Hosai Mojaddidi – Why Faith Matters TriValley Ramadan Interfaith Iftar
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AI: Transcript ©
Bismillah R Rahman Rahim in the name of God with an emphasis at
the Merciful. I would like to welcome all of you with the
universal greeting of peace. A salaam Wa alaykum Peace be upon
all of you, shalom, and at home, I hope I said that.
I'm so honored to meet all of you. And I hope we there's time during
the event and after for us to really get to know each other. But
again, on behalf of MCC, I welcome you as well. This discussion
actually came about with a conversation when you and I had
about, you know, this particular event and what topic would
interest hopefully all of you and us. And I kind of just shared some
of my experiences, speaking with different groups within the Muslim
community, from women, from youth and couples, family, married
couples, and the feedback that I've gotten about just what they
expect from their community center. And I've found in just the
past maybe 10 or so years, post 911, I'd say actually post 911.
But there's been this interesting, you know, trend of, even though we
have an increase actually in mosque attendance and even mosque
building, I think the most recent research that I read was that we
have over 2100 maybe close to 2200 mosques throughout the country,
that there was also this other phenomenon happening within our
own community within the Muslim community. Have some people
feeling what this term that has kind of gotten a little popular
recently unmasked. Okay, I don't know, have you? Has anybody heard
this term before? Um,
yeah, this is a something that has kind of come about, again, within
the recent years. And the feedback that I got from people who felt
unmask, which what does that mean, is that they felt that some of the
issues that they wanted to talk about how they felt needed to be
addressed, weren't being addressed in the mosque, and that they felt
that there wasn't a space for them in the mosque. So what was
happening, because they had a need, and they still wanted to
identify with their faith, and they wanted to communicate their
faith, they there were these other spaces that were being created
called third spaces. And this was sort of the intersection where
people could come without really feeling maybe judged for having
differing views or, you know, maybe expressing their faith a
little differently than they knew what would be considered normal.
So they felt that, you know, these, we were seeing this pop up
of what we call third spaces. So the conversation, again, that I've
heard from people is because they felt that some of the issues,
again, that they wanted the mosque to address weren't being
addressed. So what happened in the communities that I've been a part
of that I lived in Southern California for a few years, and
then recently came back to the Bay Area, is that the conversation got
started, right? And this was
people really wanting to now hear from the youth from the millennial
generation, especially from women more like what what needs are you?
Do you have that, that you don't feel maybe there's something going
on in your community that that doesn't mean that what are these
things? And I was part of like a really great debate, actually,
between an imam of the mosque, and myself, and we had this debate in
Southern California about, you know, is our third spaces
necessary? You know, are they actually causing a conflict? Or is
it causing confusion for people, because now they kind of have to
choose between attending a mosque, or attending a third space, it was
just a really great debate. But out of that came a lot of
understanding because finally, this generational divide, right,
of maybe a more traditional older, you know, attitude about certain
conservative attitude, that a lot of the mosque, I would say, you
know, management or the board, the people who are leadership of the
mosque that they held, and then the youth who were identified as
American who were very proud still to be Muslim, but they also wanted
certain things to be addressed. For example, gender relations,
right. As some of you may know, In Islam there, there are very clear
rules about how men and women interact with each other. And some
of those rules don't always I should say, you know, they don't
always align with the society at large, right. Beside it, Loesch
says, you know, especially when it comes to friendships or other
relationships, that there should be a more sort of fluid, you know,
you know, approach, whereas in Assam, it's pretty defined as how
certain things you know, are done. And so the youth are confused,
right? They're worn in this society, they, they appreciate a
lot of the great things of American society. But then this
other message is confusing them. So these types of discussions were
things that they weren't really getting that weren't they felt
weren't getting addressed. So what it did is by just having the
conversation, it actually got the leadership to listen and say, we
need to now start paying attention to the needs of our youth because
what's happening is or what could happen is that we might see them
just leave, right and that's a
The sort of trends that that manera and I was in our
discussion, we're talking about, is this happening just within our
community? Or is it actually something that we're seeing in
churches and synagogues and maybe other faith groups where people
are finding that, because there's maybe some incompatibility with
certain things or, you know, maybe services, as I mentioned, aren't
quite what they expect, that they feel that they don't have a place
in their particular center or, you know, faith,
House of Worship in their community. So we thought, why not
bring this discussion, you know, to this particular event, and hear
from our fellow panelists and see, do we have similar problems? No,
is that a generational divide? Are there things that we can learn
from one another about how to maintain or sustain our
membership, and avoid problems where people just feel like they
don't have a need for faith anymore. And I think when we hear
from in your, in some of the research that I'm excited to hear
about, will will will have a really fruitful discussion. So I'm
going to now pass it along to my fellow panelists, or too many, or
if you would like to Sure. Thank you so much.
All right. Wonderful. Thank you. This is gonna say. So next we're
going to hear from Rabbi Dr. of Lawrence, real
Rabbi builders, the rabbi at congregation EMIC here in
Pleasanton. He received his BA and his PhD at Brandeis University,
where he is the recipients recipient of a fellowship in the
center of modern Jewish Studies. That's a research institute
devoted to social scientific study of American Jewry. Rabbi non
military was organized at Hebrew Union College, Jewish Institute of
Religion in New York, and a summary of Reformed Judaism. And
he also has pursued dual careers and robotics and academia. And he
was an assistant professor at the University of Maine and a lecture
being on Theological Seminary, my goodness and thought, the American
Hebrew academic Academy in Greensboro, North Carolina, he's
also reserved at the Union for Reform Judaism as as his director
of social action with the new New England region, I can keep going.
My hands
Okay,
good evening and Ramadan mubarak.
Thank you for the Muslim community center for your invitation to
speak and to respond to Jose, I consider this a great honor. It's
my first time speaking here. And I do think in the 35 years, I've
been a rabbi, it's the first time I've been invited to speak in a
Muslim
setting. So this is wonderful for me.
And I wish you blessings during the holy month of Ramadan. I hope
that our congregations congregation, Beth Emek, and the
Muslim community center along with St. Bartholomew's Episcopal Church
will continue to grow in understanding and in friendship.
And this evenings topic really intrigues me when Jose wrote to us
and said, you know, here's what I'm thinking about. She had a
particular phrase that jumped out at me that I wasn't aware of,
because she says that we have this uptick of worship attendance
during Ramadan. And then it trails off us the term or maybe it was
you, Ramadan, Muslims, and also you spoke, in addition to the
regrading of mosques after Ramadan, well, this was new to me.
among Jews, we do have a similar, we have similar language we refer
to high holy day jews. That is those Jews who come to synagogue
on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur for the Jewish New Year in the Day
of Atonement, and whom we are unlikely to see the rest of the
year.
And I of course knew about twice a year Christians.
But honestly, I never thought about Ramadan, Muslims. And the
question as I understood the question, in our communications is
how we all address within our respective religious traditions.
The phenomenon of religious observance that peaks around
holidays and dissipates afterwards is a little different than the
specific assimilation challenge that you discuss, but related. So
let's start with the obvious. Guilt is an ineffective motivator
when it comes to religious behavior. That's easy. No one is
going to show up for the holidays. If the sermon is why are you here
the rest of the year?
Here is where I think I have a unique perspective. I am not a
salesman for Judaism.
I have not taken upon myself the task of convincing others to be
more judicially engaged.
Nor am I an evangelizer for Judaism. But on this point, I
think Muslims and Episcopalians to choose we all think like we are
are not out to convert people just to exemplify the best in our
respective faiths.
If a Muslim fasts and prays and gives us a cut, it demonstrates a
commitment to faith that others may find admirable. And perhaps a
tractor. Choose non proselytizing Christians we all share the same
approach.
But that's not really the issue is it? Because what makes religion
worthwhile, if it is not a set of expectations?
Our faiths are by definition, aspirational. To be a good Jew or
Christian or Muslim means to strive for something. It's that
internal dimension of jihad, or for Christians to live as Jesus
would.
What would our religions be without expectations?
Hollow Halloween. Or as Jews like to say, bagels and lox and the
Sunday New York Times.
Judaism has the concept of mitzvah which means sacred obligation. For
example, it's a mitzvah to light the Sabbath candles are too fast
on Yom Kippur war. It's also a mitzvah to give charity and to
visit the sick. To be a Jew means to live with a sense of
obligation.
Now, as a liberal Jew, we call ourselves reformed to sets our
movement. I might not view those obligations the same way as my
orthodox counterparts do. But I share with thoughtful Jews the
idea that Judaism is lived in dialogue with God.
I am not alone, Jewish duty does not begin and end with me.
Were I to try discussing what those expectations are. With my
competence. Let's just say that our congregants are zealous with
regard to their personal autonomy.
Indeed, personal autonomy may be the real faith of many American
Jews. I can't speak for other religions. But I would suggest
that personal autonomy is one of those most highly American values.
And this is where the rubber hits the road. Because in contrast to
American values, our religions view spirituality as a collective
enterprise. We are in this together. And that means that
ultimately, we do not each individually define our own terms
of what Judaism or Islam or Christianity actually requires of
us.
But religion as a shared enterprise, is countercultural.
It runs against the grain of American individualism,
and against the Western enlightenment tradition as a
whole.
Here's what I mean.
3 billion people watch the World Cup soccer finals.
There are two and a half billion Christians in the world.
Soccer is more important to more people than any religion.
We should keep that in mind when we think about nominally observant
members of our respective faiths. Being religiously identified at
all, in this postmodern world, is going against the stream.
There are at least as many Jews who don't show up for a high holy
days as the ones who do. secularization is a bigger issue
than the phenomenon of high holy day jews. We live in times when
spiritual practice on any level is a countercultural act, bucking the
trend.
Now, in some ways, this is an even bigger problem for Jews that for
Christians or Muslims, and that's just a reflection of the
disproportionate participation of Jews in areas of society that have
a highly secularizing influence university education, occupations
that involve high rates of mobility, being uprooted from
historically native Jewish lands. Many American Muslims can relate
to the consequences of being uprooted. But none of these
factors are particular to Jews, we are all being bombarded with
messages that present non observance of religion or no
religion at all, as the expected societal norm. So on this point,
we probably all agree, Ramadan, Muslims and high holy day jews and
Christmas Christians, we're glad they are here at all.
I am not going to be able to change their behavior.
I cannot sell Judaism in the marketplace of identities.
I see us at least Jews as engaged in the creation of places that are
truly holy communities that aspire to be attuned to the sacred
dimension of life. Communities That Care about one another,
communities who feel called to repair a broken world. Oh,
my gosh, that is an extraordinary level of commitment, who joins
such a community who gives their time and their resources to
realize that share division?
No amount of outreach programming, or affinity groups? or dare I
admitted, inspiring sermons are going to get our CO religionists
to be the path to our door.
What matters is the richness of our own practice of our faith.
Are we generous? Are we ethical? Are we serious about our spiritual
growth?
So Jews who are longing for an antidote to the anime, the
aloneness and spiritual vacuity of society will find sanctuary and
meaning in the synagogue.
But that will only be true if we are real and authentic in our
respective fates.
If we try to sell ourselves, try to market our religion, we are no
different than the ads we see on TV and probably a whole lot worse
at it than they are.
So at the end, counterculture is where it's at.
I was a countercultural Jew in the 1970s when that meant reimagining
what Jewish life could be. I am a countercultural Jew now when it
means that Judaism reimagine society in which we live
when it comes to the task we all face I would guess that deeply
committed Christians and Muslims feel the same way
right. Wonderful. Thank you
You're at the mosque
here at the mosque I say it's not haram to clap around is like
something forbidden.
I always remind our congregation
All right, and our next panelist will be Rector Auntie Logan,
Rector at Logan was Virgen Palo Alto. He received undergraduate
degrees in physics and math at MIT and a master's in a science and
math education from UC Berkeley. For several years, he taught
public high schools and colleges in Chicago and San Antonio in San
Antonio. He felt God's calling to him became an ordained minister.
He also attended. Then he attended seminary at the Southwest in
Austin. He then served as a year as a transitional Deacon and new
priest in San Antonio. That was followed by four years serving at
Grace Cathedral in San skulk beautiful place, and serving in
many facets of that ministry, especially outreach, social
justice and interfaith work. We're so honored that you're here, and
Russia and he is now the priest in charge at St. Barts, almost true
to church in Livermore. He lives in Oakland with his wife, Olga,
and their two lovely daughters, light likey Daughters of the
weekend.
Thank you so much.
Thank you and Salam aleikum.
I hate being third in a panel like this because all the good points
are taken.
But I think there is a little bit of uniqueness, perhaps to the
Christian perspective on all this. The simple answer to the question
that you sister has certainly raised is yes, it is very much an
issue in churches just as much as in synagogues and mosques that we
see a graying of the congregation and that we see some some I
wouldn't even say cyclic but spike patterns in attendance at certain
points of the year, and then the rest of the year tends to be an
ever decreasing trough. It took me a while to learn some of the
jargon around this in seminary. I had to hear this three or four
times before I knew what it meant when somebody would ask so how
many CEOs do you have in your church?
Chief Executive, I'm
talking about JP Morgan Chase here. Christmas and Easter. Oh, my
God, but it gets even better. There's another acronym HMDs,
hatch, match and dispatch. So the ones you see only for baptisms,
weddings, funerals,
So
we've had plenty of those as well. And again, it doesn't surprise me,
I am guessing actually that the the HMDs might be a relatively
unique feature to Christianity, because we're at such a funny
point. societally. We're living with this rhetoric that's becoming
ever increasingly hollow, that somehow this is a Christian
nation, and that those values and those teachings pervade our public
life. And I think all of us, especially here in California,
know that that is the language of a bygone colonial empire who that
has run its course, and just no longer represents who we are as a
people. And so we're in a new era where we need to reimagine Who are
we as a people, what holds us together? And how can we deal with
the tensions and the differences among us in ways that build life
and peace among our varying communities. But in the meanwhile,
we still had this tiny little vestige. And so we have a large
section of the population that says, you know, I can somehow
squint hard enough, and convince myself that it's the way it used
to be, and that my family is what it used to be, if we just identify
with a church maybe three, four times in a lifetime. And that's
where we go to get married. That's where we take our babies when
they're born to be baptized, and then that's where we bury our
dead. Now, I don't have any sort of rancor toward this. And I
certainly don't discourage people who come for that. But I also see
that there's a little bit of a problem. And there's even a
problem with the CEO. And my more fundamentalist brothers and
sisters might say, Well, the problem is that the faith is just
not strong enough. And there may be some eternal consequences for
that. I completely disagree with that. And I think that's a gross
misreading of the Scripture in the tradition. Here's, however, what I
think the problem is, when Martin Luther King was able to stand on
Washington Mall and say he had been to the mountaintop, and he
had seen the promised land, he could be relatively certain that
the overwhelming majority of his audience had a context within
which to put those words, and he didn't need to connect all the
dots for them. And that is more important than it might sound.
See, as a priest in the church, I am encouraged to the point of
almost required to maintain some disciplines, it probably would
have been fairly commonplace. For a lay person to in ages past, at
least twice a day, I pray what's called The Daily Office. And part
of that is a cycle of reading the Old and the New Testaments of Holy
Scripture that bring me through the entirety of it every two
years, at least every month or two, I go and see a fellow priest
who is referred to as a spiritual director for pastoral counseling
direction confession, if I feel that that's necessary. Again,
these were fairly commonplace disciplines for most people, who
would have called themselves Christian in ages past. Now
they're foreign to most. So what that means is that when we get
those rare occasions when we get the Christmas when we get the
Easter, we're reading scripture, and we're preaching a message
where people have very limited context within which to flooded.
And you'd be amazed at what funky things people can do with sound
bites, when they don't have the content. We've never seen stuff
like that.
But all of this rhetoric that somehow cherry picks just a few
proof texts from the Christian tradition and uses them to justify
Islamophobia uses them to justify anti semitism, anti immigrant
rhetoric, you know, praise the Lord and pass the ammunition type
of stuff. All of this becomes impossible. When you understand
the broader context, you can get it, if you're willing to say, the
only text I know is the one that bolsters my case. And it can be
found I will give you that, but I'm going to ignore the rest of
the story. But if you actually become a regular practitioner, and
I do indeed see it as a practice, and that practice involves regular
reading, regular prayer, regular study, regular conversation and
community, hopefully a community diverse enough that somebody will
challenge your point of view, you no longer can stay in that place.
It's not just something we need to do as an interfaith group. It's
actually something we need to do within the confines of our own
communities. And in that respect, I would have to agree with Rabbi
Miller that even though it doesn't appear so on the surface surface,
being truly Christian is as countercultural in this day and
age, as being truly Muslim or truly Jewish would be. But as a
cow
Agricultural thing that I think is absolutely essential. So to just
kind of round up the way Rabbi Miller did a little bit, the
question is what to do about it. I am not an evangelist in the sense
that I'm trying to get more people to come to church, I'm certainly
not going to sell them. Well, you got to come to save your soul. I
don't believe that myself. But what I am going to say, is, I
believe in a God whose goal it is in the words of the prophet
Jeremiah, to remove the Hearts of Stone from our body, and to
replace them with hearts of flesh. And I know that's the text that we
all share. And I would suggest that when it's at its finest, the
church is a community, a body of people, a living, breathing entity
that gives power and gives a vessel and give us a means by
which God can accomplish that noble goal. So anytime somebody is
willing to hear, that is what I'm going to sell because that's all I
believe that we have to offer. And that's something I think that
appeals as much to young as it does to old, as much to the
completely secularized as to the devotedly religious.
That's what we have to offer.
So much, Greg Powell, great insights there. So what I'm
hearing is, of course, the American religious landscape is
undergoing dramatic transformation. And so I wanted to
kind of put some research in here before we kind of get into our
discussion. There's this group called the Public Religion
Research Institute, PRRI. And they're a nonprofit, nonpartisan
organization dedicated to conducting independent research,
and in trying to figure out what the intersection of religion,
culture and public policy is. So in that little particular Venn
diagram, they came up with some nuggets that I just want to read
real quick here. That is from a 2016 American values app. Listen,
this was the single largest survey of American religious denomination
and identity ever conducted. So from this, we found that white
Christian is now account for fewer than half of the public. Today,
only 43% of Americans identify as white Christian and only 30% as
white and Protestant. Sure, the majority before in 1976 58, and
10. That's 81% of Americans identify as white identified with
a Christian *, and a majority of 50% 55% were white
Protestants. Also, the non religious, non Christian religious
groups are growing but they still represent less than one in 10
Americans combined. Jewish Americans constitute about 2% of
the public of Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus constitute only about
one percentage of the public. All other non Christian religions
constitute an additional 1%. And amongst American youngest
religious groups are all non Christian, youngest religious
groups are all non Christian. Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists are
all far younger than white Christian groups, at least 1/3 of
Muslims 42% of Hindus 36% of Buddhists, 35% are under the age
of 30. So that's worth the 1/3 34% of that are religiously
unaffiliated Americans. Also about 1/3 34% are religiously
unaffiliated Americans under 30 years old. 34% So if you contrast
that with white Christians, groups there aging, slightly more than
one and 10 White Catholics, 11%.
And atheists and agnostics account for a minority of all religious,
unaffiliated, most are secular atheists and agnostics accounted
for about 1/3 that's 27% of all religious unaffiliated Americans,
and nearly six in 10. That's 58% religiously unaffiliated.
Americans identify as secular someone who does not belong to a
religious group 60% of religiously unaffiliated Americans have less
report that identified as a religious person. Just have a
couple more here, Jews, Hindus and Unitarian Universalist
Universalist they stand out as the most educated groups in America
with Islam in more than 1/3 of Jews 34% Hindus 38%, a unitary
universe for 3% for postgraduate degrees. Notably, Muslims are
significantly more likely than white evangelical Protestants to
have at least a four year degree 33% versus 25%. Finally, the
religious affiliate, this is a broad demographic, a third of
adults 130 have no religious affiliation, that's 30% of our
population. And that's compared with just one in 10, who are 65
and older. So just about 9% of people over 65 are religiously
affiliated. Today, young adults are much more likely to be
unaffiliated than previous generations,
who are at a similar stage in life. The growth in the number of
religiously unaffiliated Americans, sometimes called the
rise of the nuns
is largely driven
By generational replacement, the gradual supplanting older
generations by your generations. So amongst all this panel, here's
my question, How Can each of you
faith groups represented here today, their representative fate,
moreover, to the younger generation, or the largest subset
responsible for the decline, wants to go first?
solve our problems.
Thank you. Thank you so much.
You know, echoing what I mentioned earlier, I think conversation
dialogue is the starting point, we have got to listen to each other.
And we've got to give roles of leadership to our youth. And I
think the mosques that I've been a part of that I think are the most
successful, have a lot of youth activity, they have youth, you
know, leadership, but leadership programs, where are you, they're
actually trained on how to, you know, just sort of come into their
own identity, but also take the reins a little bit from the older
generation. And even here at the MCC, I'm very grateful to be a
part of this community just within the past couple of months, but
they have so many efforts to really try to bring as many youth
in as possible. And I think, as long as we can open that those
channels that we have, we're listening to them, we're actually,
you know, giving them a space so that they don't feel that there
isn't anything here for them or that it's antiquated the messages
that they're getting. And it's, as was mentioned before, like, you
know, just something that doesn't necessarily appeal to them. But
they actually do find that the community does offer something
that they that they're interested in, and that they can be a part
of. So I think that's, that's, in my opinion, the best thing that
our community can do. And I'm really happy to say that we have
this wonderful community center that's really doing that already.
But I My hope is that this can be something that we just see
continue to grow, that more and more youth programs programming
for youth are created, and that more and more leaders are
developed within the youth.
Well, that's a tough question. But as you were asking you what came
to mind was actually a conversation I had with one of our
youth members a couple years ago, when I first started at St.
Bartholomew's. And it wasn't so much a question is just a brain
dump. But what she told me left my head spinning. I mean, she
basically describe a typical week for her and Livermore high school.
And she just said, you know, you'll look around, and you'll see
all the students who are experimenting with gender
fluidity. And then you'll see the guys who are going by in a hot rod
yelling out words, I will not repeat in the polite setting and
telling them that they're going to *. And then you will see, you
know, a group of students who are sort of the ropers, you know, the
Cowboys, and then a cadre of students who very recently
emigrated from South Asian nations looking at them, kind of like one
might regard somebody who'd come from another planet. And, and, you
know, she went on and on. And at the end, she basically just sort
of sat back and said,
What am I supposed to do with all of this. And it just, it's taken
me a while to formulate or to even encapsulate what I think she was
saying, which is basically our youth are living at an all you can
eat identity buffet.
It is absolutely overwhelming. And it's getting more and more
granular, and the pressures are higher and higher, like be this
way, they'll be that way. And you know, and there's a sense of you,
you better choose one or else you're not going to have any
friends, I mean, even better figure out which tiny island in
this huge sea you're going to inhabit. So at least there's a few
people on it with you. And I can understand how that could be
incredibly anxiety provoking and how we're seeing a lot of
depression, a lot of anxiety, a lot of violence in youth culture.
And it seems to me, like what, and I don't know how to do it yet. So
this is my prayer right now. But what the religious groups can do
is rather than offering our island, you know, offering an
identity on that all you can eat buffet, because what makes us any
more appealing than any of the others, rather, offering a way to
transcend that altogether. And a place where you don't have to play
that game. You can simply be yourself, be before God and know
that you are loved and you can love others. And to do that in a
place of not being judged and not being forced to pick from this
overwhelming smorgasbord.
But I think it goes without saying that we could program for youth.
I'm a product of the youth group line movement, and that's where I
got really excited about about my own Jewish identity. There's
always more you can do to programs for you.
I think that we jump to some conclusion of
prematurely if we think that the solution for attracting youth to
be more engaged, is to focus on them, because of what they see is
that the adults are not coming and participating, then they may be
very engaged with their youth group activities and their peer
led activities and get very excited about those things. But
that doesn't translate into a sense of belonging to an adult
community, or further down the road. So the evidence is right
before that, and the solution is not them, the solution is awesome.
The solution is the religious community that we create, which is
includes them, they are part of that religious community, but we
can't pretend that we can separate them, and program for them and get
them to be more committed than we are.
That, so, one of the youth came into my office recently, and
they're there. You know, I always talk about gray heads versus black
heads at the mosque here.
So, you know, in our after Ramadan, we the gray head start
going back, I guess, like myself, she said, You know, I'm cutting
salt and pepper going to have a George Clooney look
at February. So what I'm curious about is, what would you estimate
is the average age of your attendees in your corporation? And
I think I'll kind of say just about this congregation, it really
depends on the service, the immigration. So with our youth
services, obviously, we're getting there, but they're, they're around
1617. And we have to supply work right them with with pizza.
Works, yes. But with the other with other words, you know, our
average age, I'd say is 140 40 to 45, is what we're getting that are
in our Friday Sermons. That's what we're seeing. So here's what that
means in other
nations. Well, we're a relatively small congregation. So we have a
fair number of families with children. And if they show up that
drops the average age tremendously. So I really can't
give a number. We certainly are, are for the most part of aging
denomination.
Our church has been seeing a little bit more youth recently.
What I can say, however, is the age group is conspicuously absent.
And that is 90 No about 35. We have almost no way in that
bracket. So there is
more to be said about that. But
that's exactly right. But of course, our congregations are
Pleasanton, Livermore face, they're not in Oakland. And the
age profile would be different. Were we in a more urban part of
the Bay Area, I'm looking at the lay leaders in my congregation
differ for guesstimates on the average age, but let's let's lop
off the special services that religious school class services
that you know, Family Service night when Yeah,
drops or a Bar Mitzvah or apartments are gonna bring in a
lot of families and relatives and again, gonna drop the age. But
outside of that, you know, I've actually never done that kind of
analysis of the age profile of people who attend. And if I had to
hit an average, maybe I would say, 50. Do you think that that's fair?
Fair, from we're talking to average to
be upwards of that. So
that's really
younger than me, but it's still I mean, this is not a young profile.
I'm sorry, I just wanted to add one more thing, because you
mentioned our suburban setting. So I served a Grace Cathedral in San
Francisco. And the answer there is quite different. But it is really
phenomenal as you look at a typical week there. So on Sunday,
there are three main services. The 830 service is liturgically.
Probably, well, it's tied with the 11 o'clock for the most
conservative, but it's much quicker and much quieter and the
median age, there's probably above 60. And then the 11 o'clock
service, median age is probably about 50. And that's the really
traditional one that sort of mirrors. A large mass from one of
the Church of England cathedrals were more British and the British
over there.
Six o'clock evening service where there's no Oregon is you know,
it's piano and bills and harp and things like that it meets on the
labyrinth, not in the pews. And the liturgy is much more flexible.
There. I'd say the median age is more like high 30s to low 40s. But
then Tuesday night, there's a little program that started off
with 30 people who asked if they could, I don't know if written to
space or use a space for free. I put their yoga mats down on a
Tuesday night. And they did this for a little while and then 30
quickly turned to 16 which turned quickly turned to 100 a pretty
To the not just the cathedral clergy, but the Bishop of the
Diocese, caught attention to this and said, You know what, we need
to do something with this. And so it said, keep doing it, but
there's going to be a sermon, that's part of it you need.
So now 800 people, all of whom are pretty much between 20 and 45,
gather every Tuesday, knowing full well that they are going to hear a
sermon with pretty distinctly Christian content. And a yoga
instructor who actually did as much training in the Catholic
Church as he did at an ashram
that says something.
So that you shared that, but because I think it does sort of,
you know, expand on the power that we have right to change
programming to appeal to people who might have different
interests, I've seen that too. And some must offer martial arts
classes are just classes that are not necessarily religious, but
just provide that sense of community, which is, I think, the
greatest thing that typically our different groups have always
offered people, right. But there's a sense of belonging, and they can
come with their family, with their friends, and just commune with
other like minded people. And so looking at programming,
diversifying programming, I think is a great way to, again, empower
us to say, yes, we can, we can maybe change this trend that we're
seeing. So I'm glad you shared that.
All right, good. So I think we want to, but membership, goes with
money. I mean, we talked about, you know, the churches, how they
got this, this mosque, the funds to do this. And so at this mosque,
at least we use membership, so how much membership you get, and
that's how we sustain ourselves. So what services are lacking as a
must that you are any religious group that you think might promote
membership and help sustain existing memberships? If you have
that model?
That are lacking.
You know, to be honest, I can't speak from from from this
particular sector, I'm relatively new. But again, just from things
that I've heard from other community members, I think,
more social services, you know, would be ideal. One of the things
that I do think is very commendable about church groups is
that, if you did, I remember recently doing a search for
different support groups for PTA for someone who was needed the
support group, and I went through this menu, I think it was just a
general menu to find support groups in the area. And almost
every single support group I found was actually done at a church. And
I thought that was amazing. Like, that's something that our POS
could definitely do just to provide a space, for example, for
people who have a drug dependency issues and want to, you know, meet
with other people, or who have lost someone who are coping with,
you know, a recent death, maybe they need support, or divorce
support groups, but just things that the community again, people
in the community might really benefit from it to be able to do
those types of meetings at the mosque, I think would be really
great. So that's definitely something that I guess I'll tell
you right now, if there's a suggestion box I can write into
about.
Thank you.
So glad you brought up that question. In the Episcopal Church,
at least we do not have a membership system, as you
described. As a matter of fact, we, we would be severely
disciplined by our ecclesiastical authorities, were we to try
something like that. So all giving is entirely free. Well, now that
being said, regular attenders are highly encouraged to do what's
called tithing, just kind of get as close as possible to 10% of
gross income vote, recognizing that you know that that's a big
stretch for some people and not something to stretch for others.
But that being said, as with so many churches of our size last
year, St. Bartholomew's found itself in a completely
unsustainable financial position. We started the year with a deficit
that was nearly a third of our annual budget. And we had less
money than that in our savings account. So we, we were literally
in a position of do something different or close your doors.
What that ended up resulting in after looking around for other
options for most of the year, was a new partnership with a different
church and Livermore St. Matthews Missionary Baptist Church. It just
so happened and I actually don't believe I just so happen, I think,
you know, God was involved in this in some ways, had to find a new
home and we had a space that was just right for them. So they moved
over to our space. This really solves a financial problem for
both congregations, but it also just opened our eyes to a way of
being that we never would have considered otherwise because St.
Matthews is overwhelmed.
In the African American, St. Bartholomew's is overwhelmingly
Anglo American. The Baptist Church is pretty radically Protestant.
The Episcopal Church is the most Catholic of the Protestant
denominations. And all of a sudden on the same campus,
largely voluntarily, but sometimes by force, we have these two groups
where black and white are being forced to talk to each other, and
learn about each other and get along with each other, and share
space and share resources, Protestant and Catholic dialogue.
And the whole neighborhood is looking at saying what if this
never happens, like these are groups of people are supposed to
not even be able to stand each other. And here they are standing
arm and arm and smiling and you know,
moving back and forth between their two sanctuaries on Sunday
morning, this is just amazing. So it's not just even the eternal
change, but the external change. And I'm realizing that in a way,
the cart may have driven the horse in that a financial need, forced
us to do this. But now I'm realizing that it's this sort of
cross cultural and ecumenical cooperation, that could actually
be what ends up being the financial salvation, of not just
ours, but a lot of religious groups. And that financial
salvation is actually a byproduct. The real deal is we're finally
breaking down some barriers that have divided us for way too long.
Fascinated that the muscle Community Center operates on a
dues system. This is This is news to me, and I'm really interested
in learning more about comparative financial models of religious
institutions. It's a fascinating subject for those of us who do it
day in and day out.
There is no good solution for us, we,
you ask the question, What could we do that would help attract
more? Well,
there's no one single program, it's going to do that. What we do
say about our identity is we call congregation, Beth EMIC, the
Center for Jewish learning prayer and community in the tri Valley.
And actually, I think that we do a very good job of education, both
for adults and children. We, I think our services are, are
enriching. When it comes to community. Well, we were involved
in the community, we do a number of social service projects, and
we're very active with the interfaith with interfaith
interconnect. And, and, and that bought, where we don't attract
people are all those Jews out there and say, My God, so with
social justice,
I'm not so sure about God, I really, you know,
I'm not coming to your adult ed classes, I want to I want to
change the world. And that's what I think Judaism is. And for those
people, we're not presenting the options of we're an activist
congregation that that stands for
particular values in the broader world that we want to see enacted
in and engage people. Those people aren't aren't really getting what
they need out of the congregation. There's a programmatic area that
we can develop more.
So I just have
all right, I just have one final question, because this is the Year
of Faith event and star. And then we'll open up for q&a in the
audience. We're about to minus 20 minutes, folks like
Mr. Jose on the spot and give us a little primer on Ramadan after we
do an ad here before we had to make that call. But I do want to
ask as as representative of the three Abrahamic faiths, how can we
work? The three groups work together to promote a God centered
life in a world where people are suffering from unprecedented
amounts of mental health crises, drug, alcohol dependencies,
*, addiction, and just a multitude of problems? How can we
add people of faith work on that?
solve our homes?
God
that was probably the hardest question you've asked on the
evening.
I think I keep my answer short, which is to be unafraid to keep
God in it. When we meet as an interfaith I mean, one thing I
recently shared with my congregation is that I often find
ecumenical engagement to be more tricky, and more sort of
emotionally challenging than interfaith. And the reason is
because with ecumenically
engagement. We're starting from the assumption that we're using
the same source material, the same set of Scriptures, the same
traditions, the same history. Whereas with interfaith
engagement, we're much more broad minded and saying, no, actually,
we're coming from different source material. And so we're much more
comfortable with the tensions and differences among us. And I think
sometimes we go so far as to say, we forget the faith part of
interfaith, and that actually, at some kernel level, we still have
the same source material. And I think if the world can see that we
we harken to that, and that we're willing to hold in loving tension,
all the differences that sprang out of that, that's a really
powerful witness.
Amen to that I am. I'm convinced that when we do these events, when
people see the religious communities who talk to one
another in out of deep respect, and deep acceptance, and
appreciation and recognize that takes nothing away from our
respective faith, then other people go, Oh, religion is cool.
They know how to get along the rest of the world, they don't know
how to get along with one another. Those people have faith, they
really understand how to respect one another and respect
differences.
Thank you, thank you so much. I really appreciate what both of you
said in your earlier comments about just really living our faith
and being true to our faith and being the best that we can in
terms of practicing our faith. And I think, if we can do that, you
know, and as to again, share what you said about just really keeping
God in the conversation, being proud of our identity, I think
this is the best thing that we can all individually do. Thank you.
Round of applause to our panel.
Questions will use you
raise your hand
Hi, my name is to you, thank you so much for coming to speak today.
So I hate to use this way by part of the millennial generation. And
I do see a great shift of people who are not religious in my
particular culture and like, I think that is due to follow, what
I've observed is that people often rnh are more into themselves and
not wanting to look out for their like, like, you know, their peers,
because they want to get ahead. Like what would you do in your
particular
religions to, like, grow that in this community?
Let me make sure I understood your question. So you're talking about
sort of speaking to a generation that has become considerably more
individualistic, in its view of itself? And sort of broaden that?
Yeah, like, people are more like, you know, like, our age groups
want to, you know, just like,
do things that, you know, get them ahead in life. And, you know, they
don't really look for, you know, look for the taking care of
others, or like, you know, their neighbors like saying hi to your
neighbor is
like not seen any more like, how would you inspire that in our like
generation.
Personally, I might go a route that might surprise a lot of
people, which is I've starred in doing something that, apparently
is actually national practice in the country of Bhutan. And that's
something along the lines of the happiness assessment.
And the reason I would do that is because I am convinced that in
this generation that's absolutely obsessed with sort of getting
ahead at the expense of everyone and everything else. The level of
happiness is lower than it's ever been in the western world at
least.
And I think there's kind of obviously if you confront people
head on with that you're gonna get a defensive reaction. But I think
there's some backdoor ways to begin that conversation. I think
once it's begun,
the logical mind can see that actually, we're much more
mutually interdependent than we think we are. And that our
happiness, which I would hope is actually the true goal of just
about every human being, is entirely dependent on looking out
for the good of a larger group than just one.
So in a way, I would almost not use a particularly religious
argument but more of of a rational one, to sort of start to address
that. And I think a rational one that is entirely in line with our
religious teachings.
Good,
all right.
Well, thank you guys for coming out and talking to us. One thing
that I found just growing and moving into the city from like
suburbs, and just growing in my career, that more and more were
around people who don't respect the idea of believing in God in
general. So whether you're Christian, Jewish, or Muslim, and
there's a lot of comfort that can be found for finding other
Christians are Jewish people around you that you guys believe
in God in the workplace, and you can kind of discuss it or talk
about it. What are we doing in respective communities to kind of
inspire others to kind of band together outside of our religious
warns of coming to our mosques or churches or something?
Think we kind of addressed that right in that very last question
where we talked about, you know, how can we work together to
promote a more God centered life? So I think that's, you know,
something that we should do is just to be more outspoken about
our faith. Yes, it's countercultural to be religious,
yes, is perceived to be something, you know, again, not in line with
modernity or science, to have faith in God. But I think, the
more we're proud of our faith, and we don't necessarily push it on
anybody, but we just read it, you know, we were willing to share it
instead of hide it. I think that promotes and fosters more and more
conversation and dialogue and understanding. So for example,
right now, it's in a moment, and I think I did
a session with new Muslims. And someone mentioned that he loved
Ramadan, because it was a great time to actually share his faith,
people would find out that he was fasting. And then you know, they
would ask all these questions. And it's, you know, but he, he
welcomed those questions. So I think we, as people of faith
should be obviously open to dialogue, but also look for
opportunities, maybe around holidays. And, you know, when we
do see these, these trends, and people are talking about a
Christmas, obviously, is a great time to talk about, you know, what
church? Are you going to what service are you going to attend,
you know, just to be a little bit more proud and outspoken or
Passover, you know, same thing, just to kind of, again, share,
maybe something that you learned, if you did attend the service,
instead of feeling that you're by doing so that you're you're trying
to, to convert someone, I think that message is, is not true. It's
because, you know, that's based on intention. And if your intention
isn't to do that, but rather to just share a part of you, that I
think people should be more receptive to that. But
unfortunately, we've gotten, I think, into this mindset that just
by even sharing our faith identities, that it's going to be
perceived as though we're trying to force it onto someone, but
who's who's giving them a message? You know, I don't think that's
coming from us. I think that's, you know, we're being targeted.
That's a way to shut us up. And so we kind of have to be pushed back
on that notion
I have a questions a concerning the common situations.
There's a product in Miss profits. Core, Elbert pipe, he procaspase
That the world war will be between Islamic and west. And it's so
well, many people know but I think this so what what are your
opinions? Or your you foresee about this?
I'm not familiar with this particular writer, or those ideas.
I know that I don't worry about the third world war. That it's not
on my it doesn't weigh heavily on me. I do worry about our country
and I worry about what kinds of things are
country might do. And I have deep concern about other countries as
well. And just because we're American doesn't mean we can't
care about the ethics and the Justice practice by other
countries, calm, do I worry about some apocalyptic vision of the
world in some cataclysmic conflict? Some Armageddon? Nope. I
don't share that particular fear. But I do hear concern about the
choices we make as a country. And those concerns come from a place
of faith.
Let's do one more.
thing, this gentleman right here.
I'm not quite sure if this is the setting under which to ask this
question. So I just drop it if you feel like it's inappropriate for
this kind of panel, but just out of kind of like an educational
curiosity, how do each of you view religion in general? Like, is it
more of a timeless set of beliefs? That doesn't change? Or is it more
of an evolving culture that maintains core values?
Great question. I think that was entirely appropriate to this.
I'll I'll answer very quickly. So everybody has
my view. And it's not a view that's shared by all Christians,
but I'm here to requite strongly is I would, I would say, it's a
both and the way you said I, the word I would really use is it's a
practice
it, there is a core of a timeless set of beliefs as you work with
it.
I think it's a much smaller core, then then many people ascribe to
it. But it's also a lifeless core until it actually receives wings,
from the person studying it, and questioning it and practicing it,
and bringing it into community into dialogue with others.
From the Islamic perspective, Islam is a way of life. And we
definitely believe that it is that there's the religion as it is,
it's been preserved for over 1400 years. And this idea of reform or
change, it's kind of a slippery slope. And so I wouldn't
necessarily, I think, from the orthodox view, use those terms, as
opposed to dialogue, and really, you know, looking at concerns that
emerge with each passing of time with, you know, there's something
that's happening in a certain, you know,
time and place that those things are addressed in the context that
they need to be addressed, but not necessarily to alter the fate or
change the faith in any way because we believe that Islam is
preserved, and it doesn't need a reformation or a change. But that
doesn't mean that you know, things as I said that the merge because
of changing times aren't to be addressed. They absolutely are to
be addressed from, from the scholars and from the people who
are equipped to make those, you know, assessments. But other than
that, this idea of changing or evolving with the time is not
something that most Muslims,
ascribe to
five minutes away for starters, so I'm going to say just one short
question, and then
questions are good.
You talked about what you call the third space. So I'm guessing the
first space is like the kind of liturgical space and the second
space is none. So the third space is like maybe in a physical
language, we call it the Emerging Church. Can you talk more about
like how
each of your entities draws in those communities? Whether it be
around like, kind of hot issue authors I know in the emerging
church, or like in Judaism, I know there's a podcast that I listened
to that talks about Zionism, but also cultural Judaism and how they
can come together and have the same conversation. I don't know as
much about Muslim communities. So can you talk about how you draw in
those, those third spaces into your dialogues? I'd like to change
the way we think about that language. Because third space is a
particular term used by certain academics in a very precise way.
The first space is home. The second place is work. The third
space is where you go for meaning that's neither home no work. Now,
that is a very common
term that's used by a lot of academics to describe
relationships. People seek out relationships in addition to home
and work. But those relationships may happen at the gym.
They're going to happen at the bar
It could happen at this, you know, the, the particular
you always go out, you play grades once a week, whatever it might be.
People have communities that they build synagogues, churches,
mosques are third spaces. They are the third spaces in people's lives
for those people who feel embedded in them. In this sense, the
alternatives to synagogues, mosques, the, the, you know, the
Jewish treaties have around movement, but whatever the places
Muslims go, that isn't the mosque is also a third space. In that
sense, it's no different than the mosque. It's a place people go for
meaning, in addition to the primary places that were that we
all occupy. And we've all got it. But it's not the same for all.
Say something fairly similar to Rabbi Miller, I actually do take
issue with sort of third space language because of, I think, in
the words of CS Lewis and Anglican scholar from last century said,
you know, Christianity has to be either overwhelmingly first or not
at all. And his point being not not not to shake a stick at
people, but rather to say, you don't need God any less when
you're peeling potatoes at your sink and preparing dinner for your
family, or when you're sitting at desk, working all day than you do
when you go to church on Sunday morning. So there really, if you
are seeking that meaning that transcendence and divine presence
in your life at all, seek it everywhere, and in all your spaces
and all your settings and all your times. And so I would say, you
know, my goal as a minister, is to try to facilitate that for people
you know, to decompartmentalize D professionalize the religion, and
make it something that is tangible and practicable. 24/7.
As you're giving your answer, Cisco say you just kind of give us
a personal reflection on where we're at on meats, too. I know,
the brochure has a lot of patients debbik in there, just give up
personal.
Just to answer your question about the third space, as I mentioned,
it sort of emerged from a need that people had that who felt that
they didn't have a place in the mosque. But I think, you know, to
address, you know, again, this is completely based on my experience.
The people who, who sought out third spaces are people who maybe
were looking for
a more progressive sort of identity as almost one. And they
felt that by coming into mosques, where there's, you know, more
expectation to sort of, you know, follow certain rules, and there's,
you know, certain parameters that they want it to be kind of free
from that. And so, you know, the, the places that I've been to are,
there's a motto, for example, and one of them that says, Come as you
are to Islam, isn't it. So it's like an open door policy, you can
come regardless of whether you're Sunni or Shia, whether you are new
to the faith, or you've been practicing for a long time,
whether you wear the hijab, for example, if you're a Muslim woman,
or you choose not to. So it's really very open minded. And it's,
you know, desert, there aren't as many restrictions. And so I think
that's the model that's worked and a lot of people really appreciate
that because they, they do find that there is a place of non
judgment, there's a place where they can just be themselves. And,
you know, and so, but that doesn't mean to say, though, that they
don't still, you know, come to the mosque, I think it's just an
additional space that they can go and find that that sort of again,
sense of belonging to
outside. Oh, sure. You over there. Okay.
Thank you.