Naima B. Robert – Muslims and Marriage Apps, Expectations and Haram Love Stories TMC, E7
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Welcome to the marriage conversation with Naima b
Robert. And tonight, my guest is
somebody whose ideas I found profoundly interesting. His
style is a little bit provocative,
but it's okay. It's all good. We can
roll with it all. Brother Nasir Al Amin.
Assalamu alaikum.
Welcome to the show.
Tell us a little bit about what you
do.
So,
professionally, I'm a trained social worker counselor.
I work in this space as a behavioral
coach. I teach,
brothers and sisters how to understand and control
their emotions.
Work from a CBT modality,
that obviously I learned in graduate school and
professional training,
postgraduate school.
And that's what I do. I help, couples
and
and brothers and and mainly sisters. Ironically, my
my client base is,
about
95,
98%
sisters from
UK, the States, Canada,
and here in the village.
Mhmm.
Mhmm.
I first came across your work, because you
had commented on some videos that were out
there where we were having some rather heated
discussions. And,
then, you know, I was able to see
the kind of information that you were putting
out there and the kind of conversations that
you've been having or trying to have
in the space
of muslims today and marriage.
I think my first question to you really
is,
what are
we sisters not getting
about what brothers really want? Do you think
there's a disconnect there? What's happening?
Yeah. There's there's definitely a disconnect, and there's
a disconnect.
So I would say that there's a disconnect
because sisters lead with their emotions.
And that's that's not that's not necessarily
a
a a bad thing. Right?
It's just when you lead with unhelpful emotions,
it becomes problematic.
So for example, leading with
conditional self acceptance.
Right? That I need
something external from me for me to feel
valid and accepted.
And, thus, I go into the
process of looking for a partner,
from that space,
from that neediness. Right?
Mhmm. And that can dictate how you maneuver
on a dating app. Right? Mhmm. So,
you know, so for example, going on the
dating app,
a sister
made a post the other day, and and
she was asking for advice,
in terms of getting back out on the
dating month after being,
divorced.
And the advice I gave her was to
make sure you go on the apps when
you're not,
needing a,
validation tip,
a validation fix. Because if you do,
you know, it's it's an emotional roller coaster.
You know, you might get that
swipe that someone is interested in your profile.
But if you don't,
then that'll be more evidence and validation
that there's something wrong with you. Right? Mhmm.
You're not enough.
Right? It's like rushing you left with your
emotions.
Right? And so that when you go on
with that intention and that emotion at that
moment,
If you don't get what you're looking for
in the sad time, this the sad part
about this is oftentimes you will.
Right? You'll find some guy that's needy that's
out there that'll be liking on all of
your stuff, you know,
and
you'll get that hit.
Right? But the sad part about, you
know, getting a a a fix like this,
a
self worth fix is is only temporary.
Mhmm. Once you get it,
right, you're back looking for it again in
the next 5, 10 minutes.
Right? Mhmm. Mhmm. It's just like comfort eating
or comfort shopping. Right? It's just comfort swiping.
Right? So you get the you get the
little fix you need, but it doesn't last
long.
You don't get it. That's when you get
that that reinforcement of there's something wrong with
me. Right? Yeah. And then that can It's
tough. Yeah. That means so to
when that happens too many times, then it's
I'm getting off of the app.
Mhmm.
Right. I'm getting off of the app wherein
that also is problematic because it takes you
from your goal, which is you exposing yourself
to potentials.
Right.
But you really get off the app, not
because of the quality of people, but because
you were going on it at certain times
for validation things.
Mhmm. Mhmm. Right? Mhmm. That would temp Yeah.
So that's what I'm saying. When I say
lead with when you're leading with emotions,
unhealthy emotions,
it can be problematic. And I think sisters
aren't getting that. Right? They're not getting that
element of doing
that that that emotional regulation, that emotional work.
Because if you're gonna lead with emotions,
you need to understand how to regulate your
emotions
and what emotions are grounded and and underpinned
by,
healthy thinking, rational thinking.
The emotions.
I think that's the part with you might
have been alluding to in terms of that
disconnect because Right. What is the reality based
on the ground in terms of what brothers
are looking for Right. Versus what sisters may
be thinking brothers are looking for. Those are
thoughts. Those are beliefs
that aren't in in synergy.
Yeah. Right? Mhmm. And so if the sister
is on is under a
a unhelpful belief about what men are looking
for, it's going to guide her emotions
and guide what she does. Right? Thinking precedes
emotions and precedes actions.
There's actually a lot to unpack there.
There's a lot to unpack there. I think,
I agree with you. Often.
I think
one of the issues with
a lot of the
and just for the sake of the viewers,
guys, when we say dating apps, we mean
matrimonial
apps.
They're like dating apps, but people are supposed
to be on there looking to get married.
And we have plenty of them in the
Muslim community. But I think, personally, one of
the things that I found to be,
pernicious,
really, about
dating apps
is how they function like social media
in the sense of the dopamine hit that
you described.
Because it's it's exactly as you said.
You're you're putting something out there,
and you're hoping for a response. You're hoping
for a positive response.
And until you get that positive response, you're
swiping. Right? You're swiping and you're hoping.
When you get the match, it's the dopamine
hit
and that's great. But when you don't get
the match or when you're swiping left on
everyone,
there's there's there's a mood shift. You know,
there really, really is a mood shift. And
especially if you have, you know, your notifications
on, for example. Sometimes even if you have
notifications
off. Am I right, guys? Even if the
notifications are off in the back of your
mind, there's always the idea that I wonder
if anyone's seen my profile. I wonder if
anyone swiped right. Right.
So so it's tough. It's tough to stay
emotionally
stable
in that in that environment, I think, because
because it operates like an Instagram or, you
know, like Facebook, you know, where it's almost
the same motion.
And I think that's kind of built in
that kind of addictive quality, to be honest.
I think is built in to the to
the to the whole thing. Right? They play
on you not they play on you not
understanding your emotions and how to regulate yourself.
I mean, reality, whereas it may be different
in the UK, but in the states, we
don't teach emotional regulation.
No. We don't either. Right? So so they're
playing on the reality that you don't know
how to deescalate yourself.
Right? You don't know how to not
engage in instant gratification.
That's that's not just sisters. That's brothers as
well. Right? Yeah. So that's what they're planning
on. They're planning on you don't know how
to to pause,
regulate your emotions,
understand them,
deescalate them, and then
tell tell myself, you know what? I'm gonna
go for a quick jog. I'm gonna do
a 100 push ups. I'm going to,
you know, do something and then come back
to this app because I actually don't need
to know right now
if,
you know,
Khalid has hit me up.
It's that scarcity as well, isn't it? It's
that, you know, I need to know now.
I need to know if. I need to
know when. So there's that side of things.
There's the whole the way that apps work.
And the other thing as well that I
wanted to unpack was even the issue of
emotional regulation or just leading with emotion.
You gave the example of somebody who's come
out of divorce and is is looking to
to to marry again.
The question popped into my mind, you know,
how much
how much of that whole
previous marriage and divorce
is still with us as baggage
when we go into
looking for a new partner. In your experience,
do you think we're doing enough work to
kind of deal with the baggage of the
previous relationship and heal and kind of, you
know, come to terms with things, etcetera, before
looking? Or do you think,
no, just, like, get a bit get back
out there? Because just because you mentioned about
emotions and emotional regulation, what are your thoughts
on that?
So that's interesting.
I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you to bring
me back to an example. And the example
is a sister that recently reached out to
me who
I wanna say is within 3 months of
her divorce and asking me if she's,
ready
to get back out there. Is it too
soon?
Oh, but before I go there, I wanted
to
speak to the point that you mentioned about
baggage.
The way that I describe it to clients
is this. You have,
think of it like when you go on
a trip. You have your check-in baggage
and you have your,
carry on baggage.
Mhmm.
The baggage you want to have
is
the carry on baggage.
Mhmm. Baggage you don't want to have is
check-in baggage
because that weighs down the plane.
It's embarrassing when you have too much and
you have to sit there and unpack and
open up everybody and pay more. Right? It's
costly. Right? That's a good one. For those
of us from the Africa, from Africa, or
from, you know, Asia, from the diaspora, we
know how embarrassing it is to have all
of that luggage to have to take back
home with you. Yes. I get what you
mean. And as as a as a brother
to the state that's been to the continent,
to the Horn of Africa
about 9 times in love with the Horn
of Africa, I know the experience, unfortunately.
But what I would say is so, yeah,
the
the the check-in baggage is the one you
want. Right? Mhmm. You can lift it yourself.
If you got a a suave gentleman who's
with you, he'll lift it for you. It's
not a it's not a strain on him
as well.
It's not a strain on you. It's been
under your check, the overhead.
It's something you can manage. Right?
Mhmm. But the check-in is the one that's
problematic. It's costly to the person that's with
you. Mhmm. It's costly to you. Mhmm. It's
hard to you know, like I said, it
weighs down the the the plane.
It's problematic.
And so what you want to do when
you go into a marriage or once you
come out of your marriage is you really
want to look at
that check-in luggage. Mhmm. Right? You may have
some. You may have some, but you don't
want that check-in luggage that's fallen over that
you gotta you know, like I said, once
you get in the line, you gotta take
some out. It's just it's it's a nuisance.
Yeah.
Right? What you want and what you wanna
look for in someone else is someone that
has carry on luggage. Meaning, they can manage
it. Is that because we all have baggage,
essentially? Like, well, everyone's gonna have some check-in
luggage. Is that what you mean? Yeah. And
so this is the thing,
that I wanted to to mention. So when
it comes to baggage, I like to look
at baggage as the meanings that we make
about what happens to us.
Right?
So we always carry with us the meanings
that Mhmm. Right? The interpretations,
the evaluations
that we've made about things in life. Right?
And that's that's gonna be different. You and
I can experience the same thing, but Mhmm.
We have a different evaluation. We may perceive
it the same, but our evaluation of it
is different.
And that's and that's the thing. That's the
baggage that we carry with us and that
we always have to reassess.
Right? Because that's what gets problematic when you
get in a new relationship. You realize that
some of the meanings that you have about
yourself
aren't that helpful.
Right? And that's that meaning. Those are those
meanings, that baggage that you also take into
the apps.
Right? Yeah. Yeah.
So,
yeah, baggage is important.
And our you know, people need to do
that work. People need to be doing that
work. I I tell any any client that
I have,
like I said, majority of my clients are
sisters,
but the brothers I work with as well.
If the person that you're interested in does
not have a counselor or coach,
it's not worth it.
It's not worth it. Wow.
It's it's really not worth it.
Especially, sisters, if you if you have if
you are divorcee and have children and divorcee
and no children and you're 35, you don't
have time to waste.
You you, like, you really don't have time
to waste. If you wanna get to know
someone, you give it 6 months.
And then you wanna get married and at
least give it 6 months before you have
a child with this person to make sure
that the mask that comes off, you still
like the real face underneath.
I said, yeah. You got 36.
And look.
I don't mind the smoke that's gonna come
after this. I'm quite comfortable.
You know? I'm good.
So let me just be very clear.
The drama
and the issues within the Muslim community around
age,
I take it as it is.
So we have ageism, quote, unquote, ageism if
that's how we wanna look at it in
our community. That's just there. So
if you have 30 plus,
the reality is just look at the reality
of ageism within our community.
And how do you get what you want
given these parameters?
Because it's not gonna change for this generation.
That takes a lot of work. It takes
a lot of reeducation
if it can happen at all, because I
think Yeah. I think it's very problematic. So
so this so this is how I I'm
gonna push back on that. So, yeah, I'm
gonna come back to that point, Insha'Allah.
Please. So so so I think if it
can change at all,
I think persistence, the best thing to do,
if you're 30 plus,
focus on reality as it is.
Men have age criteria.
That's just it. We do. Okay. We think
Alright. Okay.
Now this is this is this is because
it's 2 things. 1 is,
you called it ageism,
which, of course, is you know, you get
in quotes and I and I get that
because it is something that people throw around.
Is it ageist to want to marry somebody
who's on the younger end if you want
to start a family? Is that ageism?
Excuse me. Pardon.
If you ask me, no. I was just
putting out there because I have Sorry, guys.
No. No. We're not buying that. We're not
we're not we're not doing that. We're not
playing that game. Because for me, if for
me, if somebody accuses,
a man or a woman who has age
based criteria
because
of the the the needs that they have
or the the the plan they have for
their life or the, you know, the what
their program is,
And you kind of say, oh, you're being
ageist,
whoever, brothers or sisters.
It it's it's smacks of of shaming, to
be honest. It's smacks of shaming people for
their preferences. I don't know. I'm I'm not
I'm not down.
It it is, and it's a waste of
time. It's a waste of time. This is
the
a basically saying a nice way. It's a
waste of time, sis. Right. So Okay. Well,
this is the marriage conversation.
So we're keeping it real.
And, really, this is the space, guys. In
case, you know, it's your first time watching,
you know, brothers, it's your first time being
on here.
You know, my goal for this series
is really for us to have honest,
thoughtful conversations.
So
this this space
is a safe space for people to be
honest. Cause you don't have to be disrespectful
or mean to be honest.
Now, when you come to a space like
this as a listener or a viewer,
understand that we are here to be honest.
So some of the things that you hear,
they may not feel too good. Some of
the things that you hear may give you
more food for thought than you were expecting,
but know that it's coming from a good
place. It's coming from a place of sincerity.
It's coming from a place of wanting better
for our community because at the end of
the day,
we could
weave fairy tales all day long.
But if anyone knows anything about me, especially
of late, like this life is not a
fairy tale.
The stuff that's happening out there, it's not
a fairy tale. These are not fairy tales
here. So
I was, I, I, it's my bad because
I was asking in a nice roundabout way
to, for you to be honest and give
the sisters
the reality. Like, what are we not getting
about what brothers wants? What are you seeing?
So one of the things we can see
is sisters having an issue with brothers wanting
to marry
someone
younger than
they are. Right? And feeling that that is
discrimination
or ageism, etcetera. And, you know, just as
you said,
it is what it is. Tell me other
things that just it is what it is.
Sisters
is what it is. I'll give you the
floor now.
So if I can, just just for,
you know,
the sister that that may be taken or
the brother that may be taking notes with
this.
Again, that unhelpful belief is the part that
I'm talking about. Those unhelpful emotions
that,
sisters lead with and sometimes brothers
lead with. Mhmm. Right? And under underneath that
unhelpful,
unhelpful belief or emotion
is this
quote, unquote ageism or this,
demand
that men shouldn't like what they like.
Mhmm. That is one of that is a
age preference. Mhmm. And that the other reason
why it's problematic is
it's a
another reason why it's problematic and a waste
of time is there's brothers that actually prefer
older loop.
Mhmm. Right? And and Mhmm. That
so, keeping it up keeping it a 100
of Yeah. Keeping it a 100.
I don't want a younger sister.
Mhmm.
Absolutely. So,
for transparency, I'm a married man. My wife
and I have had these conversations about living.
So this this is, you know, if I
choose to do it, I choose to do
it.
The reality is how young young woman?
Mhmm.
The onboarding process for a young woman
onto something that,
my wife is my wife and I have
created something
magical.
It's beautiful.
We have great team. Michelle, I'm not bringing
on
a young woman for that. Mhmm. I gotta
teach she had no.
You want a seasoned vet.
Right? Mhmm. So so why do I say
all of that? I say all that to
say that, sisters, it's not
as you may think it is that every
man wants a young woman, something for sure,
for sure. Older women. Right. They want experience.
Right?
So
I I I think that's the part about
the unhelpful belief because it's not grounded
in
evidence and not grounded in reality. It's the
reality is there are men that want younger
women. Mhmm. There are also men that prefer
older women. These are men.
Right? So that's the thing. That's that emotional
regulation piece,
right, of understanding, looking at my thought. Where's
the evidence for what I'm thinking?
Right? Is it really true that men only
want sisters that are younger?
No. Really, it's not.
Okay.
Had this conversation before. I've been involved in
this conversation before.
And
from what I understand
and again, like you said,
there's everybody out there. There's all sorts out
there. You know? And, you know, if this
brother if if he's not for you or
you're not for him, then inshallah, there's somebody
else.
But,
you know, this issue of a woman who's
been married,
who has children,
who is now looking for, for whatever reason,
she's looking to pair up again. She's looking
to get married again.
Those men who want
that woman,
how many of them
are already married?
And what do you say to sisters who
are in that position?
Either they've never been married, they're in their
thirties or forties, or they've been married and
they have children, they have responsibilities
already,
but
they will not settle for polygamy.
They will not settle
as as to be someone's second wife or
a third wife or a fourth wife. That's
just like, I can't do that.
What's
what's the solution?
So I I approach everything from a
kind of a
therapeutic,
perspective.
Right? And so you always have either a
emotional issue or a practical issue.
Right? It's the emotional part you have to
deal with and then the practical part you
have to deal with. And so
excuse me.
For
for assistance in that situation,
the first question you wanna ask yourself is,
what are you willing to pay?
Right? What is the cost you're willing to
pay
to extend
your process of getting married?
That's critical.
What are you willing to pay mentally,
emotionally,
physically,
spiritually, and financially?
That cost you half to do.
Because if not,
you can rule out religion.
That's fine. But you also have ruled out
a pool of men
and a already limited pool of men that
you have.
Right?
And so so this is also I'm speaking
to, to be very,
specific.
I'm speaking to sisters who,
have a a
a high libido
and or sisters that,
enjoy intimacy period,
had it in a hallow manner, enjoy it,
and want to continue it. The question I
have for those sisters is, how are you
gonna address that?
How are you going to address that in
a Halal manner?
What are you willing to pay
cost wise
to not have someone in your life to
address that? So some would say it does
it you know, it's not that important, and
this part isn't for you.
Mhmm. I know it's significant number of sisters
where it's that important
that it's ended up them being a mistress
to a married man when in the beginning,
they told themselves they would never be in
polygyny.
Mhmm. And then once they found out
that the man that they're dating is married
and or he's really not going to leave,
Listen.
As a mistress, though.
Wow.
Engage in.
This is so interesting because it speaks to
may Allah protect us, firstly. SubhanAllah, protect us
and and all those around us from
from those types of situationships.
Put it that way.
But it speaks to something that I've heard
said before where, you know, a wife would
rather her has have a mistress or have
an affair
than marry another woman and there be a
another wife.
I don't know how true that is. It's
just one of those things that people say.
But, you know, obviously, you work with a
lot of sisters, you know, variety of backgrounds,
you know, variety of kind of focuses in
life.
But what are your observations
of the the marriage market
amongst your constituency?
Okay. So the people you're working with in
this kind of modern Muslim age, what what
are your observations of what's going on out
there?
Brothers or sisters?
Well, you can address the brothers first and
then the sisters.
So what I'm seeing amongst brothers is it's
it's a biased mark.
It's a biased mark. It literally is.
We got options.
The brothers that I that I'm in contact
with
are are brothers that are,
brothers of resources,
are on their purpose. They're they're grounded.
Right?
They they believe in the law, but they
believe in also getting the pick.
And,
Are they the high value men that we
hear so much about?
So what I would say is they
they are practicing
Muslim men that are
driven,
focused
on purpose,
and got paper.
Mhmm.
And risky law. You gotta get out there
and get it. And they're getting out there
and get it. Right? Mhmm. And so
what they're not willing to settle for those
that are not married,
Now our sister's above 30,
and they're in their mid thirties. They are
they they're cut off, and I bring this
to. They
they they 20 they're 24
to 28.
Mhmm. It has to be exceptional,
for late thirties.
Mhmm. I mean, for late twenties. For late
twenties. Yeah. But the thing is, this is
this is something I've I've seen on your
page and elsewhere. I've seen, you know, my
sisters
surprised by this. I've seen sisters upset by
this and
and and very, very much taking these types
of requirements personally. And I know you've seen
it too. And and the thing that interests
me is that
it's happening everywhere.
This is not a Muslim issue. This is
globally
women who are in their late thirties, in
their forties, who are looking to pair up,
finding that
all the men of their age group
are not looking at them. They're looking younger.
Right?
And, of course, just like all the women
out there, you can find them on TikTok
by the way, in case you don't believe
me, but all the women out there who
are saying, where have all the good men
gone? Where are all the men? Right? And
why are none of these men taking me
seriously?
Can I can I please be fluffy?
Side note advice for sisters, please. If you
go through it, boys,
social media is natural friend.
So if
you say that again for the people in
the back, say that again for the people
in the back, please
Friend,
trust me.
If you are going through your phase
of all men or dogs
and it's f it girl season,
please
do
not
show it on social media
because when you age out of that little
phase of all men and dogs and you're
ready to get back on the market,
the men of
value, the men of resources, the men of
means
have long memories.
I tried to explain this to a sister
the other day.
I saw over the course of the past
year. I think she's gotten through a divorce,
has a child.
And
and now all of the the stories on
our thing that pops up is her in
a club
Put together with us. Mhmm. Mhmm. And I,
I just, I sent her a message that
sis, I, it was very straightforward. Like sis,
I'm not trying to sign and use your
DMS. I'm just trying to give you some
bucks. Mhmm. I'm married. I'm not it ain't
about that.
If you're looking for quality men,
let's talk.
The route you're going,
what you're showing, you're not gonna find it
there. Meaning Mhmm. Because it was an image
of her up in the lounge and all
that.
That. Sad. And so
I did this one time and this was
the first and the last time. I haven't
done it again. I haven't tried sliding in
to help.
First thing there's you know what the first
thing she said to me?
She said send me some pictures.
Hello?
She went to be the center pictures of
the eligible men. Like, man, you ain't got
it like that. Oh, wow. Okay.
You hit thirties and divorce. I'm not saying
for you to to to act out of
desperation,
but don't act like all of the cars
are in your hands.
You need to you need to be having
a different conversation with me.
Like,
are they are they practicing?
What are their careers like? Right?
You know, where do they work?
I don't even know whether she should be
having that conversation with you, to be honest,
because at the end of the day
sorry, guys.
You know,
it reminds me of the ayah in the
Quran that says, you know, the pure men
are for the pure women. And I'm not
saying that this is not pure but if
you're not
on your deen like that, if you're not
on it,
how are you going to go out there
asking for a guy who is? Right? It's
like you want the traditional man, but you're
not
you know, what I see
and I see it on your page and
I see it all over is a lot
of our sisters
have the same delusions that women
out there in the world have
about
their value. And we're gonna use the word
guys. Sorry. I know you're gonna cringe, but
on the marketplace.
I know you don't like it. But the
reality is if when you're on there swiping,
you know that you're shopping. That that's that's
that's that's what it is. You're looking and
you're either liking or you're not liking. Hollas.
Okay. So let's just let's just keep it
a book. Okay?
So,
so
sisters
overinflating
their value
based on criteria
that mean nothing to men,
that mean nothing to brothers.
So, again, it's not our fault. This is
part of the conditioning.
This is part of how we've been, you
know, you know, conditioned, how we've been cultured
to see ourselves through our achievements,
for example,
to see ourselves through the lens of our
education,
you know, whether it's whether it's, you know,
our master's degree or our money or our
career
or or any of those types of things,
we
elevate ourselves because of those things. Right?
Or
things that we as women,
value.
So life experience, for example,
wisdom, we value those things as women.
And not to say that men don't because
there are plenty of men who,
like you said, would prefer
an older sister because of her wisdom, because
of her maturity,
because of her soberness,
etcetera.
But for the sisters out there, you know,
who are in this stage of life and
the thing is, the reason we talk about
this on this channel is because we know
that it's a reality.
We know how many sisters there are out
there,
1 or 2 marriages in, okay, with children
who still want to be married. Right? They
don't want to be on their own. We
know this is a reality. That's why we
talk about it. But,
you know, doing what other women out there
are doing, which is presenting
ourselves
with the our very best masculine qualities
and a whole laundry list of demands.
Right? Laundry
list. A whole laundry list of demands
and
the mentality that
I shouldn't have to settle.
I deserve
x, y, zed, and I shouldn't have to
settle.
And for me
and sisters, I'm talking directly to you
because you know me already. Auntie Naima, I'm
a I'm a I'm a tell you, you
know, what I see happening
is that we are
deluding ourselves,
and we are
entertaining
unhelpful thoughts
about
who we are in the world,
who we can be to a man,
who we should be to a man and
what a man should be to us. And
if that stuff is not regulated, if that
stuff is not sorted out,
then what's going to happen is
you will never see anyone as worthy of
you
because you see yourself
as
such. And the thing is, it's it's you
know, brother, it's it's it's funny because as
sisters,
we validate each other.
We we love on each other. We support
each other, and I love it. You know,
sisters, we know you. We love it. Right?
We love the fact that our sisters are
always gonna have our back, and they're gonna
always make us feel good, and they're always
gonna, you know keeping it a buck.
Yes. We are. Because you didn't mention we
lie to each other. Okay. But I was
getting there. I was getting there. I was
getting there. Trust me. So
in our space as our sisters,
we we validate each other. We we love
on each other. We support each other. We
lift each other up. Right? Now a part
of that is, as you said, it is
color lying to each other. It's also soft.
Okay. Alright. Lying.
Oh, we're gonna know what it is. Lying.
Okay.
We we we do lie to each other
and we soften
and we, we pander to each other.
And we don't want our sisters to ever
feel bad.
And we would don't wanna say anything that's
gonna make I don't wanna say anything that's
gonna make my friend
feel
bad, feel like she made a mistake.
Like she's guilty of something as sisters, not
sister code amongst Muslimers. That's not, that's not
what we do.
And not to say that there are not
sisters who
and if I can explain it this way,
their motivation
is Those are the only sisters that I've
seen
who will be honest with you, like, honest
with you regardless of how you feel. They
will say to you, sis,
you're wrong.
This what you're doing right now, it's haram
or the way that you're going right now,
you're gonna end up in a bad place.
And they do
that only for the sake of Allah. You
know, it's only those sisters who they they
truly love you for the sake of Allah.
And they're not, you know, they're not afraid
to tell you the truth if that is
what you need to hear.
Most of us, we love each other because
we love each other. Right? So
if our echo chamber is other sisters
and maybe all our friends
are in a similar situation to us,
The conversations that we have are conversations
of validation,
of support,
of bigging you up, of elevating you, of
lifting you up. But unfortunately,
they are not conversations
that are realistic
or practical
or truthful
because the truth hurts.
And in this particular scenario, the truth hurts
and it burns
because
the fact of the matter is, as I
said before,
it's not a fairy tale.
And none of these situations
are are most of us are not in
a place where we've got all we're holding
all the cards.
By this stage in life, we're not holding
the cards.
We don't have the perfect scenario. We don't
have
tick, tick, tick off any man's list, let
alone a man ticking off our list. You
know what I mean? So so this is
this is
this is what I'm seeing from my side
of things.
There are other arguments to be made about,
well, you know, the brothers are
I won't say
I won't say what what the other conversation
is because the other conversation is, as you
said, we talked about social media and we
talked about, you know, women going through a
divorce, having their little epiphany phase or the
3 zero four phase, and it's online. Right?
It's all being broadcasted.
And the thing is, what we're seeing with
sisters is that we're doing the same thing.
You know, we we and and I wanna
speak to my sisters directly on this one
because
if for example, sis,
you
were on an app
and you were speaking to someone
and
for whatever reason it didn't work out.
Like brother Nasir said, don't go online.
Don't go and record a story.
Don't go and record a reel. Don't record
a TikTok
sharing
this is what happened to me. This is
how I feel. Because that stuff, which is
what we were seeing all the time, right,
is
it's creating a narrative in the culture
and you
sound crazy.
And so when a person of, like you
said, of value,
of of standards,
when he sees that,
he says, like, this is chaos.
This is craziness. Like, I don't This is
going to complicate my life, and I don't
need it.
And that's the difference between a younger man
and a more seasoned
man is he's looking for
what will complement his life versus complicated.
And so when he gets a whiff
that you will complicate his life,
he will exit.
And that's what makes it that's the part
about
sisters with children that I think
sisters don't get. It's not so much that
you've been married before, that you've been intimate
before, that you have children per se. It's
how can I navigate
and how can she navigate
her children,
my needs,
and our need as a as a couple?
Yeah.
And and the reality is that's a difficult
thing,
especially depending if you got young children like
the sister I mentioned to. Sister reached out.
She has 4 children
4 children all under the age of 6.
Oh, wow.
And and and it's like, sis, you want
to get remarried.
How are you gonna have time for another
man and give him his rights, his
due? You got 4 children. Like, mom, you're
nursing.
Like
and that's a beautiful thing, but you nurse
them. Like like
And then
Wow. Like, if you're under if they're under
6,
the probability
of 1 or 2 of them still being
in diapers,
mom, when you where you gonna get the
time?
Right?
And so and so when your message to
me is,
is this too early for me? And then
when you start giving me your criteria
and then you put up there,
polygyny is not for me. My polygyny is
all for you. It's for your situation.
I know somebody who would say that polygyny
is what you qualify for.
That's what you qualify for. Now don't let
anyone get that please don't come for us
in the comments, guys. Okay?
Like I said, we're here to have realistic
conversations.
So let let me let me speak to
the people that wanna come to the come
at me in the comments. This is let
me let me clarify because I have no
problem to clarify.
What I mean is this.
Let's look at it from the man's standpoint
that she wants.
Also, just a side note, her criteria is
35 to 38. So when we talk about
quote, unquote
age preferences, let's not forget that this happened
too. But since she's 35,
divorced with 4 kids,
and as high as you're willing to go
is 3 years.
It's like, this is those are the delusions
of grandiose. Like, you just
like, again again,
for anyone keeping notes, it's like unhelpful beliefs.
The thing I want people to take away
is unhelpful beliefs. Unhelpful thinking will produce
unhelpful emotions and unhelpful actions, and then you
circle back and reinforce
the unhelpful thinking. And the unhelpful thinking that
you qualify for something
other than what you are typically getting request
for,
right, is unhelpful thinking. It's a unhelpful belief.
Right?
And that's what you gotta learn how to
address. Yeah. And that's where
this is not a a a shameless self
plug, but if it is, it is.
This is where I come in,
and this is where I think
the reason why I have
a high
percentage of sisters as clients
is because
those are the uncomfortable conversations that the girlfriends
don't wanna have with. Right.
Right? That's that uncomfortable conversation that she doesn't
wanna have with her girlfriend. The girlfriend didn't
have her, and she's starting to realize I'm
making the same mistakes over and over. And
the advice that I'm getting
isn't the most help while they're married,
when they're divorced.
Right? They need to be doing this type
of work on themselves of unpacking
the unhelpful beliefs. And that goes for men
as well. Yeah. Because when men don't do
it, we get very
we get very needy, and that's so unattractive.
No woman likes a needy man.
Which brings us on to the topic of
simps.
Everybody knows
simple ain't easy. A simple ain't easy.
And
we did a little exercise on Instagram before
we did this, this before we had this
conversation.
And,
brother Nasir put out a question,
asking the brothers to tell him,
you know something
uncomfortable, an uncomfortable
truth that they would like him to convey
to my audience.
And we got a few of those, but
more than that
we got some brothers who sound like they
are the ones who are in need of
some uncomfortable truth telling.
Tell us about what happened. What do what's
what's coming up for these brothers?
Yeah. So look. Shout out to 1 brother.
I don't remember his name, but he brought
up a very good point wherein that he
said that
we we focus more on the emotional well-being
of sisters and that that of brothers. And
and I think that's true. Right? And
and and
and that's,
you know, hopefully, something I plan to address
in this space
of of men's improvement is providing men with,
the skill sets and insight, right, to to
understand and regulate their emotions.
But they gotta want it. That's the other
part with that. Right?
And one thing I give sisters and I
I've I've said this before.
I found in in my practice,
women, when they they sense smoke, they'll get
help.
Oftentimes, brother, the couch that they're on and
the remote that they have in their hand
has to be on fire for them to
try to get help. The sisters,
they they sent smoke
somewhere down the block or 2 miles away.
They they they didn't help.
Right? And that's a good thing. That that's
that's a good thing.
So that's that's one point. You know, I
I like the fact that the brother brought
that up because that is something that we
need to address more. Right? That doesn't mean
What did he mean by that? What did
he mean by that? And the reason I'm
asking this is because
this is the interesting thing
of
being in a sister space for a very,
very long time, in a women's only space
for a very long time,
and then slowly starting to hear men talking
and, you know, men talking to other men
about what it is to be a man
and being a man in today's world and
etcetera.
Now what's interesting to me is that you
literally have
2 realities
at the same time.
So I'm sure there are sisters who are
hearing you say there's more focus on the
sisters'
emotional health and emotional well-being than there is
on the brothers.
And there will be sisters who are saying,
are you kidding me right now? Are you
kidding?
Everything is set up for the brothers. Everything
is set up for the man.
The husband has all the rights. The husband
has it his way, any way he likes
it. You know, right now we're suffering because
sisters are not being heard and sisters are
not being taken care of etcetera
because that's her perspective
on
what's happening in the space.
So I need you to explain
why you agree with the brother and what
does that mean
that more attention is paid to the sister's
emotions than the brother's? Break that down.
When is the last time you heard someone
in conversation say
women need to stop acting like girls?
Good point. Yeah.
Yeah. When is the last time you heard
men need to stop acting like boys?
It's degrading.
We've been saying that. Yeah. Yeah.
It's it's labeling behavior. Right? And the reality
is
both men and women are men and women.
They just make unhelpful decisions and choices based
on unhelpful thinking and emotions.
Mhmm. Right?
But
we are comfortable with shaming men.
Right? We're comfortable with this kind of
Homer Simpson depiction of fathers and men.
Right?
And
men have feelings.
Right?
They're not gonna emote like women, and they
may not bring it up.
But if you look at some of the
post on my page,
those are some of the issues that I
bring up, and sisters
just find it difficult
to stay on topic. We're talking about
what is bothering
men.
Mhmm.
And it always come back to, okay. But
sisters, we go through this. And let me
we go through this. Like, okay, sis. But
that's not the point of this post. Mhmm.
Right? And so that's kind of this this
element that needs to be addressed. Right? Like,
we we've gotten too loose
with shaming men.
Mhmm. And that's just not sisters.
Unfortunately, we have community leader leaders and and
imams that that talk slick with it as
well.
You know, peace and sisters in the community,
and they do the same type of talk.
But in reality is just men make an
unhelpful decision, unhelpful choices.
Right? Emasculated
choices. Like, I I get that. Right? So
that's what needs to be addressed. But if
you teach men how to regulate their emotions,
how to be better,
right, in their choices, you'll get better results.
The same thing with systems.
Right? But we're willing to engage and give
that energy and time Mhmm. To that when
it comes to systems, but not with brothers.
It's okay for brothers to be the emotional
punching bag.
We need to talk loose
when it comes to
men.
Think think about when it's a touchy issue.
Again, like we talked about in terms of
age preferences for men,
men are called predators because they want
sister that's 10 years younger. They're 35 or
35 or between that rage. They're called a
predator.
What is this?
Where is this in our tradition?
But it's okay to label.
Right? And what about an older sister who's
45, 50, looking at a brother who's 40?
Is she a predator?
Right? But it so, again, it's it's this
issue of
we're willing to shame
and look down on brothers when they fall
short. Mhmm. We're all followed with human beings.
We will fall short. That's just reality.
Right?
And understanding that and accepting that is critical
to our own emotional well-being. So that's one
of the things that men need to understand
is that we're following the.
We will fall short,
period.
But we still can unconditionally accept ourselves regardless
of those errors that in ways in which
we've lost thought
despite being labeled
a boy in the moon,
right, or whatever the newest
trend is that it that comes.
But I think another part and then all
of this is and not to dismiss it
is
men aren't really going accepting.
And I think that's another thing that sisters
are starting to see.
We got options.
We we really got options.
We got sisters that are older. We got
sisters that are younger. We got Muslims.
Oh, and
I'm ready for the smoke. And we got
non Muslims.
We got options.
Right?
So
it would be it would behoove sisters to
let go of this shaming language
and come to the table with brothers in
a in a more,
equitable,
kind,
feminine
type man,
and that is shaming stuff
because we got options.
I hope that wasn't too straight.
The the word that's
resonating in my head right now is,
is humility.
And
I could be wrong.
No. I'm not wrong.
The way that women are encouraged
to behave in society today
is,
the whole boss babe thing.
The queen.
The diva. The boss babe. Right? Now
people may say this is a non Muslim
thing. This is stuff that they're doing out
there. It's got nothing to do with Muslim
women, but I disagree.
I see sisters,
and maybe you might have done it before,
imbibing
you're breathing the air of the culture at
the end of the day. There's no way
that you will be immune unless
you're like one of those sisters I was
speaking about who are
focused on their deen and that is their
main source of inspiration,
of knowledge, of
perspective, of focus. It's deen.
They
are safe and they are free from this.
The rest of us out here say again?
The silent majority.
I don't know whether it's a majority anymore.
I think with the generations, I think it
has decreased,
because most of us are not on knowledge.
Most of us are not practicing like that.
Most of us are not focusing on Quran
and learning the deen.
I don't know. We need to do some
data analysis, but I I I think the
silent majority maybe is the more traditional sisters.
But, anyway,
coming back to the
the the attitude that we're encouraged to have
through our education,
through the culture, through, you know, the kind
of behavior that is encouraged around us.
It is the opposite of
humility. It's the opposite of humble.
It's it's proud.
It's arrogant.
It's boastful.
It's prideful.
It's conceited.
It's
me.
All that.
And
I I see it in the
conversations
that people are having online.
I see it in the post that it's
make.
The stance that they take certain things.
And even though
we sometimes use Islamic
examples
and Islamic language,
the attitude
is one of female superiority
or
at best
and worse than female superior
at best,
it's independence from men.
We don't need your validation.
We don't worship men. We worship Allah. Now
facts. Okay. We don't worship men. We worship
Allah.
But the vibe, sis,
the vibe that you're coming with. I'm sorry.
If you can't see it,
I'll tell you. I can see it. That
has come from
the feminist
anti
male education
that you've had.
And when I say anti male,
it is the idea that as women,
we
don't need male approval.
We don't need male validation.
We don't need men. Period. Okay. We we've
got this. Right?
With Muslims, it's tempered slightly because, obviously,
you can't just be out there like that
and, you know, not ever have a husband
yet. Of course you have to have a
husband at some point,
but in your head you're thinking, I can
have a husband
and still fight the patriarchy.
I can have a husband and still speak
out against misogyny and toxic mass toxic masculinity
and all of these ideas that you're breathing
in from the culture.
But you're trying to islamize it and you're
trying to come out as a strong Muslim
woman,
but I'm
sorry. The vibe says the vibe is one
of
Muslim men are trash.
Muslim men
are garbage.
Muslim men are underdeveloped.
Muslim men are emotionally
stunted.
Muslim men do not know how to treat
their wives. Muslim men make terrible husbands. Aslan.
Right? Muslim men ain't.
That's the vibe.
So
when I see posts like that,
there was a time when I would have
read that and been like, Masha Allah. You
know? Like our Deen
empowers us. Our deen gives us this status,
right? Where we are not underneath a man
and we have no deen without a man.
Right? Alhamdulillah for that. And that's true.
But the extreme that we've gone to now
and where it's going
is
that male hating,
man bashing,
we don't need men actually. Yeah? And it's
it's unfortunate
that we have to marry them. It's unfortunate
that we have to have one to have
kids. It's unfortunate that we kinda have to
have a Waleed situation.
Right? It'd be so much better if we
did it. Right?
But anyone who's hearing this,
just if you're not on social media, then
you probably don't know what I'm talking about.
But if you are on social media, then
you probably have
seen this permeating our spaces.
And so, brother, what I'm saying is
the humility
to be able to come
to the table
with a man who
you deem worthy, okay,
Hopefully, with, you know,
realistic standards of your own. Right?
And the humility to be able to ask
yourself,
what do I really have to offer this
man?
What do I have
to offer this man?
Why should this man choose me?
And if I'm not ready to answer that
right now,
what is the work that I'm prepared to
do to make sure that I can answer
it at some point?
In order for me to be able to
answer that, I have to
humbly ask,
what is it that you
need? What is it that you want?
How can I be of service to you?
But I'm sure many sisters are thinking, sister
Naima's lost the plot right now because we
don't think like that.
We think
I need this. I need that. I need
a man who will do this. I need
a man to bring me that. I need
a man who's gonna this.
All of these things, I need. This is
for me. This is what I need. This
is my situation. He has to fit in
with my program.
Yeah.
And no man worth
his salt,
no man of of means, of of resources,
of emotional maturity
is going to get on the program of
a one.
Period.
If he does,
I'm interested in how long that's gonna last
and who's gonna be running that relationship.
I think that it's not
I hear you about the resources
and the means,
but I don't think it's about that necessarily.
Because I think that any man
who understands
how Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala created him
and what he created him to do, which
was to lead
and protect and provide, but to lead
spiritually,
mentally, emotionally,
to take care of his family. Right?
Who is
aware of that.
I think it's the masculinity that makes him
know
it's the frame. I think that's what I
wanna say. It's the frame. That's the foundation.
Like, why why else are you going after
the means and the resources? Yeah.
Right? To be a protective provider. Right. Yeah.
Yeah. And and what I tell brothers in
terms of those that aren't married, those that
I that I do work with, they're just
friends that are in my circle that aren't
married.
Now it's all about provider development, period.
Mhmm. Only
engage your time and attention to things that
enhance your ability to be a protect
system,
period.
If you if you are really
about it and really focused on your faith,
your finances,
fitness
Mhmm.
Finesse.
Mhmm. You're really doing that. Women are gonna
gravitate to it. Yeah. 100%. Rocket science.
Mhmm. 100%. You're going to come in contact
with women.
Right?
That's just gonna happen. Yeah. And then when
women are women gravitate
to a men to men that have great
programs that are going somewhere. Yeah. 100%. Right?
100%. And so this thing isn't that hard.
Right?
So,
again, the the foundation is
we're we're I apologies.
The giving is we're talking about men that,
you know, like, want to be providers and
protectors.
Right? That they understand that that's their role,
and they're going into relationships.
Before I got married, when I was,
excuse me,
when I was, you know,
speaking with my wife, I asked her multiple
times.
I plan to lead. Are you looking to
run this in any kind of way? And
I was I asked that question
with the understanding
that I was completely ready to walk away
from it if her answer was yes.
I have no I had no intention
of marrying a woman that wanted to run
a relationship.
Period.
I want someone who's open and and wants
to be a co a copilot, period.
You mean you were looking for a submissive
woman, brother Nasir?
With a capital s.
Oh,
okay.
Oh.
Yeah. This is a trigger word, by the
way, nowadays. This is this is a triggering
word. Okay? So we may need to give
some context here.
That that's exactly what I was looking for
because I knew what I was doing to
the tape. I knew that. And that if
you ask my wife, she will ask. One
of the things that that she'll say
is the reason why she married me is
I had a plan, and I demonstrated how
I was working my plan. Mhmm.
She knew what I what I had been
working on, where I plan to take us
in terms of this this marriage for the
next 5, 15 years. She could clearly see
it and see the things that I've been
doing prior to meeting her
that leads to that happening.
Mhmm. That that light blew her mind. Mhmm.
Right? Yeah. And so I knew what I
was looking for. I knew the type of
player, the type of person I needed on
the team.
I wasn't willing to settle for anything
other than
that.
And, you know,
my wife has a degree and is educated,
but that wasn't my interest at all. Mhmm.
Yeah. Less about that. I'm more concerned about,
you know, realness,
how she's gonna be as a mother.
Right?
How is she going to support me as
I take this family in a certain direction?
Mhmm. Right?
That's that's what I'm looking for, and that's
what I think the men that I hear
from, that's what they're looking for.
Compliment,
not complicated.
No man it's like the post,
one of my UK brothers, told me, he
says no man in history has ever been
turned on and attracted to being aroused by,
academic qualifications.
Just just isn't what we're looking for.
Right? And this hurts sisters. This hurts women.
This it's it's it's it hurts.
Because of this unhelpful belief. Society
has reinforced the unhelpful belief that they pursue
academic
accomplishments
Mhmm. Subtly
to qualify for,
a man or to be held in higher
esteem,
that doesn't that doesn't do it for us.
I think the the societal messaging,
if I may be so bold as to
tweak that,
societal messaging is that
pursuing academic goals
and professional goals is superior
to qualifying for a man. And I have
to say qualify because even the idea of
qualifying for a man is anathema.
What do you mean qualify? What's a man?
What's great about a man? I have to
qualify for him. What do you mean? Can't
you see me?
You know, it's it's that kind of energy.
Right? I'm the queen.
Yeah.
Hence hence men saying,
and you'll hear it often,
men will take a 6 or a 7
with a great personality, and that's agreeable
any day over a 9 or a 10
with that type of attitude.
Hence, the barista or the waitress
in the halal shop has just enough of
a chance as the PhD from Harvard.
That's real talk.
Yeah.
We're just looking for something different.
Now pursue the PhD if you want it,
but just don't pursue it with the demand.
Again, we come back to limiting belief and
the Mhmm. And criteria
that makes something a limiting belief, one of
which is a demand.
Don't pursue the PhD with the subtle demand
that I must value it as you value
it in terms of criteria for marriage.
That's a demand.
That makes it a limiting belief.
Another thing as well that comes to mind
is if you are going to pursue whatever
you're gonna pursue guys,
at the end of it's your life, you
can do whatever you want.
But if you are going to pursue higher
education,
a career, secure the bag, etcetera,
I think another thing that's unhelpful
is making it a criteria
for your mate.
That because I have a PhD, now I
must be paired with someone who has a
PhD. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Because I have this
professional success,
I must, I can only have somebody who
is just as successful as me or more
successful. Otherwise,
I'm settling and I can't, I can't do
it. Right. And I think that is where
a lot of women in the world, maybe
sisters as well, find themselves in that place
of just pricing themselves out of the market.
And, you know, there's a fine print with
that.
What's that? At a certain age.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. At a certain age,
that goes out the window.
Right? You look at somebody with a bachelor's
and or, you know, a a trade
and nothing wrong with a person with a
trade, but you'll accept someone with a trade
once you get past a certain age.
And that's the other difficult conversation that needs
to be had because
at what point do you start considering
yourself being at that certain age?
True. When you have to start
being realistic about your options.
I've had clients that I've worked with, and
I've tried to,
you know, suggest
Mhmm.
Start entertaining that a little bit earlier
because 38, 39,
and you want children. Like, if you don't
want children, we're having a different conversation. Yeah.
But you want children, and you do not
want children when you're 40. That's not me
saying it. That's what you want. That's your
goal. Yeah. You need to get married before
40 and a half children.
Then why you need to stop with this
538, 39,
then you'll start considering certain things, a certain
pool of men.
Like the video. Make sure you subscribe to
the channel. And you don't wanna miss a
single episode of the marriage conversation with an
aim of b Robert because we are going
deep on that nobody's talking about that we
need to be talking about. So
I wanna just thank you, brother, for being
such a guest, for just being so open
and honest with us.
Inshallah, we'll have you back maybe on a
Saturday night live stream and have, you know,
our audience kind of come in and and
bring their questions and and have some fun
there, Insha'Allah.
But in the meantime,
may Allah bless you and your family and
your work
and guide us all.