Yousuf Raza – Social Responsibility of Educational Institutes
AI: Summary ©
The speakers discuss the importance of research and development in the field of computer science, the need for people to take care of their research and development, and the need for a strong personal identity. They emphasize the need for students to create a culture of student success, work in a research-based field, and have a strong personal identity. The speakers also discuss the challenges of dealing with power and struggles with love and jealousy, and the need for a society where a doctor is required to be open to experiences and have a healthy dialogue. They also mention the need for a society where a doctor is required to be open to experiences and have a healthy dialogue.
AI: Summary ©
Yes, bismillah salatu wassalam wa ala rasulullah.
Assalamu alaikum everybody.
Assalamu alaikum.
program.
program.
Yusuf, we have a guest today.
um um um um um um computer sciences
and then he did his postdoc from Virginia.
strangely uh for the past couple of years,
he got interested in curriculum development pedagogical practices
while working at Namal College, Miyawali.
Okay.
And for that, they had a new program,
which was designed in the last two years.
He was in that committee.
And during that time, we kept in touch
with him.
Of course.
So, we called him today because there were
some issues that he saw in our pedagogical
practices, in our curriculums, in our educational institutes,
which are related to the topics that are
dear to us, you and me.
So, human growth, personal growth, personality development, personal
relationships, which overlap a lot with that.
Okay.
So, we asked them to come and tell
us that why is it important to go
to medical college.
Because you and I know that our only
aim to go to medical college was to
become such doctors who can diagnose the patient
well, treat him well and pay him well.
There was no other purpose of our going
to medical college.
Neither did our family tell us anything else,
nor did our teachers tell us anything else,
nor did we read any other book other
than this.
Exactly.
The main point of the agenda was how
to develop a better diagnostic algorithm in your
mind.
Absolutely right.
So, Dr. Junaid Akhtar, we will ask him
why he has come to such a weird
kind of work from computer science.
And probably these computer science curriculums are based
on philosophy.
There is something like this in between.
Something like that.
Yes, it is like that.
Okay, let's ask him too.
Dr. Junaid Akhtar, Sir, Assalamu Alaikum.
Walaikum Assalam.
How are you?
Alhamdulillah.
You listen.
I think you should take off your headphones.
It was better before.
Let's go.
So, first of all, thank you so much
for having me.
No problem.
I am very psyched.
Very psyched about psychbatic.
We are on it.
So, what is happening here?
So, Dr. Junaid, whatever is happening here, we
will share our old episodes with you.
We would like to ask you something.
You did a PhD in CS.
Then you did a post-doc.
And then while teaching CS, what happened?
First, what were those precipitating events that you
got interested in curriculum development and pedagogy?
Whatever you did there, we will come to
that later.
First, what were those experiences because of which
you had to come here?
Yes, it was a long and winding road.
It was not like one fine day I
woke up and said that it is necessary
to do this work.
But before I joined NAMAL, I had started
my PhD program in a particular direction when
I chanced upon a certain individual.
His name is Dr. Basit Kaushal.
He was out of the blue.
I had never taken a course in social
sciences.
So, I was doing my PhD in LUMS.
So, before every semester, the course list used
to float.
So, in LUMS, you can audit outside your
domain by going to any course.
And anyway, who has to stop PhD students?
They can go anywhere at any time.
So, that course had nothing to do with
what I was doing in PhD or computer
science.
But that was a personal issue of mine.
It was a course on comparative religions.
It was on monotheistic religions.
And I didn't know anything about who that
teacher was.
I had never stepped into that department.
So, I took a blind chance.
I don't know why.
But I got hooked on.
So, I took a course.
By the way, Mr. Basit Kaushal never offered
me that course after that.
But after that, I took a course on
Weber, PERS, Iqbal.
So, I took a course every semester.
Even after getting it registered.
I think by the end of the second
course, I told Dr. Basit Kaushal that I
was doing computer science since my undergrad.
Then I did computer science in my masters
in the domain of artificial intelligence.
Then I started my PhD in a certain
direction.
And here I was, absolutely hooked on to
his world.
You could say.
Which had nothing to do with computer science.
Obviously.
Now, I...
I mean, whatever prayers I give him, it's
less.
Because his advice was, after listening to my
situation, that, look, Junaid, pick up a brick,
a computer scientist comes out from the bottom.
Similarly, you pick up a brick, a philosopher
or a social scientist will come out from
the bottom.
But there are very few people who can
step into both waters.
Who can integrate computer science and philosophy meaningfully.
Believe me, that thing penetrates straight away in
the heart.
It's a hard burn in your memory forever.
So that thing happened to me, that instance.
And it made absolute sense to me at
that time.
And up till today, I think that was
the best advice that I ever received in
my life.
So then I did that.
In my PhD, Charles Sanders Peirce is an
American philosopher.
So his philosophy and computer science have an
evolutionary algorithm.
There is a special class of algorithms.
I integrated them very meaningfully.
So that's where the story began.
So along the way, I realized that the
degree I had, it was always a PhD.
But society evolves and progresses in some dimensions.
So in some dimensions, there is a decline
as well.
PhD stands for Doctorate of Philosophy.
But it has nothing to do with philosophy.
Which is very strange.
That the degree you are giving and the
fraud behind it.
It's like fraud is also like that.
When you are selling something and the product
doesn't come out.
So this fraud actually happens.
So after that, I spent some time with
Professor Peter Oakes in the postdoc.
Daljeet, before you proceed, if I may ask.
Your integration effort, how was that received by
the people of your field?
Like it's something, you know, not very common.
It wasn't common at all.
It was unique.
It was a bit of a mixed bag.
Some people get absolutely fascinated.
Some people of course say, what is this?
What is the need for this?
Because now the world is in silos.
Academia too.
So computer science doesn't need any other, even
science.
Philosophy is a distant thing.
What is the need for any other science?
So there are a lot of people like
that in computer science.
Throughout the hierarchy, from top to bottom, from
students to faculty, administration.
So there are all kinds of people everywhere.
But a lot of people are also completely
fascinated.
So after that, some Masters and Phil students
have also worked in this direction.
But for me, this thing is not so
important.
Democratically speaking, that is, how many percent of
people are impressed by it or not.
It makes sense to me.
So until today, I do this kind of
work.
Computer science needs it.
There have been some debates before.
200 years ago, 400 years ago, 500 years
ago, 2000 years ago.
Why reinvent the wheel?
If the people of computer science think that
this is the first time, this is the
processing of natural language.
So the work on language, Western linguistics, has
been done for thousands of years.
So now the people of computer science will
start doing the same thing among themselves.
Imagining that this is the first time in
the world that someone has thought of these
things.
So that would be stupid.
So moving on.
Peter Oak asked me the same question one
day.
Junaid, do you think that all your science
or a scientist close to you, all his
science and all his activities are limited inside
the lab?
Or is it possible that you have to
step outside your lab?
And you mean for the sake of your
science.
You are doing something like this in science,
but you may have to do some activities
outside the lab.
So what is in your paradigm?
Can you imagine a scientist doing this?
Or according to you, a scientist is the
one who is confined inside the lab.
So, of course, there were long conversations on
this.
And I completely agree.
I am of the opinion that he is
not a scientist who is confined inside a
box.
That is, a scientist may have to do
some politics.
He may have to do some work up
to a policy level.
In order to do good science in his
lab.
This was the most important point.
That the work has to be done inside
the lab.
But there are some obstacles.
Because of something, the work of science cannot
be good inside the lab.
You might have to step outside of the
walls of the lab.
I am doing this in the context of
your earlier question.
The work you gave in the introduction.
Why did I have to step outside of
my own field?
And then as an educationist, on the curriculum.
Or even on the faculty policy, we have
worked.
So that is exactly why.
So that the work I want to do
as a computer scientist, meaningfully.
I can get such students.
I can get such colleagues in NAMAL.
Those good people can be retained.
Can be protected.
Who want to do good work.
Otherwise, there is a formula of HEC.
In that, the one whose number of papers
have been published.
So he will become an associate.
The one who has so many will become
this.
So there are a lot of people like
that.
Unfortunately speaking.
Since HEC started giving these scholarships for PhD.
So I hope I make myself clear.
What was the reason for which.
I have to step outside of the bounds
of my computer science.
We can open it further.
So you went outside of your own field.
And you have chosen a special direction.
You have to develop the curriculum.
And that curriculum.
If we talk about it strictly.
It is not the curriculum of computer science.
Which you have developed.
The pedagogical practices that have been developed.
The teacher evaluation criteria that have been developed.
They are not of the field of computer
science.
And in some way.
If we look at it from a special
dimension.
So they actually reduce the number of papers
published per year.
So what is the reason for this?
In a way, it can be said that
you are slowing down the research.
And in a way, it can also be
said that the courses you have developed.
First tell us about those courses.
And it can be said that from these
courses.
You are a person who will take 12
courses.
Apart from that, you can go further in
your field by taking 12 CS courses.
So why should he take those 12 courses?
Yes, but can I pose two questions here?
I mean, in this direction.
Through a natural organic progression.
It's not like I picked it up one
day.
It can be said that you may have
to go beyond science.
But where should he go?
So for instance, in Pakistan.
Because the reality we live in.
So we have to be very cognizant of
that.
So we are growing in the society of
Pakistan.
There is also a university in this.
The university is fed in by students.
From a school college stream.
That is, they come to practice by doing
metric FSC.
O-Levels and A-Levels are also the
same story now.
So I have a graph in front of
my freshman class for the first semester.
You understand the number of years on the
x-axis.
Let's say x-axis from 2000 to 2020.
If we plot the marks of average FSC
on the y-axis.
Let's plot it.
So I pose this question to the students.
What do you think the graph will be?
Will it be decreasing over the years?
They say no, sir.
Because I think all of us would know
that marks are on the rise.
Inflation has come.
Just like in economics.
So there is inflation in marks too.
So this is a plot.
So it's an increasing graph.
The slope is positive.
On this plane, I plot one more graph
simultaneously.
The number of problems in Pakistan.
That too over the years.
x-axis is common.
If we plot the number of problems on
the y-axis over the years.
I ask that too.
Is it a decreasing function?
They say no, sir.
Is it a constant that all the problems
in 1947 are the same?
They say no.
Eventually, we converge.
Conversationally speaking.
They say that the students are also intelligent.
So I'm not dictating anything.
But this is their living reality.
I mean, I don't have a brain.
Problems are on the rise.
And FSC marks are also on the rise.
So then I ask them.
If the marks were to be an indicator.
That is, it would be a sign that
Pakistan is producing talented students.
Right?
So then how should the number of problems
be graphed?
So it should have been an inverse relationship.
Naturally speaking.
Because such talented people are being born who
can solve problems.
Any conscious or self-respecting nation of education
has a very big function.
Of the educational system.
And that is to produce such citizens.
Who will be able to solve the problems
of our nation's future.
Or can address.
Those people have to produce for the future.
It's about the future.
But here we are.
We are producing those people.
Who are taking the numbers forcibly.
There is no doubt about it.
It's a fact.
But they are not able to engage with
the problems.
The problems are getting more complex and serious.
So something must be amiss.
Which is.
So we have to understand that.
That is, let it go the way it
is going.
Then the situation will be more complicated.
So this is a poll.
So all the students understand this.
So then.
Those who have a crude mind.
They say that the whole system is bad.
Or corruption.
Today's narrative is corruption.
Because we are at the national level.
So they say corruption.
Yes, thank God.
He never says.
But yes.
There are some thinking students.
They reach.
I think.
Selfish individual.
Creating our educational system.
The race of numbers.
It has made the numbers prime.
Get it as you like.
You have to take as many shortcuts as
you can.
Plus.
Selfish.
The way the economy works.
That's it.
I think.
Dr. Junaid.
Hello.
Yes.
We lost you for a bit.
You're back now.
Please continue.
Sorry.
So.
A very big process.
14 years.
12 years of education.
It's a very long process.
Right.
He will inculcate some habits.
Individual.
So if the total habit is.
Okay.
Formula.
Was.
Formula.
Formula.
Total.
Training.
Formula.
Maximally fit.
Maximum.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Change.
Change.
School.
So.
Formula.
Absolutely.
So.
Formula.
Was optimally fit.
I have to adjust to.
Someone.
To an outsider's.
So.
Best fit.
So.
Market.
Business.
Formula.
Fit.
So.
Status.
The.
Support.
Training.
Training.
Honestly speaking.
To understand.
First of all.
How does this whole thing work?
Secondly.
Dissatisfied.
Some things are definitely not right.
Thirdly.
One person.
A well-educated person.
Who can imagine a better reality.
Current reality.
Not totally satisfied.
But thirdly.
A better reality can be envisioned.
But fourthly.
Because a better future does not exist yet.
In the future.
And it's in the imagination.
But he has that competency.
And this is the last one.
He has that competency.
To bring a better future.
Reality.
To bring it.
These are four things in my opinion.
Through which a well-educated person will qualify.
I told you about one poll.
I do the second poll.
My last year students.
Third year.
Senior students come to my courses.
Now imagine.
Here are the students who are in Pakistan.
Very early on.
Divergent.
Arts students.
Right.
Computer science.
Pre-engineering.
And then.
Computer science.
Again.
PhD.
For something.
Computer science.
Computer scientists.
Right.
Senior students.
And.
Without exception.
Identity.
Psychology.
Important.
Multiple identities.
Pakistan.
National.
That's one.
Identity.
Muslim.
Religious identity.
Identity.
A.
A.
I cannot.
I associate less with dogs than with.
Human beings.
Inshallah.
Identity.
Student.
Right.
Man.
Identity.
As a Pakistani.
Making.
But in my conscious and subconscious, there is
no confusion or doubt about it.
Although the government and some people are asking
for proof that you are Pakistani.
As a Muslim, I haven't done anything special.
But this identity is at least clear and
alive.
Sometimes it comes to the forefront, sometimes it
goes back.
But it's there.
But when I ask them this question, after
so much training, Have you ever pictured yourself
as a scientist?
You are becoming a scientist on your degree.
Without exception.
And they take a few minutes and then
they are honest enough to say no.
We have never pictured ourselves as a scientist.
The way we are as a weak Pakistani,
as a weak kind of identity, as a
Muslim.
But sometimes we have pictured it.
Sometimes the person has to ask that question
to himself.
But this thought came to their mind for
the first time.
That I as a scientist.
Although this is almost at the end of
their 14-16 years of education and training.
So we call the students of Madrasa bad.
And we call their system bad.
But I can bet that any student studying
in Madrasa, by the time he graduates, He
won't have this confusion that he is a
scientist.
The degree he is taking, he must have
the same identity.
And these are not just Namal's students.
I can bet on this.
So this is that fraud.
In computer science, the word scientist is still
there.
As far as the rest of the degrees
are concerned.
Whether it is psychology or whatever.
The word scientist is missing.
They would even be like, are we even
scientists?
Or is this even an implication?
So I guess from Allah's side, my life
has become a little peaceful.
Philosophy came in one, science came in the
other.
Which is my degree.
But Asim, you are trying to say something.
Dr. Junaid, when you told all this.
So you told that you used it in
between.
Whatever education we get, with that training.
Some habits are inculcated.
And a particular form of identity is also
formed.
But we think of education as a neutral
activity.
In which you are just learning something.
And your overall personality has nothing to do
with it.
So is it that our educational institutes.
Even unknowingly.
Which is even worse.
They are grooming typical type of personalities.
That you just called as selfish.
Look, selfish is one thing that is acquired.
So we are talking about habits.
And there are long-term tendencies on habits.
So selfishness is one thing.
As I told you to fit yourself on
someone's formula.
This is also a habit.
This is a long-term habit of living
and thinking.
So you just talk about getting fit everywhere.
Similarly, you talked about learning.
So the root that maximizes the numbers.
That then inculcates the Rata system from day
one.
So that's a habit.
So I don't see how this is a
value-neutral type of process.
As you are saying, this is a neutral
type of education.
This is definitely a process.
Which is not at all value-neutral.
This is giving some values and long-term
habits to a person.
And leaving them in the society.
These people will eventually become your citizens.
It's not like if you go abroad, then
some animal species will be roaming around.
These people who are from schools, colleges and
universities.
This is what you will see everywhere.
To the extent that after doing my PhD,
all the people around me are the most
educated people in the world.
Some have done it from France.
Some from Scotland, Ireland, this, that.
PhDs, postdocs, everything.
And in the domain of science.
So I'm just going to give you a
word and its meaning.
Which has gone to the stage of rapid
degeneration.
I always imagined that there are people in
science who love experiments.
I mean, apart from experiments, they don't have
any other framework in their mind.
I mean, they would think of everything in
terms of experiments.
I mean, there's hardly anything outside of it.
So for some reason, because you join an
institution, you have to take some services.
And an institution such as NAMAL, which is
in a remote area.
So there was a school for faculty there.
For the children of the faculty.
Because we have brought all our families.
And its bigger picture is that of a
knowledge city.
Which means it's not just a university, school,
college, university.
Everything will be there.
So there are a lot of children from
the local area.
And some of them are very wonderful.
I mean, far better than the children of
the faculty.
So I had the opportunity to head the
school for a year or so.
In which some things were revealed to me.
And because of this, I'm starting to come
in this direction.
The questions I told you, I thought about
it during that time.
These marks are increasing.
The fabric of society is getting worse and
worse.
So something is amiss.
So I got a chance to do some
comparison.
In Europe or the self-respecting nations.
They do all the early childhood education in
their mother tongue.
And that is, they will also do maths
as a competency.
They will do it in their mother tongue.
They will do the rest of their skills
in their mother tongue.
There is only one foreign language competency.
So it will be English somewhere.
It can be anywhere else.
Like China is taking over.
So now in many countries, children are being
taught Chinese instead of English.
As a foreign language competency.
And it's fine.
But Pakistan is one of those countries.
In which in early childhood, the child is
also studying maths.
So he is studying in English.
Right.
He has to learn to do mathematical modeling.
But he gets lost in translation.
This will also happen to our own children.
Whose children go to school.
They will know this.
And we have been cursing our elders since
our childhood.
We have heard that the educational system is
bad.
There is destruction in Pakistan.
The education system is bad.
But we were not at the receiving end
anymore.
Now it was in our hands to change
it.
It is our school.
For God's sake.
As parents, I know.
You must also want that your children go
to school.
You have a little say in it.
What should be taught.
So this was a golden opportunity.
So I looked for an educationist very carefully.
I tried to do some things.
Which made total sense here.
And the thing was that if it is
allowed to go as it is going.
Then you, I am sorry to say.
He does not allow you to curse.
Because you could have done something about it.
You are not on the receiving end anymore.
So as soon as I tried to change
something.
So all these gentlemen said to me.
You are educated.
Ph.D. I am just trying to explain
the psychological meaning of a word to you.
You will be surprised.
I was shocked.
He said that you cannot experiment on our
children.
So the word of this experiment.
I got the meaning of it.
That even after doing Ph.D. and postdoc.
The meaning of the experiment is negative for
them.
Because otherwise a Ph.D. postdoc in the
sciences.
He cannot use the term of experiment in
this term with anyone.
That do not experiment.
Are you getting the point?
I hope I am making some sense.
Although they are absolutely fine with sending their
kids through a failed experiment.
That is, an experiment that is failed.
For sure.
Its results have come.
That it is a failed experiment.
They are insisting that you do the same.
They are themselves products of that failed experiment.
Yes, yes, yes.
But at a certain stage.
After that, they started cursing him.
No, this is bad.
Something has to be done.
So this too.
The fact that it is an experiment is
hidden now.
And that's lost on them.
Because this itself is an experiment that is
failed.
And for sure.
It's a fact now.
That it is a failed experiment.
They are fine with that.
But someone is trying to do something new.
And that should not be allowed to work.
This is also one thing that the educational
system.
This also puts a tendency.
Because some of my students.
They write their own.
The explanation of this.
The graph that I did not tell.
That the marks are also going up.
But coming back.
So I have had some such experiences.
After which I have reached this conclusion.
That if I have my own.
The inquiry of my science.
And the research-based work in its pursuit.
Or I want to teach higher courses to
senior students.
So the kind of students I want.
Sitting in my labs.
In my research work.
As a co-partner.
Or as my student in my higher classes.
They should have a special kind of tendency.
That is, they should be thoughtful students.
They should also have a historical lens.
There is an angle to see things.
So the way we do science.
Computer science.
I'm talking about it.
But I think it can be generalizable.
What I said about identity.
That's why I did it.
We just finished products.
Made by someone else.
Finished products.
Always show the students.
And tell them to do it.
I don't know if you understand this or
not.
But in computer science.
The way there is a Dijkstra algorithm.
There is an algorithm to search in graphs.
Its name is so difficult.
Dijkstra.
We can't even pronounce it.
It's someone else's algorithm.
Someone else.
For some other problem.
But its finished product.
It's a finished form.
We'll show it to our students.
The solution to this problem.
This is Dijkstra's algorithm.
Remember.
This will come in the final exam.
Remember that.
But again.
The making of thing.
Right.
Dijkstra must not have made it on the
first day.
So the historical lens.
Then there is a philosophical lens like this.
So there are some lenses like this.
Which I want developed.
In my students.
So that I can do a special kind
of thing.
And take them somewhere.
Similarly.
In my co-partners.
I can't do research alone all the time.
So you need a team.
So faculty members too.
I would want such individuals.
Who can think this way.
Like if you have to do some big
research.
You would have to step outside.
The bounds of your own domain.
But if you are not comfortable.
Like you are not comfortable.
Talking to people in psychology.
You are not comfortable.
But it is possible.
There is a cross between computer science and
psychology.
And meaningfully at some place.
Which is necessary.
So if we computer scientists.
Sit in our own drawing room.
Solve all the problems.
So I am sure that the problem will
not be solved.
Like I make an app.
Your client.
Your end users.
Or your patients.
So now because it is the age of
AI.
And the app can be made.
So without talking to you.
I make an app.
And I share it with my patients.
And I get those downloads.
And I get that grant.
But instead of solving that problem.
A man who was a patient.
There are a thousand copies in the world.
Or a million copies are running.
So your work can be done.
Your work.
But instead of being solved.
It gets more complicated.
Yes, yes.
Right?
So but that.
And that in the neck.
The one who has his degree.
The one that happens.
They are being made.
And they are selling well.
Everything is happening.
But the problem is being solved or not.
Nobody knows.
So I mean through a path.
Through this result.
That we need some skills.
Some habits are also long term.
For instance, thoughtful individual.
If we want that by the time.
Student.
Thoughtful.
Created by Namal.
By the way, the motto of Namal.
Again, Ph.D. Ph made my life a
little easier.
Computer science degree.
Similarly, the institution I joined.
Its motto was so beautiful.
That he also helped me.
His motto is shaping those.
Who will shape the future.
Shaping those.
Who shape the future.
It's a beautiful motto.
So I believe.
That they are very thoughtful individuals.
Their listening skills.
Their thinking skills.
Their speaking skills.
Their openness towards.
Experimentation.
So we have a list.
So it's not just me.
By the way.
A bad impression.
I was fortunate enough to.
This was an insider joke.
I was fortunate enough.
To be in conversation with the kind of.
Individuals around me.
Who couldn't think well about school.
Because their kids were not involved.
But.
University students.
From Namal College.
They were very thoughtful.
Thank God.
So we formulated some.
Habits.
In which thoughtfulness.
I am giving you an example.
Now it was figured out.
That it won't happen.
We will press the button.
We started the conversation.
What is missing in our students.
So it came in a negative connotation.
That our students are thoughtless.
So anyway.
We will make it positive.
That it should be thoughtful.
But it can't be like this.
That we will decide from tomorrow.
That the students will be thoughtful from tomorrow.
Yes, it will be fine.
It won't be like this.
So there were two prongs.
Of this solution.
One is this too.
Converged out of conversations.
And I am glad.
To the degree.
Faculty members of Namal.
Will have these abilities.
These characters.
Which I have mentioned to you in the
list.
In which thoughtfulness is just one of them.
Only to that degree.
Students.
Because we have some impression.
So only to that degree.
Students will have that thing.
Number one this.
Number two.
Since we believe.
In change through education.
So in curriculum.
Some structural change should be done.
Because as long as.
They are studying computer science.
Java course.
That is a box.
There is hardly any.
Tendency in it.
That you are doing meaningful engagement.
With students.
So then we.
Again with confidence.
With confidence.
There were 7-8 courses.
In which.
Introduction to the world of philosophy.
History of the world.
Civilizational history.
Including.
Indo-Pak history.
Point being.
You don't have to remember those dates.
A historical lens.
It is important to develop that.
Great books.
Ours and the world.
Literature.
Technical writing.
Functional English.
That's something else.
If you want to make those thoughtful individuals.
People who can shape the future.
Great literature.
People who can fight with society.
Giants.
You will find them in books.
Unfortunately.
We will not find them around us.
People who can fight with society.
You will find them in books of philosophy.
Yes.
Going out.
You get the point.
In the same way.
Principles of science.
History and philosophy.
Of science.
Asim Bakshi.
He has agreed.
Principles of science.
These courses.
In the first year.
First two years.
Computer science.
Maths.
Business.
Electrical engineering.
Humanities.
Working hypothesis.
It is an experiment.
Computer science.
It will be validated.
Inshallah.
Invalidated.
At the cost of some.
Thin.
Program related.
But.
Our belief.
Future.
Change.
Produce.
The formula.
Formula.
Ability.
Even if we talk about.
Algorithms.
Indigenous situation.
Utilizing.
Without having that historical lens.
Without having that philosophical lens.
Even that adaptation is not possible.
pointed out.
At the end of the day, we are
a consumer nation.
And when it comes to technology, you can
see that TikTok has been banned today.
So I don't know what will happen.
We are using other people's products only as
a consumer.
Because democracy is not our product, we don't
know what to do with it.
You can see how much it is being
exploited, right?
Because it is not our product, it is
an idea that is not born from our
thinking.
So when we use someone else's idea, they
do it in such a bad way that
may Allah forgive us.
So because I told you the science story
because we only get them to avoid finished
products.
So we are not even able to make
an app.
By the way, this is a loss.
Because someone else's idea will be made, we
will only use it.
So when the indigenous thought is not born,
then the app will not be made that
is relevant to our societal issues.
It is our app, which makes sense over
here.
And then the usage will be organic and
indigenous, right?
So this is the spirit.
But I will just say the last thing.
Then whatever questions you have, I think I
have taken a lot of time.
Even when we made it, the whole thing
was great.
It was okay up to the Board of
Governors.
We got it approved from the bottom to
the top.
But some new faculty members join NAMAL and
they also come to important positions.
They are also seniors.
So they are representing the accredited mindset.
They say, all of a sudden, I don't
see any course of quantitative reasoning in their
list.
Similarly, the course of philosophy is not in
computer science.
There is Islamic studies, Pak studies, and functional
English, technical writing.
What are you teaching?
So now the fourth favor from Allah, my
life is easy.
It was a very interesting thing.
HEC, under the leadership of Tariq Banuri, the
chairman changed.
I don't know if you know or not.
So recently he used the word revamp.
Undergraduate policy revamped 2020.
He has launched it and all the universities,
now this is not so public, but I
think the people involved in the universities, everyone
knows.
And it has been validated by Allah.
HEC people suddenly sat down.
They were coming from this angle that we
are very concerned about the success of our
students.
So when they go, the degree will not
be attested.
They were coming from this angle that it
should be standardized so that their future is
secure.
And we are also talking about the future,
but we are talking about a very long
-term future.
We are not just talking about giving the
first job.
We had a big canvas, but it has
been absolutely validated.
HEC has said that there should be 13
humanities-based courses.
Their names are the same as we have
kept.
So this is a great thing.
So our work has become very easy.
HEC people have no argument left.
They are now busy that yes, thank you
so much, you have made a good curriculum.
Our work will not have to make any
special changes.
So Dr. Junaid, we talked about how education
inculcates and nourishes certain personalities and habits.
And in the end, you talked about the
curriculum and Dr. Jistri told us about the
old curriculum.
So as a psychiatrist, if we think about
Yusuf, a computer scientist, if he is trained
to be open to philosophy, general science, literature,
arts, and other, so can we, I think
we can imagine that he would be open
to the experiences that he cannot himself validate.
Yes, that is, for whom he has to
reach out to the other.
So you see, this thing is an openness
and there must be a reason why these
courses are placed under the umbrella of humanities.
After all, we are human beings and human
beings are not monolithic robots.
We are social animals who live in a
society and we need the other just as
the other needs me sometimes.
So we have to live with each other
and need each other.
But I don't see all this from this
point of view as a consumerist because a
special kind of economics is permeated in the
world.
So these courses are not for you to
become a graduate of a rich computer science.
Do you understand?
That is, to establish a better, meaningful, fulfilling
society in which human dignity is minimally required.
I mean, what kind of a society is
it that only respects an engineer and a
doctor?
And what do all the parents say to
their children?
Either become an engineer or become a doctor.
But we have all seen that Pakistan that
if you go about this way, then eventually
there is no respect for doctors and engineers.
Right?
I mean, they are also not worthy of
respect.
So we need a society in which a
bus driver is also as respectable, his job
is also getting the same amount of money
and the service he is providing is also
as professional as an engineer or a doctor.
So connecting it to your question that we
definitely need other people, professionally speaking as well
as at the level of humanity.
But those tendencies that no, we have to
keep respect in a vertical hierarchy and there
will be two or three people above, the
rest will be buried somewhere below.
So those tendencies are long-term habits that
will not even allow meaningful dialogue to be
established.
That is, as a computer scientist, if I
understand the people of psychology, that is, beneath
me, that dialogue will be shit.
Right?
Or it will not be a dialogue for
the solution to any problem.
If they have to talk in any place
out of helplessness, they will do it.
Do not think of psychologists as beneath you.
They are under your skin.
I think before moving on to questions, Dr.
Junaid, as you mentioned, the habits that develop,
the curriculum is loaded and this is a
baggage of habits that we graduate with.
It is very easy to see how these
habits then manifest themselves in personal psychological problems
and then interpersonal conflicts.
Like you said, if I do not give
space to others as a specialist in the
field, then how can I give space to
others in any relationship?
And then the dynamic that will come there,
we see that every day.
I have a daughter of 8-9 years.
Shakespeare, that is, the nations that are above
at the moment, for some reason, have made
their elders, who they consider to be elders,
accessible to them at the level of children.
Those who we consider to be our elders,
we have to keep them up.
They never have to be given access to
the bottom.
You can read any story of Shakespeare.
It is about such an intimate human aspect,
such as jealousy.
His whole story, his theme is jealousy.
There is power and struggle with power.
There is love, there is hatred, which can
lead to certain consequences.
If you don't know how to deal with
jealousy.
So connecting it to your question, you professionally
join an organization.
But if you are not connected with your
own inner being, and you are jealous, you
are not able to tolerate someone else's good
thing, then you see that no institutions can
be built in Pakistan.
What is the reason for that?
We don't know how to deal with power
struggles.
Similarly, if a person is doing a good
job, he does not deal with us.
Because we have not read such things.
Neither did our elders engage us in such
texts.
And such great people are no longer with
us, which is very unfortunate.
Otherwise, these books may not be so necessary.
But I hope you understand that it is
so deeply rooted.
That you just produce the best computer scientists
and place them in a software house.
But if its other human, deeply human characteristics
are left shallow, they are left lopsided, then
it will be such a terrible environment, that
working environment will be so restricted.
Just like Pakistani people go abroad, it is
a common thing now.
So enabling environment is a term.
This is what Pakistani people do.
Because it is an enabling environment.
In Pakistan, it becomes such a suffocating environment.
Wherever you go, institutions are not able to
be built.
So in my opinion, as an educationist, because
we have made such lopsided types of curriculum,
they are completely related to their degree.
And they also teach tired.
But those people eventually have to go to
society.
After going there, they are not fitting anywhere.
And they are pulling each other's legs.
Politics is going on.
And dirty games are going on.
In my opinion, this is such an important
thing.
For the society.
Right.
So moving on, we take a couple of
comments.
Dr. Junaid, if you want to comment on
the comments, slash questions, I want for you
to talk to us.
What do you have to say about this?
What are you talking about?
Why do you reduce technical courses?
Why don't you just communicate these ideas in
seminars?
And, you know, the university is full of
distractions.
True.
That's one way of going about it.
In the name of the university, again, it's
not about the name.
A universe embedded.
Thank God there is a universe embedded in
the university.
So, of course, all sorts of activities should
be going on in the university.
The seminars is one way.
But you know, if you listen to one
thing for half an hour, how deeply it
will penetrate.
But for instance, in the course of philosophy,
Plato's Gorgias is engaged with the whole text.
So there is all the engagement of power
versus justice and virtue.
So when you go through the whole text
line by line, that makes a difference.
So some conversations are born, which in 15
minutes, or even in three hours, give a
day long workshop.
But you can go through a text in
detail in a workshop.
And secondly, and very thankfully, I will reiterate,
HEC has now reached the realization that they
have done this, that you should reduce your
core program.
Because undergrad is that space and time in
which there is breadth.
So general education.
Now every program, every university has to give.
And we're talking about 40 credits out of
120.
It's a TikTok space.
So one third.
Junaid, I think we lost you.
Okay, you should be back any minute now.
Oh, you're back.
Sorry.
But I think I completed my point, right?
Sorry Azad.
CS people's internet is not good.
CS people's internet is not good.
They are studying in a technical course.
Time lag Azad.
Okay.
As many other questions you would want Junaid
Bhai's comments on.
Junaid Bhai had already said that I have
to go at 10.
So I think we should not.
We will not hold you any longer than
this.
If he goes to Facebook, I don't know.
He is going to Facebook.
He is going.
Oh wow.
Peace.
If there are any comments, I can address
them there too.
Offline more.
Sure.
That would be wonderful.
Thank you so much Junaid Bhai for being
with us.
For everything that you had to share with
us.
It was a very enlightening conversation.
Thank you.
And we will be troubling you every now
and then.
I don't know.
I don't have anything else to tell you.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for having me.
It was a lot of fun.
I wish there were more people like you.
With whom you can have a fun conversation.
And.
As long as possible.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much Junaid Bhai.
Thank you so much.
All right Azam.
Any closing words?
No.
Because.
Yes.
Because.
I don't think.
We can summarize it very quickly.
But.
What we are trained.
In our schools.
In our colleges.
In our programs.
We are not only training.
Doctors or engineers.
Or artists or anything else.
We are also.
Training personalities with them.
They are.
The tools they are.
Going to learn.
Are not only for diagnose.
To diagnose others.
But they are also inculcating some.
Habits.
Which will affect our whole life.
Absolutely.
And so all the more reason.
We need to start taking.
The curriculum and education system.
That we are pulling.
People through or pushing them through.
More and more seriously.
Other people thank you so much.
Subhanakallah.
Allah Allah.
Assalamu alaikum.