Debate! Israel’s War on Gaza is Genocide H Tzortzis vs Dr M Humphrys on @TheConversationTVShow
Channel: Hamza Tzortzis
File Size: 57.73MB
Hi, I'm Shaun Murray, and this is the conversation where we take an alternative look at political events and current affairs through an iris lens. And this show we hope to pick, probe, investigate and uncover the stories that you want to hear. We go where mainstream won't go. This week we begin our second series on a very different note, following the Hamas attacks on October 7, and the subsequent is really bombardment of Gaza. The ISRAEL PALESTINE conflict has now witnessed an unprecedented level of violence, with over 1200 Israelis killed on October 7, how do we nine define the unparalleled killing of almost 30,000 Palestinians with over 1100 of those children wanting to
take events on October 7, to once again tree in the wars eyes on a conflict that is often reported without historical context? Here to discuss today's topic is Dr. Mark Humphreys from Ireland Israel Ananse, along with Hamza sources from the SANS Institute, but before we speak to our next guest, let's get a quick overview on this week's topic.
So let's introduce today's guests. Mark Humphries is a lecturer in computing at Dublin City University. He has a Bachelor of Science from University College Dublin, and the PhD in computer science from the University of Cambridge. His research is an artificial intelligence and has a wide range of interests including politics and genealogy. Hamza thoughtseize, is the founder and CEO of the southeast Institute. He is the author of the best selling book, the divine reality, God, Islam and the Mirage via theism and unfeeling tyranny, the genocide in Gaza unfelt, soundless narratives on Palestine. He is currently completing his PhD on theological philosophy. Gentlemen, welcome to
Now to begin proceedings, I'm going to ask you both to give a rough five minute intro, and Hamza, if we can have you started. Thank you. Thank you for having us. So, I'm going to argue for the case that Israel's war on Gaza is genocide. So I'm going to start with Article Two of the Genocide Convention of 1948. It provides the following delineation. In the present convention genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy in whole or in part in national, ethnic, racial or religious group. As such, a killing members of the group B causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group, see, deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life
calculated to bring about its physical destruction, in whole or in part D imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group, ie forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. So let's prove intent. But before we do that, it's very important to unpack something because intent doesn't mean that you have to focus on people's statements. If you look at the UN report that was published in 1992 is called final report on the commission of experts established pursuant to Security Council resolution on page 26 on
To the genocide section, it says, In certain cases, there will be evidence of actions or omissions of such a degree that the defendant may reasonably be assumed to have been aware of the consequences of his or her conduct, which goes to the establishment of intent, but not necessarily motive. So from actions you can infer backwards to intent. We have over 100 genocidal statements from 30 Plus Israeli ministers, politicians and the idea of proper evil people. For example, take the Israeli heritage minister and make a Eliyahu. He said Israel must find ways for Gaza are more painful than death. Take, you have gallant minister of defense, he said Hamas was control of the north of the
strip. We were doing a Gaza Nakba of 2023. For the audience who don't know the Nakba was the expulsion of over 700,000 Palestinians and the massacre and also the destroying of 600. Palestinian villages. He also says have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There'll be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly. Isaac Herzog, another evil person, the president, he says there are no innocent civilians in Gaza. He's bringing the lie that the lines between a competent and a non competent. What about Benjamin Netanyahu, the prime minister, he said, You must remember what emelec has done to use as our Bible.
And this refers to one Samuel 15 Three that says, now go attack the Amalekites and can totally destroy all that belongs to them Do not spare them put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys. This is pure genocide genocidal intent here because it's blurring the boundaries if you like between a competent and a non competent and he's saying kill children. You have cash Minister of Education, I relate to them meaning the Gazans like Amulek, meaning wipe them out. Nissim maturi, Deputy Speaker of the Knesset says the wall will never end if we don't expel them all. IV Ditcher Minister of Agriculture Rural Development This is Gaza is Nakba
2003 In this so there's many more. We also have a Zionist think tank that published the blueprint for Palestinian genocide. This thing tank is called the Institute for National Security and Zionist strategy and it states that it outlines a plan for resettlement and final rehabilitation in Egypt of the entire population of Gaza. The entire population it was written by I'm Ed Weitzman, who leads the libertarian caucus of Israelis, Israel's ruling Likud party. We don't even need this statements. We could look at the war statistics and we can infer backwards just like what the UN report said. When you look at the statistics of your Ahmed, which is Swiss based, it's based in Gaza. You have
Around 30,000 people that have died. Over 11,000 Are children. You have over 56,000 injuries. You have over 100 journalists killed, you have 1.9 million displaced, displaced and the homes have been destroyed. Over 65,000 homes have been destroyed. You have over 300 damage schools, you have 183 damages mosques, damaged churches are three, you have 226 deaths of medical staff, and so on and so forth. Now, what's very interesting is this during the Blitz, okay, the Nazis when they bombed England, it was over a nine month period intensely, but it really technically was over four years. More people have died in Gaza than they died in London during the Blitz, and the Blitz was like
carpet bombing. It wasn't precision strikes. So make that what you will. What about the US war in Afghanistan, the US dropped more than 7000 bombs on Afghanistan in both 2018 and 2019. Israel dropped an estimated 6000 bombs in Gaza in less than a week. Also, even the Americans American US intelligence assessment has says has said that nearly half of the air to ground munitions that Israel has used in Gaza are dumb bombs, meaning they are not guided is just anything goes anything can be destroyed and even President Biden right genocide Joe, he said that Israel has engaged in indiscriminate bombing. And this is pointed by scholars genocide scholars, just eight days after
October the seventh 800 genocide scholars said that what was happening in Gaza was imminent genocide, and I quote, We are compelled to sound the alarm about the possibility of the crime of genocide being perpetrated by Israel Israeli forces against Palestinians in the Gaza Strip and
And finally, you have 48 state crimes scholars and they said the following Israel's declared intentions were again clear and explicitly genocidal. Decades of dispossession, occupation, structure, violence, forced eviction and apartheid discrimination are followed, we are witnessing now. What we're witnessing now is the development of the Israeli states genocide of the indigenous Palestinians. We are seeing a second Nakba. Now, some people may argue that the IDF and Israel warns the innocent civilians that bombs are coming, they usually give only 15 minutes. And when they leave their homes, they bomb their attempts to evacuate this is well known with aerial analysis. And this
is really clear that they just want to annihilate everybody. And at the end of the day, I think whoever supports the Israeli regime, what they're doing right now is immoral, by definition.
Thank you, Hamza. Mark, thanks for having me on. The there's a lot to unpack there, we're gonna we're gonna get through all of those, all of those issues.
I think the use of the word genocide to describe the war in Gaza is is is nonsense. And it's pretty much impossible to define a definition, the word genocide that applies to that word that does not apply to almost every single war in human history. So what I want to do is go back to the intent and just start with the intent and see to where we've come from, because I've been speaking back as for some years and written about Gaza, and I always had an optimism about Gaza, which is that I what I want, and I think I can speak for Israel, Bashar, certainly, what the average person on my side of the fence wants is we are what we did want anyway, until seventh of October,
was for the Gazans to pursue peace was for the Gazans to pursue prosperity and peace. To accept this, whatever dreams they had of conquering Jerusalem or getting back to 1948. We're not going to happen to accept the border was there between Gaza and Israel, to respect the border and make as a wonderful place to be a wonderful place to live, to stop the rocket fire to pursue business?
Possibly even tourism, you know, Gaza could have been a prosperous little resort on the Mediterranean Sea.
Council chose a different route. And what I want to do is I just want to look at the point of the sixth of October, because on the sixth of October, Israel had no plans to do anything like this. Israel had no plans for any kind of war, it had no plans to clear anybody out in northern Gaza, Gaza altogether. What Israel wanted was for Gazans to stop to accept that it was an imperfect world except this border, and stop the conflict on the border. The West Bank is another problem, you know that that's there's no obvious border, here's the main problem on the West Bank, but there's an obvious border in Gaza. So there could have been peace, there was an imperfect world there in the
sixth of October.
So it was just another day of deterrence, the seventh of October, as far as Israel is concerned, it knew that
the garrison regime that Hamas, were, you know, basically genocidal racist to would kill every Jew if they could, Bush, it didn't seem that they could ever get that kind of par, that they were deterred. They were contained within Gaza. And Dutch, you know, there'd be these rounds of war warfare. And, you know, and then they'd be deterred again for another year or two from another round a rocket far. So despite the presence of these
genocidal racists who wanted to kill all Israelis, Israel was reasonably relaxed, it was another year of deterrence, that will deter these people. So what happened on the seventh of October was that entire worlds ended and I don't think people really understand what has actually happened. Okay, it doesn't really matter what I say doesn't matter what any of us say. You have to understand what's changed in Israel, which is that deterrence is gone. Nobody believes in deterrence anymore. Since the seventh of October. No, nobody believes that Hamas can exist there anymore, and can be deterred, and people can live near the border and be safe. What Hummers said to Israel clearer than
I think any group has ever said to any other group in the history of the world are certainly right up there is if you want to live you have to exterminate us a mass as some as as as a group, if you want to live if you want to have any life for your children, you have to exterminate us. That's what Hamas said to Israel. So that's what Israel is doing now. Israel does not want to exterminate
Ah, the entire Gaussian people are the Palestinian people across the West Bank.
But Israel has declared that it is going to wipe Hamas off the map. And independent of what you are I think about this. This is I think, I think it's clear now, after a few months, this is what's gonna happen, this war is going to carry on all through 2024 Until Hamas unconditionally surrenders. And that's actually the only way this ends. So
there is no way that any kind of international course judgments, any kind of expelling of ambassadors, any kind of trade sanctions will make any difference. The only thing that will make any difference is Hamas surrendering and releasing the hostages. There's no way Israel is going to abandon those hostages. So I think it's a terrible I'm not saying this is good. Right. This is war is appalling. Right, all the innocence and and I've no damage, though I deny its genocide. Absolutely. I have no doubt of the many, many innocents that have that have been killed that have been injured, that have been that have lost their homes, through no fault of their own. War is
horrible. What happened to the Israelis was obviously horrible.
This is not my plan. And my plan was Gazans give up you know, and I even said this in a talk that Gazans abandoned the struggle, which is a kind of
language that someone engaged in the struggle does not want to hear. Why don't you just abandon the struggle and pursue pursue peace and prosperity because you could have a nice life if you just abandoned your dreams abandoned, abandoned your struggle, and pursued other dreams? So for me, that's what Carlson should have done. It's an absolute tragedy, what's happened to Israel, and in particular, to Gaza, Hamas have destroyed everything. And I think independent of what we think about it, this is going to run the only the only thing I think that the only I hate to provide any hope, really, I used to provide hope. I said it's so easy in Gaza, West Bank is hard, because there's no
border, Gaza was easy because there was a border. And the border, of course, only was defined in 2005. But you know, when all the Jewish settlers were expelled, but there was a border. So guys, that was easy to solve. And I had optimism, you could just you could just proceed. I used to say this is a line that drove people at beta Richard Boyd bearish, he just sneered at this slide. I said and do that. Two years ago. I said, Why don't cows and just pursue peace and shopping, peace, work shopping life, and he just stared at that he he regarded it as self evidently obvious that Gazans had to pursue the struggle. Now pursuing the struggle has led to this unbelievable disaster. And I
don't think it's I this is this is not my dream for Gazans at all. So I know that debaters have age, genocide, and I want to talk about a bunch of related topics. So but I wanted to start with the idea that none of this was Israel's idea. From the word go.
I will I do plan to talk about what Hamza said You know, we will get into debating Nash, whether the military campaign is a genocide. But I just wanted to start by saying that none of this was was a plan either by either from me or from Israel on the sixth of October. Okay, I'll just pick it up on on point. Peace sharping lathe, yes. What have you just said, I don't believe he's an Irishman. I mean, we need to do a DNA test or we need to check his passport or I heard his wife is not Irish. Maybe she's infected him in some way. She English you believe in struggle? No, I believe that, that that you should have morality and what's very interesting. Let me ask you a question. Seventh of
October. Why why why are you racist? Let me know. Let me ask you a question. Because let's keep it civil markable No, no, no, let me let me let me let me know in civil I'm not being angry. I'm just, you are a classic atheist. Let me tell you why. Sorry, classic racist. And your classic atheist as well as Freudian slip, Freudian slip, but he's an atheist. Racist, of course. So but why are you racist? Because you're talking about October the sixth? Where is your condemnation of the equivalent five October the seventh that were inflicted on the Palestinians from 2008 to 2020? Where is your condemnation of that? You talk about October the sixth as if everything was rosy and peaceful.
Israel has an apartheid system around 65 laws, no more than no less than 65 laws that discriminate against Arab Israelis and the Palestinians. You have illegal occupation? You have killing? No. Let's talk about Gaza and the whole of Israel because this is about Israel's disgraceful Zionism. You're not saying nothing about what happened.
Before October the seventh with regards to its reality, where is your condemnation of the equivalent of five? October the seventh since 2008? Where's your condemnation? Why the more asymmetry? Is it because you're racist? Well, no, that's kind of reduced or ignorant or ignorant or
it's either you're either racist or ignorant. Okay, let me pitch disappointed in you because that's fine. I told you, I don't mind. I taught you a more civil debate. This is civil. I'm being I'm being this an intellectual position that was really, you're either ignorant or you're racist. Let Mark make his point, though, please. No, no. And well, he was actually has been a lot more civilized than some of the online things I've seen him in. So anyway, let's, let's cool it down a minute. First of all, it's a bit of a step to say that, if I don't take your view of the Israeli conflict from 1948, to 2023, that I'm a racist. I may didn't say that, well, I may take a different view to watch the
way up and in the conflict. So So you said where is your condemnation of all the October the seventh, etc. Now, the point is, the conflict is very, very big. We all agree on that there's, there's a huge amount of reach, there's a huge amount to think about to learn about.
I mean, even starting in 1947, you could argue is is talking too late. But you know, should we talk about the Hebron massacre? Or should we, you know, should we go further back? But there's an enormous amount to read and think and consider similar to, to perhaps most conflicts in the world. The current flare up obviously, starts on October the seventh, but it's obviously perish of a 75 year conflict. Now, my point about October the sixth is, on October the sixth, especially in Gaza.
There are there is still the chance of a bachelor life, that chance is gone there. So you're not going to condemn a better
answer. On October the sixth,
there is a chance of a better life, Israel still exists. The West Bank problems aren't solved. So I'm asking the Gazans to park that park their West Bank, the problems with the West Bank brothers, if you like and take a look at Gaza, right. There's no occupation the Jews have been have been gone for Gaza is occupied by international for 18 years. This is wrong. Hold on. Hold on, James. We're all kicked out. In 2005. They're gone from Gaza for 18 years. And they're the Israel
is maintaining some control, obviously over the borders. Because October the seventh show, then their food aisle on October the seventh showed why
Israel was maintaining a hard border with Gaza. However 10s of 1000s of Gazans not quite sure the number is 30,000 Gazans had work permits to come into Israel. They were Vashisht that they weren't terrorists. They weren't a mess. They had worked permits to come in to to Israel to work, and then come into Israel and work and go back to Gaza. Right. That's all gone now. Gazans, the wealthier Gazans will not answer my question is a red herring. I'm talking about the sixth of October, the wealthier Gazans would go on holiday to Dubai to Turkey and come back to Gaza wasn't a prison or you question how long your question is? Why could they not? You know that your question is it's
impossible for them to accept the world of 16 October. No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying you're talking about October you're framing it's a miss framing your framing October the sixth, I think as if everything is fine. But from at least 2008 onwards, there have been equivalent of five October the sevens. And you said nothing about that. So I'm in a morally and epistemic, justified, justified position to say that you're either ignorant or racist because you have a moral asymmetry. It's a moral asymmetry. Children have died. Innocent people have been killed, equivalent to five October the seventh since 2008. And this omission, which is a typical zoning strategy, by the way,
you haven't figured it out, because you're not addressing it. No, the point is, but let's go back to the normal point. The question is about genocide. We talked about the definition of genocide, we have shown intent. So what you're going to say about the genocidal language of the Prime Minister of the President of key members of the ruling party of think tanks that influence the ruling party, genocidal statements I get let me give you a thought experiment. If genocide Joe Joe Biden, if any politician in the West said those statements, the whole world will be on fire. But the minute your Zinus friends have said something, oh, you know, let's it's poetry or let's do some metaphorical
says, I find it immoral that you can't even talk about these explicit genocidal statements.
I don't make those kinds of genocidal statements are statements that could pertain but you support you support an entity that does as genocide or you support a genocide or entity. I don't like the outrageous statements like talking about the Amalekites in the end is outrageous or genocide, which one is outrageous is like, maybe quoting someone racist. But to say genocide is a different issue, right? Is it outrageous? Or is it genocidal? Look, here's the thing. Is it a genocidal statement to you? I think some of those statements are So the intent is there. No, some Hold on. Some of those statements are in terms of rhetoric are, you know, do to do But doesn't the so called rhetoric, it
isn't not backed up by what's been happening on the ground? That's my point. Right. So my point is that after the most traumatic event, I mean, I presume you will agree, right, let's let's see, if you'll agree with one they, I presume you'll agree that October the seventh was the most traumatic event.
Not just for Israel, but for Jews since Adolf Hitler since the Holocaust. Well, I am under no moral or epistemic obligation to believe Zionist because I have a list of 10 lies backed by academics from the Zionist entity. I'm a moral human being I'm an intellectual, a PhD student. Let me finish just talk to you. I'm monitoring.
Well, the impact could be because of propaganda. The point I'm trying to say is this. The moral agents are under no moral or epistemic obligation to believe known liars.
And the non liars, the false flag in Egypt, pretending to blame it on the one. The Muslim Brotherhood, you had Zionists who had Irish passports that killed someone in in debates, Imani was a master. Yeah, whatever, whoever is a human being at the end of the day, but the point I'm trying to say is you're saying Mossad has no right to kill him. So no, I'm saying to you that they're known liars. There are known liars. Okay.
40 beheaded babies. Okay. Namie, one of the babies that were beheaded one, just one. Well, there are some children were named me one beheaded baby some women and children were behind Namie one baby maybe then maybe not for she that was one. That was one miss reporting. Oh, Miss reporting. He wasn't propaganda or lies or anything. There was a lot of there was a lot of what about the IDF? Who said that? Basically, it was our own people that killed some of them.
Fairies, for a second so
themselves, Mark just made a statement. And it just just the address marks point.
Do you see Mark it honest? Do you see the impact that it's had on Jews? Of course they do. I look, I consider myself and Pathik. That the impact it has had, of course is going to be traumatic. If that's how they perceive things. I'm not denying the impact, whether it's propaganda or not. So I do empathize from that perspective. But at the end of the day, I already said there's been five equivalent in October the seventh since 2008. From a numbers perspective from killing innocent human beings from killing Palestinians. Why the more asymmetry? Why do you believe Israeli blood is more worth is worth more than Palestinian blood? Because you haven't even you're not even bothered to
address that you do not even bother to address that reality. There are five equivalent October the summons inflicted on the Palestinians before October, you're talking now, first of all, you're just just be honest, you don't care about Palestinian. Firstly, I just care you don't care what I want for Palestinian, you're racist or ignorant when
you want them to be impressed. And you want them to respond to the oppression in the way that you want? No, no, I've been. I've been clear my whole life. What I want for Palestinians, is I want them to live in peace and prosperity. And for me, hold on for me illegal occupation. Hold on, for me the things that the fundamental thing that is stopping Palestinians, and has been stopping them since before they were called Palestinians, which
they named emerged in the 60s. That's not true. Okay, well, anyway, what the the thing that is stopping Palestinians from living in peace and prosperity is their own ideas, the ideas that are in their heads now, that makes this potentially, you know, their opinions, the whole of the Palestinians, you know, all of the idea. Yeah, let me let me let me just try and make the point, which is in some conflicts in the world.
You just have to face you have to keep up the struggle, you have no chance at all. You're being brutalized by some neighbouring dictator.
The struggle is, you know, perhaps decimating your country, but if you give up the struggle, you'll just be decimated.
even more by that by the dictator, whatever. There were there are many perhaps most wars in history are like that you just have to fight whoever whoever is up against you. And the Israel war it strike it, I believe, is not a never has been like that the the war between Israel and the Arabs and then Israel and the Palestinians is a war where if the Palestinians modified their ideas, everybody could live in peace and prosperity. And it's harder to say in the West Bank where there's no agreed definition of territory. It was unbelievably easy to see in Gaza from 2005 to 2023. All the Gazans had to do was stop. And they had a solution. It was right there waiting for them for 18 years, but
they wouldn't take it. Instead, they wanted to continue the war. They fired rockets at Israel, which inevitably brought Israel back to
to attack the mass to do aerial bombing, because sending in troops on the ground means dead Israelis. So they did aerial bombing. They did send in troops that I've met, some of the troops will engender on the ground, but they very few went in until 2023 is the cause as well, because, well, that's why they were nappies Hold on, you know, Cam, right. First of all, I'm calm. I said they went up, it's it's, first of all, if they go in on the ground, they die, right? Any troops that go in the ground die, but also combat on the ground is also very dangerous for local civilians. They die as well, too. It just escalates. So how does this actually present a case? Again, you've mentioned some
untruth there. But how does this go against my presentation? Well, we've shown intent, and we've shown the actions that support the intent. There's no intent, there's only 10. Now, they said the ministers people have positions of power, we have over 100 statements, including the IDF a general Okay, the people have significant power, think tanks having genocidal statements and the dumb bombs, around 50% of the bombs are not even laser guided. Right, just to annihilate everything. Okay, well, let me let me
let Mark Just let me say a few things at the core of this, right? I don't agree with statements talking about Amalekites and stuff like that. I understand anger, and Hirsch and fury on the Israeli side. I mean, I can feel it and I'm not Israeli. I can understand that anger, but I don't agree with Amala case type statements or anything like that. So the what you have to look at is what's actually happening, right? So what's actually happening compared to those statements? So for example, when one of the first things that that that then happened was an announcement for civilians to get out of Northern northern Gaza, right and get into southern gas, and then you just bombed when they're
evacuating, you killed them when they evacuate. That's error analysis has proven that go to The Guardian, go to other independent news entities. That's that's not independent. Now. There's there was mostly your independent. None of us perhaps so what have you cited that is even independent? So hold on, hold on, there's like noise independent your argument is forced to hold on it's a moot point right the the the the the evacuation of Northern Gaza was not done so that everyone could get onto the road and then they could all be bombed right? The
because they were bombed so how do you know that hold on they just talk about what happened sorry I gotta play
lacrosse because it's like there were
these wise and maganda Hamza you give Goebbels the run for his mom's up mark. We're gonna run circles here we're gonna mark it was a masked man who were bombed on the road and very few hour mark and I'm gonna cut across you guys guys have to listen to me here you have to listen to me here Just on that point. I mean we've given we've given the figures for which you're mad have given the Swiss monitoring group and they have given the figures of almost 30,000 Palestinians killed they to to go back to that point the bombing of Northern Gaza How can it be said that it was preseasoned bombing when there were that many civilians killed? I just want to I just want to get to the core that the
Do you believe that's just collateral damage or disease just believe that's collateral damage or how do we square that circle? Okay, so Israel says itself the job of destroying the destroying a group that controls all the Gaza essentially Hamas so so it's an unbelievably ambitious job which is never attempted before to take an entire territory and wipe out the the militants terrorist group that's that's in charge of it. Now, the probably every fact I say Hamza is going to challenge but you're providing no citations, no evidence, nothing but it's not
that north and south and
Gaza north and south is practically an armed camp in the sense that the the, there's a tunnel system of several 100 kilometers who presumably agree that exists. The tunnel system is going underneath apartment blocks, it's going underneath masks, they found openings through the tunnels in mosques and schools and in private houses. There was a report there that the IDF said that every single mosque they had searched so far on the ground, and every single school that they had searched on the ground had either weapons are a tunnel underneath it. Now, you may not believe any of this. I certainly believe that's true, because that is the way Hamas would fight is the kind of morality
that is Hamas would believe in the tactics that they would use went up against those tactics wouldn't be of any use against Assad or Putin, right. They wouldn't give it they wouldn't care less. If you're a tunnel is under a mask or a school with classes on insider. Putin doesn't care about that stuff. But they use those tactics because they know they've some chance that those tactics will help against Israel. So it's an incredibly hard job to clear out gas, which is why they've started doing IT sector by sector. They wanted to move the population
down to the south. Now they're dropping leaflets. They've divided the south up into zones there's a guy Mohammed smear, smear smear I think is the name anyway he is one of these Gaza
journalists and he posts the leaflets that are being dropped from the sky now this is a guy who hates Israel but the leaflets and he posts online what leaflets he's got from the sky and the leaflets are saying things like here in this red sector we are going to be there's going to be fighting and bombing in this red sector today move along this road into these green sectors. So no it's not very nice for people who live there to be told so the message from the the enemy from the sky get at your house and you may never see it again move down the road. But why are they doing this is the point if their aim is genocide and show me any army that would do this in the in the history
of the world show me any Muslim or ever did what most Muslims got to do this was the song masters was less Muslim got to do with this now? What would cause what has Muslim got to do with Palestinians or Christians or what has Muslim got to do with it right now? Okay, show me any Palestinian
or Arab show me any Arab army that would drop leaflets from the sky warning people as to WhatsApp today. But this is this is a red herring. This is totally irrelevant, the funny. Okay, so why would the Gazans believe the IDF when the IDF have told them to move and when they've moved? They've been bombed? They haven't been? They have the error analysis has been shown by independent entities. I found the mask No, no, they have women, children, children they buy is a child that hummus fighter what well, is a child a harmless fighter? Well, if you were saying 11,000 Children her must fight us well hold on genocidal language humanizing language our children fighting for Ms. Ah, children,
Hamas fight. And I they are they? are they guilty? If we should they be bombed? Should we kill children? Is that what you believe? If we know nothing other than it's a child, then they're not a mess fighter. If they're under 10 years old, they're not Ms. Fighter, if they're over 10 years old, are over 10 year olds being used by him is because I've seen plenty of evidence that they are as spotters as runners as carriers of ammunition. Basically, that language is basically blurring the boundary between a competent language I'm talking about. So you're basically saying it's okay. Because of that we should kill everybody. Is that what you're saying? Well, if I was saying that,
wouldn't I say? It's rather than? Well, I don't know. You've said a lot of things without any beef rather than you having to say, oh, let's think about your framing. This is very important, the way you're framing it as if there are two state actors that are fighting each other. This is this isn't this actually, it's not symmetrical. There's an asymmetry. When you're talking about Gaza that was left alone in 2005. It's it's still known under international law as an occupied territory. Secondly, they control even the daily calories, academics have coded perverse, degrading and unlivable in many places. So from that perspective, the way you're framing it, you're framing as if
there are two state actors, and there's a war it's not a war. In actual fact, Israel, under international law has no right to defend itself. Why? Because it's already in a has no right. Yet, according to international law, let me explain why after seven can explain why you should do nothing. I'm not saying that listen to what I'm saying is that listen, they should stop the apartheid regime. They stop the illegal settlements that should stop oppressing the Palestinians. They should stop killing children. They should stop
For sitting in prison children, the list goes on and on and on. That's what they should do you want peace, don't be an oppressor, if you're present don't have apartheid, there are 65 wars that discriminate against Arab Israelis and Palestinians were happy with apartheid. We're onto a new topic every time. Are you happy with apartheid? My problem was sounds like my problem with this debate is as a new topic every day, you're not directly answering my questions. That marks me to be able to dig into some topics and go a bit slower. I'm happy to discuss all these topics right away. But a new topic every two seconds is a bit hard to cope. No, I'm just challenging do we need to? We
need to stick with the topic. You're challenging the MIS framing, we need to stick to the topic with which the reasons why you're here. I think we did a step back. So go ahead, Mark.
So So look, D, there's about 100 trucks a day, going into in aid, going into in food answering the question, hold on going into Gaza right now. The the issue sorry if we're back to the issue of genocidal intent. Well, the question is, why are these leaflets been dropped from the sky, not just ash, but phone calls as well. There's been several million text messages, many 1000s of phone calls because they are much more human intensive. There are
accounts from Gazans. One of them was the caretaker of an apartment block. He said, Israelis were on the phone with him for two hours explaining who they were attacking when, why his people had to get out of the apartment back and when it was safe to go back. Now, my point is not that absolutely everything Israel ever does in a war is going to be perfect. And the can be justified, that that wouldn't be true for any war in human history. People make errors and people get enthusiastic people miss identify, and people do commit crimes as well. But my point is that there are too many things that don't fit in with your simple claim that Israel just wants to kill everybody. And we start off
with all the warning. I didn't actually say that.
Is Killing every killing everyone in the territory. No. Well, like, for example, you beat you believe in the Armenian Genocide. Right? You believe that the Ottomans committed Armenian Genocide? Is that true? Yeah, sure. Okay. But I don't think we should talk about that. I'm not saying that. No, but I want to show you maybe inconsistent principles here because there is no proof of intent for genocide there yet. You believe it's a genocide, also, that the other Armenians towards the east, untouched. So a genocide doesn't mean even according to your own perspective, the risk of discussing if they dragged them out into the desert, you bite your meat, you're missing the point,
though. Yeah. But they want to drive the Gazans and they'll be starving the gods showing, I'm showing the inconsistency. Because it's related to the points about genocide, you believe in a genocide but you can't prove intent of a genocide. You know, Garrison's? Are some of the most obese people in the Middle East. You're not listening to what I'm saying. But they don't love being starved. Listen to me, you know, diminishing coloringstar, none of you have an obesity No, I'm saying that there is controlled, there is controlled.
There's control of the food, the water and the electricity. That is an independent entity entity. That's my point. And yes, they were stopped during this campaign, whether obese or not, is a red herring. The point is you have an entity, the Gaza Strip, that, that the Israelis have full control over the water, the electricity and the food to the degree that they said there can be only this many calories per day, according to academics. So my point here is how is how is that now a an independent state? And your framing of that there is like, you know, a symmetrical war going on? Well, how come and that's my point. So my point is, I can be for 2023 of Israel, it was so evil.
They were providing electricity and water to Gaza. How come? Well, yeah, if they're so evil, but they're controlling it. But if they're so evil, why didn't they just cut it off? Before 2023? Wait, hold on a second. So provides. So why, yes, you but if Gaza had its own, and that just proves my point. So you've actually proved my point, which is Gaza doesn't have control?
Is those providing water electricity? God doesn't have control of gases? I can the freshmen don't have control. Again, I said before, gas would be for 2023. Of course it didn't have full control of its own territory. I never claimed it did. But I claimed that there was a route for them to peace, prosperity, for example, Israel.
It they weren't talking about international law, Gaza is considered an occupied entity, even post 2500 on Israel. Do you believe in international law, just not a new topic? You've lost on your topic? You're making a statement that's making things up. As I say harms
It's a new topic every two seconds we really wish they are related but we'd be let's just spend a bit of time on a topic. And then
before 2023, Israel was providing electricity say to to Gaza,
Hamas fired rockets are the power station that was providing electricity to Gaza. Right? Can anyone explain? I mean, obviously, I can explain that because I understand what Hamas is and what they do. That's why I understand how they fight. I think Israelis understand what a mess is, too. And they understand that it's why they're using 10 year olds and 12 year olds to run around as spotters. There was an example there recently, where just last week, where kids on bikes about age 13 emerged in the middle of an apparent combat zone in Gaza, a very dangerous place that all civilians had been born repeatedly to get out of. You know, there's the kind of situation in which those hostages got
shot by accident because it's lethally dangerous those, those combat and all of a sudden, there's these kids on bikes. And the the IDF Patrol said, Get out of here, get out of here, he's not safe, get out, you know, go go go down the road, you know, go 10 blocks down the road. It's not a fairy, you know, anyway, the kids went back into some building or whatever. And the next thing that patrol was hit with, I think it was RPG far, and two IDF soldiers were killed in that engagement. And they were killed because they would not kill the reconnaissance guys, who were the three kids. Right. Now, you may say, and I may say that, that's great that they didn't kill those kids, because they
just found them. Now. They're cute, cute kids all the time. But those kids were the reconnaissance guys in that situation. So they gave their lives not to kill those kids. Yeah. Now, if that's true, it's an exception, because around 123, around 123 children were killed. Recently, they were just shot in the back. Hold on. What I'm saying is that fighting an enemy like commerce is unbelievably difficult. No, but you're framing it. Okay. Let me explain why this framing is all wrong. Number one, I said, I want to justify the Prime Minister mentioned earlier, this is international law, according to various interpretations of international law, Israel is already in an aggressive
position, because it's an illegal occupier. And by virtue of that they have no right. The idea I have a right to defend myself is well, you're already in aggressive stance. Right? So therefore, they're not in an aggressive posture. So and from that perspective, legally, they have no right now, you could talk about the moral question, that's fine. But legally, they don't have any right to defend themselves, because they're an illegal occupier. And you're just framing as you're just Hamas, not withstanding Hamas and Islamic Jihad. They're prescribed terrorist groups. According to United Kingdom, there are other factions within the resistance that I legal, and they're using the
international right according to according to the Geneva Convention and international law to actually resist an occupying force, they're actually allowed to resist an occupying force. So my point is the way you might universe. So knowing your universe, international law. Yeah, look.
Yeah. What is the international law? Are you allowed to resist an occupying force here? Here's here's a question. It kind of says they're occupied it where it is occupied? No, no, in occupied according to international law, even our because Because Israel had control of resources that will be occupied there for decades. Listen, this is rhetoric, listeners, according according to international law, even even notwithstanding the fact that the Israeli settlers left illegal settlers may add, because Israel had control of the population to it to a degree, electricity, water, and so on and so forth. It's still considered as an Occupy force according to international
law. So you can't say it's not occupied because it's still considered occupied. This is why there is a resistance movement. This is why there are valid legal factions resistance movement. There. Of course there is it's not just Hamas and Islamic Jihad. There are other factions now that tried to resist the Occupy issues since 2005. Are all self inflicted? What Garrison's could have done was they could have chosen a different path after 2005 They could have said, well, our brothers in the West Bank can deal with their own lives. We're going to pursue our life here. There's a border and that's the next day occupied right? This is the alternate okay, they got rid of the Jews. I don't
believe you're you're Irish. Honestly. They need to take a break. Check your case on that. Just want to take a break.
You're still tuned into the conversation, your weekly alternative proba political events, and choreographers around Ireland. I'm joined by our special guests. Dr. Mark Humphreys from Ireland Israel Alliance, along with Hamza tootsies from the Serbian Institute.
Okay, guys, so in all that's been said, and to conclude, how do we see how do we nicey and when we asked you for smart, how do we nice see the two state solution and how do we move forward?
I think the two state solution is dead as a dodo at the moment.
I say at the moment the dodo is not coming back, but dead as a dodo probably for the next couple of decades. It was already in severe trouble. In in
the Second Intifada, I think the Second Intifada really killed off the idea. The idea of a two state solution is that some border could be agreed that Israel would exist and some Palestinian state would exist. And that by doing that, by defining borders, there would be less war, not more war. Now, Israelis,
fundamentally now believe that any such border no matter what it was, would lead to more war would lead to horrific war. So let's say some deal was agreed and some Israeli government is stupid enough to sign up
for some border on the West Bank, and maybe some settlements were kept and some are closed. And there's some border. The problem is, most Israelis, I think, would now feel that that would be another Gaza, that then heavy weapons would be brought in perhaps artillery into the West Bank, rockets would be coming through 24/7. And everybody would be all the all the terrorists and jihadists would be gathering in the West Bank for the final destruction, the final war to destroy Israel, it would be Gaza times times 10, Gaza was a trial run for the two the two state solution. It was it was a trial run, Gazans could have ignored Israel, they could have lived in peace and
prosperity that could have enjoyed their lives. They rejected that. And Palestinians of the West Bank would probably reject it, too. So
the two state solution is dead.
What happens now, nobody really knows I had optimism before. Not much optimism but at least a bit before seventh of October, I've no optimism now.
I had a plan that could be followed, that I believed in, and I think many Israeli people did or pro Israeli people. But I don't think we do know, I don't think Israel knows what it's going to do when it if probably when
later this year, it actually destroys a mass.
It's not going to solve its problems on the northern border in the West Bank, it's going to lead to a whole load of new problems in Gaza, you know, where they're going to be able to stop a new terrorist group taken over and maybe rebranded.
So I don't think Israel has some kind of answer as to what it's doing. What Israel has is it's an absolute shock, that Hamas was able to do this attack on the seventh of October, it's absolutely determined that Ms will now no longer exist, except maybe in a hotel in Qatar.
But it will no longer exist in Gaza. And as I think I said earlier, whatever we say that's, that's really its plan. But I'm afraid I have no hope, really to bring. The only hope in this conflict, which I did mention earlier on, is that Palestinians change their ideas about the future, and about what they want. But unfortunately, I really see on this no sign of that. And I see almost no sign that there are allies, like Hamza in their allies in the west and around the world are even interested in getting them to do that. So.
So I'm afraid there's nothing I can say that the problem can be easily solved. If Palestinians decide, we'll just compromise we'll lose some of our territory will have some kind of stage we live in peace. War with the Jews was a bad idea. We'll put it all behind us, like Germans in the 1950s. But there's no sign of that happening. Maybe it'll happen among the Gazans, that could be the only possible thing, maybe after the terrible loss of their war, that they will be like Germans in the 1950s. They won't want to proceed the struggle anymore. In 2025, going forward, but that's a tiny little crumb of hope. I've I'm afraid I've no hope to give you I think.
Yes, so it's interesting that we have othering language, which leads to dehumanization and dehumanization, dehumanization leads to genocide, the Palestinians change the ideas as if we know all of the ideas of the Muslim Christian Palestinians, the kind of othering that is happening in your language and also the Saturday between war against Israel now war against the Jews is these subtleties, these kind of propaganda techniques which are quite in in fact quite devilish. I know you're an atheist, so don't take it personally if you don't believe in the devil, but the
is a devilish ploy, because we is well known that the Palestinians, Muslims as well in general have never wanted to fight the Jews. In actual fact, Islam preserved the Jewish community. Philip Manson's book Constantinople has a primary source of a Jewish rabbi that was expelled from Spain because of the Inquisition, he said, Come to the land of the Turks. Rich are the fruits of the earth. We live in peace and freedom. Amnon Cohen, a Jewish historian, he's got a book called World Within. It's a two volume book, he collects 1000 records of the judicial records, the Cgo records. And he concludes that although the Jews had the freedom to go to the rabbinical courts, the majority
of them or a substantial number of them wanted to go to the kadhi, the Islamic judge because the new Justice lived under the Islamic principles, he even goes to the manushi. And he says women would complain of nasaka, meaning maintenance of, of from their husband, to the Islamic judge, and I could go on and on Zion Zaha, you could talk about jihad. True jihad is liberation of people. Zohar, another Jewish historian. He talks about the Iberian Peninsula, he says, Thus, when the Muslims crossed the Straits of Gibraltar in the Iberian Peninsula, the Jews saw the Muslims as liberated from Christian persecution. And if you look at the Treaty of the Prophet Muhammad upon him in peace
himself, he had a treaty with the Jews with the Jewish tribes, and he said they should not be harmed, and they act as one body. This is unprecedented in history. We're not fighting the Jews, we're fighting Zionism. Our job is take care of all human beings to give them dignity. And that's extremely important. And I don't like this othering language about the Palestinians and the ideas. Have you got a survey that knows about the ideas of the all of the Palestinians? Yeah, so this is no you don't all of the all of the Palestinians really surveys don't even have that those type of numbers. This is ridiculous. But the point what we're saying is this, if you want peace, they don't
have apartheid, you can never have have only learned from South Africa, South Africa had to dismantle the apartheid state. In order for peace to exist, you cannot have peace with injustice, you cannot have harmony with injustice, you cannot have peace with apartheid, there are at least 65 laws documented that discriminate against Arab Israelis and Palestinians. It is an apartheid system were established with many and by many NGOs, like Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, and others have ideological bent. And also, there is a database $1 database that looks at all of these laws and shows how they are discriminatory. So remove the apartheid system. Number two, stop
illegally occupying someone else's land stop growing this this the settlements for example, the academic Glenn E. Robinson, in the depth of the two state solution Israel, the Palestinians and the Arab world in the age of Netanyahu says the following. The most important reason for the defeat of the Palestinian natural state building project has been Israel settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, which have strongly promoted been strongly promoted by Netanyahu since 2009. The preclusion of any serious future redroot withdrawal from the West Bank was the reason why the Likud party put the settlement project on steroids after its 19 Semitism election victory. The liquids the
liquids settlement drive was designed to keep the West Bank on the permanent Israel countries really controlled and had both political and strategic dimensions the Israelis, the government never wanted peace, and it's clear from the actions. Also with regard to the two state solutions. None of the two state solutions were truly two state solutions. It was always a subjugated Palestinian people always, as Edward side famously said that it was an instrument of Palestinian surrender a Palestinian recitals, the Palestinians have effect, in effect discounted the unilateral and international agreements claim to the West Bank and Gaza. This he was referring to the famous Oslo
Accords. That was basically, you know, famously, they thought this was a great achievement from the Israelis. But in actual fact, it will just further subjugating the Palestinian people, and they had to basically surrender most of their land that belonged to them. So the point here is if you want peace, you want justice don't have apartheid, it has to be dismantled the system, if you want peace, if you want justice, stop killing innocent Palestinians, Muslims and Christians, as we said, and you did not answer that you didn't condemn this either, which is quite telling the five equivalent of October the seventh that happened before October this month, from 2008 to 2020.
Also, what you need to have is the the the the non gender genocidal approach to this issue, because again, you didn't answer any of my questions concerning the statements. You called it rhetoric, really, if any
politician, Western politician in the world made these statements they will not be described as rhetoric. In actual fact, I would say How dare you even call them rhetoric, it's a shame that you do that. Also, the actions on the ground with 50% of the aerial bombs being done bonds, dumb bombs, according to US intelligence agencies, and even Biden genocide joke, he said that basically, it's indiscriminate, killing the ally of Israel. So the point is, very, very quickly. Karen Armstrong said something very interesting. She's a, she's a popular historian. She says the Muslims
create a system of governance where Muslims, Jews and Christians live peacefully for the first time. If you look at this from a historical perspective, there's actually no other time in history where Jews, Christians, and Muslims live peacefully other than under the Islamic civilization. That's another topic, but something for you to think about something for us to explore what kind of values were in place, what kind of system was in place in order for that for that to happen? Because under secularism, under Zionism, under one of these isms, they have actually filled the Palestinians, and they have filled the Jewish people as well. And what and the Jewish people in the Palestinians and
the Christians and others, they flourished because of an alternative worldview. And that's something we should explore. We should just things on their merit by the fruits, we should know them, and peace and justice lived under the Islamic rule in that period. Now, what can we derive How can we can make that contemporary and apply in our context as another discussion from the debate by something that won't apply in your heart and mind in order for you to explore further, because Zionism is a is a failed project. What we see today is actually the destruction of Zionism. the apartheid regime is going to be annihilated in our lifetime, just like South Africa, it happened in
South Africa. And we know you can't have peace and justice with apartheid 65 laws that discriminate against Arab Israelis and Palestinians something that you don't even talk about, either. That's why I think I was just about to say in the beginning, you're either racist or ignorant, and all that. I want to thank both you, gentlemen, for coming in today. Mark, Hamza. Thank you, and I think there's a lot for us to unpack moving forward. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thanks, Shawn. And that does it for another week. We'd love for you to join the conversation by sharing the link to today's program to help us grow our audience across all our social media platforms. I like to once again
thank our special guest, Dr. Mark Humphries, enhancer tortillas, and the meantime, the conversation we'll be back next week with more investigations and analysis, and Sean Murray. Bye for now.