Naima B. Robert – @muftimenkofficial gives honest advice to Muslims about marriage
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Welcome to the marriage conversation with Naima b
Robert.
This is
the last episode that I am recording, but
it's the first one that you guys are
going to see, and it is with somebody
that I have so much love for the
sake of Allah and respect for. And that
is our brother, Mufti Menck, and he's joining
us.
Brother. How are you doing? Well,
I'm doing well by the father and mercy
of Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala. I hope you're
doing okay.
Alhamdulillahi rabbalameen.
It's been, subhanAllah, such a journey,
with these conversations that we've been having about
marriage. And I know how how many talks
you've got out there on the topics
of, you know, finding spouse, marriage, divorce, just
the whole range of it.
Marriage is a big deal, isn't it, in
our communities, Pamela?
Obviously, they, you know, it it it is
a deal,
and, people make it sometimes a bigger deal
in the sense that they make it difficult,
in the sense that they make it,
they create obstacles that are nonexistent
in if you look at the deen of
Allah, but they become culturally there or just
the norms of the time.
SubhanAllah. Yeah. That that makes so much sense.
And actually, you know, one of the things
that,
I mean okay. Like I said, and I
have said this to you before.
If anybody wants to Google advice on marriage
for,
they're gonna find a ton of videos. So
in this conversation,
you know, I really would like to, you
know, just have
an honest open chitchat, I guess, about, you
know, the reality on the ground. And
I am, alhamdulillah, familiar with your family. Mashallah
Tabarakallah and
from the outside,
you've encountered all the obstacles,
right, that people put in the way.
When it comes to, for example, living with
in laws,
divorce, polygyny,
all the things that people are so about
and who feel that those things are of
you know, they basically are,
I wanna say
challenges that are insurmountable.
Right? Challenges that
you you can't get over. You can't have
a successful marriage if any of those factors
are present.
How have you made it work? How have
you guys and I'm gonna say everybody, like
the whole family. How have you guys made
it work?
Subhanallah.
I don't usually discuss my own personal life,
but I think I will for people to
actually perhaps take a page
from. Before I even start, I want to
say that when it comes to marriage and
divorce,
generic advice is not always applicable to everyone
because situations can differ. People's emotional levels,
there's, you know, psychologically,
emotionally,
mentally, physically. It depends on what level they
are on.
And at times, something that we might have
said in our lectures,
as a point of advice might not be
applicable
in certain situations,
or they may only be applicable
in some situation. So,
it's it's very difficult to to speak in
the public about issues where many people from
different backgrounds, different situations are going to be
listening in.
Sometimes what I say may not be applicable
to everyone. And,
one of the things that I always make
clear is even though I may have more
than one wife,
I I do want to make it clear
that I I
tell
some men that you know what? I don't
think you are a person who should be
doing this because I can see they don't
have the capacity. I can tell you this
person is not going to do justice,
to this to this situation. So,
people say, but how how could you say
that when you're in this situation? Well,
it's a whole package. It depends who you
have with you and who you are and
the situation around you. All three things matter
a lot. When you have made a choice
of a spouse,
if that choice
was was muaffak, meaning if Allah had accepted
you for an amazing choice
that would look into certain things that might
happen in in the future in your life
and might be more accommodating
if that spouse
recognized you as a person who's upright
Mhmm. A person who's
fulfilling
all the rights
possible, a person who's able and capable,
you know, then you're you're just a fortunate
person because you made a good decision. But
the problem is when we choose our spouses
right at the beginning, the first time,
people sometimes haven't listened to advice.
And, you know, a lot of the times,
very unfortunately, my dear sister, they just go
for the outward appearance. It's very sad. It's
happening a lot, and and I think we
need to speak about it because,
I always believe it's a package. It's a
full package. So, subhanAllah, in in my situation,
you know, it's just Allah Almighty,
together with, meaning who has granted us the,
the patience as well as the ability to
a degree,
and and and and it's a whole team.
It's a whole team. If any one
of the people in that team is not
in sync, I think you would actually tip
the boat.
You 100%
agree. And, yeah, it is a team effort,
isn't it? I think,
especially from the spouses,
and if you're taking into account sort of
parents. I think we take on a bit
more of the work because we're younger and
we're flexible. But,
the the word that you mentioned there, which
I'd like to kind of explore a little
bit more is patience.
And I I just think, you know, our
generation,
it's one thing that we lack is patience.
You know? We we we want we want
and we want it now. We want the
way that we want it. And, you know,
all of these things that you've mentioned, like,
you know, duty to the parents, you know,
duty to the husband, duty to the wife,
all of these things,
dealing with them as human beings,
they just require so much patience.
Well, that is not true.
Yeah. I think, you know, when when we're
younger,
we we're spoiled to a degree by our
parents in many cases,
in many instances. And
we, as parents, now spoil our children in
as much as we can to the maximum
without realizing that we need to give them
chores. We need to let them do things
themselves. We need to let them clean the
house. Perhaps we need to let them assist
in the cooking. Perhaps we need to let
them,
get used to the ironing and and the
washing and so on because someone, somewhere has
to do that when you get married. All
along, your mom might have done it. Your
dad might have helped. But did you actually
get your children prepared for that? No matter
how wealthy you are, you don't know whether
that wealth is going to last. You don't
know, you know, your
I always say that the the choices that
we have,
you know, for a spouse
are minimized
when we only look at a certain level
of people in terms of finance, in terms
of society. Yeah. Because they're always gonna be
the minority. Right? That that top percent that
can afford this and this and this and
this. They're always going to be fewer of
those
than average people, you know, with average income,
etcetera. Sorry. Go on.
Yes. And do you know
yesterday, I was communicating with someone,
and, you know, the the argument was that
in certain cultures and right now in certain
countries as well,
when looking for a spouse or your daughters,
what they say is we want someone who
has at least at least a house and
a car and a good job and and
whatever. You know what? I think that if
you're prepared to sacrifice with a responsible human
being who has deen and aflak,
I think you stand a better chance of
raising a much better, more responsible family than
you would if you looked for a person
at the age of 20 in their twenties
who already has everything. I
it's problematic. You've minimized
your,
you know, your your numbers, your the chances
of you getting a spouse who's like, you
know, amazing human being unless because you've just
cut the numbers down, and now you're looking
for someone who has wealth already. And this
is the biggest difference I found with our
generations
and the ones of our fathers and and
perhaps grandfathers.
Where when they married, they actually built a
life together.
And they actually started at 0. Because the
man was responsible, the woman was responsible, they
fulfilled their roles. They then, got, they lived
in rented accommodation for for long. Some people
die in rented accommodation. That's true. That's true.
The path of the world actually the the
majority of the
world doesn't I mean, don't they don't own
a house.
So it's not like you need to own
it. But, unfortunately, parents are making a mistake.
And it's not like you need to have
a car. You need to have everything. For
as long as the youngster's responsible comes from
a decent upbringing, and he has dean and
character, and for as long as the, the
way of thinking is more or less in
sync with your child,
I think that that would make a much
better spouse
than someone who might just have materialistic
belongings
and nothing beyond that.
It's
almost as if I it's interesting that you
mentioned the parents actually because this is something
I've been saying,
quite a bit. And I think that
that this
there's been a glitch in the parenting model,
I think,
you know, when it comes to Muslim parents
where, like you said, you know, this
maybe you can say,
the generation that had the millennials that brought
them up. Not so much us,
although, you know, it it can differ in
different countries and, I think, different economic levels.
But I think there was a time
when Muslim parents, as you said, would bring
their children up very much in the ways
of their role. Right? So mothers would teach
their daughters how to make roti, for example.
You know, the father would give the son
responsibilities.
Right? Is that the same? Would you say
that that was the case in in, like,
the Indian community in Southern Africa, for example?
Yeah. I think I think that is the
case. And as time passed, let me tell
you, because we want to give our children
the best according to us, we end up
messing their lives because we've taken away from
them responsibility
in the name of giving them the best.
So they've never cooked. They've never cleaned. They
have no responsibility. Someone does things for them.
They're not ready to sacrifice. They were never
taught to sacrifice. They didn't watch anyone sacrifice
or be patient, etcetera. And so when they
grew up, they were spoiled, rotten. And unfortunately,
I'm just going to say it that way.
And and then when they marry, they expect
everything on a platter, and they wouldn't even
lift a spoon literally.
And that's not what it should be. There
is a lot of patience required. You're gonna
have to make the bed in the morning.
You're gonna have to do so many things.
You might be privileged to have someone helping
you like a helping hand in the home.
But
in most cases, if you'd like to get
a brilliant spouse, he might not have all
of that at once. I've known of youngsters
who started at 0. I mean, I started
at absolutely 0. And I think that people
who say, oh, Mufti Mencken, we'd like you
know, he's such a good guy and so
on now, I think that
the same people, when I was ready to
get married at a point, would never have
even considered a guy like that. Never. I
agree with you 100%.
Somebody needs to clip this because that is
100%.
I agree with you because on paper,
you know, so many things. Nope. Nope. Oh,
in laws, this, that, this, that. No. You
know? It would be like, not the sky
is I can give you an example. I
can give you an example. Sorry to interject.
When I got married,
I didn't have a proper income at all.
I didn't have a proper job at all.
I was just an imam. In fact, I
was still a student. I was relying totally
on my parents. I would live with my
parents.
I I I I didn't come from a
wealthy background whatsoever.
No one knew which way we were gonna
head. Allah alone knows.
And, subhanAllah, I remember asking my
my my wife. I mean, you know her
quite well. And I asked her, I said,
you know what?
What makes you want to marry a man
who's already divorced with 2 children?
What makes you want to marry a man
who's divorced with 2 children and has almost
nothing?
And she says, well, I this was her
answer. She says, you know, my brother told
me this guy is a really good guy
and he's very intelligent. And you know what?
Inshallah,
it things will head in the right direction.
And my father told me, this guy is
a really amazing guy and so on. So
I'm just taking their word for it. I've
met you. I think you're a good person.
And there goes and guess what? I met
her once. That's it. And I met her
once in the sense that with the idea
of marriage. And I spoke to her possibly
for an hour. And today, that's the mother
of my children, for example, and I wouldn't
trade her for the whole world. You know
that.
Yes. She's a gem. She's a gem. Listen,
sisters.
You know, Mufti's,
initial wife is not on social media, but
if she could teach us a thing or
2 about holding it down. I think that's
that's what I think that's what I would
say about this sister.
She holds it down, and she holds it
down beautifully.
So it's that
that And then go ahead. To give her
the credit if I can. Just to give
her the credit. Today, I'm able to do
what I can do because my family supports
me. Today, I'm able to do what I
can do because they believe in,
the sacrifice. They believe in perhaps not being
able to be with me all the time,
although we try, but you know how it
is in the field.
People don't don't recognize your wife. So much
so that I feel so bad sometimes when
we're all maybe in
a supermarket or a mall or in a
public place, and and and people, men and
women would come and women even women would
come and greet me and ignore my family
completely. Whereas the etiquette would be, if you're
a female, you start off with the wife
to say, oh,
How are you my sister? I just noticed,
you know, so and that's how it would
be. But, unfortunately,
people ignore
the power behind the man in actual fact.
And and and it's because of their sacrifice.
If she said, for example, listen, I can't,
I won't I won't tolerate you traveling or
I won't tolerate you speaking to x y
zed or doing this, what would I have
done? I probably would have said, well, that's
it. The shop is closed. But she believed
in me. She understood this guy, you know,
this is what he needs at this time.
She lived with my folks for 22 years
with my parents, serving them. Stop. Stop.
Stop. Stop. Stop. Roll
the tape back.
Roll the tape back. This is her sister
who was born and bred in the UK.
Am I correct? Yes. Born and bred in
London. In London. Okay. And then she moved
to Zimbabwe.
And 20 how many years? Please say that
again. She she lived with my parents serving
them for 22
years.
Like I said, guys,
the sister, you know, really it's it's it's
humbling. It's
protect the whole unit, but it's humbling to
be in her presence,
because I think, you know, what this demonstrates
to me, and I hope what the the
viewers are getting from this is that
marriage is is part of building this institution.
Right? This family, this.
And it's it's an it's a legacy project.
You know? It's not about it's and again,
I've said this before. It's not just about
me and my feelings and what I want
and my version of the future and my
vision.
When you join with a man,
there is there is a a a joint
project that you're working on and
investing in. And,
you know,
when I was in Zimbabwe earlier this year,
I got to to meet the sister again,
and, you know, meet the family. And, obviously,
your daughter is now married
also to a student. In fact, 3 of
the daughters are married. Is that right? That's
right.
Which is something that many people are struggling
with as well today. You know? This and
the thing is, what I what I what
I really
I want to lean into this thing because
like you said, you know, people will see
Moxie Mae Ng and they think this and
they think that. They don't understand
the the sacrifice
behind
this man and the the the really the
patience and strength of the family behind what
you're able to do. But also
You know, sutinaima, I have to just interject
because I wouldn't like to,
I wouldn't like to ignore the sacrifices of
the rest of my family. Yes. Because everyone
yes. And, you know, for example I'll give
you an example. When the issue of polygyny
came in, I remember what my wife told
me. She said, I'd be happier if you
didn't do this, but if you did, I
would not be an obstacle.
And I was thinking to myself, you know
what? Nobody would tell you this, you know,
especially coming from a western background, coming from
I mean, Muslim. It's it's gotta be someone
who believes in you. They trust you. They
know you won't harm them. You won't oppress
them. None of the rights that you have
would actually be taken away in any way
whatsoever.
And therefore, it's a sacrifice from all, from
both.
And it's actually something that I owe them.
I owe them in a big way.
And and thing is, you know, many I'm
sure there are many sisters. Guys, if we're
honest, okay,
if you had been serving your husband's family
for however long and dealing with him traveling
and being away, if he came to you
and he said, oh, by the way, I'm
thinking of marrying again, I think you'd have
something to say about that. And it would
be kinda like, you made to tell me
I've been doing x y zed,
and now you're gonna go and do such
and such.
Just a disclaimer. Just a disclaimer.
I I'm I'm not saying you should do
it or you shouldn't do it. I'm just
mentioning what happened. Yeah?
It's just what it is. But again, you
know, you know,
I've met your your daughter, you know, lovely
girl.
And people would assume
daughter,
You know? She's gonna be expensive. Like, it's
gonna be tough to marry her. You're gonna
have to have this and have that and
have this. How did you decide
who you would marry your daughter off to?
How did you choose? How did you make
that decision? Do you really want to know?
Somebody sent me an SMS and told me
that, you know, I'm keen on this, and
what do you think about it? And I
and because I I knew
the person and I'm giving you one example,
one of them. Right? Because I knew the
person and I knew what,
what it was, I responded to say, look.
Let me get back to my let me
speak to my family, think about it, and
get to you. And guess what? It started
from a little SMS, and then I I
asked around, and, the next thing is,
I ended up meeting him. And and then
I I brought him home to meet her.
And then
and then I and then I told him
I wouldn't like to delay this, and then
it happened,
very quickly. And, you know,
people say at what age should your child
be married?
You I think that you should plan
your you should plan for what's in your
hands. And in the process, if Allah throws
at you something
grand, you can change your plan because of
something that Allah has sent you. For example,
we all want to, our kids to to
study, to qualify, to get a degree, to
do this, to do that, and to be
able to be self sufficient, to be able
to work and earn and be on their
own 2 feet, male and female.
But while we have that plan
and while we are working on it in
the process,
you might have someone who's keen on something
like marriage, who is an amazing
option. And because I'm a counselor for so
many years just like you are, I think
I've seen a lot of people who've delayed
things and regretted the delay.
And and sometimes, I always believe, and I
even have a video on this to say,
that proposal doesn't come back. That's standard off.
That quality off. That that you know, maybe
the first or second or third one. You
you you can say no for as long
as there's grounds to say no. I think.
If the deen is lacking, the alaq is
lacking, you don't really like what the guy
looks like, or you haven't skipped a beat
because of this person, for example. So you
could and this goes either way, boys or
girls, males or females. Well, I might be
addressing it one way because we're talking of
my own, my own, child, for example.
But,
sometimes you have to adjust a little bit.
It doesn't mean you're not gonna pursue your
studies, but it does mean that you might
want to get into something amazing
that would be more,
you know, more meaningful for the rest of
your short life on earth
than if you were just to throw it
aside and say, listen, I'm not interested because
I'm studying.
Your studies are important, but you know what?
This is something Allah sent you a risk.
Allah sent you sustenance and, you know, risk
spouse is part of your risk. And when
Allah sends risk, don't just kick it because,
subhanallah, it's something that you have to think
about. I'm not saying accept it always, and
I'm not saying reject it always. But I
am saying think about it, consider it, and
then you may want to say no or
you may want to say yes. But to
throw it away without even looking into it,
you might just have missed the diamond.
SubhanAllah. That's so so true. And I think,
you know, like you like you said, you
may have a timeline in mind. Right? You
may have you know, like you said, you've
got some things that you want to achieve.
And I'm gonna say this especially to the
sisters because I think sisters are more likely
to get proposals when they're younger. Right? When
they're maybe just going into university or they're
still in uni or whatever the case may
be. And I think, again, I was talking
about, you know, at that generation
that I think really failed to prepare children,
for responsible
Islamic life, meaning,
you know, how to how to be responsible
as an adult and also to be responsible
as a wife and responsible as a husband.
I think that spoiling that you mentioned,
I think it yeah. It it messed up
a whole generation. But going back to this
point,
the idea that you get a proposal that
doesn't fit with your plans,
I think that we it's very easy
for a lot of even women and families
to throw it out and be like, no.
You gotta get your degree. You need to
get your masters. You need to do this.
You need to do that. And I think
that generation did do things like that. And
the thing is that for many of those
sisters, like you said, that proposal didn't come
again because that brother went and married somebody
else who was ready to get married. Right?
And then, you know, after the fact,
many of those sisters are now I hate
to use the word, but it's kind of
like behind me, like, on the shelf,
just waiting because now they've got the degree.
Maybe they've got, you know, a job or
a career, and they're like, now I'm ready
to settle down. But
like you said, the proposal isn't there. And
it's it's something one of, our other guests
mentioned,
which is that
if you insha'allah and Allah knows best. Okay?
This is a generalization, but I believe it
to be true.
If you invest in your family,
whether it's getting married younger, whether it's having
a lot of children, you know, whatever it
is, even if it entails
looking after in laws, okay, living with in
laws, looking after in laws, whatever.
When you invest in your family for the
sake of Allah,
even though it involves
often a sacrifice for you personally as a
woman. Let's let's be frank here. As a
woman, there is a personal sacrifice
that you put others before you for a
certain period of time.
But what this guest said to me and
what made so much sense to me was
that
near the end of your life, those are
the things that you will never regret.
Like, you will never regret having had those
5 children within 7 years. Okay? Like, something
like that, you know, where at the time,
it was like,
ugh. But in 10, 20 years time when
those children are grown and they are now
all around you,
you know, doing their thing, raised, getting married,
having their children, you'll never regret that. Whereas
when we make decisions that are more for
dunya,
chasing money, chasing wealth, chasing a degree, chasing
fame, fortune, whatever it is that people chase
nowadays,
they are the ones who have regrets later
on in life. I don't know. Do you
do agree with that? Do you think they're
off base with that?
Well, I think I agree with that. And,
like, you know,
the the problems that we face on Earth
are very, very,
known because,
there is a shortage of a good quality
of person, male or female, but more so
male. There is a shortage of a good
quality of person where because of so much
that's happening, across the globe, people sway.
They tend to sway.
Sometimes, you know, you have youngsters going into
weed and going to the drugs and alcohol
and so on. And so they have a
phase in their lives where they've they've dived
into this. Many come out of that phase,
but many don't as well. So it's very
important for us to to to know where
to, you know, where to,
pause and make a little change in our
lives. Like you say,
sometimes Allah almighty definitely definitely has this plan
for us that we seem to be running
away from. And Allah almighty says, but I
sent it to you. You know, like, people
say, but I'm not getting any proposals, for
example. But Allah says, but I sent you
someone way back, and you're the one who
said no. Now what you know? It's just
an example. However, however, I don't want those
who may not have married early to lose
hope because
we need to strike that balance, you know,
where
now that we now that we may have
made a mistake, and in some instances, not
a mistake, it just didn't come because of
society and community.
Yes. It brings me to another point I'd
like to address, but let me finish this
one. So so what happens is as you
grow older, still have hope and keep trying.
Keep trying. You know?
Keep your eyes open. Speak to your folks.
Speak to others, and try. And you don't
have to compromise your standards because
my experience is
you'd rather,
you'd rather not be married than marrying a
guy who's gonna destroy your life and mess
your mind and make you
a a a wreck, you know, an emotional
wreck. Yeah. From my experience, I've seen women
suicidal,
you know, because of someone who they they
married.
And and I'd rather this person in fact,
they will tell you, I wish I'd never
ever married. And I agree. I wish you
didn't. But try saying that. I'm not saying
to them remain unmarried. But if something's not
opening, perhaps Allah's protecting you from, from something
great. Concentrate on yourself. Build yourself.
Get things around you. And you know, try
and invest a little bit for maybe your
old age and so on. And don't worry.
Make the most of whatever Allah has provided
you with. So that also needs to be
said. It's it's something that Allah Almighty knows
best.
We're just in there. We don't know the
future, but we have to keep trying.
Yeah. No. SubhanAllah, it's
it's a it's a tough one. It's a
tough one, isn't it? Because I think, you
know, being single is something that's so normalized
now, isn't it, in society and being single
sometimes for the rest of your life and
having a fantastic time being single as well,
which I on the one hand, I'll be
honest. On the one hand, I understand
why one needs to make the most of
being single. I get it.
Because you you know, what's the alternative? The
alternative is to sit sad and lonely and
depressed and not have a life. Right?
However, I think, again,
that need for balance
where you don't have such a fantastic time
being single
that you could've possibly be married because marriage
now is a downgrade from your fun lifestyle.
Do does that make sense? Did you do
you see what I mean by that? I
think In fact, that that is a major
problem we're facing right now where people,
they think that they're going to lose their
independence, and they're not prepared to tie down.
But you know what? You have to to
a degree.
You have to tie down to a degree,
and then we address the spouses and say,
make it easy for your spouse. Don't be
too demanding. Don't be don't expect too much.
One of the root causes of divorce today
is expectation,
where we expect so many things, and we
actually
don't realize this is not going to come
from this guy or from this girl. You
know, I, for 1, in my family, they
know that I am very predictable
in the answers of what they're going to
ask me when they ask me for something.
Because my rule is, if it is permissible,
and I can do it, and we can
do it, let it be done. I'm not
going to say no because they should. I'm
not too hard on my own,
family members because I know that if if
it's okay and permissible, let them have a
little bit of fun. Let them, for example,
do this thing. I don't want them tomorrow
to say, oh, we were unable to do
it. And I am not we should not
be. We should not be, you you know,
typical men of yesterday where you just want
to see how this woman is going to
obey your instructions. So you say, sit down.
Okay. Now you move there. You're not gonna
go there, and there's no reasoning behind it.
There's no rationale. There's no there's no system
of thought where they could predict you. They
wouldn't even ask you if you were a
person who was disciplined enough to to be
predictable.
You know? So,
if, for example,
a child wanted to go to a rave
party or
something, and they knew that this is not
something that my family would accept, they wouldn't
even ask. They would probably just say, look.
You know what? I'm not gonna go because
I don't wanna create a problem here. But
if you're a person who does one thing
and does another thing without making any sense,
I mean, why did you just say no
for nothing? It's arbitrary. Just just like a
power play kind of thing, just to show
that I can. I said no because I
can. Yes. Yes. When we try to be
very hard, especially in this day and age,
we end up creating hypocrites. We end up
creating those who are never satisfied. And then
those, subhanAllah, who actually,
create hardship for others one day later on
because they watched you do it. Now they're
gonna do it to others. Mhmm.
Mhmm.
Mhmm.
It's a big work. It's a big work,
Yani.
I, you know, we've been talking a lot,
you know, on the, you know, various different
places, and we will continue to talk about,
you know, the the the role of the
wife, the role of the husband. And I
think one of the one of the areas
that we haven't really touched on is this
area of leadership,
of being the of being the leader of
the family. Right? I think, often when we
have these discussions about sort of men's role,
women's role, you know, husband's rights, you know,
wife's rights, etcetera,
it's almost like the man can do anything
and can can can have everything his way.
Right? Like, everything is in his favor.
And one of the things that that that
I always think about is the heavyweight,
you know, of the responsibility
on
the the husband, the the man of the
house.
And I don't know whether we think about
it that way enough.
But what would you say you wish wives
understood
about what it means to be a husband
and to be a leader?
You know, Allah
says, The term
is interpreted differently by different, people. The best
interpretation that I've come across is the word
responsible.
We men are responsible for their spouses, their
family members, and the evidence of it is
what Allah says later on that,
You know, because they are the breadwinners. They
are supposed to be,
in in the ideal Islamic way, and it's
not wrong for the for for earnings to
to come from more than one angle in
the home. But Allah says the ideal way
would have been if the man would provide
for the female, and that's how it should
have been. So because of that, Allah says
you are responsible. You should be spending. You
should be guiding. You should be
a source of protection for your family members.
You know, people look at you and they
and they wouldn't dare say,
your wife's name with me. I would go
to war.
I would literally go to war if someone
had to mess with my family. To to
be honest with you,
it's some it's like a no go area,
and and they would know. Don't you dare
say her name. You know what I mean?
Mhmm. Mhmm.
Keep her name out of your mouth.
Yeah. It's a lot of luck. Yeah. It's
it's a feeling you have, and this is
a one. This is the responsibility.
Any woman would be so proud of a
man who's ready to defend her, come what
may, sacrifice his life in order to ensure
she's okay. I mean, which woman wouldn't be
so excited with such a spouse? But the
thing is, the the the men sometimes
feel like this is,
I'm the leader of the house, so therefore,
you're gonna do what I'm gonna say. I'm
not allowing you to do this. I'm allowing
you to that's where the problem comes.
You know? It's Allah doesn't call you an
amir in order for you to just,
dish instructions that don't even make sense and
and and be unreasonable and not listen to
the people. What you must do as a
leader is listen. If the prophet sallallahu alaihi
wasallam listened to the Sahaba, and he did,
I mean, if he could do that, who
are we not to listen to our own
family members and we're not even on that
level of leadership that he was on? This
is totally different. It's a small
level. It's a very low level, but it's
still there,
where, you should listen to your family members,
listen to your children, befriend them so that
they can open up to you, but still
have the slight arm's length so that they
can respect you. And at the same time,
you must try to accommodate what they they
would like to achieve.
Because at the end of the day, they're
independent,
worshipers of Allah. They are independent. They belong
to Allah before they came to you. And
so your duty as a parent or as,
you know, as a person responsible is
to to fulfill what Allah told you to
fulfill with regards
to the this,
trust that's entrusted
to you. If you are going to,
you know,
not consider their thoughts, their feelings, their situation,
their emotions,
perhaps other factors that are affecting them, you're
not a good leader. You're not a good
leader. You're not a good Amir. So sometimes
your children go to a school, they're out
in the environment, and they're facing things that
you don't even know about because you don't
participate in their lives. And and you're trying
to,
impose upon them something that's completely contradictory
to what they're exposed to every single day.
What do you expect? I mean, this is
why
the advice would actually,
differ
based on
the exact environment you're living in if you
were a parent towards your children. If I'm
a parent, for example, living in the middle
of Mecca and another parent living in the
middle of New York, the advice this parent
is gonna be giving the child and that
one's gonna be giving the child would probably
differ because
of the environment. I mean, what this one
may or may not do will be different
from what this one may or may not
do. This is just an example. I mean,
I don't mean it exactly, but,
this is the thing that that that we're
lacking. Now before I forget, there was a
point I said I'll mention. I just remembered
it now. That was, do you know when
living in an extended family,
people actually today,
say that I don't want to live with
your with your folks. Oh, it's a deal
breaker, you know, for people nowadays. It's actually
a deal breaker. Like, the guy could be
perfect in every other way. Oh, but you
live with your parents or you need me
there? No. No. No. No. No. No.
Yes. Now now now I just wanna put
things into perspective. I understand why it's a
deal breaker,
but I would suggest and and this is
what I did yesterday to someone. I told
him, look, I think meet your in laws,
see what they're like, and you could say,
look. I'd like my separate accommodation.
I can give it a try, but you
have to promise me that if I can't
manage, then we would actually get our own
rented apartment or whatever else it may be
because I need my independence. Because I wanna
tell you, the perks of living in an
extended family far outweigh
a lot of the negatives in many cases,
especially when you have children. You know?
I know a lot of people want to
dump their kids with their grandparents, but then
you are the ones who didn't even want
to live with those grandparents. You are the
ones who didn't even want
to see them. True. True. True. You wanna
dump them there, and there they are. You
know? When you have the grandparents around, a
lot of the children grow up. You know,
now talking of the grandchildren, a lot of
the grandchildren grow up in a more beautiful
way without that much of an effort from
the parents and the deficit of
maybe their their parental presence because of work
and what what other, you know, the other
responsibilities these parents have, is not that is
not felt that much because of the extended
family. So this whole extended family, everyone happens
to be a responsible person looking out for
your child, looking out for so there are
perks. There are definitely perks, but
everything comes at a price. You need to
decide which one you want. Sometimes you're unwell
and you and you're you're, you know, you're,
not bedridden, but you're in bed. You can't
really get up and so on.
Those times, it's it's very interesting. If you
had,
the helping hand, perhaps you would be able
to
go through that with a with a greater
ease. So if you do have toxic in
laws,
then, yes, I agree. You can say, you
know, I had I had a a a,
condition that I laid with my spouses when
when I was getting married to say, listen.
My parents are amazing people. I mean, you
know them as well. Right? Yeah. Yeah. My
parents are amazing people
If at all the situation gets toxic and
you feel that you'd like to shift out,
give me 3 months and within within 90
days within the 90 days, we'll get an
apartment or we'll do something and so on.
I promise you, you know what, that that
day never came. That day never came. And
we thank Allah for that. You know, I
we my my
decision to actually shift out was made,
for for other reasons. You know? The number
of children, perhaps the household, we needed our
own place and so on, but it was
never because of a war that that I
mean, no war took place.
And we thank Allah for that. So that
was a point I thought was very important
to say that if we are,
just going to come in and say, no
way, you can't live with your parents. Sometimes
it's an only child. Sometimes the parents are
amazing people. Sometimes they will
blessings. Yeah. Yeah. They will be better than
your own parents towards you. Sometimes they I
know of in laws who don't allow,
the the daughter-in-law
or at times even the son-in-law to do
anything. They actually serve them.
Wow. Life is made so easy. So there
are people like that.
Yeah. So as much as I understand why
people say I don't want to live together,
because they hear of the bad experiences of
others. And there is a stigma, by the
way, attached to the term mother-in-law.
There is a stigma that's unfair because not
all of them are like that. I mean,
all of, all women on earth at some
point, if they've got sons, would probably have
their sons married and become mothers in law.
So the same people who who claim that,
oh, mothers in law are bad are going
to be mothers in law, and then someone
else will claim that they're bad. And in
our hearts, we always feel I feel I
want to be the best father-in-law.
I want to be
my wife would feel they want to be
the best mothers in law, for example.
And
and because of the stigma attached, you're already
on a back
foot. Yeah. No. It's true. It's true. And
I think this is an issue that I
think we have in the community, which is
that horror stories abound.
About all the things we talked about. You
know, divorce horror stories, we've got plenty of
them. Polygamy horror stories, so many of them.
In law horror stories, so many of them.
And it's they dominate the narrative.
So that as you said, now
when you think of in laws, it's an
immediate negative reaction because you've only ever heard
bad stories. So maybe, guys, if you're listening
to this,
maybe this might shift your perspective just a
little bit. I wanted to just, talk about
the issue of children and dumping them with
grandparents.
And I think that, yep, we we, you
know, we do it and and we everybody's
probably guilty of doing it. But the difference
between,
between,
children who stay with grandparents for a weekend,
for example,
and children who grow up in a multigenerational
household,
I think is very, very, very big because
when the children are there just for a
weekend, often the grandparents spoil them. Right?
Because they just want them to be happy.
You know? They they just they they and
you know grandparents, you know you're guilty of
this. You know, if the children are there,
it's yes yes everything. Give them everything because
they're going home to their parents. Right? They're
not your responsibility.
But what I've noticed in multigenerational
households is that
the children learn
that they are not the center of the
universe.
Because there are other people in the household
that maybe even require more care and concern
than they do at times.
So you see this this humility almost in
the children, this kind of respect as you
said, but also this idea that I'm part
of a whole. Right? And I also need
to accommodate somebody else. Whereas when children grow
up just with their parents, especially in the
modern
day, it's like the whole world revolves around
the children. Right? The needs of the children,
the wants of the children, the timetable of
the children, they are the center of the
parents' universe. But when the grandparents
are are living there, even if they live
there just for, like, a few weeks at
a time, you start to see the children
realize that it's not just about me. It's
not just about what I want and how
loud I want to shout and what I
want to watch on TV, for example. I
I you know, grandpa's here. Granny's there. You
know, we have to be quiet. It's grandma's
nap time. You know? Did you did you
did you see I don't know whether you've
noticed that with your own children, actually, but
I I definitely have seen it with mine.
It happened with me as well when I
was young and then later on with my
kids, definitely. And I think that the the
the character is refined a little bit more,
and I don't want to take away from
those who might not have had the situation,
but there's a greater effort required.
So, for example, if you have a single
child and like you rightly said, the world
rotates around this child. As they grow up
and get married, they'd like the spouse to
do everything to make them continue feeling the
same or more, and then your the spouse's
entire life must rotate around this particular
spouse because they grew up alone, spoilt, rotten.
I've known of cases where the mothers have
not let go of their children, male or
female, later on after marriage. And they keep
on interfering. They keep on, you know, living.
I've even heard of people, you know, older
men
not being able to sleep on on on
a bedding with their spouses, but rather with
their mothers. I mean, it's sickening sometimes what
you hear. Because from when they were young,
that's what's been happening. And it's a fact.
People complain to us, look. My husband,
he sleeps on the same bed with his
mother. I mean, are you okay?
Is is your mind fine? You know, this
is this is something unacceptable.
Even if it's just
whatever. You have a spouse, you need to
make sure that you fulfill their rights. So
there are a lot of things that happen.
So, you
know, talk about horror stories.
The horror stories regarding divorce have actually made
it such that the minute the term divorce,
is is,
heard,
people develop hate.
In Islam, we there doesn't need to be
hate with divorce.
And this is something, unfortunately, the Muslims are
struggling with because of culture.
You have,
you have if you look at the non
Muslims, sometimes they've divorced for a while, but
they're very,
they're very okay.
They they they live with each, meaning they
respect each other because of the children or
because of whatever. They wouldn't do the mudslinging
and go back and start,
speaking bad about the other one because you
know what? It's okay. It does happen. Divorces
do happen.
I think it's because of all these horror
stories and, you know,
whatever we've heard from society as well as
the cultural,
taboo and, that's perhaps people might have developed,
regarding divorce
has made them develop a hate hate. As
soon as you hear divorce, you're supposed to
cut them out, talk bad about them, never
let them see the kids, punish them by
by this way, that way. Make sure if
they want to get married again, it difficult.
These are all the the the the foot
the footprints of the devil, shaitan.
We as Muslims need to make sure that
we realize divorce can happen. It shouldn't come
about with hate. We might have disliked the
person perhaps. Maybe we just didn't get along.
Leave them, pray for them, and Allah will
grant you goodness as well.
And for that advice, I think it's very,
very apt in it. You know, to round
off, I just want to share
something that just occurred to me as we're
speaking.
We know
that our time on earth is finite, you
know, as you said, it's this short time
that we have.
And we we know that we will return
to Allah, and Allah will question us about
what we did. And we also know that
the people in our lives are.
Whether it's our spouses or our children,
you know, and and all of these people
that we are privileged
to to to care for and have responsibility
towards and have some kind of duty towards,
it's in a manner.
And I think
I wish that we leaned more into
these relationships as acts of the
rather than making it personal all the time.
Because when it's personal
and it's emotional and it's this individual I
want, I don't like, I hate, I this
and all of that,
we end up compromising
these duties that we have, compromising the responsibilities
that we have because of a personal issue.
Right?
And I wonder whether you can speak maybe
to this idea that
these are acts of a better. You know?
If you have a mother-in-law or a father-in-law
or you have a co wife or you
have an ex husband in the mix somewhere,
if there's an ex wife in the mix,
if there are stepchildren,
you know, if there are you know, all
of these relationships around you, that your good
treatment of them
is a bada, and is is is from
a place of this is a manna. Allah
has put me in relationship with this person,
then I have a duty to to to
be the best person that I can be
and give this person their rights, etcetera. I
don't know. Do you think that that that
that could be an answer to maybe getting
rid of some of all of this
that we have so much in these different
relationships?
I think you put it very beautifully. In
fact, it's it's the topic that could,
be,
of a whole lecture. And,
definitely,
we owe
them
the respect
and the fulfillment of their rights and so
on. Because I I can tell you, in
Islam, to be kind to a stranger is
so rewarding. What about those who are closer?
You know? What about those who are right
there? They say to smile at the face
of someone is an act of charity. Imagine
if that someone was your spouse, your child,
your parent. It's a double, triple charity because
that's how Islam works. You know, they say
the rights of a neighbor, and then if
the neighbor happens to be a Muslim, there's
a double right. And if they happen to
be Muslim and a relative, it's a triple
right and so on. So the same would
apply here that someone you've been with, someone
in your family, or even if it's an
ex, Like, Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala addresses some
of this and in the Quran, and he
says,
He's speaking about something else, but he says,
the point being raised is, you know, you've
been intimate with one another. You've actually lived
with one another. And and you you got
to each other with the name of Allah.
And you took you made all your promises
and your oaths. So if you were in
such a relationship with someone the day that
that might break, for example, it doesn't mean
that your Ibadah or your act of worship
of
maintaining
the the respect of this person,
should stop.
It should still continue.
SubhanAllah. Mhmm. I think you worded it very
beautifully. And in fact, I it was a
reminder for me too to say we should
look at these things as acts of worship.
I'm doing it for the pleasure of Allah.
And and and this reminds me of something
beautiful where, you know, when you read the
Quran, Allah says,
Allah loves those who do good.
Allah loves those who are kind. Allah loves
those who are, truthful and so on.
From those verses, what we learn is when
we are doing good to someone, when we
are kind towards a person, a true believer
will not just be kind because he or
she thinks that that person deserves my kindness,
But they would be kind because they believe
that Allah loves those who are kind. Hence,
I'm kind to those who are kind to
me or not kind to me. Because I'm
not doing it for them and I I
I'm doing it for Allah.
It changes the whole picture because if you
are kind to those who are kind to
you, that's a small number of people and
it's gonna be limited to just a fraction.
Yeah. That's
easy. Yeah. If you're kind to everyone because
Allah loves those who are kind, you begin
to become kind even to those who are
unkind because your smiling is with Allah. And
you tell Allah, oh Allah, look, I'm kind.
The person is unkind. I'm kind because you
said I should be. Did you see this,
oh Allah? I hope you love me as
a result of this, and he would because
he promises it and he is the fulfilling
he is the most,
you know, up honest in fulfilling his promise,
Allah. So he says, I love those who
are kind. We do it for him. We're
not doing it because we think it's only
the people who deserve our kindness.
That I think that that gives us more
than enough food for thought.
For
just, making this time for being my first
and last guest
on the, marriage conversation with Naima b Robert.
Many, many more opportunities for us to
benefit.
Our families benefit this, this
leave
for for that will benefit us
in
I don't have to ask where people should
find you. I don't have to ask how
they could reach you guys. You already know
this information. But we'll put the links below.
But if you have a piece of parting
advice or do you feel like, no, we've
we've wrapped it up quite nicely?
I think, you know what?
Perhaps I could say a word or 2.
You know, like I said right at the
beginning that when we speak on a platform
like this,
sometimes not all
the advice would be applicable in every single
circumstance and situation.
It's general. And when there is general advice,
there is or there are always exceptions.
Sometimes people take snippets out of what is
said, and they say, you see this and
you see that. I give you a little
example. One day, I got a call from
from someone saying, you know,
it's very bad what you said and what
you did. You know, my, husband wants to
follow you in this and in that. I
said, listen. I just wanna tell you something.
If he wants to follow me, let him
go and study for 14 years. Let him
serve the community for another 20 years, and
then he can do what I did. So
she was like, oh, I didn't look at
it that way. Yeah. You're right. That's a
good one. You know? So I I was
just trying to him. I say, you burned
him. You burned him. You burned him.
Yeah. That's a verb.
The sister to say, listen. I didn't tell
him to do this. I mean, if I
did something, I it's not like I told
him. Maybe in his circumstance, it wouldn't fit
and so on. So sometimes we talk about
things, and,
people listen to it with a different ear.
Some people listen to it in order to
criticize someone else. If that's the case, we're
not gonna benefit. When you hear what we
say, think about how it applies to you.
That's when you will benefit. When you listen
to something with the ear of,
trying to pick,
points where you can bash someone else, you're
never gonna benefit from, something like this. So
that that's a very interesting point, I think,
towards the end of this program.
100%.
And I remember as well, everybody who's watching
this and every other episode of the marriage
conversation,
we all
we all perceive with our own lens.
So as you said, Mufti,
some advice will make so much sense to
you because of how you are processing it.
And other pieces of advice, they will make
it'll make no sense to you because of
your your own perception. So,
let's have
of our brothers and sisters, and let's, you
know, take the what did they say? Eat
the meat and spit out the bones. Something
like that.
There is there's one more thing that just
came to my mind now.
For example, when you have, questions on marriage
and so on, you know, different people answer
differently. You have some,
some men who are hardcore, you know, and
they they have this,
mentality
that might not be wrong, but it's very
different based on their culture and their experiences.
So they might come up with something
very difficult, and then you find someone who's
extremely soft in nature coming with the the
other side of it, and perhaps someone in
the middle who's a little bit balanced. But
it's interesting to listen to all of them
in order to be able to see what
goodness you can take from each one.
And and that's also a a very interesting
point. People look at me as as a
very soft natured person. Trust me, when you're
talking to people in Dawah, you've got to
be a little bit, you know, more,
easy going with the guys. But in your
own life, you can be hard on yourself,
and and that's how I have taken it.
Some don't like that approach at all. And
and you know what? They're not wrong, but
it's just a different approach. So perhaps some
might benefit from that approach. May Allah bless
us all.
Thank you so much. Guys, you know what
to do. Like, comment, subscribe, share this with
somebody else that would benefit,
And don't forget to tune in for the
next episode of the marriage conversation with Naima
b Robert. And may Allah bless every single
one of you in your families, in your
endeavors, and we'll see you on the next
one inshallah.