Abdur Rahman ibn Yusuf Mangera – 4 5 Pray as You Have Seen Me Pray
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AI: Transcript ©
Bismillah AR Rahman and Rahim in this session, we're going to
quickly cover the differences if there are any between the male and
the female prayer.
There's an opinion out there, that men and women's prayer should be
the absolute same. And the reasoning that's provided is that
the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam said, Sundew Kamara at
Moonee. Valley. Pray, like you've seen me pray. So they what they
say is that, just like with every other hukum every other order of
the road Salallahu Salam, O Allah subhanho wa Taala makes in the
Quran because it applies to both male and females. Likewise, this
one should also apply to both.
Pray as you've seen me pray. Now,
if there were no a hadith, if there were no Hadith about how a
woman should pray,
then we could say that this is a valid approach, because the only
thing that is telling us how to pray is this hadith, which is
saying, pray like you've seen me pray. And since the person also
never singled out women, the Sahaba never did so as well. That
means that
it must apply both to men and women. But there are many other
rulings in which things apply differently to male and females.
Even though the Prophet sallallahu sallam said, Whatever he said, but
then there are other narrations that show otherwise were the wives
of Rasulullah. Salah, some did otherwise we explained otherwise.
In this case, as well.
It's a misunderstanding
to say that this is the only narration pray as you've seen me
pray that applies to both. Because there are narrations, yes, some of
them are weak. But as I mentioned before,
you'd rather take a weak narration than take the universal
application of one narration, which is not clear about whether
he applies to men and women.
That's where the fundamental difference lies.
Because I can't recall any single Hadith in which it says men and
women must pray the same in every aspect.
Yes, if there was a hadith like that, then obviously you'd have to
compare it to the Hadith which said it was different. But there
are a hadith would say that they're different in some aspects,
but I don't know of any Hadith which says that they should be the
same in every aspect. Where they're proving it from is just
the general command, which says, Pray like you've seen me pray. But
just like in many other commands, he was talking to the men because
the men were in front of him.
Right. So like, I'll give you an example.
Firstly, these are the durations that we have. Why it is not her
job. The famous narrator of many solid positions, right? He says
that I came to us will allah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam and he
said to me YAHWAH if not a while.
He does so later. Fajr Alia day you go have one acre.
When you pray,
put your hands in parallel to your ears. While Mara to touch your
Alou. Yeah, they have a third Yeah, yeah. And women, they should
put their hands parallel to the chest.
That's as clear as you can get.
Right? That's as clear as you can get. But now you've got I mean,
men who start from there.
Right?
It's saying women should do that and the men should go up. Okay,
there are other verses. There are other generations for men that say
that it was up to you know, shoulder level, right, no doubt
about that. But in this hadith, which is related by Imam Toblerone
in his alma mater, Jamal Kabir, and it's related by a you know, a
suit is also mentioned in the German Hadith and so on. It's very
clear that when you pray, put your hands up to your ears and when
women pray they should just up to their chest. And there's not just
one Hadith. There's another one from what a diviner from yours
even know Habib
that Rasul Allah salAllahu Alaihe Salam passed by two women who were
praying.
He passed by two women who were praying
and maybe they were making such the frustration like men.
Okay, he said to them, it was such a tumor for them about the Lummi
ill ordered for in the Morata lacet V Valley caca ritual that is
really important. This hadith is related by Imam Abu Dawood in his
Murase. Right, it's a morsel narration, which means that Tabby
is relating it from Allah and Allah some directly, but you don't
relate something like this. You don't make up something like this.
It must have been something that they observed, and he's relating
from Allah salAllahu Salam. So when you don't have a more full
narration, which means when you don't have a narration that is
related from a Sahabi
Clearly then you take the next best thing. So in this one you
need to know how to say that rasool Allah Allah has been passed
by two women who are praying he said when you make your search
then
he said press some part of your flesh to the earth, which means go
down further because the way men's prostration is as related by
berhadiah Muslim when the profit and loss of used to make such that
he used to keep his finger his hands his so wide that a little
goats kid could pass through it. That's for men, but for women is
telling them you don't do that you press your body together because a
woman is not like a man in this regard. That's the important part
here.
So when you've got a narration like this, even though it's a
morsel narration is better than just going by the general
implication of a another narration
it's almost like they've decided we want them to pray the same so
we're going to use that narration. Man look at it holistically you've
got these narrations Why don't you take them what's wrong with you?
Another narration is from outside and God Allah one, that the
Prophet salallahu it he stayed with us, allah sallallahu alayhi
wa sallam. He This is related from him from the sahabi that he used
to order the men that they keep a part in their sister in their
frustration so they keep everything apart not be altogether
and
he would order the women that they contract together.
And he would tell the men that they should lay lay their left
foot and sit on it and erect their right foot in sitting and he would
talk way up moron Nisa yet, Rob Berna and he will tell the women
to spread out in their city as they do didn't tell you exactly
how but it was definitely not like a man.
You got Sahabi doing this.
This one is related by him and by her penis Sunon and Cobra. Another
one is related by ignore it in his Garmin and biohacking is Sunon l
Cobra as well. Abdullah ometer the alone says sudo allah sallallahu
alayhi wa sallam said either jealous or filmora trophy salotti
when a woman sits in a prayer water at fajita ha Allah Fahey her
Elora she should place one
thigh over the other thigh.
The only way you could do that is if your legs are to one side. If
your feet are to one side, then you can put one thigh on the other
otherwise they'd be tied together not on one another. So it's like
one is slightly raised above the other. When you make such the
sorry when she makes such that I'll support Buttner haffi for
Hibiya custody Maya kulula She will join her stomach to her
thighs to make it as conceding as possible. For in the LA young
through LA highway Ophelia Mala Kathy was he to come and Nico for
Tula because Allah subhanho wa Taala is watching her and he is
saying oh my Mala Iike are my angels. I get make you witness
that I have forgiven, I have forgiven her.
So
you've got these narrations. Now based on this all the four schools
including Imam Imam, no humble, ignore Kodama al Makdessi. And all
of these great scholars that even people who, you know, don't like
to follow this Revere, they've all agreed on this. And I could
present to you right now, we don't have the time. But literally 3040
quotes from each of the math hubs, I can provide you about 10 to 20
quotes from the Maliki school, from the humbly school from the
Hanafi school and the Shafi school that this is exactly the way that
they've mentioned that the women should pray.
What's in the recent past in the last 2030 years, this is when
these new opinions come that men and women and if you see online,
you'll see that there is no difference between a male and
females pray as the jurists have mentioned. So they're negating
what all of the jurists have said, and their delille is the one
Hadith which is ambiguous as general pray as you've seen me,
right? Where did he say in there that I'm meeting men and women,
when you've got all of these durations? And the Sahaba doing
that and the prophets Allah Himself is reported? Yes, some of
these narrations a week but when you don't have any clear narration
about them being exactly the same, then why don't you take these
narrations
when you sometimes wonder you can't see wisdom behind it
sometimes Yeah, you can see okay, you've got to say clear narration
okay, we can understand why you so particular about that one, but in
this one I just don't see the reason why they're so why do they
want women to lift up their bottoms in salah they don't
understand.
Sorry to put it that way.
Number another narration.
You know, you've got then you've got another group of modernists,
who want to lead the men in prayer.
Right and we
They go up there they've got no hijab on properly as well. Right
they're just in some weird clothing and they you know harm
showing and next to men I don't know what kind of salad that is,
right? But there's a hadith that's related by Imam Bay hockey. I show
the Allah one has said Rasulullah sallallahu sallam said
a mature woman's prayer is not accepted except with a headscarf.
You know, covered properly, not with a headscarf that's just up
there someplace pinned at the back or something like a wedding like a
bride. Right?
Or, you know, the Allahu Anhu relates
sorry, that that actually the Allah one has narration is in
Timothy about the scuff, Bay hockey, it's related from Allah,
the Allah one either Sajida till Mara falta de Masaki, they have
that when a woman does such that then her
thigh should be together.
If not above the Allahu Anhu narrates in muslin Masana funeral
be shaver, that
he was asked about how a woman should pray, he said that she
were deaf is she should contract together. And she should put
herself closer together, contract herself together. So now now you
understand from the narration about one thigh over the other,
you understand that the legs must be on the side for that to happen.
So the way I've been told, I mean, I, you know, I can't show you how
to do it. But what I've been told of how women should pray is that
the legs should be it's on the left side, right? On the right
hand side, well, which side are the legs on on the right hand
side, and the two and under the feet should be facing the Qibla.
So although the feet, the legs are towards the right hand side, the
feet are
put towards the Qibla. Right. Now, a few other points. Before we stop
right now, firstly,
although we've covered most of the prayer, and the basic points about
it, these are some of the other things about confusions. For
example, I alluded to this earlier about whether the feed should be
joined together or not. There's some people who insist on it. Some
Imams will actually stand and make sure that it's it happens, you
know, you, you will find somebody next to you, they'll say that if
you don't join your feed brother, there's going to be shaytaan will
come in between. But my question is, where do you get that from?
Right? But essentially, there is no Hadith about that. Yes, there
is Hadith, the Prophet sallallahu sallam, he said has do banal
monarchy,
level your shoulders together. And what we're seeing with this
problem of the feet, is that the feet become the main objective and
the shoulders are no longer together. Because normally, people
who are insisting on this, their feet are going to be further apart
than their shoulders. So they don't care about the shoulders
joining together, which is more important. Their feet are
together.
Right? And that's what it is. Look, there is nothing wrong with
putting your feet together if you want to do that.
But don't insist on somebody who doesn't want to do it.
And the reasons of that are many. Now, there's a hadith that is
related. We don't have time to go into all of the narrations. If
you're here, you should have got this Book, the faculty member
you'll find much of the detailed evidence is in there later on when
you read it in sha Allah. But just to go over a few of these points.
The famous Hadith that is quoted about joining the feet together as
this
will cost him will generally report it's a hadith of sunnah be
doubt I will customer generally reports. I heard not many of new
Bashir, who was a Sahabi I heard him relate that Rasulullah
sallallahu alayhi wa sallam once faced the people and he said,
straight in euros, by Allah you should straighten euros or
otherwise Allah will create disagreement between your hearts.
So make sure you're also straight Otherwise Allah will cause
disagreement between your hearts. That's page 48.
Right? So this is what Rasul Allah Now imagine this that Rasul Allah
salah, some before starting the prayer, he turned around, and he
said, straighten your rolls, Otherwise Allah will cause discord
between your hearts. Now keep a few things in mind. We have
carpets nowadays that have these markings on them that tell you
exactly where to stand. We still get it wrong. Right? But it tells
you exactly where to stand. Now in those days, there was no carpet
like that. It was it was it was sand or stone or whatever it was.
And you literally had to make euros. So you literally had to
look around that's why it's related about Amara, the Allah
Juan used to go and he used to straight in every row then gone. I
mean, you don't see your mom's even looking behind nowadays.
Right? You know, emails, they just stand there. The person is being
attacked. We just expect everybody to do that. Right everybody to
just straighten him out. He they don't look around. They don't they
don't they don't care what's going well, they do care but they don't
look around. They think it's bad.
is taboo because people are gonna say what is him? I'm looking at
traditional people SubhanAllah. Right? It's the Imams
responsibility to straighten the rows.
So the prophets Allah some did exactly that. Now not mine Hypno
Bashir he is now listen carefully, he is relating what the Sahaba
did. Now look at this very carefully, he said, I saw each
person join his shoulder with those of the next person and his
knees and ankles with those of the next person.
This is not the version that's quoted by people who insist on
this because it has knees in there and they never will join the
knees. Because that's difficult. Right? There's about a number of
versions of this generation some say knee some say knees and others
do not say the knees.
Okay.
What not mine if no Bashir is saying is that this is what I saw
people doing. When did he see people doing this?
In the salad,
before the salad, when did he seem to it?
Was before the salad. Right?
What proof is there
that this happened in the salad as well. There is no Hadees to show
that this happened in the salon, like something like, you know,
when I went into ruku, my feet went away. So when I stood up, I
joined it again, there is absolutely nothing in that regard.
This hadith just tells you that they did this to straighten the
rose, whether they did it again whether they carried on doing it,
it's silence. So how can you take this Hadees to insist that
everybody do that. And then to make up the story that shaitan
will come in between because of this?
Yes, if you're if you're in first class shaytan will come in between
that's another problem. We do have, you know, the extreme that
people who don't join their feet, what they do is then they just
relaxed I remember last two weeks ago, in Joomla I see this guy,
there was enough space to put two people in there. And he's got no
idea that he should move up to his left towards the Imam side and get
somebody else you know, he's trying to he's kind of spreading
out to fill the gap. I tapped him I said, move up, get somebody else
in here. Why you first class.
You know, I'm saying everybody wants to sit in first class with a
big armchair next to him, you know, lots of space and that's
wrong.
And you know, women that don't normally go to the mercy when they
go to the masjid, they they really in first class, my wife told me,
they don't even want to sit on the same row as though they didn't
want to sit wherever they on. They don't even sit in rows. Sometimes.
I'm not saying that all women do that. But this is what she said
she went to one masjid. And literally this the ones here ones
there ones here ones they're like, they just don't know what's going
to offer in the Imam.
That's not everywhere. You know, women one used to go into it, they
they obviously know what to do. But some women, they just don't
know what to do. But this is a problem in almost it, maybe the
first row is fine. But the second and third row, people just start
relaxing. And literally you could come in late and put a few people
side and get in and you know, join join the prayer. So you got two
extremes on this. You got some people who care a lot about
joining the feet up to join the feet and you've got others that
don't care at all. Right? So it needs to be a balance between the
two. So now, firstly, let's look at this.
Number one,
who's the one who's saying that the feet were joined together? The
Prophet sallallaahu Salam? Did he tell him to do this? Or was it the
sahaba? Who said we did this?
It was the sahabi. Who said this is what we did. The Prophet
doesn't didn't tell us what he just said straight in euros. So
they did this to straighten the arrows, number one, number two.
It's explaining what they did in the beginning. There's no proof
that they did it later on as well. In the solid itself. Number three,
if it was necessary to do this, what about inside the prayer? How
would you do it in such though? How would you do it in roku?
How would you do it?
Where does it prove that you only do it when standing
once you're straight in your in your growth and that's it, you
you're there.
Number four
why don't they join the knees as well. As mentioned in this
narration from Abu Dhabi out
why only the feet Why not the why not the knees? Why not the
shoulders, in fact, people who are spreading their legs all the time
in solid. You'll see that even when they make sunnah separately
or they're praying alone. They'll still spread their feet as though
spreading the feet is a virtuous thing to do. Nowhere does it say
that.
But it's not wrong to do it. Because there is no particular way
of standing that's legislated that you must stand like this or like
this. You stand as comfortably and reasonably that you can
Yes, there's one narration where Abdullah was one of them. So
somebody praying with his two feet together.
And he said that had he done Morava
Which means have them separately in a particular way that would
have been better for him. So yes, standing together is a bit awkward
anyway, you could fall down because you're not stable like
that. But having them however you want is fine. Main thing is join
your shoulder to the next person's because that's what the books are
when he said, he said has been on monarchy level between your
shoulders. And this thing about feet together is not related from
Rasulullah sallallahu Sallam it was related from the sahabi.
And if I remember correctly, this hobby was very young when he
related this as well when he when he saw this that's why it's
related by Abner Hydra last Kalani from Anasazi Allah one that if I
were to attempt this meaning joining the shoulders and feet
together with anybody today, meaning if I was to like make sure
I do that they would scurry away like restive mules.
It just shows that it was not a permanent action.
But some people have seen this hadith and they've started
insisting on it. But again, just to put it all in perspective,
there's nothing wrong with doing it if you want to do it, but just
don't insist on other people doing it.
You know, to fight with somebody for it, make a big deal about it.
You know, it's just not worth it.
Another one, where to put the hands in prayer. And I've already
given you evidence from it, or the Allah and others, but let's just
look at the one about the chest, and the one beneath the chest and
beneath the navel. Firstly, to make it very clear,
there is no sahih Hadith that is non problematic. That tells you
exactly where to put the hands in prayer.
So you won't find a single Hadith that is free of any kind of
criticism or defect that tells you put it here or here or here.
You've got numerous Hadith, some say put it on your chest, some say
put it beneath your chest, and some say put it beneath you
beneath your navel.
So essentially, we've got a situation here where all the
narrations are problematic. So which one are you supposed to
take? Do you see what we're saying? That's the issue here.
So some scholars have taken the one on the chest and say that that
is the strongest version that they find among the three. Others say
it's the one below the navel, and others say it's the one on the
what do you call it below that below the chest above the navel.
But to put it in perspective, if you put your hand on your chest,
there's nothing wrong with it. For a man to do that or above the
chest. This is a this is not a permission permissible
impermissible difference of opinion. This is a difference of
opinion on what is better to do based on what's the strongest
Hadith. Now, very briefly, I mean, you can read this, this is on the
position of the hands.
The the the one Hadith that is really problematic. And when when
I say problematic, you're probably wondering, well, how do you get a
hadith that's problematic, right, because the promises are some
obvious he said one thing he was very clear, but it becomes
problematic because the fourth generation or the fifth generation
narrator who narrates it, one is saying this, he's saying this, and
he says which one is right.
He's saying I heard from so and so that was like this. In another
one. He's saying I heard from so and so it was like this, which one
is correct? That's what the issue is all about.
So one of the famous narrations that the inconsistency is about is
what if no hedgerows narration. He said, I perform prayer with the
messenger of allah sallallahu sallam, he placed his right hand
upon the left one on his chest.
That is related in the safety of women who Zima so it's not a
Bukhari Muslim Hadith, right? It's a Hebrew Zaman.
In that one, what does he say? Where did he put the hands
on his chest?
There's another version of this narration from the same Sahabi in
Missoula del Bazar, he says near the chest instead of on the chest,
in the Saudi instead of other Saudi.
Then there's another version in Santa Fe Burnaby shaver
which says beneath the navel, the same Sahabi when you that's what
you call a problematic narration a turbulent look that up narration
because you've got the same Sahabi saying, or the same Narrator
saying three different things.
Now, the first two versions, they support the view of those who
claim it is more preferable to place the hands on the chest to
just below it. So you can see that the chef is have taken one
NARRATION The those who follow the chess schema don't know humble has
an opinion about the chest. They've taken the other opinion,
which is fine, no problem, but just don't insist everybody else
does the same thing. That's what I'm trying to say. You're gonna
put your hand on chess, please do. Right? Is a narration about it.
You want to put it beneath your chest no problem.
But just don't insist that you shove that down everybody else's
throat that's what the problem is. Okay, when you
We've got bigger things to, to deal with, right from outside of
the Muslim community than to bicker on these kinds of things,
which are issues of just preference. Now let's look at this
first version. It's related by YBNL Hoceima. Upon the chest, we
will say that this is the weakest of them all. From a hadith
perspective, it's the weakest of them all. That's why we haven't
taken that one. Why? Because when you go further down, in this
narration, more Amal IGNOU. Ismail is one of the narrators of this
version, and he's been called a weak narrator. So although it's
related by IGNOU Hoceima in his Saheeh from
what 11 a hedge of the narrator later on is Mohammed Ismail, who
was considered to be a weak narrator, ever since he began to
make mistakes in his narrations when his books became buried, and
He was subsequently forced to narrate from memory. Imam Buhari
states his narrations are rejected his uncle Hadith Allah mother
hubby says he makes many errors cathedral, Hatha abou Surah states
his narration is contained many errors. So why should we take that
narration? Now, this narration, although it's found in many other
books as well through other chains, so this is not the only
way I mean, we have to be fair that it's not just this way that
it's related. It's related in with other chains as well.
Their Mohammed revenue is mine relates it, it does not contain
the words on the chest in any other version. It only contains
this particular wording in Ignaz Amis version. All right.
versions of it are found in suna betta, with Sulan, NSI Ibnu merger
and the muscle of Abu Dhabi, the theodicy, or more popular books,
but none of them contained that edition on the chest. This is only
found in the version of Mohammed Ismail from IGNOU indiblogger.
Same as version a version. That's why it's, it's going to be
difficult to accept it. Number three
marmorino is mine he relates this Hadith from Sophia and authority.
Right? He relates this from Sofia and authority. And
if not agile Ashkelon, he mentions that the link between Sofia and
authority, and Mama Libnah is smart enough is a weak link. So
here from a hadith perspective, from a transmission perspective,
this is a weak narration. And I mean, I can go on, there's about
four or five different reasons, but you get the idea. Right, and
you can read it up if you really want the details there.
The one which is found in mazindol bizarre, which says near the
chest, that's once a week. Right? One of its narrators is Mohamed
Mahajan. Imam Buhari says his mat is unsettled. Even though the
heavy says some of his narrations are rejected.
So that's a weak narration as well. Then,
there's another another narration of Boston armored that is
proposed, put forward to prove the hand on the chest, which is said
that the Prophet sallallahu returned from his life, right, his
right and left side and it was placed his hand upon his chest.
However, a hadith scholar Allah Mani mui, whose book should be
published soon called afar soon, and by Torah publishing, he is
established with convincing evidence that there is an error in
the wording of this hadith, in the in place of the weather Allah,
heavy upon the other hand, it should have been the Prophet
sallallahu Sallam put his hand. On the other hand, the copy is the
one who wrote the book, he made a mistake. And he wrote, instead of
Allah heavy Allah Saudi, which means instead of saying upon this
hand, he wrote upon his chest, because you can't find this in any
other place in the same way. So through cross referencing, you
find that there's a problem here. So that's why you've got all of
these. I mean, I don't want to go into great detail here. But
that's, these are some of the reasons. Now.
The third version, which says below his navel, that's also weak
for what 11 origin. And the reason why it's weak is because
he mentions the other things in other places. So it's problematic
which one should we take
that one's problem and that one, and that this one could also be
problematic. That's why some Hanafi scholars have stated that
this version cannot be used as conclusive evidence for the Hanafi
position. Because the words below his navel are only found in some
editions of masala Fibonacci shaper, not in all the versions.
So there's a problem with that one as well. So we're just going to
leave those ahaadeeth behind, we're just going to leave them
alone.
What are we going to do? We're going to take other narrations
which we mentioned earlier, for example, from earlier the Allah
one, he says to place one poem over the other beneath the navel,
that is from among the Sunnah acts of prayer, which is related by be
happy and Muslim, the fibula be Shava and there is no doubt about
this narration Yes, it's a weak narration
But there's no problem with this narration. It's not turbulent,
it's not inconsistent. And you know, the Lord doesn't say one
thing, one place. And another thing in another place, he says
exactly that. That's why we think that is stronger. And we just
disregard all of the other narrations. And then we've got a
few other narrations like that as well. But again,
if somebody else comes with their own convincing evidence of why
they think the other one is fine, we're fine with you. That's
completely fine. We're not going to make a big deal out of it.
open hearted respect. That's essentially what we're quoting
here. And there's a number of other integrations here. So we'll
stop here for the moment.