Umm Jamaal ud-Din – Advice For Overcoming Struggles in Marriage
AI: Summary ©
The conversation covers issues faced by Muslims in marriage, including struggles faced by couples, communication issues, and reasons for couples to stay in touch. The speakers discuss various topics such as addiction, mental health, and couples' behavior, emphasizing the importance of working with shaykhs and psychologists to help people with mental health issues and educating men about mental health issues. They also touch on the need for extra work and changes in society to avoid pressures and maintain stable marriage, and the impact of social media on people's relationships and the difficulty of marriage in the west. The segment emphasizes the importance of finding a neutral partner and finding a neutral partner in relationships, and gives advice to others on love and engagement in relationships.
AI: Summary ©
I seek refuge in Allah from the accursed
Satan In the name of Allah, Most Gracious,
Most Merciful My Lord, open my heart and
ease my affairs And sweeten the end of
my tongue so that my tongue may be
strong Peace be upon you And
yes, we have had a few episodes in
the past on the topic of marriage And
these episodes have been our longest episodes They've
been our most popular episodes So it only
gives it justice to do another one Because
every time we wrap up these episodes Even
though they've been quite long There's always some
more material that we wish we had discussed
But we didn't have the time to do
so So inshallah, tonight's marriage episode We're going
to specifically focus on a particular topic Within
this big umbrella topic of marriage And that
is the struggles that Muslims are facing in
their marriages What are the modern day challenges
and the issues Why are we finding marriages
so hard today?
And joining me for this riveting discussion We
have some three amazing women in our community
Who are doing incredible work on the front
line On the issue of Muslim marriages in
their respective fields We have two of our
Real Talk favourites I've lost count how many
times you both have been on Real Talk
I don't even need to give an introduction
Rami Abdel-Sultan, lawyer, community advocate Dayid, mentor,
mashallah We have Sheikha Umm Jamaluddin Again, needs
no introduction Teacher, mentor, community advocate And another
Real Talk favourite And joining us for the
first time on Real Talk We have Sister
Wendy Salto And she's a clinical psychologist So
welcome all of you And thank you for
joining us for the first time I know
we're at the end of the year It's
really busy towards the end of the year
So I really appreciate the time that you've
taken to be here tonight And I know
it's late, it's 8.30pm But thank you
so much for joining us So we're going
to go straight into the discussion today I
thought we'd just go right into it Because
this is one of those topics that we
do like to talk a lot about And
it's the ones that people will ask a
lot of questions in the live stream I
will try and read some of your questions
during the episode And try to get through
as many as we can But okay, Bismillah,
let's go So the first question We'll do
like a round table I'm going to fire
this question to all three of you And
you can answer it from what you've seen
in the community Through your respective fields And
that is, what is the most common marital
problems That you're seeing that Muslims in the
community are facing In your role as a
sheikha In your role as a psychologist And
in your role as a lawyer Who would
like to go first?
I think I'll go last Because I'm the
last point of contact With marriage right now
Okay, I'll go first If I send them
over to you Alright, there we go, that
makes sense Okay, look, I think if we're
going to look at the most common problem
Wallahu'alam, what I have seen It tends
to be like There's a disconnect between the
two parties Unfortunately And what seems to be
happening a lot of the time Is they
find that they've got very different expectations And
you've got one party putting a lot of
expectations on the other party Yet a lot
of the time They don't actually want to
give as much themselves So that causes a
lot of problems in relationships So I think
that's probably a primary one that I've seen
But if I want to look at the
most common one So it's expectation And what's
this area where they're expecting too much And
their expectations aren't being met Is it more
like religiously?
Or is it doing house duties?
What are you seeing that they're complaining about
the most?
I think it's the expectations Looking at all
the different cases I've Over many, many years,
you know It seems that A lot of
people don't realise how much life has changed
And you can't expect your spouse to be
doing What necessarily your parents were doing Because
the expectations on each couple now Is far
more than ever before So you can't expect
them to be doing Because in the past,
if you look at it Life was a
lot more simple And there wasn't as much
on a person I remember even seeing, for
example, a post once And exactly what Ramia
had said When she travelled overseas And she
told some of the ladies What they had
to do in Australia They couldn't believe it
There's so much on us For example, if
you look at The typical mother in Australia
She's doing Usually she'll be doing Well, a
lot of them Obviously, they're working as well
Or studying But for example, they've got their
They're looking after children And then they've got
to go Take the kids to school And
then they've got to go shopping There's just
so much to do There's so much to
do And then, as you know We've also
got a significant number of Women who are
doing it on their own They don't actually
even have The husband's support at all You
know, they don't even have husbands You know,
unfortunately So they're doing it all alone And
that's really hard In this society You just
don't really Not everyone has You know, the
family unit around them To support them So
that's a real struggle For a lot of
people Yeah Yeah, so basically The expectations are
not meeting up With practicality of our reality
Yeah Oh, interesting I agree I find that
the detachment Is a really prominent feature In
a lot of the troubled couples I tend
to see it As a sense of alienation
Each party is living in its own bubble
There's a lack of interconnectedness There's a lack
of emotional intimacy There's a lack of friendship
And most importantly I feel the disconnect Is
a result of a deeper issue Of a
lack of communication They either don't know how
to communicate Or they've lost the motivation to
communicate Most of the time It seems to
me That there's a lack of understanding Of
the value of open communication And so it's
an issue Around skills building Or self-awareness
Around how to communicate effectively With your partner
And of course, often times Couples come in
And when you scratch the surface You'll find
enormous histories Of problems That may be manifesting
In the marriage That have not been addressed
That could potentially ease the pressure That is
in that relationship So the communication is probably
the big one I think that's the biggest
one Yeah, and why do you think that
is the case?
And is this something that's new That's happening
with our generation?
Or is this something that's always been A
problem with marriages?
Always been a problem with marriages Because think
about it Like, you know I'm not the
body that sits in this chair I reside
within this body And so if you have
a relationship With any two people It's essentially
about Coming to know the person That you
are residing with And the only means of
knowing that I know actions go to some
extent But it's through that communication And that
communication Can either be constructive Or it could
be destructive You know In creating that interconnectedness
Between the two souls That reside in male
-female bodies So to speak So essentially A
healthy marriage Should resemble You know A really
wholesome, healthy friendship On most fronts With some
added dimensions to it And that is what
I find Is mostly missing in Marriages probably
Generally But I'm specifically talking about Muslim couples
that I work with Yeah That's been very
enlightening Ramia In your case As a lawyer
What are you seeing?
Because I think what you see Is probably
a bit different To what they're seeing So
I very rarely ask I do But I
rarely ask It's not my business To know
why the marriage is broken down But I'm
always keen to know You know To question
that you tend to pose Especially when you're
Dealing with Muslim clients And they would have
already Gone through those steps They would have
gotten The spiritual guidance Possibly gone to the
You know Psychological or relationship help Counseling and
so forth And then it's reached a point
where It's just not working anymore And at
times And you know We were having this
conversation earlier Marriage breakdowns Are not always going
to be triggered By blatant abuse But be
it physical You know Emotional Whatever it is
Financial and so forth Or even spiritual It's
What we're seeing now Is a surfacing of
You know Various reasons And it's almost When
you simplify it It's almost as if Couples
have checked out Right They've actually just checked
out Of the relationship And yes I completely
agree with Wendy It's almost like There is
no communication And there is always a fear
At times of communication I feel Within our
community Because when you do communicate It's almost
as if You're going to trigger Issues And
people just want to live in peace Right
And when you When you talk I mean
there's this Almost taboo idea That if you
talk It's You know It's considered Whinging Right
And when you communicate It's whinging So there's
a lack of friendship Lack of You know
Connectedness And so forth And look I was
having a conversation With a particular client And
you know She's dealing with A special needs
child All the responsibilities on her Her husband
is able To look after himself He's able
to continue Going to the gym Maintain his
fitness Maintain his health Go to work Come
back And she's left with The responsibilities that
You know That are supposed to be shared
As a couple So the way Most couples
And unfortunately We're not saying It's right or
wrong And when you have These conversations People
obviously say That it's We are reaching The
end of times As they say But women
are almost In a situation Where well Why
should I Be in a relationship Where I'm
doing it all anyway And I have to
uphold An added responsibility I just I don't
need it Right So I'll just do it
on my own I'm not saying that that
is right But unfortunately This is where I'm
seeing relationships Are heading It's just checking out
It's going into that now Yes Like where
it's just Okay it's too difficult I might
as well I'm working anyway Yeah I'm doing
it all on my own Yeah And I
just don't need That added baggage And you
know And so So the scenario That you
brought up On the surface Might sound very
simple Like oh He didn't stay back And
help with the kid He preferred to go
to the gym But it's a It's a
sign Of something More profound That's missing Which
is a lack of regard For his partner
A lack of shared Empathy Care There's a
lack of You know I'll give her a
hand Before I run off to the gym
I'll check in with her See how she's
doing You know That That taps into A
whole different level And when that level Is
missing There's going to be All these other
Manifestations That create this Disconnect And yes It
does lead to women Saying well What do
I need you You know Especially now Women
are financially Independent Often times They're more resourceful
Than their spouses And you know So the
men Kind of like Render themselves Redundant By
By disengaging From their primary role As carers
And providers And nurturers And best friends To
their spouses As the Rasul A.S. Was
to his wife Just to build on that
Also You find that You know Even religiously
And Islamically speaking There is a A regard
for Rights and responsibilities And there's almost Just
an emphasis I want my rights Yes But
there's no Responsibility And the essence Of our
Our teachings Is that With rights Comes responsibilities
Both ways And I think that In and
of itself Is a trigger Yeah For breakdowns
When anyone ever Starts feeling like They are
the one Continuing to sacrifice Yet they don't
feel like Their needs are being met Yeah
It just builds up over time Resentment Resentment
And bitterness And they start lashing out On
their partner Yeah Because a lot of people
Don't know how to deal with it And
over time That's how the marriage Can become
very Very damaged Yes I'm sure it can
become Irreparable Right Yeah Yeah It was like
Yeah Wendy mentioned That it might start It
seemed like It's from something So trivial Like
when he went to the gym While I
had to Yeah It seems like Something trivial
But when it has Built up over time
And gotten to that stage Yeah That's where
so much Is manifesting Underneath all that Yes
I'm glad you pointed that out And so
the resentment That you speak of You know
Becomes contempt And research has proven That contempt
is the one The number one Highest predictor
Of divorce In couples Yeah So these little
instances Can become A breeding ground For growing
contempt Between the couples Yeah You know Building
on from that What would All three of
you say So again I'll ask Pass this
question around Is the primary cause For marriages
breaking down Apart from The blatant abuse So
we looked at like What are the Common
problems But what's that main cause That you
think That this is why It's actually breaking
down now Again We've only focused on this
I did also want to mention Other You
know If you're talking I mean From what
I've seen We have to also accept That
there are Core issues Within relationships Such as
addictions Whether it's * addiction Drug addictions Gambling
addictions Yes There may not be abuse Of
any sort But these are problems Infidelity and
so forth Between You know Couples And you
know Women Being on the receiving end And
being expected Time and time again To be
patient I guess Or forgive Right So you're
seeing a lot of that We're seeing a
lot Addictions Are at the core And I
think you can have A whole episode On
this But I believe That they are You
know They're a societal issue They're not just
exclusive And they're breaking down marriages Absolutely Absolutely
So we're just I mean These are very
very You know Core or key issues That
we're seeing But you know Apart from that
That disconnect also So when you ask couples
But what's the reason I had a couple
Who actually applied For a joint divorce And
they both came And signed the divorce papers
And I asked What's the issue And they're
just like We're just Not in love The
love is not there You know We're very
amicable We're still respectful We're going to care
For the children But we're just We've fallen
out of love And I think that Just
does not happen overnight It's a culmination Of
various factors And it ended up Really respectful
You know It does Yeah So there are
other issues Such as those Going a bit
off topic Just to what you had said
Do you feel like There's still hope In
a marriage That's like that Where they're just
not In love anymore But they're still respectful
And maybe they know How to communicate Because
obviously They've been communicating They can get to
that stage Amicably Yeah And I've seen situations
Where that does happen Divorces are You know
Proceeded with And then The separation period Takes
place And they're apart From each other For
a few years Only to realise That they
actually Need to You know They're willing To
give it another shot So sometimes divorce I'm
not saying It's the right way But you
know There has to be Steps that need
To be taken To try to salvage A
relationship Yeah Right And divorce Needs to be
the last So when we discuss You know
Have you gone And sought Whether it's A
spiritual help Or the psychological Counseling help And
this is taboo In our community Let's admit
When you tell a couple Particularly Our brothers
Yeah Have you sought Marriage counselling Yeah It's
like No, oh my god This is it
This is divorce In and of itself Yeah
And we need to Break away from that
Because there is no harm In a safe
space In a confidential You know Environment That
you seek The relevant help That was actually
The next question I was going to ask
Was exactly that That What are the avenues
That Muslim couples Are seeking For intervention And
what are they Hoping to achieve From these
interventions And is it mainly women Or is
it men as well So you know There's
the spiritual avenues Psychological help Or therapy And
then legal as well So you can all
Take turns again Answering that I would say
Those Yeah Yeah So what are the interventions
So when they do come to you What
are they hoping to achieve And is it
mainly Just women that are coming Or do
you see Do you see brothers Coming to
you For this kind of help as well
I think if you were to look at
If you look at the Anyone who's on
the ground Like for example As a religious
leader I think you'd see Predominantly it would
be women Who make the first move To
reach out And seek Counsel To ask You
know What should they do In their situation
Get advice On what should be done And
could you speak To my husband for example
Something like that You know what I mean
So that would be And a lot of
people Like you know That's one of the
reasons We wanted to do tonight Tonight's panel
Is in our community As you know A
lot of people believe That going to the
sheikh Will solve my problem So they think
that If I go to the sheikh And
he talks to my husband Just like that
Everything will be fine And it will be
all fixed up And we'll go home And
there'll be No more problems anymore Is that
the most popular Like avenue Absolutely I 100
% still believe that Oh really And so
I feel We all have a responsibility To
kind of retrain Our community And then A
lot of people Still do not understand That
we actually have Muslim psychologists They just see
psychologists As like Oh no not psychology That's
just for people Who've got mental You know
mental illnesses Or you know They don't understand
What psychologists Can actually offer them Especially if
they're specialised And that's why Actually I'm just
going to Take this opportunity And really thank
Wendy For coming on tonight Because as she
knows I'd say I'm not sure how many
years now But I'd say maybe 15 years
I'm not really sure How many years it's
been But it's been a very long time
I've been sending women Over to Wendy Because
what it is I have a lot of
women Obviously come to me And then over
the years I've tested out Various places for
them To get help And I kind of
listen To the feedback they get And Wendy
got good ratings She got good ratings They
all told me Oh she was great You
know She really helped me So And I
think tonight For me Was about You know
Showing our community Where they can get the
help Because a lot of people Don't know
where to go And so they're not really
Seeking help in the right places Necessarily And
That was actually Something I wanted to Actually
even direct to You know Wendy herself And
just ask her Because Okay so Because you
know You've got situations where First of all
You could have Someone who's Got a problem
They've had a problem With their husband For
like 20 years Or something Or they've got
Maybe their husband's Got a * addiction Or
like Really serious problems Right Even trauma And
all this stuff And then they just want
To go to the sheikh And think that
That's going to solve Their problem But then
The other thing too So that's the first
thing Normally it's the sheikh But okay Now
they're starting To understand Alright you can go
To counsellors But counsellors Have different levels Of
expertise And sometimes Your problem could be So
deeply serious That you need some real You
know you need Some very Highly qualified Person
To kind of Really help you With that
problem Because it's not just about Kind of
like Fixing your communication skills It's far beyond
that There's traumas Therapy That go back Yeah
traumas And they need to Sort of look
at What's really going on Why are they
both Getting triggered In this way At each
other And sometimes it goes Back to childhood
trauma So you need someone Who can go
much Much deeper than Your average counsellor So
if I can just Put that over to
Wendy If you could just Explain to people
Give me a bit of Guidance on When
should you Go to this one Or you
know Do you know What I'm trying to
say If you can try Well what are
the options So often times They come to
me They've gone to a sheikh Or like
you've Referred them over But mostly It's they've
gone To a sheikh And mostly It's women
presenting With issues In the marriage And most
of the time The males Refuse to present
Okay And so we will Try to coax
them And try and Encourage them To come
in And I tell the Tell the woman
To tell him If you don't like it
You don't have to Come back Or we
can do A telehealth Consultation Or whatever And
often the response Is I don't need To
be told What to do So then When
you get The case history You kind of
Scratch beneath The surface And there's usually Indication
of something A lot more profound That hasn't
been Addressed With the male Other times It's
just a Malfunctioning Of Their inner schemers And
I'll go into That in a little While
Because you know There's a couple Of psychological
Principles That I think Are really powerful And
very helpful For every single Person to know
And understand Yeah In terms of You know
Creating a level Of self-awareness And trying
to manage Their own mental health And the
first one Is The
notion That our thoughts Are powerful enough To
create An emotional Shift And create A physiological
Change And a behavioral Response So our thoughts
Our emotions Our physiological Processes And our behaviours
Are all interconnected It's like a quadrant But
there's no Linear relationship That can be Interconnected
So you might Behave a certain Way Then
that will Shoot up And create A thought
About that Behaviour And that will Trigger a
certain Emotion And that will Trigger a certain
Internal reaction Whether it be Anxiety Depression Tension
And all that Sort of thing So that
Is the thought Process Of mankind So science
Tells us That we have About 70,000
Of these Thoughts That are Fleeting through Our
mind Daily And the vast Majority of it
Over 90% Of it Is irrational Faulty
And self-defeating That's a huge Volume Of
dysfunctional Potentially destructive Thinking That Manifests in Our
minds Daily So And often times People that
are Troubled Are very reactive To their thoughts
There's no stopping And thinking What did I
just think?
Do I need to reframe That thought?
Do I need to challenge That thought?
They just accept it Wholesale And this is
where The problems arise So that's one Construct
I'd like you to Keep in mind The
other one Is this So Imagine the human
Mind I love analogies Because they Kind of
stick So imagine The analogy Of a tree
And the tree Is a very Well established
One With a trunk Branches Leaves Flowers Potentially
fruit And under the soil Is a massive
Network of roots That are Embedded in Potentially
Highly enriched Soil Microorganisms Biochemicals That interact And
feed the root System The fruit And all
the rest Of it So the human Mind
Is say Like below The soil Is what
we Call core beliefs And these Roots are
laid Down From Birth Onwards Your belief System
is so Critical In setting Your perspective On
the world The way that you See it
It's like Literally like Wearing a pair Of
lenses And everyone's Lenses Are unique To them
Because what You see Is hard Wired Into
your Core beliefs So core beliefs Under the
surface In the soil The trunk Creates Your
Attitudes To life To others To self The
branches Are more like Ways of being Like
habits And things That stem From attitudes That
are rooted In your Core belief System And
then the Finer leaves And potential Flowers or
fruits Are thoughts And actions That you engage
In So everything's Connected To what's Oftentimes Subconscious
Not unconscious But just below Your level of
Awareness And so when You combine that With
the CBT Model of Having automatic Thoughts firing
Off That are Stemming from This root System
And this is Where we have Issues So
if you An individual For example That is
prone To frequent Bouts of depression Will Oftentimes
Fuse with Their thoughts Without question They become
They develop A habitual way Of just orienting
Themselves Towards negative Thinking And then they develop
Frequent bouts of Depression Their brain Becomes You
know Sensitized Towards a Depressive state And then
it Becomes recurrent And of course There's ramifications
You know It has interpersonal Ramifications Social Economic
Your work Your family Your relationships Confidence Self
esteem It pervades every area Of your life
So if for example One of the client's
Husbands is You know Severely depressed Then she's
Impacted by that Right And unless we Meet
with him And appropriately Assess him And then
Provide some Therapeutic intervention For him Then fixing
That marriage Is going to be Difficult Exactly
You know He's not going to Be in
a mindset Because he's not Thinking positively For
example That you know This is just Depression
I need to Address that Right So and
then Couples are Unable to Understand that Perspective
of my Spouse is a Valid perspective It's
just a Different perspective To mine Yes That
sounds Elementary to A lot of people But
most People Not most people A lot of
people That I've come across Find that Difficult
to Fathom that You don't see it My
way Therefore There's something Wrong with you Yeah
But if couples Were to come On board
with this Notion that I can disagree With
my partner And that's okay Yes But isn't
that Interesting that They have that Perspective Hey
Give me those Spectacles Honestly The world Where
you're Seeing that Let's talk about this Right
And then all of a sudden It opens
a vista Of amazing Communication Emotional intimacy Respect
Mutuality And all that Sort of thing But
just to Build on Both of your Points
I think I think our Leadership and Mashaykh
Are learning Alhamdulillah In a sense That In
the past They held And carried The responsibility
To be counsellor To be Sheikh To be
Everything And now From what I'm Seeing actually
I am seeing A referral system In some
way or another In a sense that This
is beyond My scope You need to go
See this person Or that person And going
back To the saying However you can Take
the horse To the river But you can't
Make a drink And essentially If both parties
Because it takes Two to ten Going If
both parties Are not willing To save The
marriage Whether it's Through intervention Counselling Therapy Then
it's Almost irreparable Both parties Need to be
on The same page Otherwise Where most of
us Would be seeing It's the Sister The
wife That's generally Fighting for the Relationship Because
she's Identified that There's a problem Whereas the
Other partner Is almost oblivious Or I've seen
that So many times Where the woman Will
want to take Whatever she can Like whatever
precautions She can take Whatever active measures She
can take I should say To you know
Fix the marriage And the man is oblivious
To that there's any problem To begin with
They're just like It's all in your head
What have I done Yeah is that something
That you see a lot as well A
lot Yeah And what do you think Where
do you think That's coming from See from
the men's perspective They don't even see That
there is a problem They're not necessarily Unhappy
in the marriage You know They want it
to continue But a lot of sisters Are
like that's it I've had enough I want
out Look that's A really big story And
one that I've been Trying to piece together
For a long time Sometimes I wish I
was a man For a week or two
So I can kind of Really get how
a man Ticks but I'm not And I
don't think I'm likely to be But I'm
trying to Piece it together And I think
I'm starting to get An inkling about How
men think About vulnerability And it's entirely Different
to how We think about vulnerabilities You know
when us girls Are troubled We like to
share And talk And process it Verbally And
you know And we're more than Happy to
see therapists And break down And cry about
it But for a man It attacks their
Very Their very existential Being Of being a
man Who's capable Who's competent Who can solve
His own problems Who can you know Strive
to be The apple of his wife's eye
Who's like you know The problem solver The
The saviour of the day So if he
goes off To a psychologist Who's female Who's
also Accompanied by his wife It's like the
girls Are there And he's there And you
know We're just sending out Signals like Brother
There's something wrong With you You know and
that's For a guy that's already Troubled I
can understand How that's profoundly Adversive for him
So I get it And totally respect it
What we do with that Allah Allah You
know maybe we need A lot more Like
male therapists Maybe the shaykhs I'd love to
see this happen For them to upskill In
terms of you know Psychological knowledge And intervention
strategies I'd love for shaykhs And psychologists To
do professional Development together To just you know
Cross reference knowledge Because I feel like I
lack a lot Of religious knowledge That I
wish I had And always learning Alhamdulillah But
you know And I'm sure shaykhs Would also
benefit From kind of like you know Receiving
what we There are accidental Counselor courses And
so forth That I'm aware of Yes I
mean you're not At all equipped Enough to
obviously But I think that would help Absolutely
Because you know You are at times I
know I'm I'm put in a position Of
counselling Many times Yes Over you know Giving
exclusive Legal advice unfortunately But I think I
think for shaykhs You're always in that Position
as well One thing that I have Found
really helps the sisters To sort of console
them Because they always Get very upset That
my husband Won't seek help Yes And I
just tell them Sister 99% Of men
So it's not just Your husband When they
hear that It actually helps them So much
Just to know that Helps so much You're
not alone It's very common We would like
to see It changed And I think it
will change I do believe The next generation
You know People are starting to We can
see it Like people becoming More aware about
Mental health issues Like they're realising They do
need to go Get you know We can
seek out That help There's no shame in
it And as you said We do have
some Male counsellors And psychologists now And I
do find that The men are feeling A
little bit more Comfortable to go see Maybe
those Yeah I was going to say They're
feeling more Comfortable going to The male psychologist
Yeah But one thing I do Tell sisters
as well I say look Don't despair Just
you go see The female psychologist Yourself Because
she can still Give you skills You know
On how to maybe Better navigate Your conflicts
And stuff like that And little changes As
we know As they always tell you You
know You can't change The other person But
by you making Small changes That can bring
about Different reactions In the partner And stuff
like that So it's not hopeless It's not
a hopeless situation If your spouse Won't go
see A counsellor Or psychologist Like you go
I always tell the sisters You go and
try You know You go and try And
of course Make lots of dua to Allah
Yeah And ultimately As well Allah is the
Turner of the hearts As well Right?
Yeah So Inshallah Yeah I think even for
the females Going and seeking that You know
Seeking that help From the psychologist It's like
you mentioned You know We see from our
lens It might help them To actually see
From their lens Yes And that might actually
help Because then you realise Maybe we are
making Maybe in some situations I might be
getting Really offended over something Or making Really
It doesn't bother him Why is it You
know what I mean like It might just
really help In that situation Yes It does
help Because it helps him To step back
Okay now I can see Why he's maybe
You know Doing certain things At least if
you've got the knowledge It empowers you Not
to be so maybe Reactive to certain things
He does And stuff like that Even something
as simple as You know The five love
languages And so forth And I know that
Clients have sort of Indicated that By them
just understanding What you know Each of their
love languages It actually has gone You know
It's allowed their marriage To go far Or
further But just basic Or simple understanding Is
okay What's my community Language Yes And what
is yours And meeting each other Half way
Helps So education is critical But Absolutely The
conversation needs To be had essentially You know
sister Wendy You were describing before When you
explained In so much detail Of a whole
You know the branch And the roots And
the way That we think And how it
affects Our feelings And our thoughts You know
when A certain situation happens And that triggers
something And then our thoughts Affect all of
these things And then if someone Is depressed
And then their depression Is leading into This
vicious cycle Of all these Extra reactionary things
And it's impacting Them all And that made
me think If someone is Going through all
Of that And then you expect A sheikh
To just kind of Mediate and fix The
marriage It's actually not When you explain It
that way It's like no It's not going
to work That's not their job They're not
equipped To do that That's not what They've
studied It literally is Such a deeper issue
And you need someone Who's qualified In that
To help with that It's not They don't
need mediation They need Like real Deep therapy
I just really Want to understand this Because
I think This is something like Is there
any Kind of like Guideline To when your
problem Would be more like A case where
A counsellor A general counsellor Would be sufficient
And when Wait a minute No that's not
Going to be sufficient We really should go
See a psychologist For our sort of situation
But was there any Kind of like Where
you can give A guideline on that At
all As counsellor Versus psychologist Yeah Like what's
the Difference for people To understand That might
be tough I'm not sure What the background
Training of counsellors Are Okay Right I understand
So for psychology Like You know we have
to Go to uni We have to be
Registered with APRA We have to You know
Fulfil certain guidelines And keep up our Professional
development And things like that I don't necessarily
Think you need Like you know Super high
calibre work It's just basically Understanding the Dynamic
of what We're working with And one particular
Challenge for me Is to try to marry
The evidence based Training that I've had Learning
here And you know Enmesh that With islam
Because I do Believe strongly That everything That
I've learnt In the three psych degrees That
I've done Is absolutely Definitely in islam Because
I see it And I'm just Currently working
Towards creating Those connections So that I recognise
Oh this is that therapy That therapy This
intervention That intervention And it's a work In
progress But a very exciting Work for me
But in terms of Intervention and fixing The
problem I think it's Far harder Far healthier
To approach It along the lines Of like
community Well being Like the familial Well being
Of the muslim community And I think I've
never Gone to juma prayer Was that a
public Confession Anyways I've never gone to Juma
prayer But I remember When I went to
hajj I was looking around And listening to
the Khutba And thinking like Wow Like this
is the biggest Uni lecture class I've ever
seen And I remember And then Ever since
I've realised That the weekly Khutba In Friday
Could be the most Fantastic opportunity To educate
The community Especially men Absolutely Around men's Mental
health Around familial Constructs That we need to
Like seed And then water And then cultivate
Yes And be systematic In doing that So
maybe A masjid for example Could have a
theme Every month To cover a particular Topic
Even if they Consult psychologists In the background
But if it's A sheikh Delivering the material
To men That would never Otherwise access Mental
health Right Absolutely That would be amazing And
we are seeing That Yes Very subtly Yes
It's starting up Like Anik You know The
board of imams Right They do try to
Encourage the imams To speak about Certain themes
Right Of course Mental health And DV Yeah
they have done that They have done that
So it's starting Like look Everything's at the
beginning stage But inshallah I believe I can
see so many I can see so much
progress Yes So much progress And maybe gear
it Towards actual skills building Yes Because if
you had like Arbitrary ad hoc lectures Every
Friday About random topics It doesn't necessarily Filter
down to skills building But if you have
the same theme For a sustained period of
time And then you introduce Elements of the
skills So that they go away From week
to week Practising That's a very good idea
That's a great Therapy unmask That's a very
good idea Yeah I'm just going to go
through Some of the questions That have been
asked In the live stream Someone said Please
elaborate On what is considered Infidelity With so
much access And screen time I think it's
important To clarify No Sorry No Like maybe
Let's not sidetrack too much Okay Because I
think It's really important That we remain Like
general Mainstream Positive Solution focused So to address
The overarching Theme of marriage Yeah I think
this question Was asked When we were talking
About Causes The causes of And I think
you mentioned Something like infidelity And I think
that's when Someone asked that question What is
considered Infidelity I think Because it's a big
issue With these Like with these Kind of
When I get questions Like this I would
need to Actually speak To the individual And
see exactly What happened Exactly Every case Is
going to have A different Story A different
Ruling for it Yeah You know people Were
talking about Islamic rulings Yeah So you can't
say It's generally And if she went To
the psychologist The psychologist Will tell her Every
case Will have a different Therapy for it
Yes And if she goes To the lawyer
The lawyer will say Every case Has a
different Legal ruling for it Because a woman
There are women That could Sort of Declare
Their man Or husband Having viewed * As
being Him having committed An affair Right As
opposed to Another woman So it's not a
question For it Yes So I believe It's
a very But let's just Put it out
there too If anyone has A particular question
You're more than Welcome To Like if the
question Is more my kind Of feel Please
Reach out And I'm more than Happy to
answer Your questions Ramia if you know You
need a lawyer If you need a psychologist
That's what we're here For tonight Yep Alright
Done Perfect Okay we're going To go Take
it back now To the courtship period Yes
And we're going To tackle that Topic now
Because Okay With the courtship period Now With
The way Islamic marriages Are done We don't
go out On dates And all of that
So what are Some Maybe red flags Or
some You know Warning signs That we might
Be able to See in a Potential spouse
That Might not easily Be picked up In
the courtship Period Like for instance What if
someone Has so much You know Unresolved Childhood
trauma That they're Going to bring Into the
marriage And then you Will only Realize that
Afterwards And if you Find out Oh it's
so Difficult For You know So difficult To
For this person To You know Resolve conflicts
Or What if someone Is You know Well
I don't Want to say These words like
Toxic or Narcissistic Or all these Things But
in the Courtship period How can we Get
to know The person In the Islamic Way
And also from A psychological Perspective How can
we Get to know Who they Are And
see the Warning signs Before we Actually enter
Into the marriage To protect It from Falling
out Can we Just backtrack That a bit
First Before we Even talk About red Flags
The problem That we Are seeing Is not
even Necessarily About red Flags Okay It's about
People do Need to I believe Slow the
Courtship Process down Okay Because what's Happening is
We have We're having A situation And this
is Even based upon Some studies That I
did Because I'm Doing a Masters Of Fiqh
And with The Masters Of Fiqh I had
To do A research On looking At various
Papers around The Muslim World Okay And what
Are the Causes they Are seeing Of the
increase Of divorce In Muslim Communities In various
Countries like Jordan Iraq Like you Know And
one Of the things That they Are saying
And it Resonated with Me because I'm thinking
That's exactly What I can see Happening is
We need to Make sure we are On
the same Page It's very Important because If
you don't have What's called From the very
Beginning Like Islam Does emphasize On You need
to Have some Kind of Compatibility Right And
you need To understand Before going Into that
Marriage You need to Make sure That you
are On a similar Page Common ground Yeah
You need to Speak very Honestly about What
are your Expectations What are my Expectations You
know What else Be really clear On what
you're Looking for And if we don't Have
that And getting to Know the person Studying
their Personalities Seeing how they Are in different
Contexts Like for Myself You know Like I
come To love and Marry two of My
children And you know That's one thing We
have made Sure we've done Like we haven't
Gone fast I just really Advise people Not
to go fast Take your time Let the
person Come over You know Mix with the
Family If it's You know The groom That's
coming To seek your Daughter for Example If
you've got Sons They can go Camping together
See their Temperament In different You know Situations
Do you know What I'm trying To say
Get to really Know the person And make
sure That this is really The right person
Because what I feel Happens a lot of
The time is Everyone's kind Of like rushing
You know Like love struck And rushing In
to get married But I am not Joking
I am seeing Such a fallout It's actually
Really sad I am seeing A massive fallout
Especially in our youth In the early years
Yeah And it's like Very young There's so
many There's just so many That are just
It's not lasting I don't even think It's
love struck I think it's just The idea
of being married Yeah Like you need So
don't let anyone Also don't let anyone Rush
you into marriage You know Just take your
time Make sure this You feel right About
this Do you think Is the pressure Coming
from parents Muslim parents Are wanting their daughters
Or sons to marry early Or is it
coming from Within the child That okay I
want to get married now I want to
do this It can be sometimes Like for
example When it's the girl It can be
like The groom is trying to Rush her
up Or his parents Are trying to rush
her up It's also self It can be
Many things Many things It comes from It
depends It's also a very natural Drive to
want to Couple up with someone And be
intimate With someone And you know It's a
natural And for Muslim young people Having boyfriends
Girlfriends is not an option So obviously marriage
Is very desirable For them You know Which
is fine Yeah But you know What you
were saying earlier About they step in And
it's the marriage idea That they're in love
with And you're suggesting That they should Really
take their time And get to know that
person In different contexts Especially when they're angry
Or when they're Conflicted And how they communicate
And how they resolve And one of the
key things To look for If you must
distill it down To something You know Look
for the degree To which that person Is
open to being Influenced by you And your
willingness To be influenced by them Because that's
a very Critical indicator Of to what level
That communication Is going to be fluid Flexible
And flex Between the two individuals So that
they are Able to come to A mid
-range On a particular topic Because if that
If that dynamic Is present Then no matter
What turbulence They encounter later on They can
flex with that Yeah And of course Respect
Enormous A hundred percent How each party Speaks
to the other And in terms of Expectations
And I think this is Really key This
is why I wanted you guys To take
on this Concept of the tree The core
beliefs Of each individual Need to be explored
You know Back at uni You know Professor
was telling us Successful marriages Occur between couples
That have the most Similarity Right And we're
Muslims Growing in the west And our root
systems Have been Not corrupted But disturbed Because
we're growing In soil That is not Particularly
compatible With our root system Yeah So we
have to make A lot of adaptations And
modifications And we might have Lots of things
In our root system That are diseased And
need to be cropped And grafted And healed
Right And that can happen If the couple
Have the essential skills Of the give and
take The respect The mutuality The I'm willing
to be influenced by Especially for the guys
Because for them To allow themselves To be
influenced By feminine energy Is a really big
deal It takes a lot of wisdom On
the part of a guy To be receptive
To a woman's influence Without threatening His masculinity
This isn't just A Muslim male thing No
This is general Of course Of course This
is general But if he's able To demonstrate
that Then you should know His confidence Is
right up there He's very confident In his
masculinity That's actually He's more confident Not the
lack thereof It takes a rule man To
be able to negotiate With a woman And
to be open To her influence Like we
know That Rasulullah Used to consult You know
His wife about Matters of war What would
a woman Know about war back then But
still It was the principle That I value
you I respect you I invite your input
And I value And can engage With your
interaction With me I think that was That
would be One of the one things And
when they're angry Just notice How they behave
When they're angry And deliberately Prod them into
conflict Deliberately make them Angry Yeah But just
to build on this Also just on the
Other side I'll be the devil's advocate Is
that we are We are also living In
an era In a time where Every Tom,
Dick And Harry Is you know Writing up
About their own Expert opinion On what the
red flag is Yeah This is a red
flag That's a red flag No stay away
Pull out Don't Everything suddenly Everything is like
A red flag Everyone's a narc Yes That's
right And so there is no I am
not saying You know be patient And yes
of course But again That element And notion
of Be patient I'm not talking about Abusive
We're talking Incompatibility Between personalities And hence you
are Seeing marriages Break down Three, four, five
Months after The event So this This issue
of Having too much Noise from the outside
You know Where there is Almost like a
textbook Prototype Yeah Of what the perfect marriage
is Because they will see A problem in
everything They do Because like This red flag
Disgusts me Or he did You know what
I mean You will end up Seeing a
list of All these things That you've read
On your Facebook And think Okay yeah He's
ticked that box Okay no no That's it
So labelling Has become an issue Not helpful
at all Yeah The labelling Researchers in marriage
Tell us that 69% Of issues And
problems In a marriage Are irresolvable Unchangeable The
dean tells you That half of your Hasanat
in marriage Are in marriage Because half of
your Tribulation is in marriage It's okay If
the guy Is not perfect Or the girl
Is not perfect But are you able To
come together And work through These differences And
evolve and grow Like develop Sabar Develop patience
If you're not trying Tested in marriage How
do you evolve Your character traits That's right
To rise to A more noble level Utilising
the skills Of your religion You know And
our religion Is the soil In which we
should Thrive And draw our Nourishment from We
have to make sure That's not corrupted That
goes Sorry to the core again When we're
looking At core reasons As to why marriages
Are breaking down Is that very point In
that there Is actually A disconnect Between us
And our spirituality Or our spiritual beings Whereas
you know Most will attest To the fact
That I am spiritual You know Whether it's
You know I invisibly look On the hijab
Or I have a beard Up to here
It's not about that So we Claim to
be Spiritual beings And religious And understand Our
teachings But in actual fact That's not the
case So for those of us Trying to
work With people That might be Troubled You
know Being mindful Of assessing The root system
first Is really important And in line With
expectations What is the expectation?
Let's articulate that Where does that come from?
Down the attitude Trunk And down to the
root system Where does that attitude Come from?
Is it something that You know Has been
embedded From social media Or early childhood experiences
Or just some random We're influenced Constantly Even
us We think like We're mindful adults We're
constantly Assaulted by influences Around us So if
you get To the core Of the underlying
Assumption Or belief And you can Rectify that
Borrowing From the din Then you have congruence
Over a period of time And then from
that Shift in Core belief You have a
shift Of attitude And then a shift Of
behavior And then skills building And so on
And then affective change At the level of
emotion And connection with other I think you
just Answered the question I was going to
ask you next Because I was saying What
role Do expectations have On how marriages go
And ultimately How long they'll last And also
including Expectations that people Have before getting Into
the marriage As well And how does that
affect Even expectations While they have During the
marriage I think you sort of Covered that
And what can we How much do we
need To change these Expectations in order To
make that marriage More viable It's like a
mechanic Being presented with a car You have
to go in there And troubleshoot But the
best way To do that Instead of troubleshooting
With each individual car You can do like
Mass reform By ensuring That all couples That
are planning To get married Go through a
compulsory Pre-marital course That is Islamically oriented
That is Psychologically sound That is Skills building
So they enter Into the marriage With very
realistic Expectations And a toolbox Of coping mechanisms
To manage that Initial turbulence Of the first
12 months Of marriage To minimise The risk
of divorce And then that program Can also
have Follow up Post marriage intervention And then
relapse prevention And when they hit A bit
of a rocky road They can get intervention
Pretty much straight away The people are familiar
With them And you know We just smooth
things out For them And then Are you
seeing this Offered in the community?
Not that I'm aware of Pre-marital courses
I know in the past There's been I've
seen a few here And there's a few
in there You've seen Often the pre-marital
courses So we can see some Like for
example Muhammad Reema He's run workshops And stuff
like that But I think everyone Needs to
start realising Like when I was doing When
I was reading Those studies I've been doing
This is not just in Australia It's actually
happening everywhere They're actually calling it Bahira Which
means It's a phenomenon It's a phenomenon Of
rises A rise in divorce We're seeing everywhere
Okay But what they're saying is There's very
strong Correlation With Modern society Like we've gone
through A massive change In the last hundred
years Okay A massive change Right In our
lifestyle In the demands Of our lifestyle Right
So we Because often What we're doing is
When we're looking At marriage problems We're just
looking At the At the You know At
the core With just the You know The
husband and wife But we're not looking At
what's going on Outside There's so much Let's
give ourselves A bit of credit here There's
a lot of stuff Going on There's all
these Extra demands That are happening And there's
been Cultural change That's happened The roles And
that's affected The roles Like the roles Inside
the household And then a lot Of the
arguments That happen inside The household Is over
roles as well You know I'm trying to
say So all of these things Have been
going on So if we look at That
we've got These extra pressures On us now
That's going to take us To do extra
efforts To try to stay In a stable
Kind of marriage You know What I'm trying
to say We've got to realise That we
actually We really are facing Like A far
greater Yeah a far greater We need to
change You know what I'm trying To say
Because of the Amount of pressures We are
You know The Muslim family unit Is facing
In this day and age It's going to
take More work from all of us To
try to keep These marriages together So we're
going to Have to look at We really
do need to Start looking at Some more
studies Of you know What to avoid We
might Like Because this world too Think about
our context In Australia We've got all these
You know Basically Most of the You know
Second generation now Right But they're all from
Different Cultural backgrounds And different families And different
expectations And different You're trying And then we're
trying To intermarry Yeah There's a lot like
that Happening now Even though I have to
say Like I just want people To understand
that Like for example Myself I was brought
up All my life in Australia And my
husband Had only been Nine months In Australia
from Egypt So it's not to say That
just because You Are from a Completely different
country That you can't have Inshallah A very
happy marriage Okay But what's important is That
you As I said Especially when you first
Like meeting with each other Primarily You need
to make sure That you're open And you
know That you feel that You're connecting And
that you know Isn't it Like you've got
to have that What they say Chemistry or
that Cohesion Yeah To a certain level And
then once you've got that That's the base
You know And then after that You know
Obviously there's other things You've got to do
like You're going to have to be patient
You've got to learn to be You know
You've got to learn to both Be ready
to compromise Certain things Like I'm sure my
husband Doesn't get everything Like I Remind him
sometimes I say look If you want an
Egyptian woman You could get married To an
Egyptian woman Are you married in Australia?
You know I'm sorry My mulukhia doesn't taste
like You know But that's You know That's
what it comes down to He didn't want
to marry You know Someone from his country
And I also didn't want to marry I
didn't want to marry An Aussie bloke You
know I'll be honest Just to be honest
We both had to compromise Certain things And
that's what it comes down to If you're
not ready to compromise And you're not ready
To be flexible Then it's going to be
Very hard for your marriage To work out
Yeah I think The biggest issue With That
affects expectations And correct me if I'm wrong
It's It's social media I was just about
to say that Yeah Because we are Exposed
to So much Way too much Fake realities
Yeah That is playing heavy On the minds
of both Men and women That's so true
Within the family unit And we never used
to see No How other couples used to
be Say 20 years ago When I was
a child Even back when I was at
uni There was I don't think there was
Instagram back then I'm quite old But I
never saw what No A happy married couple
Looks like apart from Real couples that I
knew Like my mum and dad You know
what I mean Absolutely But what makes it
worse Is that What social media presents It's
not And I've seen it first hand You
know I get a phone call From a
particular sister Who has just posted Amazing stories
About her family Her husband The surprise The
holiday And so forth To say I can't
do it anymore I need to get advice
Yeah As to the divorce process And I
said What?
But your Instagram story Doesn't say that Yeah
So these fake realities Yeah That is And
you know Yes age doesn't matter We're a
grown adult And we are influenced And these
do affect us Yeah So imagine Younger The
younger You know Going into They were born
into This social media world And that's all
that they've seen And they can see Really
intimate moments of Perfection Stuff that we have
Never seen before Perfection Yeah we were never
Exposed to that You're not going to see
Any arguments Or disagreements Between couples And they
think That that's the reality Or how they're
solved Yeah Yeah How they're solved Yeah Or
modelling Yeah These kids are not Taught to
do that So they walk into This like
dreamy state And a lot of the girls
Like you know Are really keen to leave
Their family of origin And start off this
Hollywood movie Yeah And going on And you
know With absolutely no Coping mechanisms Or wisdom
Or So social media Is a huge culprit
Yeah It's a contributor And it's really having
An effect on How long a marriage Can
last That's an extra pressure See we've got
all These different pressures Financial Cultural changes Social
changes And This And then social media Like
it's It's crazy It's a lot to deal
with Do you Do you think that Are
Muslim marriages More difficult In the west Than
in Our Muslim countries And do you find
That In the west Divorce is Just easier
Or more people are going Opting for divorce
Here in the west Muslims in the west
Are they opting for Divorce More than they
would In Muslim countries And if so What
would be the reason Behind that I think
Like I just want to Because I did
do that Do that research You've done the
research Yeah On So what we have to
Understand is Unfortunately I know we'd love to
Idealise But Divorce is actually On the rise
In Muslim countries And When I studied these
papers They actually showed A very strong correlation
With You know Like the Cultural And Economic
Changes That have Taken place Rapid Changes That
have Taken place In a lot of Those
Communities So And dealing With that And the
effect That that has On the family There's
a whole Lot of Factors Okay But Definitely
No If you're Going to talk About Are
we You know Is it Easier It's going
to Depend on the Socio-economic Background Because
you know Some of the Countries you're Referring
to Are very well Off And affluent So
a woman In that situation Might find it
A lot easier For example To To seek
Divorce If she's not Like feeling That that's
You know That she's Very very Deeply Unhappy
With her Marriage Whereas If you're Looking at
Other Muslim Countries Or other Muslim Communities Where
they Are very Like It's still Taboo There
No no Not Well yes Cultural Taboo But
also Financially She's Like doesn't Have a choice
So a lot of Women will just Opt
for Obviously to stay In a marriage Because
they have No other option Okay so That's
Obviously in Australia Well you're still Fine Believe
it or not We still do Have women
I do get Sometimes women Say to me
It could be A very severe Case as
well Mind you It could be Even a
DV Case But she Doesn't Can't leave Because
she doesn't Have any Financial means To be
able To support Herself So you do Get
those cases And that's Why we Would say
That we're Able to now Alhamdulillah Like refer
them To say National Zakat Foundation You know
So that's It's not Now an option That
she Has to stay In that Marriage That's
I Think Are Be The
Only Option So Just I Think Zakat Very
Important Because It can Be It Can Be
if I'm wrong, the pressures on women in
the West is huge, it's immense, because she
is more often than not at times breadwinner
or equal breadwinner.
She's the mother, the parent, even though she
may be in a relationship, could almost be
like the single parent, you know, she's having
to run the home and the household, care
for extended family.
Because the brides don't have help, they might
have a nanny or a driver, or they
want to send the kids to school or
cook.
Exactly, so they're willing to compromise because of
this issue, but I think one of the
key factors, I would say, if you were
to almost say that yes, it is easier
to get a divorce here than over there,
we have a no-fault system here, I'm
talking legally.
The only, I guess, delay is that you
have to be separated for 12 months.
I'm not talking Islamic, there's an entire legal
process, but legally speaking, you don't need to
go and prove and explain why you don't
want to be in that relationship.
As far as you're concerned, you only need
to be separated.
So in the Muslim countries, you have to
prove there's a fault, or I didn't know
that.
There is a somewhat, I mean, if you're
seeking Khulaa, I don't want to go into
it and stuff, there has to be some,
I guess.
They've got Islamic courts, like it depends on
which country you're in, and a lot of
things.
It's 936.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay, you know what, I think I'm going
to wrap it up now, but we're going
to argue, I'll ask a question that you
all can answer, and if you want, you
could even say it to the camera, I
suppose.
It'll be your advice to the audience.
For people who are going through marital issues
or issues in their marriage, what advice would
you give them to help them through it?
Or what advice would you give them, as
in where to go, who to speak to,
how to deal with it for yourself, whatever
advice you want to give them.
You can all go first, inshallah.
Alright, Wendy.
For me, what advice I would give is
my absolute genuine advice, I would ask them
to study hadiths relating to marriage and gender
roles, and I would ask them to practice
emulating the examples and the symbolism reflected in
the hadiths relating to marriage.
That's the best, most cost-effective, lasting strategy.
I actually loved how you mentioned gender roles,
and just openly like that.
That is a whole hour, I've been holding
back.
I'm like waiting for you to say something
about that.
I can't, because that's like two hours in.
Okay, so we need a follow-up episode.
Everyone will shoot me.
My ideas are very...
I love it, inshallah.
I think we would look into doing a
follow-up episode on that, because I think
that's something we do need to openly talk
about, and without any sort of, you know...
We should be proud.
No kind of like, if I should say
this...
Proudly say it.
Next time, inshallah.
I think I'll go last.
So I've basically got...
These are the three advices that I feel
are very powerful from the sunnah.
So the first one is, the Prophet ﷺ
said, مَنْ كَانَ يُؤْمِنُ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ فَلْيَقُلْ
خَيْرًا أَوْ لِيَسْمُطْ So whoever believes in Allah
on the last day, let them say the
good, or remain silent.
So that is such a powerful hadith.
Because, first of all, try to say the
positive things towards your spouse.
Try to appreciate what they do for you.
We tend to just...
We get into a rut of being negative
and critical, but your spouse needs to hear
positive encouragement and being thanked.
And avoid the bad words.
And especially if you're angry and you're having
a fight, avoid saying those bad words.
Because those words can stab the heart more
than a knife.
And sometimes you can never forget those words.
That's one thing.
And then the second thing is, how the
Messenger of Allah told us that he promises
a place in the middle of paradise for
the one who gives up arguing, even if
they are right.
So if you can put...
This is hard to do, but if you
can overcome your ego for the sake of
Allah, and just think about what the Messenger
of Allah promised you, that place in Jannah,
inshallah, you're having that argument, it's not worth
it.
It's not worth it.
Seek Jannah instead of trying to be right
in the argument.
And you'll see how much Allah will bless
your marriage, inshallah, right?
I'm not saying you shouldn't deal with your
issues.
But I'm just saying, in the heat of
the moment, it's not worth it.
It's trivial arguments anyways, that end up becoming
something so big, but it's...
Yeah.
And then the last one is how the
Messenger of Allah also says, that That gentleness
is not in anything except that it beautifies
it, right?
I love that.
Right?
That it doesn't get removed from something except
it makes it ugly.
So if you can think about that in
your relationship, it's about, you know...
Companionship.
Bringing that rahmah, showing that rahmah towards your
spouse, you know, showing that love, saying the
loving words, the beautiful speech, the beautiful way
of speaking to each other, all of those
things, doing the small acts of, you know,
random acts of kindness.
You look at the Messenger of Allah, like
some of the things that he would do,
the intimate, small things, they didn't have much
money, they didn't have anything, right?
But yet, he was purposely taking the cup
after Aisha, putting his mouth on the same
place to make her feel that love.
Yeah.
You know, things, just those small little...
Speaks volumes.
...intimate, intimate, you know, actions that he would
do to show how important and loved she
was, for example, you know what I mean?
And that makes her feel on top of
the world.
And that makes...
That's everything.
That's everything.
And that's how simple it gets, everyone.
Like it's just...
You don't need date nights.
No.
Yeah, it's just about your everyday interactions.
Being compassionate.
How are you today?
How are you?
How are you feeling now?
You know, being caring and following up, making,
you know, seeing...
Like when, for example, your husband sits down,
try to purposely go sit with him, don't
leave him alone.
You don't try to stay, just showing that
you're following up and you're caring about him.
It makes a world of difference.
That's beautiful.
This advice is gold.
Gold, yes.
I come to that.
It's so simple but so profoundly beautiful.
And obviously both ways.
Yeah.
Of course, of course, 100%.
Because there is an assumption, I'm sorry, I
know, there is an assumption that just because,
you know, the husband has been out at
work all day.
Yeah.
The wife's done nothing.
Yeah.
So it does go both ways and it
goes a long way.
Absolutely.
My advice would be before you end up
in my office, ask him for all that.
You have to have gone through all those
steps.
Mashallah.
And I do always ask, have you tried
your best?
So the avenues are first good, spiritual and
psychological.
Yes, yes.
And then come to...
Have you really, really exhausted all avenues?
Yes.
Especially when they're Muslim clients and couples.
Yeah.
And unfortunately, most of the times I am
preaching to the converted because it's the sister
who would have actually tried her best yet.
To salvage a relationship.
And she's dealing with potentially a husband who's,
you know, in denial that there are issues.
But she's completely checked out.
And I think that's the core.
I urge our brothers and sisters, both ways,
to identify that when someone is reaching, is
calling, screaming, yelling out for help in the
relationship and saying our relationship is in jeopardy,
it's actually almost at breaking point, take it
seriously and get the help.
There's no shame in it.
And only come to us when you've exhausted
all avenues.
And there's no shame in seeking that help.
And the fact that it's there now, it's
just like having medicine when you're feeling sick.
If it's there, you should actually go and
take it.
It'll help.
Inshallah.
And even see it at the bigger picture.
Take responsibility for the sake of the ummah.
Yes.
Because stable marriages lead to a stable ummah.
That's right.
And vice versa.
If we have like, if we just find
a sea of unstable homes, what is it
going to, what are the ramifications for our
ummah as a whole?
So if you can't necessarily, because you're just
so upset with your spouse, you don't feel
like you can, you know, take those, you
know, measures, do it for the sake of
Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and the ummah.
You know what I'm trying to say?
Because if everyone takes responsibility, we can inshallah
reverse this problem in the day of ta
'ala.
Wendy, you had said something before the camera
started rolling about the importance of the family
structure in Islam.
And that was so important.
Can you remember what you said?
If you could just, we can use that
as our final ending.
It's kind of like, last night I was
watching, two of my favorite people are Jordan
Peterson and Hamza Yusuf.
And my daughter kept telling me that there's
a talk where Jordan Peterson interviews Hamza Yusuf.
So very late into the night I was
watching Hamza Yusuf being interviewed by Peterson.
And one of the questions that he addressed
to Hamza was, you know, some of the
tenets of Islam.
And Hamza Yusuf said that our core beliefs
are, you know, the protection of six components,
including protection of property, protection of life, protection
of wealth, protection of family.
And clearly I forgot to add it.
It's actually, I can say it.
Tell me please.
So in Islam, so basically there's the protection
of the deen, the protection of life, the
protection of the akh, which is the mind,
then the protection of the honor, and reputation,
and then lastly is the wealth.
So it's those five things.
He might have put something else in there
as well.
But obviously the family unit is the core
stone of the ummah.
You know what I'm trying to say?
So it is imperative that all of us
start taking this seriously.
We need to look at the statistics, look
at what's happening, and think about what we
can all do as a community and as
individuals and as, you know, all of us.
How can we try to reverse the situation
that we are seeing, inshallah, for the future
of our community and ummah.
You know, a nice way to think about
it is, imagine like the ummah is a
garment that protects the ummah, and each family
is a thread within that garment.
So when that begins to disintegrate, we will
all pay for it.
That's right.
We will all pay for it.
A hundred percent.
Mashallah.
Okay ladies, that was such a riveting discussion.
And there were so many beautiful aspects to
it and so many deep aspects to it.
May Allah reward you all for giving us
your time tonight.
Inshallah, all our viewers found this very beneficial.
And that's the whole purpose of having these
discussions, is that we really hope that someone
at home is listening and it has, you
know, it starts off with individual change, little
changes, step by step, and slowly it builds
into something bigger.
Like you said, it's all little threads in
the ummah and it helps to make this
garment of the ummah more beautiful, inshallah.
And that's the whole purpose.
So, jazakallah khayran to all of you.
May Allah reward you immensely.
And to all our viewers watching at home,
thank you so much for tuning in tonight.
I hope you found, I hope you all
took something beneficial from this episode.
May Allah bless you all and protect everyone's
marriages and bless us with a wonderful life.
Assalamualaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh.