Naima B. Robert – Discussing infertility @farah dualeh and her new book @tughrabooks Taking Control A Mu
AI: Summary ©
AI: Transcript ©
Assalamu alaikum guys.
Let me know if you can hear me,
if you can see me, if my sound
is okay. I've got my phone propped up
on my computer and I'm hoping
it's not going to impact the sound. We
are live. It is a beautiful Tuesday night.
Masha'Allah. I
am going to be going live with a
very very special sister to talk about a
very special book which I'm going to show
you in a minute and you may have
seen because I have
particular book,
Taking Control,
a Muslim woman's guide to surviving infertility.
I have been talking about it for a
little while, and here is the author.
Oh
god. Author. Published author. One of my clients.
How are you doing, sis?
I'm doing amazing.
How are you?
I'm so glad that we're doing this. I'm
so just ecstatic
that we've reached this stage.
First things first, welcome. Welcome to this platform,
and congratulations
on your book launching.
Now
I've said to everybody,
the name of the book, guys, is Taking
Control. Go and look for it on Amazon,
a Muslim woman's guide to surviving infertility.
Okay? Yes. That's us. We've both got copies.
And I have to say, Farah,
you did an amazing job. Your publisher shout
out to your publisher. They did an amazing
job.
I have to say it really
is inshallah going to be
a handbook for any
couple, any family, any sister that is going
through this trial. SubhanAllah.
But tell us a little bit about why
you decided to write this book in the
first place.
Fabulous. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, sister
Naima.
I was I was just thinking now. I'm
so excited to do I've done a few
workshops, but I haven't yet done a live
on this. I'm so glad it started with
you because Yeah. Like, I always think that's
where it started.
An Instagram post from you is where it
all started. Yeah. So,
So it's very fitting that that we're here
today,
So this book, why did I feel
in the need to write it? Why did
I feel like we had to bring it
out
into the world? Really because we need it.
I think infertility is something that most of
us, if we take a minute to think
about, there is someone
within our circle in some capacity
that has gone through it, if it's not
ourselves Mhmm. Or if it's not a very
close family member.
Yeah. So it's something that is real. It's
something that affects and impacts us very, very,
on a massive scale.
I think there is an I think there
are additional elements for it for Muslim women
and the Muslim community
and the pressures and the values that we
put around family and marriage, which are all
amazing things. But then, you know, there's there's
the other side of that. Right? Yeah. And
so I felt like for those couples and
sisters in particular who
are going through the isolation, the loneliness, the
confusion
of this test. Yeah. I saw firsthand
there was
very little well, there was nothing over 10
years ago, there was nothing that I personally
found.
Online or in real life. And so I
had to create a resource like this so
that these sisters can turn to again and
again and again. And I and this book,
for those of you who have read it,
let us know what you think because I've
tried to make it as comprehensive
as possible. So there's a lot there's very
little that you will find that will affect
somebody going through this journey that's not covered
in this book. Yeah. I love that, and
I like the way that you obviously, you
share part of your personal journey, but you've
got the, you know, the religious aspects.
You've got the religious
perspective. You've got the cultural perspective, the social
perspective, the personal perspective,
the interpersonal
perspective as well because you don't leave the
men out, you don't leave out, you know,
the husbands who are going through this. And
I wanna talk about that a little bit
more inshallah.
But did you find that when you were
writing this book, did you find that it
was easy to write about? Was it was
it something that was difficult for you personally,
or was it something that kind of just
flowed out of you and, you know, it
kind of was an easy thing? How how
did you find the process?
I found it I I think my body
had been wanting to Really? Release it for
a very long time. Yeah. I I flow
is a good word to use.
My husband does impressions of me during the
time I was writing up writing this book
because all I would have is my mushroom
coffee, which is very present, very delicious. Yeah.
And I would just be sat there for
god knows how many hours just typing away,
and all he would hear is like the
ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding
ding ding. Because I was just in a
role. I was in my own world.
Yeah. So it really just felt like it
had to, like it was pouring out. I
found it
much easier than I expected, which I think
people who have who will have picked up
the book and who will pick up the
book, you'll see in the first page, I
say, you know, thankfully, I actually found this
process easy considering,
you know, I wasn't a writer. I didn't
go to school to write. It was a
long life dream,
but because the message was something that was
building up for so long and it was
something that meant so much, and I when
I actually sat down and said, this middle,
I'd sat down to write, it was just
like, woof. My body was just ready just
to let it go. And you know what?
May Allah reward you for going through that
process, you know, on behalf of all the
sisters out there who, you know, don't have
any access to information,
you know, don't know anyone potentially who is,
you know, trying to conceive,
and just feels isolated and alone.
Because as you mentioned,
even within the the Muslim context or in
our traditional context,
you know, not having a child is actually
a really big deal. Do you wanna just
share with the people listening,
how does the Muslim woman's experience of infertility
differ from a non Muslim or a Western
woman, for example?
Fabulous. I think it differs in 2 ways.
Okay. In in the most
first first of all, I think there is
a sameness. There is, you know, women generally
grow up wanting to be mothers, thinking they
will be mothers and wanting to be mothers
regardless
of where they are in the world for
the for the majority for the majority.
And I know a lot of that is
changing sometimes.
But I think with the Muslim community and
the way our families are set up and
the way that we have relationships
and the way in which we have children
means that it often comes as
a a pack, a package, a setup, a
series of steps.
Mhmm. And so on theory, in theory, as
you also mean,
there are
other
ways that families are formed within other groups
and other communities which are not the norm
for us. Mhmm. And so
that means that there's this expectation
is greatly increased.
Mhmm. Because for lots of times in the
Muslim community, and I know we're generalizing here,
but just as a whole, wherever they are
in the world,
they got married
to
expand their family, to create more bonds within
their families. You're right. To carry on their
lineage. To you know, there's all of these
it wasn't just, oh, we wanna get married.
It's not just Because we're in love and
much. And we just That's it. That's it.
And and that's it. And I just want
a companion. For some people, I guess, maybe
that is the case. I've had people I've
met people who have said, I want to
get married, but
children are not necessarily a big thing. I
just want a companion. Friend, no. I guess
there are some people out there. But for
the whole, it it's a pack. May I
just say it well, just just to jump
in there, I think even if the couple
maintain that what's most important to us is
our relationship and the love that we share,
I don't think the families are on board
with that. I don't think the in laws,
the mother-in-law, the father-in-law, and the the wider
community are on board with that. Anyway, sorry.
I interrupted you. Carry on. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.
Because there's this big expectation as a community.
There's this pressure to get married. There's this
pressure to have children. There's this pressure to
have lots of children. There's this pressure to
have as many boys as possible.
But we're not so
smiley because I'm smiling, but Muslim communities. Right?
So in yeah. There really is the extra
pressure. And then the other side of it,
the other flip
is the way the Muslim woman and a
non Muslim woman or the Muslim couple or
non Muslim couple experience infertility. Yeah. So not
only is there maybe added pressure
non Muslim are not the same doors that
are open for Muslim. Right. Break them down.
Hence, what mean by that?
So you find out you're struggling and you
start to think about your options. Right.
Straight away, you will think
about all the various options that are available
to you today, and all of those options
as many of those options are in the
book. Right? And we've covered them. Yes. But
some of them are not
going to be an option for us. For
example,
quite often let's just say in this case,
which is not always the case, but let's
just say in this case,
there is a female egg issue. Mhmm.
In the Western world, at least, very quickly
and without much thought, really,
professionals will say to you, oh, go for
egg donor. The next time is the egg
donor. Right. You know, that's just the next
step. Right? Right. And so a lot of
non Muslims
will have the option
of egg donor, of sperm donor, of surrogacy,
of, you know, all of these things
that are not always the same for us.
Okay. So then we start to experience it
differently again in terms of what is possible
and and how can we deal with that.
Okay. Okay. And is the reason why just
just to educate me and potentially the viewers,
is the reason why egg donors and sperm
donors is not really something that we're recommended
to do or maybe even allowed to do,
Is that because of the lineage issue?
Yeah. That's a bit that is the biggest
part.
So I think whilst there are, like everything
else in Islam these days, may Allah guide
us all, there are some difference of opinion.
For the majority,
I think it's quite clear that those kind
of things are maybe not permissible for us
because what they say is that all types
of treatments and,
any treatments that are available out there are
available to us and halal for us as
long as they are between a man and
a wife. So as long as you keep
it within 2 people With 2 people. In
in specific Yeah. In in specifically, once a
third party gets involved,
then it becomes
a messiah, which is not really recommended in
Islam.
And, also, the lineage is huge part as
well because a lot of times people will
use egg donor, and they will carry that
child, and they will never disclose Mhmm. That
that's not their biological biological child. Right. Which
I understand. That's fine. Yeah. But Islamically,
it brings up a lot of problems.
I had a question, but I don't think
it's
question. And the question was,
if you are carrying the egg from an
egg donor and the baby grows inside you,
you birth the baby,
and, of course, if you breastfeed, that is
your child. Islamically, that's Mahram. Right? Just the
one thing. Yes. Okay. No. Yeah. No. I'm
sorry. Okay. Okay. Just because I had a
thought that I was like, hold on. You
can't give birth to a non. That that's
not possible. Yeah. No. No. No. No. No.
No. No. So it's not a issue, but
it but it it's it's the importance of
knowing where you're from, being true to where
you're from. Wow. Yeah. And children all whether
it's through adoption, whether it's egg donor, whether
it's sperm donor, knowing where they're from. Also,
all this is covered in the book in
more detail, but also in something like sperm
donor.
And,
typically, I think in the UK,
you can
so you can put your sperm towards, like,
a certain number of families being created. Okay.
I know it's maybe low risk, but this
creates a potential of a lot of biological
children or families being out there not knowing
about each other. True. Potentially could meet Yes.
Could marry. Yes. There's just so many other
problems that can come from that. Right. Right.
And so, Islamic, we always try to kind
of stay in the middle, you you know,
way. And whilst treatments are available Mhmm. We
also have to know that there's a boundary.
Okay. And so,
for me, for example, when I was trying
to look at treatments and I was trying
to find support,
straight away, I realized a lot of the
support groups weren't for me because a lot
of the treatment options that they were discussing
are not open to me. Right.
So I wanna know then, inshallah,
2 things. 1,
in terms of
iman and sort of spirituality,
iman,
and mindset,
what's one thing that you offer or that
you learned, you know no. What's one thing
that you offer in the book to anybody
who's going through this particular trial?
In terms of e men? Yes.
Yes.
That it's okay to struggle.
Look, it it it's okay. Like, please, you're
you're not the worst Muslim on this planet
Right. Because you are struggling,
because you're struggling to see the wisdom, because
you're feeling left out,
because you're thinking where is the dua? You're
not the worst Muslim. Of course, what we
say is different. Right? The the what we
say,
the way we express that pain, the things
that we do, our actions and our words,
that's gonna be judged very differently in Islam.
Right? Yeah. But the feelings that you have,
feeling that pain,
feeling,
drained by it all. Yes. Feeling you you
know, and and we email is up and
down. Right? We know it goes up and
it goes down. Mhmm. Especially for women, there
are weeks and months where our hormones and
everything are up and down, and it can
add to all those kind of things. So
it's okay.
Like, I'm I'm so
I'm so,
I see Muslims all the time so scared
of The feeling. Feeling like feeling like the
worst Muslims on Earth.
Yeah. Be because
they feel like they're not doing the the
the the test justice. Right. And for me,
whilst I'm not a scholar or a chef
or anything, just for me, what has worked
is that I don't
ever vilify my vilify myself. I am wary
of what I say. I'm really I don't
want this test to go to waste. That's
one thing that I I decided a long
time ago. Wow. Wow. I mean, the test,
let's not
let it take out. Right? So I'm very
conscious of never becoming desperate enough that I
do things I know is halal halal. Yeah.
Because we you will find somebody that will
make a halal for you. That's easy to
find. Oh, that's deep. Oops. Since you're dropping
too many gems right now, but keep going.
No. Honestly, anything and everything, you will find
somebody that says, in this certain situation,
And then when you're desperate,
you you're you're gonna do anything to have,
you know, to have the thing that you
want. So for me, it was like, I
don't want to
go outside the boundaries of
what I'll have set for me knowing full
well that they're they we're going outside it,
but somebody's told me it's okay. That's number
1. And number 2,
watching my tongue, watching my words, watching how
I express that pain
because I don't want to waste the the
test that I'm in. Right? Yeah. But at
the same time,
not feeling like I'm the worst Muslim and
I don't believe in Allah's Islamic because now
because I'm feeling sad, because I'm crying, because
I'm the straw. Yeah. Because I'm wondering whether
I will be answered because maybe I'm losing
hope today. That's okay. You shot a lot.
Tomorrow will be better. It's okay. So I
I think it's just kind of playing that
thing of let yourself feel you are human,
but then don't let your feelings take you
all the way to the other side as
well. Right? And try to get that balance.
100%.
100%. Guys, this is Farah Duale. Please make
sure you follow her on Instagram and buy
her book for yourself, for a family member,
for a friend, anybody that you know. Put
it in a local library.
Put it in a masjid.
You know? Recommend your bookshop. Get it. You
know, if you have a you know, you
belong, you're part of a doctor's
surgery, you know, in, Like, if you are
a medical professional, if you're a nurse, if
you're a fertility professional, if you're a coach
and you work with ladies who deal with
this, get the book.
Recommend people to get the book, to read
the book, and to make use of this
amazing resource. So I have kind of, like,
one last question before we get onto the
book, really.
And that is, I guess,
do you, in the book, give any advice
for people who are long term trying to
conceive? I guess what I'm trying to understand
is, is there a point at which you
advise sisters to just accept the color
and just be happy with what they have,
or do you think it's you should never
give up, you should keep trying, you should
keep pushing? And how does that impact the
marriage? I know it's a big question. I
love that. Yeah. I'd love that. No. No.
I love that. I love that question. I
I love that question. I
so the book.
Let's discuss how the book is laid out.
Mhmm. So the book actually has 3
clear sections. They're all drastically different. Yeah. So
the first section
deals a lot with the journey, the personal
journey. Right? And so the first so the
the the the the things that are covered
in the first section are things like, for
example, my own story, my approach,
you know, womanhood, identity, the body and the
period,
you know, difficult question, emotional support, and also
marriage, what friends and family need to know.
So it's all of the social personal aspects
of this journey.
That is the first
section,
and a lot of that also deals with
the key messages in that section are all
around mindset and all those
kind of things. Right? So the first section
of the book really
is there to build the sister up. It's
there to build
the woman up who's struggling. It's there to
educate
those within the family,
social,
surroundings
on how to support them, on what not
to say, on how you could be doing
further damage. That's the first section of a
lot of that. Right? Yeah. The second section
goes really deep into the treatment options. Right.
What are the treatment options? Holistically,
you know, IVF. Like, what are all the
various sorts? Because, for example, again, there are
treatments. Before, I said there are treatments not
available
for us, but available for non Muslims. But
in the same way, there are treatments open
to us Yes. That are not open
for for for for non Muslims. Right? Yeah.
So it covers all the different options available
for Muslims in terms of treatments. For sure.
What they cost, you know, what's halal, what's
haram, just sort of basic levels. So it
really goes really deep with that. You can
make an informed decision Yes. About what is
available to you and how that might help
you and if it's permitted. Amazing. Then the
third section
is fantastic for the question that you asked.
And the third section is called your family,
your options. Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. This section and
so even I understand to the book and
the instruction, I I I encourage the reader
to do section 1 before they go on
to section 2 and 3. Right. Because if
you are reading section 3, but you're in
year 1 of trying
and you haven't done any of section 12,
it doesn't quite make sense. Yes. Yes. Yes.
But right? But there are those of us
who have been in this now for 10,
12, 15, 17 years. And so we're at
that stage now where we've covered a lot
of section 1, we've done a lot of
section 2, and we're getting to section 3.
And so to answer your question
on a personal level,
I think it is healthy
that a couple
is able to recognize
when they are done with trying to conceive.
Like, biologically trying to have a child. Child.
Right? Yeah. They they, as a couple, need
to know when that I mean, sometimes, I
guess, your biological clock and things like that
will tell you, especially for women. I mean,
sometimes it's it's done and it's
out of your hands. Right? For some women,
that's what we'll let them know. Right. I
but because we've the book is called Taking
Control. I'm not and and if you don't
take any other message and the reader doesn't
take any other message from this book, it's
the fact it's the choice, the fact that
you have choice and the power of choice
in so many aspects. And so for me,
knowing that you have that choice, I would
say,
instead of waiting
for
the option of having having a child just
being taken away from you, I e, you
know, you turn to 7 8 and menopause
and things like that. Right? Exactly. Instead of
that happening,
you have the power to also say enough
is enough.
And enough's enough doesn't mean you and then
people will say to you, oh, my stuff's
not a lie. You're young. You're giving up.
Like, you know, I love and they will
tell you all the different stories. Right? Because
they're gonna tell you about the profits and
all these things. You a woman who? I
knew a woman for 17 years. And it's
like, yeah. I know. I get it. Mother.
Right? Yes. Yes. Right. Right. So the stories
come out. Those stories are always hilarious. But,
anyway, I I I need to focus.
I I think it's really healthy. You know
yourself. You know your situation. You know your
marriage. You you know what you can especially
for women. Remember, a lot of it doesn't
matter
what the cause of the fertility is.
Generally speaking,
it will the majority of treatments,
let's say something like IVF, a trauma even,
what whatever. Generally speaking, the majority of it
is on the female body. Yeah. Of course.
So, you know, emotionally, psychologically,
financially, physically, what you can and can't handle.
Mhmm. And you do need to make a
decision of when you know enough is enough
for you. So I do think that that
you can get to a place where you
say we've we're done with that part.
Somebody just wanna comment that you can hear?
They continue.
Yeah.
It's yeah. You're back.
Yeah. Okay.
Good.
We're still here.
So okay. I I missed that, but I
think the audience got it. I think the
viewers got it. So about getting to a
stage where you decide that
this is this part of the journey is
over,
whatever that looks like.
I think that's a healthy, healthy, healthy approach.
Not everyone will always do that, but I
think that's a healthy approach. I think that's
the kind of approach I would prefer to
go down and then know that, okay, now
that that is done, that gives you a
lot of freedom,
a lot
of new opportunities.
And then you can
say, okay. What next? What do we do
next? What other options are available? And then
you can kind of explore all of the
other various options that are available, town's family,
to stay married, to not stay married, what
whatever the case may be. I remember that
you spoke about this at the secrets of
successful wives conference, and I just anybody who
is interested in this topic for whatever reason,
please do go on to my YouTube channel
and search Farah Dua Ale because she did
an amazing talk,
on on this issue.
And you looked at all the options, really,
didn't you? We talked about, you know,
staying together,
childless.
We talked about marrying again, a second wife.
We talked about splitting up. We talked about
adoption. We talked about everything. You talked about
Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.
Exactly. I just wanna say may may Allah
reward you for having the courage
to step up and be seen in this
area
because it is an area where most women
would prefer if they were struggling, they prefer
not to say. They'd prefer people not to
know. You know, fear of judgment, fear of
being seen as any kind of way. Right?
So I I just want to thank you
for standing up and speaking
so that other women who are going through
this can draw from your strengths
and draw from your confidence and your experience
and knowledge in this area.
And I pray that really I do pray
that Allah blesses you with the very best.
Only he knows what is best for us.
Right? And I I one thing I do
know is that whatever tests we, we go
through, there is always a wisdom and there
is always a gift
throughout the test and at the end of
the test. So may Allah bless you, sis,
for just continuing to show up and to
give of yourself
for the sake of those sisters who really
this is what they need. This is what
they need to hear. This is what they
need to see. This is the knowledge that
they need, the guidance, the inspiration,
the comfort, the support, the solace. This is
what they need, and Allah
is using you
as a means of ease for them. And
so may Allah bless
you.
Any any
Anywhere and everywhere, just about.
So,
if you're living in the UK, I guess,
Amazon or anywhere. Amazon Amazon is probably the
best in terms of the easiest for people,
and amazon.co.uk
is doing a ridiculously,
it's doing a big sale for the 1st
week, 1st month of the release. So get
a few copies because it's so cheap.
But anywhere else, you can get it on
Amazon. You can get it at Waterstones, WH
Smith.
Foyles, is it? I never know how to
pronounce it. Yes. McIntyre. Anyway, if you just
just Google,
where however you usually buy books, that's how
you get it. Yeah.
So yeah. A lot of people have asked
me, actually. Yeah. Sorry. Go ahead. Sorry to
interrupt, Paolo. A lot of people have asked,
oh, is there audio? Is there audio? Is
there audio?
Let's buy enough of it because I'm not
even Naomi, you you would probably know better
than us. Please tell us. I don't know
how this works, but I assume audio is
something that may come or usually comes. For
sure. Yeah. If there's a demand, guys,
you know, we'll That's it. Togra books. We
can tag them and say, hey. Togra books.
People ask about audiobook. So for sure, audiobooks
are the future moving forward, and this is
the type of book that would do really
well as an audiobook, so I definitely recommend
that. And I want to just share with
you the comment of a sister who now
is a client in the writing program, But
she says, I must also say Allah
chooses the person to share a story. And
the more I read this book, the more
I feel like Farah was exactly that person
to share this book with everyone. Wow.
Thank you so much.
Face it.
Beautiful.
I'm gonna repeat what I said. Firstly, follow
follow sister Farah on Instagram.
2nd, go check out the book. Buy a
copy.
Whether the copy is for yourself
or a family member or a friend or
the community center or the masjid or the
library or the doctor's surgery or whatever it
is, wherever it is,
know that inshallah, there will be somebody who
will benefit from this book and who needs
this book because there's nothing else out there.
So There's nothing else to write it like
it. Exactly. May Allah bless you, sister Farah.
This will not be the last time that
we have a chat. We will definitely be
having another chat again, inshallah. But for now
I'm sure we will. You so much for
gracing us with your presence, for giving us
your time. And more importantly,
thank you for pouring your heart and soul
into this book. May Allah bless you and
allow you to see the rewards.
Amin, and and I might just wanna say
to you as well for facilitating this for
I know just now, I know you we've
just gone through the 5 day challenge, and
and there are a lot more women coming
through this. And and I know I've said
it before, Safara. We've said it a few
places, but
without the group, without the support, without women
who understand what we're trying to do and
the barriers that we have and the backgrounds
that we're from,
really facilitating that yourself, Hinge, the other people
in your team.
These kind of books don't then come into
the world, if that makes sense of Hannah
Lab because 100%. It weren't.
Right? It was it was you facilitated this.
It was people like me feeling comfortable to
join groups like that,
having that support, making duas for each other.
There's a sister in Pakistan who's from, a
release program. Yeah. We still check up on
each other now. We we she's left me
a voice mail saying, you're not doing enough
marketing. What's going on with your book? And
I'm I'm cursing her about saying, you haven't
done you know, you haven't edited your part
2. What's happening? And we we we never
know it. And,
like, it but but being in that kind
of group, so the kind of
resources
that people like yourself and and you in
particular are creating is so powerful, and, subhanAllah,
it's what's allowed us to do this kind
of thing. So I just wanna
say I'll reward you and your team immensely
as well. I mean I mean, girl, you
know, I'm out here just racking up those
rewards. You know that when I take it
off, I'm just like, yeah. I'll take it.
I'll take it. I'll take it. I'll take
What a great deal is that? And how
can we learn? Can we predict that? So,
It's beautiful. I like this this
the the faith that we're part of is
is a is a beautiful one.
Alright, guys. I'm gonna leave it there. Sis,
thank you so much for your time. Thank
you. To see you. For your evening.
If
it's okay with you, I'm gonna run a
giveaway
for the book Yes. On my on my
I'll be doing more for you soon as
well. And then we'll put, we'll put the
details inshallah on the Instagram, guys. We're gonna
do a lovely giveaway. Alright? We're gonna have
sister Farah's book and some other goodies that
we're gonna bolt onto inshallah. We'll do a
fun giveaway next week inshallah. Okay? So follow
the system.
Order the book. When you've read it, post
your review. Very important.
Very important. Very important. All of you who've
read the book who are reading it, guys,
please do not Go away. To go back
on Amazon and post a review.
Please. Please.
Alright, guys?
Have a fantastic evening. Take care, sis.
Take care. Good night.
Thanks for everything. Bye.