A Conversation on Mental Health, Psychiatry, Psychotherapy & Islam
Channel: Hamza Tzortzis
File Size: 61.15MB
with Dr Abu Eesa @drabueesa6251
Salam Alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh brothers and sisters and friends and welcome to this video Alhamdulillah I have a very special guest with me today and before we start to speak to him, I want to introduce him Alhamdulillah I just saw his bio today and I was Al Hamdulillah extremely impressed with the loss of Hannah Montana bless him and his family and grant him and his family the best in both worlds. So with us today we have Dr. Abu Issa. He is a senior consultant in addiction and Child and Adolescent Psychiatry. About Isa was brought up in the North East of England attending the Royal Grammar School in Newcastle, which is going to be interesting. I'll ask him some questions about
that. During which time he was a young scientist of the year much a lot about UCLA. He completed his medical degree at Oxford University, as well as a BA in Physiological Sciences. After finishing medical school, he returned to the north east to undertake his foundation training and spent one year training in orthopedics. Thereafter, he completed his psychiatric training in child and adolescent psychiatry in Manchester. Dr. Amber Issa is passionate about mental health and well being and he's a strong advocate for supporting adolescents and young adults with mental health. He assesses and treats adults, children and young people with emotional, behavioral and mental health
difficulties. So I'm going to ask him about his kind of expertise with regards to looking at the Twitter, Muslim Twitter and to see if you could derive any mental health with regards to some of us engaging in Muslim Twitter anyway, in addition to having extensive experience in pharmacotherapy, he has also been trained in delivering psychological therapy. This includes psychodynamic psychotherapy, cognitive behavioral therapy, and family therapy. He has worked as a consultant psychiatrist in a variety of settings, including adolescent psychic psychiatric Intensive Care Unit. Dr. Amber Issa is currently working in Qatar, where he set up and developed a dynamic specialist
substance misuse service for adolescents. Dr. Issa is a practicing Muslim Alhamdulillah who believes in integrating therapeutic interventions from the Quran and Sunnah with the Western understanding of psychiatry and mental health. He works collaboratively with the Messiah, and students of knowledge like star Tim humble who had who I had the pleasure of meeting for the first time a few months ago in Ramadan. And he deals with a various complex cases that require a combination of Rukia and psychiatric interventions. His expertise includes working with individuals who have been affected by gin position and syrup magic. He works with people who have experienced trauma and uses trauma
informed care to help people overcome the crises. Dr. Lisa is actively involved in major medical education including teaching and training of junior doctors, and medical students. He is passionate about research, and has presented a number of international conferences. He's presented at a number of international conferences, including Australia, Canada and Mexico, at the World Congress of psychiatry, his work with young offenders with traumatic brain injury has been been published. Now that's a long bio but is well worth
elaborating on this bio, my dear brothers and sisters and I think it's a sign of our social media malaise. We have such amazing brothers practicing brothers with in depth knowledge on specific fields, and frankly, we don't use them enough. And I'm delighted and I think Dr. Issa abreeza, for allowing me to have the opportunity to engage with him so we could promote his work, promote his narratives, and inshallah This is the first of many discussions so Dr. Dilip man for coming on board.
circle here Salam alaykum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh Bismillah Alhamdulillah wa salatu salam ala Rasulillah rubbish lovely Saturday while you're still young, very welcome Watlow Nakata, Melissa and EF Kamakoti. Salam aleikum okay Hamza it was very embarrassing. When you reading out my biography. I didn't realize that you know, when somebody else reads it, it's actually quite embarrassing but just like hello here for having me it's an honor being following your work for a long time mashallah long robotic May Allah bless you and your family for amazing work that you do.
And yeah, it's an honor for me to finally
meet you virtually I know we've been in contact through WhatsApp etc. So it was a cool affair and I really look forward to the conversation this evening. It is not going to hell no you shouldn't be you shouldn't be shy, although it's a good sign. But I think the brothers and sisters watching this should know who you are, and that we have
lots of hair in the Ummah, you know, when we deal with Shewhart, we deal with destructive doubts. One of our strategies, we have 10 effective strategies. One of the strategies is to seek a specialist, and a lot, a lot of Shewhart a lot of disruptive does as a result of trauma. They're a result of not being specialized in a particular topic. And you are one of the specialists in trauma. You're one of the specialists in psychiatry, and it's our duty to give people like yourselves platform, my dear brother, and I will have to say is, you know, I'm very impressed with your bio. May Allah bless you. So, the first question I have, I think, and you know, we're gonna try and keep
this as dynamic, organic as possible, is, why what happened, how comes you got into this field? You know, tell me a little bit a little bit about your story and your journey in Sharla. Okay.
So I always like to find out kind of backgrounds about people. So I'll just briefly mentioned to you Hamdulillah, my father is a is a doctor as well. He's a nephrologist, kidney specialist. So I've been a bit of a Abudu a nomad. So I lived in Saudi for quite a few years as a youngster in Riyadh, and then moved to the UK, moved to Manchester for a couple of years, then moved back to Saudi, and then moved back to the UK up north, to God land in 95, where I did my schooling and then went to medical school.
So I always wanted to be a surgeon. And as you read, I did a year of orthopedic surgery after I graduated medical school,
but in the back of my mind, and also in medical school, hamdulillah in my psychiatry rotation, I did, I got the kind of the top mark in Oxford. So the trading program director, he says, he suggested to me to consider a career in psychiatry, but that was kind of in the back of my head. So when I started my surgical training, that it was at the time for those of people, for your brothers and sisters, you know, about medicine, it was the European Working Time Directive, there's changes in working hours with junior doctors, and that really impacted surgical training. So I wanted to do a shift. And I thought of psychiatry
for a couple of reasons, one, because I knew I was good at it. And another reason was, I saw a gap in the in the OMA so I always wanted to do something to help them Alhamdulillah Allah subhanaw taala gave me that near an intention.
So I saw a gap in mental health, because many psychiatrists and psychologists who are Muslim, unfortunately, a lot of them are not practicing. So they kind of give advice and treatment purely from a secular perspective. This is what I had observed. So I thought that this is something that I could kind of, you know, consider as a career. And also, I've always had an interest in kind of the interface between magic and gin possession, and how that kind of interacts with kind of the Western framework or paradigm of mental health. So yeah, so Hamdulillah, like, I considered that, and then it's the foreign policy, and that was the start of the journey. And here I am now, many years later,
and Hamdulillah. So how have you found it so far? Has it been challenging? How would you describe the overall experience?
You know, Hamdulillah, I think everything happens for a reason. So as you know, for the last probably, I would say around 10 to 15 years, there's been a lot of
awareness about mental well being and mental illness, obviously, with the COVID pandemic, you know, there's been a significant increase in prevalence of mental disorders, substance use is becoming an increasing issue. So I think Allah subhanaw taala put me in mental health at a time where there's, there's a big crisis, and there's a need. It's been challenging as I'm sure every career path is challenging.
One of the challenges has been other people kind of saying, you know, why are you doing psychiatry? Can you rent where you went to Oxford? Why don't you do you know, why did you continue surgery, but because I'm very passionate about mental health, especially for young people, because you know, Subhan Allah, the Ummah was great when the youngsters were attached to the Quran and Sunnah and had, you know, good
nurturing upbringing. And so child and adolescent psychiatry has given me an opportunity to you know, work with young people, both Muslim and non Muslim, and help them achieve healthy well being and inshallah good future. So it's been challenging. I would say the last kind of couple of years since I've been in Potter has been more challenging because I'm working in substance use.
And panela. You know, it's been a bit of a shock, to be honest.
Kind of seeing the prevalence of substance use amongst Muslim communities. Obviously, in the UK, I was aware of it but in you didn't, I didn't expect such an issue in the Muslim lands to be honest. So yeah, that's been a really steep learning curve for me.
So have you
you in some way felt that it impacted your own mental health that you had challenges your own mental health? If so, how have you overcome it? Because I could just imagine when you're dealing with people with trauma, and psycho social, psycho emotive, psycho spiritual
issues is going to affect you in some way. No one's perfect. So, if you've had a little bit of a challenge, what strategies have you adopted to overcome them? So part of our as a brilliant question, Marshall OMSA, part of our training, we start something called balanced group. So the our trainers recognize, so this was I was doing my psychiatry training, that, you know, we come across very challenging cases, complex cases, like you mentioned, particularly around trauma, like sexual abuse, and, you know, self harming and suicidality. So we used to have like this weekly kind of support group, which was chaired by one of the training program directors, and that will give us an
opportunity to kind of articulate our emotions, and if particular cases had affected us, but to be honest, on Hamdulillah, for me, I deal with kind of very traumatic cases and challenging cases by turning to Allah subhanaw taala. Because, you know, honestly, I, I really appreciate now that how important it is to have a strong connection with Allah subhanaw taala. And to believe in other and to believe that this life is a test, because I honestly don't know how atheists can live this life, particularly work in the mental health field, and, you know, kind of the, the really
emotionally kind of heavy cases that we see, like, you know, especially because I've worked in forensic psychiatry, as well. So I've seen serious, violent offenders, you know, usually a lot of them have been abused
when they were younger themselves, and experienced domestic violence and parental substance use. So alhamdulillah for Islam, you know, it gives me the opportunity to, you know, really focus and appreciate that this life is a test. And it's very temporary.
Well, there's ocular health. So this leads me to something that has come to my mind. And I usually use this a lot. And I took this from various sources. And usually, obviously, I'm not qualified to deal with mental health, I'm not qualified to deal with any of these issues. But as a general principle, I articulate this publicly. And I get people to stand in the possibility that the meaning that they've given a particular trauma is not the only meaning. And generally speaking, I advise for them to go to specialists to specialists. So what I basically say is stunning the possibility that the meaning you're giving this, this particular experience or trauma is not the only meaning. And
for Muslims, I would say, try and give the meaning that Allah that the Quran and the Sunnah wants you to give it and once you do that, and you stand in that possibility that your meaning is not the only meaning that you shouldn't try and give the meaning of Allah and His Messenger sallallahu alayhi wa sallam is trying to give it, it would allow you to transcend your trauma to a certain degree or at least allow you to have coping mechanisms grounded in your spiritual tradition.
I want you to assess that. Is that totally wrong? How should I refine it? Should I with just to be crude? Should I shut my mouth? Because, you know, I, you know, I usually talk about this but not in a specialist sense. But just as a kind of give them a different paradigm given given them a different way of thinking because it's grounded in cognitive science as well. You know, standing the possibility of the meaning that you're giving this is not the only meaning, try and give the meaning that the Quran and the Sunnah is trying to give and that would allow you to be more empowered. Is that a good advice? Or should I just like, close my mouth?
No, it's, I think that's brilliant advice. So I think we would call that cognitive reframing. So
an experience that we all have, and we have to realize that this this life is a test. So all of us will be tested to different degrees in different, you know, areas of our life. So yeah, so what you're what you're advising individuals is to refrain and to re kind of use a different perspective to the traumatic experience that they've they've had, and this is really good advice. And there's really a spectrum Hamza, because, you know, some people, they can develop disorders, mental disorders, like post traumatic stress disorder, which then becomes like a neurobiological issue. So it is a really big spectrum, you know, from somebody who may have had a traumatic experience and
traumatic experiences can be different for individuals, something that you might think of, you know, this is rubbish. There's not really trauma for the individual who's experiencing that actually, for them. It is really traumatic, you know, it's not always like sexual abuse or, you know, vile
So murder or you know, war, it can be anything. So you have to first of all validate the feelings of that individual which which you are obviously have done, and then give them
constructive advice. And that reframing is really important is really good, what I would recommend, which is what I do in my clinical practice and, and kind of voluntary work because obviously I work with non Muslims as well. So it doesn't, it can work with non Muslims, but we're focusing here on Muslims because we work we want to use the Islamic paradigm is always to, to go back to the Quran and Sunnah. And men talk about the lives of the prophets, you know, subhanAllah, like the prophets of Salaam, Ahmed Hassan, the year of sadness, it was named that because of he experienced human emotions of sadness, because he lost his wife, Khadija and his grandfather, you know, subhanAllah
and also the fact that he lost six of his children during his lifetime, three sons in infancy in an in a culture in a society where having a son was everything. On top of that his uncle, you know, was making fun of him and mocking him and he lost his son solemn. So imagine the traumatic experience he had, and he was a human being at the end of the day, we, you know, we believe he was a human being he had human psychology, and how did he deal with those difficulties? You know, jacobellis Salaam Yakubu de salaam, his beloved son use of was abducted by his own his own brothers, and then he was absent for years. And through the sadness, he became blind, you know, subhanAllah, so he did that
trauma. And if you look at the perspective of useable Islam, you know, a young child, he was abducted by his brothers left to die, and then he was enslaved, and then kind of he had multiple traumas, but Hamdulillah he achieved amazing things in this life, because he connected himself to Allah subhanaw taala. So we are not the only ones who have experienced trauma. You know, the whole prophetic traditions are full of prophets who went through a lot. And you know, we can learn from that. Yeah, subhanAllah it's very interesting. You say that, because, for example, Surah Al CalHFA, was revealed because of the death of the son of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa salam. And so Kalfa
is not a divine condolences. It's actually a reframing, it's focusing on gratitude is focusing on abundance. And that was the power of the Quran and the power of the Sunnah, to give the meaning of this trauma, though he was going through suffering, but to give you the meaning that Allah wants him to give and that helped him transcend his trauma to particularly in a particular sense, also with the Apple Valley Salaam. And I've mentioned this before, which I find so powerful. This is just my data, but it's just my pondering. Maybe it could, you know, share a few thoughts on this Jacoba Alaihe Salam basically says in this sort of use of anything around verse 87, around verse 8080,
something he says that I complain of my grief to Allah alone, but straight after this verse, he says to his sons, who were, he says, you know, who are looking for use of allihies Salaam and his brother Yameen. He said, Do not despair of the life giving Mercy of Allah only those who reject the truth, despair of the life giving Mercy of Allah and for me that a double is this when you're going through grief, complained to Allah, talk to Allah connect to Allah, but also remind others about Allah's mercy, because that would help you and I find sometimes when people are involved in psychotherapy and psychiatry, is actually the whole their whole career is helping them as well. Right? We'll see
Yeah, beautiful. I agree with articulation, you know, subhanAllah as Muslims, you know, Allah Subhana Allah has blessed us with with the Quran and the Sunnah. But what I find Hamza, I'm sure you you've probably experienced this though, as Muslims, even practicing Muslims, we tend to like neglect our tradition. Subhanallah Islam is so rich, I mean, I'm a doctor, I'm a psychiatrist. And I'm taking things back to the Quran and to the Sunnah, to you know, as a treatment, and as Skydance Subhan Allah, but we often neglect we we kind of, you know, we don't live the Quran and we don't live the prophetic tradition. If we actually lived it our lives to be a lot easier, easier. Another
story I always think is very powerful in the imagery, you know, New Orleans, New Orleans, salam, when he's on on the ark, and he's seeing his son on top of the mountain drowning, and he makes dua to Allah subhanaw taala to save his son, and what does Allah to Allah subhanaw taala admonishes him and says he's not from you, because he's an evildoer. So just imagine yourself I'm a father, your father, just imagine you in that in that situation, you've seen your son, your beloved son drown, and Allah subhanaw taala doesn't accept you to earth right but and what does Newell Islam do? He doesn't complain.
He asked for forgiveness. He says yeah Allah please forgive me for asking for something which I shouldn't have asked for. So you know, these things, these nuggets, and these are really important for us to internalize and also to share with people who are suffering.
Subhanallah and the other thing was because we're talking about trauma and difficult life experiences, which gives me comfort when I go through difficulties and some of my patients is to you know, the famous Hadith about the on the Day of Judgment. When Allah subhanaw taala will order the angels to dip somebody in the Hellfire for one dip, and this person had the most amazing life. You can imagine. Lamborghinis, palaces, women, whatever they needed. And just one day when he's removed, Allah subhanaw taala lost my slave, how was your life, and it's a year ago, I don't remember any luxury, any conflict, my life was full of hardships, how Allah and the opposite is true. The one who
went through so much difficulties, and you can imagine, you know, like, in Africa, people are dying of famine in Syria, people are being bombed, you know, any kind of really negative and adverse life experiences, we were lucky, we don't go through that. And that person we dipped in Jannah, for one day, and Allah started asking my slave, how was your life and you say, y'all, I don't remember any hardship, I just remember comfort and ease. So this is also very important to internalize, because it shows that this life is very temporary, you know, subhanAllah Inshallah, in the orchestra, we will not even remember, like, this life would be like, an afternoon or a morning. So you know, these
things are really important to reflect on as individuals and amongst our families, you know, especially young people, we should have these discussions with our children and the youth because they're going to go through a lot of fitten you know, what we went through, the fitness only going to increase now SubhanAllah. And, you know, it's really important that we advise and internalize these these things. I think it's so important you said this, because it goes back to the point of we must have a tell heeded perspective on these issues, right? Assuming the unicity of Allah subhanho wa taala. Because not Allah, he's Salam. He responded because he understands who Allah is. He
understands his names and attributes, he understands that Allah is, you know, a Roman intensity men merciful, He is a, he's the rub. He is the master, the owner of the maintaining the standard, everything that exists. Also, you know, part of the arcade is to believe in the ark era. And you know, this beautiful Hadith from is a Hadith of hope, you know, as you said, the one who was destined for Paradise, and he suffered a whole lifetime would be dipped for a split moment. And then you'd be asked, Did you ever suffer? You'd be like, well, like I've never suffered. And so it's, it's actually really important because your worldview is like your lens, right? You put a lens on,
and it shapes the way you understand reality, the way you understand things, right? And it shapes the way you relate to them. It shapes your way of being now. Yes. So we're talking about mental health and trauma. Now, as you know, and I think you've said this a lot on social media.
Why is this such a stigma now even now in the Muslim community concerning mental health?
Brilliant question. Firstly, it's the stigma around mental health globally. And I think it's even magnified more in the Muslim community. I think there's a couple of factors to that one, we don't understand mental health and mental illness and well being. There's a lot of research literature on Muslims, and when they seek help seeking behavior, and what happens is usually they will seek help because of a physical complaint, chest pain, shortness of breath, headaches, migraines, and
when they when there's no organic cause, identified, so no physical cause, they usually get referred to a psychiatrist or mental health professionals. And what I've noticed is that we tend, we tend to Soma ties, our psychological distress in the Muslim community, especially kind of like, I'm not stereotyping, but like females, you know, going through kind of marital discord. And they admit they're probably suffering from depression. But they manifest the symptoms as physical symptoms, because it's not considered like you consider to be weak. If you say, Oh, I feel sad, or I feel depressed, I feel anxious, even amongst the brothers as well. You know, I'm sure you've got friends,
like, we were reluctant to share our emotions, which goes against the prophetic tradition because there's so many, you know, narrations about the prophets of salaam crying, and being emotional, you know? So this kind of like, masculinity, false masculinity. I think this is one of the reasons also, that we don't seek psychological and mental health support in the Muslim community. The other thing also, I think, I think people don't believe in mental illness and mental disorder. Generally speaking in the Muslim community, they think that, you know, because you can't like see it, feel it like
If you break a bone, you have an x ray and you see a fracture, right? If you have a heart attack, you have an ECG or an ultrasound scan or an echocardiogram, which shows the the abnormality. But with the mind, like if your mind is dysfunctional or disordered, you don't you can't see it, other than somebody vocalizing their experiences. So if we are if we don't have that emotional intelligence, and the ability to articulate our emotions, that causes a lot of suffering. And this is another issue, I think, and I think the other thing is also people are very skeptical about medication in mental health, you know, the media has been, unfortunately,
an adversary of mental health and psychiatry. So I don't know if you've seen like things like Shutter Island with Leonardo DiCaprio. There's a lot of kinds of films, which depict these asylums, you know, very horrible places where people are, you know, detained under the Mental Health Act, and they experience very negative experiences. So I think there's the stigma has been built up by the media, as well around mental health and mental illness. So those are some of the factors I believe,
are the reasons why, you know, Muslims and gender the general population are skeptical about mental illness. Yeah, I mean, mental illness, and it's a broad spectrum, of course, is is actually real. I mean, I know that even my personal life, and you know, when you get stresses and strains from being active online and on social media and the Dow in general, and you're traveling, you know, I was thinking about putting out a tweet today thinking or yesterday or something that, you know, like, for example, sounds kind of basic, but you know, going to the gym is actually very important for my mental health. If I'm not yet you know, connected to the gym, in some sense, it affects my I don't
know, my dopamine levels I don't I'm not a scientist, I don't know much about the brain, but you know, it does affect me and I see a correlation between me being consistent from a physical perspective and how it affects my my psychology, also the foods that I eat. And you know, I derive this from the son of the process salaam, he used to have this this drink, it was like a barley honey drink instead, it was like as soon as the soul so it has a somatic psychosomatic effect, right? So even the foods that you eat can affect you and I see this even in my own life, right. And, you know, lately because maybe of some travel, I've been feeling a bit maybe discombobulated or disorientated
or even maybe not myself, so I was speaking to him yesterday, and he gave me some fun oh, the day before he gave me some phenomenal advice. He said, you know, do Salawat on the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam right which is based on various a hadith sahih hadith of believers in, in an interior mid interior movie and so on and so forth. That when you send Salawat on the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, you know, I think Allah forgives you. And he rectifies your affairs, right, which include The Mentalist is, and I walked to the masjid today for Juma
and I was doing Salawat. And looking back. I know, it sounds like you know, you know, maybe a spiritual cliche, but actually felt good, right, honestly, like, this are really important. And now, I don't want this to I don't want to show the community that oh, you know, I'm a personal Salawat I am not. Yeah, I should be. I want to show that when I adopted it, you know, extensively, because it was a long walk. It's something happened, right? You know, but I actually spoke no to only to a chef, I spoke to people from different kind of demographic and age groups. And when they adopted something similar consistently, something changed. They said, yes, they said, our problems were the
same, but the way we dealt with the problems, and our psychological disposition was totally different. And this is the power of Salawat.
The dean right from that perspective, so you made some brilliant points Hamza, mashallah, I think you should consider careers in psychiatry, you've got your book.
It's quite funny because I first started out doing psychology years ago, like in the 90s, late 90s. And then obviously, my academic career shifted to philosophy. And in psychology, my teacher will say to me, you're in the wrong class or the wrong object, because I always question the philosophical assumptions of the psychological discipline. For example, when we went through cognitive behavioral therapy, or the behavioral approach of psychodynamic approach, or whatever, or the human centric approach, Carl Rogers, and so on and so forth. I was watching the foundations. I'm like, Hey, this is philosophy, psychology, right. But anyway, you were saying, I couldn't Yeah, I just wanted to
build up on some of the things you said. Exercise is very is very important. Exercise releases endorphins, which are natural hormones, and chemicals. And there's been a lot of studies that have shown that they have an antidepressant effect and when
elevating effect. So regular exercise is very very important it doesn't have to be you know hardcore intense intensive exercise even going for a walk for 10 minutes 15 minutes a day any any swimming is very very good. So having that holistic perspective food diet Subhanallah you know you mentioning these things and this is what the Western kind of academia and recommendations are but look go go back to the life of the prophet slalom, he was very active you know he recommended wrestling and you know horse riding these exercises you know, what about his dietary lifestyle the famous Hadith if if you need to eat eat a few more so, so your backbone can be straight. If you need to eat more eat for
till your stomach is a third full and leave a third left for air and a third left for fluids Subhanallah This is amazing advice because overeating leads to psychological issues physical health issues and generally feeling rubbish you know Subhanallah so again, balanced diet exercise very important. And
what I recommend and this is to give you the Romani we discussed this the hydrotherapy I call it Julian Brother, brother, I promote him quite a lot on Instagram when I see stuff my show I love that
guy. I mean, we could praise him behind his back. He's, he's like, he's a role model. I can honestly when he comes across and his prophetic masculinity and yeah, sure.
I really like it. And I've got a really, really funny conversation I had with him years ago, but I could never never say publicly but it was every time I remember I told them brothers that they in stitches. But yeah, it's a beauty. I mean, I'm doing what a lot of work with Gabriel. So I actually did a
q&a with him on Sunday. And we're talking about these kinds of things mental health, because obviously he's a counselor as well. Yes. But he was talking about the hydrotherapy. So you know, you mentioned like, sending Salawat taking stuff power is the far as much as you can. This really helps you with with us dealing with issues in our life, waking up in the middle of the night, the last night of the night and praying to Allah subhanaw taala complaining to him about your situation, putting your head on the on the ground. I wish I could do a study looking at brain science, where for those people who pray tahajjud and looking at kind of the dopamine levels, and any brain changes
that happen. I no doubt about it. There's definitely chemical changes that occur when somebody presses tahajjud in the middle of the night, you know, when everybody is sleeping? Okay, you complete almost Pousada. So, these things we don't we we neglect, you know, we tend to like go and seek secular recommendations, read books, you know, leadership. Again, leadership is another thing, you know, you the seven habits of an effective person, all these kinds of things are in our prophetic tradition, mindfulness. You know, mindfulness is very topical. Now in mental health. Mindfulness is a strategy where it comes from Buddhist kind of traditions, and it's been really
heavily promoted in mental health. And I remember I went to this mindfulness training, it was a mandatory thing. And subhanAllah, I said to the trainer, I said, Look, what you are teaching, this is what we are taught, when we pray our Salah to have shoe and salon to be mindful, to be mindful that you're standing in front of the king of kings, your Creator, and you know, you're having a conversation with him that's being present in the in the moment. And honestly, this is Hamza, what they're teaching, you know, being present in the moment and not overthinking what's gonna come next. All of this mindfulness, we have it in our tradition, but we don't practice it, and we don't promote
it Subhanallah upon.
So you mentioned about, you know, pharmacotherapy in psychiatry. Now, I have to read this question, because it's a bit long. So. And this is my kind of, you know, philosophy of science background coming in right. Now, given the transient nature or scientific conclusions, because science is evolving and changing, and our pixelated understanding of the brain or phonology, if you like, including new advances in cognitive psychology? Is it wise just to rely on pharmacotherapy in psychiatry as a final solution for mental health? Or would you advocate something that maybe a little bit more holistic will be your views on this type of question? Yeah. I think there's been a
shift in psychiatry, I would say like maybe that 3040 years ago, there was a heavy emphasis on medication. But I think over the last 20 years, certainly since I've been training and practicing, we use the much more holistic approach bio psychosocial and I add the spiritual aspect as well. So what that means for your brothers and sisters who are not aware biological treatments, psychological treatments, social interventions, and then obviously spiritual interventions as well. So
If we take a very holistic approach, for example, let's take depression, depressive illness, if you look at the diagnostic classifications within psychiatry, so we have two main ones, the the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for mental disorders. And then we have the ICD by the WHO. So we have like severity of disorders. And it's the severity is determined by the level of impairment in your functioning. So for example, somebody might suffer from a mild depressive disorder, which means that yes, they feeling low, they've got some of the cognitive symptoms of low mood and you know, memory issues, but they're still functioning. And then on the
other end, you might have some new severely depressed and has psychotic symptoms. So what that means is, they lose sense of reality, because they're so severely depressed, they might become mute and completely shut down. So So for example, the first person, we will recommend only psychological intervention, something like CBT, or supportive counseling, and medication would not be recommended for that person. But for the second person who has severe depression with psychosis, medication has a really important role to play. So to answer your question, yeah, it's not just medication, there's a combination of treatments that we recommend.
And there was a brother actually, I'll share this with you.
In fact, a young guy 1819 years old, so his father contacted me. So I worked with a lot of machines if I don't know if you know, she has a she has him Raj up here and part of his
Egyptian American amazing chef Mashallah. So he basically promotes kind of people coming to me, obviously, this is not this is voluntary, so it's not like, on the record is off the record. So anyway, this brother contacted me saying that my son's suicidal.
Do you mind like speaking to him? Subhan Allah, Muslim guy, so they came to my house, the Father and the Son, really amazing mashallah youngster half of Quran, you know, very respectful to his family, no substance use nothing. But he mentioned to me that he'd be he'd been feeling depressed for the preceding six months. And he didn't know why it was, you know, had the these feelings of intense kind of loneliness and dips in his mood. He was still going to university, but he was not feeling like sense of achievement. And his friend had actually committed suicide, he jumped off a building upon my father. So this really adversely affected this young brother. So I had a discussion with
him, and he and he said, Look, doctor that I'm really I really think I'm going to kill myself. Subhanallah you know, he prayed for us five times a day. He was happy to have Quran. But he said, I don't know I'm getting these negative thoughts and emotions and intensive feelings, I want to kill myself.
And I don't know what to do. And he mentioned that two or three times, he actually almost jumped off a building or jumped in front of a car. But he said Subhanallah something stopped him. And that really scared him. And then he told his father then obviously, that's how I got involved. And for this young man, I recommended a treatment with medication. So we usually use SSRIs. fluoxetine is the first line.
And his father was reluctant. But I said, Look, I think he's kind of tipping into severe depression. And if it's not treated, initially with medication, there's a risk that you know, he might end up killing himself. Subhanallah so he agreed, and mashallah after two months of treatment with medication, and that some psychological therapy Alhamdulillah, he recovered from his depressive illness.
So, you know, there are cases where we need to use medication. Another case, another very good friend of mine is sister married. After she gave birth, she became psychotic, she believed that the baby was possessed by demons Muslim sister, and she was having intrusive thoughts about wanting to drown her baby.
And, you know, he contacted me obviously very concerned is mashallah is a very amazing brother. So I recommend that she needed to be hospitalized because you know, this was postpartum psychosis. Basically, women who give delivery, they are at risk of psychotic illnesses. And I said, Look, you really need to get her admitted she was refusing admission. So I recommended that she should be detained under the Mental Health Act for her own safety and for her maybe safety. She spent again, I think two or three months as an inpatient Hamdulillah. Treated, discharged and now hamdulillah she's doing very well.
So you know, there are medication plays a very important role. Sure, Shawn reminds me I think is the Hadith of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, when he spoke about that, you know, for every disease, there is a cure and we should seek the cure. And those cures can include not only this medication, but also psychological cures as well. So it's a holistic approach does not quite have for that. Does ocular hair. So my next question sorry,
dimension. The Quran also Allah says first decree in quantum law known as the people of knowledge, if you don't know, this is not restricted to only Islamic knowledge is restrict is also applies to expertise in every field. And the goal golden period of of Islam. We had, we were the forefront that in all fields in science in astrology, you know, in medicine in Islamic sciences, why because we didn't restrict ourselves to Islamic sciences, we were, you know, at the forefront of all all secular sciences as well. So, absolutely, it's important. Yeah, it's important for us to not restrict ourselves, you know, some people tend to say, Oh, the Imam can sort everything out, or the
chef can sort everything out. And, and you know, what I've read, and I think this is really important. I've been working with people like Tim, and she has him, you know, what they always recommend, they say, Look, we have this brother, go to him, exclude the mental illness first, and then come to us. And then we can explore whether you've got an issue with her or magic, which a very good point because I was about to ask you about this topic. Because, you know, generally speaking, sometimes certain, you know, groups within the Muslim community or cultures within the Muslim community, when there's a mental health issue, they go straight to gym, they go straight to the
spirit world, they go straight to all of these things. But I think I heard once from a chef or a student of knowledge told me that you need to let me know if this is true that you need to first
exhaust all of the naturalistic explanation. So once you exhaust all of the naturalistic explanations, then that is an indicator for something non natural, if you like, was super natural. Is that a correct approach to take and advice? Yeah, definitely. Yeah, definitely. So because of my work with people like Tim hammer, Tim, and she has him and there's some other machines I work with.
This is what I mentioned that I tried to integrate kind of the Western concept of psychiatry, the Western paradigm and the Islamic understanding, I feel that we over attribute emotional and behavioral issues to jinn, and kind of the shape the unseen. And so people like Tim, we work collaboratively. We do, like I will do a mental health assessment, he will do like a spiritual or Islamic kind of Rukia assessment. But if you speak to them, everybody always says that please go and see a psychiatrist and exclude a mental illness, even some Subhanallah you will be surprised if I told you I'll maybe we can have a discussion of camera because of confidentiality. There are many
machines I've worked with, and their families who have required antidepressants, antipsychotics, and even one chef, he complained to me said my wife, she's attributing everything to Jin and the evil eye. And he had to literally force her to speak to me, and she had classic depressive illness. So when she when she started medication and psychological therapy, she recovered, you know, but even now, she tends to go back when she has because, you know, mental illness can be kind of relapsing remitting. So when she has like a dip, she will tell her the chef or her husband, look, I think somebody's done black magic on me. So psychologically, I think we're programmed to always attribute
to the, to the unseen world. It's not to say that there that's not an important thing to to, to address, but I think it's okay to be over attributed as an Oma. Yeah, and I think and this is my, probably my own maybe ego or context or just my own spin on things. But to be frank, I sometimes feel this also comes from a lack of
self accountability. Sometimes we don't like attributing things to our own condition, we like to blame something external to ourselves, and it's part of our collective disempowerment. Really, we're like, oh, it's not me. It's the spirit world. It's not me. It's someone's evil eye. It's not me. It's, it's not, you know, my behavior, it's something else. And that comes from a particular way of being which can be because of our collective narcissism in a post secular, individualistic society, it could be because of liberalism and excessive individualism, it could be a sense of so many different things, but I find it it comes also from a place of disempowerment or not will hope or a
sense of egoism, not willing to, to actually blame yourself right to blame others. This is the shaytaan game, right? The blame game, right? But, you know, Allah teaches us that we need to have a sense of self accountability. And I think this, this brings it back to a more kind of wider issue, which is not today's topic, but it's an important topic, which is basically to scuttle knifes. It's the purification of the soul, the communication of the diseases of the heart and Kibera. The major diseases of the heart right, and a manifestation of Kibera is it wasn't my fault, right? It's somebody else. It's still me somebody else. And sometimes we can have that sense of Cuba that sense
of arrogance or ego being expressed in the
For ways and sometimes it's like, I'm not going to take responsibility. It's something other than me. And I've seen that. And it's unfortunate. And I don't know why, you know, even us as practicing communities in, you know, in the Muslim community, we tend to have that approach. And I don't know what it I don't know why maybe I don't know why it exists. But I think it's a sense of a lack of tarbiyah lack of, you know, going back to the Ronaldson on these issues and actually engaging in the hard work of scooter laughs You know, yeah, I agree with you Hamza. The other thing, what kind of, again, we're generalizing, but the things that I've seen proved, through my experience, and through
my clinical experience of work, is that generally speaking, as an OMA,
we are far away from our creator in terms of the connection with Allah Subhana Allah, you know, Allah mentioned under the decree law, a doctrinal Galoob surely definitely in the remembrance of Allah do hearts find peace, and you know, woman decree for in Allahumma, Eastern Dunker, this is a very powerful verse.
Those who stay away from my remembrance will definitely live a miserable life a consistent life. And honestly, subhanAllah, I would say, 90% of the cases I see, the individual or the family members are not regular in their salah. They haven't open the Quran regularly. They're not working hard in terms of memorizing the Quran, the children, or the tarbiyah is absent. Again, I'm generalizing. But what I'm saying these are common themes I see. And definitely even for us to reflect on like, are we? Are we fulfilling the obligations to Allah subhanaw taala. Because I think that deficiency is there on the level of the Ummah, on a macro level, and on a micro level as well, how many of us make our
family members up for, you know, for tahajjud, or for Fajr. You know, we have teenagers and you say, Oh, they've got school, let them pray for them when they wake up. But that's the wrong, that's the wrong perspective, because we have to, you know, train our children to connect to Allah subhanaw taala. And what I've also, again, this is going off topic, but I've also noticed that a lot of people who will become more third will leave the team, because of the emotional reasons, they go through something, a lot of hardship or whatever, but because their connection to almost patal as weak or absent, that can push them into disbelief. And that really scared that really scares me, I
think, especially now, because of the alphabet movement, and all this kind of stuff that's coming through and the fit and increasing, I'll fear for ourselves and our children. And you know, that the Hadith that the scary Hadith, at the end of times, the person will sleep as a believer and wake up as a disbeliever. And the person that wakes up as a believer, by the evening will become a disbeliever. So I think that we really need to emphasize this and mashallah, you're, you're active, you have a widespread kind of exposure, we need to emphasize going back to basics and ensuring that we connect ourselves to our Creator, as best as we can. And it's a continuous journey. It's not
like, we achieved it, you know, we have to continuously strive and work hard, because we tend to focus on dunya even as practicing people, okay, I need to attend this training program, I need to you know, upskill myself in this, which is good, but we neglect the basic Islamic obligations, many people I've seen, they're doing streams, and they're like, oh, we need to pray. Fudger just hang on. So I think to myself, it's not a criticism, but like, surely you should be going to the masjid for Fudger while you're praying at home, you know, the famous Hadith
the Prophet Assam said, if it was allowed, I would burn the houses of those individuals who pray at home, you know, so these kinds of things are really important they make it has a knock on effect on us as individuals on our families and on the wider Oma. Yeah, for sure. For sure. I echo that, and it's, I think, you know, when we have, we have a course called No doubt 10 effective strategies on how to do your doubts and the doubts of others. And one key strategy is actually doing what you've just said, you know, this is a matter of the caliber of the heart. And you know, sometimes we abstract the article we make it abstracted away from the call but you know, the, the majority of the
elements of the article is a function of the color and the color and sittin which is shabiha, what destructive doubts and blaming the desires, and it has diseases as well like gibberellic acid, you know, jealousy and arrogance, and so on and so forth. So we have to make sure the heart is is as as sound as possible, right as Allah says, You're not going to be safe from the day of judgment as you have, you know, policemen Salim. And the way to achieve that is to what is to do your tahajud you have God in the morning in the evening. And for me, I think the number one important thing just to make things very simple and I spoke to a chef a couple of days ago, is just to have good companions
have elderly people who are older than you more experienced, practicing connected to Allah because it's gonna rub off on you. You are the product of the people around you. So that that is so sick and
If you can to have people around you, especially in our cities to do to do to, to do out to people who are engaged, because many of them, they don't see anyone above them, right. Sometimes they think I got a big platform, it's all about me. Right? Yeah. You know, it's so important to have people around you who can give you advice for more experience, they are connected to Allah, and it will rub off on you. You know, I usually joke about the story in chapter 18, of the crown about, you know, the dog, you know, what, as Allah mentioned, the dog, even cathedra, you know, even questions to a certain degree, why is the dog mentioned? And he provides an answer, that the dog happened to be
with the people who have saved in the old place in the case. And so if Allah can save a dog, because he happens to be be with pious people, imagine what Allah will do to your life, if you happen to be the pious people, if Allah could say, oh, he can save you, right? If you have good people around you, so, so significant to have good people around you, like, you know,
you're right, a link that I'd like to add to that. So of course, what we know, like I work in substance use, what we know is that the friendship group effect affects the individual. So there's many studies that have looked at why do young people start using drugs, and one of the most significant reasons is peer pressure. So what you know, people start using because their friends are using drugs, and they want to feel validated. And this is also goes back to Brain neuroscience. So the brain develops in adolescence is a high risk period, the prefrontal cortex, which is responsible for things like executive functioning, making wise decisions, it kind of likes in adolescence, it
kind of continues to mature until the age of around 25. So young people are much more likely to engage in reckless and impulsive behavior. And they have this dopamine kind of flooding into the, into the reward circuits of the brain, like the limbic system, which means that they will give preference to what their friends feel and, and they want validation from their friends and peers. And this is very risky. SubhanAllah. Again, this shows to me, I reflect on this, that Islam is true, because so many are Hadith about the importance of your ASABE about your companions. You know, the famous one about the prophets or Salah mentioned that your friend, you're on the dean of your
friends, right. And he mentioned that if you go into a blacksmith, the guy working with metal, you'll come out kind of dark with soaked and covered in darkness, even though you didn't do anything. And this is the parable of evil friends, you know, you might not want to do something evil, but just spending time with that companionship, it rubs off on you. And the opposite is true. He mentioned that if an individual goes into a shop selling old, he will come out smelling beautiful and nice, even though he didn't purchase anything. And that's the example of good friends Subhan Allah. So you know, that is clear link between the Prophetic narration and what current science in
2023 tells us about why young people are using substances and we can we can extrapolate that to other mental disorders as well.
So my my final question is and by the way, is gone quite fast. It's almost been an hour and I need you back on again. At this we need to we need to promote your work. And by the way before I give the last question
what's your YouTube channel was it called What's how do you how do people find you?
Yeah, so I have a YouTube channel it's basically.dr Abu Issa.
And so people if you can just I'll share it with you. Maybe you can share on your Yeah, I'm gonna put it in the description below brothers and sisters, but I'll also try and put it here as well. So what you're at so what what would what would the atmospheric? Good question. Let me check.
I'm relatively new Arch Dr. Abu Issa. 6251625. So Dr. Abu E, sir. So if I share this here now.
Let me see. Is that correct?
Correct. Yeah. Perfect. So brothers and sisters, please subscribe to the YouTube channel, promote it far and wide. I find it
absurd, literally absurd, and even maybe a sign of a diminishing Baraka in the dour. That brothers, you should have a million subscribers do not have a million subscribers. I'm being very honest with you. I'm not saying the ones that have a lot of subscribers. They don't deserve it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying there are so many other brothers with expertise and skill and articulation and good o'clock and up and they don't have the followers that they should have. And that's not because of them. I think it's because of our collective malaise. So please, please brothers and sisters. Please share doctor about ACEs YOUTUBE CHANNEL Subscribe.
ripe, and you know, connect with him and ask him questions and say, Look, I want a video on this, I want a video on this issue or that issue. So please, please, please engage with our experts. Allah has blessed the OMA with care in the oh my goodness in the community, we need to find that goodness. Right. So, final question is, is basically the role of spirituality and I don't mean this in a kind of, you know, Neo spiritual postmodern sense. I mean, as a, you know, you know,
Bodia, serve servanthood to Allah subhanaw taala being connected to Allah, what is the role of that in mental health? And what kind of the, you know, I don't want to use you know, an Andrew Huberman type of, you know, app would ask you about the protocols, right? What kind of spiritual protocols must we have in place with regards to you know, protecting ourselves from any, you know, mental disease or negative mental health?
Excellent question, just so before I answer that, just to mention that I only started being active on social media about a year ago. And the reason I did that is because I knew I kind of saw that people are suffering through contact from individuals who needed some form. And I thought that having
a platform online, people will be able to you know, access Muslim psychiatrist, because like I mentioned earlier, unfortunately, a lot of medical professionals in mental health and the wider medical fields, Muslims are not practicing, and many of them are secular. So that kind of information where you somebody integrates Islamic paradigm with with Western psychiatry, I thought was really important for people to know about. So I've done videos, I think you've seen some on like, you know, psychosis, depression, anxiety, substance use, etc. So there's o'clock here for for promoting that and I'm happy to like be invited, have a discussion offline as well. Anybody needs
support, Inshallah, for the sake of Allah, anybody can get in touch and we can Inshallah, I can try my best to help you
know, just out of effort to answer your question. Prevention is better than cure, okay, as Muslims for us, the preventive interventions of what the Quran and the prophets of Salaam has taught us. So he's like you mentioned, of course, of course, Messiah, being regularly with your Salah, before going to sleep making Budo sleep disturbance is such an issue Subhanallah some people who are Muslims who I treat, I always recommend to them first and foremost, make wudu before you sleep, pray to raka before you sleep, you know, do your Morehead attain, read ITIL kursi these kinds of things provide you with a protection from the unseen forces, but also give you a psychological benefit in
you know, your neuro chemicals and neurotransmitters. So these kinds of things are very important. When you leave the house all of the earth card, we should be regulating our thought these are, these are protective and preventive measures. And it's really important, just and to add to that, I think maybe on another podcast, we can talk specifically about like psychosis and Gen possession, because this is something that I found people are really interested in.
So broadly speaking, I would divide those groups and this is not something that's been published, what's my anecdotal experience, I would divide people into three groups. Okay, so one group of people, individuals have purely a mental illness, mental disorder, and they don't have any issue with gin or setter. And then on the other side, we have a group of people that have no mental health issue. And it's definitely an issue with gin possession, or sir. And I can talk about cases that I've been involved in where, honestly, it's like amazing SubhanAllah. And then the vast majority are in the middle they have. So what happens is, if you have a mental disorder, you're more likely to be
attacked by the jinn and the unseen Subhanallah because you're vulnerable. And if you have an issue with Jin possession or magic, you're also more vulnerable to developing mental illnesses. So that those are broadly speaking, the three categories I would
discuss in terms of cases that I've seen.
So that's the way we protect ourselves like I mentioned, you know, the Islamic spiritual interventions, and then after that, seek expert opinion, and you may require psychological therapy and medication as well.
So in a nutshell is basically I know people might might think this is a kind of outdated slogan or spiritual cliche, but it's not it's the truth. We have to go back to the Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam see the Sunnah holistically understand the lifestyle of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wasallam it comes
To the way he worshipped the way he ate, and the way he spoke, and the things that he didn't say, right, all of these things are so important. And when we internalize them and adopt them over time is just going to uplift and optimize our lives inshallah Yeah, they are the only are they I think I would say is yes, Islamic. We are Muslims first. So Islam is important, but we also we should also not be afraid to seek expertise for mental health professionals, because like I mentioned, you know, the brother who was half of Quran, mashallah, who come to me for for support, I think people may get the wrong message. So I just want to be very clear, yes, paradigm is very important. But please, and
this is what why I advocate for mental well being, it's really crucial that people if you're suffering, please talk to somebody that you trust a family member, and try and find, I would recommend a Muslim psychiatrist or psychotherapist or psychologist, because we have skills and expertise, which will inshallah be helpful and beneficial. And we also are able to ascertain the degree of severity of illness that you may or may not have, and what kind of treatments you need. So, you know, I want to be very clear that, you know,
yeah, and I would argue, not just seek a Muslim psychiatrist, by practicing Muslim psychiatrist, this is important, because sometimes, and you know, I spoke to a chef about this, and you have these self help gurus and these counselors, it says, Muslim, Muslim, but it's actually, you know, they adopt maybe metaphysical assumptions, epistemological assumptions, psychological assumptions that are against the Islamic tradition, and they just sprinkle a few IR two verses or a hadith, prophetic traditions, you know, just to try and justify, but it from the ground up, it hasn't been built through the tradition of hasn't connected in a profound way. So it's important for the person to be
practicing. And I and I agree with you know, the process, I think it's a hadith in Sahih Muslim, where the prophet is one was asked a question about cohabitation with your wife if the suckling right. And the first one, I think he looked into those, the Romans or the Persians, and he said, you know, it didn't harm them. So he allowed the Sahaba the companions to cohabit with the wives while they're suckling their children. This, for me is a beautiful prophetic tradition, because it teaches us when it comes to medicine, when it comes to science, when it comes to these things, you know, you go to the experts, and you go, you could go to other civilizations, if you like, or other, you know,
communities because Islam is about ensuring that you have good mental well being right. Yeah, I'll give you an example just to kind of finish. So in the UK, in the UK, you know, if somebody dies, without a known cause, they usually have to undergo a post mortem. From an Islamic from a fake perspective, it's not permissible for the human for the Muslim body to be, you know, dissected And subhanAllah Hamza, you will be surprised, there is a Jewish professor, okay. He created a mechanism using an MRI scanner to conduct post mortems because obviously, the the Jews also follow our tradition in that the body should be a sacred after death. So Subhanallah now Jews go to this Jewish
professor after death, and the government has approved him to conduct MRI post mortems where the Muslim community whereas the Muslim community, you know,
what, what you're saying is so true that we need to benefit from others because at the end of the day, they may be potentially Muslims as well, future Muslims, some of the best Muslims in history. Were non Muslim before mashallah, look at yourself, you are better than most poor? I wouldn't say that in any shape or form.
No, honestly, honestly, you know, like people like Muhammad, Tim, I, you know, we shouldn't overpraise people, but we should give credit where credit is due, you know, people who are born Muslim are leaving Islam and the ones who are not born Muslim entering Islam, and they are usually better and because they've made an effort, you know, I mean, I met Tim humbled just once in debate in Ramadan in an Iftar. And I, from what I interacted with him, I definitely believe that he is a personal, personal person if I've missed out my wife now, he personifies his name, basically. Yeah, it's because he came across as extremely loving and extremely humble, and I preserve him and my love
preserve us. And we've just past the hour is been a fantastic conversation. I would even argue probably the best conversation I've had so far on this channel.
Bless you, and listen, I want you back for more because I want us to go deep on certain topics as well. Especially the area of the spirit world in the gym. That is so fascinating.
It's something that I don't have any expertise on, but you hear so many different stories and so many different opinions. What is the correct approach? What is the Quran and Sunnah say, what is your middle medical and psychological expertise on this that I think is going to get people going? So just to finish? Yeah, sorry. To interrupt the problem I've actually written I've actually drafted an essay where I talk about how we distinguish between because usually psychosis how we distinguish between a psychotic illness and gin possession, okay, well and this is this is an essay which are written, the audience is non Muslim. So because you know, I want non Muslims to have an appreciation
of the cultural and religious perspective of Muslims. And even if you look at the diagnostic classification system, there's something called di D dissociative identity disorder. So even the psychiatrists mental health professionals there they recognize that many cultures like South America like the Muslims, even Christians, they believe in exorcism so they recognize that this is a separate category, which should should not necessarily be defined as a mental disorder because it's within the cultural and religious understanding and background of a very interesting Wow sounds like you've been pioneering stuff may Allah bless you, Doctor preserve you and inshallah we're gonna have
this another conversation very soon. So luckily for coming on board salam ala Cramo to live with a cat like masala ama