Interaction Between Men and Women

Jamal Badawi

Channel: Jamal Badawi

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I think brother fell, it

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was very, very ambitious. expecting that within a span of 40 minutes or so that all of these issues will be covered even in the most superficial way.

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Even the mic doesn't accept.

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In fact,

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many of the very interesting and relevant questions here is

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pertain to the issue of gender equity.

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And I'm not making a commercial by the way.

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If anybody doesn't know that, I hate to say it, but I just want to make it for clarification. I don't take a penny on royalties on any audio or video tips or publication. So I'm not making any personal thing. But most of these issues, not necessarily all pertaining to leadership,

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the concept of equity and equality are covered. And I think most of you have obtained a copy or some of you have access to that. And if it's cheaper for you to Xerox, you can go ahead and Xerox it, no problem.

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But that issue has been covered a whole lot. I mean, there have been lots of discussion of that and lots of material already available on

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secondly, a group of question also, which are important and relevant, worries pertaining to the question of family and laws of marriage and divorce and related issues.

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And that to cover it in any reasonable depth even might require a separate setting by itself, except that there are some questions maybe afterwards from the floor.

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And then there are some of the contemporary questions that seem to be more related, in fact,

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to a broader issue, when you speak about shaking hands are attending lectures and so on.

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Perhaps that relate to the focus that I tried to place in this presentation on something that has not been equally covered, or at least with the same

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degree of detail.

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And in fact, when the prop this the topic was suggested, interaction between men and women, I tried to focus much more on that issue in some more detail.

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And the beginning guy must refer to a quotation from Sheikh Mohammed razali,

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in which he basically says that the Muslim woman

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has been a victim of two types of javeria

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and Islamic approaches or currents. One is westernization and the other and you

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restrictions.

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But I take his statements and elaborate a little bit on it very briefly,

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on the question of westernization

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that could be a result of lack of understanding or commitment are both it could be a result of influence of an Islamic currents and ways of thinking coming from the west, especially those who either lived in the west or are in Muslim countries that are influenced by westernization.

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And also it is a result in part of the mix up between what cultural practices are and what true Islam is, resulting in the mind of some people are ignorant of the true teachings of Islam like Rushdie and Rich Dad, ministry and and others, that they blame terrible things that are happening and injustice is happening to a Muslim woman. And they blame it basically on Islam and they say Islam needs reform or Sharia needs reform.

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On the other hand, the other extreme of undue

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restriction,

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resulting in marginalizing the role of half of the Islamic Society and their role in building an Islamic Society and community and an Islamic Ummah also that need to lead this world.

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Both of these extremes and trends are important to analyze and to correct. However, in this presentation, I chose to focus on the second problem rather than the first. I have three reasons for this. Number one, that it is more related to the topic and they'd like to be focused.

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Rather than going in all directions when we have open question answer I will come all questions but when I make presentations,

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I've tried to make it focused. Number two,

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that in the issue of westernization resulting from lack of understanding of Islam or lack of commitment.

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It is not much of a problem to point it's difficulty and errors. And it's deviation from the Quran and Sunnah and looking somewhere else for values.

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And the problem with the people who raise this issue is is essentially a question of Eman and acceptance of Islam in the correct way.

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But the issue of

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undo strictness

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is sometimes presented and argued on the basis of the Quran and Sunnah. And that lead committed Muslim sometimes to some confusion and some questions. And I must say, this is done with good intention. I'm not talking like the other group, they import better. But sometimes, even with good intention. The arguments confuses Muslims when they hear it and they say, Oh, the Hadith says this. What What else can you say? And as such, I thought it would be important to point out that in many of the common issues, controversial issues, like the issues even raised by brother Khalid, that they may be more than one opinion, both both based on the Quran and Sunnah.

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My third reason is that the kind of audience I'm humbly addressing this afternoon

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is a hamdulillah.

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Muslims, they are committed Muslims, so they could be degrees of commitment, but we all have our shortcoming. But at least we all come here for a meeting like this with the premise of taking the Quran and so now as the basis of our lives, so I don't need really, to preach to the converted like this say, we can begin from that.

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Now, these are my reasons. Where did I get this information from? I claim no credit. I don't come here as a Mufti. I'm not I am a small student of scholars.

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In fact, the kinds of things that you will be hearing, reflect opinions of well known scholars who have great deal of weight and respectability, across the Muslim world, including sightsavers, Amador razali, Yusuf Al qaradawi, and perhaps one who contributed the most to the issue of women. In a recent six volume work, which I consider to be the most valuable, comprehensive, scholarly and well documented work on women by after Halle, abou Shaka. Allegra has only received information that she recently passed away May Allah Subhana Allah bless his soul and reward him immensely for the work that nobody before him ever preceded him, and the depth and full documentation

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both from the Quran and from Salman hobbyists, and in some cases, opinions also of some of the well known scholars.

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That is not to say that any of the scholars mentioned, or others who disagree with them, or mushrooms are infallible, but simply to say that it is not just somebody who's searching and looking for strange and rare ideas of people are not recognized as major scholars of Islam.

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The plan for presentation inshallah would be in five parts. One

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is to try to look at some of the reasons of this very strict views pertaining to Muslim women in most Muslim countries to is to examine as to whether we have authentic evidence from Quran and Hadith about the participation of early Muslim women at the time of the Prophet sallallahu wasallam in various activities, and spheres of life of the Muslim community. Number three, what context what kind of framework and requirement for this kind of participation or interaction or is it loose, just participate with know the law but with no framework? And Firstly, what are the common responses and replies of other scholars who tend to be more strict on this to this kind of clear evidence and

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texts, and seven Hadith and a brief conclusion, whether that could be accommodated in the remaining time or not? I don't know. I'll try to be brief, even though the topic I think is very important and needs

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not to be shopped quickly, but I've tried.

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I think there are five basic reasons

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for treating Muslim women the way it is going on and has been taking place. Number one, and I keep coming to that point again, is mixing between various cultures Eastern or Western in Muslim countries or non Muslim countries and between

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In the texts of the Quran and Sunnah, which are the only primary sources for Muslims, the classic example I gave in the previous session to give in marriage without approval or consent, that's not Islamic. But you find some Muslims think that this is modesty, this is keeping the character and morality in Islamic Society has nothing to do with that. Similarly, the people who make argument that women should not go to the masjid, because they should pray at home, there should be no joint lecture where men and women are present. I know, of course, you know, some Muslim countries were sitting like that would be regard like that big heresy, men and women a lot in the same room, even

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the way they are with each other and everything. Still,

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some people think that this kind of wish they had that understanding is Islam. At the fix, there's some things that this other man must have used. That's so conclusive that they shouldn't be. And sometimes the word of course, is used very loosely, very easily.

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Second reason that some may make their HD heads are very thick fat was

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on the basis of weak, in some cases, fabricated.

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Saying, attributed to the Prophet sallallahu wasallam, or to this, however,

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since I don't have time to elaborate in that, in one occasion, I think it was mentioned. So I'm not I don't have the time. I wish I had time to go on this more clearly. But to attribute to say it in it to say that woman is all even, or to say it now, Omar, that he said, shall we Robin Nevada, for one, consult with women but do otherwise? Or this are nonsensical statements, that from the standpoint of verification was never or were never uttered by either either either Lohan or Rama? Let alone that the argument could make mistake but actually, factually, they did not say this nonsense at all. In some cases, it's not fabricated but weak. An example of this that some of you

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might have heard, that it is said that the Prophet sallallahu Sallam once asked Fatima rhodiola Anna, what is best for women, and she said that she should not see men, nor should men see her and then he embraced her and he says the rainbow Hummingbird This is a project that's you know proceeds from similar quality of progeny.

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And that again was proven to be a weak Hadees by the scholars of Hadith. Similarly, people who say that a Muslim woman should not say Salaam Alaikum to a Muslim man

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and they say the Hadees goes like this you sell them unless you sell them or reach out to Allah Nisa, whether you sell them and so Allah vigil, men can say Salaam Alaikum to women, but women should not say Salaam Alaikum. To man that again was proven to be a weak Hadees and is contradicted by a more solid Hadith in Sahih Muslim in which on my hand, it said salaam aleikum to the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam. But these are only example I don't have time to elaborate but some of this is you find a lot of books going around, and speeches and sermons and all of this. Number three.

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Another reason is that even if the texts referred to as a sound had these sound in Bukhari and Muslim for example, or other references, and that is rated as sound,

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the interpretation is very superficial is very mistaken. Some statements of hobbyists are made for exhorting people to do right and avoid even, but some people take it in the literal sense. I wish I have time again. That could be a whole presentation by itself when they say the Prophet say that I looked at the Hellfire and the majority were women. Well, demographically speaking, the women are two to three percentage more than men. I mean, if you look at it from that paragraph, he said, but more importantly, as if the hunter explained that the Prophet was speaking about women who do certain events or certain bad things, and that's why he says yet hold on our Manifesto. Have you

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heard this about not all women, not because she's a woman or man. In the same way that in another Hadith the prophet SAW Selim say that most of the people in paradise are poor. So you could be poor and kill and do everything and got to paradise. And most of the people in the Hellfire are rich, but Horace Mann was rich, so was a black man who

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should not be taking literally in that sense, but simply This is the language of exhortation. Similarly, the Hadees when he was addressing some women say I did not see more than a few people, but he means the women that he was addressing, not the South African or the deficient Indian and understanding that has been grossly misunderstood.

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Opening issues without answering them, but what can you do with the time anyway, all they issued the statements.

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That woman was created from a bent rip. And some people interpret that as crookedness, rather than bent trip that she has a particular inclination, emotionally, that her differently. Nature is different from men. And that's why the tendency if you try to straighten her not to make her straighten, and the good versus bad, to straighten her to force her again is to have nature to think like human, you break her that means and how this begins stop. So when you say Hi, I'm Becca, and then considered to me, I mean this, if you look in depth into the real meaning of this, it is accurate, it is positive, but on the surface superficially, it looks negative, because they are

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understood and interpreted in ways that are contrary to clear text. In the Quran and Hadith, the problem is not with hobbies, or its accuracy or authenticity, but the way it has been grossly misunderstood by many.

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The fourth reason

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is that in some cases, when the text is clear, authentic texts that is being used, sometimes it is your one, sometimes it is explained an hour or in if the particular text support the opinion of one particular scholar jurist, somehow, he ignores other texts than the same subject and keep referring to one as a major arguments to make his point. And if there is something contradictory sometimes it's explained out or giving some other justification to weaken its effect rather than in a scholarly, fair, objective way, collecting all the text in one subject and try to understand them in their totality.

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A fifth reason is to lack or fail to give proper attention to some of the basic rules. In fact, that's the methodology of the roots of Islamic law. Rules such as ice or water fell harder and harder to make things easy for people without doing something wrong, of course, to make things easy and convenient, they rule which has roots in the Quran, and the Hadith of the Prophet sallallahu wasallam. Secondly, rules such as weighing the harms and benefits, there may be situations there is some harm, one cannot use an excuse that there is some harm to prevent all the good that can derive from something. So there is always the real poker scholars to speak about any situation where you

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weigh the degree of harms and benefits. And it is better actually to have lesser harm, to prevent greater harm. And there are other details was also when you compare benefits with harms.

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Thirdly, the effect of a moment value as the scholars call it, when things are so bad, that this is so common things that no matter how much you try to keep away from it, the dust of it will touch you. It doesn't justify doing harm, but it's simply mean that there could be different rules and dealing with a situation with a situation like that than just being mechanical quoting from books.

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That's so much for this first part. But let me move quickly to the second, which is the court really,

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do we have any authentic texts that seem to indicate that with Muslim women did interacts with Muslim men in the totality of Muslim society at the time of the Prophet sallallahu Sallam? And the answer is yes, and the one who did the best job on that is Abdur Rahman. Halima worship Allah Rahmatullah.

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Let's talk about maybe five categories very quickly in the matter of worship.

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No question that Muslim men and women came to the message of the Prophet sallallahu wasallam. They prayed without any partition without any question. In fact, he in many ways, he said you should allow women when they want to go to the masjid to go, but when he is

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attracted my attention, it is a sound Hadees according to Al Ambani, it was narrated in a manner in which it was said that one woman was sexually assaulted on her way to fetch replayer.

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And if we take them intelligence of many are the mindsets or way of thinking of some scholars today, who keep telling no you shouldn't do this woman cannot beat us just because of the possibility of harm. If you take that incident to them if they were present at the time of the process or send them an immediate law could have been passed. To say that Muslim women should not come to the masjid because there is danger for them. And if these people become more liberal, they say they should not come to the masjid at night. Because there is danger. That incident happen. We don't want any molestation of women anymore.

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Yet, the Prophet sallallahu Sallam knew of it

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And did not use that as a justification to prevent all the good that comes from women come to the mosque because of that isolated incident, dangerous and serious as it might have been. As far as those people who keep saying

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that the prophet SAW Selim spoke about women, praying in their homes or the masjid of their people rather than the central Masjid, there is a great deal of misunderstanding. If you caught that Hadith alone, then you can justify perhaps preventing women from coming to the mercy. But how about the other hobbyists which he explicitly say allow them to go to his own practice of allowing them to come to the masjid where the wives of the companions of the Prophet are aware of what is best for them and they are the best women. And still they came to the masjid after that hobbies and after the prophet SAW Selim died.

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Furthermore, when you look carefully at that hobbyist when the the hobbies say that her prayer and her bedroom is better than the courtyard of her house, is the hobbies in reference to the for the prayer or to the Sunnah prayer. If it's a matter of interaction or presence of men and women in the same place, why should there be preference of the bedroom rather than the court yard of her house, we're only her mother and her son, daughter, Father, or husband or their or is the hottest really referring to the privacy in prayers of sirna to get close to Allah and avoid any show off before other people. This is the way that some people keep interpreting the same hobbies. And in this

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regard to other texts, and even disregard to the detailed analysis of the text of the hobbies itself.

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We find examples even that might shock some about moving to another room, not only moving to another room for lecture, but even in prayers. We find that

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that Imam Malik gave a fatwa that if the masjid the you know, the specified area of domestic has been full. That is of men and women, men begin to file from the front woman from the back until domestic discipline and some men come together fat, whether they could pray behind them, not to shop them to some other place. And that's in prayer even.

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Okay.

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Not only this, there might be something shocking even

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about leading prayers. There is no question that man should believe the prayer for obvious reason reciting the Quran. And of course, imagine a woman standing reciting Quran with a nice voice, soft voice and multitudes of men praying behind the house, or even if she's staying in the back, obviously, that's out, there's no question as a basic rule. But we find that the prophet SAW Selim made an exception to that, in fact, by allowing a woman in his time to lead her household, which included them as in an A servant, and one apparently was an adult. And in fact, you find that this factor comes through people even who are regarded as strict on these issues, like Emily Tamia, an

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admin of nakoma. And he is and more than he actually mentioned that also, that this by way of exception has even been done, but she was staying behind them. I'm not calling for changing the situation and having women lead the prayer, or doing less at alpha, mixing people together in prayer. But I said there was a specific case, of course, the household when they hear the voice of the woman they're serving, they're familiar with that. It's not the same, like a woman leading public prayers, but even there was an exception, and leading the prayer itself.

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Number two, in seeking knowledge, and as you know, seeking knowledge in Islam is not a privilege or right, it is a duty and responsibility on both male and female.

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But then some people say no, women should only have one place to learn. It's okay. Even if man goes to teach them and even some scholar object to men oppressing women, by the way, directly, maybe through closed circuit TV, but but not directly. But even those who are so liberal and say a man can teach women they refer to an incident where a woman came to the Prophet sallallahu Sallam representing other women. And she said 11 alakija, that men overwhelms. Everyone must. They're celebrating all the time means asking you questions on, give us some time.

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And the professor said, I made a special day for them. And they said, Oh, therefore, there should be only one day for women. They shouldn't come with men, they should have one day. And they forget that what the prophet sallallahu wasallam did was to give one additional day, in addition to the documented participation of Muslim men and women, and education session and messages, that's where he gets them one extra day so that they may ask their private questions that they don't want to ask before men or because they don't have

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The same access to the prophets I send them because of shyness and their feminine nature.

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There is an incident even some of you might have heard that but think about its significance. When it says that one time, a number of women were with the Prophet sallallahu wasallam. And it said yes, if

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they everybody has a question, so they were interrupted and making lots of noise, you know, like when you get a laugh, I have a question, by the way, all this kind of noise yet.

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And it says that Rama, Rama Han came, and they all ran away and hid behind something. So in other words, you and pecan you enemies of yourselves, you hear me? Or have an all of me and not of the Prophet sallallahu wasallam? And the answer him Yes, but you are more harsh with us.

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more harsh with us. And of course the Prophet defended Amato the low hand and sit some something good. But the point here is that the prophet SAW Selim himself was so accessible, that women felt very comfortable, even interrupting him and, you know, shouting and raising all this noise. And he said the Prophet even when Omar did that, he was smiling, he was smiling, and took talk now about if you catch you with addressing women, we American maruf group will take you to prison or something like that or beat you up. This is quite different

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in the area of social relationship, even not for purposes of rabada and going to the message.

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We find evidence for example, in wedding, as narrated in Bukhari, when oma Salim

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directly came and gave a gift to the Prophet sallallahu wasallam. When it was narrated, that when Isha had her wedding, it says, someone I entered and they were men and women, that is in the same place.

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The hobbyist which is narrated in Muslim, when a woman made some kind of soap dates, and she brought it and started to, you know, tilted to give the Prophet sallallahu Sallam to drink from.

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We find evidence in Bukhari of the Prophet sallallahu Sallam visiting, but not alone. Of course, this then the issue of the framework that we've talked about. A woman, a rich woman, by the name of almost right was a very rich but very respectable woman and men, men and women used to go and visit with her.

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When Hannah, the sister of Khadija Raja Lavanya, came to visit the province of Salem and he was welcoming heart I love him ahead of us, you know, he had nothing to hide, it will come in hardened, saying nice word. But some interesting hobbies appear inside Muslim, in which the Prophet sallallahu Sallam says that it is not lawful for a man to visit a woman whose husband is away unless he has another man or two with him.

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What does that mean? That in that kind of community with diversity we're living in, there was nothing wrong, even a woman in her home and her husband is not there that she's visited but for a good purpose. But there is no hardware, there is no one to one type of situation that might raise any doubts. But two men are coming or three men are coming and there is nothing that was seen as particularly that's Muslim.

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You can go on and on the evidence is simply overwhelming. Number four, even in recreation, but not recreation, the ways things are happening today, people meeting and starting laughing loudly with a very soft voice and all of that no, innocent recreation. And we find inside Muslim when the prophet SAW Selim allowed the Ethiopian dancers. These were all male dancers, making something like a word dance with their arrows to do that, not in a theater in the masjid of the prophet SAW center. And then he allows Ayesha to watch. He carries her on his back and she keeps watching and he lets her watch as long as she wants.

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When the prophet SAW Selim even orders that women who cannot pray during reads, they should go also, if they have the period, they go out.

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But they just keep away from the place designated for prayer. Why?

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It's Islamic entertainment, not entertainment, like you know, theater or acting, happiness and joy. You read, they participate, they see the big gathering of Muslim, listen to the hotbar see the congratulation and hugging underneath. It's beautiful. That's a form of recreation, islamically based recreation, and there was nothing wrong at all with both being at the same place. We find examples where for example,

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it is said that shadow of the law entered into a tent where two people were sick. Her father of a box and VLAN and the narrator simply sink to the very end

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Sent and your way. Okay, fantastic. Okay, upper case letters. Okay. Hello. How are you, Daddy? How are you?

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Not nobody told the heart shut, keep quiet. The voice of woman is our How come? Do you talk to a man? How come you come even to a place where there is men, men and women in the sentence? Nobody raised any question about that. And that simple query, there is a case even some of you might be surprised. The narrated

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that the prophet SAW Selim saw a woman eating by her left hand. So he's actually hit her on the hand, to ask her to eat with her right hand, even touching, innocently, just hit her and left. On her hand, there was a case when the processor lamb was eating with Aisha, and it says that Rama revelon passed by, and the processor invited him to eat with him. And they were all eating from the same path. And the evidence that it says inadvertently, when Ahmed was eating his hand, touch the hand of our fish, and he got upset, because you know, it was very strict, but not like many of our strict scholars today, by the way.

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And he got very upset about that. But what does that signify? That here is our issue. The prophet SAW Salem and Rama and the same paths they're eating from because they didn't have all these paper plates that they can throw in the garbage afterwards.

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So that was the case. There was a case where,

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okay, there was a case

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of a person who used to make nice broth. And one time he came to invite the Prophet sallallahu sallam, and not notice the significance of the Hadith. Imagine the came to invite the prophet to come and have some soup with him. And the professor Selim pointed to our Isha, and say, You were heavy? And this one too? What does it mean? That our Isha was there? And the question came in? Is it go hide? Man is coming. There's a man run away.

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We're happy? And the man said, No.

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And the Prophet said, No.

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And then the man kept asking the perfect, please, with heavy and this one, too. And then finally, the man has to get on. He said, Yes, I said, they went out, racing with one another, going to the house of that man see the nature of virtual society without being uptight, unnecessarily uptight or loose. In the meantime, you know, the story of these these generous family, men and woman who had a guest.

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And they had very little foods you read that had this for some time, you didn't think about the implication, we took it only as an example of generosity, not as a depiction of the real life in the truly earliest Linux society. You know, what they did anybody remember? That they tried to, he asked her to turn the light down, turn it off, so that they pretend they're eating with Him until the guests had his full stomach? What does it mean that they were sitting together in the same room, but again, in proper Islamic atmosphere that we can talk about, I have only two minutes left, so I can only finish the two remaining points. And that second part, and then we'll see what can be done

00:33:15--> 00:33:36

after Maghrib. Because that's we can see control. One is the even participation in the economic and professional life in society. We find, for example, in Sahih Muslim, when the Prophet sallallahu Sallam praises a woman by the name of Omar Bashir, for her skin, and agriculture,

00:33:37--> 00:33:40

plants plantation. He also

00:33:42--> 00:34:23

in one situation, had a woman come to him, she was in had in waiting periods where she's not supposed to get out of her house. And it's we're not, whether it's for divorce or at the for deceased husband. But she went out with, however, to collect some of the fruits from her palm trees. And somebody, of course, rebuked her very strongly that you should be at home. That's an area to the Muslim. And the prophets, as Helen did not approve of that review can let her sit, maybe you might make some of that dates, even though the basic rule that you should stay home, but that means there was a good reason for her to go out and collect her dates. It says that a woman actually,

00:34:25--> 00:34:54

Ken's a sheep. And the professor let's say he that's in a hurry. And some people when I travel, they keep asking me if a woman kids, an animal is the millimeters Helen. No, no, no. If you're Christian, maybe it's Helen but not a Muslim woman. Stop hula Anyway, when we find a woman by the name of roughrider who used to nurse people who were injured for example, like the famous Javi sad diploma is in the Battle of the the trench.

00:34:56--> 00:35:00

There are numerous examples that you could go on. Let me finish with the last

00:35:00--> 00:35:10

When, because it's exactly 530. Even in the military and political public affairs, we find an incident narrated in Sahih Muslim

00:35:11--> 00:35:44

where somebody called the professor wanted people to come to discuss public affairs because the message was that Parliament really, and he said yohannes so masala, the wife of the process and I'm heard this she started going out with a woman sitting with her. He said, No, no, he's saying or yohannes she interpret that and ness means men. But you know, anyone who knows Arabic ness means people. Almost Salah with her deep understanding of Islam unset nm ns I am a people, his calling people I am one of those people and she went to the masjid

00:35:45--> 00:35:48

like everybody else, went on my hand.

00:35:49--> 00:36:13

The relative of the prophet SAW Selim give protection give her word to protect a mushrik an unbeliever even in the state of war and the provinces and say you're you're a woman, you have no right What didn't interfere and participate in this political process. Gentlemen, Ajaccio mahana. We will get protection to whoever you committed to protect our money on equal footing with any other noble

00:36:14--> 00:36:17

chiptune of any particular child.

00:36:22--> 00:36:34

There are much more than that, but in these five areas, at least, we come to conclusion to only the second part of the presentation, maybe after would see what the chairman is going to do with me and you.

00:36:37--> 00:36:47

inshallah, we'll come back and have one full hour of question and answers or comments session with Dr. Badawi inshallah, give you time to complete that I can take another 15 minutes maybe finish this.

00:37:14--> 00:37:15

We've got about an hour.

00:38:02--> 00:38:04

Yes, is asking

00:38:09--> 00:38:11

for a single order purchase.

00:38:20--> 00:38:21

or sitting or standing.

00:38:24--> 00:38:25

Please take a set

00:38:26--> 00:38:31

of elections of the committee and leave space for the sisters people give us a chance to let

00:38:33--> 00:38:33

our

00:38:35--> 00:38:41

doctor by the way. Okay, so a few questions already here. But just the community.

00:38:43--> 00:38:46

Exactly. I think election in our situation

00:38:47--> 00:38:47

is changing.

00:38:48--> 00:38:50

Sometimes abuse of power.

00:38:51--> 00:38:54

Whether we there was a comment made a comment.

00:38:59--> 00:39:03

All that you mentioned is very interesting, very beautiful. I haven't finished mentioning

00:39:07--> 00:39:08

a couple of points.

00:39:09--> 00:39:19

You want he wants to finish it. Okay. I'll let Dr. Whether we finish, and we'll resume with the questions and comments made. There's a Kanaka

00:39:23--> 00:39:26

salatu salam ala rasulillah. Allah, I think it's

00:39:27--> 00:39:33

important to spend a few more minutes I hope it won't take too long. You know, I don't talk too long anyway. Hopefully.

00:39:35--> 00:39:37

So that we don't act like

00:39:40--> 00:39:41

those who say,

00:39:42--> 00:39:59

Don't come close to prayer and stop at that. In fact, one brother was telling me after the lecture, that yes, he said yes, when I go home, I probably will be hearing a lot. I promised them that they will be balanced and that if need be, I can give the 9191

00:40:00--> 00:40:10

Number for him to call his travel. And I think he is the balancing of the picture is quite important. Because

00:40:11--> 00:40:15

what we did so far really was to look into the reason behind

00:40:17--> 00:40:27

the unduly strict views are position that has been taken by some. We have secondly spoken in very in a very brief way

00:40:29--> 00:40:32

about the evidence we find in southern Hadees.

00:40:33--> 00:41:09

About the participation of Muslim men and women at the time of the province I sell them in all spheres of life, we covered education, politics, economics, everything they have been, but like I say, if we stop at that is like saying la voz de la Don't come near prayers because it has also to be within a certain framework so that we don't miss understand that so that we don't try to find justification for our westernized practice by saying Oh brother Jamal said this and that he says that without really putting it also in the proper context and requirements that go with it as well. And at least as Shaban haleem suggests, there are at least seven

00:41:10--> 00:41:13

you know, you might say, boundaries are

00:41:15--> 00:41:17

requirements for that one,

00:41:18--> 00:41:43

that all of this interaction has taken place within the framework of spiritual and moral training of Muslims of their feeling of responsibility, both male and female alike, not that one expect one gender or the other to be responsible for morality on society, but all jointly felt that sense of responsibility, number one, number two,

00:41:46--> 00:42:17

that this interaction took place also, within the framework of Islamic attire for both men and women as there are requirements for both. And of course, as you know, the very bare minimum for a woman is covering up the whole body except for the face and hand provided that dress is not trying to describe the body or like to show the color of the skin this way, that treatment and dealing between Muslim men and women was based on respect for their individuality for their

00:42:18--> 00:42:33

intellectual and spiritual qualities, not their physical body. So that point was taken away the the eyes and thoughts were taking away from focusing on the sexuality of the body to deal with them as human beings. And that is important.

00:42:34--> 00:42:35

Number three,

00:42:36--> 00:43:02

it was conducted also from both sides, but especially from men side as the Quran put them first is avoiding a hot buzzer lowering of the gaze, but as many scholars including Katya yadin, and others indicated love at seminar mother doing a shadow I did watch what caffeine that the casual look to the face and hence without any feelings without any,

00:43:04--> 00:43:18

you know, passion would be permissible. And of course, we remember the Hadith, in which the prophets are seldom said to save knowledge of the law on the first look is for you. And the second is not for you, it means to keep staring for the sake of enjoyment.

00:43:19--> 00:43:29

Number four, that this kind of interaction and activities were done without coverage without excessive

00:43:31--> 00:43:42

adoration or adornment. Even though a some moderate adornment has been permitted by the professor Selim, like using cotton, or that's the eye powder or henna

00:43:44--> 00:43:45

sorts of dye for the hands.

00:43:47--> 00:43:57

And number five, that activities were not conducted in a typical way that you find in the interaction between men and women. In Western culture, for example.

00:43:58--> 00:44:01

Where do you have undue crowding,

00:44:02--> 00:44:18

mixing male and female altogether? That's why we find the prophet SAW Selim made a separate door for women to come to the prayers. He asked men to stay behind a little until women go out and not crowding with them in the narrow streets of Medina.

00:44:19--> 00:44:56

Of course, they have been also some exceptions to that in the case of Hajj, where it is very difficult to keep separation because of the huge numbers. And to some degree in conventions and meeting like this, where some effort should be done, but it cannot be totally controlled. As we were going out of the meeting to the prayer. I said, I wished somebody Remember to announce that maybe either the brothers or sisters should go first, so that they don't have to cry too much. And as a small space like that, there's nothing wrong with that. There's no discrimination. It's just a matter of the purity of interaction in an Islamic type of atmosphere.

00:44:57--> 00:45:00

The sixth requirement is to have

00:45:00--> 00:45:10

avoid at all costs halwa privacy, man and woman being alone in some place, not necessarily in a closed apartment or her home. It could be even somebody going

00:45:11--> 00:45:22

away traveling on highway with another woman who's not lawful and to him for miles and miles in the same car, even though it's in a highway, it's still the car cars could

00:45:23--> 00:45:40

get some problems could get caught problem on the way the outgoing the, or going to a park where it's so big and wide, even though it's a public place. So this kind of setting, of course, was not at all permissible was not practiced by a Muslim when they interacted.

00:45:41--> 00:45:42

Number seven,

00:45:43--> 00:46:22

that that both sides should avoid situations of interaction Even though permissibility is there by the text of hobbyists, but to avoid situations of interaction which could raise doubts about the owner of either or both side that's what the Anima komatsuna Rebbe places where people might have suspicion. And we find an example even of the Prophet sallallahu Sallam who once was talking to one of his wives. And some Sahaba passed by the saw him talking to a woman had been it was a bit dark or something. So they went away, and he called them. This is so and so my wife. And they told me they were surprised they say we trust you. I mean, why tell us? And he said no, the shaitan runs from the

00:46:22--> 00:46:38

human just like the blood runs. So he wants to avoid any person saying, oh, the prophet, I saw him talking to a woman not realizing that this was his wife. So to avoid that kind of setting, and have that respectability between both.

00:46:39--> 00:46:42

Finally, I come to the final section

00:46:43--> 00:47:11

that I promised to come to semi final because there's a conclusion but final before all right. Some people argue, after they hear all that evidence, you might be surprised how could any Muslim scholar who's learned and hamdulillah there are many learned and sincere scholars, yet they take a very strict position. How come? Are they not aware? No, they're aware of those texts better than you and I. But perhaps they have a different kind of argument in response to that to which there is also response

00:47:13--> 00:47:14

7.1.

00:47:15--> 00:47:46

Some say that what happened perhaps was out of necessity, there was a necessity of interaction between men and women, but the basic rule that they should not interact, answers. That's not the case. By examining carefully the totality of a Hadith, you find that some interaction was for necessity, like warfare, and nursing and all of that. But in some cases, there was no absolute necessity, wedding, eating foods, recreation, like we described in the message of the Prophet sallallahu wasallam.

00:47:47--> 00:47:48

Number two,

00:47:49--> 00:48:37

some say that what happened was, as they call it to a man, these are only specific cases not really rare cases, that doesn't stand Wait, in view of others. answers, not true. And again, if you check that very valuable multi volume work, you find that the evidence is by the dozens, dozens, and dozens of evidence is not something exceptional. That happened. That means that was quite common. Number three, they say no, but what you're talking about is something only restricted to the Prophet sallallahu sallam, and the Prophet is Massoud infallible answer. How about women he talked to? Were they infallible and from the purely methodological standpoint, one cannot say this is special for

00:48:37--> 00:49:25

the profits, I sell them unless there is evidence, the profit is our goodwill, our example. And unless there is evidence that is something special for him, then we cannot claim that this was only allowed to the profit, and no one else number for some say no, but all of this description probably was abrogated, when the is about hijab, were revealed. Answer. There is no evidence to that, in fact, some of the sound or Hadees, pertaining to this participation and being involved in the Muslim community did take place according to scholars after the death of hijab, so there is no clear evidence at all of abrogation. Number five, they say but these things happened in our society and

00:49:25--> 00:50:00

Islamic community that was pure, was pure was really unreal, you know, very different from the age of corruption and facade that we are living in answer. It is true that this was the best generation no question, but it was not totally free from even and you check in the Quran and so that's an example and let me tell him when I when I were lucky enough to be murdered in Medina itself at the time of the Prophet Sal, and in spite of all the instruction and teaching and the Quranic come in, they were hypocrites. They were people who were corrupt. There was that case of the woman sexually assaulted

00:50:00--> 00:50:41

On her way to visit a player, how could that happen? So yes, they were best, but they were not totally free. there were still some elements of corruption and that exists in every time and place. And if we say that because of corruption, we should be overly strict. Then why being strict with women, not with men? Like I'm giving specific examples, I'm not opening the door wide for misinterpretation. Like someone will tell. It happens. several cases I heard. He says, No, my wife should not go to the shopping center, even even if it's across the my house. Because there is facade there is corruption. There is people who would be looking at her and so on. So she should not get

00:50:41--> 00:50:51

out of her house. I go and make the shopping for her. She can't go shopping. Of course, when you tell a woman don't go shopping, how disastrous anyway. But aside from that,

00:50:54--> 00:51:36

why he's afraid that men might look at his wife and her hijab? Why doesn't he also stay at home and get somewhere else to get his shopping? Because there will be women also, in the shopping center? Why is he afraid for facade for his wife, not for himself? So why do we think always in a tilted way? You see, but more importantly, here, it's a basic rule in Sharia, again, that even a possibility of minor harm, is not a good reason to prevent a great deal of good, the example of the woman who was attacked, there is a great deal of good to be achieved. So we don't mechanically say no, the priority is to prevent evil. To what extent How far do you go to what kind of even minor

00:51:36--> 00:52:24

things and you prevent all the good that could come to the oma? Because because of a minor risk. In this case, you're really thinking in a very pure, authentic way. That doesn't exist, except in the images of idealistic people, not realistic ones. Number six, oftentimes, those scholars, they say, we are taking that position, because we have this idea that, you know, and also you have a That's right. That's, we are really, very jealous, or have a great deal of zeal about the protection of the owner of Muslims and morality in society. And that thinking sometimes is carried too far, to accuse other pious scholars who have different interpretation of something false. Like they're promoting

00:52:24--> 00:53:04

modernism, they're promoting corruption in society, do I have to support the inviting women just to go out with an uncovered, which is totally unfair, even people? I don't want to mention some great scholars have been accused of this, which actually is not what they saying at all. All in the name of protection of Arab and Muslim in the owner and morality of Muslims, and said, are these people? Or is any one of us more interested in the protection of owner of Muslim than the Prophet salallahu alayhi wasallam. So you need to be more strict than the Prophet himself, who could be more valuable and interested in protecting Muslims honor.

00:53:06--> 00:53:09

The final arguments, they say, look,

00:53:10--> 00:53:50

what you said is correct. There is definite evidence and authentic Hadees the argument is all sound but there's only one thing we are afraid if you start propagating this kind of things, people will miss interpreted. This is the people I call sometimes shopping for a fella, you know, go to the shopping center, find compared until you grab the fact that you're looking for some people might be in my term shopping for a fat one. And they might misuse this kind of things. You're talking about all the restrictions, but they forget all the restrictions and requirements, and they start just taking the Rojas things that make things possible.

00:53:52--> 00:53:52

The answer,

00:53:54--> 00:54:07

again, as Helen puts it very nicely. He said a person who is not very honest with Allah and with himself is not waiting for a fatwa from a strict alum, or a lenient alum. He doesn't need that fat one.

00:54:08--> 00:54:09

It doesn't need it.

00:54:10--> 00:54:54

And if some people miss understand, it is their problem they have to clarify and they have to make sure it's it's a matter of honesty and a plus also not trying to pick the words that suit me and forget the things and the qualifiers that also go with it. But in any case, the issue here is whether you conceal knowledge and information that is relevant to the live lives of is relevant to the lives of Muslims. You can see how the Seven Habits of the prophet SAW Selim and its implication, you can see in legitimate opinion of where he went known scholar in the past and present in the name of fear of people abusing this, even if there is a risk of some abuse, even if there is a risk of

00:54:54--> 00:54:57

some misinterpretation. concealment of knowledge is wrong.

00:54:58--> 00:54:59

Conclusion

00:55:00--> 00:55:48

Like I said earlier, the topic is important and wide. And I think the solution to me is number one, that we have first as Muslims to commit ourselves to follow the Quran and Sunnah. Whether it is stricter than our cultural practices, or more lenient doesn't matter, leave all this extremes out, but make a commitment that we try to fully and objectively and honestly understand that totality not just picking 160 here or there, it keeps throwing at the people, the totality of Paradis, and the broad objectives of Sharia, number one, number two, we have to develop tolerance and mutual respect. Because what has been said this evening, and this few minutes, will not solve all of these problems.

00:55:49--> 00:56:20

And there will be still scholars who will adhere to their strict views. We respect the rights to interpret that. But what we require of both, is to stop mutual accusation. Those who want to be strict, this their views, their views, their scollard, they're knowledgeable, they have access to the Quran and Sunnah. They're influenced as humans, by their cultures, they have every right to make interpretation, nobody should be lifted them for that. But in the meantime, they have no right to say that this is Islam,

00:56:21--> 00:57:01

that anyone who differ with that is inviting corruption in the Muslim and those who tend to take lenient opinion on certain issues, but within the Quran and Sunnah. And with knowledge, like the scholars who said that we should not be accused of being modernistic or twisting Islam or being this or being that they have to be that mutual respect between both, we should not adopt the motto. My opinion is right, that can never be wrong, and others opinion is wrong. That can never be right. That's not what the scholars said. The early scholars, the big imams of the forest schools are in all humbleness, in spite of their knowledge and status. They would say my opinion is right, but

00:57:01--> 00:57:30

could be proven wrong. The other opinion I think is wrong, but could be proven right? And they respected each other, they followed each other even in prayers, not insisting that that person follow a liberal school. And let us look even at two companions of the Prophet sallallahu Sallam both highly respected, and both highly loved by the prophet SAW Salah economics was extremely strict, very strict in his opinion, and his was very pious, and nobody criticized him for that.

00:57:31--> 00:57:49

But it is used to be more lenient, like the qaradawi of his time, but within the Quran and Sunnah, and the Prophet never objected to him. That's why like, they say, when people look for roxa, they go to cannabis, when people are looking for some more linear thing when they are in difficulty. They don't go to the go to nab this.

00:57:50--> 00:58:10

Well, but that's different from shopping for a veteran that there was a fitting to, you know that somebody has a fixed things in mind. And you get the opinion after we keep looking for something that may remotely justify what you want to do. No, if not best was also given opinions based on the Quran and Sunnah. But his, his level of understanding, and his interpretation of the

00:58:12--> 00:58:33

overarching principles and objectives of Sharia was quite clear in his mind. Nobody criticized it. And today we have economics. In some countries of the world, some Muslim countries, some economic who would not even approve a woman driving occurred, even though the profits are seldom women driving kemmons, which was their Toyota's and Mercedes and Fords

00:58:34--> 00:59:14

and there are inaccuracies, or it should be mutual respect. I could say I see this problem with that interpretation, but they have the right we should not accuse each other like some people are doing in abroad. And even in North America, you find some elements of people going, you know, whether we say this and this one time, I was shocked, really shocked that I was in a visit to London, and one brother told me that one of the people who speak a lot about Islam in North America was visiting Britain. And he said brother Jamal, whether we want to give a lecture on Hades on University of California, and he said that the Prophet Salas Allah made mistakes, and Allah forgot to correct him.

00:59:16--> 00:59:44

I said the brother or sister was asking, do you think I would have said that? He said that that's the reason I'm asking because I know your tapes. I know you're writing. I said Subhana Allah, how could anyone you know go that far? Because he differs in some opinions with me, yeah, that's the kind of attitude just accusation Oh, these are modernistic people. They belong to us, Rania and Macedonia and all this other niggas. Anyway. The third aspect is that whenever there is any

00:59:45--> 00:59:59

chance for people who take different views and different interpretation to get together, the discussion should not be emotional. So not because my chef said this, I only follow this other man and the other Mr. cavani than nothing. This is really very

01:00:00--> 01:00:21

arrogant, very arrogant, because I follow one particular scholar to call other elements, whether they are strict, both whether they are strict or lenient, that these are not to be taken from, they are not really good source of Islam. This is the ultimate of intolerance, they should be objective discussion, all of this issue should be put on the table. Number four, we should understand

01:00:22--> 01:00:52

that the revival of this owner cannot take off, the oma cannot take off with one wing, there are two wings needed, the men and women, the two wings for the the know of this, as it was, in the time of the prophet SAW center, that is even more important at the time where both men and women of other faiths are working hard to convert to Muslims and to convert them from the religion while we are still arguing with a woman can go to the masjid. Can she come to the lecture in the in the

01:00:54--> 01:01:05

the mosque can sit on one side rather than in the back? What kind of arguments are we engaged in, when the hold on man is threatened with extinction even physically.

01:01:06--> 01:01:19

For three, there's one more trait of the fifth. And that's it. So fee, to be very careful, to be careful not to go to a flat earther free to go to extremism hollow or Mozilla

01:01:21--> 01:02:02

overly strictness or over because, for example, on the issue of duties of women, maybe sometimes I talk more about the legitimate rights of Muslim women. And the fact that we don't have enough time to talk also about their responsibility to their husbands does not mean that it is something that should not be considered. It simply means that a lot of time speakers when they come to speak to women, they keep reminding them of their duties. So I am simply balancing that picture, I'm not ignoring it. I'm simply balancing the picture so that you don't get all speakers speaking about one particular thing, but both should be balanced. The importance of the family should be uppermost.

01:02:03--> 01:02:18

I admired very much, Mashallah the example that was given to us by our sister, people who are willing to sacrifice even professional careers and lots of money, to give priority to their children, that should be treated really with great respect and appreciation.

01:02:19--> 01:02:58

So the fact that we speaking on one side, doesn't mean that women also do not have duties and responsibilities as mothers and wives, and the notion in the West, rights of women rights of this rights of gay like to be and all of this, all this, this reflect this a very wrong notion. There is no right with without duty. Islam speaks about duty and responsibility. You do your duty towards Allah towards your husband, your family, your your Muslim community, you will get your rights, because this is reciprocal. So we should also think of it this way, because sometimes people tell me that after your talk, brother Jamal, I don't know you will be trusted with our sisters. No, I don't

01:02:58--> 01:03:14

mean to put you in trouble. And like I say, 911 is available to them. You know? No, I don't want to put any in southern but I'm simply balancing the picture. But I'm reminding both brothers and sisters, that we should all aim not just as my rights, but my responsibility also.

01:03:15--> 01:03:30

And finally, I pray to Allah subhanaw taala to help us all in our search, which cannot take place properly unless there is a floss first. Unless we're really sincere in seeking that. And may Allah give us that class, so that we have better understanding, and hence better practice.

01:03:41--> 01:03:46

They give some priority over others because they deal directly with the issue.

01:03:49--> 01:04:03

And this one says I think some Muslim men seem to be threatened by any Muslim woman who has a an independent character way of thinking. If you agree with that, what would you say to them?

01:04:05--> 01:04:08

I'd say first of all, relax brother.

01:04:12--> 01:04:23

The Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam and the Quran. When it speaks, it speaks about also independent personality, independent mind of both men and women.

01:04:24--> 01:04:28

There is no reference that I can find that can justify

01:04:29--> 01:04:47

the attitude of cancellation of the independent mind of the wife and merge that with her husband or her father. And the biggest evidence for that is that the Quran hold each human being male or female, individually responsible before Allah subhanaw taala.

01:04:48--> 01:04:59

And even in the case where the for the stability of family and society at large, like respect and obedience to parents, like respect also an obedience to husband

01:05:00--> 01:05:41

Okay, and the leadership of the husband of the household, even in cases where this is specified, you find that it is not unqualified, it is qualified, number one, by obedience to Allah subhanaw taala that means there is no blind obedience to parents, rulers, husbands, wives or anyone else. If it is this obedience to Allah, what does it mean? It means that a woman also cannot cancel her mind said he had her own mind also to think as to whether what my husband is telling me to do is haram or not. The fact that she has to think whether this is haram or not mean that her personality, her own thinking her own mind is not canceled, or it's why the Quran could have said no, just follow that

01:05:41--> 01:05:56

but unqualified. The second qualification that you find in the Quran and Hadees is Maru. And the word maarif is a beautiful broad term, literally mean something that is known means something that is not to be feared, reasonable, not very capricious,

01:05:57--> 01:06:37

even in the case of obedience, these are qualifiers for that there is nothing like blind obliteration of the personality of one tumors towards any other this complementarity. There is discipline, there is obedience. Yes, there is final leadership of these two disputes, and everybody's sticking to one at least, they neither should decide, after consultation, do consultation. But there is no consideration. So the thing is that we need is to relax. And one thing that would help us relax, is again to try to rid ourselves from the impact of cultures from which most Muslims came. When you come from a Muslim culture where a woman is told and she does period, no

01:06:37--> 01:07:08

question, when you come from a Muslim culture, which violate the teachings of the Quran of Shura and consultation, in the name of karma, because I have, I'm the leader, I am the boss, when you have this misinterpretation of the concept of pyramids of coma, then obviously, it's hard for us. It's hard for many Muslim culture and not islamically. Culturally, speaking, to find that his wife is arguing with him, I'm not suggesting that wife should argue with their husband, that's a poor way actually relationship. But if she at least argue in a positive sense,

01:07:09--> 01:07:47

you know, giving her opinion or objecting to something and talking in a nice way he can take that. Because back home, when my father said to my mom do this, she did it. And now your rebellious your Western night. But that's not the case really did not. But again, I'm not saying that we should go to the extreme, because many of the family problem that I'm familiar with, that comes to my attention in this country, is precisely going to the other extreme, that though I say as a Muslim, I cannot cancel my personality and individuality. And she keep bugging us. But for every small little thing I have as much right as you do. And it becomes a matter of like partnership in a boxing match

01:07:47--> 01:07:57

rather than complementarity in American relationship. So I think this is something we have to work on and correct, so long as we're committed to really to get to the

01:07:58--> 01:07:59

fundamental sources of

01:08:00--> 01:08:14

the second question deals with, there's a lot of confusion about what to do with the children in the case of a divorce, and what will become of the children, what will happen to the children when the parents or parents remarry.

01:08:15--> 01:08:16

Can you give a

01:08:18--> 01:08:21

reference to that in the Hadith of the Prophet SAW Selim when

01:08:22--> 01:09:03

a husband wanted to take his son from his divorced wife and he was still young. And she complained to the prophet SAW Selim said my uterus was his abort, you know, my breasts were his source of food, my lab was his place of you know, rest. And now after all that, you know, the father wants to take him, the professor sent him said Antioch covey met and that is our geochemical that you are more entitled to have custody of the child unless you get married because of course, the stepfather treatment may not necessarily be guaranteed. So that's the basic rule. But of course, in the law of custody and Sharia, in addition to that basic rule that favor the female side in custody, until the

01:09:03--> 01:09:13

child is about six or seven, in which case he may, he or she may choose to stay with the mother or go to the Father, with the access of course to the other parent always guaranteed.

01:09:14--> 01:09:35

Still, the interest of the child also can be considered. In case for example, the father is a drunkard and as a builder, in that case, even if a mother was married, and take custody of the child, it would be to the interest of the child. So this there are individual cases where the judge can apply the basic rule and make exception based on that other rule as well.

01:09:38--> 01:09:59

About the hijab in the time of Prophet Mohammed Salah seldom was it enforced and if a woman was the morning did not wear it was the type of punishment. The Prophet sallallahu Sallam was not reported to have seen people with sticks or acid buttons to try to make sure that every woman comply with hijab is that enough answer but let me let clarify

01:10:00--> 01:10:41

The prophet SAW Selim did not say let's enforce it by law, or by brute force. But you know, that hijab came later in Medina, that means for 13 years of the meccan period, women were not wearing hijab, for some period in Medina, even when they're not wearing hijab, even coming to the masjid of the profits or loss. And so it came later why? Because the focus in Sharia, that this matters should come from within, there is no way that you can hold sticks and make every sure everybody higher than starts counting the hairs that get out of the scarf. You can't do that. And if you do, that you're really intimidating people. And they're doing something just because of culture, they will not be

01:10:41--> 01:11:23

convinced, even if it's the right thing to do. But there has to be a man first belief in Allah, love of Allah, submission to Allah subhanaw taala training, and I bet that and once that relationship was established, there was no need for brute enforcement at all. There was no need. Once the AI was revealed, as it was reported women immediately they didn't argue, but is it the Quran? But this, but this, but how would that sorry about this? And how it No, all of this argument that you had, there was not there. Why? Because a man was there. That's the difference between them and us, a man was their submission to Allah was there. Once the AI was revealed, no arguments, no finding excuses,

01:11:24--> 01:11:36

they immediately got the material, like a print that they had, and immediately covered. And the same for men. As I shared the law, let's say that if the first thing that was revealed in the Quran, don't drink,

01:11:37--> 01:12:16

then some people will say Lana, the outcome or evidence, they say, No, we will never abstain from drinking booze. You want me to drink to live? Both? Yeah, that was part of their lives. Just like today, if you come to some Westerners who cannot enjoy his dinner without the drink before, and the middle and after, after, after, and all of that, well, and he said him, you should stop if you want to be a Muslim immediately stop all of that. That's what our issue is reminding us. But again, there was this gradual pent up discouragement and so on. don't pray one. And then finally, when the idea was revealed, there was no argument. Let me argument, let me finish the the couple of jars I have

01:12:16--> 01:12:54

the rockets, the cups they have, they didn't even finish it, they throw it away, because they were ready. And this is the way you should deal with it. Not to be harsh, with with our sisters, the fact that they're coming to the masjid, the fact that they're coming to systemic functions, even if they have not reached the idea level shows the love of Allah, in their hearts, shows that they want to learn shows that they are rejecting the facade that is attracting them out in preference to try to learn about Islam, they may need some time, it has to come from within, not because somebody is chastising them, or talking harshly to them. Let them learn first, of course, we have to give an

01:12:54--> 01:13:03

honest answer when the question is raised. But let them do the decision. Let's not impose it on them. Because it is basically the relationship and the responsibility before

01:13:08--> 01:13:09

a lot of women

01:13:10--> 01:13:16

I've seen in other cities where there's total disregard for any sort of Islamic dress, women come in shorts and

01:13:17--> 01:13:18

short skirts.

01:13:20--> 01:13:22

How do you deal with that?

01:13:23--> 01:13:53

Of course, the what I talked about is not to say right open the door for anyone so long that they're coming. You know, you wouldn't get somebody in a hot pants coming at the message. Of course, obviously, that disturbs the whole atmosphere and the whole function of the masjid. But it could be done also tactfully. They could be assigned at the door even for non Muslims that everybody is expected to observe at least this minimum, there could be in case you forgot not that you must in case you forgot, there are some coats or gel bags for your convenience and scars.

01:13:54--> 01:14:31

Also, that if you feel that people are doing that out of defiance or to create troubles in the masjid, it could be approached also tactfully by approaching them individually, but not harshly individually and explaining to them that at least coming to them as there is no hypocrisy if you're not observing that even outside of the message but at least respecting the house of alarm. I think any sensible person with respect that when people go to restaurants and they say you have to have a tie for that restaurant, no shorts are allowed. You do it in order to eat your fish or steak. But you don't do it when you come to the house of Allah because there is no steaks or fish panel.

01:14:32--> 01:14:44

Zack allow her in some communities, there are some Islamic Studies circles in which men and women sit in circle men on one side and women on the other side in the same room Is that allowed?

01:14:45--> 01:14:46

What should be done?

01:14:48--> 01:15:00

The question is not whether something is allowed, but whether there is evidence that something is haram in itself or otherwise it becomes a matter of desirability or lack of desirability which is subject to in

01:15:00--> 01:15:39

interpretation subject to circumstances subject to the predominant culture, for example, you cannot give a uniform answer to that question. If you're living in a very conservative and highly closed society, and you start saying that's okay. I think people would be up up in arms, it would create more fitness even then saying fine, if you want to have even separate session. In your case, it's okay, even though permissively is it permissibility is there to meet. If you talk about, for example, the situation of Muslims here in North America, talk about sisters, for example, who, who have been guided to Islam who come from that particular culture, where it's quite perfectly normal

01:15:39--> 01:15:47

for them to interact and talk and express their views. Okay, if they're coming in their hijab, and they're speaking right straight,

01:15:48--> 01:16:28

and so long as there is a reasonable, you know, sides or separation, so that you don't just sit by a woman and get too much close body contact. This there is no evidence that I know of that say that this could not be done. But an overall rule, of course, should be kept in mind. But that's relative and situation, to avoid fitna to avoid undue you know, attacks, for example, if people are missing, not instantly halaqa. But just to spend the night every night group of men and women come in circle watching and looking at each other, laughing and joking, just having a good time. And that happens night after night, obviously shaitan would find it, you know, a role to play in that if they're

01:16:28--> 01:17:04

sitting like we have here and that I would prefer better this way. Actually, of course, if you have a smaller number, you can tell it because if you have like six people might be three here and three here, it might be more or less, in a form of a circle. If the sister or an aunt or brother feel more comfortable. This is the concert in the back. But back doesn't mean backseat. That's the knock notion in the West here that anybody in the back backseat, Well, how about men, some men are also in the back, or they're in the backseat because of gender, just a sort of arrangement that would keep in mind basic objectives of Sharia. But the situation also. So I don't want to give just a uniform

01:17:05--> 01:17:06

answer to that situation.

01:17:08--> 01:17:10

Let's take question from the floor we have another

01:17:25--> 01:17:40

question basically, is that why is it that oftentimes some of that hobbies that has been misinterpreted to give women a lower position and think that the Prophet said that why it has always been interpreted to their disadvantage.

01:17:41--> 01:17:48

You see, after the early period after the Prophet sallallahu, wasallam, and the earliest Harbor, who seem to have been much closer

01:17:49--> 01:17:57

in their practice, to normative and correct Islam, it seems that a number of things happened.

01:17:58--> 01:18:06

One is that in some Muslim communities, they started drifting back a little bit to the pre Islamic customs.

01:18:07--> 01:18:17

But that's was gradual, and sometimes not very much noticeable. I'll give you an example. Take the case of the psychology of Mr. Milan, and his struggle with himself.

01:18:18--> 01:18:23

Farmer by his nature, was like his son, I should say his son was like King

01:18:24--> 01:18:26

Abdullah, very strict.

01:18:27--> 01:18:34

Okay, that was a product of the highly paternalistic Jehovah society in which he was raised.

01:18:36--> 01:18:43

And that's why it was reported that Mr. Nadella and did not like his wife to go to the message. He hated that his way of go to the message.

01:18:44--> 01:18:49

But because of his sincerity and commitment, psychologically, he was able to overcome that.

01:18:51--> 01:18:56

To the point that it said one of his other sons, not Abdullah once told him, I will not let my wife go to the mosque.

01:18:58--> 01:19:13

He said, The professor send them said, let them know, don't prevent the female servants of Allah going to the mosque of Allah. And his son said, let them know when but we will forbid them. He said, then the Prophet said, You allow them and you say we fought with them. And he said he never talked to him until he died,

01:19:14--> 01:19:21

rebuked him very strongly for that. What does it show? It shows that in spite of his own preference, not to let his wife go,

01:19:22--> 01:20:00

he was so sincere, and so upright in following Islam that to say I don't like it, but I do it. I don't like my wife to go, but I cannot prevent her and she goes, and one time he was arguing with his wife, then he said, Are you then preventive? He said, No. You have to backup the tough armor when it comes to the text of the Quran and Sunnah. That takes supremacy. But some people coming after that generation did not have that commitment, and that courage and uprightness, to really resist. So gradually, they started drifting into the paternalistic and using paternalistic and especially in meaning here, you know, men are the only ones

01:20:00--> 01:20:39

would call the shots and the society gradually. But I don't have to be too harsh also on that, because the situation of the Muslim community at the time, with the expansion of Islam and the great effort and test before the Muslim Ummah, automatically made women themselves prefer to be supporters to play the complimentary role of supporters of men who used to go to Jihad and do this, and that, and they chose that they were happy with it, some people misinterpret that to mean that women should have a marginal role in society. So I think there are a number of factors that seem to be responsible for that. And of course, the ultimate has been in our recent generations, where people

01:20:39--> 01:20:44

have been throwing all kinds of erroneous things, even fabricated how these

01:20:45--> 01:20:48

people quote, fabricated how these don't teach women,

01:20:49--> 01:21:29

teach women and the Prophet says seeking knowledge is mandatory. They say, lots of skin Oh, honey, don't let them live in apartments, like higher places, so that they don't fled from the window, for example, whereas the Quran says eschewed ohana and hydro second, let them do it where you are living, does that mean all men has to live in the basements also, I mean, this is. So the ultimate really seem to be in letter generation with the backwardness of the Muslim Ummah, of both men and women. It resulted in all of these superstitious ideas. But unfortunately, like I say, again, some scholar raised in this community, and this is human, I'm not criticizing This is human, have been so

01:21:29--> 01:21:42

much influenced by this culture that in their interpretation, even with all artists, tendencies and attitudes, they could see things more in the strictest sense in the same way that Abdullayev nama was different from if not this

01:21:43--> 01:22:27

was like a low head. Let me take a question from the floor. And from what I have here. What is the Islamic point of view on someone working with non Muslims, especially women in Hollywood? And I can join to it the question of attending Christmas party at work. I can't understand why should men be forced to work with a woman in Hollywood, if both physician are doing an operation, they would be nurses around. If a person is working in a company and a woman happened to be his secretary or he as her secretary, whatever the roles are changing and society so fast, would they could be arrangement also where the door can be left open, so that people are passing by? And so I don't see really what

01:22:27--> 01:23:06

is that necessity where men and woman has to be behind closed doors during work unless the person doesn't really define what he or she means by halwa? Or privacy? If men and women are working together as a team, in the medical or other professions, it does not necessarily mean it's only when there is close. But I must say, Yeah, I know, some people might say how about if you're a physician, and you're examining patients of the other gender, it has to be private, mind you, for your own benefit. If you're a physician, you better have your nurse present with you. And if you don't, you will get accusations of sexual harassment, whether right or wrong. So even from the pragmatic

01:23:06--> 01:23:17

standpoint, don't be alone with him. And even though the professor said and perhaps it was not thinking about sexual harassment, when he thought that but that handle is a side benefit of following her This

01:23:18--> 01:23:23

is that there is a brother here, I know exactly. Who are the brothers? Yes.

01:23:27--> 01:23:31

Isha was a scholar, and Abu Musab ashari.

01:23:32--> 01:23:40

a companion of the process. And I'm used to say that when we I II, the scholars differ in something. We went to Asia, and we always found that you had knowledge.

01:23:42--> 01:24:14

They have been Yes, there have been several in history, but sometimes, unfortunately, again, those who write Islamic history do not seem to pay enough attention to that, you know, yeah, Shahada, for example, say that in one particular match. Have you found that there are dozens of famous women's scholar? But unfortunately, you don't find too much literature around. You talked about earlier. And could you elaborate on why she's not supposed to leave her house, and how the situation would apply here in the United States.

01:24:15--> 01:24:24

There are two types of right there. The first, the woman whose husband died, which is four months and 10 days. And the idea behind that

01:24:25--> 01:24:35

is not only just to stay at home, but to avoid adornment also in respect of the memory of her deceased husband and any decent woman perhaps would feel the same way and also in respect

01:24:36--> 01:25:00

to the feeling of the family of the deceased. Secondly, there is the death of divorce, that divorced women, especially in rajouri divorce, that's when it is revocable should stay in the house of her husband, and there is a very good wisdom behind it. It's not to confine her, but to allow the possibility of reconciliation.

01:25:00--> 01:25:08

Because during that period, everything is permissible except, you know, enter a relationship, intimate relationship. But if the wife is away from her husband

01:25:10--> 01:25:38

during that conflict or period, then it is like Egyptians, they say, embedded in bed, the one who is away from the eyes away from the heart, but forcing him to have heart in His sight. And him and her sight might evoke those hidden emotions and love that has been marred by the conflict and maybe they might get together. And that's why in Sharia, they get together back.

01:25:39--> 01:26:01

During the waiting period, there is no need for Mahara even though it's counted as one divorce. So there is wisdom for that. But in the case of both types of it, there's the could be exceptions. Also, we have already narrated the case of that woman who went out to collect the fruits, which mean that she can go out for legitimate needs. In the context of North America here, for example,

01:26:02--> 01:26:15

if before her husband divorced her, she used to go to work, then there's nothing new really, if she goes out for work, the idea is not to just leave the house and go through her father's house or something should be still close to her husband.

01:26:16--> 01:26:33

In the case of widows, even the same kind of thing could be applicable if there is need to go out to buy things to to continue her work so that she doesn't lose her job, then of course, that could be regarded as an acceptable exception as we have seen with the behavior of the privatizing

01:26:34--> 01:26:35

Water

01:26:47--> 01:26:47

District.

01:26:49--> 01:26:57

And this seems to me like the correct interpretation, something in between. So not knowing

01:26:59--> 01:27:01

which one's safer.

01:27:03--> 01:27:04

But first of all,

01:27:06--> 01:27:13

the concept of metal waves sometimes it sounds logical to say alright, there's those who go this go that let's take the metal

01:27:15--> 01:27:40

and some even refer to the Quran waka Delica Jana Come on metal was written we made you many people translated as a method nation halfway midway avoiding extreme. This is only correct to some degree. Because linguistically speaking, what certain metal does not necessarily mean in the middle between two poles, because it depends what kind of extremes what is the midway between drinking wine or beer.

01:27:42--> 01:27:44

Bloody Mary? anyway.

01:27:48--> 01:27:59

So what Southern actually mean best and best from the standpoint of Sharia, most appropriate for achieving the objectives of Sharia and benefit of people.

01:28:00--> 01:28:03

So, for example, take an issue like what we have tonight here.

01:28:04--> 01:28:14

Some scholars say women should be in a separate room, unseen by men, they shouldn't see men with a closed circuit TV says you have the technology to do that already.

01:28:16--> 01:28:44

Okay. Others would say they can't sit. There's no problem. The question here is not to find some other way. What's the other way? What is the middle way in that case, not there is no middle way here. There is better way more suitable for our setting here in North America. So even though it may sound like the other lenient interpretation, it is the best for this circumstances. If there is need to be strict when there is some specific situation

01:28:45--> 01:29:19

where some degree of additional restriction could be added temporarily. For a given situation, I'm not saying general pattern, then even though it sounds the other extreme could be what's the time would be the best for that particular situation. That's one thing Secondly, you said also what this is about the middle way. The other one also about safer as jakara he puts it, he said if we take Sherry are always as taking the safer in this sticking the surfer a lot what he said the whole practice of DNS will become much much hotter yet.

01:29:20--> 01:30:00

The combination of a what is or combination of being safer, safe, safer, safer, safer, because safer in that case, obviously, and invariably, the safest would be the strictest, which means forget about any other opinion. Because always the safest is the strictest and that's why as Dr. pelota once put it, is it true is not to say haram said anyone learned or unlearned can say Haram. At least you're safe. You know, even if there are two opinions and you say I'll take the strict because I'm safe anyone can say that. But he's the only a good scholar who understand the objectives of Sharia and the Muslim of the oma is the one who would not say that.

01:30:00--> 01:30:10

head on his head of course, but who would you know be very careful about using the term haram or give also concessions that would serve the Muslim or needs of the oma.

01:30:13--> 01:30:18

I'll get to your shala for a woman what is the dress requirement in front of Omaha

01:30:19--> 01:30:26

that has not to my knowledge been specified as clearly as we find in hobbyists, for example, with respect to my harems

01:30:27--> 01:30:47

with the sector non Muslims. But of course, as I say, it varies also with the degree. First of all, there is a basic decency even women among women, of how much she shows of her body. That's why it's recommended even if women go together swimming, for example, it would be preferable to have let's say, one piece instead of two piece, even among women.

01:30:48--> 01:30:51

There is a difference between a maharam for example, like

01:30:52--> 01:30:53

a father,

01:30:54--> 01:31:01

and sun, that the woman is living constantly within the household, and where the closeness of relationship

01:31:03--> 01:31:41

blood relationship with remove any, you know, notion of sexual element in that relationship, in which case she can feel a little bit more relaxed. But when an uncle comes, for example, instead, you know, but maybe some additional reservation. So I'm not proposing here to impose or suggest any particular thing, but to apply good judgment and the sense of higher also should be applicable relaxation, that it should not be the same like Mahara non matamoras should be constricted life, and also some degree of higher and decency. So each woman can see what is comfortable to her with her pure Islamic nature.

01:31:51--> 01:31:56

over the age of six or seven, he will be consulted

01:31:57--> 01:31:57

to be

01:31:58--> 01:31:59

any evidence from the

01:32:02--> 01:32:04

scholarship.

01:32:05--> 01:32:20

Okay, I would like to refer you if you want some more details on that to the excellent work, which was originally a doctoral dissertation by Dr. Mahmoud Abdul rtra climatological family structure in Islam in which he called the various schools of thought on on that particular issue.

01:32:23--> 01:32:26

There's a reference that you can consult perhaps

01:32:28--> 01:32:37

should burn by the age of six or seven. So the age of six or seven is not based on text of Hadees. But of course, based on the estimate of the time when the child needs the care of

01:32:43--> 01:32:45

the child who is with his mother

01:32:46--> 01:32:46

and his mother,

01:32:48--> 01:32:48

to him,

01:32:50--> 01:32:55

preventing the Father who is really in custody at The Guardian.

01:32:58--> 01:33:21

And not necessarily feeling in this country where there is very limited access when they say by the hour the policies in but in the static perspective with the other is very involved in that breathing of his child, the bond the relationship, in spite of the unfortunate situation of divorce would be quite strong, according to a ruling and all the problems scholars I didn't find any

01:33:37--> 01:33:38

quoting scholars

01:33:39--> 01:33:43

say it's Sabbath, I believe mentioned something about that as well. So

01:33:46--> 01:33:49

well, inshallah we can double check on that. But I distinctly remember reading

01:33:52--> 01:34:05

the question here, a husband who gives a gift to his wife of a certain value, and he mentioned it to some people. And then in the case of a divorce later, after the divorce, he asked for that gift back.

01:34:07--> 01:34:23

For the men, what what should the wife do if it is a gift, then as the professor seldom likened it, he said, it's a very terrible description, you know, he said, the person who go goes back on his gift is like one who goes back on his vomit.

01:34:27--> 01:34:54

There is no entitlement for financial compensation, except in the case of cola divestiture, because the way it is initiating divorce without any fault on the part of the husband, in which case you should be compensated because if he paid something Mahara or otherwise, with the intent of permanent relationship, then there is no fault on his part. She's the one who initiated divorce. There is no infraction on his part, then he should return back his property.

01:35:03--> 01:35:04

To say that

01:35:06--> 01:35:10

she knows that she is pregnant with her husband design. Yes, she was

01:35:11--> 01:35:13

pregnant. Yeah.

01:35:18--> 01:35:33

That's true. That's one of the hecklers also of not allowing her to marry. It's not to construct her life. But if there is a pregnancy, then the lineage of the child would be distinctive. Does that mean whether in the case of death or or divorce? Yeah, does that?

01:35:34--> 01:35:39

Does that I will take five more questions. And here is

01:35:41--> 01:35:54

the balance between the brothers and most of the sisters, I think that are coming with the with paper, because that's what I got here. But if you'd like to ask a question, please feel free. No question. Yes.

01:36:03--> 01:36:31

Can you the question is about the husband who objects or does not allow his wife to go to hatch? How can she go without? The question of traveling without Muharram, of course, is an issue with the element of different the interpretation that is adopted by the civilian government, I refer to the government specifically because they are the ones who give the visa are quite strict in that respect, but there are many scholars also say that traveling in a safe company

01:36:32--> 01:36:44

is also possible. So if there is like a group and there is protection afforded for the people going, even if the person is not a man with heart, like a group, then it should be alright.

01:36:46--> 01:37:28

What is the Islamic outlook on taking off your job in front of a non Muslim woman? There are two opinions and that one says the stricter one says that the hour for a Muslim woman before a non Muslim is like her hour before, amen. Which means according to that interpretation, that if a Muslim woman, for example, have a non Muslim servant and her household, she cannot move from the bedroom to the washroom without putting her hijab from head to toe. According to that interpretation. The basis of that interpretation, is that the area in the Quran that excluded certain categories from observing hijab it says, I only say to him that or they're women, and they say the address here to

01:37:28--> 01:38:13

Muslim women, and they say a hint. Are there women here means they they're Muslim women does not refer to non Muslim women. Others take it to say no, if you look at the categories that are excluded, in fact, they are the ones that a person would not look at sexually, like sister, mother, daughter and so on. And say that even though it appears as insane as if it's only to Muslim women, it means women in period does not necessarily mean Muslim or non Muslim women. And that I think, is the one I'm more inclined to be one I'm more inclined to because it is consistent with the use of Sharia. And there is no fitna if a non Muslim woman sees her hair or her arm, there is no difficulty

01:38:13--> 01:38:17

with that. So they're both used but I'm more inclined to the second one. Yes.

01:38:23--> 01:38:25

Are you friendly? Help me understand

01:38:28--> 01:38:35

Okay, I'll give you a brief answer because Have you have you had access so they book the agenda equity in Islam?

01:38:37--> 01:39:18

Okay, okay. But of course, he didn't have a chance to read it because there are some more detailed answer to that. But in brief, I must say here that Kawa, Muna come from karma attache stood up or standing up for responsibility, a proper translation would be like caretakers. Use of translation is the closest better than many who would say like in charge, which is a poor translation, especially the connotative meaning that goes with it, but they use as mminton as they call it, what supporters maintainers which mean in essence, the function of providing financially for the family, which is in Islamic law, the burden of the husband, even if the wife is richer. Number two is to provide

01:39:18--> 01:39:58

physical protection for the family and nobody object to that. Men, Allah has given certain types of physical stunts that a woman had also said, perhaps, but certain type of physical sin that qualify them to provide protection for the family. Number three, to prove to provide the overall leadership, there is no apology for that no ifs and buts, the overall leadership of the family because any social unit in Islam, especially the family, which is the basis of society must have leadership and we accept that in all institutions. But with the qualification that we mentioned earlier with consultation with mutual respect, but when you get you get to a tie in any voids, even in boards of

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companies, they might

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Take the side of the chairman. If you have equal votes Ford and Ford, they say, Alright, we'll take the side of the chairman and break the tie. Otherwise, the argument would go forever. In the name of Shura.

01:40:11--> 01:40:14

Zack, I'll take three more questions.

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Let me give this one now.

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should parents give more freedom to their sons versus their daughters?

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sons and daughters are to be treated equally, according to Sharia. And sometimes people raise a question about freedom, which isn't the wrong way they say my son goes dating, should my daughter be Allah with no way?

01:40:41--> 01:40:43

But it is no way for both?

01:40:46--> 01:40:46

Yes.

01:40:57--> 01:40:58

Especially

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after marriage.

01:41:06--> 01:41:50

Okay, the question is whether one can keep close friendship with people of the other sex, especially after marriage? You see, brother, the issue really boils down to what is the definition or what is meant by friendship. If it is meant by friendship, of course, the way it's happening in this society, they meet each other slap each other on the back and joke and all of this, you know, business as usual. That, of course, is totally unacceptable if it's meant that the somebody has colleagues at work or thinking, the normal social courtesies Good morning and talking a little bit or, you know, casual, respectable type of interaction and not in privacy. There is no difficulty

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with that, as a as it can see, but it depends how far are you?

01:41:56--> 01:41:57

Sure.

01:42:03--> 01:42:04

You're

01:42:07--> 01:42:08

there a way in

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relationships, where you just wanted to

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communicate,

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it depends again, what is the purpose behind that communication, because even frequent calls on the telephone, you know, it keeps too much intimacy. That is not really and should not be really encouraged, especially if the person already got marriage or as might put him in some trouble in the future time without knowing it, because easily things can, you know, slip. So the best way actually safer in that particular situation would be to be more reserved, not necessarily cutting off our relationship, but to be reserved, because this is a very powerful instinct in the human being, as you know, and shaitan would not let you alone. But if there is casual need for something, there

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should be no permanent if I have to call the secretary from from home and ask her to do me something or, you know, ask one of my colleagues to sit in my place in a committee meeting, because I'm traveling, this kind of interaction is quite legitimate this need for him or her. The last question I have, I have to close it here. With the last question.

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This brother or sister is saying,

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within an Islamic community, what will be the best more Islamic way about having an executive committee and board of directors that is elected on a year to year basis? Or is it a permanent one that would be for life

01:43:45--> 01:43:50

that will govern without being nominated, or with being nominated. So if you could clarify this,

01:43:52--> 01:44:32

sometimes I detect confusion even among some writers, between the ends and means. And this is very similar to the political leadership also, you find some scholar who says no, we should not follow this election system of the west for a limited term, because they were elected for life. All the four colorfabb were elected until their diet or were assassinated or something of that nature. But they fail to understand that there is no text in the Quran or Hadith that say a person could be elected for life. So there is nothing that prevented nothing that requires it. But given the situation of the LA community, this was the practice they did. It does not mean we have to follow

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the exact means. But what we have to do is to follow the spirit of Sharia of consultation. So that is a matter that should be left to the interests and needs of the community and society. My personal opinion but that's an opinion, because I'm talking about means the principle we all accept. Shura not giving too much power to one person or one group of people. This we are not like the Sahaba we're not like we're not abubaker and Omar and Osman people who have been so trusted

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And showed a great deal of sacrifice and a great track record in serving the Muslim Ummah, that people really could not think of a better person until that person died in spite of their shortcomings, but they were the best available. That's not the situation today, most of us are basically more or less on the same level and more or less.

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So in my humble opinion, and this is that perhaps election,

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periodical would be good, because that would give the owner the opportunity to evaluate the performance of previous groups. So if you get people who are sincere, but we're not able to achieve much, then there's a chance of change. If you get people that you thought would be trustworthy, but there's any question not just hearsay, there is really evidence that there is some question of trust, maybe get people are more trustworthy. And even if you feel some people are good, trustworthy and honest and able and capable, but power has gone a little bit into their heads. And they don't want anyone to question them. Maybe perhaps you need to get people are more humble and capable also.

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So it's a matter really of the need, but I believe election would be useful, but

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whether it should be every year, that would be rather unstable and so much change where every two years it's a matter for the community to decide by those can determine also recall, if need be. So it's like I can decide that. I really have to close it here. I'm sorry. This is this was the last question. There are still a lot of excellent questions, which I'm