PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE Two faced coward or last resort of the disempowered
Channel: Abdurraheem Green
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Episode Transcript ©
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Salam aleikum everyone welcome to a piece a piece of cake
with in the corner over there which I don't know if it's the right or the left but over there is the doctor the esteemed doctor
Dr Abdul Haq
Baker What a lovely day Masha Allah is going to be baking up a piece of cake today in Sharla very interesting
about aggressive behavior
metaphorically speaking of course and in that corner on the left of me is none other than the popular
the popular desirable desirous desired up there in green. Thanks bro How you doing?
I had a mini avalanche of books in my my study just now so Are you frozen bro? No, no
I'm frozen I'm here. No, no you're not. You're sort of I think we got a slow internet connection with you there or something? Yeah, you keep freezing bro. Now shouldn't be Yeah, let's check my back. Hey, you're back now? Yeah.
Now he's frozen again. Is it is it me or definitely
yeah, he's got frozen
let's be some bad internet connection but I think we can hear you all right, bro. So
no, but I'm you're freezing with me? Is it?
It's both of us. Bro. It's passive aggressive behavior from the internet and from the YouTubes is absolute. It's being passive aggressive. It doesn't really want us to talk about this important issue. So what's it doing? It's just stonewalling and you know, actually displaying classic passive aggressive behavior
that's the case of three now. Am I moving now? Am I still frozen? No, no, you're good. You're good. You're moving out bro. Right? So passive aggressive internet knows what's happening today. So abdur-rahim? Well, first and foremost. Walaikum Salam referred to like Iraq as a thank you now that you can see us loud and clear. It's good to see all of you. Here with us. Many frequent Sherine Yes, what starts sharing but you know what? We take it in our stride sister. Sure. And we have to you've got no choice Marsala. But really good to see all of you here, Sister Octavia. Sure in many of you Malahat. I've seen that you're there. Namah. Yes, we're well, thank you. We've got a brother for my
stables Brixton. Good to see you with us. Now, this is a very, very interesting topic and I had to look up. What do we mean by passive aggressive so up to him, I'm gonna give a desk definition that I saw, and what what I read of passive aggressive and you told me what you can discuss this passive aggressive behavior pattern of indirectly expressing negative feelings instead of openly addressing them. There's a disconnect between what a person who exhibits passive aggressive behavior says and what he or she does, for example, someone who engages in passive aggressive behavior might appear to agree, perhaps even enthusiastically with another person's request, rather than complying with the
request. However, he or she might express anger or resentment by failing to follow through or missing deadlines. Yeah, so that's, that's a passive aggressive pneus that I know.
I think that there's passive aggressiveness that I know some of us may have witnessed in cut between couples with marriage
between friends, this example that was given in work, but my question is this up to him as we look at passive aggressiveness?
Is the alternative is the alternative passivity just being passive? Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, I think this is a you know, it's a big question. So when I looked into this, my and I started thinking about it. I like my first initial reaction about passive aggressive baby, there's my first reaction, right? Is that it's an Islamic, it's insincere, right? It's not part of the etiquettes and other that Muslims should display and it seems to go totally against you know, the
generality of what the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam said about ADINA, see her in the sense that every Muslim it wants the best for others, right? And they will treat others in the best way you love for others what you love yourself, and all of these beautiful, I would say even systems of o'clock Indaba. Adam. Yeah, we don't often think of it as being a system but in reality Yeah, the Prophet said, I haven't come except to perfect good manners. So, you know, it is really that's what Islam is about. It's about good manners. And you know, the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, he was very forthright, without being rude. without insulting and abusing people, the Prophet
sallallahu alayhi wa salam would openly correct people. And even if you remember, I don't remember who it was, was it and us or someone who said no one was better at correcting and admonishing them, the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam used to do it, but he did it. And he was very straight. And he was very forthright, as much as he needed to be without being offensive. And I guess that's a huge part of the emotional intelligence of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam that we all must try to emulate. So that was my initial feeling, like passive aggressive people are good, you know, it's a sign of cowardice. It's a sign of bad manners. You know, it's not something and it's not a
way how a Muslim behaved. That's my initial feeling. And then I started thinking, Well, wait a minute, why would people behave like that?
And then I thought, well, you know, maybe people are passive aggressive, because they are disempowered, because they don't feel they are able to
express themselves. And I was thinking, particularly in terms of authority, right? When you have, for example, a very authoritarian society or an increasingly authoritarian, or maybe when you have a minority, right, who, again, we maybe we can talk about this in the context of minorities, right. And this minority could be anything, it could be an ethnic minority, it could be people who are economically, you know, under this provision, it could be class in society, like white people, but lower class white people exhibiting passive aggressive behavior to upper class. And all because they don't feel there is any avenue for them to frankly, express how they feel about something, because
that Frank expression of their sentiments that will be met with aggression, violence, you know, boycotting losing their jobs, so on. So, you know, whatever it is, the point being is that, it seems to me that the flip coin of passive aggressive behavior may be that a person feels disempowered, they don't know how to express their objection to, you know, the mistreatment, that they are feel that they are receiving, except through this way of on the outside, I'm being happy. But what I'm really going to do is undermine you undermine your authority, undermine your requests, because you know, what, you're oppressing me, and I don't know how else to do it. So that was the flip side. And
it's interesting that again, just from my reading, that a lot of people who exhibit passive aggressive behavior, it seems that they just have a problem with expressing their emotions. It's not that they're trying to be awkward or difficult. They just, you know, like, it's just really hard for them to talk about and a lot of men, if suddenly, this is the irony, we have this conversation, are women more passive aggressive than men, but it may be that many men are more passive aggressive, because men generally really find it hard to talk about their emotions, right. And therefore, when they are confronted, especially within the context of marriage, with something to do with their
emotions, they may respond sarcastically refused to talk about it, walk out the conversation, you know, say yeah, yeah, and then just not do it. And all those other things that are symptom of passive aggressive behavior. So I just think it's just generally a super, super interesting subject. But what are your thoughts, bro? I mean, do you think that even under those excuses, I mean, there's lots of things we can understand about why a person behaves that way, but not, but still say, that's not the right way to behave. What do you feel Islamically, bro, is the right way to treat people. And you know, do you think passive aggressive behavior could ever be acceptable? Islamically What do
you think about that? I think that what you've done and I think you've done some in the introduction, you've done a lot of justice to look at both sides of the coin. Abderrahim is o'clock here. And it's really interesting how you've looked at it. And I think that the loafer raised a really important point when we look at where this emanates from, and I've not thought of that before until sister and loafers highlighted this
Yeah, shaytaan was passive aggressive. Okay, these characteristics was such What did he do with Adam and Hauer in which you said, I'm a sincere advisor to you. And we know that he despised. He despised what had happened when when he was made to prostrate this creation that he was made superior, he thought he was superior because of the aspects of his creation. So what did he do when he was when Allah
was about to banish him or basically chastised him for his behavior in the garden? He came to him and said, he swore by Allah. I am your sincere advisor, the emnity in the hatred, he had to do that, okay, was he disempowered? No, no one would dare say to Allah would disempower anyone in that, that that way, or in any way. So I think that that characteristic there, when done willfully This is now coming to addressing the point that you're asked me, when done intentionally, willfully, deliberately, okay, knowing the effects of such behavior, then everything you've said about and what some of the
observers have, viewers have said, of it being a detestable characteristic, and stay away from such people. When someone is deploying that as a tool to marginalized to, to target individuals, then it's a very insidious and ugly characteristic. And as Peter says, and others have just mentioned, narcissists use this. Okay? And it is, in that way, when it's deliberate, it can be a satanic characteristic. Now, if it's unintentional, what do I mean by this, the individual doesn't know that they're doing it is the only recourse they have, or feel this is the only way they can respond. Now we're looking at something totally different, I believe what you were highlighting here, but you
asked me about the you gave the example those simple things, we might be punished for speaking now, those who may lose their jobs or whatever. And so therefore, there's an element of showing one face and then undermining from the other perspective. Nevertheless, this is still an unsavory characteristic, whether intentional or not, it's an unsavory characters that we have. When we're talking about speaking to power or fearing for your job or anything like that, we have the narration, that if you see an evil with the three levels, we have three levels after him. And we often the struggle of us, the alpha males and our females, if there's a thing, we just dies or sort
of scoring, like the one who hates it in their heart. No, that's the weakest one. But that was still an option. The Prophet salallahu Salam gave us an option wasn't to hate it your heart, if can't put your hand on the tongue, it wasn't to hate it in your heart, and therefore undermine and show a passive aggressive nature. It was to hate in your heart while still doing the best while still trying to strive for the best while still trying to exist within that oppressive circumstance or challenging circumstance. So I think that that's one aspect, I would say, from a religious religious perspective that we need to look at. But you're right is a good question. Robbers do it, what you
said I think has validity. I feel that I may have done that when I felt there's nothing more that I could do. When you go quiet. We are less emotionally literate than women. I would say that genuinely, they're emotionally literate. The emotional literacy of men is less from my experience than women. Okay? And when wives articulate, and they criticize, or they're upset, sometimes like I can't think fast enough to actually answer this. So you either want to shut up, you go quiet or you go you go very quiet. And that's not you've been deliberately passive aggressive. It's like I don't know what to say I'm going to listen I'm going to comply or I don't want to hear this or I walk out
as you've said in that example, and some may be delivered to deliberate to shut her down to silence her voice others might be we just don't know how to deal with this.
Yeah, I mean, I guess you know, for me definitely I don't I don't think I'm passive aggressive at all except perhaps with my wife and I was really trying to analyze my behavior and to see you know, like you know, I do know I have you know, within that dynamic of relationships I have emotional issues you know, I I'm you know, I'm I can appear very, very unemotional, very cold. And literally, I think I can I can turn my emotions off, like a switch. You know, my literally you can walk out of the door be 100 miles and miles away for a month and not even think about
my kids or my wife or whatever, literally, I mean, it, maybe it's a blessing that Allah just allows me to just disengage and like, but when I'm with them, I'm totally emotionally involved, right, it's like, but I think that's part of again, my general, I think generally, I'm a person who lives in the moment. So I don't really think a lot about the past that don't worry too much, probably worry more about the future. And I think about the past. But again, I'm very, I'm very much a person who has focused on what I'm experiencing at that at this moment. So maybe it's something to do with that. But again, within the dynamics of you know, of the relationship. Yeah, I definitely have no doubt I
display some dimensions of passive aggressive behavior. But you know, the things you were you the things you are now mentioning yourself, generally, like it comes down down to that men are from Mars, and women are from Venus, you know, is that, you know, what, men are solution, generally, you know, men are solution providers, we, you and me, we have a conversation, and if you're going to ask me for help is because you've done your best to figure this thing out by yourself, right, you reached a place where you couldn't, and now you're reaching out to someone else, who you think is going to help you and you're we're looking to find a solution. Whereas often women when they are
talking, they're just offloading their emotions. And when you start saying, How can I solve this? Right? That's your, that's the man kicking in, right? Like you, because that's how we interact with each other, but she's not interested in you coming up with the solution, she just wants someone to be able to listen, right? And I guess, you being silent at that time, that's not passive aggressive, right? I guess, you know, like, it's just you listening. So it's very difficult. The problem is some of these behaviors, you know, could be interpreted as passive aggressive, when they're not, you know, that's not what's going on at all. And I think we have to go back to what passive aggressive
is about it's like, it's when you want to show aggression, that's what it really comes down to, you do not like someone or something that person is doing, or you don't like the way that you are being treated, or you don't like the emotional, psychological, or even physical atmosphere, you know, what's going on around you. But the way you deal with it, instead of confronting with it and talking about it, and you know, having a discussion, you know, what you do is you outwardly agree? Oh, yeah, this is fantastic, right? But inwardly, you're doing everything to undermine that happening, you won't cooperate, you won't do anything to change the situation, right? You may even do something. So
in fact, in reality, the reality of your behavior is aggressive. I mean, that was so profound of the system to point out that che tarns behavior is pure, passive aggressive, but bro, I want to take you back to what you said about you know, shaytaan Allah and look, I would say that anyone is going to feel powerless in front of Allah. Right? Because so how Allah like what, but the beautiful thing is that Allah empowers us, right? Even Subhan Allah, even when it comes to our relationship with Him, He empowers us because shaytaan says, What's wrong with you? shaytaan right, he gives him the chance right? To express himself he gives them the opportunity to explain what's going on and to change and
repent and get fixed and he doesn't say look, Allah, I've got this I really suffering. Yeah, you created this thing. And I thought I was your special one. And I don't feel like that whatever it was, whatever the dynamic No, he just becomes arrogance. Right. Right. And then yeah, so I think it's that I mean, in a sense of person would feel powerless in front of a lot but for sure. It must have been that deep down inside he wanted to be like more like a lie. Maybe you wanted to stop for a lot. He wants to be worshipped Yeah. Isn't it really that's what she can't look at very very.
And the fact of his arrogance that he's you know, like really what shaytan is saying is I know better than you Allah that's what it's stuff like
that you've made exactly what you know what you're coming back to I think an Elisa raised a point and thank you does off like it and Elisa how she was made to feel when a brother at work acted passively aggressive to aggressively to her. And it was such she felt so and this is key her words here. She felt so emotionally abused, and we have to look at this emotional abuse that she resigned from the job. And if someone's doing that again, deliberately and you can imagine what that looks like, okay, someone and the one of the worst aspects and I dare say we've been guilty of it to some extent in the past, intentionally or not. And unfortunately, a lot of brothers do this with their
wives. A lot of brothers doing this with their sisters and females.
So, in that, using the deen passively aggressively by bringing our verses of the Quran, bring it Hadith and saying, Well, it's not me saying this is a law says and you have it's true that it's in the Quran is true, is it from the lips of the Prophet salallahu salam from your intention is not to advise and correct. Your intention is to harm and malign and make that individual feel bad about themselves. And your intention is to bring them to the way that you want. But you're using the dean to do it in such a nefarious way. And then we've got that sounds exactly like her sister, Lisa, for mentioning that and sharing that with Bill and also went on to say about, he goes quiet, like you
mentioned, we go quiet. Can I just pick up on this? Can I just pick up on that? Before we move on to another one? Because I think it's a bit of a discussion, right? Yeah, I think again, this is a classic example the sister being, you know, a Nisa suffering from this passive aggressive behavior from a Muslim man at work. This is a classic example. Right? Now, what we have is a person who, that I'm guessing, right, without Cisco and not, you know, I don't want to put something in your head against another Muslim. Right. But I'm just saying generally, yeah, this could be a classic example of somebody who feels a lot of resentment. Because culturally,
even like you said, of the hot bro, they may feel they have a religious justification for this. Women shouldn't be working, let alone there's a woman in the workplace with me, let alone she's in authority over me. Yeah. Can you imagine add that, like she's, you know, she's my line manager, that would make it even worse, you know, this woman should be at home having babies cooking, and you know, making sure parties or whatever, right, and this is maybe what that person is thinking and that what person is believing. However, obviously, if this is in the west, to any way, shape, or form expressed that type of belief system would get him to lose his job, right? He would lose his
job, right? That will be discrimination, that will be totally acceptable. So then how is he going to Mass manifest his aggression? Because that's what he's feeling aggression towards that person. He's going to manifest that aggression. Not by openly saying, Listen, sister, you shouldn't be here, go back to your home and have babies and cook biryani for your husband. Right? He's not going to say that. What he's going to say what he's going to do is, excuse me, could you do this? That, you know, you'll always do that? Yeah, yeah, sure. Sure. Of course, I'll do that I'm the perfect employee and not do it. Right, right. Because that's his way of saying, You shouldn't even be here. Right. And
the job you left the job and you just made him should have helped him by sticking around. Because you're like, you know, like the Prophet said, help your brother, whether he's the oppressor or the oppressed. It's not that easy. abdur-rahim. Yeah, no, no, I'm not saying I make the
point. He was if he was Elise's boss, and we know this, whether it's a Muslim or non Muslim, and because he did not get attention, or was unable to flirt, or unable to do certain, so there's gonna be that as well. But then there came the yes as No, I'm just alluding to that now. Masala,
then the passive aggressive behavior came because he didn't get the attention, or what he wanted to achieve with her or any other woman in that regard. So I think he's had one thing wrong. Let me wait. Let's just pause here, right? Instead of talking about problems, how do you think this brother should have you know, like, we don't know the brother, right? But let's let's just take the scenario. Maybe he fancied a Nissa. Or maybe it was the case he didn't, you know, it wasn't a fancy thing. But you know, like, maybe it was just like I said he had some cultural baggage. How should he deal with it? What do you think is the right way? Good, good point. Let's add to that as well. Maybe
he was using religion.
idealistically in a misogynist, misogynistic manner as well, because that will cover that. So
what right good because for me, I can identify with that when being overzealous in my early stages. And having this understanding of the role of the man and the woman very binary. And then learning as we have done the is not as binary as some would want it to be. And maybe speaking in a similar way, but not being passive aggressive, but there's so like, okay, during the various things that you have, you've described, now, what needs to happen, I think, when we're in the workforce, when in any scenario, we have to check ourselves, our self worth, or self esteem, and we've got to be comfortable with who we are what we are, where we
Ah, and again when it comes to externally referencing, if we still feel threatened, because we're looking at an individual, female counterpart at work, looking at our wives, mentions being made here by sisters that men don't like vocal, articulate women, actually, I'd love them to be honest with you. That's, that's my, that's my generalizing, they could drive you crazy. And I know, I've been crazy, but intellectually astute
women, masha Allah, may Allah bless all of them. But what I'd say is that we need to be within ourselves comfortable with ourselves. Because if we're not, and we're relying on external factors to validate us, then we are going to start acting passively aggressive in various ways. Number one, let's get to some solutions, bro. So like, first of all, you're saying that, if you have these feelings, number one thing you should do is check yourself to see, you know, like, Are you seeking validation from external things? Right, so that's point number one. So what else are you going to do? How would like what I'm really asking is, bro, how do you what is your advice for someone to
deal with a Nissa? If this person is exhibiting passive aggressive, okay, so, Advice number one is check yourself look inside yourself, what you feeling? Why you feeling? So what else? How else can you go about this? You know,
you know, behaving in, you know, in the right way? How are you going to, you know, how are you? How are you going to channel that aggression, and
we don't need to call it aggression. But that's just yeah, she's right. He needs to, she needs to not need something, if it is a female, they need to
come to terms with the discomfort they're feeling towards an individual. Yeah, and approach them with that and explain if it's to do with the individual explained, but also to say, this may be my problem. I have my problem. This is a church, and I want to work with you together. So that I don't do this. I don't want to be showing one thing, and then I'm doing something to undermine our relationship or something. Behind the scenes. We need to go to that person. We need to be honest with them and ourselves. Yeah. Absolutely, bro, just talking to her. And that's what I wanted to hear. But obviously, your opinion is whatever it is, it's great. You know, but that's exactly what I
would have. I echo that totally just I think the thing is, it's just about being honest. Right? And finding a way obviously finding a nice way or a may may it may never be nice and it may never be a pleasant conversation, right? Because not for you emotionally or for the person you are, you know dealing with, but it's way better than exhibiting passive aggressive behavior, which we found out is actually so Pamela's shape tonic behavior. Yeah, it really is che tonic behavior. And very, in a sense, I do feel very immature, very and Islamic. Very contrary to the spirit of Naseeha and sincerity and a class and it's disingenuous, you know, right. I mean, that's the thing. Islam lays
such an emphasis on honesty, right? Yes. On Being honest and being truthful. And you know, the Prophet said, those deceptive ones are not from amongst us, people who are deceiving. They're not from us, doesn't mean you're a Kaffir. But it's you're not from the people of sunnah. You're not from the people close to the Prophet and his mannerisms, right? This is not how a Muslim should be. Right? We should be overflowing with love and sincerity and concern, and why in the best for people. So if that's how you really feel right, you don't need to be angry about it. I mean, you know, maybe you can have a discussion with a person about your feelings and your attitudes and your beliefs and,
and obviously, within the context of you understand your position in terms of employment law, and whatever you frame it within all of that. And you have to be professional, being professional means you have to do your job if you don't like it, go to some other place where you can shave, you know, that accommodates your, what prejudices were, or whatever, they don't even call it prejudice, maybe you're right, you know, but you know, you need to find a place where you know, that's going to make you happy, not make
her job, not sticking with what you have said about the lessons to be learned. And we also have other fantastic stories in the Quran and examples. We saw a whole family of almost the whole family, the brothers of Yusuf alayhi salam, passive aggressiveness look at where it led to look at what a coup
was the the split between the brothers and the father Yaqoob and Yusuf and what use have endured as a result of passive aggressiveness, and even at the end when they came in return for Benny Amin, and they still said they still slighted him. But he remained quiet on that. But it also Look, we're not like that, but look at it. This is like honestly, this is amazing. This is
mashallah use of forgave them by
decades of what they the results of what they had caught him and look at where he ended up compared to where they were, look how Allah elevated him. So those those of us who are recipients of passive aggressive behavior, we have the story of the lesson of Yusuf alayhi salam to learn patience, Saba, fortitude, attachment to Allah trust. In the end, Allah will elevate us and protect us, and maybe bring those who had that passive aggressiveness towards us closer, or remove them from us completely. So it's really, really important that we look at that. And but what we mustn't do, though, I'm doing because you mentioned something in the in the beginning, which is really
important. Yeah, those of us who go quiet, those of us who are not emotionally literate, I don't hold myself to be highly emotionally literate.
My wife, my ex wives, could drive me crazy. And I wouldn't know I'd say, right, I'm just going to go quiet. Other than that, I'll have an outburst. I walk out, I'll do all the things that us men do. And then going quiet, you're being told you're being passive aggressive, and we just don't know what to do. And in the societies that we're living in now, the Western society, these are trigger words that are used against us. They're weaponized, weaponized, and it was weaponized on the part of the one saying, this is being done to me. And society then jumps in gaslighting comes, the terminologies then come in, they exist. But when you put them all together, it paints that individual as a demon.
Maybe they're not a demon, maybe they're emotionally illiterate. And they need help in that way. If they are demons in that particular way, then we have examples of how we can address them, how we can confront how we can withdraw. Let's be clear, though, the recipient of passive aggressiveness is very unpleasant, and your rights are in conflict. I think that's something really important I want to Subhanallah because I only want to say it because it's in my mind, and if I don't say it now, right.
I here's what I'm going to throw out to everybody and to you Bravo, Huck, right, that actually I here's my now you can, I'm quite happy for you to tear me down. And anyone who's listening or I put your comments, right, and tell me if I'm if I've got it wrong. Yeah. I actually think that sometimes it's correct, to be passive aggressive, right. And it's justified. And it's right. Yeah. And so let me contend, contrary to what all of you have said, that Prophet Yusuf alayhi salam also display display passive aggressive behavior, right. And this is to prove that it's not necessarily negative. Why? Because he was nice to his brothers. He gave them extra grain he gave them you know, whatever.
He said, Go on your way. Right? I'll bring this brother back with you. And all the time he was plotting against them. Now. That's all that is all classic, passive aggressive behavior. And he's not powerless, right? In the sense that he's, you know, he's the Malik. He's the he's the He's got the power right there. Right. So on the surface has been very nice to his brothers. He doesn't even let them know that he's his brothers. Right. And he's doing all of these nice things to them. Yeah, all the time. What is he doing? He is devising a, you know, you know, a scheme and I don't mean it in a bad way. Because I'm saying that my point being is that No, Allah says they plot and they plan
on Allah is the best of planners, Allah is the best plotters. So the point being is that it's not always bad, passive aggressive behavior, right? It's like anything, a lot of it depends upon the intention. It depends how it is being used. It depends for what purpose and for what intent is being deployed. Right. Surely that has to be a factor to be taken into account because ultimately, at the end of the day, you CIFS only intention was to bring his brothers back to the right way. Yeah. To open their eyes to wake them up to make them understand. Yeah. And sometimes that's it that that may be. And this goes back to the sort of things that I like, like, I don't, I don't behave in a passive
aggressive way with my wife because I just want to be awkward, right? If I do it, for me, a lot of the time it's because I've
try to engage I've tried to explain, right? I've tried all the other ways of communication, and they're not working. And I'm not going to be beating my head against the wall, right, smashing my brains out, trying to convince a person of something. Right. So what do I have to resort to? I think that's perfectly reasonable at that time to resort to something which that person may actually understand a lot better. I mean, to be honest, the moment I If I get angry with my voice and raise my voice, my wife and this and that, she just says, Yeah, go on. I'm not afraid of you. Right? My dad used to beat me black and blue. Do you think I'm afraid? Not the stuff, guys, I never handily
learned touch my wife. Never. Right? I'm just saying she liked the moment she sees me sort of getting a bit sort of, you know, like, a man might get a bit aggressive. She does. She's not afraid. It's like, Yeah, whatever.
It's like, so it doesn't work with her. Right? So sometimes you have to understand as well with passive aggressive people. Sometimes what works is the systems they themselves have employed, is it unfair, abusive, to use what might be considered to be passive aggressive behavior in order to deal with his brothers who, as you said, were also passive aggressive? I don't know. That's my that's my thoughts on it.
I don't think it's necessarily negative, which sort of comes back to where we you know, where the first question I asked right, in in the case of disempowerment, is it wrong to be and by the way, I wanted to bring it back on bohart Right, this is another thing I forgot. In the converse. conversation goes right. Very quickly, I'm going to insert this
that a brother was asking me questions recently about you know, a being the Emir and you know, this whole thing about the rulers and what if the rulers are far second they're disobeying Allah right? So obviously, I gave him the Hadith about obey your emir, you know, even if he beats your back and takes your property and this and now, but when but you don't obey Him and disobedience to Allah, right? And more than that, is that outwardly you comply? Outwardly you comply to the Emir? Right? But you do not agree and you do not comply? Right? And it's just enough for yourself to remove yourself and distance yourself from that person's and not you are not allowed as a Muslim, right? To
support wrongdoing and evil, right through if there was a Muslim ruler in a Muslim land who's trying to you know, sell alcohol and start parties and raves and this and that, you are not allowed to help in that you are not allowed to set up the sound system, you are not allowed to distribute the leaflets or, you know, or print them any type of that behavior is haram. Right? Let alone if you're a scholar giving a fatwa stuff for Allah in favor of it. Right? Right. So you could say, Well, that's all passive aggressive, right? Right. What are you going to do if you're going to be you know, carted off to prison and put in prison for six months, and your family is not going to know
what's going to happen to you? Right? What how do you deal with that? And so that's my question. Is it really always bad to exhibit passive aggressive behavior? Isn't it sometimes that that's all you can do? That's what I put to you, bro. So two things. That's fascinating. Yes, Yusef was was not their use of passive aggressive. And also in the case of the ruler, and you know, how do you behave when he's a tyrant or a wrongdoer? Or spreading evil? I wouldn't place Joseph lucky. I think this is fascinating. I wouldn't place use this behavior in the passive aggressive, aggressive realm, and just reach just previously previously, one of view as mentioned, should we be putting passive
aggressiveness on a scale on a spectrum? Which is a very good question, Jenna Dean, She's awful. Okay, for that very good question. Now, passive aggressiveness is showing that face of compliance and warmth and a green
which is why you said it to his brothers. Okay. Okay. But the planning and the plotting, and the behavior is that for an outcome that is not constructive, is not positive. It's either to harm that individual, the organization, the group, okay? And to make yourself not to put placed yourself above them, because passive aggressive individuals cannot do that by virtue of the positions that they're in, but to sashay to make yourself feel better use of I'm not sure that's necessarily Sorry, bro to interrupt. I don't think that's necessarily a condition of passive aggressive behavior. I think that's an interpretation of the negative aspects of power. I mean, my proposition is, as a system as
a sort of, like, if you take it in its raw form. Yeah. That outwardly you are passive. And maybe the word aggressive is problematic. Yeah. Okay. So if you said passive reformative Yeah. Because maybe in the mind of any person who is
Displaying passive aggressive behavior.
They don't they're not doing it to be difficult. So let's talk to let's talk about Nilufer. For it, was it Nilufer? Yeah, it was Nilufer. Maybe the brother in his own mind, and Isa and the nisa sorry, Aneesa. Yeah. Maybe the brother in his own mind, I'm not justifying his behavior stuff for a lot. But I'm saying is on mine. He thought while I'm, you know, like you said, you're self admitted of the hawk. Back in your earlier days. Yeah. When you were sort of should eat and this and that. What is this woman doing in the workplace? She should be at home, right? I'm going to help her get back to where she needs to be. Right now. Obviously, I can't be open about this, but and your intentions
are all sincere and good. Right? You didn't? You weren't a bad person back then, bro. I don't think you will. But I don't think you ever intended for a person if you knew that you wouldn't have intended bad. Now in retrospect. Now, you may say oh, yeah, okay, that was a bit misguided, right in the context of us living in the West, but still, right, your intention, right was to do something that was good. But we'd still identify that as passive. And maybe the problem is in the aggressive, though, use the one.
The one key factor that I would say why is I believe it's encountering respectfully what you said one key factor is where's problematic. Yusuf Alayhi. Salam was a messenger of Allah and Nabi, and he was, what he was doing was based upon revelation. That's a clear and now I've gone I'll tell you why that demarcates him from the passive aggressive categorization that we're talking about now, because we're going to say that about use of a slum that we must say the same about Ibrahim alayhi salam, when he was with his people. Yeah.
And he said, This is my Lord. And then he said, I hate those which sets this
passive aggressive, not
be used as passive aggressive, because people were with him. They were with him at this particular point. And he was saying this to his people will show.
Damage to idols. You could call that the ultimate passive aggressive No, no.
No, no, I don't think I don't think you go back to the definition of passive aggressive. That's almost the opposite of it. That I'm doing. But he didn't he did not think about it. You're saying that? Yeah. He did not admit to this. He attributed it and posed a question. Yeah, bro. That's different. So bro, look, that's very good. Let me finish up very well, I think it's done. I'll tell you why. It's simply it's
the same reason why
they were up on the revolution. And we kept putting them.
At the end of the day, the end of the day, it's still even, that's fine. I agree with you. But it's still a model for our behavior, whether it's based on revelation or not, because otherwise, what you're gonna say, we can't do anything because every baby, we need revelation. At the end of the day, bro. At the end of the day, the prophets are a model for us to behavior for our for our behavior, right? They give us a paradigm through which to act in the world, right? That's why Allah sent human beings through to the prophets, right? So I agree with you. And that makes it even more powerful. That that it shows that it is an acceptable way to behave, if it's based on revelation
means it's an acceptable way to behave. So I think what we're getting stuck on here is the presumption that passive aggressive is necessarily a negative behavior pattern, right? And what I'm all I'm trying to do is saying no, I don't think like for example, I think within context, it's not. So for example, plotting and planning, generally would say, plotting and planning, that's not good, right? However, Allah says that he is the best of plotters, and although in English, who translate is the best of planners, actually, in Arabic, it's the same word. He's the best the plotters, but Allah only plots against those people who are plotting, right? You understand? If people are
plotting and planning Allah deals with them in a way that is deserving for those people. Right. And so that was my proposition, it is that it's possible. And again, it comes down to your intention and your purpose. And I think I think that's the thing going back to your point, which is very valid, right? When a person is displaying passive aggressive behavior, out of narcissism out of ego, right? out of, you know, whatever it may be, like shaytaan, their self inflated opinion of themselves, whatever it may be, right? Absolutely. That's wrong. And that's willful or if you're, or if you're displaying passive aggressive behavior to people who are very open to you being having a frank
conversation, like there's nothing preventing, like shaitan Allah even said to him, what's wrong?
What's wrong with you? Right? You know, like, it's not like Allah just shut him up and didn't give shaitana an opportunity to express himself and talk about his problems. You understand? So I think, again, passive aggressive behavior in the context of when there's no reason for it. We can see all when it's motivated by ego or by pride or by whatever, right or just bad. Yeah, I think I think no, I agree. I think the understand this is fascinating. And I think we'd have to tease out on look more on the examples given regarding the prophets. I think that that's that's something and but I think it would then come back to what Jenna highlighted, is there a spectrum? And then more than likely is
based on what you're discussing and highlighting? Clearly that's on the spectrum. So if it's within the
contextualization that you've given with the intention, and why the person doing it with nefarious
means, like we saw with the brothers of use, for example, the Laden's son, and then I say, yes,
that type of blameworthy. Passive aggressiveness is something that should not be
accepted, acknowledged, which should it must be acknowledged, because it's there, but it should not be accepted. It's unacceptable, and it should always be challenged. And I would also say, because we you asked me a very good question about solutions. Also, if we're aware of that passive aggressive, aggressive behavior, or we suspect there is the negative passive aggressive behavior, we need to approach the individual, not necessarily confront them, but to speak to them and address and say, These examples are to me of passive aggressiveness. Is there something you want to discuss? Is there something that you are uncomfortable about as it relates to myself? We those of us who are receiving
that need to also be proactive in? I won't say confront because one of the participants mentioned Yes, sometimes confrontation can exacerbate the problem. Sometimes it can end the problem, but I know that we need to look at the environment. Let's just take the example. Right on the flip the whole, like the other end of the spectrum, let's look at the extreme other end of the spectrum violence. Yeah, right. I'm sure we would all agree that violence is almost always unacceptable, right? You should never be violent, you should never kill someone, you should never behave towards them aggressively. You should never beat someone up. Right? We agree with that. Right? However,
clearly from the Quran, there are times when violence is not only justified but obligated, right, you have to do it. Right and not sometimes not responding. Yeah, is actually itself evil. Right, because evil will only get worse. So I think that Allah, you know, gives the criterion that you know, that the meaning of what the Quran says as far as I know, and some scholars have used this to argue against the idea of offensive jihad, all jihad is defensive, is because Allah says he does not love the aggressor, right? And what Allah loves and what Allah doesn't love, it's not something that can be abrogated, you know, because it's the Allah will never love an aggressor, you can't abrogate,
you know, a ruling can be abrogated, you know, drinking alcohol and or, you know, water or not, or whatever it may be right, those rulings can be abrogated, but about things that Allah loves, in terms of characteristics or things that Allah hates, in terms of characteristics, they are not abrogated, they are sitting in a sense fixed. So some of you use this to, to, you know, make the point that every, you know, every,
you know, I don't know what your thoughts were, or the battle or every vote, you know, encounter that a Muslim state has, with, you know, those who oppose it or whatever, they have to be defensive in some way, shape or form. Right. So the point is that that's my point is that violence, we generally considered will agree universally, violence is bad, and to be avoided almost at all costs, but sometimes respond with violence. And sometimes it's the only way and sometimes it's wrong not to respond. Why would that not be the same? Exactly the same with passive aggressive behavior? Why not? Right, we can agree that generally, it's not the best way to bake. But sometimes that's the way you
have to deal with things. That's the proposition I will put, you can just look
this enough at another fascinating point, which I think the example you've given, and we spoke about this last week. And with regards to anger, okay, justified same thing. Yeah. So I can't I can't argue against
what you said. And I think it's very interesting because we're
We were looking at discussing this. And I want everyone to know, we don't sit here and come to our conclusions. We
we say, what's the topic? What we're very much on the spur wasn't?
Every, all of these shows were on the spur. Mashallah. And that's why I love the discussions. But I think looking at what you've said in the examples and the way you've posed them, I'm thinking, Hmm, so there is a passive aggressiveness that, in some circumstances is positive, based on what we've discussed, discussing. Overwhelmingly, I would suggest it's not but like you said, in the same with with violence with it again, overwhelmingly, we abhor violence of all sorts.
But there are exceptions to the rule. And I think that we all need to look at many of us, maybe you fall okay, this is going to be about passive aggressiveness. Everyone's going to agree it's going to be a carte blanche is bad, everyone should leave it. Yes, we should on the whole, but as Abdur Rahim is highlighting, I think it's really important that you brought this out like this and and pose these questions. Are there exceptions to the rule? And if there are exceptions to rule, the rule in these other
often abhorrent acts and characteristics, then surely there's exceptions to them? Have they been listened
to and something I really want to say, because I think it's a good place to end. But this is my sort of, unless, unless we get really carried away again. But so this is my last sort of comment that I want to I want to say and I think it's really important. Brothers and sisters, I really think it's important to always think, you know, most of the time 99% Like, let's just say, always, try and think the best of people try and make excuses for people, right? Don't think about that Muslim brother, who was passive aggressive in the office and got
our sister exam certified. So bear with names.
And ECF, who got a nice of fire, let's not think, Oh, he's a sheet of fire. She resigned she Yeah, she resigned. Yeah, I mean, like, forced her out. Like, our temptation is to think what a shaytaan. Right, but actually, we should think, make excuses for the brother, right? Maybe he was emotional. Maybe he has. I mean, maybe he has problems expressing his emotions. Maybe he had good intentions, but was misdirected in the way that he bathed them. And I think this is really, really important. And that's why when we were when we were coming up with the title for this whole discussion. Yeah, I always think I always try to think is, is passive aggressive behavior, like, Okay, that looks really
bad. But maybe some people do it because they don't know what else to do. Right? And maybe they're not really, really bad people, maybe some of them just respond in a bad way, because they just just don't know, or they just haven't got the emotional intelligence to be able to respond in a good way. Right. And I think that, you know, obviously, we we try to make excuses for people, we try to think the best of people and we try to, you know, be positive and help people rather than create a lot of negativity. On the other hand, that doesn't, you know, mean that we are blind to complete sort of, you know, narcissism and egoistic you know, you know, what you call it?
Someone who loves power? Dig right. I know, but what do you call it? What do you call it?
Not a kleptomaniac. Someone who loves stealing what's a person who
I can't, personally is always after power. Come on, one of the commenters megalomaniacal that's it. Yeah.
Believe me, you can get a megalomaniac in an office of four people. You can have someone who's a flippin.
You see with traffic wardens, literally a person.
And then literally megalomania. They just lost with the little little twitchy little bit up, you saw that with these supermarket attendants with face masks. Right literally, like, honestly give a person a little bit of power and flippy might as well grow a mustache and have a swastika on his head.
And then also, we see that there can be husbands who have that the husband who uses the dean to suppress his wife. Yeah. And that power and he's never been able to do that before. But he feels this sense of it's not even empowerment is cowardice, where he feels I can do this, you on the Hadith says not to go out of the home. And you take that context that was from yesteryear, in a different societal context. And it's happened, it was done in the 90s. That was the understanding. And I'm not saying that that was done with an evil intent. During that time. I think there was a naivety but to now we've got a comprehensive understanding of all these things to do that now. Okay,
without a context is the individual
powermat, the mother, or who who's so strict with her children enjoying rationing their food or when they eat, and things like this. So these are areas where these things can creep in. And we may convince ourselves that this is from a good intention. But in reality, just like we said, When anger, just like we said with other things, people who do this deliberately in these ways, are in actuality, weak. And we've got to realize that when that's been done, or displayed towards us, when that negative I'm gonna say the positive versus passive aggressiveness, based on what upbringing was, is as almost convinced me to in that way, but there's the negative passive aggressiveness in
the these individuals are weak. And that's why we need to look at ourselves, these individuals, they are unable to articulate themselves sincerely, a class is a key component of this, Deen. And so there's a cowardice among them, there's a weakness among them. And we shouldn't reflect that weakness in the way that we respond, defeated, dejected, it happens emotionally abused. And an ISA felt that way. And I wanted to highlight that within these two because we've all felt that we've got it from our wives, ex wives from ex husband, and you feel totally you do feel disempowered, you feel there's no way I can get around this what they're doing because it's intangible. Because if I
highlight it, they will say, What are you talking about? No, you're sitting on the mat, you're imagining things. And then that starts playing on your mental health. Because the moment that you confront such individuals doing that in the workforce, for example, then they deny it, and they bring others in passive aggressiveness, and they will then say, oh, that's imagining these things. Yeah. Well, that's, that's,
yeah, you can't bring an example. Because by virtue of its nature, passive aggressiveness doesn't bring anything tangible for you to hold on to. And this is a very interesting thing. Well, that I read is that people who display
people who display
passive aggressive behavior, when you confront them with it, often that actually makes them more passive aggressive, because they actually hate being confronted, you know, with their emotions, which is really really, you know, really, really interesting. I mean, honestly, bro, this is such a fascinating subject. And the more we talk about it, the more examples you know, I think about but I just wanted to mention cuz I think it's useful for everyone is like, I'm thinking even about myself going back to that conversation is passive aggressive behavior was bad. And I'll be honest, right? Again, this the if I think about, you know, my dynamic between me and my wife, the stuff that really
hits me the hardest, right, that really hits me is actually when she displays when she's passive aggressive towards me, right? So when she's stonewalling me, for example, and like only says salaam aleikum, you know, for three days, and those are like, you know, that's it, she won't talk to me. Oh, my God, that gets me. So that's when I'm apologizing when I haven't even done anything wrong. Like, I know, I'm, I know that I didn't do anything wrong, but I'm still apologizing. And possibly, because maybe I'm passive aggressive myself. And I understand that behavior. I you know, I respond to it. Because I, I feel it, you know, like really strongly, much more than perhaps I would, you
know, respond well to someone expressing and talking things through with me, I don't know. So, Allahu Allah. And, you know, at the end of the day, I'm the same. Like, I think, you know, I, again, intention does have something to do with it. If you're trying to work things out, and you're trying to, you know, if you're trying to express yourself, but not because you want to hurt another person, right? Because you want things to work out and you want things to be better. And, you know, you, you know, and those things are important to do. I do think that intention has a lot to do with it. And I think people understand different things. And you know, Abdullah heartbroke very well, some people
understand the good slap and other people, you know.
And I think that
that's not referring to waves we're talking No, absolutely. I'm talking about on the street. Yeah, I'm talking about on the street. There's some people respond way better to, you know, forth. I'm not going to talk to you for a day. You understand. And you know, it's very interesting that about the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam that it was just enough for people to see on his face that he was not happy. And that's because they loved him so much. Right? They love the Prophet so much that just seeing the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa salam disturbed, yeah, was enough. Right, you know, for them to sort of, you know, that was enough. Right. But
you've mentioned a key point there and I think I think the sisters need to hear this, the non Muslim female view
was nice to hear this. What you said about the apologizing sisters be clear up there have Rahim is a very strong minded character like myself. But when the what you described about his wife and I'll say this about my wife and my ex wives and everything when I was imploring marriage, it got to the stage abdur-rahim That if I came in and saw that they were unhappy or whatever, and I'm not saying that we're being passive aggressive, I would dare say, they were to some extent, I would walk in. And immediately I'd question What have I done? What have I done? And is it me? That's what I started doing. It must be me, because they're behaving this way. And I was doing that sincerely, because I
wanted to rectify whatever the problem was. Now, do some people, men or women, if the wife is, well, what, what's wrong? Have I done something wrong? Are you dissatisfied with something, and the partner can take advantage of that, okay? It may not be the individual, they may be feeling bad in themselves, they may have issues within themselves. But when they see that the partner is coming to them, like I would come to my wife, my ex wives or my wife, my wife is fantastic, mashallah for nearly 40 years and Hamdulillah, but when I would come to them, and that behavior will perpetuate psychologically, you wrack your brain.
And then you move up, behave this way, I'm moving this well, probably that way. And it's almost
out of love that you're doing that. But what we're doing is you're eating yourself up in Seattle. And it's interesting that you're saying, because one of the things I read is that a lot of passive aggressive behavior in a marriage is a sign of a failing relationship. It's like literally, it shows that the relationship is breaking down. And most relationships where there's a lot of passive aggressive behavior, it ends in divorce a lot of marriages where it is, and you're right, because how much can you take? How much can you take it wrong, if you're gonna walk through the door, and like, that's how you're feeling the minute you how much you got to put up with that not
everyone wants a happy life, a peaceful life, right? Like, seriously, you know, you know what the sad thing is in the society that we come from,
when it's the, and I've seen this with the brothers have counseled relationships I've had to get involved in when the female goes out to society. And she's been the one displaying passive aggressive behavior throughout which the husband is emotionally illiterate to put his finger upon. And then she accuses him of that, and gaslighting and all these trigger words, then the society, the police, the social services, the law, fall heavily in favor of the woman,
heavily in favor of the woman, I've witnessed it in cases, I've had to go to court and brothers, I've even had, in the rare case, occasion, had to go to court on behalf of British sister whose husband was from North Africa. And he was doing the same thing to her because she was becoming more religious. And he was not religious. And he will say she's turned into a fanatic and he was you. So when that's done, and the law and the system falls behind, and support the individual who's doing it, but he or she's accusing the other partner, the other spouse of being that is devastating, and it takes you psychologically to overcome such apparatus that your ex wife, your ex husband, existing
husband, existing wife is using against you. So we've got to be very, very careful again, two things that bring no conclusion from one is what I've said, we need to equip ourselves by looking inwardly reflecting and not seeking out validation. So if passive aggressiveness has been done to us, we are able to see it for what it is and address it and basically protect ourselves knowing that this was done, done to use a police alum, who's a greater than all of us is something that was done shaitan is one implemented that against Adam Alayhis Salam. And we saw the result of that in the end, and that the one display in that negative destructive passive aggressiveness will not win in the end,
will not win in the end. So we've got to really equip ourselves with the necessary religious and emotional tools to elite doesn't mean it's going to become easy. And the second thing, when we see that happening, if we are able to go and address it to the individual with the individual, we should do that. And if it's individual who believes they're not doing it, but they think hold on my relationship with this individual is going wrong. We should go after him. Do you feel that I'm being passive aggressive towards you? Yeah, bro. They may not know what that means. So I mean, they've explained what do you think I'll be negative am I am I showing you one particular face but you see
that I'm doing something different that I'm
The mind that our relationship with undermines what we're doing together, we can approach it in that way. And at least it opens up that dialogue. And if the individual is doing it that we've approached, or if he's coming to us and he is or she is doing it, we can talk about how we can work together to move away from that passive aggressiveness. If you're confident in approaching someone who is doing it. If they deny it, if they are doing at least they know that you're aware. And that's enough. Yeah, absolutely, bro. I think that's a great place to leave it on. It's been as usual a fascinating discussion just get better a better bro. I hope I hope our viewers feel the same way
inshallah Yeah, I mean, you know, what, if it's just you and me talking and our audience, commenting, I think the benefit of our conversation, and even the comments, mashallah, the comments have been
amazing as our conversation together because it's just
opened our eyes to you know, shaytaan and then you mentioned the story of Youssef and the stuff I didn't even cross my mind. So, thanks so much. May Allah bless all of you who have contributed. It's just absolutely brilliant. And I think you know, my final word is, it just shows the importance of us all working on our ego working on our knifes and learning good manners and develop it's hard work. It is hard work, right?
And but it's so important, and we don't give it enough time. We don't give it an effort. Yeah, we're going to get together remember that there's going to be a day when we get together, we're going to have a session in a hole in a place and all of you, we're going to be together seeing each other and I will still use the term vibing together. This is I look forward to that day. Insha Allah, which is aka is a pleasure, bro until next week in sha Allah and I've already got by the way, I've already got a topic in mind for next week. Then we will discuss that and we will go for I think it's going to be amazing as well in sha Allah does not come with luck everyone. Rahim Salam aleikum wa
wa rahmatullahi wa Monica.