Lauren Booth – Palestinian Confidence – Palestine Matters

			Salam I pray this finds you well and blessed. This video is one of the best discussions I have ever
had in 20 years on the topic of Palestine by Palestinians in their own voice. Dr. Ramzy Baroud is
discussing the ways in which Palestinians are looking to free themselves with no external help. Like
I say to me, it's one of the best talks I've ever heard on this topic. I hope you'll agree, let me
know in the comments.
		

			to Palestine matters, a look at impactful stories and more importantly, ground changing strategies
to change the apartheid status quo visited forced upon the Palestinians since 1948. And we could not
begin the series with a better or more fundamentally timely guest than Dr. Ramzy Baroud, who has
just written an incredible new book, which summarizes where the Palestinians themselves are with
their conversation about liberation. So Dr. Ramsey brood who is he? He's a US Palestinian
journalist. He is the editor of Palestine chronicle since 1999. He has a PhD in Palestine studies
from Exeter University and he's the author of six books Subhanallah this latest one is CO edited by
		

			the historian Ilan pappy. And it is it features Bertie intellectuals, all of them Palestinian, each
of them summarizing a diaspora or an underground context for their personal struggle and ways
forward. Dr. Ramsey salaam aleikum Ilocanos Salam wa Rahmatullah and thank you for having me on the
program, sister, Laura, you know what we're saying? It's been about 10 years since I saw you was on
another TV show, this journey that you've been on as an author. And as a Palestinian living the
diaspora existence seems to be coming to some kind of fruition now. Because there is a very strong
post Oslo chords, disaster image coming through the Palestinian voices here. Talk to us about being
		

			post Oslo and a vision for liberation. That's right. I think this assessment is quite correct is
that there's what happened after Austin is that we Palestinians lived through this this year that
that I consider last year, it's for the Palestinians in terms of our liberation struggle, it was a
years of redefinition. we redefined everything about Palestine, and the Palestinian struggle in
order for us to fit in, in order for us to be accepted and to be validated. From a western point of
view, of course. So the good Palestinian is the Palestinian who spoke the language that was
		

			that was perceived to be acceptable and valid from an American, Western and, of course, Israeli
point of view. This is how Palestinians managed to get funds from so called donor countries. This is
how Palestinians managed to gain access to various international institutions, and so forth. But in
the process of doing so, those good Palestinians, quote, unquote, if they were not at all allowed to
actually lead to liberation struggle in the traditional sense, the sense of that applied to all
historical experiences in the Global South, throughout Africa, Asia and South America, fighting
against colonialism, using the kind of language that eventually liberated them, at least from the
		

			traditional classic forms of colonialism. In the Palestinian case, those who championed those types
of ideas were perceived to be radical, and terrorists, and anyone who defended resistance within
that framework was perceived to be a terrorist sympathizer and an equal and equally radical. So you
had this polarized discourse on Palestine that was quite impossible to navigate. And the process of
doing so. The the evolution of the Palestinian discourse was disrupted. We found ourselves not
without vision, per se, but without decentralized vision, the Palestinians who fought the the
		

			A true fight on the ground what we call the engaged Palestinians, the engaged intellectuals, the the
organic intellectuals, they were either assassinated, imprisoned, or marginalized entirely, they
will not relevant, they did not fit into this whole Oslo paradigm. They did not speak the language
that really that got you the money and got you the political status, and so forth and so on. And
those last years are now coming to an end. Because you have a new generation of Palestinians who are
thinking beyond Oslo, thinking beyond the Oslo culture, and thinking beyond the factional paradigm
that prevailed over Palestine, sadly, for nearly three decades. And this book is a celebration, not
		

			just of this generation, it's a celebration for the persistence of the engaged intellectual, that
thought paid the price, a heavy price at times, but at the end of the day, they are the ones who are
prevailing, and their voices are the ones that now truly matters. It's a book that brings some of
these the strongest of these voices together, some of them actually spoke to us from prison, and we
bring them together and we tell the world, we can speak for ourselves. Thank you very much. And this
is what we want from you, we need you to listen, and we need your solidarity, but we want to be at
the center and at the heart of this conversation. And that's really the point, isn't it, you know,
		

			external voices deciding how Palestine should be remade, are still colonial voices. I remember going
on the Free Gaza, and an activist saying to me, you know, you've got to be careful of the white
savior,
		

			content context in your own mind that you're going over there to liberate we're that we're, we're
being directed by the Palestinians to to take action. And that really kind of flipped things for me.
And this understanding that the Palestinians have their heroes, and we just don't know them. And
that that, like you say, this conversation is moving forward. Talk to us about the habit of 2021,
the meaning of habit, and and who are the youngsters coming? And what are how are they freer, then
then then in their conversations, and in their outlook, then perhaps generations or the last 20
years? That's right, the hub of 2021 actually happened during the process of creating this book,
		

			during the conversations that we've had with many intellectuals. And we were saying, and this is
really interesting, you know, the hotbar, meaning, the rise of the resurgence, which I call the
Palestinian rebellion, I know it's it seemingly is was shortly but it wasn't it was a process. And
that process started years prior to this hub. And it continued until now, there is an ongoing habit.
And it expresses itself in a multitude of ways. If we pay attention. And we listen to what the
Palestinians are doing and saying to the new language that they are utilizing. We know that this
process is happening, and is still ongoing. And the reason I refer to it as a rebellion, because in
		

			the history of Palestinian revolutions, I would say starting in the 1920s, but most importantly, the
uprising of 1936.
		

			Palestinians unified with this incredible political consciousness that was unprecedented in that
region. I mean, imagine this is something happening a century ago, and you have peasants sustaining
an ongoing strike for six months, followed by a rebellion of three years that influence the thinking
of several generations since then, and I compare this what happened in May of last year, to what
happened in 1936, in the sense that there was a process of articulating a new political discourse
that is going to last for years and years to come. This is these are going to be the days in which
people are going to remember, I you know, the way that I remember what happened during the first
		

			Palestinian intifada 1987 I was born and raised in a refugee camp in the Gaza Strip. I live that
Intifada. And until now, I have almost 50. And I remember the political discourse of those years in
which I was a teenager, and it still affects my relationship to Palestine until this day. So what
happened a year ago in Palestine will define a whole generation if not even more for years to come.
And we are going to continue to see the repercussions of this then of this for many years to come.
But what is so interesting about it is that the people
		

			were involved in making this book. It's like we knew that something was about to happen. We knew
that Palestine has been going through a political transition for years. The question was when, when
will this transition lead to something new and different, and something that everybody can see, we
see it in the everyday reality of Palestine, but not at a popular level. So in the process of some
of the essays being contributed, submitted, drafts being sent back and forth, the habit took place.
And then you had all of these intellectuals say, send us the essays back, we need now we know that
we what we were talking about, is actually is actualizing. So let's revisit this. So it was kind of
		

			like almost a process in the making, and the people are telling us what we what we did not know, the
people were telling us we want you to change and omit and edit because there is a new reality not
happening in the future. But it's happening today. Isn't it almost true, though, that the the
rebellion in this current climate of of kind of Western, absolute dogma, pro Israeli whatever they
do, nothing matters, the killing of their Shareen Rahim Allah journalists being routinely shot is
that it's almost the randomness of the rebellion, the individual illness of each person going I will
carry a stone and the old lady with a stick hitting a settler or even a you know, you know, an armed
		

			Zion wrist soldier, that the the, the the panoramic controls paradigm can't, can't quell. So if we
always want there to be unity. But isn't it almost the randomness and the individual stubbornness of
the Palestinian character, not my words, the words of the Palestinian writers that makes this work
and can can bring it to a conclusion. Right? It is, you know, this seeming randomness. It is in
actuality a reflection of an existing unity that is happening at a popular level. One argument that
I have made throughout the years do not judge unity and disunity of the Palestinians based on the
factional feud between various factions. Don't take these functional fields out of their historical
		

			context. Remember, every national liberation struggle from Vietnam, to Algeria to South Africa, and
anywhere and everywhere else had its own factional and political fields were not the exception. This
idea that Palestinians are the exception is a colonial idea implanted by Israel itself. And let me
remind everyone that it was Benjamin Netanyahu, the former Prime Minister of Israel, this this last
year right wing character that killed so many Palestinians throughout the years, who insisted we
don't have a peace partner, Palestinians are not unified, unless they are unit united, then we can
talk peace. And he used that that pretense as a way to carry on with his colonial endeavors building
		

			and expanding settlements in the West Bank. And the rest of the world is looking at the Palestinian
saying, Well, I mean, he has a point, you have to be united to meet the expectations of of a war
criminal, who is not satisfied with your current state of affairs. So the issue of Palestinian
unity, historically has been used as a way to manipulate Palestinians and to make them appear as if
they are failing to live up to the expectations of the peacemakers. But the argument I've made and
sustained throughout the years, is that if you and this is why I shift my entire studies from
traditional history to people's history, because I have argued that Palestinians are actually
		

			united, united around the principles value column resistance, united around their anti colonial
drive, united in their insistence that the neck part and the right of return for Palestinian
refugees, is absolutely critical to the future of Peace and Justice in Palestine, united around all
of these principles, and this this is the kind of unity that matters. The question is we have been
focusing on the wrong unity, not on the right unity. And now what we have seen what we call hub that
is also in Palestine known as the Unity Intifada, which is our way of saying we are united now more
than ever, in fact, we have always been united. Amazing. There. There are two two things here. One
		

			is history.
		

			archaeology, for example, in digging up the past helped the Palestinian cause today. Absolutely. You
know, you note, you notice how the book starts with the archaeology. Because our history as
Palestinians did not start in, in 1948. And it did not start when the Zionist movement was formed.
		

			You know, along with other fascist movements in Europe at the late in the late 19th century and
early 20th century, Palestine existed for 1000s of years prior to the existence of Israel and the
term Palestine, the etymology of the term itself is an ancient term. So the idea of Palestine and
the idea of the Palestinian is an ancient idea as a historic idea. And we wanted to make that very,
very clear to our readers. So we don't start the book with when Hertzberg began the Zionist movement
this happened, and not at all. So we but but here is what is so interesting about Palestinian
archaeology, Palestinian archaeology is very similar, or rather, is situated within what we call
		

			community archaeology. It's not a group of French archaeologists say going to Mali, digging up some
old relics and giving it meaning. No, community archaeology is the kind of, of archaeology where the
meaning is given by the people who are rooted in that land in that land. And this is why Palestinian
archaeology scares Israel, because when the study has dig their past, they give it meaning, meaning,
and the animated and the link it to other historical segments of, of our collective awareness, and
it becomes part of our identity. I said earlier in the program that I was born and raised in a
refugee camp. Now the history of the refugee camp supposedly goes back to Israel in 1948, when my
		

			family became refugees, as a result of the Nakba. In actuality, the history of that camp goes back
1000s of years. So the Canaanites, the Byzantines. And the hook source, there was a great Ipsos
kingdom that was actually situated where my refugee camp stands. And I was lucky enough to have been
assigned by Duke University to write about the ancient history of my refugee camp. And as a result,
I got many Palestinian community archaeologists involved in creating an animating the meaning of
that camp. So it makes me very happy to learn that we Palestinians are moving beyond the idea of
Zionism, as the inception of our modern, you know, awareness of who we are. And we are moving away
		

			from the defensive approach to history into a different type of historic in which we locate
ourselves in our history independent from the Zionist and the Ipsos, and the Byzantines, that the
Romans and everybody else Subhanallah we have so little time on this. I'd like a quick comment,
though, on the studying of Israeli thought that's going on right now. madda, just tell us a couple
of minutes about why that's significant, because, you know, not coming from this,
		

			you know, stereotypical approach that a Palestinian under occupation might have, but actually
knowing the enemy's thought processes and the realities for everyday people in in that in those
regions. That's right, the chapter about murder and the experience of murder as a research center
that is dedicated to studying Israel. Now, let's remember the term research itself. And there's a
lot of good writing and books about it. The modern view of research is a colonial term that is meant
for colonial powers to study the oppressed people of the South in order for them to facilitate their
oppression. And so there is a new movement of South Asian historians, who are an indigenous
		

			historians that are now trying to reverse that, first of all, study themselves, and also study the
colonial powers as well. And this is what meta is doing. But there are other elements of the book
that where we tried to study the, the Israeli and the Zionist mindset, remember such books as the
Arab mind, and you know, and that sort of thing where they try to study, you know, and decipher what
is this Arab and how do we put a nice the Arab? Well, we are trying to do the same thing. We want to
study our colonizer. And that's what also Hanin Zoabi her chapter about her experiences as a member
of the Israeli Knesset as an Arab woman, Palestinian woman living in Israel. Also trying to study
		

			and decipher is a selective view of democracy and the racist application of that term and so forth.
So this is really what we tried in the book to go into so many new territories
		

			In which we challenge, not just the way that Palestine is being viewed, but even the very concept of
research itself and how it applies to the Palestinians, and how it applies to Israel. It does feel
brave, and it does feel new. And it very much tells each academics, personal family story. And I
think that's so important. Because, again, you know, you take people out of their context, and then
you intellectualize the language to such a degree, you you can't you can't put it to people on the
ground. You know, I cried, reading numerous chapters. And I was fascinated with the newness of the
ideas, Ramzi, you run marathons? And this is a marathon? It's not a sprint? Are the Palestinians
		

			running out of steam? Or are they going for a sprint finish? Now? It have a 2021? Can you really see
a finish line for liberation? I absolutely see a finish line. In fact, I've written about this
recently about how this new Palestine and this new Palestinian activist is now be, you know,
bringing back such concepts as the neck. But we are centering once more around what has happened to
us, when Pakistan was destroyed in 1948. We're not satisfied with 1967 borders, we're not satisfied
with two state solutions. We're not satisfied with the polite language that has been imposed on us.
We are talking about liberation in its classic sense, and we are so insistent that we will
		

			eventually get there. Subhanallah I just want to thank you for this book. And I'm going to read to
you actually your your ending. So where do we go from here we use this book as the beginning of a
forward thinking conversation on Palestine, led by engaged Palestinian intellectuals who just whose
allegiance is not to a political party, or a rigid ideology, a final thought on how do we, as
engaged people support this new struggle? This new struggle, sorry, this new elements of this whole
struggle? Right. And you mentioned this earlier in the show when you spoke about, you know, where do
we position ourselves, visa vie the Palestinian struggle? Do we tell the Palestinians what to do and
		

			there's been a lot of people kind of falling into that trap. And as a Palestinian I take
responsibility for it, in the sense that if you do not tell people with a centralized and unified
message and voice, then this is what we want the kind of take on take on the initiative of telling
you what to do. One thing I've noticed that whenever I travel, whether in Brazil, Kenya, South
Africa, Hawaii with other indigenous people, I've never experienced any indigenous activist telling
me Ramsay go for this. Don't do that. I like him. I like Fattah, I hate Hamas and that sort of
thing. This is entirely Western experience. So I think I think perhaps it is time not only for
		

			Palestinians to redefine their own struggle based on these new new diktats and new realities with
disgust but also the solidarity activist, activist to reposition themselves
		

			regarding toward the Palestinians. Our solidarity means standing beside me, not in front of me. It's
not replacing me and not speaking on my behalf. I can speak for my people and they have a voice.
They are not mute. They just need you to take moral and political responsibility for what your
governments have done to our people. Once you understand that this is the kind of relationship that
you should have been we are talking about a very healthy interaction and meaningful solidarity
towards the final freedom, justice and liberation. Thank you so much. May Allah bless you. May Allah
give the Palestinians their freedoms and their rights and a great future inshallah. Let's all unite
		

			for this and stand beside you or actually slightly behind you lead the way.
		

			In Sharla, thank you very much, sister for taking the time. Thank you, brother. Take care see you
soon.
		

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