Yasir Qadhi – Gender Roles, Apostasy and Modern Issues

Yasir Qadhi
AI: Summary © The speakers emphasize the importance of understanding Sharia principles and maxims in modern times, as well as preserving Islam's values and leeway provided by the Sharia. They stress the need for a more thorough approach to implementation, considering the duration of marriage, and men's property and emotions. The speakers also emphasize the importance of segregation between men and women in court proceedings, citing the need for men to consider their financial situation and emotions, prioritizing their roles, and a more balanced approach to women's roles and issues.
AI: Transcript ©
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With, our Sheikh, our mentor,

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Sheikh,

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Hatemal Hajj. And, we had already had a

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past one about a very sensitive topic. Today,

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we will continue, insha'Allah, with other

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sensitive topics that are, insha'Allah, of practical value

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to the Muslim community. So welcome, Sheikh, to

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our second podcast.

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Today, inshaAllah, we wanted to talk a little

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bit about

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the issue of the application

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of fiqh in modern times

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and the fact that sometimes

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what we find as the ideal position

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is not

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one that is the most conducive to the

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time frame we live in. And that raises

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a whole host of questions.

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The issue of gradualism, the issue of pragmatism,

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the issue of understanding

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classical fiqh in modern times to what level

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there's allowed, to what level there isn't allowed.

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So today we're gonna be talking about a

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number of topics

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that overall

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deal with

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the internal

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leeway

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that the Sharia provides and where that leeway

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crosses the red line in terms of

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fine tuning the akham

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of our fiqh. So with this overall introduction,

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Sheikh, can you summarize for us certain

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principles that every single student of knowledge should

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be aware of when it comes to,

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understanding

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akham and you know the famous principle,

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and

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all of these types of maxims and al'ulfaamuhaqqam.

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Can you help us for whatever, you know,

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you have in mind to summarize the most

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essential

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and maxims that the student of knowledge should

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be aware of?

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1st, the second for

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the invitation.

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And then,

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as as as you said, the there are

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certain principles that are immutable principles, Islamic principles

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that are immutable, they are unchanging.

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The beauty of Islam and the genius of

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the Sharia of Islam is that we have,

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constant objectives. We have overarching maxims that do

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not change,

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and we have a very flexible legal framework.

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When we say flexible legal framework, people should

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not misunderstand

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this to to mean that we can

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basically play around with our,

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detailed rulings whenever we want by Tashahi

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or by passions and desires

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and biases.

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This is not true.

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So Alimam Shattabi has a statement,

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that that that is

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very accurate, very precise, and very thoughtful

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about the divine address not being subject to

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change.

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He says that had the Sharia,

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had had it been meant for this world

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to be eternal,

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the Sharia would never need to be changed.

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We would never need a new,

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divine address to humanity. It's done. Khitab al

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Illahi has been fulfilled

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by the Sharia of Islam and if this

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world

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was meant to be eternal or were meant

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to be eternal, which it is not,

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the sharia will be

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relevant and applicable for eternity.

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And he says when customs change,

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it's

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and

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and new rulings are applied to new customs,

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this is not a change in the divine

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address itself. However, it is

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basically,

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those customs

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falling under different principles

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different principles of the Sharia that are that

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continue to be fixed.

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So imagine 3 layers, the highest objectives of

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the Sharia,

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the overarching maxims and principles of the Sharia

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and then the flexible

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legal framework.

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The Sharia,

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the objectives

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are stable. They are fixed. They're up here.

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The principles

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are here,

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and those are basically,

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the the the legal maxims, the manatahab alakam,

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the effective cause of alakam,

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and and so on. Those are fixed.

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And then,

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underneath,

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you know, there is the,

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changing customs, the changing circumstances,

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changing realities.

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And those changing realities,

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when they move, when they change, they fall

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under different principles.

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The principles are fixed. The reality is changing.

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They would fall under different,

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principles.

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There is

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there has been and there will continue to

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be if we were

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to keep the relevance and the

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practicability

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or practicality, I'm sorry, of the Sharia,

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then we will have to

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recognize that there has always been a dialectic

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between

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the law

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and the reality.

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And this dialectic

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was recognized

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by the scholars. The the erudite,

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verifying

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scholars have always recognized this

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and have always been,

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ready to

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adapt to new realities and to adjust Ilhakam

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to new realities.

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If you remember in our previous discussion

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about the Khalifa, we talked about how

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the scholars,

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you know, out of their

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interest in and desire for peace and order,

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they were flexible enough to accept

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sort of different

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forms

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of conferring legitimacy

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on,

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you know, imams, whether it's through ahad

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or passing on the covenant or

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even forceful seizure of power in the interest

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of peace and order.

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You could say that this is like a

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manifestation of their pragmatism

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or their,

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basically,

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adaptation

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to different realities of their of their times.

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So

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we we need to make sure,

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at the end of the day that,

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only qualified

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scholars will be entrusted

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with

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this

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very important work of the jiddeed or the

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renewal and revival

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of the Sharia

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and and the prophet

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used the word Tajdid

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Allah

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will commission,

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send to this

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Ummah,

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you know, at the beginning of every century

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or at the turn of every century.

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He who will or they who will,

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many people say it is they, not he.

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They who will renew its theme for it.

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Renew.

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He used renewal.

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He did not use restoration.

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He used renewal.

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And many people want to say

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that it is only about restoration.

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It is only about bringing the people back

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to the way things were during the time

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of the prophet

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and the companions

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radiallahu anhu. And of course it is,

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mainly about this. It's mostly about this. It's

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mostly about the fact that the Ummah can

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drift away from the Islamic ideals and needs

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to be reminded

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of the Islamic ideals,

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but it is also about its tahari renewal.

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It's also about

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adjusting to new realities and adapting

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to new realities,

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not simply

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restoration. Because restoration would

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be suitable

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for,

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basically restoring a, a fixed structure, like

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a static fixed structure, like a building,

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to its old glory.

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But Islam is a lot more dynamic than

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this. So, Sheikh, all of this is fine

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theoretically. As you know, the devil is in

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the details. Right? Of course. And as you're

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aware, there's a constant pushback and internal struggle

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and dialogue going on between

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rilemmah and dua'at, between movements. As you're aware,

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you have the hardcore traditionalist,

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and then you have you know, the both

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of us are coming from the Tajdidi Wasati

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revival paradigm exemplified by Rashid Irulah and others

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of trying to rethink through. And then you

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have, of course, modernists and progressives who really

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don't seem to care about the Sharia. So

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you have this entire spectrum. So again, the

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question is in your mind, what is the

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what is the red line like up to

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what level? What when it when would it

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be considered,

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that you are actually rejecting the sharia or

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or trying to do that which is not

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allowed to do?

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Okay. So when you try to change things

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that are not meant to be changed ever,

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there are certain things. There are,

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the creeds,

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that are not meant to be changed.

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There are the,

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morality, the principles of morality,

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in Islam. These are not meant to be

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changed.

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There are

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There are the sort of

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the fixed,

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instructions

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of the Sharia

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and quantifiable

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instructions of the Sharia that are not meant

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to be changed.

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There are,

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mostly in the area of Ibadat. The Ibadat

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are never meant to be changed,

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So there will not come a time where,

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fasting in Ramadan will start from Zuhr and

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end at Asro or Maghreb.

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These things are never meant to be changed,

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but there is plenty of room for a

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change in

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certain areas, in international relations,

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in financial transactions,

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in

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some adaptability even

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in family rules or family laws,

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that's

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less amenable to change. We'd be closer to

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Ibadat than it is to Muhammad, but there

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should still be some room for adaptation to

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new realities in the world.

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There Who gets to decide, Sheikh?

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The qualified scholars, the and that's why we

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have it. There will be an internal

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disagreement at times.

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Certainly. Most certainly. Outside of that circle should

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understand

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where qualified scholars disagree and where they are

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unanimous in this regard. Right? Because one of

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the problems we have is, again,

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the the quickness with which any type of

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discussion of the type that you're doing is

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automatically disqualified

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because there's a knee jerk reaction to any

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type of fine tuning that the sharia actually

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allows. So I'm gonna now do a deep

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dive and do specific topics. And again, for

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the record, this is not scripted. Yeah. We

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were just, I have questions and ideas in

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mind, but you know, this is something we're

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coming organically, InshaAllah Wa Ta'la. So I wanna

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hear the sheikh's view, and obviously I have

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my views, and then we can, discuss them

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back and forth. But let's begin with one

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of the most

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constantly

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discussed issues over and over again, and that

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is the Hudud

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and apostasy laws.

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What do you expect a modern Muslim nation

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state, a modern Muslim country

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that suppose a political party because theoretically, I

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don't wanna mention specific country's name. Suppose a

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Muslim majority country, an Islamist party comes to

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power. Right? And now they have taken over,

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a massive group of of of Muslims,

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the majority of whom are not religious people

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5 times a day praying. The majority of

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whom are involved in sins like drinking and

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whatnot. And now this party has come to

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power, and they decide to

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fine tune

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and not apply the Sharia instantaneously.

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Because according to their view, I mean, again,

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let's look at Egypt when the spring happened,

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Arab spring happened. As you know, the quick

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modifications

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that, the Islamist party had to do, like,

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is there gonna be Jizyah? Well, okay, I

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guess not. There's not gonna be Jizyah. Okay.

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How about a non Muslim, power? Oh, they

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can have power except for the president. What

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do you mean he can't be there? So

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as you know, the whole conversation took place.

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Is that kufr?

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The gradualism that these parties adopted.

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Can they make a temporary change for the

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sake of a greater good?

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Or

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must they apply instantaneously?

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Or

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is there actual leeway for rethinking through, for

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example, apostasy and the

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the the the the the the punishment for

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apostasy? Some thoughts about these types of things.

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And I have my views, but let's hear

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yours.

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Okay. So yeah.

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The first thing that we have to agree

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on, and we I think Muslims practice Muslims

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all agree on is the perfection of the

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Sharia and the ultimate wisdom of our lord

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and mercy of our lord.

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And whatever it is that he have legislated

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for us

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is,

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infinite infinitely wise.

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So Sharia is is based on the benefit,

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and the well-being, welfare of people

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in this life and the one to come

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and,

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sort of immediate and long term.

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And he says it's it's all about mercy.

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It's all about justice. It is all about

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wisdom.

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Anything that departs from this is not part

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of the sharia even if it was interpolated

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into it. So we

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we have to,

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accept,

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the sharia in its entirety.

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The prophet Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala said

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which basically embrace Islam in its entirety. All

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of you embrace Islam or it could mean

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also embrace Islam in its entirety.

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So we are embracing Islam in its entirety.

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You

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know, everything that comes from our lord is

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good for us.

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But at, again, at the same time, I

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don't think that even

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the the most

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strict

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I I shouldn't say that, but I think

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that even the more strict,

00:14:22 --> 00:14:24

there there are people outside of the scholarly

00:14:24 --> 00:14:26

community, and we're not talking about the people,

00:14:26 --> 00:14:29

the extremists outside of the scholarly community, but

00:14:29 --> 00:14:30

within the scholarly community,

00:14:31 --> 00:14:33

even the stricter scholars would recognize the need

00:14:33 --> 00:14:34

for gradualism.

00:14:35 --> 00:14:39

Even the stricter scholars would recognize that Umar

00:14:39 --> 00:14:41

suspended the hadd for sariqa,

00:14:41 --> 00:14:44

during Gamal Majah or during the famine.

00:14:46 --> 00:14:47

And they would recognize

00:14:48 --> 00:14:50

how Omar changed certain things because of the

00:14:50 --> 00:14:51

changes in sociopolitical

00:14:53 --> 00:14:56

realities. You know? The the the deya that

00:14:56 --> 00:14:57

used to be that

00:14:58 --> 00:14:59

it used to be, or the the the

00:14:59 --> 00:15:02

blood money that used to be, the responsibility

00:15:02 --> 00:15:04

of, which is the paternal

00:15:04 --> 00:15:05

kin.

00:15:06 --> 00:15:08

Omar changed it because of the changes in

00:15:08 --> 00:15:11

the social political realities of of their times.

00:15:11 --> 00:15:13

People moved around, and by the time you

00:15:13 --> 00:15:14

collected the data from Al Hakad, it would

00:15:14 --> 00:15:16

have taken months or years and would have

00:15:16 --> 00:15:17

been an unfair

00:15:17 --> 00:15:20

to the family of the victim. But Omar

00:15:20 --> 00:15:22

changed that to Adi Diwan, the people that

00:15:22 --> 00:15:24

are registered in the same or these people

00:15:24 --> 00:15:25

in the same registry.

00:15:26 --> 00:15:30

Same town, same Nakaba or Sendikit, same this,

00:15:30 --> 00:15:31

same that.

00:15:32 --> 00:15:35

And that that is basically a precursor of,

00:15:35 --> 00:15:37

like, insurance companies. You know? Like,

00:15:38 --> 00:15:39

interesting. So, yeah,

00:15:40 --> 00:15:41

so

00:15:42 --> 00:15:44

so even the strictest scholars

00:15:45 --> 00:15:47

or the the the the stricter scholars would

00:15:47 --> 00:15:48

recognize

00:15:49 --> 00:15:50

adaptability and would rather

00:15:51 --> 00:15:53

of course, you know, the Hanafis and Maryknives

00:15:53 --> 00:15:54

accepted Omar's

00:15:55 --> 00:15:57

position on on the issue of lahakila not

00:15:57 --> 00:15:59

the Shafi'ez al Hanbari so there is still

00:15:59 --> 00:16:00

this

00:16:00 --> 00:16:02

there is still disagreement, and there is still,

00:16:02 --> 00:16:03

like, a,

00:16:05 --> 00:16:08

a dialogue between the scholars and this dialectic

00:16:08 --> 00:16:10

between the law and the reality.

00:16:11 --> 00:16:12

But,

00:16:12 --> 00:16:13

gradualism

00:16:13 --> 00:16:15

is is basically

00:16:16 --> 00:16:16

just

00:16:17 --> 00:16:20

it's untenable to think that you could impose

00:16:20 --> 00:16:22

all of these things all of a sudden

00:16:22 --> 00:16:24

on on people without

00:16:25 --> 00:16:28

sort of gradual steps towards the the realizing

00:16:28 --> 00:16:31

gradualism would not be considered Kufr. Oh, of

00:16:31 --> 00:16:34

course not. Like, of course not. So to

00:16:34 --> 00:16:36

be very specific then But also the the

00:16:36 --> 00:16:39

Hadood, yeah, in all honesty, the the the

00:16:39 --> 00:16:41

the hype about the Hadood, the the there

00:16:41 --> 00:16:41

are,

00:16:42 --> 00:16:44

you know, people disagree. How many hadood are

00:16:44 --> 00:16:46

there? The the 3, 4, 5, all the

00:16:46 --> 00:16:48

Yeah. So let's say 4 hadood,

00:16:49 --> 00:16:51

that that that are fixed penalties.

00:16:52 --> 00:16:55

Look. Why is it why is acclimatally a

00:16:55 --> 00:16:57

team or devouring the wealth of the orphan

00:16:57 --> 00:16:59

more? Less simple. Exactly.

00:16:59 --> 00:17:00

Not a hard double.

00:17:01 --> 00:17:03

Hard double is a new one. Okay. That's

00:17:03 --> 00:17:06

yeah. I use those things. Okay. But but

00:17:06 --> 00:17:07

but why why there is why there is

00:17:07 --> 00:17:08

no hard

00:17:08 --> 00:17:10

for acrimanidity a team? That that smoke your

00:17:10 --> 00:17:12

cart, you know, for for riba.

00:17:14 --> 00:17:14

So

00:17:15 --> 00:17:17

if you look if you examine the the

00:17:17 --> 00:17:18

hadood punishments,

00:17:27 --> 00:17:28

deterrence, and the for deterrence,

00:17:29 --> 00:17:30

and evidentiary

00:17:30 --> 00:17:33

standards that were applied by the scholars throughout

00:17:33 --> 00:17:33

the ages,

00:17:35 --> 00:17:38

indicate that this is about deterrence. It is

00:17:38 --> 00:17:40

not about revenge.

00:17:41 --> 00:17:43

It is about it is about deterrence and

00:17:49 --> 00:17:51

Great harm can can ensue from this family

00:17:51 --> 00:17:54

breakdown, societal breakdown. And then,

00:17:54 --> 00:17:57

the pull, you know, is is enormous. That

00:17:57 --> 00:18:00

that lust has enormous power.

00:18:00 --> 00:18:03

So there has to be a high wall

00:18:03 --> 00:18:05

to deter people from this

00:18:05 --> 00:18:07

crime that will cause this much harm,

00:18:07 --> 00:18:08

you know,

00:18:08 --> 00:18:11

to protect people's honor. The same applies to

00:18:11 --> 00:18:13

qasf, to protect people's honor. And then the

00:18:13 --> 00:18:15

push is also great because it's usually done

00:18:15 --> 00:18:17

in a state of extreme anger.

00:18:18 --> 00:18:20

You have, you

00:18:21 --> 00:18:22

know,

00:18:22 --> 00:18:25

not not hadood specifically, but but, which is

00:18:25 --> 00:18:26

also severe punishment,

00:18:27 --> 00:18:27

you know,

00:18:28 --> 00:18:29

equal retribution,

00:18:30 --> 00:18:32

to protect people's life. You have,

00:18:34 --> 00:18:35

you know, the cry

00:18:35 --> 00:18:37

the theft, for instance,

00:18:37 --> 00:18:40

to to protect people's property. And then the

00:18:40 --> 00:18:41

the the drive,

00:18:42 --> 00:18:43

for it is is huge as well. So

00:18:43 --> 00:18:44

let us

00:18:44 --> 00:18:47

understand that we're talking about

00:18:48 --> 00:18:49

4 or 5 punishments

00:18:50 --> 00:18:51

out of

00:18:51 --> 00:18:52

1,000

00:18:52 --> 00:18:54

that are left morals are yeah. In the

00:18:54 --> 00:18:55

are left for discretionary

00:18:56 --> 00:18:58

punishment. Yeah. You know, tazir.

00:18:59 --> 00:19:00

And out of

00:19:01 --> 00:19:04

1,000 more where no punishment at all is

00:19:04 --> 00:19:04

prescribed

00:19:05 --> 00:19:06

or, like,

00:19:07 --> 00:19:08

no penalties

00:19:09 --> 00:19:10

are are prescribed

00:19:11 --> 00:19:13

whatsoever or encouraged whatsoever.

00:19:13 --> 00:19:14

So

00:19:14 --> 00:19:17

it it we have to basically

00:19:17 --> 00:19:19

think of the Hadood in in in light

00:19:19 --> 00:19:20

of this and

00:19:20 --> 00:19:22

understand that gradualism

00:19:25 --> 00:19:27

is is an essential,

00:19:28 --> 00:19:30

basically part of the application

00:19:31 --> 00:19:32

of Sharia.

00:19:32 --> 00:19:35

Gradualism is an essential purpose. There'll be so

00:19:35 --> 00:19:37

let's be firstly, give you an example. Again,

00:19:37 --> 00:19:38

hypothetical.

00:19:38 --> 00:19:41

So And you talked about apostasy. Right? Yeah,

00:19:41 --> 00:19:42

we'll get back to the before we start

00:19:42 --> 00:19:44

that one. Hypothetical example.

00:19:44 --> 00:19:47

A majority Muslim land has had an Islamist

00:19:47 --> 00:19:48

party, they win the party, they win it,

00:19:48 --> 00:19:50

they're now in parliament, or at least they

00:19:50 --> 00:19:50

can

00:19:51 --> 00:19:53

maneuver. But the country has allowed,

00:19:53 --> 00:19:54

Zina, has allowed,

00:19:55 --> 00:19:57

has allowed so much Fawahish.

00:19:57 --> 00:19:59

The the Islamist party

00:20:00 --> 00:20:03

tactically wants to get to a position where

00:20:04 --> 00:20:05

more and more Islamic laws can be applied,

00:20:05 --> 00:20:07

but they can't do it overnight. So they

00:20:07 --> 00:20:09

say that, okay,

00:20:10 --> 00:20:13

let us start, let's just say, taxing,

00:20:13 --> 00:20:16

hamar. Let's just say. So that we wanna

00:20:16 --> 00:20:18

deincentive or sorry. Sorry. Yeah. Deincentive. I wanna

00:20:18 --> 00:20:20

make it, you know, more difficult for them

00:20:20 --> 00:20:22

to acquire. They cannot shut it down immediately,

00:20:22 --> 00:20:23

let's just say.

00:20:24 --> 00:20:26

Critics are gonna say, this is Kufr.

00:20:27 --> 00:20:27

They have

00:20:28 --> 00:20:29

not applied the Sharia.

00:20:30 --> 00:20:32

And even if they're trying to de incentivize,

00:20:33 --> 00:20:34

the fact of the matter is

00:20:34 --> 00:20:36

it's still allowed and their laws

00:20:37 --> 00:20:40

are not banning and prohibiting. The counterargument from

00:20:40 --> 00:20:42

their side is that, yeah, but we have

00:20:42 --> 00:20:44

a group of drunkards, we have a whole

00:20:44 --> 00:20:47

society that's immersed in this sin. They're not

00:20:47 --> 00:20:49

gonna go from 0 to 100 immediately.

00:20:49 --> 00:20:52

So as one simple Again, hijab for example,

00:20:52 --> 00:20:54

right? As you are aware, those countries that

00:20:54 --> 00:20:56

have tried to enforce it,

00:20:56 --> 00:20:58

generally speaking, has been a harsh backlash.

00:20:59 --> 00:21:00

You know? And

00:21:00 --> 00:21:02

those countries that are organically

00:21:02 --> 00:21:05

attempting to bring about morality have actually seen

00:21:05 --> 00:21:06

massive success rates

00:21:07 --> 00:21:09

in this regard. So comments and thoughts on

00:21:09 --> 00:21:10

this type of these examples.

00:21:11 --> 00:21:13

Well, you you know, the

00:21:14 --> 00:21:16

the taxing the hamra, for instance,

00:21:17 --> 00:21:19

this is what our Khalifa did, you know,

00:21:19 --> 00:21:21

from the Rashidun, but not not,

00:21:21 --> 00:21:24

you know, levying taxes on Muslims, but non

00:21:24 --> 00:21:24

Muslims.

00:21:25 --> 00:21:27

So non Muslims and,

00:21:30 --> 00:21:31

and the Omar

00:21:31 --> 00:21:32

said,

00:21:32 --> 00:21:34

let them sell it, and then you take,

00:21:36 --> 00:21:37

basically,

00:21:37 --> 00:21:40

your taxes from them. You take the tax

00:21:40 --> 00:21:42

your taxes from them.

00:21:43 --> 00:21:45

So non Muslims in a Muslim country will

00:21:45 --> 00:21:47

not be forced to shun ham.

00:21:47 --> 00:21:50

They're allowed to sell ham to among themselves.

00:21:51 --> 00:21:53

And to produce it and manufacture it then.

00:21:53 --> 00:21:54

Yeah. Well, if you're there, they will sell

00:21:54 --> 00:21:55

it, they will produce it.

00:21:56 --> 00:21:58

Mhmm. And and

00:21:59 --> 00:22:01

then they collected taxes from them.

00:22:01 --> 00:22:03

And this is not

00:22:03 --> 00:22:04

this is

00:22:05 --> 00:22:06

not. This is.

00:22:07 --> 00:22:08

But that was for the.

00:22:09 --> 00:22:10

That's for. Yes.

00:22:11 --> 00:22:12

So the idea that

00:22:13 --> 00:22:15

you will never find Hamr in a Muslim

00:22:15 --> 00:22:17

country and it would never be allowed, would

00:22:17 --> 00:22:18

be completely eliminated

00:22:18 --> 00:22:22

is has not been real or or true

00:22:22 --> 00:22:25

even the time of Muhammad bin Khattab. Exactly.

00:22:25 --> 00:22:27

So let's be clear on this. The the

00:22:27 --> 00:22:28

second thing is

00:22:28 --> 00:22:30

now if Muslims

00:22:30 --> 00:22:32

like, if if we can do this with

00:22:32 --> 00:22:32

non Muslims,

00:22:33 --> 00:22:36

we wanted to sort of bring Muslims into

00:22:36 --> 00:22:37

the fold of Islam,

00:22:38 --> 00:22:38

gradually.

00:22:39 --> 00:22:40

And if if,

00:22:41 --> 00:22:42

taxing,

00:22:42 --> 00:22:43

hamr

00:22:43 --> 00:22:45

will be a step towards,

00:22:47 --> 00:22:49

you know, the the complete prohibition

00:22:50 --> 00:22:51

of Hamr

00:22:52 --> 00:22:52

enforced

00:22:52 --> 00:22:53

by

00:22:53 --> 00:22:56

the government, complete sort of enforced

00:22:56 --> 00:22:57

enforcement of prohibition

00:22:58 --> 00:22:59

by the government.

00:23:01 --> 00:23:02

Prohibition of hamra

00:23:03 --> 00:23:04

can never be

00:23:05 --> 00:23:07

sort of debated among Muslims.

00:23:08 --> 00:23:10

Hamra is prohibited. You are a sinner if

00:23:10 --> 00:23:12

you drink. You are a sinner if you

00:23:12 --> 00:23:14

sell, buy, produce,

00:23:16 --> 00:23:19

etcetera. Certainly, you know, there there is this

00:23:19 --> 00:23:21

this agreement outside of the Muslim lands and

00:23:21 --> 00:23:22

and and then so on in terms of

00:23:22 --> 00:23:23

selling it. But

00:23:24 --> 00:23:26

but the idea here is we're not talking

00:23:26 --> 00:23:28

about the ruling of Khamri here. We're talking

00:23:28 --> 00:23:30

about a Muslim government

00:23:31 --> 00:23:33

who comes like or or or

00:23:34 --> 00:23:35

and

00:23:35 --> 00:23:37

and and in all honesty,

00:23:37 --> 00:23:38

I I believe that,

00:23:39 --> 00:23:41

I believe that,

00:23:41 --> 00:23:44

Islam should be kept away from partisan politics.

00:23:44 --> 00:23:45

Islam can never be

00:23:46 --> 00:23:47

apoliticized

00:23:48 --> 00:23:50

or can never you know, you can never

00:23:50 --> 00:23:52

remove politics from Islam

00:23:52 --> 00:23:55

or Islam from politics, Islam from influencing the

00:23:55 --> 00:23:58

public space. But I don't think that Islam

00:23:58 --> 00:23:59

should be

00:23:59 --> 00:24:00

exploited

00:24:00 --> 00:24:01

or used,

00:24:03 --> 00:24:04

for partisan politics.

00:24:05 --> 00:24:05

But if

00:24:06 --> 00:24:08

a group of well meaning Muslims,

00:24:10 --> 00:24:13

or like a well meaning party that is

00:24:13 --> 00:24:15

Islamically oriented, that is

00:24:16 --> 00:24:18

informed in their policies and their strategies and

00:24:18 --> 00:24:20

their priorities and their objectives

00:24:21 --> 00:24:23

by their Islamic values

00:24:23 --> 00:24:26

and their commitment to their religious commitment,

00:24:26 --> 00:24:27

come into power

00:24:28 --> 00:24:30

and decide that they will,

00:24:31 --> 00:24:32

try to,

00:24:33 --> 00:24:35

take gradual steps towards,

00:24:35 --> 00:24:38

you know, the the complete prohibition of ham

00:24:38 --> 00:24:38

for Muslims

00:24:39 --> 00:24:40

for Muslims,

00:24:40 --> 00:24:42

then I would not fall to them, let

00:24:42 --> 00:24:43

alone call them kuffar.

00:24:43 --> 00:24:45

So again, Sheikh, as you're aware, no scholar

00:24:45 --> 00:24:47

is of that nature. But unfortunately, we have

00:24:47 --> 00:24:49

to deal with so many, especially in the

00:24:49 --> 00:24:51

west today, they they don't understand

00:24:51 --> 00:24:52

the gradualism or

00:24:53 --> 00:24:54

and they assume that,

00:24:55 --> 00:24:57

you know, we have to implement sharia instantaneously

00:24:58 --> 00:25:00

overnight. And this is something that we have

00:25:00 --> 00:25:02

spoken about multiple times. Let me give you

00:25:02 --> 00:25:04

the, another example of that. You remember Abdul

00:25:04 --> 00:25:07

Malik bin Marwan, Abdul Malik bin Omar ibn

00:25:07 --> 00:25:08

Abdul Aziz, and what he said to Omar

00:25:08 --> 00:25:10

ibn Abdul Aziz. Like, he blamed him for

00:25:10 --> 00:25:14

Yes. You know, for his timidity to to

00:25:14 --> 00:25:16

enforce all the Always the youngsters when I

00:25:16 --> 00:25:20

have that immediatism. Yeah. Who's being blamed here?

00:25:31 --> 00:25:32

That's what it is.

00:25:32 --> 00:25:35

Like, aren't you happy if you if no

00:25:35 --> 00:25:36

day passes

00:25:37 --> 00:25:39

except that your father will be

00:25:40 --> 00:25:42

Yeah. It's getting better bit by bit. Yes.

00:25:43 --> 00:25:43

Exactly.

00:25:44 --> 00:25:46

I I think that this the the that

00:25:46 --> 00:25:48

this is the difference between Abdel Malik,

00:25:48 --> 00:25:50

ibn Omar ibn Abdul Aziz, and Omar ibn

00:25:50 --> 00:25:51

Abdul Aziz. Youngster,

00:25:52 --> 00:25:52

idealistic,

00:25:53 --> 00:25:54

seasoned politician,

00:25:54 --> 00:25:57

wise experience. This is the difference between the

00:25:57 --> 00:26:00

2. Pious. Pious as well. It's Much more

00:26:00 --> 00:26:03

pious, much more knowledgeable. Yes. This is the

00:26:03 --> 00:26:04

standard clash, Sheikh. So we have to always

00:26:04 --> 00:26:06

deal with it. So, Sheykh, one of the

00:26:06 --> 00:26:08

issues that we constantly get asked, and I

00:26:08 --> 00:26:10

get asked this in public by non Muslims

00:26:10 --> 00:26:12

in particular, and I've given my responses in

00:26:12 --> 00:26:15

this regard. The issue of apostasy and blasphemy.

00:26:15 --> 00:26:18

And my position has been no doubt the

00:26:18 --> 00:26:19

Sharia has

00:26:19 --> 00:26:22

the ideal laws, and nobody has the right

00:26:22 --> 00:26:24

to permanently change the laws of the Sharia.

00:26:25 --> 00:26:27

Given the nation states we live in, given

00:26:27 --> 00:26:29

that the world has changed and we are

00:26:29 --> 00:26:31

no longer under a khilafa,

00:26:31 --> 00:26:34

just like in a nation state, we cannot

00:26:34 --> 00:26:36

implement the jizya. Even though ideally, there is

00:26:36 --> 00:26:38

just this notion of jizya. So given the

00:26:38 --> 00:26:41

modern world we live in, that if somebody

00:26:41 --> 00:26:43

changes one's faith

00:26:43 --> 00:26:45

in a Muslim majority land,

00:26:45 --> 00:26:47

it's up to them

00:26:47 --> 00:26:49

if they're able to implement. Alhamdulillah, and that

00:26:49 --> 00:26:52

is ideal. Nobody's gonna deny that. But if

00:26:52 --> 00:26:54

in case an Islamic party is not able

00:26:54 --> 00:26:55

to implement Allah's

00:26:56 --> 00:26:57

ideal ruling in that particular

00:26:58 --> 00:26:58

situation,

00:26:58 --> 00:27:00

this is not in and of itself a

00:27:00 --> 00:27:02

rejection of the Sharia as long as they

00:27:02 --> 00:27:04

don't ascribe it to Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala.

00:27:04 --> 00:27:06

As long as they understand that given the

00:27:06 --> 00:27:08

modern dynamics we live in, that this is

00:27:08 --> 00:27:10

not something that is possible for us to

00:27:10 --> 00:27:13

do without repercussions that are worse than the

00:27:13 --> 00:27:16

positives we think will be achieved. Right? So

00:27:16 --> 00:27:18

that has been my position. That that is

00:27:18 --> 00:27:20

something that a modern nation state,

00:27:21 --> 00:27:23

because they're not a Khalifa and because they're

00:27:23 --> 00:27:26

not applying they cannot apply all the sharia

00:27:26 --> 00:27:28

anyway. So what are your thoughts on this

00:27:28 --> 00:27:28

of,

00:27:29 --> 00:27:31

apostasy laws and and, blasphemy laws?

00:27:32 --> 00:27:34

I would even take it a step further

00:27:34 --> 00:27:37

and say that apostasy, you know,

00:27:37 --> 00:27:38

you know, that I'm Hanbali,

00:27:39 --> 00:27:41

in in our method, it is not a

00:27:41 --> 00:27:44

hard. It is not a fixed penalty. It's

00:27:44 --> 00:27:44

a discretionary,

00:27:45 --> 00:27:46

punishment,

00:27:48 --> 00:27:48

a discretionary

00:27:49 --> 00:27:51

punishment that was legislated. I have written a

00:27:51 --> 00:27:54

paper on this. It's it's online. If you

00:27:54 --> 00:27:56

put in my name and apostasy, you will

00:27:56 --> 00:27:58

find my my detailed position

00:27:58 --> 00:28:00

on this issue. I I don't think that

00:28:00 --> 00:28:02

it would be possible for us to deny

00:28:02 --> 00:28:03

that this

00:28:03 --> 00:28:04

ruling had existed,

00:28:05 --> 00:28:07

that this punishment has been executed,

00:28:08 --> 00:28:11

by, you know, the the the the the

00:28:11 --> 00:28:11

Khalifa.

00:28:13 --> 00:28:16

It it is controversial whether it was ever

00:28:17 --> 00:28:19

implemented during the time of the prophet.

00:28:20 --> 00:28:20

There's

00:28:21 --> 00:28:21

controversial

00:28:22 --> 00:28:24

reports about this. I'm aware of them,

00:28:24 --> 00:28:27

but it is unclear whether the prophet sallallahu

00:28:27 --> 00:28:28

alaihi wa sallam ever implemented

00:28:29 --> 00:28:29

this

00:28:37 --> 00:28:38

in his face, you know,

00:28:39 --> 00:28:40

who who were left,

00:28:41 --> 00:28:44

and this punishment was not exact exacted against

00:28:44 --> 00:28:46

them. And that is part of the reason

00:28:46 --> 00:28:48

why in HambeliFEP,

00:28:49 --> 00:28:52

this is considered as a discretionary punishment because

00:28:52 --> 00:28:54

how they can never be

00:28:54 --> 00:28:56

suspended once, you know,

00:28:57 --> 00:28:59

it reaches the court and the prophet

00:28:59 --> 00:29:01

was the court at at those times.

00:29:02 --> 00:29:02

It has to be,

00:29:03 --> 00:29:03

basically,

00:29:05 --> 00:29:06

sort of applied.

00:29:08 --> 00:29:10

But since the prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam

00:29:10 --> 00:29:12

waved it at at certain times,

00:29:13 --> 00:29:16

then it makes it makes perfect sense that

00:29:16 --> 00:29:17

this is punishment.

00:29:17 --> 00:29:18

It existed.

00:29:19 --> 00:29:20

This is the position of the 4 imams,

00:29:20 --> 00:29:23

particularly with Muslim men. The imam Hanifa has

00:29:23 --> 00:29:26

a different position, about Muslim women, which also

00:29:26 --> 00:29:26

indicates

00:29:27 --> 00:29:29

the the the legal justification,

00:29:30 --> 00:29:31

the sort of,

00:29:32 --> 00:29:34

racial lesions be behind this

00:29:35 --> 00:29:35

law

00:29:36 --> 00:29:38

that, why is he differentiating between men and

00:29:38 --> 00:29:39

women? Because,

00:29:41 --> 00:29:42

traditionally,

00:29:43 --> 00:29:44

people who apostate

00:29:44 --> 00:29:45

apostatize

00:29:45 --> 00:29:45

or,

00:29:46 --> 00:29:48

k, you know, went back into,

00:29:49 --> 00:29:51

Khafre. They joined the

00:29:52 --> 00:29:53

Kufar. They joined.

00:29:53 --> 00:29:56

They they they, and they they started to

00:29:56 --> 00:29:57

fight

00:29:57 --> 00:30:01

against Muslims, but he they estimated that women

00:30:01 --> 00:30:03

would not be doing this, would not be

00:30:03 --> 00:30:03

fighting.

00:30:05 --> 00:30:08

Anyway, the the discussion on apostasy and the

00:30:08 --> 00:30:11

different positions the different scholars, particularly contemporary scholars,

00:30:11 --> 00:30:12

have taken,

00:30:13 --> 00:30:15

taken with regard to apostasy is is a

00:30:15 --> 00:30:16

very lengthy discussion.

00:30:17 --> 00:30:18

But in my viewpoint,

00:30:18 --> 00:30:21

this is a discretionary punishment that does exist.

00:30:21 --> 00:30:23

It existed in our history.

00:30:23 --> 00:30:26

But being a discretionary punishment, it can be

00:30:26 --> 00:30:28

suspended for a greater benefit. It can be

00:30:28 --> 00:30:28

suspended

00:30:29 --> 00:30:31

for a greater benefit. Even more radical than

00:30:31 --> 00:30:33

what I have argued for. Yeah. Okay. So

00:30:33 --> 00:30:35

you're saying, Uslan, in your view, it's not

00:30:35 --> 00:30:37

a had. It's not a had. It's a

00:30:37 --> 00:30:39

discretionary punishment. And in this case, being a

00:30:39 --> 00:30:40

discretionary punishment,

00:30:41 --> 00:30:43

it is within the jurisdiction

00:30:43 --> 00:30:45

of the Muslim authority

00:30:45 --> 00:30:47

to suspend it. It is within the power

00:30:47 --> 00:30:48

and the authority

00:30:49 --> 00:30:51

of the imam or the Muslim,

00:30:52 --> 00:30:52

government

00:30:53 --> 00:30:55

to suspend it for a greater benefit. And

00:30:55 --> 00:30:58

the obvious greater benefit here is

00:30:59 --> 00:31:00

reciprocation.

00:31:00 --> 00:31:03

Yes, the right now. Keep the doors open.

00:31:03 --> 00:31:04

You know,

00:31:09 --> 00:31:11

as an Imam al Hazm said, that that

00:31:12 --> 00:31:12

to prevail,

00:31:13 --> 00:31:14

there are 2 ways to this,

00:31:15 --> 00:31:17

by Hajja and Burhan, by proofs and, you

00:31:17 --> 00:31:18

know,

00:31:18 --> 00:31:19

evidences,

00:31:20 --> 00:31:23

or as Saif and Sinan, or by spears

00:31:23 --> 00:31:23

and swords.

00:31:24 --> 00:31:24

Islam

00:31:25 --> 00:31:26

will sometimes

00:31:26 --> 00:31:26

prevail,

00:31:28 --> 00:31:30

in both respects but will always prevail in

00:31:30 --> 00:31:31

one respect,

00:31:32 --> 00:31:33

which is.

00:31:35 --> 00:31:38

So it would make perfect sense to keep

00:31:38 --> 00:31:41

the doors open, allow people to walk in

00:31:41 --> 00:31:41

and out,

00:31:42 --> 00:31:43

you know, and,

00:31:44 --> 00:31:47

basically, what what what what are you seeing?

00:31:47 --> 00:31:49

What are you seeing in the world today?

00:31:49 --> 00:31:51

When people are allowed to walk in and

00:31:51 --> 00:31:52

out? Are you seeing people

00:31:53 --> 00:31:53

basically,

00:31:55 --> 00:31:56

walking out

00:31:56 --> 00:31:59

more or walking in more? And which kind

00:31:59 --> 00:32:01

of people are walking out and which kind

00:32:01 --> 00:32:02

of people are walking in? Like, look at

00:32:02 --> 00:32:03

it impartially,

00:32:04 --> 00:32:06

but please look at the the people who

00:32:06 --> 00:32:07

are converting to Islam.

00:32:08 --> 00:32:11

Look at how sincere they are. Look at

00:32:11 --> 00:32:13

how thoughtful they are. Look at,

00:32:14 --> 00:32:16

their trajectory also after conversion.

00:32:17 --> 00:32:18

They become scholars.

00:32:19 --> 00:32:20

They become great Duais.

00:32:21 --> 00:32:24

They have complete commitment to Islam. And look

00:32:24 --> 00:32:26

at the people who leave Islam

00:32:26 --> 00:32:29

and there's a trajectory post apostasy.

00:32:30 --> 00:32:30

So

00:32:31 --> 00:32:32

should we

00:32:32 --> 00:32:34

keep the door open?

00:32:35 --> 00:32:37

Is it for the

00:32:38 --> 00:32:39

does it bring about a greater benefit for

00:32:39 --> 00:32:42

the Muslim community? Of course, someone would say

00:32:42 --> 00:32:45

that during the the colonial times,

00:32:46 --> 00:32:47

you know, like in

00:32:47 --> 00:32:48

Algeria, for instance,

00:32:49 --> 00:32:50

during French occupation,

00:32:51 --> 00:32:53

you know, and that is what Sheikh Abu

00:32:53 --> 00:32:54

Dhabi

00:32:54 --> 00:32:56

said that had had we not had the

00:32:56 --> 00:32:57

that punishment of apostasy,

00:33:00 --> 00:33:01

you know, the the community would have been

00:33:01 --> 00:33:03

destroyed because you have a lot of pressure,

00:33:04 --> 00:33:05

you know, under

00:33:06 --> 00:33:08

a pressure to leave Islam.

00:33:08 --> 00:33:09

You're being colonized.

00:33:09 --> 00:33:10

You're

00:33:11 --> 00:33:12

subject to,

00:33:12 --> 00:33:13

non Muslim

00:33:14 --> 00:33:14

tyrannical,

00:33:15 --> 00:33:16

rule.

00:33:16 --> 00:33:17

And in this case,

00:33:18 --> 00:33:19

had there not been

00:33:20 --> 00:33:20

mechanisms

00:33:21 --> 00:33:22

for the religious community

00:33:23 --> 00:33:25

to defend its integrity

00:33:25 --> 00:33:26

and to defend

00:33:26 --> 00:33:27

its,

00:33:27 --> 00:33:28

identity

00:33:28 --> 00:33:29

and,

00:33:29 --> 00:33:31

this sort of faith,

00:33:32 --> 00:33:34

there would have been a a great loss.

00:33:35 --> 00:33:36

But in our time, Sheikh Jihad So in

00:33:36 --> 00:33:39

our times, it's it's different. Exactly. It's different.

00:33:39 --> 00:33:41

When you apply such pressure, we have seen

00:33:41 --> 00:33:43

in multiple lands. Yes. When you apply this

00:33:43 --> 00:33:47

coercive pressure, in reality, the people rebel internally.

00:33:47 --> 00:33:49

Mhmm. And there is actually a detrimental

00:33:49 --> 00:33:51

effect on their iman. And that's why people

00:33:51 --> 00:33:55

actually have overthrown governments that they felt were

00:33:55 --> 00:33:56

too strict on them or even in the

00:33:56 --> 00:33:58

case of one land, don't like mentioning names.

00:33:58 --> 00:34:00

But the minute, you know, the the ruling

00:34:00 --> 00:34:02

party or the king relaxed, we see the

00:34:02 --> 00:34:04

reality of the people. And all of that

00:34:04 --> 00:34:07

strictness is literally was just completely

00:34:08 --> 00:34:10

shallow to the point of one wonders what

00:34:10 --> 00:34:12

level of Iman they had. So to be

00:34:12 --> 00:34:14

clear therefore, and because as you know, I

00:34:14 --> 00:34:15

get especially with a lot of pushback in

00:34:15 --> 00:34:19

this regard to rethink through the modern applications

00:34:19 --> 00:34:20

of these laws.

00:34:20 --> 00:34:22

Not only is it not a rejection of

00:34:22 --> 00:34:25

the Sharia, it actually might be the wiser

00:34:25 --> 00:34:27

course of action for a person who wants

00:34:27 --> 00:34:29

to apply the Sharia in the long term.

00:34:30 --> 00:34:32

Yeah. Of course. It would be bring about

00:34:32 --> 00:34:35

great benefit for for the community and for

00:34:35 --> 00:34:37

the faith, for the deen and for the.

00:34:38 --> 00:34:39

If we have,

00:34:40 --> 00:34:41

you know, a realistic,

00:34:41 --> 00:34:42

gradual,

00:34:43 --> 00:34:44

pragmatist,

00:34:44 --> 00:34:45

and I do

00:34:46 --> 00:34:47

repeat.

00:34:47 --> 00:34:48

I use this word,

00:34:48 --> 00:34:50

and I understand that it has a bad

00:34:50 --> 00:34:53

reputation within our community, but I I just,

00:34:53 --> 00:34:55

I am basically trying to underscore

00:34:55 --> 00:34:58

the positive connotations of this word,

00:34:58 --> 00:34:58

pragmatist.

00:34:59 --> 00:35:01

What if somebody were to say, Sheikh, that

00:35:01 --> 00:35:03

this is reforming Islam?

00:35:04 --> 00:35:06

No. It's not. Well, Omar Khattab did not

00:35:06 --> 00:35:08

change Islam when he changed

00:35:08 --> 00:35:10

the Excellent. Jay You know, when

00:35:11 --> 00:35:12

he suspended

00:35:12 --> 00:35:14

the, you know, the when he did not,

00:35:15 --> 00:35:18

basically divide the conquered lands between,

00:35:19 --> 00:35:20

between

00:35:20 --> 00:35:23

the conquerors or between the, you know, the

00:35:23 --> 00:35:23

army.

00:35:25 --> 00:35:27

So this is not changing Islam. This this

00:35:27 --> 00:35:30

is basically applying the Islamic principles to,

00:35:31 --> 00:35:32

different realities

00:35:33 --> 00:35:36

and adapting to circum circumstantial variables.

00:35:36 --> 00:35:38

Excellent. So, again, this is the key point,

00:35:38 --> 00:35:40

dear viewers, is to understand there's there's no

00:35:40 --> 00:35:43

reformation going on. The only reforming we're calling

00:35:43 --> 00:35:46

for is your understanding of what we're saying.

00:35:46 --> 00:35:48

Islam doesn't need reformation,

00:35:48 --> 00:35:50

rather it is the fine tuning that the

00:35:50 --> 00:35:53

Sharia allows, right? There's no, you know, protestor

00:35:53 --> 00:35:56

revolution going on. We're protesting the shallow understanding

00:35:56 --> 00:35:59

of Islam that some, people have. In reality,

00:35:59 --> 00:36:02

this is the wisdom that Allah has allowed

00:36:02 --> 00:36:02

within,

00:36:03 --> 00:36:05

the Sharia, the fine tuning, and the, the

00:36:05 --> 00:36:08

the gradualism that overall brings about a better

00:36:08 --> 00:36:11

sense of Iman and the closeness to the

00:36:11 --> 00:36:13

Sharia. Now we talked about apostasy, we talked

00:36:13 --> 00:36:16

about blasphemy. Obviously, there's multiple issues. One thing

00:36:16 --> 00:36:17

we have to talk about, Sheikh, it's really

00:36:17 --> 00:36:19

sensitive, but it needs to be done.

00:36:21 --> 00:36:22

Marriage and gender,

00:36:22 --> 00:36:25

one of the most sensitive topics of our

00:36:25 --> 00:36:26

times. And we have

00:36:26 --> 00:36:27

strong feelings

00:36:28 --> 00:36:30

from the side of many of our sisters,

00:36:30 --> 00:36:32

from the side of many of our brothers.

00:36:32 --> 00:36:34

We have the rise of radical feminism. We

00:36:34 --> 00:36:36

have the rise of the red pill and,

00:36:36 --> 00:36:37

you know, alpha masculinity.

00:36:38 --> 00:36:40

It's just a whole bunch of stuff going

00:36:40 --> 00:36:43

on here. So, let's try to have some

00:36:43 --> 00:36:43

Insha'Allah

00:36:43 --> 00:36:46

deconstruction of this sensitive topic.

00:36:46 --> 00:36:48

Do you believe that Islam

00:36:49 --> 00:36:51

has come with specific gender roles?

00:36:53 --> 00:36:55

No. Of course. Yes. They've asked about specific

00:36:55 --> 00:36:57

gender roles, and no no one can argue

00:36:57 --> 00:36:58

about this.

00:36:59 --> 00:37:00

But like I said,

00:37:00 --> 00:37:03

the the, you know, your understanding

00:37:03 --> 00:37:04

may not be necessarily

00:37:05 --> 00:37:07

what Islam is about. There is a spectrum

00:37:07 --> 00:37:08

of,

00:37:08 --> 00:37:09

different,

00:37:10 --> 00:37:11

interpretations,

00:37:11 --> 00:37:13

that that you have to be aware of

00:37:13 --> 00:37:15

the spectrum. That is the that is knowing

00:37:15 --> 00:37:17

the disagreement between the scholars. It will give

00:37:17 --> 00:37:19

you this broadness,

00:37:20 --> 00:37:23

of your horizons and your your your approach

00:37:23 --> 00:37:25

to things. So you have you have to

00:37:25 --> 00:37:26

know

00:37:26 --> 00:37:28

what Islam says.

00:37:28 --> 00:37:29

And,

00:37:29 --> 00:37:31

when Islam says more than one thing, that

00:37:31 --> 00:37:32

is basically

00:37:33 --> 00:37:36

we have different interpretations, and no one can

00:37:36 --> 00:37:36

can

00:37:37 --> 00:37:38

say, Mayan is Islam.

00:37:39 --> 00:37:41

There there are matters of agreement between the

00:37:41 --> 00:37:44

scholars and then we can comfortably say, this

00:37:44 --> 00:37:45

is what Islam says.

00:37:46 --> 00:37:47

But oftentimes,

00:37:47 --> 00:37:48

there are disagreements.

00:37:49 --> 00:37:51

And in this case, you can't say this

00:37:51 --> 00:37:53

is what Islam says. You know,

00:37:53 --> 00:37:55

When we have this discussion, the Supreme Court

00:37:55 --> 00:37:56

talked about abortion,

00:37:58 --> 00:38:00

you you should not be saying this is

00:38:00 --> 00:38:02

what Islam says. Islam says so many things

00:38:02 --> 00:38:03

about abortion.

00:38:05 --> 00:38:07

So when you say that

00:38:07 --> 00:38:08

my interpretation

00:38:08 --> 00:38:09

is Islam,

00:38:09 --> 00:38:12

I think that this is just self deluded,

00:38:13 --> 00:38:14

self conceited,

00:38:15 --> 00:38:16

too arrogant.

00:38:16 --> 00:38:17

So

00:38:17 --> 00:38:19

before we get to the the, you know,

00:38:19 --> 00:38:21

specific issues, can you give us I know

00:38:21 --> 00:38:23

you have an entire book, by the way.

00:38:23 --> 00:38:24

He has an entire book,

00:38:24 --> 00:38:27

Sheikh Hadham has an entire book on gender

00:38:27 --> 00:38:30

roles and gender interactions, right? Yeah. So can

00:38:30 --> 00:38:32

you summarize in just a few minutes some

00:38:32 --> 00:38:34

of the main points that you believe,

00:38:34 --> 00:38:36

Islam has come with, that we can definitively

00:38:36 --> 00:38:40

categorically state that of the roles of a

00:38:40 --> 00:38:41

man in Islam and of the roles of

00:38:41 --> 00:38:43

woman in Islam. So in a in a

00:38:43 --> 00:38:44

nutshell.

00:38:45 --> 00:38:47

Okay. So so so one of the things

00:38:47 --> 00:38:49

that Islam clearly,

00:38:50 --> 00:38:50

basically

00:38:51 --> 00:38:53

prescribes here is that

00:38:53 --> 00:38:55

there will be some degree of

00:38:56 --> 00:38:56

responsibility

00:38:57 --> 00:39:00

and authority for the man in in within

00:39:00 --> 00:39:01

the household.

00:39:06 --> 00:39:08

So that's the verse 34 in.

00:39:09 --> 00:39:10

So men have,

00:39:11 --> 00:39:12

and

00:39:13 --> 00:39:15

here is the problem that we fall in

00:39:15 --> 00:39:15

sometimes

00:39:16 --> 00:39:17

when, you know

00:39:17 --> 00:39:19

I would like to be an Islam a

00:39:19 --> 00:39:22

Muslim apologist. You know, I understand the apologetics

00:39:22 --> 00:39:25

a little bit differently. Apologists apologetics

00:39:25 --> 00:39:28

or being a Muslim apologist is not about

00:39:28 --> 00:39:29

apologizing

00:39:29 --> 00:39:30

on behalf of Allah.

00:39:31 --> 00:39:33

No. It's a, you know, the the word

00:39:33 --> 00:39:34

comes from defense.

00:39:35 --> 00:39:36

To to put like a systematic

00:39:36 --> 00:39:37

defense

00:39:38 --> 00:39:40

or to put together a systematic defense

00:39:41 --> 00:39:44

for, you know, your your dean or your

00:39:44 --> 00:39:47

your particular doctrines or

00:39:48 --> 00:39:50

so the apologia

00:39:51 --> 00:39:53

that comes from the apologia and how, you

00:39:53 --> 00:39:54

know, Socrates,

00:39:56 --> 00:39:56

basically,

00:39:58 --> 00:39:59

it was

00:40:00 --> 00:40:01

Plato calling

00:40:01 --> 00:40:02

the Socrates'

00:40:02 --> 00:40:04

defense of himself

00:40:04 --> 00:40:05

in

00:40:05 --> 00:40:06

the court,

00:40:07 --> 00:40:07

Apollosia.

00:40:08 --> 00:40:09

So this is where it comes from. It

00:40:09 --> 00:40:11

it is to defend you, your deen. It

00:40:11 --> 00:40:12

is not to apologize,

00:40:13 --> 00:40:15

on behalf of Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala. Allah

00:40:15 --> 00:40:16

does not need anyone to apologize

00:40:17 --> 00:40:19

on his behalf. Of course not.

00:40:19 --> 00:40:23

But anyway, but what Islamic Muslim apologists often

00:40:23 --> 00:40:24

do is that

00:40:24 --> 00:40:27

sometimes when they are not guided, when they

00:40:27 --> 00:40:29

are not grounded in Islamic knowledge

00:40:30 --> 00:40:31

and where they're trying to be a little

00:40:31 --> 00:40:32

too hasty

00:40:33 --> 00:40:35

to conform to circumstantial

00:40:35 --> 00:40:35

variables,

00:40:36 --> 00:40:38

they can do, like,

00:40:39 --> 00:40:42

sort of detrimental patchwork where they can

00:40:42 --> 00:40:45

try to sort of patch different value systems

00:40:45 --> 00:40:48

in a way that results in inequity,

00:40:49 --> 00:40:49

injustice,

00:40:50 --> 00:40:50

eventually.

00:40:51 --> 00:40:52

So if you say,

00:40:52 --> 00:40:54

for instance, that the is

00:40:56 --> 00:40:57

not about

00:40:57 --> 00:41:01

authority whatsoever. It is simply about responsibility.

00:41:02 --> 00:41:03

Whoever said that responsibility

00:41:08 --> 00:41:10

basically have

00:41:11 --> 00:41:13

obligations put on them without corresponding rights?

00:41:14 --> 00:41:16

Whoever said that you could be the president

00:41:16 --> 00:41:17

of a country and have responsibilities

00:41:18 --> 00:41:19

only and have no rights?

00:41:20 --> 00:41:23

What sense does is there is no sense

00:41:23 --> 00:41:24

in that whatsoever.

00:41:25 --> 00:41:25

So

00:41:27 --> 00:41:28

then we have to have,

00:41:28 --> 00:41:29

like,

00:41:29 --> 00:41:30

we have to have,

00:41:31 --> 00:41:32

basically,

00:41:32 --> 00:41:34

a moderate truly moderate understanding

00:41:35 --> 00:41:38

of what that concept is about, that Puwama

00:41:38 --> 00:41:39

is about. There's

00:41:40 --> 00:41:40

there's responsibility

00:41:41 --> 00:41:42

and

00:41:42 --> 00:41:43

authority

00:41:43 --> 00:41:45

at the same time. It's

00:41:46 --> 00:41:47

you know, profit,

00:41:48 --> 00:41:48

basically,

00:41:49 --> 00:41:50

is linked to,

00:41:51 --> 00:41:51

liability.

00:41:52 --> 00:41:53

The it's it's always like this.

00:41:55 --> 00:41:57

These concepts go hand in hand.

00:41:57 --> 00:41:59

So now the the the,

00:41:59 --> 00:42:01

we have to agree

00:42:01 --> 00:42:03

that it means both responsibility

00:42:03 --> 00:42:04

and,

00:42:04 --> 00:42:05

authority.

00:42:05 --> 00:42:06

But

00:42:06 --> 00:42:07

but now,

00:42:08 --> 00:42:10

for for instance, in,

00:42:11 --> 00:42:12

some people think that,

00:42:13 --> 00:42:15

there is a particular

00:42:16 --> 00:42:19

arrangement that that is that is called Islamic

00:42:19 --> 00:42:21

for for the household for instance. Can women

00:42:21 --> 00:42:22

have careers?

00:42:22 --> 00:42:23

Well, nowadays,

00:42:27 --> 00:42:29

the problem is many people think that all

00:42:29 --> 00:42:31

the changes in their reality

00:42:32 --> 00:42:33

are caused by,

00:42:34 --> 00:42:35

basically,

00:42:35 --> 00:42:37

the trickle down effect of,

00:42:38 --> 00:42:38

philosophy

00:42:39 --> 00:42:42

and thought and stuff like this, and you

00:42:42 --> 00:42:43

can push back

00:42:43 --> 00:42:44

by,

00:42:45 --> 00:42:46

counter philosophies,

00:42:47 --> 00:42:49

counter thoughts. No. That's not true.

00:42:50 --> 00:42:50

You know,

00:42:50 --> 00:42:52

technological advancements

00:42:52 --> 00:42:55

have caused a lot more changes. So the

00:42:55 --> 00:42:56

changes in our reality

00:42:57 --> 00:42:57

owe more

00:42:58 --> 00:43:00

to Newton than they owe to Voltaire.

00:43:01 --> 00:43:04

They owe more to technological advancement. A nice

00:43:04 --> 00:43:05

way to phrase it. I'm gonna quote that,

00:43:05 --> 00:43:07

Sheikh, if you don't mind. Yeah. They owe

00:43:07 --> 00:43:10

more to technological advancement than the To intellectual

00:43:10 --> 00:43:12

thinkers. To intellect yeah. Yeah.

00:43:13 --> 00:43:15

And and and science affected philosophy

00:43:15 --> 00:43:17

in the last 200 years. I changed the

00:43:17 --> 00:43:19

rules. More than more than philosophy affected science.

00:43:21 --> 00:43:23

So things, you know,

00:43:23 --> 00:43:26

the industrial revolution, you know, slavery

00:43:27 --> 00:43:29

And they have been banned after industrial revolution.

00:43:29 --> 00:43:29

Colonialism,

00:43:30 --> 00:43:31

slavery. There are so many things that changed

00:43:31 --> 00:43:34

in our reality Mhmm. Not because of, you

00:43:34 --> 00:43:36

know, intellectuals,

00:43:36 --> 00:43:38

or the trickle down of philosophy or because

00:43:38 --> 00:43:39

of

00:43:39 --> 00:43:40

real

00:43:40 --> 00:43:41

tangible

00:43:42 --> 00:43:42

changes

00:43:44 --> 00:43:45

in reality. Yeah.

00:43:46 --> 00:43:47

In in people's reality.

00:43:47 --> 00:43:48

So

00:43:48 --> 00:43:49

now,

00:43:50 --> 00:43:51

in the past,

00:43:51 --> 00:43:54

and that's a problem that our Muslim women

00:43:54 --> 00:43:55

also need to understand.

00:43:55 --> 00:43:58

That it was not the tyranny of men

00:43:58 --> 00:44:01

that kept them from realizing their potential.

00:44:02 --> 00:44:03

It was just not doable.

00:44:04 --> 00:44:07

Like, you know, nowadays women have close to

00:44:07 --> 00:44:08

the earning potential of men.

00:44:09 --> 00:44:12

Right? Mhmm. Not not exactly there but very

00:44:12 --> 00:44:12

close.

00:44:13 --> 00:44:15

Many women have, like, a higher earning potential.

00:44:16 --> 00:44:19

In many fields in many fields, they they

00:44:19 --> 00:44:22

have equal earning potential or even higher earning

00:44:22 --> 00:44:25

potential. But generally speaking, they they they're not

00:44:25 --> 00:44:27

quite there. You know? So the CEOs of

00:44:27 --> 00:44:28

the Fortune 500 companies

00:44:29 --> 00:44:31

are mainly men. You know, you know, the

00:44:31 --> 00:44:32

wealthiest

00:44:32 --> 00:44:35

100 people are mostly men, etcetera, etcetera.

00:44:36 --> 00:44:38

So it's they're not there yet, and they

00:44:38 --> 00:44:39

may never be there.

00:44:40 --> 00:44:42

But in the past

00:44:42 --> 00:44:43

in the past,

00:44:43 --> 00:44:46

it it was not, like, basically,

00:44:46 --> 00:44:47

like a

00:44:47 --> 00:44:50

conspiracy, like, a mere conspiracy against them to

00:44:50 --> 00:44:53

deprive them of earning potential. What were what

00:44:53 --> 00:44:55

were the jobs that were available? Blacksmithing,

00:44:56 --> 00:44:56

fighting,

00:44:57 --> 00:44:58

you know,

00:44:59 --> 00:45:00

who

00:45:01 --> 00:45:03

Generally, for them, it was nurses and teaching

00:45:03 --> 00:45:05

Yeah. That was in most of them. Yeah.

00:45:05 --> 00:45:08

So so there were many professions that they

00:45:08 --> 00:45:10

were not basically suitable for.

00:45:11 --> 00:45:12

They were not suitable for.

00:45:14 --> 00:45:16

They were not going to be and fighting

00:45:16 --> 00:45:18

was not basically like nowadays,

00:45:18 --> 00:45:20

like you press a button and you drop

00:45:20 --> 00:45:21

a bomb.

00:45:21 --> 00:45:23

No. It was like it required a lot

00:45:23 --> 00:45:24

of physical,

00:45:24 --> 00:45:25

strength.

00:45:26 --> 00:45:26

So

00:45:27 --> 00:45:28

so now

00:45:28 --> 00:45:30

you have the women who think that there

00:45:30 --> 00:45:32

was like a male conspiracy and it's time

00:45:32 --> 00:45:33

for them to rebel

00:45:34 --> 00:45:36

and you have the men who don't recognize

00:45:37 --> 00:45:40

that things have changed and women now have

00:45:41 --> 00:45:44

the earning potential that men have. So nowadays,

00:45:46 --> 00:45:48

here is what happens within the Muslim family.

00:45:49 --> 00:45:49

So

00:45:50 --> 00:45:50

the

00:45:51 --> 00:45:52

they get like,

00:45:52 --> 00:45:53

2 working

00:45:55 --> 00:45:58

people get married and Islam does not

00:45:58 --> 00:45:59

prohibit women

00:46:00 --> 00:46:00

from,

00:46:01 --> 00:46:02

from working.

00:46:03 --> 00:46:06

You know, the hadith of Khaled Jaber when

00:46:06 --> 00:46:09

she went out Yeah. Basically during her, like,

00:46:09 --> 00:46:12

during her period Yeah. She went out to

00:46:12 --> 00:46:14

tend to her orchard. Yeah. And she was

00:46:14 --> 00:46:16

she was told to go back home, and

00:46:16 --> 00:46:17

then she went to the prophet and he

00:46:17 --> 00:46:18

said, you know,

00:46:23 --> 00:46:26

go out into your orchard maybe you'll be

00:46:26 --> 00:46:27

able to give charity or to take care

00:46:27 --> 00:46:28

of yourself

00:46:30 --> 00:46:30

So

00:46:31 --> 00:46:33

so Islam does not and and Asma used

00:46:33 --> 00:46:35

to carry the, you know, the

00:46:36 --> 00:46:36

the,

00:46:38 --> 00:46:39

father first Yeah. Yeah.

00:46:40 --> 00:46:42

Zubairah's horse and for for 3 miles

00:46:43 --> 00:46:45

back and forth forth and so on. So

00:46:45 --> 00:46:47

Islam did not prevent women from working outside

00:46:47 --> 00:46:48

but Islam

00:46:48 --> 00:46:51

wanted 2 things and it's clear for them

00:46:51 --> 00:46:53

to prioritize their family

00:46:53 --> 00:46:57

and for them to work within environments conducive

00:46:58 --> 00:47:01

to their values. Modesty is is a signature

00:47:01 --> 00:47:02

characteristic

00:47:03 --> 00:47:06

of of Islam. So Islam wanted these women

00:47:06 --> 00:47:09

to observe these two things, prioritize their family

00:47:09 --> 00:47:09

and,

00:47:10 --> 00:47:12

work in environments that are conducive to maintaining

00:47:13 --> 00:47:14

their Islamic values.

00:47:16 --> 00:47:18

Having said that, if you have 2 family

00:47:18 --> 00:47:19

physicians,

00:47:20 --> 00:47:22

get married, for instance,

00:47:23 --> 00:47:23

and,

00:47:24 --> 00:47:26

they they bring in the same income.

00:47:27 --> 00:47:28

And and then

00:47:29 --> 00:47:32

because we've been been trying to to tell

00:47:32 --> 00:47:33

women that Islam,

00:47:34 --> 00:47:36

basically gives you everything,

00:47:36 --> 00:47:37

modernity

00:47:37 --> 00:47:38

gives you and more.

00:47:39 --> 00:47:41

So we are trying to say to them,

00:47:42 --> 00:47:45

his money is his and yours, and your

00:47:45 --> 00:47:46

money is yours only.

00:47:47 --> 00:47:50

Okay? So she expects that he will be

00:47:50 --> 00:47:52

spending, and she will be saving her income.

00:47:53 --> 00:47:55

And she may even go as far as

00:47:55 --> 00:47:58

expecting that he would be spending and splitting

00:47:58 --> 00:48:00

his savings and she could save all of

00:48:00 --> 00:48:01

her income.

00:48:01 --> 00:48:03

And then she expects that he would also

00:48:04 --> 00:48:06

basically, since she goes out to work,

00:48:07 --> 00:48:08

that he would also be flexible

00:48:09 --> 00:48:11

because she'll come back tired and she will

00:48:11 --> 00:48:13

not be able to make dinner. So he

00:48:13 --> 00:48:15

would should be flexible enough to make his

00:48:15 --> 00:48:16

own dinner and stuff like this.

00:48:17 --> 00:48:19

And he should pay for childcare

00:48:19 --> 00:48:21

and and all of that.

00:48:22 --> 00:48:22

Does

00:48:23 --> 00:48:23

you know,

00:48:26 --> 00:48:27

what nonsense is

00:48:28 --> 00:48:30

that? How could this be considered equitable

00:48:30 --> 00:48:31

in any way?

00:48:32 --> 00:48:34

And then at the same time you will

00:48:34 --> 00:48:36

have the man who expects that,

00:48:37 --> 00:48:39

he could be married to his wife and

00:48:39 --> 00:48:41

she could stay home,

00:48:41 --> 00:48:42

be a homemaker,

00:48:43 --> 00:48:45

and give up her career, give up advancing

00:48:45 --> 00:48:46

her career,

00:48:46 --> 00:48:49

be a homemaker, and after 30 years, he

00:48:49 --> 00:48:51

can just divorce her and she about her

00:48:51 --> 00:48:53

for 30 years ago. Yeah. Yes. He he

00:48:53 --> 00:48:55

he can divorce her and give her the

00:48:55 --> 00:48:56

deferred,

00:48:56 --> 00:48:59

dowry, which, you know, sometimes there is the

00:48:59 --> 00:49:00

3rd part of the dowry, sometimes there is

00:49:00 --> 00:49:02

not. But he just can divorce her and

00:49:02 --> 00:49:03

give her for

00:49:04 --> 00:49:06

her, like, during her waiting period and give

00:49:06 --> 00:49:09

her, you know, not not necessarily

00:49:09 --> 00:49:11

because it's controversial between the.

00:49:12 --> 00:49:14

That's it. You know? So so she she

00:49:14 --> 00:49:15

goes out.

00:49:16 --> 00:49:18

Okay. So so so now the problem is

00:49:19 --> 00:49:20

her niece

00:49:20 --> 00:49:21

would never want

00:49:22 --> 00:49:23

to repeat that story.

00:49:24 --> 00:49:26

Mhmm. Her niece would never want her her

00:49:26 --> 00:49:27

daughter

00:49:27 --> 00:49:30

will never want to repeat that story and

00:49:30 --> 00:49:32

to be a homemaker and to prioritize to

00:49:32 --> 00:49:33

prioritize her family.

00:49:34 --> 00:49:37

What is the difference between now and 500

00:49:37 --> 00:49:39

years back? Now they have the same earning

00:49:39 --> 00:49:41

potential or close to the same earning potential

00:49:41 --> 00:49:42

as men.

00:49:42 --> 00:49:44

She would be seeing her,

00:49:44 --> 00:49:47

like, friends, you know, like, from high school

00:49:48 --> 00:49:49

who now has a career,

00:49:49 --> 00:49:51

who is, independent financially,

00:49:53 --> 00:49:56

and comparing herself to her.

00:49:57 --> 00:49:57

So

00:49:58 --> 00:49:59

now

00:49:59 --> 00:50:02

we have to figure out how to adapt

00:50:02 --> 00:50:03

to these new realities

00:50:04 --> 00:50:06

and how to adapt to these new realities

00:50:06 --> 00:50:07

without

00:50:08 --> 00:50:11

changing compromise, like, without devastating

00:50:11 --> 00:50:12

our value system.

00:50:13 --> 00:50:15

So there has you know, men and women

00:50:15 --> 00:50:17

have to complement each other still.

00:50:18 --> 00:50:18

They basically

00:50:19 --> 00:50:20

they they can't be,

00:50:22 --> 00:50:23

sort of

00:50:24 --> 00:50:25

equal in all regards because

00:50:26 --> 00:50:26

it wouldn't

00:50:27 --> 00:50:28

make sense because,

00:50:29 --> 00:50:32

or that there can there cannot be similarity

00:50:32 --> 00:50:34

in in their roles in all regards

00:50:35 --> 00:50:37

because how do we complement each other if

00:50:37 --> 00:50:39

you're not different? You you need to be

00:50:39 --> 00:50:41

different, have different roles so that you complement

00:50:41 --> 00:50:43

each other. So we will have to be

00:50:43 --> 00:50:45

mindful of this. We will have to be

00:50:45 --> 00:50:47

mindful of the qawamah of the man to

00:50:47 --> 00:50:48

want him to be kawab,

00:50:49 --> 00:50:51

to want him to be responsible. You have

00:50:51 --> 00:50:52

to give him some authority

00:50:52 --> 00:50:56

to demand to ask of him to be

00:50:56 --> 00:50:57

responsible

00:50:58 --> 00:51:00

for his family. But that doesn't have to

00:51:00 --> 00:51:01

be the same type of qiwama that was

00:51:01 --> 00:51:03

practiced a 100 years ago. It it is

00:51:03 --> 00:51:04

it it

00:51:05 --> 00:51:07

it it has to be re envisioned.

00:51:08 --> 00:51:10

It has to be basically reconceptualized,

00:51:11 --> 00:51:12

but

00:51:12 --> 00:51:14

he has to still be the head of

00:51:14 --> 00:51:15

the household.

00:51:15 --> 00:51:18

He has he still has the right to

00:51:18 --> 00:51:18

obedience.

00:51:19 --> 00:51:21

But in what you know, here's here's what

00:51:21 --> 00:51:22

it is.

00:51:22 --> 00:51:23

Obedience happens

00:51:24 --> 00:51:27

in in different circles and sheikh Attaiyah Sakhra

00:51:27 --> 00:51:28

has a very great he was like a

00:51:28 --> 00:51:29

mufti in Egypt

00:51:30 --> 00:51:31

He has a great book on on on

00:51:31 --> 00:51:32

the Muslim family

00:51:32 --> 00:51:35

where he says that obedience that there are

00:51:35 --> 00:51:36

different circles for obedience.

00:51:37 --> 00:51:40

There is one at the center of obedience

00:51:40 --> 00:51:42

that is basically obedience when it comes to

00:51:42 --> 00:51:43

the marital relationship.

00:51:44 --> 00:51:45

There is obedience

00:51:46 --> 00:51:47

that basically pertains

00:51:48 --> 00:51:50

to marital life in general.

00:51:50 --> 00:51:54

And then there is a wider circle of

00:51:54 --> 00:51:54

obedience

00:51:54 --> 00:51:58

which is obedience unless he asks for like

00:51:58 --> 00:51:59

basically

00:51:59 --> 00:52:02

obedience period unless he asks for something that

00:52:02 --> 00:52:03

is nonsensical,

00:52:04 --> 00:52:05

non purposeful,

00:52:06 --> 00:52:06

non halal,

00:52:07 --> 00:52:10

you know, not ma'ruf. Ma'ruf does not only

00:52:10 --> 00:52:12

mean halal but it also means sensible. So

00:52:12 --> 00:52:14

if he asks for something that's nonsensical,

00:52:15 --> 00:52:15

non purposeful,

00:52:16 --> 00:52:17

or non halal

00:52:18 --> 00:52:19

then there's no obedience.

00:52:20 --> 00:52:20

But

00:52:21 --> 00:52:21

at least

00:52:22 --> 00:52:22

at least

00:52:23 --> 00:52:25

you have to preserve the right to obedience

00:52:25 --> 00:52:27

when it comes to marital life.

00:52:28 --> 00:52:29

Marital life. That circle.

00:52:31 --> 00:52:32

And at the very least

00:52:33 --> 00:52:36

when it comes to the marital relationship Yeah.

00:52:36 --> 00:52:38

And and then, you know, certainly there are

00:52:38 --> 00:52:40

certain hadith that talk about, you know, asking

00:52:40 --> 00:52:41

for her permission

00:52:41 --> 00:52:44

to to go out and to, you know,

00:52:44 --> 00:52:47

not bringing in people into his his, his

00:52:47 --> 00:52:50

home without his permission. Even that can, you

00:52:50 --> 00:52:53

know, can can be nuanced and can have

00:52:53 --> 00:52:54

different interpretations.

00:52:55 --> 00:52:57

Is that because it is his house, he

00:52:57 --> 00:52:57

owns it,

00:52:58 --> 00:53:00

or it is because he's the husband?

00:53:01 --> 00:53:03

So the Imam Anawi seems to think that

00:53:03 --> 00:53:05

it is because he owns that house. So

00:53:05 --> 00:53:06

what if she

00:53:06 --> 00:53:08

co owns it? Oh my god. She pays

00:53:08 --> 00:53:09

her You're gonna get into a lot of

00:53:09 --> 00:53:10

trouble for this

00:53:11 --> 00:53:13

guy. No. But but but I'm just saying

00:53:13 --> 00:53:13

that,

00:53:14 --> 00:53:16

you know, so there there are different circles,

00:53:16 --> 00:53:17

and then

00:53:18 --> 00:53:19

it is

00:53:19 --> 00:53:20

unlikely

00:53:20 --> 00:53:21

unlikely

00:53:22 --> 00:53:25

that you would expect people to observe or

00:53:25 --> 00:53:28

you expect women to observe the largest of

00:53:28 --> 00:53:30

those circles. They would be recommended.

00:53:30 --> 00:53:32

So, Sheikh, I have a different,

00:53:33 --> 00:53:34

way of explaining which is ending in the

00:53:34 --> 00:53:37

same result, and that is when Allah says

00:53:37 --> 00:53:37

in the Quran,

00:53:40 --> 00:53:43

This is the general rule. Rijal or qiwam.

00:53:43 --> 00:53:44

There is a level of authority. There's no

00:53:44 --> 00:53:47

question about this. Right? Then Allah gives 2

00:53:47 --> 00:53:47

ilan.

00:53:48 --> 00:53:51

Bima fadbar Allahu ba'alumaal about wabi ma'in faqoonamwadeem.

00:53:51 --> 00:53:54

And the first of them signifies the physical

00:53:54 --> 00:53:56

in particular. If you look at the books

00:53:56 --> 00:53:56

of Tafsir,

00:53:57 --> 00:53:58

it is the fact that the man is

00:53:58 --> 00:54:00

hunting, the man is protecting, the man is

00:54:00 --> 00:54:02

at war, So the man is physically

00:54:03 --> 00:54:03

protective.

00:54:04 --> 00:54:06

And so obviously because he's physically more qualified,

00:54:07 --> 00:54:08

Allah has given him.

00:54:08 --> 00:54:09

Number 2,

00:54:09 --> 00:54:11

There are also intellectual differences between the way

00:54:11 --> 00:54:13

women think and the way men think can.

00:54:13 --> 00:54:15

More conducive for leadership. Prioritize.

00:54:15 --> 00:54:16

Agreed.

00:54:16 --> 00:54:19

Sort of yes. And the second one is

00:54:20 --> 00:54:21

which is financial. Now

00:54:22 --> 00:54:22

modern

00:54:23 --> 00:54:24

the modern world we live in

00:54:25 --> 00:54:27

has chipped away and eroded

00:54:27 --> 00:54:29

the need for that physical prowess

00:54:30 --> 00:54:31

and the

00:54:32 --> 00:54:35

economic disparity between the two genders. This is

00:54:35 --> 00:54:37

It is what it is. The modern world

00:54:37 --> 00:54:38

has taken away

00:54:39 --> 00:54:41

the need for that physical disparity. Now in

00:54:41 --> 00:54:44

the office, everybody's exactly the same. Intellectually, in

00:54:44 --> 00:54:46

terms of computer programming, whatever, it's really many

00:54:46 --> 00:54:48

women are really the same in this regard

00:54:48 --> 00:54:50

by and large. And the economic,

00:54:51 --> 00:54:53

power that is now, you know, given to

00:54:53 --> 00:54:56

both genders, it has also stripped away once

00:54:56 --> 00:54:57

upon a time, the financial

00:54:59 --> 00:55:00

responsibilities

00:55:00 --> 00:55:02

and the financial preference the man had. So

00:55:02 --> 00:55:04

when both of the ilal have been chipped

00:55:04 --> 00:55:05

away,

00:55:05 --> 00:55:06

understandably,

00:55:06 --> 00:55:08

the result which is qiwama is also gonna

00:55:08 --> 00:55:10

be chipped away. It's gonna have to be

00:55:10 --> 00:55:12

rethought. It's not something we

00:55:13 --> 00:55:15

are happy about. It's not something we're embracing,

00:55:15 --> 00:55:17

but it is a reality we have to

00:55:17 --> 00:55:19

deal with. And here's my point. In and

00:55:19 --> 00:55:22

of itself, to rethink through the

00:55:23 --> 00:55:23

implications

00:55:24 --> 00:55:24

of qiwama

00:55:25 --> 00:55:27

is not against the Sharara as long as

00:55:27 --> 00:55:28

is maintained.

00:55:28 --> 00:55:31

Right? And so the nuances of what entails

00:55:32 --> 00:55:33

is cultural.

00:55:34 --> 00:55:35

Is

00:55:35 --> 00:55:36

but the manifestation

00:55:36 --> 00:55:37

of

00:55:37 --> 00:55:39

will change from time to place. So the

00:55:39 --> 00:55:42

way that my grandfather and grandmother interacted together,

00:55:42 --> 00:55:44

you know, in the 1800 in in British

00:55:44 --> 00:55:45

India, whatever,

00:55:45 --> 00:55:46

is not

00:55:46 --> 00:55:49

binding on how myself and my wife, much

00:55:49 --> 00:55:51

less my daughter and her husband in the

00:55:51 --> 00:55:53

future, are gonna have to interact. So this

00:55:53 --> 00:55:55

is the way I phrased it. Any disagreement

00:55:55 --> 00:55:56

with that phrasing?

00:55:57 --> 00:55:59

I would just say that the we we

00:55:59 --> 00:56:01

have to maintain the qurama, and we we

00:56:01 --> 00:56:05

also cannot basically restrict Bima Faddar Allahabadahumma Allahabadah

00:56:05 --> 00:56:06

to

00:56:06 --> 00:56:09

set of qualities that that we

00:56:09 --> 00:56:10

assume

00:56:11 --> 00:56:13

because of the qualities that Allah had favored

00:56:13 --> 00:56:15

them with. Allah had favored men with certain

00:56:15 --> 00:56:18

qualities. We cannot limit them to physical strength.

00:56:19 --> 00:56:21

We we this

00:56:21 --> 00:56:24

will continue to be there. Will it it

00:56:24 --> 00:56:25

will stand.

00:56:25 --> 00:56:29

Yes. I agree with, economic disparity that, you

00:56:29 --> 00:56:30

know, has been

00:56:31 --> 00:56:33

almost clearly eliminated

00:56:34 --> 00:56:35

or or totally eliminated.

00:56:35 --> 00:56:36

But

00:56:37 --> 00:56:38

the will stay.

00:56:41 --> 00:56:41

So will

00:56:42 --> 00:56:44

stay. But again, at the same time,

00:56:44 --> 00:56:46

because she is now contributing,

00:56:48 --> 00:56:50

to to the sort of financial,

00:56:51 --> 00:56:52

stability of the family,

00:56:53 --> 00:56:53

then

00:56:54 --> 00:56:56

it will not be the same

00:56:56 --> 00:57:00

as it was 200 years ago. But we

00:57:00 --> 00:57:02

have to maintain the family structure.

00:57:02 --> 00:57:05

We have to maintain that structure. We have

00:57:05 --> 00:57:07

to maintain the the husband as the head

00:57:07 --> 00:57:08

of the household

00:57:08 --> 00:57:10

because of the necessity

00:57:11 --> 00:57:14

of having a head for any functioning,

00:57:15 --> 00:57:16

successful institution.

00:57:17 --> 00:57:17

Mhmm.

00:57:18 --> 00:57:19

There has to be some

00:57:19 --> 00:57:21

a company, a state.

00:57:21 --> 00:57:24

There has to be eventually some if you

00:57:24 --> 00:57:26

will have constant fighting,

00:57:27 --> 00:57:28

constant negotiation

00:57:29 --> 00:57:30

over all things

00:57:30 --> 00:57:34

without decision making being granted to any party,

00:57:34 --> 00:57:36

then that's a prescription for destruction

00:57:37 --> 00:57:38

of the family and

00:57:39 --> 00:57:40

the subsequent destruction

00:57:40 --> 00:57:41

of the society.

00:57:42 --> 00:57:43

Men have to

00:57:44 --> 00:57:44

understand

00:57:45 --> 00:57:46

that

00:57:46 --> 00:57:48

there that things are different.

00:57:49 --> 00:57:51

They they do have the close to the

00:57:51 --> 00:57:54

same earning potential than men. And if you

00:57:54 --> 00:57:57

marry her and divorce her after 40 years

00:57:57 --> 00:57:59

and expect her to take her suitcase and

00:57:59 --> 00:58:00

walk out,

00:58:01 --> 00:58:03

and then expect her niece and daughter to

00:58:03 --> 00:58:04

want to repeat that

00:58:04 --> 00:58:05

story,

00:58:06 --> 00:58:07

you you are deluded.

00:58:08 --> 00:58:10

So Islam would come in now

00:58:10 --> 00:58:11

and say,

00:58:11 --> 00:58:13

no. We will protect that woman.

00:58:14 --> 00:58:15

We will give her,

00:58:15 --> 00:58:16

as you know

00:58:17 --> 00:58:19

this was a part of the decisions of

00:58:19 --> 00:58:21

AMJA and the AMJA family code,

00:58:21 --> 00:58:24

which which I really recommend for people to

00:58:24 --> 00:58:26

read AMJA's family code because it it is

00:58:27 --> 00:58:29

very traditional, very orthodox, but at the same

00:58:29 --> 00:58:30

time, very cognizant

00:58:31 --> 00:58:33

of the changes in in our reality when

00:58:33 --> 00:58:35

it comes to custody, when it comes to

00:58:35 --> 00:58:37

maintenance, and things of that nature.

00:58:38 --> 00:58:40

So so we will take the concept of

00:58:40 --> 00:58:43

for instance, which is the bereavement gift, consolation

00:58:43 --> 00:58:45

gift, alimony, whatever it is that,

00:58:46 --> 00:58:47

you wanna translate it as,

00:58:48 --> 00:58:50

but you take that concept of mohah and

00:58:51 --> 00:58:53

you take the the scholarly position that

00:58:54 --> 00:58:57

is for all diversity, for all diversity, not

00:58:57 --> 00:58:57

only

00:58:58 --> 00:59:01

for those who have not had, like, a,

00:59:02 --> 00:59:02

you know,

00:59:04 --> 00:59:06

the, you know, like a

00:59:07 --> 00:59:07

designated

00:59:08 --> 00:59:11

you know? So so and and and Islam,

00:59:12 --> 00:59:14

there there is the before the be between

00:59:14 --> 00:59:16

the contract and

00:59:19 --> 00:59:21

or the consummation of marriage and after the

00:59:21 --> 00:59:22

consummation of marriage.

00:59:23 --> 00:59:25

Between the contract and the consummation of marriage,

00:59:26 --> 00:59:28

if she had a designated sabak, she gets

00:59:28 --> 00:59:30

half the designated sabak. If she doesn't have

00:59:30 --> 00:59:33

a designated sabak, she gets the murta. Everybody

00:59:33 --> 00:59:34

agrees on that murta

00:59:35 --> 00:59:37

except that even Malik who considered it still

00:59:37 --> 00:59:39

to be recommended, not obligatory.

00:59:40 --> 00:59:42

But then after the consummation of marriage, they

00:59:42 --> 00:59:44

disagree whether divorcees

00:59:44 --> 00:59:45

will have,

00:59:46 --> 00:59:48

a a or not. Be because they have

00:59:48 --> 00:59:49

their.

00:59:49 --> 00:59:52

The so some, of the scholars said they

00:59:52 --> 00:59:54

are not entitled to muta'ah. But there is

00:59:55 --> 00:59:57

this position which is in

00:59:57 --> 01:00:00

agreement with the apparent meaning of the Quran.

01:00:02 --> 01:00:03

Yes. Well, for

01:00:03 --> 01:00:05

the the the the generalized

01:00:05 --> 01:00:08

unqualified statement of the Quran that

01:00:08 --> 01:00:09

the will have

01:00:09 --> 01:00:11

a cancellation gift.

01:00:12 --> 01:00:14

Which will vary from time to place. In

01:00:14 --> 01:00:17

the culture. Yes. Exactly. Yeah. So in this

01:00:17 --> 01:00:19

case, we can employ this,

01:00:20 --> 01:00:21

and we can take the position of the

01:00:21 --> 01:00:23

scholars who say it's for all, and

01:00:24 --> 01:00:26

we can compensate this woman.

01:00:28 --> 01:00:30

And there will be a panel of scholars

01:00:30 --> 01:00:33

who would put in consideration the duration of

01:00:33 --> 01:00:35

marriage, his contribution to the marriage, and and

01:00:35 --> 01:00:35

so on,

01:00:36 --> 01:00:36

and

01:00:37 --> 01:00:38

the the the cause behind the divorce. So

01:00:38 --> 01:00:40

in other words, to be very specific then,

01:00:40 --> 01:00:42

and, like, we're both in absolute agreement as

01:00:42 --> 01:00:43

usual, which is a bit terrifying all the

01:00:43 --> 01:00:45

time, mashaAllah, always coming. In other words, Sheikh,

01:00:45 --> 01:00:47

there is no astaghfirullah

01:00:47 --> 01:00:49

rejection of the shari'a, there is no,

01:00:49 --> 01:00:52

changing of Allah's akham if we say in

01:00:52 --> 01:00:53

modern times,

01:00:54 --> 01:00:55

for some couples,

01:00:56 --> 01:00:58

a type of, you know, alimony or a

01:00:58 --> 01:00:58

type of,

01:00:59 --> 01:01:01

settlement that is done in which a divorce

01:01:01 --> 01:01:04

lady will get more than her if she

01:01:04 --> 01:01:06

hasn't been working, and if the husband has

01:01:06 --> 01:01:09

no legitimate need to divorce her, and now

01:01:09 --> 01:01:11

she has no other source of income, that

01:01:11 --> 01:01:12

it is permissible

01:01:13 --> 01:01:13

to

01:01:14 --> 01:01:16

Quranically, there's nothing, you know, change being done

01:01:16 --> 01:01:19

to actually allow for more than what perhaps

01:01:19 --> 01:01:21

our earlier scholars would have allowed for.

01:01:21 --> 01:01:23

And if if you think what our earlier

01:01:23 --> 01:01:26

scholars had allowed for, they say, adnaha,

01:01:27 --> 01:01:30

saubu alaha khadim. Yes. So the the least

01:01:30 --> 01:01:32

is basically to give her a garment, and,

01:01:32 --> 01:01:34

the highest is to give her a servant.

01:01:35 --> 01:01:37

Well, do do you mean what a servant

01:01:37 --> 01:01:39

means? Yeah. It's quite expensive. If if if

01:01:39 --> 01:01:40

you actually

01:01:40 --> 01:01:41

give her enough

01:01:42 --> 01:01:44

to hire a servant for the rest of

01:01:44 --> 01:01:44

her life,

01:01:45 --> 01:01:47

that's that's quite expensive. But again, share what

01:01:47 --> 01:01:49

we have Anyway but but Yeah. But you

01:01:49 --> 01:01:51

but but then this is a statement that

01:01:51 --> 01:01:54

this is a scholarly statement. But then we

01:01:54 --> 01:01:56

can adapt to our new realities,

01:01:57 --> 01:01:59

and we can figure out how much

01:02:00 --> 01:02:02

what is fair for this woman. And so

01:02:02 --> 01:02:04

What is fair to to to basically give

01:02:04 --> 01:02:06

her financial security for the rest of her

01:02:06 --> 01:02:07

life

01:02:07 --> 01:02:08

and

01:02:08 --> 01:02:11

what would be fair so that her niece

01:02:11 --> 01:02:12

and her daughter

01:02:13 --> 01:02:15

will think, no. She was not wronged.

01:02:16 --> 01:02:18

She still have financial security.

01:02:18 --> 01:02:21

I could still dedicate myself to homemaking.

01:02:21 --> 01:02:22

I could still prioritize

01:02:23 --> 01:02:26

the family. I can sacrifice advancing my career

01:02:26 --> 01:02:27

for my family.

01:02:28 --> 01:02:31

So in order for a woman to enter

01:02:31 --> 01:02:34

entertain, in order for and you're not talking

01:02:34 --> 01:02:34

about,

01:02:35 --> 01:02:35

like

01:02:36 --> 01:02:37

a small group of women

01:02:38 --> 01:02:38

that

01:02:39 --> 01:02:40

would basically,

01:02:41 --> 01:02:43

would not entertain all of this or would

01:02:43 --> 01:02:45

not be concerned about financial security in the

01:02:45 --> 01:02:47

future, would not be concerned about no. You're

01:02:47 --> 01:02:50

talking about the masses. The Sharia is not

01:02:50 --> 01:02:51

for,

01:02:51 --> 01:02:54

you know, your your small group that that

01:02:54 --> 01:02:55

resides

01:02:55 --> 01:02:57

in your small echo echo chamber

01:02:57 --> 01:02:58

online

01:02:59 --> 01:03:00

on social media.

01:03:00 --> 01:03:02

The sharia is meant for

01:03:03 --> 01:03:05

all the Muslims out there. Jayed, so what

01:03:05 --> 01:03:07

we have, Sheikhara, as usual is,

01:03:08 --> 01:03:11

knee jerk reactions on both sides. You have

01:03:11 --> 01:03:12

those that are

01:03:12 --> 01:03:15

acquiescing to modern notions of feminism

01:03:15 --> 01:03:18

in which they do believe these simplistic ideas

01:03:18 --> 01:03:18

that,

01:03:19 --> 01:03:21

even if they're working, even if they're bringing

01:03:21 --> 01:03:23

money to the table, even if they have

01:03:23 --> 01:03:25

this notion that, okay, the man has all

01:03:25 --> 01:03:25

responsibility,

01:03:26 --> 01:03:28

and I don't owe him anything including kwama,

01:03:29 --> 01:03:31

and everything that I earn is absolutely mine.

01:03:31 --> 01:03:33

And no marriage is gonna function like this.

01:03:33 --> 01:03:35

Then you have on the flip side,

01:03:35 --> 01:03:38

some of our our brothers who are wanting

01:03:38 --> 01:03:38

to

01:03:38 --> 01:03:41

find cultural values of a century ago and

01:03:41 --> 01:03:43

assuming that they are Islamic.

01:03:43 --> 01:03:45

And each one feeds into the stereotype of

01:03:45 --> 01:03:47

the other. What we are both arguing is

01:03:47 --> 01:03:48

that

01:03:48 --> 01:03:51

there is nothing wrong with taking our situation

01:03:51 --> 01:03:53

into account and understanding

01:03:53 --> 01:03:54

that it is

01:03:55 --> 01:03:57

natural and normal that qiwama

01:03:58 --> 01:04:00

will be rethought even as we still affirm

01:04:00 --> 01:04:03

there is something called qiwama, and that financial

01:04:03 --> 01:04:03

obligations

01:04:04 --> 01:04:05

and financial responsibilities

01:04:06 --> 01:04:07

and,

01:04:07 --> 01:04:09

marital or or or divorce situations

01:04:10 --> 01:04:11

can be changed in light of modern times.

01:04:11 --> 01:04:13

In fact, what we are arguing, and I

01:04:13 --> 01:04:15

think you're all on similar with, we meaning

01:04:15 --> 01:04:18

the Fiqh Council and Amjad, is that we

01:04:18 --> 01:04:20

should enforce an Islamic prenuptial agreement.

01:04:21 --> 01:04:23

Where in a prenuptial agreement, we actually have

01:04:23 --> 01:04:26

percentages put in such that it becomes a

01:04:26 --> 01:04:29

for the Nikah, right? So this is one

01:04:29 --> 01:04:30

of the ways we can get out of

01:04:30 --> 01:04:32

it. So Sheryl, before we wrap up inshallah,

01:04:32 --> 01:04:35

one other again sensitive issue, and that is

01:04:36 --> 01:04:37

gender interactions.

01:04:38 --> 01:04:39

And in particular,

01:04:40 --> 01:04:42

the notion of of, you know,

01:04:42 --> 01:04:44

living in the West as we do.

01:04:45 --> 01:04:47

We have our sisters, you know, going pretty

01:04:47 --> 01:04:48

much everywhere,

01:04:49 --> 01:04:51

dressed inshallah. The point is they are dressed

01:04:51 --> 01:04:51

appropriately.

01:04:52 --> 01:04:54

We'll get to what if they're inappropriately dressed,

01:04:54 --> 01:04:55

meaning they're not fully wearing the hijab. That's

01:04:55 --> 01:04:57

what we mean by that in this particular

01:04:57 --> 01:04:57

circumstance.

01:04:58 --> 01:05:00

But then when it comes to our Islamic

01:05:00 --> 01:05:01

gatherings, our Islamic conferences,

01:05:03 --> 01:05:05

to what level of strictness are we required

01:05:05 --> 01:05:06

to apply?

01:05:07 --> 01:05:09

Must we bring about complete segregation

01:05:10 --> 01:05:12

in our Islamic gatherings? Because there's arguments both

01:05:12 --> 01:05:14

ways. As you're aware, and to summarize for

01:05:14 --> 01:05:15

our viewers,

01:05:15 --> 01:05:17

those that are on the stricter side have

01:05:17 --> 01:05:19

a legitimate argument like, hey, this is our

01:05:19 --> 01:05:20

space.

01:05:20 --> 01:05:22

Let us control to the max, and let

01:05:22 --> 01:05:24

us have full segregation.

01:05:25 --> 01:05:27

And on the other side, you have the

01:05:27 --> 01:05:29

I would say some pragmatists who say, hey,

01:05:29 --> 01:05:31

look, many of our brothers and sisters, they're

01:05:31 --> 01:05:32

not to that level.

01:05:32 --> 01:05:34

And if we were to be ultra strict,

01:05:34 --> 01:05:36

they're not coming and listening to the lectures.

01:05:36 --> 01:05:38

And so we are not going to enforce

01:05:38 --> 01:05:40

that type of complete segregation.

01:05:41 --> 01:05:43

Rather, we have an understanding that, yeah, this

01:05:43 --> 01:05:45

is an Islamic culture and environment. Nothing overtly

01:05:45 --> 01:05:47

haram taking place. So we're gonna be a

01:05:47 --> 01:05:49

little bit on the Lakser side. Fact of

01:05:49 --> 01:05:51

the matter is the majority of conventions

01:05:52 --> 01:05:54

are actually all mainstream conventions are on that

01:05:54 --> 01:05:56

side. So you have the critics who then

01:05:56 --> 01:05:59

come along and argue these aren't Islamic

01:05:59 --> 01:06:02

because they're not enforcing and there are non

01:06:02 --> 01:06:04

hijabi sisters coming along. And the speakers like

01:06:04 --> 01:06:06

myself and yourself attend these conventions.

01:06:07 --> 01:06:07

And

01:06:08 --> 01:06:11

from our perspective, we feel that there's no

01:06:11 --> 01:06:13

question hijab is mandatory. We feel that

01:06:14 --> 01:06:17

there are bigger priorities at this stage because

01:06:17 --> 01:06:19

many of the people in the audience

01:06:19 --> 01:06:22

are not at a level where they're going

01:06:22 --> 01:06:23

to be embracing

01:06:23 --> 01:06:27

certain aspects of Islam. So we have this

01:06:27 --> 01:06:28

back and forth between

01:06:29 --> 01:06:33

those critics who accuse us and others of

01:06:33 --> 01:06:35

selling out or of watering down or of

01:06:35 --> 01:06:36

not enforcing

01:06:36 --> 01:06:37

versus

01:06:38 --> 01:06:40

our understanding, and it could be wrong here

01:06:40 --> 01:06:41

where

01:06:41 --> 01:06:43

we feel this is not the time and

01:06:43 --> 01:06:46

place when we have 10,000 Muslims, the majority

01:06:46 --> 01:06:47

of whom are not even praying 5 times

01:06:47 --> 01:06:49

a day, the majority of whom are all

01:06:49 --> 01:06:51

in major sin, this is not the time

01:06:51 --> 01:06:51

to nitpick

01:06:52 --> 01:06:54

something that is not on the top 5,

01:06:54 --> 01:06:55

10 of our list here.

01:06:55 --> 01:06:57

So little bit of thoughts about this issue

01:06:57 --> 01:06:58

of segregation,

01:06:59 --> 01:07:01

especially when it comes to Islamic conventions and

01:07:01 --> 01:07:01

lectures.

01:07:05 --> 01:07:06

Well, so so,

01:07:07 --> 01:07:09

the book that you pointed out, the or

01:07:09 --> 01:07:10

you

01:07:10 --> 01:07:13

referred to the book that I wrote on

01:07:13 --> 01:07:15

gender interaction, it's male female interaction in Islam.

01:07:16 --> 01:07:17

I had a picture of,

01:07:18 --> 01:07:21

like, a classroom, like, where men and women

01:07:21 --> 01:07:23

coexist in the same classroom.

01:07:23 --> 01:07:24

And

01:07:24 --> 01:07:26

I have the speaker, which was,

01:07:27 --> 01:07:28

supposedly a man,

01:07:29 --> 01:07:30

facing the men, and the women

01:07:31 --> 01:07:33

were to the side a little bit. They

01:07:33 --> 01:07:34

are still able to see the speaker.

01:07:36 --> 01:07:37

There is no partition between them and the

01:07:37 --> 01:07:39

speaker, but they were a little bit to

01:07:39 --> 01:07:42

the side where the speaker is not facing

01:07:42 --> 01:07:42

the women,

01:07:43 --> 01:07:44

all the time.

01:07:44 --> 01:07:47

You know, I think that people would be

01:07:47 --> 01:07:48

entitled to critique,

01:07:49 --> 01:07:49

you know,

01:07:51 --> 01:07:53

you know, like, a a young,

01:07:53 --> 01:07:54

male

01:07:54 --> 01:07:55

preacher or speaker

01:07:56 --> 01:07:57

sitting across,

01:07:59 --> 01:07:59

from,

01:08:00 --> 01:08:00

like,

01:08:01 --> 01:08:02

well good appearing

01:08:03 --> 01:08:05

woman. All relative, Shaitan. We're gonna push back

01:08:05 --> 01:08:07

here. It's all relative. It's all subjective.

01:08:08 --> 01:08:09

All these adjectives you're using.

01:08:10 --> 01:08:12

But but at the same again, at the

01:08:12 --> 01:08:14

same time, the these Who's gonna define these

01:08:14 --> 01:08:15

things? Recognizable.

01:08:15 --> 01:08:16

Right? Recognizable,

01:08:18 --> 01:08:21

things. Our scholars have always talked about about

01:08:21 --> 01:08:22

these concepts.

01:08:23 --> 01:08:24

Our,

01:08:25 --> 01:08:25

you know,

01:08:26 --> 01:08:27

forget about it.

01:08:28 --> 01:08:29

Not completely,

01:08:30 --> 01:08:32

not well dressed. Not,

01:08:34 --> 01:08:36

like, for for forget about what appearing,

01:08:38 --> 01:08:39

because

01:08:40 --> 01:08:42

a young man sitting across

01:08:42 --> 01:08:44

from a young woman for 1 and a

01:08:44 --> 01:08:45

half hours,

01:08:46 --> 01:08:48

I think it's it's a setup that's a

01:08:48 --> 01:08:49

little bit

01:08:49 --> 01:08:50

problematic.

01:08:50 --> 01:08:53

Like if you have a young man sitting

01:08:53 --> 01:08:55

here and a young woman sitting there

01:08:55 --> 01:08:57

and they're basically,

01:08:58 --> 01:09:00

face to face for 1 and a half

01:09:00 --> 01:09:02

hours, and you're telling him lower your gaze.

01:09:02 --> 01:09:03

Hold the.

01:09:03 --> 01:09:06

Wait. So you say in just the 2

01:09:06 --> 01:09:07

of them? Or you're talking about No. I'm

01:09:07 --> 01:09:08

talking about

01:09:08 --> 01:09:10

even if it is, like, 2

01:09:11 --> 01:09:11

200 people.

01:09:12 --> 01:09:14

But he's sitting right across

01:09:14 --> 01:09:15

from,

01:09:15 --> 01:09:17

like, a young woman,

01:09:19 --> 01:09:20

that may not be

01:09:21 --> 01:09:21

properly,

01:09:22 --> 01:09:22

dressed.

01:09:23 --> 01:09:25

And the he's sitting across from her for,

01:09:25 --> 01:09:25

like,

01:09:26 --> 01:09:29

2 hours, 1 hour, 45 minutes, half an

01:09:29 --> 01:09:30

hour.

01:09:31 --> 01:09:33

That is not conducive to lowering your gaze.

01:09:33 --> 01:09:35

Like, doesn't Allah say, you know,

01:09:37 --> 01:09:40

say to the believing men to lower their

01:09:40 --> 01:09:42

gaze? Like, is is this arrangement

01:09:43 --> 01:09:44

conducive

01:09:44 --> 01:09:46

to lowering your gaze?

01:09:46 --> 01:09:49

What what what is the lowering your gaze

01:09:49 --> 01:09:50

about then?

01:09:52 --> 01:09:54

If we're not going to to

01:09:55 --> 01:09:56

try to

01:09:57 --> 01:09:58

make arrangements

01:09:59 --> 01:10:00

for this to happen.

01:10:01 --> 01:10:04

So, like, you're you're 25 years old. She's

01:10:04 --> 01:10:07

25 years old. You're sitting across from each

01:10:07 --> 01:10:10

other for, like, 45 minutes,

01:10:10 --> 01:10:11

and then supposedly,

01:10:12 --> 01:10:14

you're lowering your gaze. Or how is that

01:10:14 --> 01:10:16

happening? So, Shazrat,

01:10:16 --> 01:10:18

one example which is, I think, definitely on

01:10:18 --> 01:10:20

the more extreme side. Yeah. Let's be more

01:10:20 --> 01:10:21

But okay. Okay.

01:10:22 --> 01:10:23

So so

01:10:23 --> 01:10:26

in in in in my in the drawing

01:10:26 --> 01:10:27

that I have in the book, I have

01:10:27 --> 01:10:29

the women to one side. There is no

01:10:29 --> 01:10:31

partition between the speaker and the women

01:10:32 --> 01:10:34

exactly like you had it yesterday at Epic.

01:10:35 --> 01:10:37

Didn't we have the seminar? There's a guy

01:10:37 --> 01:10:38

seminar yesterday at Epic.

01:10:39 --> 01:10:40

I was facing

01:10:40 --> 01:10:43

the men. The women were to the side.

01:10:43 --> 01:10:45

Mister Dior. The women were a little bit

01:10:45 --> 01:10:47

to the side. I think that if a

01:10:47 --> 01:10:50

woman was given that lecture, I would have

01:10:50 --> 01:10:52

placed her table across from the women. That's

01:10:52 --> 01:10:54

exactly how we do it at Armitage. And

01:10:54 --> 01:10:56

the men would be to the side

01:10:57 --> 01:10:58

so that the arrangement

01:10:59 --> 01:11:00

is

01:11:00 --> 01:11:01

sensitive

01:11:01 --> 01:11:02

to our values

01:11:03 --> 01:11:05

and to the concept of lowering your gaze.

01:11:06 --> 01:11:07

And in that picture that I had in

01:11:07 --> 01:11:09

the book, I had a partition

01:11:10 --> 01:11:12

And I wrote next to the partition are

01:11:12 --> 01:11:13

optional. Mhmm.

01:11:14 --> 01:11:14

In

01:11:15 --> 01:11:17

you know, I go to different places.

01:11:17 --> 01:11:20

Sometimes they have the partition. Sometimes I don't

01:11:20 --> 01:11:22

tell them remove it. Sometimes they don't. I

01:11:22 --> 01:11:23

don't tell them put it.

01:11:24 --> 01:11:26

At Masjid where I where I usually conduct

01:11:26 --> 01:11:27

my classes,

01:11:27 --> 01:11:28

they have we have that partition

01:11:29 --> 01:11:31

between men and women. But again, at the

01:11:31 --> 01:11:33

same time, there's no partition between me and

01:11:33 --> 01:11:36

the sisters. I am sitting here facing the

01:11:36 --> 01:11:38

men. The sisters are a little bit Personally,

01:11:38 --> 01:11:40

Sheikh, I agree with you. This is the

01:11:40 --> 01:11:41

ideal and that's what we do in our

01:11:41 --> 01:11:45

masjid. Personally, however, even this is too liberal

01:11:45 --> 01:11:46

for some people,

01:11:46 --> 01:11:48

and it is too strict for others as

01:11:48 --> 01:11:50

you're aware. But the Masjid of the prophet

01:11:50 --> 01:11:52

did not have a physical partition between men

01:11:52 --> 01:11:52

and women.

01:11:53 --> 01:11:56

Yeah. The argument given by the modern critics

01:11:56 --> 01:11:56

is that

01:11:57 --> 01:11:59

our modern women are not dressed appropriately,

01:12:00 --> 01:12:02

all the time compared to the Sahabi'at. But

01:12:02 --> 01:12:04

Sheikh, let's get now to the more

01:12:05 --> 01:12:06

explicit question, and that is the conventions that

01:12:06 --> 01:12:09

are beyond our control. Mhmm. You're invited to

01:12:09 --> 01:12:10

these mainstream ones, so am I.

01:12:11 --> 01:12:13

And you're well aware that

01:12:14 --> 01:12:17

there is no segregation in 5,000 people, 10000

01:12:17 --> 01:12:20

people. There is not even a organic, I

01:12:20 --> 01:12:21

e.

01:12:22 --> 01:12:24

Yeah. Sure. There are, you know, certain women

01:12:24 --> 01:12:26

that just sit together, certain men, But overall

01:12:26 --> 01:12:28

in the audience, the I don't think I

01:12:28 --> 01:12:30

don't think that we we that we're required

01:12:30 --> 01:12:32

to have physical segregation. I think that there

01:12:32 --> 01:12:34

should be basically

01:12:34 --> 01:12:38

self motivated segregation because the the speakers and

01:12:38 --> 01:12:39

the Muslim preachers

01:12:39 --> 01:12:43

need to be teaching people about Islamic

01:12:43 --> 01:12:44

modesty

01:12:45 --> 01:12:47

and appropriate Islamic behavior

01:12:47 --> 01:12:49

so that there will be self enforced,

01:12:50 --> 01:12:53

not complete segregation, but self enforced

01:12:53 --> 01:12:54

modesty,

01:12:55 --> 01:12:57

you know, where the the women would choose

01:12:57 --> 01:12:59

to sit next to women, and the men

01:12:59 --> 01:13:01

would choose to sit next to men,

01:13:01 --> 01:13:03

and there would not be inappropriate

01:13:03 --> 01:13:06

interaction. You're saying the preachers would teach this?

01:13:06 --> 01:13:08

The the My But this is the shortcoming

01:13:08 --> 01:13:11

of This is Yes. The preachers,

01:13:12 --> 01:13:13

of course, must teach

01:13:13 --> 01:13:15

this. But And I could be wrong.

01:13:15 --> 01:13:17

But in these massive conventions,

01:13:18 --> 01:13:19

the priority

01:13:20 --> 01:13:21

at that point in time for these 5,

01:13:21 --> 01:13:23

10000 but we know who they are. They're

01:13:23 --> 01:13:25

the ones that don't come to the masjid

01:13:25 --> 01:13:27

right there. They're the ones that for the

01:13:27 --> 01:13:29

priority for them is not to be taught

01:13:29 --> 01:13:32

segregation at this stage. The priority for them

01:13:32 --> 01:13:33

is to make them feel the 'izzah for

01:13:33 --> 01:13:35

the ummah. The priority for them is to

01:13:35 --> 01:13:37

feel a sense of Khushua and Iman, to

01:13:37 --> 01:13:39

come closer to Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala, to

01:13:39 --> 01:13:41

love their religion. There are people that are

01:13:41 --> 01:13:43

leaving the faith at these types of conventions.

01:13:43 --> 01:13:43

So

01:13:44 --> 01:13:45

my philosophy,

01:13:45 --> 01:13:47

these large mainstream conventions that I'm not in

01:13:47 --> 01:13:49

charge of, where I'm in charge of we

01:13:49 --> 01:13:50

have the segregation,

01:13:50 --> 01:13:52

we don't bring up issues of segregation.

01:13:53 --> 01:13:54

We don't bring up issues of the hijab.

01:13:54 --> 01:13:56

Not because I don't believe in them, but

01:13:56 --> 01:13:57

because I don't think this is the right

01:13:57 --> 01:14:00

time or place or forum to do that.

01:14:00 --> 01:14:02

These are the times where, as I said,

01:14:02 --> 01:14:03

we bring them a sense of Izzah for

01:14:03 --> 01:14:05

their ummah and a sense of pride of

01:14:05 --> 01:14:08

being Muslim. Right? Now, the critics allege

01:14:08 --> 01:14:08

that

01:14:09 --> 01:14:10

this is a

01:14:11 --> 01:14:14

watering down and a betrayal of the Amana

01:14:14 --> 01:14:16

that is given unto us. And the response,

01:14:16 --> 01:14:17

I simply say

01:14:18 --> 01:14:21

I have given multiple lectures in my Masjid

01:14:21 --> 01:14:23

about hijab, and about women's roles and issues,

01:14:23 --> 01:14:24

and whatnot. And this is for those that

01:14:24 --> 01:14:27

are now more interested in these topics. Right?

01:14:27 --> 01:14:30

So, do you You yourself, when you go

01:14:30 --> 01:14:31

And I know you go to these conventions.

01:14:31 --> 01:14:34

You yourself do not talk about segregation on

01:14:34 --> 01:14:35

those platforms.

01:14:37 --> 01:14:38

I'm

01:14:39 --> 01:14:40

Not to put you on the spot. Sorry.

01:14:40 --> 01:14:42

I don't I don't go to those conventions,

01:14:43 --> 01:14:45

but, like, you know, I rarely

01:14:46 --> 01:14:48

go, to to those conventions, but I don't

01:14:48 --> 01:14:50

blame people who go to those conventions.

01:14:50 --> 01:14:53

And I don't basically decide for them what

01:14:53 --> 01:14:55

they believe to be,

01:14:55 --> 01:14:57

the right discourse

01:14:57 --> 01:14:59

for at at at that time.

01:14:59 --> 01:15:01

I just have one reservation

01:15:02 --> 01:15:03

about people who

01:15:04 --> 01:15:05

use the priority

01:15:05 --> 01:15:07

card or the priorities

01:15:08 --> 01:15:11

card. They never address those issues. Like someone

01:15:11 --> 01:15:13

who's an imam in a masjid, for instance,

01:15:14 --> 01:15:15

for 25 years,

01:15:16 --> 01:15:16

and,

01:15:17 --> 01:15:19

he has never addressed those issues

01:15:20 --> 01:15:22

because it is not a priority. It's not

01:15:23 --> 01:15:25

Fair enough. You have to you at,

01:15:26 --> 01:15:28

like you have to help. We're talking we

01:15:28 --> 01:15:29

talked about Erdogan,

01:15:31 --> 01:15:33

before in a in a previous discussion with

01:15:33 --> 01:15:33

you.

01:15:34 --> 01:15:36

So you have to say to yourself, it

01:15:36 --> 01:15:38

has been 20 years.

01:15:38 --> 01:15:41

I we I took this congregation

01:15:41 --> 01:15:44

from point a to point b, but you

01:15:44 --> 01:15:46

can't basically be,

01:15:47 --> 01:15:50

standstill in you know, and and say that

01:15:50 --> 01:15:52

it it is not the right time. It's

01:15:52 --> 01:15:54

been 20 years. Like, what have you done?

01:15:55 --> 01:15:57

You know, you you need to be concerned

01:15:57 --> 01:16:01

about Islamic manners, Islamic etiquettes, Islamic way of

01:16:01 --> 01:16:03

life. You need to be Great. Okay. Basically,

01:16:05 --> 01:16:06

you you need to consider

01:16:07 --> 01:16:07

those things.

01:16:08 --> 01:16:10

But when will you do it? How will

01:16:10 --> 01:16:11

you do it? You know,

01:16:12 --> 01:16:12

where

01:16:13 --> 01:16:15

these are questions. These are you you will

01:16:15 --> 01:16:17

have to figure out the answers to those

01:16:17 --> 01:16:20

questions, and no one can dictate

01:16:20 --> 01:16:22

to a particular preacher

01:16:22 --> 01:16:24

when, how, and where,

01:16:24 --> 01:16:26

to do these things. But they just need

01:16:26 --> 01:16:28

to be concerned and they need to be

01:16:28 --> 01:16:29

doing something about it. Yeah.

01:16:30 --> 01:16:32

Yeah. Okay. So inshallah, let us summarize and

01:16:32 --> 01:16:33

wrap up inshallah.

01:16:33 --> 01:16:36

So we were talking about gradualism and pragmatism,

01:16:37 --> 01:16:40

and the slow, application of and,

01:16:42 --> 01:16:44

in this regard is that,

01:16:45 --> 01:16:47

there seems to be enough leeway

01:16:48 --> 01:16:48

and,

01:16:49 --> 01:16:49

permissibility

01:16:50 --> 01:16:53

to have a long term vision that is

01:16:53 --> 01:16:56

implemented in smaller steps. And this applies not

01:16:56 --> 01:16:59

only the Muslim majority lands, but also in,

01:16:59 --> 01:17:02

situations like here in America where we feel

01:17:02 --> 01:17:02

the,

01:17:04 --> 01:17:06

does require many steps to get to the

01:17:06 --> 01:17:08

final goal. Any final comments you have about

01:17:08 --> 01:17:11

this issue of pragmatism and, and and gradualism?

01:17:12 --> 01:17:14

No. I I believe,

01:17:15 --> 01:17:17

that this this this is the case, and

01:17:17 --> 01:17:19

I believe that, there should always be priorities.

01:17:20 --> 01:17:22

And I believe that, people who are not

01:17:22 --> 01:17:23

praying,

01:17:23 --> 01:17:25

it may not be a priority

01:17:25 --> 01:17:29

to talk to them about Islamic etiquettes of,

01:17:29 --> 01:17:32

England and to to address their,

01:17:33 --> 01:17:36

greater like, like, if you have cancer, you're

01:17:36 --> 01:17:38

probably not going to be that concerned

01:17:38 --> 01:17:39

about,

01:17:40 --> 01:17:40

like,

01:17:40 --> 01:17:43

a benign mole on your hand or something.

01:17:43 --> 01:17:44

So,

01:17:45 --> 01:17:47

there is there is there is certainly must

01:17:47 --> 01:17:48

be a prioritization

01:17:49 --> 01:17:49

and

01:17:50 --> 01:17:51

prudent approach,

01:17:51 --> 01:17:52

to

01:17:52 --> 01:17:53

and

01:17:53 --> 01:17:55

to preaching and to dawah in general

01:17:58 --> 01:17:58

is necessary,

01:17:59 --> 01:18:01

is is vital for our success

01:18:02 --> 01:18:03

everywhere,

01:18:03 --> 01:18:06

men in Muslim majority lands or Muslim or

01:18:06 --> 01:18:10

wherever we are as, Muslim minorities, but particularly

01:18:10 --> 01:18:10

so,

01:18:11 --> 01:18:14

where where there are Muslim minorities because,

01:18:14 --> 01:18:15

those Muslims,

01:18:17 --> 01:18:18

should not be pushed away,

01:18:19 --> 01:18:22

of course. They should be accommodated. They should

01:18:22 --> 01:18:24

be welcomed. That they should not

01:18:24 --> 01:18:26

be pushed away because it is very easy

01:18:26 --> 01:18:27

for them

01:18:27 --> 01:18:29

to get lost. Mhmm.

01:18:30 --> 01:18:32

And and when we do so, this

01:18:32 --> 01:18:35

not a reformation of the religion whatsoever, and

01:18:35 --> 01:18:37

contrary to what many of the critics alleged.

01:18:37 --> 01:18:37

This is simply

01:18:38 --> 01:18:40

applying the wisdom within the Sharia that is

01:18:40 --> 01:18:43

allowed by Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala demonstrated by

01:18:43 --> 01:18:46

our salaf and our rurama throughout history.

01:18:46 --> 01:18:48

And, when we learn and study, we understand

01:18:48 --> 01:18:50

this is what the Sharia itself allows us

01:18:50 --> 01:18:53

to do inshaAllah. With this Jazakumullah kesha for

01:18:53 --> 01:18:55

spending so much time. May Allah bless me.

01:18:55 --> 01:18:55

And

01:18:56 --> 01:18:58

InshaAllah, we hope to have further conversations.

01:18:59 --> 01:19:01

Viewers, if you have specific topics you're interested

01:19:01 --> 01:19:03

in, more than happy to continue these conversations

01:19:03 --> 01:19:05

with our Sheikh. And inshaAllah, we will see

01:19:05 --> 01:19:06

you until next time.

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