Naima B. Robert – Racism Will We See a Change Islam Channel Interview
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And welcome to Women's AM. You are joining
my class, Shlena, and we are doing to
do further discussion on the cover process
and racism
and
This topic is racism
and will we see change?
We have seen a lot of people get
involved in this discussions and much more people
listening than we have
or our generation has witnessed, really. There's so
many aspects to discuss and so many aspects
to touch on. So today,
I have with me the award winning author
and transformational coach, Naima b Robert.
Now Naima has been active within the community
for a very long time. She's been out
there promoting
Muslim literacy
and a whole load of other projects to
put the Muslim community ahead and forward.
And today, I know this particular topic touches
people in so many ways, particularly Naima. She
has a lot to say on this. So
I'm really grateful that we have her on
the our platform today.
Of course, this is a live show.
Take advantage of it. Call in. The number
should be appearing on our screen shortly.
Any questions? Any comments? I know we're broadcasting
to many countries in the world. Even in
Nigeria, I know you love this particular topic
and you're always supporting the show, so do
call in with your caution or comments.
Look, the purpose of talking is what?
Not just for the just to talk. Not
just to learn something, but to learn something
and utilize it to take action. So today,
our focus is gonna be on addressing ways
in which, inshallah, that we can move forward,
that we can see change, and how we
all individually
have a responsibility towards making that change, whether
it be within ourselves or externally, inshallah. Now
then,
sister Naima.
How are you doing today?
Very good. Much better that you're on the
show because I think
I know we had a discussion between ourselves
yesterday, and a lot of issues came up.
So there's a lot of things I want
us to touch on.
It might not all be particularly not not
not everyone.
It might touch touch a few nerves.
It might also motivate change. But what I
do want, and I know you will agree
with me for our views, to see this
as
a learning curve, that we really take something
from the situation. And
rather than taking offense to anything that we
as Muslims, we all should always be open
to seeing the flaws within ourselves, and the
purpose of Islam is to fix those flaws.
So today, we're gonna talk about some of
the problems within our own communities and what
we can do to change things in our
community and outside of inshallah. So Naima, first
and foremost,
we've since George Floyd's,
killing, we have seen a whole load of
protests,
a lot of debates, a lot of discussion,
a lot more people engaged than previously.
Yeah. From what you've been observing so far,
2 things. What have you observed?
What are your thoughts?
And how are you feeling as a woman
of mixed race?
Well,
I think that, you know, it's, it goes
without saying
that, you know, there is a seismic shift,
Not because of the protest, I don't believe,
because as I was saying to my my
sons,
there have been protests before,
and there've been protests worse than this before.
Okay? Especially in the US. Maybe not so
much something sparked in the US and then
spreading across the world. Not so much that,
but the level of, you know, the dissatisfaction
and anger on the streets in the US,
definitely we've been there before, many times, and
it's been way worse before.
And I
think what seems to be different this time,
and and it still baffles me to to
to this day, but you are seeing
institutions
actually
putting their hands up and saying, we need
to change
and then actually doing something. You know? So
whether those are institutions like police departments
or media outlets or even brands
that are putting it's it's as if they've
had the mirror put up to them for
the first time, it seems, and are actually
certainly verbally and from what we can see,
taking some action. And that's, I don't think,
is something that we've seen on this scale
before because
if you're on social media, which I know
that you are, you will see the amount
of soul searching that seems to be happening
where everybody's all of a sudden realizing that
it's not enough to just say, oh, I'm
not a racist, but to actively
be anti racist and actively work
to just stamp this out for for for
once and for all. So I I feel
that there's there's something different in the air
this time inshallah.
Can can I ask on that particular point
that you made about
being a not being a racist?
What is the difference? And I know it
might seem like an obvious question, but like
I said, we wanna see change, some sort
of change, inshallah, after this conversation.
Why is it not enough being,
not being a racist,
and why is that different from being an
anti racist?
Well, I think it go goes very much
down to the fact that, you know, a
lot of people
do kind
of put it on someone else. You know?
Like, well, I'm not like that, you know,
and very much kind of personalize it. When
when you see what's happening now and and
and, you know, once you once you are
aware
of the scale of the injustice, it's not
enough to just say, well, I didn't do
anything like like I'm okay.
You know, it really is a case of
do you stand for justice or not? Do
you stand for truth or not? And this
is specifically with Muslims because there may be
Muslims who feel the same way. Well, I'm
not a racist. I guess this is not
my problem,
but this is an injustice that is
pervasive
in our society. And so as people who
stand for truth and stand for justice
and who want for their brothers and sisters
what they want for themselves,
that should make us firstly look inwards
to do the work that we need to
do to unravel
any form of isms that we have in
our own hearts, but also to not accept
it anywhere around us. And I think being
anti racist,
firstly, is about educating yourself,
doing the inner work, and then it's about
making it
no longer socially acceptable
for people around you to be racist, for
the institution that you're in to be racist
without you calling it out. It becomes like
part of your social responsibility,
if you like, to actually actively work against
this type of discrimination.
And as I said, racism is one of
many other isms that we may carry silently
in our hearts. And as Muslims,
as people of Ihsan,
it's upon us to really
sit with ourselves
without the defenses,
sit with ourselves and say, how much of
this is in my heart? How much of
this kind of pride and arrogance and feeling
like I'm better than somebody else is in
my heart? And is this the way that
I want to return to Allah
Is this what I want to be in
the world, or do I want to walk
in this world differently?
That's sister Naima.
And you're gonna be beaten for this question.
Oh, yes. Islam is not racist.
There is no racism in Islam.
Very true. And the reason I say this
is because a lot of people have come
back with this argument on social media. And
I know that there there there's a problem
in giving that kind of response. But I
want us to break it down. Why is
it not enough to say there is no
racism in Islam, but was
most beloved to the prophet
Why is that not enough?
I love this line of questioning, Shahina. So
I'm not upset with you whatsoever.
Muslims saying,
oh, but there is no racism in Islam
is literally like somebody coming to you and
saying,
this is what happened to me in your
house, right? And you basically
closing the door and saying, yeah, can you
see what it says on the outside of
the door? No racism here, right? It's it's
Muslims using Islam as a shield
to avoid the discussion.
And as I said, I am going to
time and time again relate racism to other
isms, whether that's sexism,
ableism, ageism, whatever it is.
You will find that people when they want
to avoid the conversation,
they will invoke
Quran and Sunnah. They will invoke
the Islamic precedent. They will invoke the Islamic
theory,
but the the reason we're having this conversation
is because the Islamic theory is not being
practiced. Right? That's why we're having this conversation.
If it was being practiced, there would be
no conversation. There would be no accusations and
there would be nothing to talk about. So
when it comes to
Islam is not racist,
Islam gave women rights, you know, Islam has
respect for all human beings. We know this.
The reason that there is a conversation is
that Muslims unfortunately are not putting
Quran and Sunnah into practice
in their daily lives. And that's why for
me,
it's just like a straw man argument.
It's not an argument. It's it's a fact
that we all know Islam is of course
not racist.
Now now that we've agreed that, put that
to the side, and let's talk about what's
really happening on the ground.
I hope that makes sense for the viewers
because it's just a defense mechanism. I know
it's it's comfortable, and sometimes we feel like
we need to say it to defend Islam,
but nobody's accusing Islam of anything. It's Muslims
that may be accused of holding certain ideas,
not Islam.
No. And it's is it not important that,
okay, we we know that Islam is famous
for forbidding racism.
Islam forbids racism. Allah forbids racism. The prophet
forbid racism. But how do we now take
that understanding
and work to ensure that that is implemented?
Is this not what the focus should be
rather than stating the obvious?
Exactly. Because it it is about
you can't solve a problem unless you've acknowledged
it. This is the thing, and that's why
I think a lot of black Muslims past
week, 2 weeks were getting triggered
every time people would say, oh, but Islam
says this or says that. The reason it's
so hurtful is that I know what Islam
says. You know, we we we we read
the same books. We we know the same
deen,
but I have not experienced that. That has
not been my lived experience. I have experienced
the opposite. And in fact, on another show
I was on the imam just this week,
he went to 2 different Masajid
and in those 2 different Masajid where they
spoke 2 different languages, I won't mention which
languages,
they he met people who were referring to
black people as monkeys.
These are people who could potentially have black
Muslims who come to their masjid or try
to come to their masjid. Not necessarily reverts
either because there's this stereotype that all black
Muslims are reverts, but there are plenty
of born muslims who are black from Africa
and from around the world. So you imagine
now the experience of
that woman, that man, that family coming into
a Masjid
where the Muslims of that Masjid look at
them as animals
and and refer to them in their language
as monkeys openly.
That that is problematic.
That is problematic. And if we can't even
acknowledge
our own bias,
there is no hope.
Once you can sit and listen and say,
you know what?
You're right.
We do hold these ideas.
We did hear this. We always thought that.
Then we can start to cleanse. But until
you acknowledge that you have a problem, there
there there can be no solution. That's why
it's so important to allow the conversation to
take place.
You know what, Naima? This is not the
first time I've heard stories like this. There
have been numerous stories
of brothers and sisters going to the masjid.
And masjid is something we're coming to because
masjids play a huge part in this conversation.
But
we know
Africa
came under Islam long before Asians did or
started Asia did and many other countries did.
We know that. And there's there's
a huge population of Afghan Muslims who who
were the bigger players when it came to
the spread of Islam and what Islam is
today.
But there are also people who do revert
to Islam, particularly a lot of black people
and people who are Muslim who walk into
the masjid
with this concept that our bond, the the
bond of brotherhood and sisterhood is one that
is greater than blood.
Yeah. But then you walk into a masjid.
In what we call a progressive society such
as London, you walk into a masjid
where you are supposed to feel safe. There's
one place you're not supposed to feel like
you're less because of your skin color.
But Yeah. Then your so called brother or
sister makes a comment such as that that
is so anti black and racist and haram.
They put aside the concepts of it being
haram, but the dagger to the heart.
I have been going there and cry.
Yeah. Yeah. Because of doubt in the heart.
And I don't
I don't understand when we will wake up
to some of the fraud within us
and acknowledge that, look, we've got a problem.
Mhmm.
That there's nothing wrong in saying we have
a problem.
There's no shame in that. There's humbleness in
that.
There's a beauty in that acknowledging we do
have a problem.
I'm not just talking about the Asian community.
I'm talking about pretty much every single community
there is a black anti blackness. But we
know about our own.
So the step towards change is acknowledging we
have a problem and realizing there's no shame
in saying that. There's shame in having that
problem. There's no shame in acknowledging that problem
and now asking, okay, what do we do?
Yeah. Exactly.
And now to bring the masjids into that
conversation, Naima,
masjids
are the hub and the beating heart of
the community. If they're not beating heart, they
need to be the beating heart of this
community. Because if you go to other countries,
like I went to Bosnia,
subhanallah.
The in Bosnia,
you had the assistants who weren't covering and
you people who weren't
They did football matches. They had so many
other activities that serve the community. It was
a place of service, not just a place
of prayer.
So the question I want you to answer
after we come back from break is what
part do masjids play and what do we
need to shake ourselves up and be a
part of that change? But for just,
thoughts, we're gonna go off for a break.
Don't go anywhere. When we come back, we
will answer that question and much more inshallah.
See you in a bit.
Has, you know, given me this dream of
me performing Hajj in a time when I
would have liked to perform Hajj? For me,
that was a sign that I've gotta go.
It was almost like it was in slow
motion.
Not just because the people moving slowly, but
literally felt like one of those movies where
you're like something appears in front of you,
like
and I just burst out crying. I was
sobbing.
I was
I wasn't delirious, but I was like
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Assalamu alaikum, and welcome back to Women's AM.
You are joining my friend, Nina, and you
have to the support of the people that
I have offered on this day.
So the topic is I can understand
further
and and being a part of that change.
So before we went to break, I asked
sister Naima
what place the masjids have all responsibility they
have and how they can be the beating
heart of this community in ensuring that we
cleanse ourselves of not all the different isms
that we have, including racism. So, Sisaneh,
if you can, tell us
what how central are masjids in being part
of that change? Because quite frankly, unfortunately, a
lot of the racism happens in the masjids
themselves.
You know,
miss Mila, I I'll be honest with you.
I would like imams
to really
just
be be also aware of the role that
they play
within the the masjid
in the sense that
people respect the imam.
You know? In general, people have a lot
of respect for the imam. He's, you know,
a respectable member of the community
and people listen, you know.
And I I I hear time and time
again,
why does no one talk about this on
the member? Why is this not addressed in
the khutbah?
And I would just love for imams to
come together to say, you know what? Let's
have a symposium,
okay, of the community and Imams and say,
what are the issues
in our communities?
And how can we really radically change?
Well, how our communities operate? They have the
power from the member to change minds, to
open minds. And for them to really kind
of step up and say, you know what?
If this is my community,
I want this to for the imam himself
with his team and with the community to
have a vision,
a vision of the kind of masjid they
want to create. Not physically,
not the carpets, not the wudu area,
but the atmosphere,
the activities, the support that the masjid gives
to the community Because they have power from
that member to change so many situations and
call out so many individuals. And I don't
know whether they really
take on you know, I don't know whether
they really do that because so many issues
that we have On that issue on that
question of how other the imams have, Layma,
I I disagree
slightly personally from what I understand in terms
of how the masjids are run. I think
imam definitely are central in terms of
being the ones to be in the member.
But in terms of the consent and those
who give the
authorization in terms of what you talk about
and what you do, That, I think, comes
from the central committees in the masjid. So
isn't it that we need to ensure that
the right kind of people are running the
masjid? And if not that, at this edge
there needs to be something,
some sort of body that's going into the
masjids. And
at least telling these people these are the
issues, and this is what needs to be
done, and this is the purpose of the
masjid. Because I don't know how much power
imams really have if those who are running
the masjid and making the decisions and allowing
them and enabling them to have these conversations.
Yeah. I think I think that definitely you
know, I I you're you're 100%
correct, and
I'm bit I'm disconnected from Masjid culture. So
I know that, yes, in masajid, the Masjid
committee is a huge thing. And it's a
shame, you know, if you have got a
visionary imam who basically he's just paid to
do the prayers, and that's it.
But definitely addressing the issue from the mimba,
making sure that any instances
of isms
are called out immediately. That is really important
because
if you have a community where certain behavior
is not acceptable, people will stop doing certain
things as you know, because there are places
where, you know, if you go there and
you're not dressed a certain way, you're gonna
feel it. And we complain about that because
people want to feel welcome, but that power
can sway the other way as well. If
you're in a community where certain behavior,
if you do that,
you're not gonna feel welcome or someone's gonna
actually say something to you. Little by little,
people will start to say, maybe this is
not the place for me to act out
my microaggressions.
Maybe I need to behave differently in this
space
because this is the culture of this particular
community.
That's right. And and the culture can be
changed.
When when we see all the mosque open
days,
there there is the masjids have a lot
of power. Whoever is within those masjids, they
have a lot of power. All the open
days that we focus on, all the,
the,
about anti Islamophobia,
all the open door days that we have.
And there's a whole lot of build up
and a buzz around that, especially welcoming the
non Muslim community to come into the Masjid
and see what Islam is about.
Before we even, yeah, do that,
but side by side, we've got so many
problems within our own community. The same masjid,
do you not think need to have some
sort of open days for the community and
to address an anti racism day, anti blackness
day,
you know, an anti domestic violence day? Yes.
Why are we not getting the same sort
of
emphasis on those issues? Antisexual Abuse Day. Mhmm.
Those are things that are rife in our
community.
Racism is one of them. Racism, domestic violence,
sexual abuse. There's so many drugs. There's so
many other things
that
are those instead of just focusing on what
the outside world thinks of the Muslims,
are those not the things that we need
to emphasize on? And do we not have
so much power to change our thinking and
the culture through those avenues?
Yeah. 100%.
I think that's a that is an amazing,
you know, perspective to have on it. And,
you you know me. I I don't
I don't subscribe to performative Islam.
I really I understand
the the, the impetus to give dawah and
to to to go out there and preach.
But my my concern has always been
when Muslims at the moment are doing dawah
out, whether it's Regents Park, whether it's, you
know, to their colleagues, etcetera, giving people pamphlets,
books to read,
etcetera. It's like you've got an invitation
to a beautiful party.
Right?
It's an invitation to a gorgeous party, the
best food. Right? The most beautiful location, everything.
Right? You're giving people this invitation.
But when they come to that party, they
accept the invitation to the party, and they
come to your
place, your house is a mess.
That is what it's like giving dawah today
because people come to Islam
based on the invitation,
right, based on what they were promised. They
were told you're gonna be, you know, like
a newborn baby. It's 1 ummah. You know,
we're accepting of everybody. You know, this is
your family now and all of this
to to to take the invitation and then
to come in and find that it basically
it doesn't translate to real life. You know,
it's it's just an invitation. It's just a
story, but the reality on the ground is
the house is messed up. It's like you
have sisters, brothers, especially sisters, coming into the
deen, with invitation. Right? And they're told, oh,
women are are respected in Islam. Women have
so many rights in Islam. When you get
married, your husband should do this and this
and this. They they accept the invitation,
and people say, you know, get married, you
know, your your Muslim husband should treat you
like this.
Wait for them to get married now
and see the kind of life that is
waiting for them. SubhanAllah. Since you know this
and I know this and the problem is
everyone knows it,
including the imams,
but everyone nobody wants to speak. It's much
easier to give dawah
and present a beautiful face of Islam
than to actually do the dirty work of
cleaning out our own house.
So for me,
there will be always people who have to
go out there and give dawah. May Allah
bless them and give them all the tawfiq.
As for the rest of us, our job
starts here with our own selves and our
own families and our own communities because it's
for me, it's it's it's it's
shameful
to have so much emphasis and money and
time and resources spent on dower, when really
the home that you're inviting them to is
falling apart, and you need to do some
serious cleaning and some serious DIY.
On that note, do you think because I
personally haven't seen this amount of conversation and
dialogue within the Muslim community itself, judging by
social media and the people that I'm talking
to, with regards to anti blackness, since the
protests
kicked off and the killing of George Floyd.
There were a handful of people that were
talking about it. But I am seeing a
lot more people responding and a lot of
people asking, what shall I do? I
so that kind of conversation is happening. But
do you see
2 for 2 fronts, change happening within our
community,
and do you see change happening generally as
a society?
I'm I'm hopeful. I'm hopeful that things will
change mainly because the conversations have been so
widespread.
So I would say, you know, I I
I can see Muslim communities and organizations
kind of like taking a step back and
saying, wow.
I never looked at it that way before.
So, for example, when they're being called out
for the lack of diversity. So say we
say a Muslim brand
being called out for the lack of diversity
in their branding, for example, you know, that
may have been rumblings on the ground before,
but now it's a big issue. And I
think you will see
people moving differently. I think you will see
organizations
just having it in mind that this panel
is really
Desi or or this panel is really Arab.
Just like if you remember Shahina,
10 years ago,
there were no women on any panels, if
you remember.
Yeah. No women at any conferences speaking,
and certainly, certainly not any women on a
poster.
You would never see that. Right?
That changed because women star sisters started making
noise. Sisters started critiquing it. Sisters started complaining.
Sisters started
pointing out that, you know what? I'm not
supportive of this because you're saying that the
only voice that is allowed in our community
is the male voice. And that that conversation
happened.
Those that soul searching took place. And I
just wanna share this with you quickly. I
spoke with the the the the the founder
of one of the very old organizations in
London, Dawah Organizations.
And he said, sis, we need you to
come in to inspire the youth. The youth
are losing their Islam. And so we want
you to come and do various things, blah
blah blah. And he said to me,
through the nineties, the eighties nineties,
we did not invest in the sisters.
We did not invest in the women.
And now we're reaping the fruits of that.
Because remember, if you remember those days, women
were you get married, you have children, you're
not seen and you're not heard and you
stay at home.
And so there was no development, there was
no uplifting of women, there was no respecting
of women's position or voices or authority or
perspectives. And
or voices or authority or perspectives.
And because of that, that it's like you're
now a man walking with a limp. You're
trying to go forward, but this leg is
weak. Right? So this is what he said
to me, and I thought that's really,
that's a real eye opener that you've stepped
back and you've looked and you've thought
this is one of the reasons why our
community is in the state that it's in
because we ignored the women. And now, masha'allah,
they're trying to, you know, to trying to
make changes. But you see what I'm saying
is change is possible.
Culture changes. We are changing culture all the
time. So culture is not a static thing
that was set in the past. It's being
created and recreated all the time. So I
am hopeful
that this will spark a change of its
own. And in 5, 10 years time,
the conversation will be at least slightly different.
And I think I think it's a great
example of how change can happen. And you're
right. 10 years ago, you barely saw any
women, let alone perform poetry,
on a platform.
Now, we have a lot of female Muslim
poets. And that came about because we dug
deep. We studied. We understood. We look at
our history. I thought, hang on. Poetry is
a part of Islam. Historically, it was We
made I don't know.
We made Yeah. Noise. We shot on top
of our lungs, and the change happened.
Yeah. Yeah. We need to do the same
for this. Yeah.
But what within that, a lot of other
conversations are happening, Naima.
And I know excuse me. We have a
couple of more minutes before we go to
break once again.
But there's a whole discussion, and I don't
know how deep you wanna go with this
discussion particularly today. But because of the anti
blackness within the community, because of the lack
of involvement of black communities within our own
community,
There has been a move towards the black
community creating some of their own spaces.
Now the question is,
is that the best thing to do, or
is it not? Because the argument put forward
has been, hang on. This is gonna create
disunity. What is your perspective on that?
It's a tough one, Shahina. Yeah. You really
got me on the spot there because, you
know, I think as we mentioned yesterday,
people feel comfortable amongst their own. Right? And
I say their own in inverted commas because
their own changes
depending on the situation.
At some points, our own is just women.
We just wanna be with women.
No shade to you guys, but we just
wanna be with women, you know. And in
certain spaces
being with women, you feel like you belong,
you're at home. Yeah. Other times you wanna
be with moms. Maybe you're a mom of
young children. And so the people you belong
with are other people with young children because
you know how life is with young kids.
Right? At other times, you wanna be with
people who are intellectual or who have studied
Islam. That's where you feel you belong. Other
times, you just wanna be people who speak
your language or who understand
you or your history or your culture or
whatever. So
I think it's a bit rich to say
to any minority Muslim group that you shouldn't
want spaces
for yourselves. I think that
is something that you'll see in every community.
You know? If the Bengali community wants to
be together, they have a space for that.
The Kurdish community, Turkish community, you know, they
they can they can congregate
and relax. And I think that black Muslims,
obviously, were not all the same. You know,
there's a huge Nigerian population. There's Somali populations
who will also sometimes gravitate to their own.
But then other times, it may be just
black Muslims just want to be in the
majority
and want to see themselves reflected
in the event or the lineup. And so
yeah. Yep. No. I think I think that's
a really nice way of having explained it.
It really breaks down
why people kind of want that space. But
I do want to come back back to
that just a little bit more after the
break just to give ourselves, an opportunity to
really clarify and sort of crystallize this,
need for having some of your own space,
basically. But as I said, the viewers don't
go anywhere. Once again, it is a live
show. If you do want to join in
on the conversation,
please feel free to do so. See you
back in a bit. Tell them how they
come.
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Assalamu
alaikum, everyone. Thank you for joining me on
Women's AM. It's not just my stuff. I
have the lovely Na'aina B, Robert, on the
show with me. And we've been having a
wonderful conversation.
A fruitful conversation, I believe. And I hope
I view views can really take away something
from this.
Now we talked about racism within our community.
We talked about how the masjid is gonna
play a part in being a part of
this change.
And I think the final discussion we had
before we went to break was
the black community wanting some space of their
own, and that sort of being labeled by
other Muslim communities as segregation
and, something that would result in disunity. You
you really explained that we really broke it
down in that this sort of all of
us with the
with the with the different race, we have
so many different aspects in our life. When
we're young mothers, we want to be among
young mothers who understand our situation, who get
what we're going through without having to explain.
And I completely can relate to that one.
Sometimes we want to be with just a
in an intellectual surrounding.
Sometimes we want to be around those who
have something in common with us. Everyone has
their own space. Then Goddess do have their
own space.
The families have their own space. Other kids
Arabs have their own space. And I think
it would be very rich of us to
say that the black community shouldn't create their
own space, considering that we didn't we
we are part of the reason why
black people want that space in the 1st
place. We we did exactly need them. We
have we just want that community into our
space. So,
but
regardless, even with so without even without that,
even without the lack of lack of welcome,
every community, even within the black community, you
have different group. You have the Nigerians. You
have the Somalia. You, you have the Jamaican.
You have other sometimes even they would want
to be amongst their own. Nigerian won't be
with Nigerian. It's just a human thing. You
wanna be with people you have something in
common with. Yep.
Yeah. Exactly. And and this is why I
was gonna say that it's okay.
It's not a racist thing. It's okay. You
know? I mean, I think there is a
time
when the whole community should come together,
and that space should be
reflective of and respectful
of
the the diversity within the Muslim community. I
think there's a time for that. There's a
space for that. And also when it comes
to, you know, physical representations.
So if it's if it's panels
or TV shows that are supposed to be
universal
Muslim
TV shows, universal Muslim books, for example,
there needs to be an awareness of the
diversity that the inherent diversity within the Muslim
community
to make sure that everyone sees themselves reflected.
So when you're when you're claiming to do
something that is for all Muslims,
you need to be mindful of how diverse
your representation is. But if it's not about
the diversity of Muslims, if it's just, you
know, it's a Turkish thing, it's okay. Like,
it's okay for it to be a Turkish
thing. It's okay for it to be a
Somali wedding, you know? And it's also okay
for
us. And I think I think sorry. To
be honest,
I think a lot of this will die
out with the next generation
because our firstly,
the generation our children are much less cultural
than even our us or our parents. So
there's that. But secondly, our children have grown
up in much more diverse surroundings,
and they're much more familiar with the cultures
and the norms of other people, and also,
like, respectful of them, and probably they think
they're pretty cool. So I think you will
find in the next generation, my prediction
is that there will be a lot more
mixed marriages,
a lot more mixed gatherings,
a lot more spaces that feel much more
diverse because the community is is melting and
it's that whole melting pots melting pot analogy.
I think that you'll see it in the
next generation. So as you said about the
masajid,
once the youth
rise up and become the people who organize
things, who become the organizers of events, They
become the the organizers of of trips and
activities, and they start to take more control
in the masjid.
We will see those environments changing. I'm I'm
100% sure of
Alhamdulillah. And I think
just to leave people with hope. But I
I I personally am already saying that. I
know personal individuals who work in the charity
sector who make a point of ensuring
that there is representation.
Yep. And, so I I think you're right.
With each generation, that will change. But but
we do want the change to be quicker.
And that would help by us just taking
a step back and listening and learning and
understanding and reeducating ourself. Yeah.
Life life our entire life will be reeducation.
Education doesn't stop till our last breath. So
Exactly. Maybe we can speed it up a
bit. It's not a bad thing. But before
we move to the next part of the
conversation, I wanna bring in our caller who's
been waiting.
Sisters.
This is Mary. I'm from Watford. We chatted
yesterday on the subject quite similar in a
way.
So, sister, can you just say just repeat
your name? Mariam.
Mariam, you called in yesterday?
Yes. I have. Yes. How are you? Just,
to make sure I can hear you, please,
team. Put put our lovely sister's,
volume up so I can hear.
Yes, sister. Go ahead. Is it so I
just wanted to contribute a bit because, again,
I think it's some beautiful subject that we
have.
So personally, again, I'm a black Muslim woman,
or I should say I'm a woman Muslim
black, because I think the way I'm putting
the word is important. I'm I'm a woman
first.
And I think for me, there is
nothing
wrong with creating fruits.
And again, I can only speak for black
people, and I will say again why. I
think yesterday when we touched on the point
of,
you know, the subject of yesterday, I think
it's important at the moment what is needed
within the black community
to understand
our own history and this is still missing.
So I think that
before we are capable of telling the world
about our own history,
we need to understand our own history. And
for us to do that, we first need
to come together as black people. It's not
about rejecting
within our own color,
within our own community,
understand our own history. I'm from Senegal originally,
and I can tell you me because I
know, because I've done the research what happened
a 1000 years ago in Senegal.
Because being black is not about slavery. Slavery
only happened 400 years ago.
Being black is about having had a history
before. And if we go back a 1000
years ago, 2000 years ago, we know or
the history is there, but that history seems
to be buried, and we need to take
it out. And for us to take it
out, for us to teach our children, for
us for us to teach our brothers and
sisters, black brothers and sisters, sisters, we first
need to create a group between us. And
once we all understand, once we are all
on the same level, we can then go
out to other communities,
speak Muslim, speak Caucasian, being Asian, tell them
guys this is our history
because that's why we're missing in my opinion.
Thank you. Mariam, thank you. Thank you so
much.
You've you've touched on so many, good points.
We we'll come back to inshallah.
Sister Miriam also, she joined in yesterday on
the call and made some fascinating suggestions.
And I again, and I'm
you you probably echo this, that there's
a so the sister was saying from what
I picked up was that the black community
do need to come in together and also
to educate themselves.
And this doesn't mean rejecting other communities.
And there there's that. And also, I think
when it comes to the whole decolonizing
Islamic studies in that, I think it seems
to be,
because
there's certain communities here a lot more dominant
and because they came here they were here
for longer. They came here before other communities
did. Sometimes,
Islam feels a bit dominated by a particular
culture, but Islam doesn't really come from culture,
does it? Islam comes from Quran and Sunnah.
And
I I think
that we've left out certain parts of our
Islamic history that really probably would help us
in sort of moving forward and cleansing us
of some of the isms that we have
within us. So just to address that first,
Naima, this is, to somebody else's point about
that that community come together and educating themselves,
especially on Islam
as well. Yeah. No. I mean, 100%,
sis, and I just want to thank her
for for coming on. And, you know, this
is this is what I think makes a
lot of Muslims uncomfortable about this conversation is
that we are talking about a race of
people, black people.
And people feel like, you know, but are
you black or Muslim first? Like, you know,
like, what's more important to you? You know,
people kind of are pushing you to choose.
And again, I want to draw an analogy
to say that we are all living at
the intersections of different identities. So Shahina, you
and I are both women.
So doesn't matter our skin color. You and
I are both women. And so when there
is a woman's issue,
we're gonna feel it. Okay? And that's gonna
be something that we will put probably feel
a lot more than somebody who's not a
woman. Right? As brown women, black women, brown
women, we have a lot of the same
problems. So on that basis, you know, like,
we understand each other and we can come
together on that. When it comes to the
black experience
in the world,
we have our own work to do. We
have our own it's not even work per
se as healing. As the sister mentioned,
a lot of black people do not even
especially in the diaspora. Okay. So in the
west
do not even know their own history.
And certainly,
the focus on slavery
in black history month and post slavery narratives
in black history month is not helpful at
all.
So definitely for myself, I know that one
of the decisions that I made as a
result of all of this was that I
am gonna go way back with my children
and show them who we are and who
we have always been in terms of building
up that sense of rootedness,
groundedness
of having something to be proud of, something
to celebrate,
something to help you hold your head up
high.
And I don't see that there's anything wrong
with that, especially
especially when you're living in a society
where black is you're told all the time
black is is is dirty, black is is
bad, black is not beautiful. You know, your
your Afro hair is not attractive, your nose
is too big. All of that messaging is
extremely damaging
to us and our children. So we kind
of need to decolonize our own minds, and
then hopefully, that will filter out to the
wider community because then we can start to
actually teach others. But before we've done the
work ourselves,
it's a lot of, lip service, I'm afraid.
So we need to we need to do
the healing ourselves as black people. I agree
with the system.
And I think also, correct me if I'm
wrong,
those who are educated, those who are in
scholarly positions, those who are studying history, because,
definitely, I see in my social media network
a lot of figures who really have studied
history and who are starting to bring a
lot of history,
back into the limelight.
So things such as, so for example, that
there were
black people, individuals
in India before British colonization
who actually had extremely senior positions, even positions
of governorship.
And that and they climbed the ladder because
of the ability. And there wasn't any restrictions
due to the color of their skin. So,
which was stuff like this that needs to
be celebrated and brought to the forefront. So
even Timbuktu being one of the most learned
centers. Even now, if you go to Timbuktu,
which is an African country,
you will find
old old school books that predict anything that
we have in other subcontinent.
Yeah. Yeah. But, also, how important is it
us as the non black community, Naima, that
we is it do we see this as
part of our history too being Muslims? And
is there something for us to celebrate rather
than feel rejected by
or belittled by?
Is there something for us to celebrate? Because
this our Islamic history due to which we
today are Muslims.
Yeah. I mean, one of the things that
I am so grateful for is that when
you study the Seera,
the sera is like a slap in the
face
for all our issues. Like, it's a slap
in the face to to all the isms
that we mentioned, the sexism,
the, racism,
the ableism.
Okay? How many examples can we find of
people where the prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam
lifted people up
even though they were young? Right?
Lifted people up and gave them positions
and respect and love even though they were
physically unappealing.
So the the pore,
it didn't matter whether you were pore, whether
you what color your skin was. And I'm
not gonna say black because I actually hate
it when people say, oh, you know, such
and such and such and such, you know,
and and and and he was black. As
if all these things, these good things could
not exist with the fact that he's black.
And, oh, by the way, you need to
know that he's black. No. Any skin
color, whether you are poor or rich, whether
you were, you know, physically able or not,
whether you were young or old, the prophet
celebrated the essence of those people and lifted
them up
so that they could stand with pride. That's
why those young boys could lead armies because
they were given the opportunity. You know? And
in our society, we do have an attitude
towards the youth where they're just dumb. You
know? They don't know anything. Right? So when
I say isms, it's across the board. So
the Seera has the keys.
If we look carefully,
the Seera has the keys to show us
the true model of an Islamic society and
Islamic community. Masha'Allah. When it comes to the
treatment of women, when it comes to the
treatment of minorities, when it comes to the
treatment of of people of a different skin
color or different ethnicity,
the serum has the key.
And I think, unfortunately, we're just running out
of time. I think I need to bring
you back in. A But, there's so much
to touch on, even the fact that a
lot of the Sahabas were actually black. And
we don't know this, because when
you see stories about them, also, for example,
a film like message,
that is white actors.
Yeah. So if we're not putting forward what
people really look like and how they were
and who they were, how will we know?
And how will we be educated? But before
we end,
I will we have, like, 30 seconds.
What is your final message, taking message, and
visions for Muslims and Islam going forward, Naima?
Listen, Muslims
get the memo. Okay? This is a moment
in our history. And if we seize this
moment, we can actually change the trajectory of
this community. So let's not waste this opportunity,
because there's here in everything.
So let's take the here from this community,
the situation, from this conversation, and let's move
it forward so that our children and our
children's children can look back and say, that's
when things changed for us. That's when we
became
a more
prophetic community inshallah.
Thank you so much, sister so
much for being with us. I think that's
a perfect way to conclude the show. I
don't need to add any more to that
other than
to you for being on the show. And
inshallah, we'll try our best to have you
back again. And to you, the viewers, for
watching. May Allah bless the show. May Allah
put in our discussion. May Allah enable you
to take something good away from us and
forgive us if we have offended or made
any mistakes. That was not our intention. May
Allah bless us. May Allah educate us and
may Allah brought us success
in all aspects. I mean, until next time,
take care.
The Hajj became obligatory
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1 would not know the purpose of Hajj
unless he answers 3 questions.
1, the reason why should one go for
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that those which are performed during the time
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Each year Ramadan approaches, we all set ourselves
goals and achievements we want to have accomplished
once the 30 days are up. We all
want to develop in our deen, gain knowledge
and get into a good habit whether it
be remembering a short dua or praying our
sunnahs,
helping the ummer arranging a talk about the
suffering of our brothers and sisters around the
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But, we're all humans and 10 days into
our new habit we start struggling with maintaining
the same kind of enthusiasm
we started out with. But, some interest in
research has found that it only takes 21
days to form a habit.
Habits are essential to daily life. They help
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bad habits can hold us back and prevent
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This theory called the 21 day habit practice
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whether you're trying to lose weight or just
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consists of 5 steps.
Step 1. Clear your intentions to make sure
you really want to achieve your stated goal.
Once you have decided you truly want to
develop this habit, you must write down your
intentions
using positive affirmations including the reasons why.
Step 2. Next, you must rid yourself of
any distractions or weaknesses.
Anything you know that might pull you away
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that you include the reasons why you want
to achieve these goals and this will motivate
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Step 4 is to celebrate your progress. Keep
yourself motivated.
Get your family and friends involved.
Lastly, it's important to steer clear of negative
people. Anything that might drive you away from
your goal. After 21 days, it is thought
that your new habit will be fully embedded
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So, this Ramadan, why not try and get
into the habit of reading the Quran each
day, learning an ayah, or even reading the
seerah?
Ramadan is a perfect time to focus and
try and achieve things you've always wanted to,
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Developing a beneficial habit, A habit you know
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Don't set unrealistic goals or pressure yourself and
congratulate yourself each day.
At the end of the 21 days, you
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that will weigh heavy on the day when
it counts.
I
want to take you back
to the beginning,
to the beginning of
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human being.
And the reason I want to go back
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point when Allah first created the first human
being,
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to share with you an awareness
of what the plot and the plan
of the enemies of the human beings, of
the enemies of morals, of the enemies of
good, what they planned
from that time until today, and will stay
going till the hereafter, or until the world
ends. The plan
of Iblis himself.
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