to Kansas City after 19 years.
It still it still have a lousy weather,
as usual.
And it is my great pleasure,
I knew Reverend Chastain and
I know very well, Reverend Boblar, but it's
also my great pleasure to meet
with distinguished Doctor Woodbury,
my great honor, and
we learn quite a bit from him.
I was very, very happy to hear,
Reverend Boglar emphasizing that God Almighty, the creator
of heaven and the earth, is greater than
not only all of us but He is
greater than Muhammad, He is greater than Jesus,
He is greater than all the prophets,
He is greater than everybody
and I was very, very happy
to hear him affirming
the
slogan which should be for the Muslims, for
the Jews, for the Christians, for all mankind
that is Allahu Akbar.
God is the greatest. God is the one
and the only reality
in,
this universe and in this life.
Islam is not a religion
that is different or new. The teachings of
Prophet Mohammed and the teachings of the Quran
are neither new nor different.
Islam is a religion that is a revival
and restatement
of all the religions of Jesus,
Moses, Abraham,
Noah and all the prophets.
The core expression
of faith in Islam is.
There is none to be worshipped
but the one and only creator.
The one that created the Muslims, the one
that created the Christians, the one that created
Mohammed, the one that created,
Jesus.
Through
unadopated
monotheistic
belief and breadth,
Not just a statement, but it must be
put also in,
practice.
So I would like to conclude
that Islam is neither a new religion
nor a different religion. Islam has been around
since God Almighty created
mankind. Thank you.
I think we should give doctor Woodbury the
final would you like to have a final
say?
It doesn't matter. I would say either the
last or second to the last, I think,
would be in order. And I'll let Shafter
go next and then doctor Woodbury. Well,
I'll just, again, reaffirm what the the rest
of the my brothers here have said on
both sides,
that I think, I've gained much in this,
program. I've gained much in terms of friendship
and knowledge and understanding.
And I hope that the next time Muslims
and Christians,
brother Hamid organizes a venture like this, we'll
even get to maybe, perhaps, a more authentic
sharing of ideas and communication.
Not that I'm not saying people were not
presenting authentic views, but I mean, get beyond
some of the super some of the superficiality
that I think we were getting bogged down.
But lastly, in terms of the issue of
our earthly life or the man's struggle in
his earthly life, I just would like to
briefly just give you one symbol that I
think for Muslims is a very important sign.
And the Quran, brings uses this as a
parallel to
God and his relationship to man. And I
think it's the most appropriate parallel and beautiful
one for, Muslims. And it is the parallel
of a mother and the birth of her
child,
this
and a relationship to a newborn
child.
This parallel is drawn twice in the Quran
and sayings of prophet Muhammad, peace be upon
him, as
well.
Just a child is brought into this world
by an irrepressible
will towards love and mercy on the part
of his mother, Muslims too believe that they
are brought into this world by a much
greater, much more, and a great and infinite
irrepressible will to love, mercy, and create.
And in that separation
from that divine source, of course, we experience
suffering and adversity,
trial, growth,
error, progress.
It is another stage in our creation from
our point of view. A chance to and
someday,
through that growth, experience an infinite mercy, the
infinite compassion,
the infinite beauty
and nearness to Allah,
God most great. And with that, I'll turn
it over to, brother.
No new party.
It
has
been my pleasure meeting every and each one
of you. This is my first encounter with
the 3 of you and as well as
Doctor. Matson, who left.
And
it is an experience I will always remember
with the amount of
knowledge, sharing,
consideration that I have seen, that I have
to admit,
you must have
handled
the issues,
and even yourself in a way that I
really
would like to comment,
before I go to make any comments.
And
Better wait and see our reaction.
I continue to commend it at the end,
anyway.
On the other hand, for those of the
audience who are not here from the beginning,
I'd like just to,
make a
snapshot
that, you referred to many times.
This convention has really brought
2,
have 2 religions who are almost thought to
be, a 100% contradictory to one another,
together to talk. And the purpose of the
talk was
to discover commonalities and to address issues of
differences, and we I think, I believe we
did,
to a certain degree of, scholarship
that I really will always remember, that, this
meeting
has gained me a lot of knowledge and
a lot of experience.
We discussed God, we discussed Jesus, we discussed,
the Salvation, as you have heard the last
session. We also discussed the books, Prophet Muhammad,
Prophet Jesus, the Quran, the Bible.
Each took one full session.
In a brief
snapshot, I would say that the Muslim position
on all these issues is as follows:
Islam
submission to the will of God is the
religion of Abraham,
Nuh-uh, Nuh-uh,
Moses, Jesus.
Also I would like to tell our Christian
guests who took the trouble to come today
and be with us, you are welcome. It
is our pleasure to have you.
The Quran has mentioned the birth, the life
of Jesus Christ
in 2 lengthy
parts of the Quran. Actually,
there is a long,
chapter under the name of Mary,
the mother of Jesus Christ.
And in this Quran, you will find that
really Prophet Muhammad, by the inspiration of God,
did what Jesus said he will do. He
will praise me, he will glorify me.
When the prophet Jesus spoke about,
the paraclete or the comforter that he is
going to come,
We revere,
and love and respect prophet Jesus.
We think and believe in the virgin
birth of his mother. We believe that she
was chaste.
And also,
we believe that Jesus was
not only,
some would love to say, a mere prophet,
no, he is a glorified,
honored prophet among other honored and glorified prophets
as well.
His teaching is the teachings of Islam,
and I would like to conclude by reading
just 3 verses.
I will just go right after
John 316,
For God to love the world that he
gave his only son. I will go to
John,
320.
He said, Jesus talking,
he who believes in him is not condemned.
He who does not believe is condemned
already because he has not believed in the
name of the only son of God. And
this is the judgment that the light has
come into the world.
And men love darkness rather than light because
their deeds were evil. For everyone who does
evil hates the light and does not come
to the light
lest his deeds should be exposed
but he who does what is true comes
to the light that it may be clearly
seen that his deeds have been
wrought in God. Thank you very much. Thank
you.
As you have quoted a verse from the,
Bible, I would like to
refer to 1 in the Quran,
about the light
in Surah
24 verse
35. I did not plan to do this
until you referred to that one on light.
But where it's talking about,
god as the light of the world, and
then it gives an illustration.
And all people may not agree
with,
my understanding of the interpretation, but he talks
about a light shining out through glass.
And I get the picture there
of, one of the Christian monasteries,
with a light shining out from a lamp
through the monastery window.
That that's what I see as sort of
a reminder of what Christ is like.
I have to confess that frequently through if
if that is a correct,
interpretation
of of the, sort of, the symbol which
reminded,
the prophet Mohammed of the light of God,
I have to confess that Christians frequently have
not,
had that kind of light shining,
out. And it it has been, greatly,
dimmed.
And, that leads me into,
my final comment
where
I find a great deal of commonness in
the experience
of Christians and Muslims.
I have described,
how Christians see,
humans as having a bias to evil. And
as I read some of the Muslim scholars,
I see that this is their experience
too. Ibn Khazim,
a champion of, fundamentalist
doctrine,
I believe that the human soul if left
to itself spontaneously
inclined towards dishonesty.
The most celebrated,
theologian,
in Sunni Islam Al Khazali,
says that the fall is repeated
for each individual.
Say it was saying,
one of my professors
say a Shiite
Muslim, talks about,
the limited prison of a person's carnal soul.
And, then the Imam Khomeini,
which
I agree a great deal within in his
understanding
of of humans as he said, if the
whole world is gathered to him,
he will not be satisfied that is to
a human. You see, the mighty who have
great power seek more power. Arrogance
should be stopped, and ego should be controlled
in everything.
The downfall of man is that he wants
absolute power, the power of God. And this,
I think, Christians and Muslims,
can agree on.
You should pay attention, and all of us
should pay attention to the fact that man's
calamity is his carnal desires.
And this exists in everybody,
and it is rooted in the nature
of man. I realize this is a more
Shiite,
understanding, but it's one that I can resonate
with,
as a Christian.
And that's why what we're discussing for both
of us is so important,
why we both need to listen very, very
closely,
to each other.
And this is one reason why I, as
a Christian at least,
see
that, the need for what,
we understand or what Jesus understood as a
new birth,
to deal with this kind of a situation
and may God grant that we may
be of help to each other as we
seek to together,
overcome the condition in which we find ourselves.
I'd love to
thank you all for all your patience and,
for your participation.
I'd like to share with you
a few seconds.
Promise I'm not gonna take a long time.
But,
I see a necessity for us to understand,
that we need to have these kind of
dialogues.
And,
TELT has,
gone through many of these dialogues management and
organization of these dialogues.
And I feel that we reached
a level where we can have challenges of
communication open,
where we can listen to one another and
wait and be patient and smile.
And, you know, sometimes get angry and sometimes
ask for more time and sometimes open
new points and so on. So it's really,
the whole event is a new experience for
all of us. And I guess, in my
opinion,
it's a very enlightening experience and it's a
experience and it's a very positive
experience. It helped me, myself,
to see a lot of things that I
was not aware of. And
it helped me understand
how the Christian mind thinks,
always,
deal with Christianity through the Quran. And the
Quran really does not teach Christianity
to tell you the truth.
It answers certain issues concerning Christianity.
I think there is a need to learn
about Christianity
and, promise,
as a Muslim, that in the future, we'll
plan
for
sessions like this to learn
about Christianity from Christians
themselves, not from Muslim sources, that would be
very helpful for us.
I'd like to thank Doctor. Babula,
Doctor. Woodbury,
and,
Chastain,
Reverend Chastain,
Doctor. Mosse,
Madam Chaitri Saeed,
and Doctor. Jeffrey Lyne, Doctor. Gillette Meadow,
and Doctor. Paul Maxim, who let both of
them live. I'd like to thank you all
for your participation. And on behalf of the
and Reverend Jack Corey,
participation was
very enlightening to
Doctor. Hamza,
both of them came, in fact,
from Chicago and from New York. So I'd
like to thank them all. And on behalf
of the,
Committee of the Religious Dialogue, I thank you
all for coming and I hope to see
you in our next dialogue. Thank you very
much. Thank you very much.
And you have lost hope of hope. You
have lost hope of hope. You have lost
hope of hope in this time.