© Transcript (Experimental)
Disclaimer: Transcripts are auto-generated and thus will be be inaccurate. We rely on volunters to edit. No part of this transcript may be copied or referenced or transmitted in any way whatsoever.
Hello, and welcome back now reports of racially and religiously motivated hate crimes hit a new high across England and Wales in 2020. Apparently, that's according to new home office data, which shows that racially and religiously aggravated offenses went up by 7%. Last year, some forces so much bigger rises with lesser lesser showplaces offenses going up the most by 82%, followed by a force in Wales, which had an increase of 49%. So Joining me to discuss this now is Abdullah, and Lucy from the Muslim debate initiative and the rapper and podcaster zubi. Good evening to you both. I've done that. Let me start by you. We're talking now about the rise in these hate crimes. Does that concern
Well, course it should concern all of us. It should concern anyone who has a desire to see
the country that we live in, where people are tolerant of each other's differences of opinion of each other's different ethnicities, different backgrounds and languages. So it should, it's a strong concern for all of us to see this ongoing rise, especially concerning we've had decades now of, you know, anti racist policies that were meant to be tackling this, but I think we have been asked the question, what is really the cause of this, and I think if you look at towards the current government, as is controlled by the Conservative Party, we see that there's not really that they don't really take it as concerning as anyone as everyone else should be, to deal with these, these
kind of policies to deal with this, this rise of, of racism, Rise of Islamophobia, Rise of general ethnic tensions or xenophobia that we've seen in in England. And so what we need to see from them is a recommitment to anti racist and anti anti bigotry policies to kind of quell these, these these kind of rising and concerning statistics. So I've done as explained there that everybody should be really concerned about the rise in the statistics, are you really concerned about them?
For me to have a proper opinion on this, I would need to delve into the data a little bit more. I think, first of all, we're talking about specifically a 7% rise in reported incidents, right, that doesn't equate to a 7% rise of incidents themselves. So I think we actually need to parse this out. I think it's a lot more nuanced than what any headline may say. Now, if it's parsed out, and it turns out that yes, there has been a rise in actual incidents and offenses, then, of course, that's a cause for concern. If any, you know, I think we all agree regardless of any sort of political orientation, etc, that people should not be harmed, discriminated against, you know, treated in any
prejudice manner based on their race, their gender, sexuality, ethnicity, religion, etc. We all agree with that. But with statistics and data like this, it's very easy to paint whatever picture you want. For example, when we say a hate offense, what does that actually? What does that mean? I don't know what the proper definition of that mean, does that mean?
I do know what, yeah, I didn't know what it means. And after that, so you say that you've got a real concern that everyone should be really concerned about the rise in these statistics. I'm not overly concerned about the rise in the statistics, I absolutely am against genuine examples of hatred and discrimination, etc. But the rise in these figures reported today, they don't concern me so much. And I'll tell you for why, because here I have the CPS definition of what a hate crime actually is. It says it's a criminal offense, which is and this is the bit that gets me perceived by the victim or any other person to be motivated by hostility, of course, around those protected characteristics.
However, it then goes on to say, There is, however, no legal definition of hostility. So we use the everyday understanding of the word, which includes things like unfriendly nerves. So I've done a when I read that, and I understand that and that the actual definition is an offense which is simply perceived by anyone to be motivated by potentially unfriendly notes. I have a concern about that.
Well, I think we're looking at these statistics from the perspective of a report by the Wagner police agencies and they have certain criteria as to how to establish the motivation of hatred and in English law is long established, that offense can must be established by what a reasonable person would consider to be deliberate willful hatred, not just general unfriendliness. So if you have to go beyond just genuine friendliness, because for him to actually show up on the internet, because the internet is predominated by in many cases have genuine friendliness, so it does go a bit beyond that.
Now I do agree that the kind of the the rise since reported is only quite small. But this represents a general rise we see from other measures, for example, victim support, which was an organization that monitors and looks at hate crimes did notice that the average is an average increase of 73%. In race and nationality, hate crimes for the average week in 2021, is measured in about January, March, compared to the same time last year. So there's a 73% rise in in kind of reported hate crimes and also other types of discriminations and in bigotry. So it's not just this one statistic that we're looking at, there's actually quite a few but this one system is this reason cystic is reported by
from police agencies. And so we have to take that seriously. And of course, any rise should be taken seriously, because what we'd hope to see is a is a general decrease over time. And if that decrease isn't happening, we have to ask why. And we have to ask, what's the environment that's
after I can tell you why? Because what's happening at the moment, I'll give you an example. The police are focusing monumentally on this. So for example, the Nottingham Shire police had a day of action, all around hate crimes, urging people to report them, they are proactively going out and encouraging people to lock what they perceive to be hate. Now, when you have that proactive encouragement of people, and you're telling them record what you think, may have been helpful, then there is no way that those statistics are going to go on the decline. What's your view on that to me?
Yeah, I mean, as someone who's got a large following online, and who's an active user of Twitter and other social media, I could have reported probably at least 300 plus hate crimes against myself in 2020. If I had chosen to write if if we're talking in terms of hate crimes and hate incidents, if that includes online stuff, if that includes nasty emails, if that includes racial, racist, DMS, etc, then I could have logged 300 plus of those, right, probably 500 Plus, I love I love zero, right. But depending on how people choose to report these things, it's so hard to get an accurate number. Now, I totally agree that if you are seeing a rise of you know, 1%, or 10%, or 70%,
absolutely, then it means that it's worth looking more into the issue. But I think until you've looked more into it, and actually parsed this data out and really seen what's going on, I think it could be a massive red herring, right? We see this a lot with data, it's very easy to lie and to manipulate data, you can change the boundaries, you can redefine terms, you can base things off of reports, rather than actual incidents of these incidents, how many? Was it proven that there was actually a crime because right now we're talking about the 7% rise in reports, we're not talking about a 7% rise in Christ necessarily, but it's worth looking at in more detail and really getting
to the bottom of it. But I think having seen a lot of these situations before in various ways, I know not to jump to massive conclusions on these things. And to let emotion take over, I think it's better to look at the data and really, really see what's going on, I haven't had a chance to do that. But I think it's a sign that you need to look at it. And then you can see if there's a real issue, and then you can see, okay, what's the best way to deal with this? That's my personal perspective. Yeah, I respond to that, in terms of what happens with these figures, the home office days, we're actually sure that in 2020, almost 30% of cases will close without a suspect being
identified. And I'm sorry, I guess my concern in all of this is I you know, racism, discrimination, etc, has absolutely no place in our society, everybody should be able to live their lives, free from hatred, abuse, and attacks. And I want anyone that is genuinely discriminating against people being racist, I want those people to be dealt with and prosecuted. And for those issues to be taken seriously. My concern with this is that sometimes I feel that, you know, desperately encouraging people to report anything and everything undermine this, perhaps the true crimes that have been committed in this area, and those things that really genuinely do need police resource to stop those
When I wouldn't think so. I mean, we have automated systems of reporting, thanks to modern technology. And so I think that we should raise issue when there is issue. All of us should, should report when deemed necessary, at least to give the wider society the sense of the gravity of what's happening, the fact that the true nature, the true amount of
You know, hate based kind of abuse that we see online is actually not reported by this is just the tip of the iceberg. And so this is why it needs to be drawn attention to. And and while I applaud measures by
some of the police to make people aware of the gravity of hate based crimes, as we say, we also have to look at the origins and causes of this. And when we have a conservative party, who in the past has said the Prime Minister has said, David Cameron, prior to the Boris Johnson has said that it was a worry for him that if there were some certain Muslims, for example, had an allegiance to a greater than than the nation state that implying they could they really be trusted. And we see obviously Boris Johnson's comments about women and letterboxes, we shouldn't be surprised to see that, in essence, the people many of the people are seeing the government give them a green light to express
their hatred because if the government can spread hatred like this, or or kind of imply it, in many cases, then they think to themselves well, why can't we then that it's okay for the government's okay for us. So we have to look at the causes of why xenophobia is becoming increasingly more acceptable to express online and how better we can address it. And at least we can all agree that people simply reporting into an automated form that the hatred received is at least a vital necessary first step to at least your wider society, the true gravity of the amount of hate based abuse that has been flung against people on the basis of characteristics such as their beliefs, or
their ethnicity, things which we should not accept at all in a civilized society. Hello, I'll deluzy and zubi thank you both very much for your time. I want to know your views. Do you think that actually, I hate crime you