Feminism 2-3, Blessing Or Curse? Dawahwise Panel with Aminah Chowdhry & Others

Fatima Barkatulla

Channel: Fatima Barkatulla

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I just want to return to sr, mindful muslima. Now we've discussed a lot of the issues surrounding the Muslim, or the Muslim woman in contemporary society. And we can see clearly there are problems, they're identifiable quite easily. And there are problems, which takes a bit of thinking to identify what the causes may be. So from your perspective, what do you think the solutions are of the some of the problems that we touched upon? In a practical setting?

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Yeah, I would love to speak in a practical sense, because I feel like sometimes this whole conversation feels so big. And a lot of times as the Muslim community, we feel helpless. I've heard this conversation a lot of times between different Muslim organizations, what can we do they have a bigger media bigger agenda bigger, you know, pocket than we do? And how can we fight this. And I want to say there's some really, really practical things that we are ignoring, as a Muslim community that if we did these from the inside out, we could easily switch the narrative. And I would just like to quickly highlight those. And by the way, this is something that this is literally the reason

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I came on. And not this program. Particular, this is great program I'm talking about as an online, because I had no desire, actually, I'd like to do all the work that I do locally. But when I saw that there was no one kind of catering to this. So what I'm gonna say right now, I would like more Muslim organizations to consider this, and to maybe, you know, help in this work, because this is really much of what I do. And so the first thing is, we need to take just three, it's like a phase of phases that I go through three, three basic phases. The first one is, we need to listen to our women a bit more, I feel like you're doing an amazing job of giving this platform right so that we

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could say how we feel. But we also need to sometimes as a Muslim community, because we're a bit biased, we need to not look at our women who decide to take off hijab, and do this and do that and go on feminist marches as deviants. And I hear this type of narrative and this is incorrect, we have to look at them instead, as Okay, these are our sisters. We want to hear what their arguments here what their pains are, and so that we can understand the points that they're coming from. And I think brotherman saw he does this very well, my husband, by the way, he loves your program, we watched this for years. And he says, Oh, you know, my story is so good at hearing it, where someone's coming

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from he so he knows exactly where to speak to them in an argument. And I think that's what we're not doing with our women, we want to connect with them find out what's happening to them. We're all concerned about a woman. But are we really listening. So the first step is listening. And this is what I'm trying to do a lot more in why I create, what I create. The second one is to connect with it. And this is the harder one, I've worked with many, many Muslim organizations, and I've even helped to lead them. And I have yet to find one that does this in a very, very consecutive way in a way where they're, they're really trying to do relationship building. So the second phase is to

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connect and build real relationships with them and mentor and support them long term, I find these little things pop up here and there. But I would love for more Muslim organizations to do that. Because in doing that, we gain the understanding and trust and they feel heard, which leads into the third phase, which I think is that is everybody is looking for, which is to educate and reform and sister Fatima she spoke very well on the fact that there are certain things that this generation or the one prior or whatever, wasn't given necessarily, in terms of that of Qaeda. And if this understanding was there, if they were afforded this information, quite possibly, they wouldn't, you

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know, fall prey to all of these things that are out there. And so that's something like I try to work in that phase where I'm basically listening, trying to connect on a personal level, develop real relationships, and then coming in with the practical information. And the reason I do it that way. And let me just mention is because if these types of women, and I don't know if the other women on the panel can agree, as a woman, forget, I'm not a man, as a woman, if I speak publicly against feminism, at this day in time, it is very hard. Women will attack you in in two minutes on any form of social media, because I've seen it. And so we have to be a bit careful. And so that's why I say

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in this way. And the last point is, again, the other sisters touched on it. And I mentioned in the beginning, it comes down to the Muslim household. So because our women are not seeing, they're seeing more of the cultural Islam versus the actual real Islam. They're not getting the real picture of what Allah Subhana Allah put forth for us as women. And so as parents, we have to do a better job at making sure in our homes, we're actually islamically practicing. And we're not just following our culture because it's easy and familiar. And the other thing is as parents because we talked in the beginning about this self worth piece, that we're building the self esteem of our women, our women

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are falling prey to way too many of these ideologies because like we said they were looking for the answers, and they don't feel they are strong enough in themselves and they're looking for someone to guide and hold them up and what Who am I and and it's it's it's something we can control from

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Inside, if we start in the childhood process of making them feel really educated and understanding their place in the world and why Allah Subhana, Allah does what he does.

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Very important points, then in terms of listening, first of all, to our Muslim women, we have to listen to their pains, listen to their, you know, issues they're having is very important. I think that's one of the things that's not happening, we just tend to assume that we know what the problem is, we know what his solution is, when we haven't actually listened to them. And your point about, you know, having any stomach practice at home, I mean, you just teach our children just culture and cultural identity, then, of course, you will have this identity crisis that we just touched upon earlier on, we have to provide this Islamic package at home, from which they're nurtured. And when

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they go outside to school, college, university, eventually, they have this framework to live by, from the very beginning, so they can actually have this backbone of Islamic education. And, importantly, the point about self esteem and confidence, I think, if we can, you know, if we can put one message through from this stream, is to build the confidence that our Muslim woman needs that, yes, you as a Muslim, you know, Allah has given you the mind to understand the reason why Allah has created you. And that enough should give you the reason of, you know, your, your, your purpose in life and understanding of your place on earth. And once you've understood that, this should give you

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the utmost confidence that you need to take this journey anywhere in any society, whether they be hostile or not. So this self esteem and confidence is paramount is important. And if we can drill this in our mindset, you know, men and women that this is important, we have to have this confidence. And this confidence leads the way for example, if he did not have the confidence to wear the hijab or niqab, you will always feel there's something wrong, he's always feel ashamed, Wallace feel insecure. But when you have the confidence, nothing will remain is an obstacle in front of you. So just like

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all of you this is very, very important points that you've mentioned. So I appreciate a you know, the points are coming through from from this talk, you know, and especially from your perspective, is that, once again, I believe Brother Mohammed wants to make a point a shot. So I just want to come in here with one sort of clarification, because there's a number of folks that have may have joined midstream, unless they start thinking that we're sort of throwing sort of the entirety of feminist thought under the bus, this is not true, I think it's important to first of all, appreciate that there was a genuine Western problem that they had in the US, in the UK, in France. And it came about

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because of their worldview. So the solutions they arrived at was articulated very early in the in the program by

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Amina earlier. Now,

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the key thing to understand here is that this solution is not for us, as Muslims. And for those that have adopted that thinking, Midway without understanding where it came from, is I think part of the reason we're having this disconnected discussion today, which is, it's evolved. And certainly I think, more recently, the wave around what they would call this idea of intersectional feminism, where they realize this idea that Oh, my goodness, you know, we've been racist, we've been

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exclusive. It's been predominantly a white, female, Western, you know, privileged kind of pursuit. Well, let's try and bring in some of the concepts to it. And what we have right now is feminist, which was about rights to vote is slowly morphed into a feminism of multi faceted approach depending on where it lands on culture, on, on background, etc, etc. And there's so much intersectionality now, I think they're sort of beginning to miss the point of why this thing added why this thing happened. And I think this goes back, you know, to the teachings in the Quran, where, where it's clear that the last one of the others if it was not from Allah, it would be confusion. And this is

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exactly what we're seeing, where any ideology that is not from Allah

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clearly results in confusion across the board, and we're seeing the manifestation of it now. I just want to sort of make that point and, and for those that came midstream, we recognize there was a problem in the West is a problem, but it wasn't our problem. It was their problem. And they created a solution that is now even worse.

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So we have put the link for the guests to join us in the panel and ask questions. inshallah.

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While we are waiting for the guest to join us, is there any other point anyone wants to make?

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Can I make a point? Yes, I think valensole was asking me about gender roles. And I personally didn't answer that at that point. But I would say that, even if you think from the point of equality, you have to see that our Muslim men and women are equal as slaves of art, all men and women are equal in the eyes of Allah as slaves of Allah, you know, women pray five times a day, men pray five times a day, fasting is the same 100 the same? So practice the same, why don't we consider these things as then, in the eyes of law? You know, is there anything that prohibits that or says that the reward is different for a woman and a man is also equality for even want to talk in these terms, then, just in

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the family, the roles are different. But even then the rules, the difference of roles, and maybe the gender roles are more defined within a family circle in Islam, you can see those rules are different, but they are not preferential. So these kinds of things should also be talked about. But again, as we also talked about, this was not our problem. Because we had this framework, Muslim men and women slaves, a whole lot Muslim men and men in the eyes of law, you know, the family. And you know, even if you even if anybody studying the family felt the tip of family in Islam, you'll see that that field is around built around the women, the mother, it's so much preference is given to

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them. So but the same thing, you know, it was never our problem. But when, you know, we started doing which, which, which, which made people come up with this solution. It became our problem. But this I think this point should be made very clear. Feminism was there for a reason. And we know that this was their history, this, it's justified in many ways, and in many ways, it's not, but then it was never our history. And I think that's the point that we are missing. That, you know, that was not our issue that are not our problem. And another thing is that, you know, this is something we teach courses on in university, mistaken universals, somehow, we all have started to think, but ever

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that the definition the West has put out for anything is universal. And we don't question that, for example, insecurity, you know, if you take this word insecurity or so and so person is insecure, you will see that that definition is very lustful, in its in its explanation. And that's the thing that many Muslim children, they try to apply the western definitions of things to Islam and therefore get very confused. So also the case of mistaken universal Do you think everything that was has to teach is universal? And never question? I think that's another issue that you know, we should be focusing on. I just want to remind viewers who are joining in joining insha Allah, please be mindful.

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And phrase your questions appropriately. And we don't want anything to you know, harm, anyone's understandings or anything. So this is a stream where we're trying to understand a subject so be cordial in your question, and to the topic that we're discussing and be brief and concise. So we're going to bring in some guests now. Insha Allah.

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Hello salonica Malecon? So my question is, do you think feminism have influenced Muslim girls to ask so ask for so much

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like I am.

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I'm a Muslim guy and I want to get married. And my friends tell me like when they want to get married, the girls asks for extreme Dima extremely high.

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Okay, I've got your question. Thank you very much. Where are you calling from?

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I'm calling from Palestine. Okay.

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I don't mind answering that.

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No, I don't think feminism has anything to do with my hair.

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I think throughout Muslim history, if you really study you'll find that there's been different classes of people and different communities and different countries that

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have had high matters, you know,

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even at the time of Omar mental health

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But they were women, that the MA has had gone up so much that, you know, Omar tried to put a limit on the MA Harrison, and then the women objective and they said, Well, you know, according to the Quran, you can't limit the matter. So then he didn't. So I don't think it's that I think

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it's to do with,

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you know, society needs to do with culture, it's to do with the way people are interacting. And, and again, it's, it is very cultural, it's not an Islamic thing, because, of course, the prophet SAW Selim did encourage people to make marriage easy and make Zener difficult. But unfortunately, I think, in many countries, were seeing that people have high murderers. And that's usually coming from the, the families of the girls, it's not the girls themselves, you know, so I really don't think you can really connect that to, to feminism. And I think we have to be careful as Muslims, when we're discussing this topic,

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not to act as though our societies don't have any problems. You know, like when we say that the West had a problem. And so then they, our societies do have problems. You know, I lived in Egypt, in Egypt, you have a massive sexual harassment problem.

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You know, it doesn't matter how you dress as a Muslim woman, you have that problem, even if you're wearing niqab. And I'm sorry to bring that up. But I really think that we don't want to, as a community exonerate ourselves and say, we don't have corruption, we don't have crimes that are going on, right, that sometimes anger people and anger women,

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and then drive them to adopt certain ideologies. And so I think, along with trying to counter the feminist narrative, we also have to make a real effort to reform reform as in renew our societies, you know, because what, what are our boys being taught? When there's an epidemic of sexual harassment? In a city like Cairo? You know, what's happening? What's happening to the therapy of boys? So

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I mentioned it in line with the matter is, because, again, why are Muslims having high murder as what, you know, these are internal problems to do with tarbiat? to do with the way we are? We value things in society, right? We need to start addressing from the ground up, I understand but like, shouldn't the amount of my hair like,

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like, the point of the point of reference for the hair would be like, what the wives of the Prophet asked for? Like today, guys asked for, like, 1010. That's the most of it. Like, they asked for 10 times what the wives of the Prophet asked. And I think like, that's extremely high. I mean, there is there is a point where like, it's high, and it's extremely high.

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That's my problem. Yeah, of course, like, people should not be making making them exorbitant. That's true. But there's no, there's no necessity for it to be exactly the same as the wives of the Prophet sallallahu sallam.

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You know, it's always been the case that, for example, upper class women would ask for higher merits, right? That's, it's not really something that's fixed. But at the same time, you know, may Allah subhanaw taala make it easy for you to for your situation to be resolved. And you're right, that people should be making marriage easy.

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I'm Monica,

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can you hear me? Yes. Yes. What are you calling from? And what's your question brother

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from

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Nairobi. Okay.

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regards to the gender restrictions that we are all aware of, yeah, the day

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and I'm aware, and you have also mentioned that we have had women scholars in the past. With that in mind, how are they teaching the

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their, their students?

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Was it in public or was it in private as well?

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Sorry. Question, did you?

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So I think one of the key points in your question is how did the, the Muslim female scholar?

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Did they teach in public or in private? What was the method of teaching?

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The gender restrictions that we are all aware of at the moment?

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They're like,

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okay, okay. I can answer this question.

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Very good. This is a very good question. And it gives us you know, more insight into what we're talking about these days. So yes, Muslim women did teach and share. Akram has a book that just came out over this app store talking about female scholars, and especially he's talking about the female scholars of Habib.

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And he has you know, brought about many records of that and you see that of course, the researchers are there and whenever a Muslim woman is in a public space, she will have to observe teacher.

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So the light covering herself and all of that whatever, whatever that you have mentioned, are there but they did teach and this is what it is because the FISA sayyida Nafisa was the teacher that we do in history. And she was a teacher of enamel Shafi. So if you look at many other scholars, and you look at the line of the teacher, you see the woman teachers are there, the cookie jars, especially in heavy performing teachers, and they taught in many different places, but always with a job. So that's the case. So maybe with the understanding might be that some of the teachers would sit behind a curtain and teach. Some of them would teach the dirty jobs and DevOps over to sitting in front of

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the students. So that was done, but that was definitely done. So there was this do not even huddle Escalante, the great Hadid scholar about his wife, he had a wife, her name was unspotted. And she would give about public talks to people. And this is the legacy of Syrah issue. That you know, she thought she went on to Iraq to teach people yes, she taught behind the curtain. So yes, people are taught like that. People also taught, you know, with dirty jobs on and things like that, you know, and sitting in front of the students. Yes. So that was I guess we have many records of women teaching, but that later on went down. But yes, woman's followers were there and they were teaching

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you can look at the chains of teacher that many prominent scholars have and you will see the teachers teaching here. Absolutely. I hope this answer your question, but I have the majestic Islamorada

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red pen, Salaam Alaikum. Peace Be brief with your question with a lot of people trying to enter our case. Salam aleikum wa rahmatullah wa

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Salaam. So

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I just want to ask the sister as a woman, how they can approach these virtual Crump because this is one of the verses that feminists

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attach to and give like a big issue. Only he Tyler will let it as often and she was old enough. I don't know. Nothing. magaji weatherable nothing upon uncomfortable Alina Sevilla, WA colo tala Rijo Muna Allah Nisa, how do you give the approach of the understanding of these two verse because even men sometime you know they must understand these verse. This is my two question for the sisters. Thank you brothers Baraka law, you come to me, because I believe this question was already answered on our last stream in quite in detail by Daniel Akiko. So if you look at our last stream, inshallah, that will save us a lot of time, you have brother Hashem, but I want the sister how they approach I

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mean, when they talk to women, how they give the understanding, is the same.

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Why would it differ? Because, you know, this is the issue of women because every time we approach feminists, they said, You explaining from the your understanding as a man, you you know what I'm saying? Okay, so you think there's a different understanding four, I want to move on. I want to be sure that it's how everyone understand Come on. It's not a man issue. That's my point.

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That's why I'm telling you is not a man issue. But what I'm saying is that if some scholar or some brother or even some sister explains this to you in detail, and then you keep going and asking everybody else, the same question, then either you haven't understood the previous answer or you believe that the systems will answer differently to the men. No, you understand? Yeah, it's not I understand the verb but

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we got your question. I think you want sisters perspective on this one? Exactly. Any sister on the panel of if you wish to answer this question.

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Chapters written Surah Nisa was number 34. I believe

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So I can answer that.

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And in this so if you see that where that is placed in the Quran, this is placed in the Quran and sort of listen at the waist rottenness. It starts certain bizarre starts with a very egalitarian message a low balances and the beginning of Soraka Musa that he has created men and women from a single soul. So when we think about this verse in the Quran, the Quran will not be surviving fighting, forget how the surah is talking. And this one is higher in it, you know, this Pawan is not understood in matter of a ruler, or a king or something like that. For one, you know, if you if you look at overall message of Islam, if you if you look at the life of the prophesy,

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men are supporters of two women. No, but if you look at that, you know they are higher, the stolen means that they are higher in responsibility. But that being said, we all we're all answerable to Allah.

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And because the problem is always that because the women they get confused with concept is that because the thing that women can do, what men can do, and this, this, this framework creates the problem. It's not that you know what they can do and what we can do, it's not about competition. It's about taking our work in deriving a reward from Allah, Donna. So men being combined, why should we took it as a problem, I think we should be happy about it, that Allahu taala gave men more responsibility. And Allahu taala saved women from that responsibility, and a lot Allah gave them. So this difference is never preferential. That's the problem. Because men think Kawan is preferred, no,

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or a person whose column is going to enter general more easily than a person who is not accustomed to seeing the wound is just a matter of responsibility. And this bulama is within the family, a husband is a qalam or the wife. And sometimes, and again, I will go back to that, because this is my background. And as you know, and as part of my sister Fatima also highlighted, it's not that you know, you're blaming the west for everything, but just because we are Western. So we have to understand that this is our background. And somehow we look at those things and not understand our own. And the thing is that this is a very Western lens, again to look at, it's because the worst

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thing, if we accept the gender differences, it will lead to injustice. That's not what is missing. Islam is saying, it can be they're good. They're not identical, but doesn't mean they're preferential either. So if a man is for one of the family, if this this is a very functional thing, but whoever reaches by it, whoever he reaches to the grace of Allah depends upon how much a person is pious, the level, the level of topline piety that So again, the thing is that, that this difference, this kawaman, everything is in terms of responsibility. And it is not preferential at all.

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For sia,

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Solomonic monocle over to

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her this has been a wonderful conversation.

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I certainly want to pivot a little bit

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to talking about practicalities. So I think we all understand the real impact of feminism on the Muslim family. And I think in particular, the impact on

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on families that are either Black or African descent. And the reason I say this, is that when we think about and I don't like using this word, because I think now it's very loaded, but that intersectionality so you have on top of the feminism piece, you have that racism piece, and a lot of black men or African men unfortunately,

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you know, it's it's hard for them to provide either that in Africa or you know, that that support for their families because of either under employment or I'm not given the economic access

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due to unfortunate racism within the systems. I'm sure you experienced this in the UK as well. So what I would like to have a conversation about perhaps is how can we counter act, this impact of feminism,

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you know, whether it is economically socially, other ways as a Muslim community, so that we can recalibrate, and we can restore that balance and uplift the Muslim family. jacoco

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would like to answer that question.

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I don't mind. But I don't know if I fully caught the question.

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Is it that?

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The problem of nefa? He said in the family? Sorry, could you just repeat it? Yeah, absolutely. I think it's just in general.

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You know, sometimes, as a result of feminism, and in some communities, you find that, you know, the men in this community are they're there, they're insufficient, they're not good, you know, there's nobody good to marry. And that could be as a result of, you know, the feminist mindset.

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Coupled with

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the inability, I think, and sometimes the, the inability to have that economic.

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Like the opportunities for for employment or, you know, just the economic

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self sufficiency in, in, in some communities as a result of racism or, you know, not having access to opportunities. So I wanted to talk a little bit about how as, as women, we can counteract this narrative,

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too.

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Because I suspect, that's another reason why feminism is so prevalent, because of course, there's all these systemic barriers, that's preventing, or are creating barriers, essentially. And how can we, as Muslim women, support

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men further? Because we are living unfortunately, in a system that is so entrenched in feminism, does that make sense? Or? I think so. Um, well, I think one of the things I would say is,

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I think our entire community needs to get out of the victim, hood mentality, you know,

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sometimes we've adopted these ideas of white privilege, you know, the society is stacked against us, it cetera, et cetera. And, of course, there's oppression in society. Of course, there are, you know, inequalities and struggles. But I would argue that every single human being every strata of society has its

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privileges, right. And it's, you know, disadvantages, right. So, as a Muslim, I believe that we should consider ourselves to have Muslim privilege. You know, if you've grown up with Islam, you've grown up, knowing your purpose in life, your Creator, having a connection with your Creator, that is the ultimate privilege. And so I believe we should be, instead of perpetuating this narrative, which is very prevalent society today that you know,

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black people, brown people, so called ba me, po C's, right, tons, which I hate, absolutely hate. You know, instead of perpetuating this narrative, that we're all victims, now, we need to create our own narrative, and that is that this life can be a struggle, but all of us have the ability to rise above, to strive to struggle, and to, you know, make a success of ourselves, we do have the ability to do that Allah Subhan. Allah has given us that agency and ability. So I think if there are problems of, you know, men, I think what what the system is highlighting is men not being able to meet their obligations. I think, again, that's something that we're going to have to look into in

00:34:01--> 00:34:20

our own communities and understand how are we raising our boys? What support mechanisms have we put into place to help young people get married, you know, and to be able to support families and things like that. So I don't personally think we need to

00:34:21--> 00:35:00

buy in to any of those kinds of victim narratives. Instead, I think we should work hard, we should raise boys and girls who are hardworking, and who understand their obligations and strive to fulfill those obligations. And at the same time, we should raise daughters who understand that life isn't plain sailing, sometimes there might be financial problems in a couple, you know, you could marry a rich man and then, you know, you fall on hard times. That kind of resilience and tawakkol and, you know, Bill

00:35:00--> 00:35:12

To live within the means and those kinds of things, those are the bread and butter qualities I think that we need to be instilling in our kids and that will help. inshallah

00:35:17--> 00:35:30

radical Islam, rahmatullah wa barakato tato. I would like to please explain me, the meaning of mabalacat, the woman slave, are, the slaves

00:35:33--> 00:35:41

are the slave and the Masters can do anything with that slave? Please explain. The Quranic word marble.

00:35:43--> 00:36:00

So, before before we even attempt to answer this question, have you tried reading some of the Tafseer material on this? I'm sure the answers are all there. Rather than coming on a live stream and asking this question, just, you know, you know, what understood what this refers to?

00:36:01--> 00:36:24

what we're dealing with, we're trying to understand the impact of feminism, what the world is suffering from, rather than some of the questions that you might be having. So I mean, I'm going to filter now, because we're mindful of a lot of questions coming through, a lot of people are waiting. So if anyone wants to take that question, otherwise, I'm gonna move on to other callers who are waiting.

00:36:26--> 00:37:14

I mean, I don't want to just quickly saying about that, because I guess like, the reason why the brothers is bringing up is because sometimes feminists do bring it up. Right, like, so. I think the point is, that slavery was a system that existed in the past. And, you know, having female slaves was part of that. And it was usually to do with integrating prisoners of war into the Muslim community, right. So after a battle, how to integrate the prisoners from the other side, into the Muslim community. And the system was there that, you know, you had slaves who would then be attached to a particular person or a particular family.

00:37:16--> 00:37:59

And it's as simple as that. I mean, that's it. And that was a system that existed, it no longer exists. So I don't think it's really relevant. You know, even when we were studying fic, when we came to the slavery chapters, our she said, was really not relevant today. So, you know, now that there's a consensus in the world that, okay, this particular practice has now been stopped with something that human beings have agreed that we're not going to take part in this is fine, you know, for the Muslim community to move on from it and so I don't think we need to, we need to worry about it, inshallah.

00:38:00--> 00:38:01

Okay,

00:38:02--> 00:38:06

next we have ina, Kelly, Abraham.

00:38:10--> 00:38:11

You're muted. Can you hear us?

00:38:26--> 00:38:28

Can you guess? Sally? Can? Can you hear me?

00:38:30--> 00:38:31

Yes, we can. Yes.

00:38:33--> 00:38:46

I feel like what the sisters are saying is so so true, especially what meaningful Muslim has said about how we need to listen to a Muslim woman and when they're coming in and talking about genuine problems that they're having in their home.

00:38:48--> 00:39:23

And, for example, why feminism is attractive is because when Muslim woman come with genuine problems, they're called emotional and they're called, all these other things, and they're not listened to. They You know, they're labeled. And that's why they're going to turn to feminists who are, you know, agreeing with their reality with that genuine Muslim woman who's at home and facing that inequality. So I really think it's wrong when, for example, yesterday when that Muslim woman came on the live stream, I really have to bring this up because I really felt like she was not treated right. And we did not listen to her. And we did not she says she was not a feminist, and she

00:39:23--> 00:39:31

said that she was facing genuine inequality in her household by her parents, seeing her and her brother differently.

00:39:33--> 00:39:40

But she was labeled as Oh, she's deluded. She's emotional. She's just a feminist even though she said that she wasn't. And it's like

00:39:41--> 00:39:49

respect I don't think anyone on the panel use those words. Maybe in the comment section, but we are not obviously responsible for all of them. So

00:39:50--> 00:39:53

Daniel, sorry, Daniel did say that.

00:39:55--> 00:39:59

She was diluted, I forgot. Know that she that we have to talk about reality.

00:40:00--> 00:40:20

Even though she was telling her, you know her what's happening in her home, and Hashim, you did say that all you think she's having a personal problem, a personal issue with Daniel. But it's no she's not having a personal issue with her that she's bringing up. She's She's telling how, what issues she's really facing? No, actually,

00:40:21--> 00:41:00

the issue was something that I wasn't aware of about a tweet that I was completely unaware of. And that's why I said that this has something to do with something, not what we discussed in the panel here, but something outside of it. That's what I meant by personal. And also, if you remember, we asked her specifically, what the issue was troubling her in the family. And she said, it's private, she doesn't want to go into it. So we better look instead of this way. But she did bring it up. She did. She gave us examples afterwards. She didn't want to speak about her dad's job. But she specifically said that when she has studying or assignments or, you know, things like emergency

00:41:00--> 00:41:08

things to do, her brother helping her out in the cooking and cleaning is not even an option. And that's not okay. And she did she specifically.

00:41:10--> 00:41:27

I get you I mean, I understand we we should have been probably more more sympathetic towards her, say her issue at home. But do you think that her family, treating the siblings differently is something that Islam promotes? It's something that

00:41:28--> 00:42:07

that is part of what Islam teaches? Or is this something? And the honors of taking care of the issues with the parents? What do you think the problem lies? I I definitely don't think an Islamic thing. But when a sister comes to you with those kind of issues, and you say, Oh, it's not Islam, it's like, No, these are Muslim parents that are doing this. So it has to become an Islamic issue where we have to talk to the Muslim parents. Okay, so do you think that the blame There lies with the parents for treating their siblings differently? Yeah, so I feel like, okay, a girl can cook and clean. But if she has studying to do, she shouldn't watch her brother lay on the couch, he could

00:42:07--> 00:42:45

just help her, you know, and this should be implemented in boys, this idea that men no matter what they shouldn't even be in the kitchen. I feel like it's wrong. It makes Muslim more I feel like I'm just a machine to cook and clean my study. And as a matter of example, the brother brought up how Islam, a woman are allowed to study. And we love to see this as Muslims. But when there's a real issue with a Muslim girl, there's most Muslim girls who have faced this at home, they're made to feel like they're studying is nothing that the priority is cooking and cleaning. It doesn't mean anything when you tell them Islam or women are allowed to study. Yes. I think that's a good point, I

00:42:45--> 00:42:57

believe so system, mindful Muslim, are touched upon this, where you kind of mix culture with religion. And it's kind of dangerous, and that's where the problem arises. So perhaps the system might want to elaborate on that point, inshallah.

00:42:59--> 00:43:37

I think both of you touched on an important point, which is empathy, and sympathizing. And the fact that, for example, there's so many other groups that are willing to take a sister like this, who's having a particular feeling of you know, oh, this was, you know, no one's hearing me right now. I feel like this is unfair. And then other groups will say, yes, it is unfair all come to us. And this is what's happening to our women. And in Yes, it is cultural over Islamic because we all know that was awesome. He helped out in the home, he helped. So this is not from them. But like we said the product, his sister Fatima touched on that we have a lot of our own problems. And what what I think

00:43:37--> 00:44:13

what I was trying to mention in what many of us are touching on now is we're not addressing our problems. So our women are going other where other words for solutions, they're they're looking for someone who will listen. And the moment someone listens, because they are suffering with this pain, and this self esteem issue and everything else, the first person who will listen, they say, Oh, look, I you know, they will hear me. So what else do they have to say? Whether it's islamically, good for us or not. And that is the danger. And so that's why I'm grateful for this platform, because we need to touch on this so that we can say, well, we obviously need to address these issues

00:44:13--> 00:44:47

with our women and stop brushing them off. Because they lead to bigger issues, especially when they feel like the Muslim, my Muslim people. They're not listening to me. And look, I have this person who doesn't believe in Islam, and they're listening to me. They they will be more attracted to them, especially when you when a lot of Muslim girls, they just see feminism as equal to women's rights. They don't understand the baggage. Once they accept that and they stop in other things like abortion and all these other horrible things that come along with it. You see them start to parrot these things as well. And that's why a lot of people apostate in the US as well. Because then the

00:44:47--> 00:44:59

evangelists over here, they swoop right in, you know, like, for example, when our women are suffering from domestic violence issues, the churches open their doors, and then they start to feed them and so forth. So yeah, this is an important issue, which is that thank you so much.

00:45:00--> 00:45:25

Allow me to speak and insha Allah, we can be more sympathetic that Muslim sister maybe even apologize because honestly meaning really, really upset what happened yesterday and especially there was in the comments, please. We said fastest yesterday was was horrible. And I mean, there's not millions but 1000s of sisters who are gonna watch that video and read your comments and think, oh, if I speak about about any injustice, I must be emotional, I must be deluded. And this is not right. But thank you so much.

00:45:28--> 00:46:15

And brothers, can I can I just mention something here? I think one the point that the sister made, it really highlights something that I've been experiencing as well, which is that I've been taking tea sessions with teenage girls. And one of the things you find is they have a lot of these types of complaints, you know, so there are perceived or real injustices or, you know, unfair treatment and complains that they have within within their homes. And I think all that they've heard of in the Muslim society or misconceptions they have about Islam. And then, because nobody's willing to really engage with them, you know, and not willing to listen, and not willing to gently explain something

00:46:15--> 00:46:17

properly. I think

00:46:18--> 00:46:59

some of them get very disenfranchised with our own community. So yeah, I think it is very important to, to understand that some often, you know, brother Hamza always says that doubts, people who have doubts in Islam, often there's an emotional reason for those doubts, right? There's something that happened to them, you know, they were beaten in the mosque by some Sheriff or the, you know, whatever it is. And they've taken that experience, because as human beings, we are emotional, you know, we're not, we're not purely rational, we will take that experience, and then we will, you know, extend it and think that maybe this is what Islam is teaching, because my dad's religious, my

00:46:59--> 00:47:32

mom's religious, etc. So, yeah, I do think it is very important for us to provide sympathy, support and empathy to people, and to reinforce to them, that those attitudes are not Islamic, necessarily, maybe they're part of that culture. And if you want to change culture, the way you do it is by raising children and you know, changing the culture of your own community through through working hard, engaging, etc.

00:47:35--> 00:47:37

Brother Officer salonica.

00:47:39--> 00:47:42

So good, where you're from, we're calling from and what's the question?

00:47:43--> 00:47:46

Can you guys hear me? Yes? Yeah, we can

00:47:47--> 00:47:51

somebody come by remiss of them. I'm from Pakistan.

00:47:53--> 00:47:54

My question was,

00:47:55--> 00:48:11

we can use the history of our Slavic history, like kings and candies, that woman were as a queens or something. And history. Can we use history as a

00:48:13--> 00:48:14

to justify

00:48:16--> 00:48:16

feminism, the

00:48:17--> 00:48:18

woman's

00:48:20--> 00:48:21

not feminism?

00:48:23--> 00:48:32

Can we use the history to justify women's right in Islam? So what he's saying? Yeah, Islamic history of a woman.

00:48:33--> 00:48:33

Okay.

00:48:36--> 00:48:36

Okay,

00:48:37--> 00:49:21

brother, that's a very good, that's a very good thought. I truly think that Islamic history, and sera being part of that, starting with the seed of the processor, we can highlight these role models, because role models are needed, especially for younger people and for us all. So when we see role models, we try to, you know, emulate them. So I think Islamic history, and especially the serum, but do understand that there is Islamic history, and then there is a Muslim part to it, which is not that perfect. So you know, because Islam is perfect, got the Muslims. So but yes, I think that's a very good resource, and we can bring out some good role models from there and present it of

00:49:21--> 00:49:22

course, why not?

00:49:23--> 00:49:24

Click

00:49:27--> 00:49:30

again, go to Somalia calm.

00:49:31--> 00:49:32

Salam,

00:49:33--> 00:49:55

I just randomly joined him. So this great panel at all, why not just jump in? So my question is to Raja by that, you know, in Pakistan, obviously, seeing the genesis of feminism and the West is far ahead. But something that I experienced and I maybe want you to give your perspective of from your sort of,

00:49:56--> 00:50:00

from your wide experience across the country, I found the feminist inbox

00:50:00--> 00:50:14

To be very vulgar, right? I was in government, college Lahore and all these other places. And it wasn't like moderate feminism, it was like a radical feminism. So could you just give a few thoughts on that, please?

00:50:18--> 00:50:20

This is located in Brazil was good to see you here, Mashallah.

00:50:22--> 00:50:24

What I'll say is that

00:50:25--> 00:51:06

the mainstream majority of women in Pakistan are not pro feminism, as a matter of fact, you know, we have the audit March every year. But right parallel to that, or is March, there's another March happening, which is, I think, known as the higher March or something similar. And these are also women who are wearing hijab, maybe niqab and they are practicing Muslim women, who also marched for actual women's rights, and they don't get highlighted on the mainstream media. But who do get the media attention is actually the people from the earth March? And yes, you are correct in saying that, over the past few years, last two, three years, the kind of banners and placards that they've

00:51:06--> 00:51:43

been displaying in the earth March, they have been quite obscene, first and foremost, then the kind of display of, you know, dance and song that they're doing over there a lot of the stuff that's happening. I mean, one wonders, even if a person is very neutral, you wonder that, you know, what has all of this got to do with women's rights anyway? I mean, all of that stuff that's going on? What has that got to do with real women's issues that like, for example, this is true came on and mentioned about, you know, inequality in the household, or, you know, what real any Muslim women go through? So how is that even relevant? So, in a way, you do find that and if you want to really,

00:51:43--> 00:51:51

like, put it down in a box, I would say that it's the feminist movement, along with the kind of Marxist

00:51:53--> 00:52:02

movement that have kind of joined hands. And this is the net product that we're seeing at the Art March and similar kinds of campaigns that are happening across the country.

00:52:05--> 00:52:05

Yeah, this

00:52:06--> 00:52:09

is definitely like you said, it's like a radical Marxist

00:52:10--> 00:52:12

vein that you know, they take.

00:52:14--> 00:52:18

And, yeah, the audit, I'm glad to hear about the higher March. I didn't know about it.

00:52:19--> 00:52:19

Good stuff.

00:52:23--> 00:52:24

Can I just say Salaam two brothers?

00:52:26--> 00:52:30

Sister, how you doing? My former colleague? hamdulillah? Fine. hamdulillah.

00:52:34--> 00:52:35

Few more often, inshallah.

00:52:40--> 00:52:40

My

00:52:42--> 00:52:43

brother.

00:52:44--> 00:52:47

Can I Sorry, could I just ask a quick question to Brother Roger.

00:52:49--> 00:53:17

Brothers sorry. That's a follow up to what was said were asked, you know, like, do you see like with the other match? Do you see the ladies having valid, valid complaints? And how do you the I don't know, the Muslim leaders, especially the religious leaders, how did they respond to, to the genuine kind of complaints and things like that?

00:53:19--> 00:53:56

Yeah, exactly. Half of the question. Well, the, the the other March that is happening, it's, it's basically done by one of the mainstream political parties in Pakistan, which is a kind of a religious political party. And they basically gathered the women under one banner, because what happened was that over the last few years, when a lot of the practicing Muslim sisters decided to join the earth March, they found that their voices were not being heard, or they found that a lot of the other claims that were being made, or a lot of the other rights that were being championed, they were not agreeing with those rights at all. Like, for example, as I mentioned that the right to for

00:53:56--> 00:53:59

abortion, and you know, this kind of, you know,

00:54:00--> 00:54:37

having this open sexuality, this type of stuff, because a lot of that was not resonating with people who actually went there the last maybe two, three years ago. And so every year, you find that people who even at that point, you know, came under the impression that you know, or at March is actually very, very pro women's rights, they realize that, under the garb of women's rights, a lot of other demands were being also asked for, which a lot of people didn't agree with. And as far as the general public is concerned, I think a lot of people really were happy that there were women who were asking for actual women's rights, they were they were asking for the rights that actually Islam

00:54:37--> 00:55:00

already gives women but as the sister also pointed out earlier, that you know, we and I think a lot of you also spoke about that that a lot of times it happens that Islam is giving a lot of rights, but the people aren't giving those rights. So we are completely okay with helping our sisters out in terms of getting those rights you know, if they're not getting their share of the inheritance or if they're facing domestic violence, or if there's any

00:55:00--> 00:55:34

Anything else that they're actually going through? We don't mind. I mean, and when I say we, I mean, the religious community of Pakistan, they don't shy away from these things. And I think, whenever given the opportunity, we do speak about it. But I think at the core of it is Serbia of the massive population that we have. And this is where the problem lies. So it is doing therapy of the mother is doing therapy of the Father. And then that's because that's the way the family unit starts, it starts with the husband and the wife. And so I remember going on on a particular talk show and

00:55:35--> 00:56:14

all of the, of the women there on the panel, were basically very, very pro feminism very, very pro or as much. And so one of the questions that came to me was that, you know, how can we fix the patriarchy? How can we fix this misogynistic attitude that men have, I was like, the first and foremost place of education for any child is the lap of the mother. That's where it all starts. So if you want to remove patriarchy, start teaching this to your young boys from a very early age, because at the early age, if you like, you know, as Napoleon said, give me great mothers and I'll give you a great nation. So it all starts from the household. Because now when you look at the whole

00:56:14--> 00:56:16

corporate system from a very early age,

00:56:18--> 00:56:47

women are told to go out into the workplace, where does the child go, the child goes into daycare. So who's teaching about patriarchy, the daycare who's teaching these things at the Montessori level, school level, college level university level? So I think it's a lot more to do with the view of the masses than anything else. And I think people, as I said earlier, that people already have inclination towards Islam is just about, you know, guiding them towards that way. And, you know, educating them about what Islam is and what our culture is and where the difference lies between the two.

00:56:51--> 00:56:56

Salaam Alaikum. Brother, do you want to unmute yourself? And state your question please?

00:56:57--> 00:56:58

Welcome.

00:56:59--> 00:57:00

How are you guys? You guys good?

00:57:03--> 00:57:05

handling me, so

00:57:07--> 00:57:11

I'm just here to reply to the girl that like literally just went

00:57:13--> 00:57:46

by then Daniel. Allah is only a woman great Leon ism has daughters, mothers and wives and gives him rights and virtues and enjoys good chimneys in ways that are not shared by men in many cases, in many cases. And the just to give context, what I want to see the sisters as well to react to this. I'm not sure if they know what exactly happened regarding that situation. But there was a Muslim who posted a tweet, and I'll read you the tweet now. Which was if rape was about how revealing clothes were, then woman fully covered in your cubs injury, Babs will not get raped, but they do.

00:57:47--> 00:58:12

And but then you reply saying if seatbelts were about saving lives, then people wearing seatbelts would never die in car crashes, but they do. So I feel like Daniel was the girl that came on previously, she was going based on emotion. And what Danny was trying to say that she is more sensitive towards her own personal situation, rather than the Muslims who are feeling

00:58:14--> 00:58:39

like down because when we have, I don't want a backlight when you connect that may Allah bless the sister who posted the tree and guide her for this type of tweet that is almost demonizing the role, the hijab and genweb have in society that is almost saying like, it has no use, it has no value. And I felt like brother Daniel was trying to defend the right. And digital, in fact, does have

00:58:40--> 00:58:43

Muslim identity, it does have benefits it has

00:58:44--> 00:58:45

rational behind it.

00:58:47--> 00:58:49

And I did feel that the sister said was unfair.

00:58:50--> 00:58:56

Regarding the Daniel's comments, and yeah, I just want to have the sisters in take on that.

00:58:57--> 00:59:17

Yeah, let's let's not make that more controversial than what it already is. The main point I think everybody is saying is that we should be more sympathetic in our approach. Maybe some people take the words in a different way. Okay, maybe the thing it's, it's something which is harsh was something we get the same What do you say?

00:59:18--> 00:59:55

criticism when we are at speakers corner, you know, in the way we speak, sometimes it might might come across as harsh and not sympathetic. We know we can't be in that state all the time. So depending on the motion, depending on the conversation, it can differ from at the end of the day, we are all human is that the most important thing is then the issue is that Daniel wanted to basically focus on in that particular conversation was the sister was having some issue with the siblings being fairly untreated, unfairly treated by the parents and I think that is a bit that Daniel did not probably

00:59:56--> 00:59:59

understand or get or probably didn't hear hear it. So

01:00:00--> 01:00:08

He asked her again, what is the problem and she didn't want to say and then the conversation started about the to it. So let's not prolong this any longer. Because

01:00:09--> 01:00:10

anyway,

01:00:12--> 01:00:55

this is not a platform where we're trying to, you know, just go about what people in personality issues about, you know, as, as Fatima, and sister Muslim mindfulness already touched upon, we need to listen, with empathy and with sympathy. I mean, there's no, there's no ifs and buts on these issues, unless we listen and and understand, and also need to, you know, appreciate that people's perception may vary. I mean, sometimes, you know, I don't really think how people view me when I speak very loudly, and only when I look at the comments, for example, when I watch my videos are really depressing. You've been very harsh, but that was never my intention. So often our perception

01:00:55--> 01:01:40

as a misunderstood or even seen differently. So we have to really have some kind of introspection as well as to see know, how do we come across people. So if we don't, you know, view ourselves in this lens, if we are in public, for example, now I have to really be mindful in terms of the language I use, in the tone that I use, how polite I'm coming across or not. So this is a lesson in education for everyone in sha Allah, may Allah guide us to this knowledge and understanding so that, you know, we can all benefit from each other. So that, you know, in the end, at the end of the day, you know, we aim to learn and use that knowledge in practice for the benefit of the people. So just like look

01:01:40--> 01:01:42

around for coming along, rather than worry