Economic Challenges For Muslims In America

share this pageShare Page
Jamal Badawi

Channel: Jamal Badawi

Episode Notes

Episode Transcript

© No part of this transcript may be copied or referenced or transmitted in any way whatsoever. Transcripts are auto-generated and thus will be be inaccurate. We are working on a system to allow volunteers to edit transcripts in a controlled system.


00:00:15--> 00:00:24

Apply the mean question in a law when you sign in I should only say that I want to be no Have you been a Mohammed a rasulillah

00:00:25--> 00:00:35

MBA USA mursaleen a lot more suddenly was hidden Amanda up Dakota's really gonna be you can meet Mohammed and sallallahu alayhi wa sallam while early. He was so happy

00:00:37--> 00:00:48

to be here alimak watashi wa sallahu kita book. What are the loving man said that in Abu Bakr and Omar Omar Osman Ali Mohammed Sahaba to remain Anita vino

00:00:49--> 00:00:54

niomi Deen My dear brothers and sisters in Islam salaam aleikum wa rahmatullah wa barakato.

00:00:56--> 00:01:12

And my sincere thanks to the organizers, and to you for the privilege you give me to share a few humble thoughts about the economic challenge of Muslims in North American.

00:01:14--> 00:01:24

The topic is part of a general theme of this conference, Muslims from survival to success.

00:01:25--> 00:01:32

It is therefore natural to begin by shedding some light on the terms we are using.

00:01:33--> 00:01:36

What is survival? And what is success?

00:01:38--> 00:01:40

What do we mean when we speak about survival?

00:01:42--> 00:01:46

Are we talking about physiological survival of the species?

00:01:47--> 00:01:55

In the same way we speak about the survival of sharks, elephants, hummingbirds and crocodiles?

00:01:56--> 00:02:00

Where do you have lots or abundance of that here in Florida.

00:02:02--> 00:02:13

And then what is the end of this survival for any particular generation of animals, or humans or Muslims, for that matters?

00:02:15--> 00:02:17

The cycle of life takes its course.

00:02:19--> 00:02:20

And

00:02:21--> 00:02:23

the generation is gone.

00:02:24--> 00:02:28

Like Sheikh Mohammed was early May Allah forgive him and bless his soul.

00:02:30--> 00:02:32

Once likened life

00:02:33--> 00:02:37

to a conveyor belt that's moving slowly,

00:02:38--> 00:02:40

on one end of the conveyor belt, people are born.

00:02:42--> 00:02:55

And they keep running the crowd for some time, but they keep running, they run and the conveyor belt is moving. And at one point of time, at the end, they fall into their graves and another group

00:02:56--> 00:03:01

is dropped in the beginning of the conveyor belt, what a description.

00:03:03--> 00:03:04

It follows then,

00:03:05--> 00:03:26

that the survival through survival of Muslims is the survival of the message they carry, and the continuation to perform the duties entrusted to them to be the trustees of Allah on earth, and the witnesses over mankind.

00:03:28--> 00:03:41

And if facing economic challenges is seen only as a means of achieving those responsibilities, then be it good.

00:03:43--> 00:03:45

The second term success,

00:03:46--> 00:03:55

what do you mean by success? We have successful Muslims in North America wealth,

00:03:56--> 00:03:59

power and influence, fame and prominence.

00:04:01--> 00:04:06

Then, the question is, like the same question raised about survival,

00:04:07--> 00:04:09

what is the end

00:04:10--> 00:04:13

and ultimate goal of that success?

00:04:15--> 00:04:19

Suppose Muslims in North America become the most wealthy,

00:04:20--> 00:04:22

the most influential, so what?

00:04:23--> 00:04:24

For what purpose?

00:04:26--> 00:04:30

If power and wealth are ends,

00:04:32--> 00:04:33

then we are in trouble.

00:04:34--> 00:04:39

If we see power and wealth as means to more noble ends,

00:04:40--> 00:04:43

and the same way that the wealth of Abdul Rahman

00:04:45--> 00:04:54

and Othman of na fan were used to help Muslims, then this is the kind of success we're talking about.

00:04:55--> 00:04:59

If we look into the Quran, in my humble understanding, the closest

00:05:00--> 00:05:04

term to success in the Quran is Fela.

00:05:06--> 00:05:08

How does the Quran describe success or failure?

00:05:09--> 00:05:14

Just two samples with de la la la come to flee Hoon

00:05:16--> 00:05:24

to be conscious of Allah to fear Allah to love Allah. These are all meanings that goes with taqwa. It's not just one, fear, love

00:05:25--> 00:05:25

and

00:05:27--> 00:05:29

feeling of the Presence of Allah

00:05:30--> 00:05:46

is the key to follow to success. But even when the Quran goes from the generalities, to specifics to define Fela you look at the beginning of Sora to noon the 23rd surah in the Quran.

00:05:47--> 00:05:47

Are they

00:05:49--> 00:05:54

successful indeed. Are the believers and what descriptions are given?

00:05:55--> 00:06:05

It did not say that f la hora Somali une our lista rocky Yun I will have Nia or Matera foon did not say the successful are those who are capitalists,

00:06:06--> 00:06:17

industrial magnets. What is Fela described here, Moon believers first with all the description that goes with him and that's not the main topic.

00:06:18--> 00:06:18

But then

00:06:20--> 00:06:21

the characteristics of Fela,

00:06:22--> 00:07:01

they are humble in their prayers. They are the ones who keep away from vain talk. Lissa catifa, not big pays okay did is didn't sell is the Cathy Deaf your own zakka actually means purification, they pre purifying themselves, which include also purifying wealth, by things again chestatee, guarding the chestatee fulfilling the promises. Only then it says that ecohome would worry soon. And Lavina very soon. And for those of you who are in this are indeed the heirs who will inherit the Fidelis the paradise in which they dwell in forever.

00:07:03--> 00:07:05

But then a third observation

00:07:06--> 00:07:17

What does that all mean? And why should the topic on economic challenge begin with shedding light on the terms survival and success?

00:07:20--> 00:07:44

Does that mean that the economic prosperity of Muslims as individuals or communities in North America is irrelevant? unimportant? The answer? Of course not. Allah subhana wa tada sees in the Quran. What could you wish to see? In a hula hoop ooh Safin, Coleman huruma Xena de la isla de afra. Delivered he.

00:07:46--> 00:07:57

Allah says eat and drink and commit no excesses. Allah doesn't love those who commit excesses. And then says who say who has forbidden or made haram for people?

00:07:59--> 00:08:03

The good adornment and hold something that he made for his servant.

00:08:04--> 00:08:08

The Prophet sallallahu wasallam says natural medicine none of the sudden

00:08:09--> 00:08:16

what is better than good? That means pure wealth for a person who's also a pious person.

00:08:18--> 00:08:22

In the advice given to Korra or qarun

00:08:23--> 00:08:24

most likely the biblical Quran.

00:08:27--> 00:08:31

The Quran says approvingly, webtv femur attack Allah who

00:08:32--> 00:08:38

will attend Santa ceiba kameena dunya we're asking, Can I stand alone, like what I said,

00:08:40--> 00:08:40

in a lie that you

00:08:42--> 00:08:45

seek in what Allah has bestowed upon you, the hereafter.

00:08:46--> 00:08:59

But that's not all. And forget not your share in this life. Be good as Allah has been good to you, and seek no mischief on Earth. For Allah doesn't love those mischief doors.

00:09:01--> 00:09:10

It follows then, that the purpose of that introduction is to put our topic in proper perspective.

00:09:11--> 00:09:12

More specifically,

00:09:13--> 00:09:28

that we cannot on economic issues, begin from the reality the situation we're living in, and then go backwards to try and find some justification in Sharia.

00:09:30--> 00:09:32

Example, a typical example.

00:09:33--> 00:09:37

I might be losing some customers if I don't sell beer in my store.

00:09:38--> 00:09:53

Then it is the duty of Muslim scholars to find him find me some custom made fatwah that would get me out of that mess and guarantee that I'd make the maximum profit I can make.

00:09:55--> 00:09:59

But this does not mean however, that the realities of life

00:10:00--> 00:10:22

If it's something that has absolutely nothing to do with Sharia, otherwise the rule of Aurora, absolute necessities would not have been there in Sharia realities of life. real problems faced by people has something to do with Sharia. There's no question about that. But we have to put things in the right orders.

00:10:23--> 00:10:31

We don't begin from this realities and demand that Islam should accommodate the kind of profits that we want, and the kind of life we perceive.

00:10:33--> 00:10:53

But we begin from what Allah wants from us, what the limits that he set for us, go back and check that reality. And then try to see if within the rules of Sharia there could be some accommodation, and how far can that accommodation be made without trespassing? The limits of Allah subhanaw taala.

00:10:55--> 00:10:59

The approach for presentation inshallah will be

00:11:00--> 00:11:09

by taking at least three major challenges, elaborating on them a little bit, not much, and then take six other areas rather quickly.

00:11:11--> 00:11:12

And each of the major ones,

00:11:14--> 00:11:18

we begin inshallah, with the statement, first of the type of challenge.

00:11:19--> 00:11:40

Secondly, to follow the same methodology suggested to find what are the Sharia limits? What is there in the Quran and Sunnah about those challenges? And thirdly, how can we deal with that situation? If it is not an ideal situation? What alternatives might be available in the short term? And hopefully also, in the long term?

00:11:41--> 00:11:43

The three areas

00:11:45--> 00:12:09

is selling things that are forbidden, the question of rubber, and the question of insurance, and then there'll be a few more issues. Maybe I mentioned them from now so that you can get your questions ready, because I tried to be as brief as I could. So that an issue like that could be covered more with questions. I intend to inshallah also to talk very briefly, on the issue of the

00:12:12--> 00:12:18

the rubber being part of lots of other dealings other than the direct dealings,

00:12:19--> 00:12:23

the issue of saving plans matched by the employers,

00:12:25--> 00:12:34

pension, student loans, brokerage fees, working in insurance companies or banks,

00:12:35--> 00:12:44

and the issue of interests that is accrued on one's account in the bank. But let me begin first with the first major issue.

00:12:46--> 00:12:47

What is haram? And what is halal?

00:12:48--> 00:12:49

The typical questions?

00:12:52--> 00:12:53

How could I have a source

00:12:55--> 00:12:59

without selling things that would attract customers

00:13:00--> 00:13:07

like swine meat, beer, wine, or having lottery tickets sold.

00:13:09--> 00:13:12

And if you don't sell those things, customers won't come?

00:13:14--> 00:13:26

Because these are the things that attract people to come and buy from me. So by cutting off these things, I'm cutting off also lots of other customers who might buy otherwise health stuff.

00:13:28--> 00:13:36

How could I get a franchise when the franchise requires me to sell beer or pork?

00:13:37--> 00:13:39

I be losing customers this way.

00:13:42--> 00:13:46

Now, is that a problem? It sure is a problem.

00:13:47--> 00:13:50

But let us begin again with the second question.

00:13:52--> 00:14:00

On each of these topics, what are the rules of Sharia? First of all, what is this in the Quran and Sunnah about

00:14:01--> 00:14:02

can a Muslim sell

00:14:04--> 00:14:06

forbidden things under any circumstances?

00:14:07--> 00:14:21

The answer come in the Hadith of the Prophet salallahu alayhi Salat as narrated both in Ahmed and Abu Dawood in the law is a Hydra machine and how to run a seminar. If Allah forbid something, he also forbade eating its price.

00:14:22--> 00:14:31

So it's not the issue of eating pork, but eating the money resulting from setting pork.

00:14:33--> 00:14:37

In another Hadith narrated both in Bukhari and Muslim, the highest authenticity,

00:14:38--> 00:14:42

and Mullah with a pseudo hadramawt Alhambra when maita will hit zero and Islam.

00:14:43--> 00:14:49

Allah Subhana Allah and His Messenger made it unlawful to sell intoxicants

00:14:50--> 00:14:54

animals that die without proper slaughtered

00:14:55--> 00:14:59

swine meat and statues or items.

00:15:01--> 00:15:10

In another hedis narrated booth in a tirmidhi and new measure and it was reported that the word generators are thought they are trusted ones.

00:15:11--> 00:15:14

Learn and abuse Allah love and he was elemental comedy Ashleigh

00:15:15--> 00:15:34

Sarah hamato Sara, Sherry Bahama moolah de la wasapi ha ha ha. Oculus Amanda. Well Mr De La one Mustafa tala. That means the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam has cursed in intoxicants. 10 means 10 categories.

00:15:36--> 00:15:42

The one who makes it, and the one who wanted make or had it, had it, have it made,

00:15:44--> 00:16:04

and the person who drink it, the person who carry it, the person to whom it's carried, the person who gave it to other to drink, the one who sells it, the one who eats its price, the one who buy it, and the person to whom it is purchased. A person wanted to give a gift to the Prophet sallallahu wasallam

00:16:07--> 00:16:08

of wine

00:16:10--> 00:16:18

it's a very strange gift. Then the Prophet sallallahu Sallam said in the la hora Maha Allah made it forbidden and unlawful.

00:16:20--> 00:16:21

So the man said,

00:16:22--> 00:16:25

If Allah should I then sell it?

00:16:26--> 00:16:31

The prophet SAW sell and say in a levy Hari Rama shorba hari Rama Vega.

00:16:33--> 00:16:44

The one who forbade and made it unlawful to drink is the one who made it unlawful to eat its price or to sell anything that needs to be more clear than this.

00:16:46--> 00:16:55

Then the man said a fella Academy will be halia Who should I just give it as a gift to Jews? Maybe that was in Medina, so they drink it anyway.

00:16:56--> 00:17:08

The Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam said in the levy her Rama ha ha Rama and your kurama Vidya who's the one who made it unlawful made it unlawful to give it as a gift to the Jews.

00:17:10--> 00:17:15

The man said What should I do with it? Call us And mahalo. That means spill it on the ground.

00:17:16--> 00:17:17

That's the way to deal with it.

00:17:20--> 00:17:32

To be more specific Now, how does that apply to contemporary life of people are Muslim doing businesses. One a Muslim is not supposed to be selling

00:17:33--> 00:17:36

pork meat, whether in the form of meat,

00:17:37--> 00:17:39

ham sandwiches,

00:17:40--> 00:17:43

or products that carry

00:17:45--> 00:17:50

the major parts of it as pork like pizza with pork, pepperoni or salami.

00:17:52--> 00:17:58

Secondly, it is unlawful for a Muslim who fear Allah subhana wa Taala.

00:17:59--> 00:18:27

To sell any intoxicant in any form. And by the way, they were hammered in the Quran does not mean wine This is mistranslation. Hummer is as Amara de la Han, who had this natural talent of the language understood it when he said Alhambra. Martha merlok come is anything that clouds the mind. So whether it's hard liquor, beer, smoking, marijuana,

00:18:28--> 00:18:56

smoking, whatever banana, LSD crack units would fall within the same thing and the profits are so limited quite clear as narrated in Ahmed and Abu Dawood and tirmidhi masskara kathira who follow her on anything, where if you take a large amount would cause you to be intoxicated even a small amount is also Haram. The more and more Hadees on that subject, a third application

00:18:57--> 00:19:00

that selling not only taking selling

00:19:01--> 00:19:13

any intoxicant is unlawfulness Well, firstly, that selling lottery tickets, whether it is government lottery or any other type of lottery

00:19:14--> 00:19:18

is haram. In fact, it is mentioned in Surah tilma. He then sort of five and a

00:19:19--> 00:19:40

90 and on Yeah, you are Latina Amano in Amman kamaru al maseeh to an unsolvable Islam origin in amadis a time for just any word Allah come to fly home, that intoxicants and gambling and other aspects of the pagan practice of the Arabs is of the deeds of shaitan you should avoid it or keep away from it that you may achieve success.

00:19:42--> 00:19:43

Number five.

00:19:44--> 00:19:49

Living in North America again we know that there are other aspects as well that are Haram.

00:19:50--> 00:19:59

It is not lawful for a Muslim to sell or rent videos and you know what I mean by that video tapes

00:20:00--> 00:20:13

10 things that are contrary to Sharia, not only x rated type of videos, but things that are semi x as well, even if they are imported from the so called Muslim world

00:20:17--> 00:20:27

Carioca and all this other stuff that comes from the so called Muslim countries with the belly dances and all of that and say no, no, I'm getting in front of a Muslim country, it's gonna be Haram.

00:20:28--> 00:20:36

It is not lawful for a Muslim to sell anything that is worshipped. Instead of beside Allah subhana wa tada

00:20:37--> 00:20:40

a person, a Muslim who sells

00:20:42--> 00:20:55

articles like crosses the statue of Mary, may Allah be pleased with her, or any other object that some people are used by way of adoration and worship, would be obvious to her as well.

00:20:57--> 00:20:58

Then,

00:20:59--> 00:21:03

again, we come back to the question that many people will be pressing,

00:21:05--> 00:21:06

we will lose customers,

00:21:07--> 00:21:09

we'll be losing customers.

00:21:10--> 00:21:18

But again, sometimes we forget that it is not the customer who gave us risk. It is Allah who gives us risk through customs.

00:21:21--> 00:21:30

And let me tell you a little story that happened with me. Many years back, I forget how long 1015 years I was giving a lecture in Denver.

00:21:31--> 00:21:37

And one brother there had a store, sandwich store in a very strategic location in downtown.

00:21:39--> 00:21:44

And he was doing about right because lots of employees come during lunch hour to buy sandwich, we'll have some drinks.

00:21:46--> 00:21:59

And then he said, I feel guilty. He said, Why brother? He said, because I have lots of good things, juices and sandwiches. But some people come and ask for, you know, ham sandwiches and occasionally beer. And I feel bad about it.

00:22:00--> 00:22:03

I remind that the brother said Allah gives risk.

00:22:05--> 00:22:07

Say What should I do? I said you focus on quality.

00:22:08--> 00:22:16

And if somebody asked for a ham sandwich, say, I'm sorry, I don't have but have delicious Turkey, this or that. Make sure that you have really good food,

00:22:17--> 00:22:25

diversify, have lots of attractive types of juices range of that. And try it depends on our launch right?

00:22:27--> 00:22:44

At the beginning, he sounded like, This man doesn't know what he's talking about. He doesn't know the realities of business. But later on, he told me that I kept thinking that it's not practical. But then I said one time, let me try it. And then he said, in no time, his business even went up

00:22:45--> 00:22:48

from the Baraka of dealing with heroin.

00:22:49--> 00:22:50

But

00:22:51--> 00:23:35

you might get some people who say that I tried that, and I only got, you know, that loss, got losses, I have less income, I have less profit. But suppose even you don't have the same situation like that brother in Denver. Again, this comes from Allah, and what would we do? If Allah subhanaw taala punishes us? suffice. Allah forbid that the person gets a serious disease. And all those 10s of 1000s of dollars are spent in no time might cost $2,000 just for one night and hospital. What's the benefit? And above all, if we think long term, how would that affect our well being in front of Allah subhanaw taala? In the ultimate Day of Judgment?

00:23:36--> 00:23:42

The question of franchise is difficult. I admit, I know one brother system asked the question last night.

00:23:44--> 00:23:51

And not all franchises are the same. I heard of some cases with some of the less known franchises where

00:23:52--> 00:23:59

a Muslim demanded and he said, You know, I cannot sell these items I could sell or other sandwiches, but not this item.

00:24:00--> 00:24:07

They first and argued But finally, in few cases, they exceeded and made exception.

00:24:08--> 00:24:09

But of course, I'm not talking

00:24:11--> 00:24:26

in vacuum. And I do know that there are some franchises where they would be very, very strict about their products. If you want to get a franchise like on the submarine sandwiches, or McDonald's or Burger King or Burger King or whatever.

00:24:28--> 00:24:44

They are very strict on that because they make national advertisement of their products, some of which contain pork. And it's very, very difficult for them, really to give exception, even if the marketing manager might, might be willing to do this. It's very hard.

00:24:45--> 00:24:50

But of course, we can say that long term. If Muslims unite together

00:24:52--> 00:25:00

a sort of coalition of Muslim business persons and the continent and keep writing and pushing those

00:25:00--> 00:25:31

Big franchises made the could make ultimately in the future not saying this will happen immediately. franchise contract A and B, giving some concession to Muslims and possibly Muslims and Jews for that matter. This is an area where some cooperation even could be productive. I know some of you might say this is not realistic, but only two days ago, two days ago, we received a letter in the Islamic information foundation and had effects based on a big fight that some sisters I give credit to the sisters actually

00:25:32--> 00:25:36

had with the Tim Hortons doughnuts.

00:25:37--> 00:25:44

After oftentimes, we used to ask them, is there any large in the Tim Horton products?

00:25:45--> 00:25:46

But they were evasive.

00:25:47--> 00:26:22

They used to say, Oh, no, no, the if we fry it in pure vegetable oil. And some people took that as a sufficient answer. I mean, though fried in vegetable Oh, what's what's the problem with though, but to their misfortune, one of those sisters who happen to have a degree in nutrition. And she knows also that the mixes even the flour could be mixed with with other products like fat. So ask them specifically about that. They were evasive, and they were lots of battles that went on for several months, several months.

00:26:23--> 00:26:36

And ultimately, the letter we received two days ago, that effective immediately. Tim Hortons doughnuts, I don't know whether it operates in the United States does, it operates in Canada,

00:26:37--> 00:27:17

effective immediately, all their big products will be free from any pork products, even the glazing, some people will not even notice that the glazing would also be free of any pork products, and they expect the unwillingness to accommodate major religious groups in this country. So, this is something that may not take place immediately, but we can work towards but if and Muslim investors think that a franchise is better for him, at the expense of his Dean or her Dean, then maybe they should try some other business they can start independent business, if they could.

00:27:18--> 00:27:27

Let me come to another issue without doing much questions about my deal with the particulars as we move on, and then pass the questions so that you can study them.

00:27:31--> 00:27:34

The issue of of river

00:27:36--> 00:27:37

and the typical question

00:27:41--> 00:27:45

nothing in this country is free of river even in some Muslim countries they deal with river

00:27:47--> 00:27:56

is river the same as interest? How is defined How could we really live our lives here? When river is all around us?

00:27:58--> 00:28:08

It is a challenge. But again, the second typical question, what are the limits of Allah? What is the beginning point the Quran and Sunnah first.

00:28:09--> 00:28:10

And in the Quran we read

00:28:12--> 00:28:20

Yeah, you're Latina, Amano Taka la hora de Roma Bucky a minute river in Quinta mini Salem pasado then we'll be heard of him and Allah who are surely

00:28:21--> 00:28:24

will interpret them fellow Comoros American, not only moon Allah

00:28:26--> 00:28:39

or believers, Fear Allah and leave whatever remained of Riba. And we'll come to the definition later. If indeed you are believers, if you don't be notified,

00:28:41--> 00:28:45

of award to be waged against you by Allah and His messenger.

00:28:47--> 00:28:58

Man, these are powerful terms. Are they Herberman Allah what is really a war waged by Allah and His messenger? Can we after that trivialize

00:28:59--> 00:29:08

the issue of river how many times in the Quran does it say be notified of a war against you by Allah and His messengers?

00:29:10--> 00:29:16

Then we read alladhina Kuru in a rebel, Hakuna Illa camellia como la via Tabata, shaitana anonymous.

00:29:17--> 00:29:24

Those who devour river do not stand, except as one who's touched by Satan stance,

00:29:25--> 00:29:28

and that come to the rest of the Iona come to another point.

00:29:29--> 00:29:41

But then a number of questions sometimes are raised. So right. Nobody denies the Quran and Hadees that amplify what the Quran says about river

00:29:42--> 00:29:43

but

00:29:44--> 00:29:47

is rubber the same as interest.

00:29:50--> 00:29:54

The reason for that confusion that in the English dictionary,

00:29:55--> 00:30:00

there is a difference between usury and interest and usually

00:30:00--> 00:30:14

is simply defined as exaggerated or excessive interest. Whereas interested just reasonable one 6% 8% but usually acting like a shark, 100% and 50% and all of that.

00:30:16--> 00:30:23

And what some of the people who make this argument forget that the Quran was not revealed in the English language.

00:30:26--> 00:30:36

And the Oxford dictionary or Webster's dictionary are not an argument to explain what the Quran says because it is not an English. The Quran was revealed in Arabic,

00:30:37--> 00:30:41

the language it happens to be the language of the Prophet of Allah and His people.

00:30:43--> 00:30:50

Which means that objectively speaking, we have to go to that language and find to what the word river mean.

00:30:51--> 00:31:19

There is no distinction in the Quran between ribbon interest, river come from Yarbrough, which means increase and in fact you find that term used in the Quran. In the in a verb form, yum Papa LaHood river where you will be sadhaka you'll be from which can the word ribbon you will be sadaqa Allah increase means increase the reward or Baraka of sadaqa of charity.

00:31:20--> 00:31:26

Well, meditator, milliband yoruba myt, Nassif, Allah, Yoruba and Allah again in the verb Belgians or form,

00:31:28--> 00:32:06

that whatever the take from the property of people to increase, that this will not increase in the sight of Allah. So whatever means something that would increase means any increment over and above the capital without participation fully in profit and loss. A second question? Yes, wait a minute, but maybe the Quran here speaks about exploitation. But when the bank gives me interest on my deposit, it is not really exploitation. Because the bank, the bank uses my money, lend it to others, they make their own cuts and profits, and they take part of that.

00:32:08--> 00:32:14

So what's wrong with that? Is that a new argument? We think it's new. It's not

00:32:15--> 00:32:36

look at the Quran and what it says about it. Then it can be unknown called enamel bahrami slow river, what a hell Allah ha ha ha Rama River. That is because they said commerce or trade is like River. But Allah made commerce or trade permissible and made river unlawful.

00:32:39--> 00:32:39

Another question,

00:32:41--> 00:32:42

some people say look,

00:32:43--> 00:33:06

even if you look in the forum itself, you find that what is forbidden is excessive labor. Not the small one, not the 6%. Why are because they say you are Latina, Emmanuella Taku river of our fun muda or takala don't devour rubber, often, twice and thrice multiplied.

00:33:08--> 00:33:11

But there is a little linguistic problem here.

00:33:13--> 00:33:22

Because they say all right, 6%, even over three, four years, would not even come to 100% of the principle. So is that alpha modified or not?

00:33:23--> 00:33:28

But the Quran did not say don't eat the principal and river of alpha alpha.

00:33:29--> 00:33:48

It says the river the excess, which means the first year the excess is 6%. The second year even if you pay some installment, the excess is another 5%. So over 1015 years, it is an alpha alpha, is it not? The river itself, the river pert, over the number of years is alpha.

00:33:50--> 00:34:12

But more importantly than this argument, in fact, is that this is a figure of speech in the Quran, which is meant to drive to make things look bad in the eyes of people not to say that a small amount is permissible. For example, when for example, the Quran says lead to Cree who fanatical Marlon Pillai in errata, Hassan don't force

00:34:13--> 00:34:34

your girls in prostitution, if they want to remain chaste. That means if they don't want to remain chaste, it's okay to have prostitution as a trade obviously not but to show how bad it is, how bad it is, does not mean that smaller amount is tolerated or accepted.

00:34:35--> 00:34:38

Now we come to the realities applications.

00:34:39--> 00:34:40

What can a Muslim do?

00:34:41--> 00:34:42

Well, first of all,

00:34:43--> 00:34:47

the thing that should be definitely avoided are bonds.

00:34:48--> 00:34:50

Not talking about shares bonds,

00:34:51--> 00:34:59

whether they are company bonds or government bonds, because the whole idea of a bond really is basically alone and there is a certain interest at

00:35:00--> 00:35:20

is guaranteed. And anything even that is variable interest still around because it's interest that say it could be according to the market, the market rate is 7% 8% 6%. It's still rubber. Because there is no gap there is there is no participation in profit and loss is simply guaranteed.

00:35:21--> 00:35:24

But then two questions may arise.

00:35:25--> 00:35:28

How about buying a cash or equipment?

00:35:30--> 00:35:32

If you don't have the money in cash,

00:35:34--> 00:35:45

from an Islamic perspective, which I hope also is a practical perspective, let me put it this way, obviously. And frankly, when you say, I have to go to the bank to borrow

00:35:46--> 00:35:51

18,000 bucks to buy, whatever, a gym truck or whatever.

00:35:54--> 00:35:59

First of all, if you don't have the money in cash, do you really need to buy an expensive new car?

00:36:01--> 00:36:05

If you're in the beginning of your careers, and you haven't got much money, you haven't saved enough?

00:36:06--> 00:36:10

can you do for the time being with public transport until you save enough money.

00:36:11--> 00:36:39

But some people will say I work out of town, it's very difficult to get public transport I need to occur to have shopping and also other things. So the next question, can you do for the time being with a good used car, I'm not saying a lemon that you spend on it. Many times what you paid for some of you might have had that experience, I did one time, if you get a reasonably good used car. And as you know, after three years, the price would really go down quite a bit.

00:36:40--> 00:36:45

Can you do with that until you save enough to buy a better car, in cash.

00:36:46--> 00:36:51

But even if you have to, and you don't have the money, and you don't have any person to give you

00:36:52--> 00:36:59

a part of the lesson, which could have been could be done through the various Islamic centers or communities.

00:37:00--> 00:37:47

Is there any way of buying a car? Well, your brothers and sisters in Toronto already developed the system for carbine, you can contact them for details, but in essence, they used one fatwah that while some scholars did not agree with that, some scholars believe that unbearable agent may be added to summon that selling for a term with the increase in price is permissible in Sharia. That means I want to buy this house for now, if I have to pay cash, I have to pay 100,000. If I pay on installments over five years or later, or pay you after five years, then it's 115. For example, why did I have some reservations on that, because again, it, it might have some element of similarity

00:37:47--> 00:37:58

with rubber, but at least for the intellectual honesty that even though I'm not comfortable with it, at least the there's room for that in, amongst some jurist.

00:37:59--> 00:38:40

So what they do is to let you shop around to find the car that you like most, they buy it, and then they made an make an agreement with you to resell it to you at a higher price, in return for that for payment on installments or later payment. Again, like I said, you might say what's the difference? It's not exactly the same. Like when you buy from the car dealer, who tells you openly the market price is 7.8%. say they have the tables amortized over so many months, this is what you're supposed to pay. This is a different concept to some degree. That is if need be. How about the big problem of buying homes?

00:38:42--> 00:38:51

It's very difficult, especially with the skyrocketing prices of home for anyone to to buy in cash. You've got to be a millionaire to do that. It's very, very hard to do.

00:38:56--> 00:39:01

The answer to that question, in fact comes from reality. And some of you might have been exposed to that already.

00:39:02--> 00:39:06

As early as I think was 1982.

00:39:08--> 00:39:12

As part of the Islamic series teaching, the brother Mooji prefer to

00:39:14--> 00:39:18

which is now available. album five of the Islamic teaching series.

00:39:21--> 00:39:25

A very simple idea was presented basic notion or concept

00:39:27--> 00:39:44

for people who want to buy home and the model actually was designed without any ambition, even at the time of having a cooperative, or big organization. It is a model that can work even among a few people. And in fact, it was implemented in Halifax on two homes very successfully.

00:39:46--> 00:39:52

And the idea basically is that you want to buy a home that's worth, let's say, 150,000. You've got only

00:39:53--> 00:39:57

one third of that just to make it easy. So you need another 100,000

00:39:58--> 00:40:00

and you find a number

00:40:00--> 00:40:10

Muslim who wants to invest their money in some halal projects, you divide the value of your home into shares. So 150,000 means 150 shares $1,000 each,

00:40:11--> 00:40:17

you get one brother or sister want to invest 1015 five, so you collect the amount and pay it all in full.

00:40:18--> 00:40:18

Okay?

00:40:20--> 00:40:26

Those contributors, for the time being are co owners of that house according to the the shares,

00:40:27--> 00:40:31

then the CO owners agree to rent that house to you.

00:40:32--> 00:40:40

And a fair rental value. And I'm not going in details, we can discuss it that in question answer period. And the program, there's one hour description in the tapes, how could it work

00:40:42--> 00:41:15

rented to you, which means that the value of rent will be divided between you as a co owner, yourself, future owner of the house and others, but then you're allowed to buy back some of your shares. So as time goes on, your shares will go up your equity. So instead of having 50 shares, you will have 5560 and so on, which means also that your share of the rent would be higher, their share would be lower until you fully pay for the house. At that time when the idea was presented. Nobody even could think

00:41:16--> 00:41:46

that your brothers and Trento Mashallah have taken the basic concept and developed it in a full fledged Islamic housing cooperative that now has more than 250 homes, hundreds, I've gone through it more than 250 homes. And it's not really that big cooperative as such, but it is sizable in one sense. But that shows the success in a span of maybe 10 to 15 years, the dividend

00:41:47--> 00:42:11

to my recollection, never went below something like 7% or seven 7.2 like last year 8%, the maximum one year 20 10%. But of course now with overhead, you could expect between seven to 8%. That's not determined in advance this is shares in the rental value. So there is no connection with with interest here.

00:42:13--> 00:42:16

So this is another thing you can establish a cooperative housing here.

00:42:17--> 00:42:30

I know that the MSI Muslim saving and investment tried that but perhaps they got into some other business that put them in some problems, but I think there's a potential for that it could be even independent it could be even among a few people

00:42:31--> 00:42:36

who can come together to help each other with this. Like in Egypt they used to have the system because of

00:42:38--> 00:43:00

the safety by the guy like Gmail you know this this caption speak like that a gummy You know, it is the when the we used to have that system that everybody pays some saving every month, and then give the entire amount to one person might need to buy something. So it comes in turns depending on the need. So you can have come here to if you want to.

00:43:01--> 00:43:02

Alright.

00:43:04--> 00:43:09

I must bring to your attention. One thing that some people also might have misconstrued

00:43:11--> 00:43:25

of a fatwa that was issued by the fatwa commission in Kuwait, in response to a question that was directed by Sheikh Mohammed and hannity, I read the fatwa, you read the text of the question and the first one.

00:43:26--> 00:43:47

And the question that janotti asked it, he said, in this country, people are reluctant to rent to people with large families, something to that effect. And he said the person might have a large number of kids and cannot find a place or could be thrown out in the street and you can't live in the street. On the basis of that.

00:43:48--> 00:44:15

The Federalist said that, as you know, in Sharia, there are three categories, there is the rut that has had yet and that is passing yet adesina that means in the degree of need of people, there are the Rudra which has been absolute necessity, like life saving things. That's why the Quran for example, allowed eating pork, if a person is going to die unless he eats that's the only food available absolute necessity or using

00:44:16--> 00:44:59

some form of anesthesia for operations, whatever that's for saving person's life or in saving the person from injury or extended disease, but this is the highest and then there is hajia things that are needed highly by people. It is not a life saving situation but things without which people will find that the rights are very very constrained. Like a person for example, in Florida having to live in a tent where you can do it in Florida but come to Nova Scotia, you will finish to this it becomes the router. So in other words, people also need certain things that might not be absolutely needed, but absence of which make the load very constrained and the Quran says may

00:45:00--> 00:45:33

Allahu Allah, Allah, Allah, Allah doesn't want to put you because of the practice of your faith in undue harsh difficulty. But then is there is bassinet having a better car, you know, enjoying myself and all of this this additional things that take only a third. So basically, I give that introduction to give the rationale of the fact that they say, in that case, it becomes hard yet, if a person's life becomes very difficult and unable to find an appropriate place to accommodate his children, and cannot live in the street in that case,

00:45:35--> 00:45:37

you know, the concession was given.

00:45:39--> 00:46:11

I'm not getting now into the recent federal giving by Dr. Yusuf qaradawi. I did have some discussion with him after that, just to seek his advice. But I leave that maybe to the later part of discussion, let me move to the third major issue because of time about insurance. Again, the challenge, you can't live without insurance here. In some cases, it's compulsory, even if it's not compulsory, it is a necessity without which you could be subject to huge losses that you could continue to pay for the rest of your life.

00:46:13--> 00:46:18

Okay, we go again to the shadow apart. And two basic points, one.

00:46:19--> 00:46:25

Many scholars would say that the idea of insurance even though in Islam, we don't call it insurance, we call it the careful

00:46:28--> 00:46:37

is not itself contrary to Sharia imprints principle. In fact, they refer to the Hadith of the Prophet SAW Selim, which is again with the finale in Bukhari, Muslim

00:46:39--> 00:46:46

montera, Cumberland Valley, water 30 woman terracotta in an hour, they are an ally, that anyone who leaves behind

00:46:47--> 00:47:25

any wealth or property, it is for his heirs, for his descendants and relatives and so on, for his heirs. And anyone who leaves behind a debt or means by means family and children, what are needed means, then it is my responsibility it is to me and upon my own shoulder upon me, I mean, the prophet SAW Selim, which means the state and Islamic State, or the community, if there is no state would be responsible, that the idea itself of the careful and mutual cooperation and solidarity is Islamic in nature. But then without getting into great details, because each of these topics you can go on forever.

00:47:27--> 00:47:38

We have to make a distinction between insurance on property, and maybe by analogy, maybe health insurance or medication on one hand, and life insurance,

00:47:39--> 00:47:43

on the question of property insurance, according to Dr. qaradawi,

00:47:44--> 00:47:53

that there is a form acceptable in fact known as double roboshot. out which means donation on condition of compensation.

00:47:55--> 00:48:02

And why in the system in its perfect Islamic form, does not exist, at least in North America.

00:48:03--> 00:48:44

It is his opinion that especially cooperative insurance, on property in this country would be the closest to that. And obviously the insurance on liability for the car that's compulsory, you can't even drive the car without having that and if you don't, you could be really in grave trouble. I remember hearing Dr. qaradawi also indicating that preservation of protection safeguarding of the property or wealth is one of the five major objectives of Sharia anyway, and he says suppose a person have a home and he borrowed money even part of the house and or have a system whatever Islamic acceptable system, suppose even Noriega is involved. And then one night, the whole house is

00:48:44--> 00:49:27

burned to ashes, the person will be in debt for the rest of his life. So, there are a number of consideration. I'm not saying that all scholars agree with that, but I think I would be more inclined to Dr. Corrado his position on this on the life insurance. However, there are some scholars who dissented from the majority opinion like Dr. reserves and others and allowed some forms of life insurance. I am more inclined to Dr. Corrado his opinion and I think if a person really wants to have something for his children, it might be better to invest it in some Islamic project rather than being as insurance insurance installment Muslim communities should develop also, some joint project

00:49:27--> 00:49:30

along that line for the benefit of all.

00:49:31--> 00:49:42

Now with the remaining minutes inshallah I promise to touch on six or seven areas very quickly, because that might even save us when we come to the question. I'm sure some of those might be raised. One.

00:49:44--> 00:49:49

data isn't everything, you can't really avoid rabbit in some form or the other.

00:49:50--> 00:49:59

Well, in that case, we refer to the Prophet sallallahu Sallam who predicted that there will come a time when Riba was so spread widespread

00:50:00--> 00:50:05

that the person who does not directly deal with ribbon will have a dust of it.

00:50:06--> 00:50:25

Are we responsible for that dust? And if we were to say, all right, you said earlier that you could buy shares in companies, not bonds, provided, of course, that those shares are not an item that are hella Haram. You can buy, for example chairs in a winery, because the major income basically is from haram stuff.

00:50:27--> 00:50:37

But even if you buy shares in General Motors or Microsoft or whatever, it still, those companies deal with interest to some degree or the other.

00:50:39--> 00:50:49

I would extend that question further and say, right, even if you work for the government, and you get the salary, your salary contained in part interest, because the government also did an interest everybody does.

00:50:50--> 00:51:15

And if we were really to say, unless every small trace of river by electrodialysis, Director must be purged before anything becomes a halen, then life becomes totally impossible, it becomes close even to the Aurora in that case. So the issue then for the Muslim is whether I'm buying deliberately shares in companies that I know a big chunk of their income come from Haram, or whether the interest dealing of that company is only incidental.

00:51:16--> 00:51:22

And by the way, I say with great respect that some scholars even with interpreted more strict and say no, even that's hard on.

00:51:23--> 00:51:29

But that makes it very difficult. It is a considered opinion, but not the only one for that matters.

00:51:30--> 00:51:31

So that's one.

00:51:32--> 00:51:55

Secondly, some people ask about saving accounts, I think what they call it, what 14 K or whatever, some companies will tell you that if you save part of your salary, the employer will match it to help you also build up some. And the problem here basically, is the issue of how this money is being invested. A similar a third issue because I addressed them together the question of pension.

00:51:56--> 00:52:11

Because again, in pension, you get deduction from your salary, it's matched in some form or the other, either 100%, more or less, depending on the whatever union contract or system of the company. And then this money are invested, of course, for your future retirement.

00:52:13--> 00:52:24

With the issue of fringe benefits itself. I know, I don't I know of no evidence that it is haram. In other words, if you're employed as a fringe benefits, say, you save

00:52:25--> 00:52:54

2% of your salary, I'll give you 2% as a fringe benefit, there is nothing that's Haram in that, you know, the fact that he says that if you if you contribute 5% of your salary for your pension plan, and they'll match it with another five. Again, that's not haram To my knowledge, because it's basically fringe benefits an additional benefit. And it is known for anyone in Human Resource Management like myself that this is one way of attracting people to work for you. It's not only the state pay, but the contingency

00:52:55--> 00:52:58

fringe benefit, as some call it, even though it's a misnomer, to some degree

00:52:59--> 00:53:02

that manifests perhaps would be a more accurate term.

00:53:03--> 00:53:04

Now,

00:53:05--> 00:53:18

the first thing we should try, in both saving and pension plans is that if the company or organization offers more than one plan, in other words, some of our plan A and plan B.

00:53:19--> 00:53:43

I've seen that myself, for example, in our university, and one of them, it would be basically financial marketers buying instruments like bonds and dealing mostly with rubber. Others might have the bulk. I'm not saying there's anything that's 100% bulk of their investment in something that would be permissible like buying stocks in the marketplace.

00:53:44--> 00:53:48

So if there is a choice, obviously, you should opt for one that is

00:53:49--> 00:53:52

largely in halal investment.

00:53:53--> 00:54:02

I don't know whether it might be practical. I'm not an expert on that in the future to try to work out something with employers even to have something purely Islamic.

00:54:03--> 00:54:27

Maybe some banks might accept the idea of administering some people's pension funds under some control so that the way it is it is invested is totally Islamic. In fact, there have been some attempts. And I don't know how far it is now in Toronto to have an Islamic RRSP registered savings plan with where you could also qualify for tax deduction for the amount contributed.

00:54:28--> 00:55:00

So this is an issue that you have to cope with. And perhaps you need a learning scholar, not me. I'm a student of the scholars to address the issue. Suppose the pension is inflexible and only invest in a combination of halal and haram should the Muslim lose this huge contribution and his rights have those benefits from the employer? Or should he take it and if you want to purify his money later on, he might calculate the amount of interest that might have accrued and give it to charity without being part of

00:55:00--> 00:55:11

visa This is I'm not standing here as a Mufti. But I think it's an issue that perhaps may have some room. And perhaps we should ask our scholars on that issue. Student Loans.

00:55:12--> 00:55:20

Well, ideally, of course, if a person is able to work and study even though it might take a little longer, that could be a solution for the problem, you don't have to borrow.

00:55:21--> 00:55:51

Secondly, if there is no need to borrow, if the parents are helping, let them consider that part of the house. And even if they their means are limited, consider that card the hazard to the child, if not an outright grant. So we should first of all, minimize the scope where the person would have to have student loan, allow the person if possible to earn some money to pay for his tuition fees and study. when absolutely necessary. There's only one thing that I can speak about with comfort.

00:55:52--> 00:56:35

But you ask more lens colors about the more complex issue. If the student loan and the system it works is that you take the amount of money, there is no interest charged, so long as you're registered as a full time student. And there is no interest charge. If you pay the entire amount within a certain grace period after graduation. I have no evidence to say that anything is haram and that dealing because there is no interest charged while you're studying no interest charged for a grace period. So if you're either Sure, or reasonably sure Allah but isn't that you feel that in all likelihood, inshallah you will be able to pay the amount without incurring any interest, then I

00:56:35--> 00:56:37

don't see any problem with that.

00:56:38--> 00:57:19

There have been one case that the brother, one brother in one of my travels mentioned to me that you could try that as well. He said, even in one case, when the person was not able to pay it all in full. He made some sort of negotiation with the government, or whoever commission is in charge. And he said, Look, I'm very eager to pay. And by the way, many of those student loans are defunct they never collected or never collected in full. And the government knows that. And the bank's administering that No, no, that is it. I am eager, I'm a Muslim. This is my problem with interest. And here as a good show of goodwill, I'm even paying this good amount. But please, if we can

00:57:19--> 00:57:49

negotiate that you give me a little extension on that period, so that I don't pay interest. And I was told that this was accepted. I don't know it may not be generalizable case. But this is something also, we might look into. Some people asked about brokerage fees, even though people might be dealing an interest like somebody working in real estate and only take his brokerage fees for selling homes. Again, brokerage fees is paid for the service, even though it could be a percentage of the value of the commodity. I have no evidence again, to say it's Haram.

00:57:51--> 00:57:55

Two more questions. How about a person working in a bank

00:57:56--> 00:58:07

or insurance company? Is that halaal in itself? Well, obviously, it's not the most ideal situation because the salary comes from money, which is largely interest.

00:58:08--> 00:58:27

Some scholars, however, have the position that in only in the case where there is no other alternative, like somebody having a degree in accounting or finance. And there is no Islamic finance company that could accommodate all people in this area. There's only one thing that there is full agreement that should be avoided

00:58:28--> 00:59:09

to be a loan officer. And the reason is that the Prophet salallahu alaihe salam when he spoke about river, he invoked the curse of Allah subhanaw taala about river, the one who gives it, the one who takes it and then he added the one who writes a contract involving River and the one who witness a contract like that. So that would put a person in a loan officer position in difficulty, other branches in the bank like foreign exchange letter, you know, other issues that may not directly involve those feasibility studies or whatever. Accounting in itself is only putting numbers.

00:59:10--> 00:59:52

It is at least you can say macro, but to say definitively it's Haram. It's an issue that perhaps scholars could differ on that but there may be some room for that. And finally, what happened if I put my money in the bank, and they added interest? I did not seek it. What should they do with that? This is an issue. This is an issue where a number of scholars, including mowlana, Mo do the Shafi, Salma Malawi and Youssef qaradawi. And others said that the basic rule in Sharia of haram money is that it should not be destroyed, cannot destroy it. But it becomes it comes to vital men to be spent for the benefit of the poor and needy. And that sense, the money cannot be used to pay traffic

00:59:52--> 00:59:59

tickets, taxes, or any other thing you cannot benefit from it in any way, shape, or form.

01:00:00--> 01:00:46

You cannot pay it as part of your or sadaqa even, but you paid for the benefit of the poor and needy. This is In brief, the three major issues and the seven other quick ones. I hope I did not bore you too much with this. But I thought that I wanted this topic or this presentation to go beyond generalities. Of course, we need to remind each other of the fear of Allah, we needed to remind each other of the true meaning of survival and success in the sight of Allah long term, not only short term, but of course as Muslims, we have to deal with the realities of our life. And I hope at least we start at some sort of debate on these vital issues which I hope will be again only

01:00:46--> 01:00:55

means to a more novel object a more noble objective, and that is to achieve our endeavor on this earth as individuals and collectives as salaam alaikum.

01:00:59--> 01:01:08

inform us if there is any place on earth where the Islamic economic policies are being practiced? Or is this just all theory?

01:01:09--> 01:01:20

practical attempts are made practical cases of success are reported even in North America, like I said about the housing cooperative, but need to need more needs to be done.

01:01:22--> 01:01:24

I wish I can answer all like that quick.

01:01:25--> 01:01:28

Muslims lease cars from them, is it How long?

01:01:29--> 01:02:08

The contract the lease contract itself is not haram because you're renting certain equipment and you're paying for the utility and then you're giving the choice of buying afterward. But I would not extend that to the lease commonly offered by car dealers, because it's 100% interest based. I know the difference here is basically is rather hazy. But we know that they calculate it as such. So if you have it as an Islamic type of lease without this sugar, it may not be itself bad. I see vendors selling jewelry with an eye on it is this around.

01:02:10--> 01:02:14

I prefer it not a crossbow. I don't like it. But

01:02:15--> 01:02:17

to say Haram is too big for me.

01:02:19--> 01:03:02

We live in America, some of us are planning to stay here some will leave sooner or later. How do we we invest our money? How can you keep our money safe in one bank or to avoid Riba and also we do not have a strong Islamic institutions. There are some emerging institutions already there is the housing cooperative in Toronto. And people can go there also as investors not necessarily as prospective home buyers, there is the MSI that need more strengthening they there is the vital melon Islami in New Jersey, which is very successful in handler making dealing with the real estate and equipment. And there is the Amana fund also, which is supervised by Nate it's a different company

01:03:02--> 01:03:17

but supervised by Nate and they have a board to make sure that the investments are halal. And that there is of course the possibility of buying shares after the screening them as indicated earlier. So this might be all possibilities.

01:03:18--> 01:03:36

If we buy a home islamically it will cost us more an increase than it would cost us to buy one with the current interest rates renting an apartment we are paying more than when we are purchasing a home. Also our taxes which support anti Islamic activities are much greater

01:03:38--> 01:04:24

issue or taxes are used to pay Riba two points. Number one, I would much rather have an home have a home financed islamically. Even if I have had to pay more than the current interest rate suffice that it is Baraka suffice the Talon and pleasing to Allah subhanaw taala. But if I'm looking at it only in purely materialistic thing, then if the offer made by the housing cooperative, is more attractive, I don't go to the bank, if the bank is more attractive, ideal in the river. But that's not the mindset of a Muslim who's seeking the pleasure of Allah subhanaw taala. However, I must say that those in charge of cooperatives like that have the responsibility also to make sure that in

01:04:24--> 01:04:44

setting the rental value or other procedures, that they should also keep in mind fairness, and making it easy for people to acquire property. I haven't heard that complaint by the way. And you came from Toronto. So you know, I haven't heard that complaint, for example, about the Islamic housing cooperative in Toronto. But like I said, even if it's slightly more and Italian,

01:04:45--> 01:04:59

even if I forsaking part of the tax benefit, there's no problem. And by the way for the tax benefit, one thing we tried in Halifax in one of those homes and it was accepted by revenue Canada, that for the sake of accounting, we considered

01:05:00--> 01:05:04

The income as rental income which qualified also for deductions.

01:05:06--> 01:05:43

And it is quite possible and also to consider it even in a tax system that do not allow that as equivalent to interest. It's in the sight of Allah, it's not interest. But if you consider it like interest only for the tax purposes, because otherwise people who are in the same position are benefiting from tax deduction, this is something that you could check, maybe come a combined accountant, lawyer, or committee of accountants and lawyers to find some way, and even getting in touch with the revenue Internal Revenue Service here in this country to find if some arrangement that would be equitable, so that those who are financing Islamic can benefit also tax wise.

01:05:45--> 01:06:10

Some of the people I speak with Americans, they say, it doesn't make sense to them. When we speak about interest. They say these banks has to make some money out of you to keep their employee salary and businesses up. How can you tell them and convince them about the interest is around. For many of those non Muslim it doesn't make any sense not to eat pork, doesn't make any sense to have even appears very, like

01:06:11--> 01:06:53

one or two, doesn't make any sense for them that a Muslim woman observes hijab. So what what what are we seeking? are we seeking to mold Islam so that quote, unquote, it makes sense to others? That's different from Heckman the wisdom of using terms of using concepts or ideas that convey the message of Islam that suits them intelligent people that that's a different issue. But we don't have to make everything that makes sense to people. Secondly, that objection here is very weak in itself. Yes, bank to have to make profit to pay its overheads. But that's how Islamic banks operate and they succeeded. You see, tell them the substitute islamically is to have investment banks, people put

01:06:53--> 01:07:02

their deposits, but in an Islamic bank, unlike the other commercial bank, your capacity, there is jewelled capacity, your investors.

01:07:04--> 01:07:27

And deposits are at the same time your money is used. And out of the profit they make from Hillel dealings, you deduct the overhead. So the question of taking care of expenses is there. And what remains would be like equivalent of net profit that would be distributed as dividend. So no problem with that. So it can make sense to it. But the principle of the issue of making sense to others, but you can make sense of

01:07:29--> 01:08:09

a struggle, you can just quick comment about the 401k plan that a lot of companies have, I have talked to a company called Aetna, it's a pretty big company in the United States, they are coming out with a plan what they call a socially responsible managed funds, what they call kotoko. And what the reason is, a lot of Americans like do not want like their dad may have died because of smoking cigarettes or something. So they don't want to invest in companies that do you know, business, selling cigarettes, or making cigarettes or something like that, or in beers and all these. So they're coming already with a plan like that. They were basically saying that by by middle of this

01:08:09--> 01:08:43

year, they should have it ready. So if you were working in a company, and you have a plan through it, now, you can probably talk to them somebody. And hamdulillah I'm very glad to hear that. And that confirm that point. I said earlier that you could deal sometimes with the short term problems, but long term, we should not assume that the reality can never be changed, you cannot put it upside down. But the reality here, if people find that it's profitable, it's useful, they will do it. They as you know, some in some Muslim countries, some of the commercial banks, because they saw the success of Islamic banks started to have departments for Islamic investment because they can make

01:08:43--> 01:08:49

money out of that is it to be Islamic doesn't mean that you lose money or you don't make prudent business decisions.

01:08:51--> 01:09:36

saramonic in my understanding, they're going fishing for a valid Malaysian or deferred payment or installment, whatever you wanna call it in English, is that the seller has to be the owner of the product is not going into a third party for financing and so on. So if we look at the major car manufacturers in the United States, like GM, for example, they are they do the financing themselves in the way that they tell you the core value is cash value is 20,000, let's say. And if you want to buy it in installments, we give it to you for 60 months, and it's $400 a month. If you add it out, you will end up paying let's say $24,000 so actually you paid extra $4,000 on the top of the cash

01:09:36--> 01:09:59

price is in this deferred payment. Now we can argue How did they calculate the extra $4,000 Let's not care about it because they could have calculated it in a way that they say okay, 2.9 financing or 5.9 or whatever they they see, but I don't care. What I care about is someone is offering offering me a car a cash prize 20

01:10:00--> 01:10:04

1000 or installments 60 a month for 400 a month, which will,

01:10:05--> 01:10:40

which which means at the end, I will be paying some extra $1,000. Can we think of this as being measured? The condition here, the way I look at it is the dealer is out of the question out of the picture, once we signed the contract, there is no one making interest on the way it is the manufacturer, which is the owner of the car, and it is the buyer. Can we think of this as deferred payment? I think as mentioned earlier, that the reason why some scholars had reservation on it, and personally, I'm not as comfortable with it. But I for intellectual honesty, I hate to say it

01:10:42--> 01:11:27

is like say machete Hyderabad, like Jakarta said machete has some element of similarity with River. Because even like I say, if you have the tradition, and the traditional situation where this was permissible, really is that you have just one item, you know, a tool or whatever, I sell it, the price is $15. Today, if you pay me after a month is 17. It was just like a straightforward type of thing did not have the complexity that we have today, with the tables, calculating amortization of our so many months and what at what kind of interest rate. So I think what you said shows, or confirms what I'm more inclined to that.

01:11:28--> 01:11:52

The difference is, is very hazy. And I would rather not personally get into this kind of dealing, especially like I say, if I don't, if I don't have to get a $20,000 car, I can save I can go buy with a good used one until I'm able to pay to cash i'd feel more comfortable. But I don't impose what I prefer myself on everyone else. But it has some similarity.

01:11:56--> 01:12:04

As I understood from your time, then leasing is not allowed in Islam. Isn't it like a form of rent? leasing leases? Yeah.

01:12:06--> 01:12:06

It's not enough.

01:12:07--> 01:12:09

Is it permissible in Islam?

01:12:10--> 01:12:14

If I understood your question, you saying is our leases permissible?

01:12:15--> 01:12:41

Less on equipment, leasing equipment or occur? I mentioned earlier that I have no evidence to show it's haram because you're paying for manpower for the utilization of the equipment, you're not obligated to buy it to buy it. So you have that lease, for example, for three years after that you can buy or refuse to buy. So in that case, you're paying for benefits that you derive from the equipment. I have no grounds to say Tana.

01:12:43--> 01:13:11

Last question is Salaam Alaikum. Regarding the life insurance, my understanding even if the scholars who said it's Hillel, it's for Term Life Insurance, because there's another kind, which I think I forgot the technical word, but I think it's called whole life insurance, which you pay more, but you also invest the money and you can get some of the money back. I just want to clarify, does that qualify? I didn't go into details but you're quite right. There are there are varieties of

01:13:12--> 01:13:14

life insurance plans,

01:13:15--> 01:13:18

some of which are basically almost like saving plan,

01:13:19--> 01:13:20

more or less.

01:13:23--> 01:13:25

You know, raising all these questions.

01:13:26--> 01:13:29

I believe that the time is up now.