A detailed conversation between brother Robert and Shaykh Ismail Kamdar about the role of Urf in Fiqh.
Ismail Kamdar – A conversation about the role of Urf (Culture) in Fiqh
AI: Summary ©
The speakers discuss the cultural challenges faced by their families, including " blame for the culture" and the "monster" culture trying to avoid. They also discuss the cultural differences between Eastern and Southern cultures, the importance of respecting one's Islam values, and the challenges of educating oneself and finding a community to study culture. A recent show on the " blame for the culture" is also mentioned, along with the importance of long discussions to achieve a solution.
AI: Summary ©
Assalamu alaikum Welcome to another podcast for Islam for Europeans to have a very special guest.
Brother smile kamdar. Who's coming to us from South Africa? Is that correct? Brother? Yes. Okay. Well, they come Salaam Rahmatullah. What city in South Africa. So I'm based in Durban, South Africa on the eastern coast. Yeah. Okay. hamdulillah I guess it's your summer there. How's the weather out there? It's hot.
But Dublin is hot all year round. So this is the way that we are accustomed to. Yeah, I see. Yeah, well, here it says zero degrees. So Wow. So it's polar opposites at the moment? Yeah. But I was walking around and like a light coat. So it was, then we're used to guess we're used to the winter weather here. Yeah, you're used to the winter, we used to the heat, I can't stand cold weather.
I don't move the camera.
Okay, so our topic today and, you know,
I found your
original lecture on YouTube.
You know, when I was looking up the concept of photos, and, you know, we'll since, you know, you've studied a lot on this subject, Humberto de la, you know, we'll let you you know, sort of define the concept of more in detail, like, sorry, get to get my cat out of the way. Come on, Kitty.
Sorry. So, um,
but we'll get into that more. But, you know, I guess it's such a sort of, like, an important concept in,
in Islam, but at the same time, it's very unknown to most lay Muslims and even some educated Muslims. Like, when I looked up or in Islam on YouTube, you know, the video with the most views was like, like, 1000. Like, you know, like, we have all these other concepts in Islam that are just so taboo hot topics that are always discussed, hijab, jihad.
You know, like,
you know, even inheritance, any topic you can think of, really, but what if is just the most least studied topic, or at least known topic in Islam. So, you know, I wanted to
talk about life in general. But why do you think that is brothers? Now? Why do you think what if it's such a
unknown subject in the, in the in the Muslim world? Yeah, well, I'll extend it further and see what is a subcategory of procedural. And I think we should speak as a whole is one of the most understudied, yet necessary subjects of our time.
I mean, historically, pseudo fake was something that only all of us studied, and only the Obama discuss. But during the Ottoman era, it kind of, like, sidestepped it, because we now had all these books up at our, and people began to just memorize the power and it's kind of like over the past 400 years, or so we'll fix that we're getting less and less important, less and less discussed until it's, you can see what the past 100 years it's, it's almost disappeared from public knowledge altogether. to a level that there are many people out there who are graduates in Islamic Studies, yet they are under the unfamiliar with,
even if they must have, if you have to ask them. Like, if you ask the average scholar that I'm gonna be right. So if you ask the average man, if you were to look up the Hanafi madhhab, they might not be able to give you the full list. Or maybe they'll be able to talk about Quran and Sunnah and Jamal, but you have to go further and ask them, what about all What about is their son? What's the honeybee approach to Hades, they may not be able to do so because sadly, these are neglected subjects in our time.
And the irony here is these subjects were developed in the second and third generation of Islam to solve new issues as they pop up. That's why the subject was developed because the olema of that period like Imam, Abu hanifa, Imam, Ali, mahalo, these great Allah, they had the foresight to see that in every generation, new things are gonna pop up. So we need a system to solve new problems. That's essentially what we should look at as a system for solving problems as they pop up. Now, what happened was, we had this long period of history where nothing new popped up. There was like this stagnation period of history where basically life was the same for 600 or 700 years. So because
nothing's popping up nobody's using pseudo fake because no one's using pseudo fake people stop teaching with pseudo speaker stop talking about this a little bit. But then suddenly, we have this surge of new things popping up. Say from from World War One until now. Like World War One until now, the amount of new things that have popped up in the world it's, it's, it's like something to a level that has never happened before in human history. It's just too much and suddenly
They are not prepared to deal with new things because no one study which will take or if they are the studying it in terms of just memorizing the names without learning how to apply modern times and see the other issue, at some Institute's do teach it. But it's just like, this means that we should pick up the malherbe. Learn the names, like the definitions, put it aside, right. But how to lie to our times. This is something that's it's a big issue nowadays, it's something that we need to revive. And one of the reasons I actually did that series to the lecture over part of a series was
how last topic is in our time. So this, the scene is actually depleting last year, in October, exactly one year ago. And when I announced the series, and I told my community, I'm going to do a six part series, pick. The question I got from everybody, including my own family is, what's that?
It kind of reminds me of my family are generally knowledgeable people, but they've never heard of kusunoki data. Yeah, I mean, that, you know, that's and think about, you know, the general non Muslim population. I mean, I think there's a big disconnect with what
the Muslim community thinks non Muslims already know about Islam. Like, I remember when I was at the University of Toronto, and they had an Islamic Awareness Week. And, you know, one of the booths was named the six principles of faith.
You know, and as I was looking, you know, listening to hear, you know, non Muslims walked by, they don't know, they said to themselves, I don't know, one principle of faith.
So there people or a lot of, not even, definitely a lot of non Muslims don't understand these terms. So, you know, we really have to break it down, and sort of define it. So you define sullo, as applying Islamic knowledge, to understanding new problems, is that correct? Or so the actual technical definition of who should know this is break it down, right also means your methodology, okay? right to be the way of doing something. And spec means your understanding of the law. So your methodology of understanding or working out the law, that's what it is. So you get different methodologies, the 100 method, the humbling method, the method, basically, in the second generation
of Islam, they were scholars in different cities, who developed different ways of solving problems. Right. So we had Imam Abu hanifa. In Iraq, we had Mr. Malik, in Medina, we had you know, a sharpie who traveled to multiple countries. And each of them developed their own system of figuring out laws and applying Islamic principles to new issues. And these became known as mud hubs, right to the term mud hub is, is linked to the term pursuit of your mud hub represents the methodology you use it for solving big issues.
And each of them developed a slightly different methodology that was united in primary issues and divisive in secondary issues. What do I mean by this is that, for example, in my colleague, Mr. Abu hanifa, Obama shall be all these early scholars, they all agreed our laws come primarily from poor and in Hades, from from the Quran, from the teachers of the prophets, lollywood, Salah after that they had differences. So Mr. Malik would look at the practices of the people of Medina, and he will take laws from that the others rejected this email, Abu hanifa would use a lot of rational. So the hanafy methodology is more rational. So it's more about looking at the whys in the house in the
context, right. That's why it became known as the people's opinion. You know, a sharpie focus more on hobbies. And so these became different ways of approaching that that developed over time is so different countries have different methodologies. So pseudo free, essentially means a way of approaching Islamic law to number one, work it out. And number two, use it to figure out new things because Islam is meant to be able to be applied to every time in place, but times in place to change it. How do we keep it relevant? That's what we'll pick is therefore How do you keep the laws relevant? Somebody invents something new, how do we decide whether it is permissible or prohibited
or recommended? Well, we use sudo PIP to figure that out. Right? So this is what it is a method of figuring out what is the law for anything? Okay, so let's use a practical example. And this is big, you know, in, in Western media, and we
there's a book
by
a British professor, I don't name names, but he was talking about
female circumcision or FGM. And describing the experiences of
a book that he read from someone who had misstated from from Islam. really horrible experience, it was like tight for FGM. But as far as I know, and then maybe you can elaborate this I don't know if you're if you know about this particular subject, but
when the different math happens when they addressed these issues, they said that it was only specific to a particular region.
It's only
the not even the type of ironic, horrible mutilation that women are experiencing in the Horn of Africa. And on top of that, it's not even obligatory. Now. When, you know, when Western scholars, when they look at what what they think Muslims think about this particular subject, they just take one Hadees out of context. And they say, well, this, this justifies, you know, what's going on in those particular regions. And, you know, and when you look at even websites that are against this particular practice, they never mentioned, what Islamic scholars have said about the subject.
So how would you know, the different math hubs look at this particular issue and then deduce what is allowed and what is not allowed? Yes, so one of the primary principles that you will find it super fake across all mud hubs is the principle of what's called lad dollar, or $1. US dollar, which translates as harm must be avoided. Okay. Right. And so, one of the great humbling scholars even Okay, he said, anything that causes harm, right, or oppression, or injustice, is not allowed by Islam, even if your understanding of how this led you to think it's allowed, right? Meaning our understanding of Hades is governed by the system of avoiding harm. So if your understanding of Hades
is leading to a harmful practice, you have to practice it. Maybe I'm not understanding of this properly. Right? I mean, so for example, the studies about female circumcision. What exactly was that? Do we know the details? How far did they go? was it done in a harmful way? In an uncomfortable way? Did they have a way of doing things 1400 years ago, in Arabia, that we don't even know about today? It was like completely different for what we call a female circumcision thing. To do the question you're going after us before taking our Hadees and just saying, Okay, this is what Muslims follow. Because, especially when it comes to hitc, there's a number of checks and balances that have
to put into place before you follow a decent Pip, you have to look at
Firstly, how did the Sahaba the first generation of Muslims understand that produce? Did they apply if they applied it? How do they apply? What is the context of the Hadees the level of authenticity of the Hadees
or the other Hadees is on the topic that contradicted right that may have came later on.
You have to look at other things different motherhouse may look at different things. So Mr. Bali could look at the the people of Medina follow the cities. Because if the people of Medina did not follow a certain Hadees Mr. Malik, sometimes we didn't follow it either. Yeah, because he, you know, this river bagina at his time, with the children of the of the first generation of Muslims, right, he grew up the parents were of the Prophet slowly some so he looked at their practice as Islam.
Even Abu hanifa would actually go further. And you Monica would say that, okay, if this Hadees only comes to us from like, one or two chain of narrators. And you know, didn't we not we'll have to follow it and pick, it needs to have a lot of freedom that it is possible in here. So we have all these different approaches. So you the idea of someone just taking Heidi's and saying this is what Muslims believe. That's not fair. That's not a fair approach to take. Because even with the very first generation of Islam, there is no how they follow studies, even with the Sahaba themselves. If somebody totally Sahabi a first generation Muslim, that the Prophet sallallahu Sallam said this, you
know, they would, they would look at it from different perspectives, they wouldn't just say, okay, he said it, so we're going to do it. I mean, even if he was alive, they would sometimes ask him, No, you said this. Are you saying he's part of Islam? Or are you giving us your opinion, they will actually ask the Prophet flagella like that. No, that is this an Islamic commando is just your personal opinion. So even Heidi's on this topic, for example.
Police on this topic may not even fall into the category of an Islamic law, because they are when it comes to work, the practices, a certain level of worldly practices, the proper solonius and have told us that you understand the world better than me. So I'm just giving you my view, but you don't have to take it. Right. So for example, when it comes things like he said, it's in the context of farming, or you have to take his opinion on farming because he's a farmer, but also in context of medication. So the many Hudis is saying that certain things are good for your health, certain things are cure, certain things are beneficial, medically, many of them are of the opinion, you don't have
to follow those headings, because the proper context is not talking from Revelation is talking from the medical knowledge available at this time. I see. Right? So you have to look at all of that. Before you just see okay, this is how you used to have Muslims believe it doesn't just work like that. Yeah, no, you're right. adding another layer to that is that you know, a lot of these
You know, like, well, I don't want to say, anti Islam, but even, you know, just the general Western voice of Western academics, even if they're not necessarily anti Islam is that they're taking the English translation of the cities as well. So even if you know, the Hadeeth was true, like, what exactly did he mean by a female circumcision? Exactly, yeah, it was about two definitions that the word could have meant something completely different 1400 years ago, compared to what's practice in North Africa today. Yeah, but, but I'll be honest, like, one of the challenges of the Muslim Ummah, is going to be taking this great knowledge from our scholars, and then disseminating that
information to the general public. Because right now, you know, me, let's be honest, you go on these anti FGM websites, and there's no quotes from any Islamic scholarship. And it might be a two way street, maybe they're like, you know, we don't want to listen to Islamic scholars. But, you know, that's something even just for our knowledge, you know, because, you know, like, the more we say, you know, oh, these people are just islamophobes, you know, don't even talk about this subject. Our youth, you know, they're gonna look at that and go, Well, what does Islam really say about that? Where can I get this information? I mean, you can literally go on all these different websites that
talk about, you know, FGM, and how it's practiced in Muslim countries, and, but to actually dig and find what our law are actually saying about it, that takes a little bit more of, you know, that takes a little bit more digging. I know that this is kind of a, you know, this is kind of a tangent, so want to get back on track. But I think it was important for us to understand a practical example. But let's talk about order.
So the standard definition, Western definition of culture, is, let me bring this up. I brought it up on Wikipedia,
beforehand. And I want to just see, like, how that compares to where was I
you know, the concept of orphan Islam, just to make sure that you know, we're not.
Okay, so the way the psychology community defines culture is learned patterns of perception, values and behaviors shared by a group of people that are dynamic, and heterogeneous. It's so it's an umbrella term, which encompasses the social behavior and norms, and in human societies, as well as the knowledge beliefs, arts, customs capabilities, and habits of the individuals in these groups. So would would have be similar to that? Or how would it be a little bit different?
Yeah, so all? Well, old, Fanelli wouldn't focus on beliefs or focus more on practices, right? Because in Islam be unified in our beliefs. This is the thing right? So this is the unifying factor was sent across the globe, you know, that was mentioned earlier, the six pillars of faith, that standard in every Muslim culture, that's like, there's no, there's no, there's not going to be different also, when it comes to that the police, okay, so what what the actual legal definition of orphans, the established practices, words, doing actions and non actions of people, right. So it's basically limited to what we say and what we do is what office.
So I think one of the big differences is that when Western academics talk about culture, they also talk about beliefs. Right? But for us beliefs fall into the realm of aqeedah, into the realm of theology, when we talking about all we talking about, but to put this into context, in Islam,
we have, you know, Islam is very compartmentalized like this. So we have to break it down and discuss the different compartments.
So we have our beliefs, and we have our laws, our Akita and our pick. The fifth is divided into a bar that and wahala acts of worship, and social dealings
applies to all social dealings, meaning, in Islam, social dealings are very much left up to cultural interpretation. What do we mean by social dealings, marital issues, family issues, business issues, methods of what you wear, what you eat? These kinds of things. So let me just give a definition and give a few examples so that the
average listener who may have never heard this term before knows what we're talking about, you know, that the word Earth means
in the context of the word also means that on those issues where Islam is silent, this is important for those issues where Islam is silent. D scholars can base their rulings on the local culture.
I do have issues with the Quran and the Hadith does not have any direct reference to the Quran. The Hadees doesn't say do this, or don't do this. in those areas. The scholars of a locality will base their ruling on the local culture
In this way, Islam adapts itself to every culture in every part of the world. It goes back to the question, is Islam mono cultural? Or is it? Is it a polarity of cultures? And the answer is Islam accommodates the good of every culture. Because Islam is meant to be practicing every place and every time. And so it accommodates the good of all cultures and just give you some examples of this. In in classical
in the Quran, Allah Subhana, Allah tells us about husband and wife relations will actually ruhuna will maruf treat your wife Well, according to your culture. This is one of the interpretations of this verse. And what the scholars have said is, the Quran doesn't define how much money you should give your wife. It doesn't define what kind of house you should get for her. It doesn't define how you talk to each other what terms you use for adjusting each other day to day interactions, you know, like how does a wife expect a husband to talk to her? How does a husband expect his wife to talk to him? What role is he going to play in in the household? Some of it is said in the Quran. But
most of it is not. Why? Because in this area, a lot out of his mercy has liftings open to cultural lifting over the culture. So you will find that as long as you are treating your wife, well, according to the people around you, you are considered a good husband in Islam. And that will be radically different in the USA, compared to Saudi Arabia compared to Pakistan compared to Malaysia compared to Turkey, each country will have a different standard in what's expected from the husband and wife in the treatment of each other in terms of the rights and even the very rights upon each other. So things like is the wife obligated to cook? This is less up to Earth. I mean, are you in a
culture where women are expected to cook or not that that's what's going to define it is the man expected to hire a domestic worker to clean the house twice a week or five times a week or not at all, there's no such concept. All of this is not mentioned in our books, all decisions left up to the culture. And so when it comes to the husband and wife relationship, a large portion of it is cultural. And so you will find it very different from that to them.
Another example of historically would be the way we dress. Right, and this is something that gets lost in our times. This is really an area where it gets lost in our times. The Quran and the Hadith are really the Hadees when it comes to how this this will get met. Right? Well, this controversial example of the generally gets a the man has to cover when his navel to his knees. Right? This is like standard naval two knees.
Why do we cover our upper bodies?
I mean, why are you doing a shirtless right now? modesty. It's so bizarre culture, I mean, you guys to walk around with the shirts uncovered, right? If you were living in India on a farm 700 years ago, we wouldn't even think about covering our bodies, we would say like, it's not my own right, I need to cover it. Because in that culture at that time, men never covered the upper bodies, and it was fine, because they always covered the private area in some cover. So just the fact that we cover upper bodies, is a is a show of how old has just become a part of us, you know, like, we wouldn't think about going out or doing a podcast with a bit with their chest. I mean, they end up going
viral for the wrong reasons. I remember when I first converted to Islam smile I was, I was I played a lot of tennis, you know, was actually the only sport I was good at. So, you know, I converted I, you know, people were telling me like, you know, you have to have your knees covered. And your your prayer is going to be invalid if you pray with your knees uncovered. So
I went and bought out these clam diggers that
that when you know, below the knees and everything, and everyone was calling me on the doll, because Rafi on the doll, as you know, is known for wearing was known for wearing the long shorts to cover the knees. So yeah, so I was able to adapt
that specific aspect of Islam to the culture. But this is actually actually a really important part of today is that when Islam comes to a new culture, what's expected is that it takes the good of their culture and absorbs it. And it rejects the bad of their culture. So it's not a matter of radical change. It's a matter of just letting go up to bat. So for example, if someone's in a culture where drinking alcohol is normal, when you convert to Islam, you have to give up their part of your culture. Right? But if someone's in a culture where you expect it to be romantic to your wife, well, when you convert to Islam, you still want to be romantic with your wife. Right? Believe
it or not, not all cultures have the concept of romance. It's actually a culturally specific thing. I mean, because we live in the Age of Hollywood, we think it's all over the
But it's actually a very culturally specific thing. In some cultures, the concept of romance doesn't exist at all, you know, husband wife relationship, a very serious
thing. So, you know, sometimes we don't realize this, that when it comes to culture, all Islam asks you to give up, it's those aspects of your culture that are either wrong or harmful. And of course, anything that harmful is, by default, either close to her or her. Right. So that's really what culture comes into play. Okay, now, I think
part of the reason why you know, this is such an,
a not very well known subject is that even in English translations of the Quran, like I looked up the ayat, when you talked about
one the other one is sort of our off i a 199, where the English translation is hold to forgiveness command, what is right, but turn away from the ignorant. There is no mention of culture
in that ayah. So
what you're saying is the root word in order.
That, you know, the scholars have said that this actually applies to the cause. So it's a lot more deep. It's much. Usually, what we're looking at here is the difference between translation and Tafseer? Yeah, the difference between a translation interpretation and Tafseer. Even at the top of the text here does anything about cultural or? Well, it depends which steps to revise, unfortunately, the ones that mentioned it all in Arabic, right, actually, for those of you who have on the shelf behind me, I guarantee you at least two of those may talk about when it comes to those buses. Yeah, I think one of the challenges we'll be having, see, cuz you said this, what this didn't
come up until recently.
One of the challenges will be from from Islamic scholarship is disseminating this information to the general public. And if it's only there, it's a big challenge. It's a big challenge. It's a challenge. I'm getting a daily basis in my life, because people just don't understand. Let me explain historically, why he didn't come up with a reason, right? Because for the bulk of human history, people lived in monocultural areas, and they were cut off from the rest of the world. So if you grew up in India 300 years ago, by default, that's the only culture you know. Yeah. Everybody practices Islam the same way you do. Right. And the only people who are aware of cultural
differences are those who actually traveled like even but only actually IBM people like that. And it was by foot, it was on foot. It wasn't like you can take years for the business to reach the rest of your village. Hold on this guy saw a country way, slumps practice differently from us, right. But what happens in the 20th and 21st century is number one, Muslims are now all over the globe. In new cultures, for the first time in centuries, we are in new cultures, South Africa, Canada, USA, these are completely new cultures for Muslims to be in. Number two, is we interacted with each other. I mean, until 20 years ago, this kind of conversation between you and me across the globe wasn't
possible, and except maybe by email by mail or something, right. So the idea of culture, the actions like this on such a global scale, were impossible to like, when I was growing up, we only knew Indian Islam. We didn't even know Arab Islam. Forget any other culture.
For us, Arab Islam was like a photo contradict with why these guys are doing this, why they thinks a lot differently, why, you know, the treating the wives like that, and we couldn't grasp the differences between their culture and our because Indian Islam is all we knew. And the internet, global travel, migration. And also the get that in the past few years, there has been a surge in conversion. There have been a lot of people from a lot of different backgrounds were converted to Islam, and all these things put together, plus the fact that for the first time ever, we are living in multicultural societies. This may be historically Baghdad or Andalusia, multicultural, but most
lands were not like most lands where, you know, you have to even today, if you go to Turkey or Malaysia today, they have like one culture for the whole country. And everyone's culture is the same. But if you come to South Africa, every neighborhood has a different culture. Wow. And very similar, right. So because it's Africa, we have like,
more than 10 different races, more than 20 different languages. We have a lot of different economic classes. And so there are cultural, they literally cultural differences from one neighborhood to the next. And so this creates a whole lot of new challenges that nobody thought about before. So 100 years ago, it was easy to memorize a book of patois of opinions that came out from India to just follow it, because it still apply to you. But now 100 years later, someone's in South Africa so much in Canada. They're trying to apply the Indian book about our written 300 years ago. And it's not making sense, because those books have things like women shouldn't go to school. You know, the
things have the books have things like you have to dress in Indian attire. No. reading these things and you're like, Okay, how am I supposed to do all this in Canada? how it goes
This is Africa. You're not, you're the man of that time made the rules for their time based on the issues of their time. They didn't think somebody 200 years later is going to be trying to apply it in a foreign land. That wasn't the intention. Right? their opinions. As strange as they seem to us were valid for their time in place. Right, it was valid for the for the situation they were in at that time in that place. They had reasons for what they said. And it makes sense in real life in that type of place. But now I take it 100 years later and apply. It's bizarre. It's really bizarre. Okay, so um, let's even still though, you know, from what I've read in Islamic history, we still see
a vignettes and stories of the Sahaba. And the first three generations
go into a new land.
And they did you know, correct me if I'm wrong, but they did a few of these things. One is that whenever they went to a new land, the Muslims who came from that land, we're the clinic leading the charge of Dawa, because they knew their society, they knew their language and things like that. So that's one thing. Another thing is that they adapted to the culture when they move there. So what evidence is, can we see not just from the Koran, but also the Sierra, the stories of the first three generations of Muslims
that we can draw from as evidence that this is the best way forward for the Muslim community in the 21st century?
Okay, so to me, the best example of this was the Muslims, conquest of Syria, right or a sham. So Sylvia, today is not what a sham was a sham was actually what's Lebanon, Palestine city, all these lands put together with one country historically, up until World War One. So when the Sahaba, the first generation of Muslims conquered Syria, and migrated here, a lot of cultural changes took place to understand
Silvia before that was a Byzantine country. Right, it was ruled by the by the Byzantine Roman Empire, it was Arabic, but these were Byzantine Christian Arabs. So the culture was very different from that of the of the of Makkah and Medina, which were more tribal. more simple, right? So you see a big difference in this in that, for example, with over the hottub travels from Medina, to to Serbia to visit the Sahaba, he made a commitment, he said, everybody's changed. This is his command, everybody's changed. Like, you're dressing differently, you're loving differently, I can't recognize it can't recognize the way people are living. And it is a couple of stories about this. With the one
that really, for me hits home. Yeah, I really tried to point home is when he acquired appointed, Alia, radiallahu, as the governor of Syria. And while we began to live like a king, like, you know, he eventually became the first king of the Raya dynasty. But in the time of over as the ruler of Syria, he's starting to look like a king, and over himself is living a very simple lifestyle. You know, it's a big contrast that the Hollywood is living a simple lifestyle in the governor's living like a king. So Omar asked him, you know, why are you living like this? You know, and and he gave a very profound answer. He said, that the people of Syria are accustomed to being ruled by the
presidency of kings, when they when they see a ruler who dresses like this, who lives like this, who has this lifestyle, they respected, they look up to him, because this is the culture. Right? And so he, he understood the culture of his people, he adapted to the culture, he began to live like them, and let it go. He didn't say anything. He didn't, he didn't technically approve of it. But he didn't dismiss him from the post or correct, either. So it was like a silent approval.
And while we are ends up becoming so powerful in Serbia, that you lose it for 40 years, and his family rules it over 100 years, right? How did he establish that level of loyalty and that level of power in a foreign land? Because remember, he is from a tribe from Makkah. And you find that all of cilia, were loyal to him, even during the civil war against the Sahaba?
How did he establish that level of loyalty? And a lot of people don't like to talk about this aspect of history? Because it's a very touchy and, and and, you know, emotions, topic about the Civil War, but they are, they are lessons we can draw from it. And this is one of the lessons that I've tried to figure out how did he get the loyalty of people? Because this is a foreign land, right? The way he got the loyalty was adapting to the culture, that he understood the culture of study and he began to live like a Serbian he began to just like one, live in a house like this living, how they expect the leaders to live, treat them the way they expected leaders to treat them. And he also established
justice. Obviously, you can't be you can't have a lawyer as a leader. You can't have lawyers without justice. Right. But the fact is he he assimilated into the culture. And because he assimilated the culture, that land became loyal to him. And he wasn't the only one who did this. Right. All
With the Sahaba that lived in Syria, Omar bin Al Khattab commented that they are dressing very differently from how they used to dress.
So this shows that all of them had adapted to the culture, they began to dress like silly and stuff like mannequins. Okay, so let's focus here. Yeah. Okay, no, no, that that makes a lot of sense. You know, and that's definitely, you know, I guess the head he assessed, you know, what the people would,
you know, find attractive or unattractive in terms of, you know, finding Islam is compatible with their culture. But if we look at it from another angle, because now we're dealing with the 21st century, we have moss nowadays, in 2020, where it's smack dab in the middle of an all most town that's 90%, white, and 5%, black. And all of the congregants were south asian clothing, and all their lectures are overdue. And it's a boarding school. So it's just a complete completely different culture and a totally different town. And you we can tell them, you know, like, you know, this isn't the way to do things, you should adapt to the culture all we want, but at the end of the day,
they're not going to change, even if the moms want to, because, you know, the, the parents who paid for their kids to go to these boarding schools, you know, they're expecting, you know, to be immersed in the, in the South Asian culture. So, the other, you know, that's option A is to assimilate into the local culture. But the other option that, you know, we're advocating for, which is probably a lot more feasible is that, okay, you're here, you can keep your culture, don't change anything about yourself, keep the dress, keep everything. But for those who, you know, actually convert to the faith, to help, you know, you should help them keep everything in their culture,
which is difficult to do. Because even if you're just, you know, even as a soul convert, you kind of have to do as the Romans do, and you're going to be eating biryani for avatar you're going to be some of them will dress the way that they dress. So I guess that's one of the challenges of living in the 21st century. So how do you? Do you think that that's a more feasible approach, for this type of dynamic?
Look, for my study of history, I actually see things going very differently, okay, what I see is going to happen is that by the third or fourth generation of these immigrants, they are these going to be a culture, a culture clash, or culture war between parent and child, to see what's going to happen, the father is going to say, you need to dress in South Asia, Southeast Asian clothing, and the sons gonna say that's not my culture.
And then this is going to take place. And what's going to happen is that when that child grows up, he's going to be raising his children upon Western culture. Right, and then this this is this is naturally the direction that must be hidden, because now the majority of elders are now third generation, fourth generation born Americans, right? So the way I look at it is trying to force a culture change never works. Historically, culture changes happen gradually, and they happen intergenerationally. So you will have the first generation who are all about preserving the backroom culture.
And they're going to do that, and there's nothing you can do to talk about it. That is just not possible. I think. I've never seen it work. Even Yes, Africa, someone comes from another country, they are going to do everything possible to preserve whatever link they have Banco but guess what? I'm first generation is Africa. I don't know my native language. My mother doesn't know my native language. My grandparents were the last one to speak it. The third generation is allowed to speak it. We are English speaking this, this is our mother tongue. Our doubt. This is our, this is our primary language. Because we are first generation this country, English is the only language we
speak. The same is going to happen in America by the fourth generation as well. So the the cultural change on their side is going to come gradually. But it's not going to come easily because it will be a generation, which is going to be a culture class, a cultural one. I think that's what's happening at the very moment in America, because you are seeing this now, with the younger generation asking their parents, but why can't they celebrate birthdays? No, but why can't we have in the bursaries? This is just our culture, why I've got to dress like that. That's not our culture. So these questions are coming up. And what that means is that this culture clash for the immigrants
is happening now. So fast forward to 2030 or 2040, the master is going to look at it.
Because now that generation are going to be the adults, they're going to be the board of directors, they're going to be in charge of the school, they're going to be the one paying the fees. And they're going to want things would be according to their culture, which is no longer the immigrant culture. It's not the culture they grew up in. Right, this is this is the gradual, natural change. The other side of it is okay in the meanwhile, over the next
The for the next 20 years why this is happening?
how then do we help people who convert to Islam I feel out of place? Because Because this happens in Africa as well.
It happens a lot in South Africa, because again, we have so many different cultures. Yeah, let's pick up like a practical example like the Zulu, like, are the whole set like there? What would you see as an ideal way forward and giving us, you know, giving Islam to them and helping the converts establish their communities there?
What would the local tribes like to do during the classes?
Initially, about 20 years ago, there was a lot of a lot of resistance to the dour, because it was seen as Indians preaching an Indian religion,
to Africans, right. That's what it was perceived that and, you know, again, there was this, literally, there was this idea that if someone converted to Islam, they had to start wearing Southeast Asian dress, they had to learn Urdu. They had to start eating spicy food. So it was converting cultures. Yeah, that's changed. It has changed gradually over the past 20 years. Why does change it has changed for, I would say about three or four reasons. Number one, I think our generation are a lot more knowledgeable about these things than 20 years ago. Number two, a lot. A lot of people from the culture who converted ended up becoming the ones who spread the message in
their cultures, right? It's like, like one of my very close friends. He converted to Islam when he was nine years old. So he's from a Zulu tribe and his father's a priest, and he converted to Islam and he became a scholar of Islam. And so he's the one doing Dawa, to the Sooners? I don't because it would be like a, you know, there's always a value, it is always a cultural value in the doubt. I mean, I wouldn't be the situation pops up if someone asked me about Islamophobia. But I don't go out there trying to force my my opinions upon them. The guy out there doing it are the Zulu converted into coarser converts. And then also what he did is they established their own budgets, they own
mosques in these areas. So in the area where there are no Indians, you will find a mosque run by Zulu imams where the lectures are in Zulu, whereas Zulu translations of the Quran, with with all of this has taken place. And so what we see now is an influx of converts compared to 20 years ago, to such an extent that the local Masjid I go to 20 years ago, 90% of the congregation was Indian. Now, I would say about 50%.
Right? It's a mixture of all different races, like we walk in there, Turkey speed people person has a lot of immigrants to the country. So there's people there from Turkey and Egypt in Malawi. But there's also a lot of locals, there's a there's whites who lose their courses is everybody in one basket. And because the crowd is diversifying, the lecture is not included anymore. The lectures are in English a couple of times, let us be in Zulu, because you don't have to cater to a variety of different people. So this is what I mean by gradual change. And this is what happened is that that first generation that converted they face a lot of difficulties. I know what I mean, if you listen
to their stories, they face a lot of difficulties. People try to Indian eyes, their mother tried to get them to dress like Indians and change their names and change their surnames. And all of this was going on. And they resisted that. And he just converted to Islam, and they learned Islam. So when they became scholars of Islam, and the other ones now doing Dawa, to their communities. And this is now when you're beginning to see the influx of conversions. Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, it's kind of taking a homegrown approach to building a convert community from a particular culture from the ground up. And that's what we saw such a huge mass conversion to Islam among the African Americans.
In the United States, it was the largest mass conversion to Islam in the last couple 100 years, really.
But,
you know, over time, the, I don't wanna get into details, but they had trouble keeping their culture when it was kind of like this. I'm not gonna name names, but kind of a foreign
dogma that came in with an influx of of immigration, and that caused a lot of friction between the families. So I know exactly what you're talking. Yeah, we're not gonna name names. Anyway, um, so, so again, it you know, and that, that seems like a much more natural approach. And I think, you know, what, we've seen a lot of cosmopolitan cities like Toronto, is that, you know, a lot of these mosques
are run by a single a single ethnicity. Um, you know, you have mosques that are run by Pakistanis, you have mosques that are run by Somalis. You have mosques that are run by Arabs even have their own organizations like even in mid level cities in Canada. You know, you have Somalis have their own organizations. Syrians have their own organizations, but they still have the umbrella
mosque in those cities where all the congregants go in. And it's not like these, quote unquote ethnic masjids disallow any Muslims from coming in. So when I first converted, you know, a lot, we were totally against this idea, like, oh, why do we have these cultural mosques that just cater to one ethnicity, where it's in one language. But now that I'm a little bit older, I'm a little bit wiser, I really see the utility in that because, you know, we're being bombarded by this global monoculture. And people just want to hang on to something of their culture, that's not modifiable. And, you know, my opinion of, you know, the cultural quote, unquote, cultural mosques have just
really warmed in the last couple of years. Because, you know, for converts, we're trying to allay the fears of our family and community members. And a lot of them are terrified of going to a mosque, even if they have a neutral or positive image of Islam. And these cultural communities, you know, like you said, the mosque from by Zulus
is, I think, an important way to bridge that gap that a lot of lot of Muslims don't realize. Did you have anything to add to that? or? Yeah, know that you actually had the same same evolution of thought, as you have this topic that a few years ago, someone told me in Canada, so the attacks, you're talking about the expense of Canada, like this book, very angry about expensive candidates will be new in Canada, you get out of mosques, you get Indian Wars, you get Pakistani boss, why is there all this racism in Canada, I was thinking about when I was talking to someone about a person, that person got me thinking it's not racism? No, it's about comfort. That's literally what it is.
It's about making yourself comfortable that think about it, a group of Indian families move to a foreign land, the skin, they need to interact with each other, they need to be there for each other, they need to be able to help each other assimilate into this new land. And so the only way they can think of doing so is having a base, a place where they can meet up and we can talk and we they can be with each other because they could be working in companies where they never see each other one guy is in an ITP, somewhere else, a doctor somewhere else, the taxi driver, the machine is only placed with a meet up say, Oh, I'm not the only one going through the struggle of being an immigrant
and you then you have somebody else go into the same thing. You know, and you there is a fear of losing one's culture because especially for for Muslims, there is a lot of fear of Western culture. Yeah. Because when we think of Western culture, especially become more more conservative land, you thinking about alcohol, you think about fornication, you think about your children getting caught up in all of this. And there is this fear that if we lose our culture, you know, kids are going to do all of this. That's the fear that's in their mind, you have to understand where they're coming from. If we lose our culture, our kids are going to import all of this. No. And that's what the continent
of Africa comes into Hold on, okay, we in a new land, this applied, meaning this, analyze the culture around us, take the good, and leave the band. So we begin to fit in without compromising our fate. That's what needs to happen now with this generation. And that's going to happen to education. It's the role of the of the LMR to step in and let people know Okay, listen, we are here. This is the new culture we are living in, we need to put into the culture without compromising our fate. This is what we can do. This is what we can't do. Right? So maybe we can celebrate anniversaries, we can celebrate Christmas, you know, things like that they have to have the discussion about giving
back to us by dedicating examples before someone attacks me the comment cites examples of the conversations people are going to have.
The idea here is that the older man don't have to step up. And I've never seen that post a few days ago on Twitter, that older mob, our generation can't afford to be just memorizes of books. We have to be deep thinkers, because we are facing new problems and new issues that our our teachers didn't face and get teachers in the face. Right? This is a whole new world. There's no end because of your approach. Yeah, no, no. And, you know, the, the statement that came out a couple of weeks ago, that sort of drove home this whole fear of Western culture was macarons statements about a French, French Islam. So in his eyes, you know, a French Islam is one that's, that's that secularized that conforms
to, you know, the the French secular concept. But when I thought in my head French, when I think of French Islam, though, I think of French people who've converted to Islam, forming sub communities, and keeping everything about themselves, but just not doing the things that are wrong. And you know, we have to get past this because like you said, it's a very controversial subject. And people are going people in the Muslim community, some of them are going to balk at this idea because they're thinking that Okay, we're adapting to a harem culture. And this didn't just happen with you know, the recent Muslim communities, but this also happened with Europeans. You know, when we
You know, when our ancestors, you know, moved into, into into Western lands into the diaspora. And then, you know, with the global American monoculture, you know, we lost all of our cultural aspects. So, you know, the Italian culture died out, the Portuguese culture died out, for the most part, the Italian, Italian culture, the French culture, the British culture, it all got subsumed into this, you know, globalist stick white monoculture that sort of encompass like, you know, Western imperialism. So it's, it's totally understandable why the Muslim community would balk
at such an idea. But really, you know, what we're talking about is just dropping the bad aspects of the culture. Yeah, again, you know, we talk about this most people that the issue that they actually have is that they don't know Firstly, what we're talking about, and the idea and our ideas. So, for example, the word American Islam, when I say American Islam, I may be thinking one thing, the person listening will be thinking something completely different. So I'm thinking of a Muslim American, practicing Islam. Right? And they think, oh, he's talking about a Muslim who is lgtb. And he's drinking alcohol and fornicating. That's not what I'm talking about. That's not what I'm thinking
about. Not even. That's not even a consideration. Right. But because I think one of the issue is, number one, we don't explain ourselves well enough, which is why we need to have long discussions is why tweets don't work. Right? This is why five minute clips don't work. You need long, detailed discussions like this. That's why I prefer to teach a six weeks course, rather than make a tweet about this topic, because we need to explain ourselves properly. And number two, we have to divide the sciences in our time.
The average Muslim who moved to this lens has no clue about this, what they grew up with in their culture back home. They don't know the difference between what's culture and what they don't write, if someone is moving, just say someone's family has been in it. I'm leaving India, as example. Because that's what my ancestors come from now for any other reason. So but so just say that my ancestors were in India as Muslim for 400 or 500 years. And so they growing up in their culture and growing up with Islam. And the average person doesn't know the difference between what's Indian culture and what Islam. So when they come to South Africa, they are preaching all of that as Islam.
So for example, they asked two segments of my community in South Africa, a large segment, who believe that dressing in Indian clothing is Islamic dressing, they call it Islamic dressing. And they call this farcical dressing, dressing like open sinner. Right? Because in their mind, Indian dressing is Islamic. And Western dressing is a way of the kuffaar. Right? This is the actual idea they have in mind for him because they have not studied the concept of work. And so they are unable to differentiate between their religion and their culture. Right. So they think, for example, when you get married, a bendy party is part of Islam. The main part is Indian culture is completely
permissible Indian culture. Yeah, but it's not part of Islam. I mean, if somebody comes to Africa, and you say, you're not having many parties anymore, we're going to have something else instead. Right? That's still perfectly fine. Because this is a cultural area where Islam has no law, except don't do something Haram, that's the only lawyer, I go back to the parties or things like that, really something around vacancies. But whatever else you have leading up to the wedding, as long as it's not Haram, it's fine. Whether it's event the party, or whatever it is, your culture dictates to you. The problem is that people move to these lands, they bring their religion and their culture.
And they don't know the difference between what's religion and culture. And so when somebody in that land converts to Islam, they enforce the culture on that person in the name of Islam. So what happens is Africa is someone who is Zulu converts to Islam, and people tell them you've got to start dressing in Southeast Asian dressing, why? Because that's Islamic dress, you have to start wearing Islamic dressing. That's not Islamic dressing. That's cultural dressing, right? And so this pushes people away, I've actually met many people who, you know, they actually put them off taking the Shahada, they put them off converting to Islam, the idea that they have to let go of their culture
and start basically living like Indians.
Right? So so it's it's a big challenge, and we don't have a solution for it yet. Because even Yes, Africa, there is no solution. Yet, it's still a huge resistance from a large portion of society, who think that people like me are liberals and modernists trying to change the religion or in reality, we just trying to apply to sort of pick and keep the religion as Allah intended it to be. But because they don't understand that, you know, we get death is titled to be liberals and what it is and Westerners and whatever else.
Yeah, so it's going to be a huge challenge going forward. I don't here in Canada, we a couple years ago, we had a show called Little Mosque on the Prairie. And it was about a Muslim entity and a small I don't know if you've seen it before. How did you get it? My kids watch the show so many times. I think I memorized
Yeah, so I, they were trying to, you know, adapt to you know, living in a small town in Saskatchewan. And I remember the one episode where there, there was a big kerfuffle over, you know, should we have a barrier between the men's and the women's section in the mosque. And at the end of the episode, they, what they did was, they, they brought up hockey boards, they had like old hockey boards, and they had they had that end up being the partition, so, at least a woman could see what was going on. So, a one party was, you know, kind of like, interleaved with this whole,
you know, controversial discussion was like, this adaptation of Canadian culture into the, into the mosque itself.
You know, so you see these little, kind of converts sort of
trying to adapt their culture trying to bring in something from their culture into the, into the Muslim community, you know, like, and, you know, you know, this goes with cuisine, like, you know, I remember, you know, we have this big movement with Islam in Spanish, the Latino community, in the United States is converting, a lot of them are converting to Islam. And, you know, they're starting to have the Latino Mexican if tars with South Asians, very big South Asian, 60 very kindly because of how spicy it was,
you know, so, but they have a, you know, cultural connection with, with under Lucent and everything. So, for them, it's, it's been a, you know, a long go forward. But for, I guess, for us, it's even, it's much more controversial, because, you know, like, the history between the Muslim world and Europe.
So that's definitely one of the challenges. And, you know, you know, going forward, you know, we, I guess, what European descended conference, we kind of really did a disservice by sort of assimilating into another Muslim culture, because it just seems so off putting to our families. And, you know, one of our responsibilities is that the, you know, the people amongst our groups who don't like Muslims, as a matter of friends and family, you know, those are the ones that we have the most intimate relationship with, and it's kind of our responsibility to show them that Islam is adaptable to our culture. And I think by and large, we haven't been doing that because even though the Muslim
community has been telling us, you know, keep everything about yourself, you know, just,
you know, like, just drop the things that are wrong, that is difficult to do when you're the only white convert in the mosque. And, you know, you're marrying and marrying into another culture as well, you sort of lose that completely. So, going into that, you know, let's talk about a contract that's even a subject even a little bit more spicy, and that is the issue of Kufa.
Now, what is your understanding of and we can edit this out afterwards if you find it too controversial, but I want to see a conversation that needs to be had. Yeah, no. Do you think I'm explaining Okay, I guess even for me what it is, but guess what it is? Go ahead. Yeah, so, Kava is a concept found in all Muslims, but specifically in the hands of people who very strong concept and it translates to English as compatibility. And what it means is that when people get married, they should marry someone they are compatible with
on a variety of different levels economically, socially, culturally, they need to be completely compatible. So in the, in the old culture, so people will value from the same tribe, for example, right? We see this even amongst the Sahaba, or the generally the Qureshi. Sahaba would be magical Meloxicam. Right. And when inter tribal villages did take place, like with a mohawk, when a person from Makkah medicine from Medina, they were culture clashes that popped up.
They are examples of this now history. So what the 100 piece causes, specifically said is that when it comes to marriage, because we want to make sure a marriage works out long term.
If the people getting married are from the same culture, there's a bigger chance of it working out. So this is very politically incorrect to say in our times, yes, but it's actually what the books have big say.
Even though it's not Haram, okay, that the webmaster very carefully, it's not haram to marry to a different culture. It's not invalid to marry to a different culture and it could even work out. But what is recommended, what is Mr. hub is to marry someone from a similar background to you, because it is it is more chance of it working out. Right. So we see for example, today this happens. This happens if you make a very blunt example, very often nowadays when a brother who is African American, and he proposes to a girl from a DC family, as a father says no. The first, the first reaction that people have, you know, he's being a racist. He's being a racist. Well, for myself,
perspective, if he looks down upon African Americans, he has been racist. But if he has no problem with African Americans, but he is simply thinking that my daughter, I know her personality, I know her culture, I know her expectations from her husband, and it would be more likely to work out if she married someone from the same background. So then he's not being racist. He's just being realistic. And nowadays, you know, we have this knowing every topic you have to exchange in racism, we have two extremes. One extreme is being racist. The other extreme is calling everything racist. And I believe society is headed towards that extreme, where literally, everything is is is knocked
out as racism, right. I mean, I had a problem once where I corrected someone on something they were doing was wrong. And I got accused of racism, because I'm from a different race of that person. Like, for me, I didn't even cross my mind. Like, I'm just the guy who was doing something harami public, and I corrected him for that. But again, you can see everything he says racist, that's, that's, again, another extreme. In Islam, there is nothing wrong. In fact, it is recommended that you marry someone who you are economically, culturally, and in other ways as well compatible with as well. And specifically the 100 payment hub, the father has the right to reject the proposal from
someone from a different culture, or if he believes that person is not compatible with his daughter, right, they actually allow it's actually something that's recommended to be Muslim. And again, we don't say to several marriages are invalid. We're not saying they're wrong. We're not saying they're wrong. You're saying it's not going to work out by simply saying what is recommended? Right. The other side is I mean, in my, in my family alone, there are many cross cultural marriages. Right? It makes it a family if you do see us, majority of us are Indians, married Indians, but they are whites. They are Turkish, they are people from all different backgrounds as well. It's it's,
it's not something that we see is something haram again, people did jump to the wrong conclusion. So if you're saying that it's better to marry someone from the same background, you say, Oh, you think it's haram? Not we don't we don't see her. But it's perfectly acceptable not to be talking about what's most likely to work out. Yeah. Especially looking at what's most likely to work out. And what's most likely to work out is if two people have similar backgrounds, similar expectations, similar cultures, similar likes and dislikes,
similar economic levels, similar families, because remember, when you get married, you can be dealing with your in laws a lot. And if your in laws have radically different understanding of how family life is supposed to be, your life is going to be held on that, you know, propelling you to a different culture. Yeah, I have a lot of people who enter that, like, I have a sister, who, who lady who got married to a different culture. And she did it as an act of rebellion, saying that I'm against his racism. So I'm back into the culture. Right? So she has a reason. When she got back into her culture, her mother in law expected her to cook for the entire extended family, breakfast, lunch
and supper every day. This includes all seven of our brother in laws, and all of their families as well. And that's not the culture she was raising. No, right? And so she suddenly finds that, like, wow, what did I get myself into, I should have married within my culture.
Because you don't know these things until you value. Yeah. Now for someone from their culture, they know what they're getting into. They know, this is our culture, this is you know, what we expected to do. So this is the this is the point that we value across cultures. It's not just about the individual, it's for the families as well. And sometimes maybe the two individuals could make it work. But if the in laws have a cultural expectation of a son in law daughter in law, that is very different from what you were raised with that itself would take advantage. So these are all different things people have to look at not just what I'm in love with her, it is more things to
look at in depth. Yeah, I mean, you know, when I, a couple of years ago, I went to a um, this was back when I was single, I went to a you know, like one of these Muslim matrimonial, you know, interview things at the mosque. You know, because they had advertised for it. And, you know, you know, like, I ended up talking to a few sisters basically, all of them were were South Asian or DC. And every single one was like, my dad wants me to marry a Pakistani my dad wants me to marry a Pakistani my dad wants me to marry a Pakistani.
At the end of the at the end of the thing I got so upset that I went in the back I took a can of Pepsi and I whipped it at the wall, I was just so angry because it just like, you know, I don't how am I supposed to you know, like, it's just so quote unquote, racist, but, you know, what, they may have a very, it might not be that even the, the immediate family is is looking down upon this potential suitor, they might think, you know, looking at it, the extended family may be totally against it.
You know, like, there may be serious negative repercussions. So, you know, like, now, you know, we're a little bit older, a little bit wiser. Maybe it's
is a better option if converts from the same background form their own social networks, and build their sub community from the ground up their own third spaces, and then naturally what will happen is that, you know, like, you know, naturally people are just attracted to, you know, people who are familiar with them. But one of the challenges that we have, especially from conference from European backgrounds is that not all but some of our families in our very, can be very anti Islam or Islamophobic. Right. So, you know, they may push us away. And so, you know, they may kick us out of our house, they might oppress us, they might cut us out of the will.
Or just be even if they don't say anything about it, they just, you know, they just sort of like, we just kind of feel, they they look, we look really odd to them. So this makes it difficult for us to marry a convert from another, the same background, because, you know, in their eyes, now, it's like, You're marrying into two families that don't like Muslims. So, you know, like, it's, but it's, that's the thing, though, they they don't, you know, they they prefer to marry have us marry someone from the same background. But at the same time, they keep pushing, some of them keep pushing us away, my family had no problem with my conversion, Hamzah de la. But, you know, like, I've seen, you
know, in the past with these marriages that you know, the least the families, they get along well together, you know, they do their own things together. And, as an added bonus, if that convert, you know, is from the same cultural background, the both families then both in laws get to see firsthand that Islam can be specifically applied to that cultural context. And they can see firsthand without a single word, because a lot of them that just have Islam fatigue, they just don't want to hear about Islam anymore. So we're giving Dawa by our actions just by seeing, you know, how much their son or their son in law, how well they're treating their daughter, or how well their daughter in
law's treating their son, and how much how much their son or daughter has changed for the better. And, you know, like you said, it's not hard to marry someone from a different culture. And it's a very sensitive topic, because some of these marriages do work out. And some people who are watching this are from an intercultural marriage. Yeah, I guess even email and family do have any value just like that, you just simply saying that, you know, you have to look at all aspects. Again, I said different cultures and see different ways because exactly, but my experience, I realized that was African Indians, sometimes a Zulu, from your same city as you is actually more closer to you in
culture, they from India back home. Because we've been in South Africa for five generations, our culture is completely different from the Indians of India, is actually quite common with the Zulus of South Africa, right? So we'll actually be more culturally compatible with someone from that background compared to someone from from back home, because our cultures have kept changed and evolved over time. So again, we're not talking about it from a racial perspective, we're not saying you know, that races have to be separated from each other or anything like that. We simply say that when the two people have similar backgrounds get married is it is sometimes it's more likely to work
out. Again, the other week, it still worked out. But it's it's starting off with a bit of pudding, and it'd be easier for them because of marriage itself is an adjustment now is the adjustment of marriage plus the adjustment of adjustment of a new culture. It's double the adjustment and that something breaks a lot of people have asked why. And I hate using the word race. It's such a loaded term, and it's an English term. And, you know, it's such a, you know, visceral reaction that people get, you know, have to it, especially people in the Muslim term doesn't even make sense to me, I mean, historically never existed historically, Italians, French, English, German, they all separate
tribes. They don't consider white race, they literally separate from each other. Same with Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, were divided into different tribes, the members disabilities, the Gujarati wasn't engine as a race, this is a new term, it's a new idea. And it is quite problematic in our times. as a, as a side note, how would you interpret? How would you interpret the words? Sure, sure, but we'll come at you, like a nation, like in the UK, or and it's translated in English as nations and tribes.
So,
that encompasses the entire you know, entity, yeah. So, how can
you be looking at the time of the Prophet Slavic, and what that would have meant is that nations would have referred to people of different lands right. So, you have had the Arab with like a nation and the present teams with a good nation and the Persians were like a nation, but tried to be like, more specific to that. So you had the tribes of Makkah and the tribes of Medina in but you know, you had the oats and the hunter edge. And these tribes had different cultures or because I mean, he fought wars against each other, they, they they had very clear differences in the in the lifestyles. We see this with some of the cross cultural marriages that took place in the time of the Prophet
slavery, slavery culture, clashes did pop up. So
tribes repos, things like that different families separate we'll call it today because of the concept of tribe doesn't really exist in the modern world that much. Yeah. You know, but it's essentially families. That's what a tribe is. So like, my family is, or rather, my tribe is made up of four different family surnames, if you put those four together, that's one tribe, because you all go back to a common ancestor. But that that's really what tribes are referring to. It's difficult for people in the west to understand because that the concept of lineage literally doesn't exist in America and Canada. I mean, it's like, you don't have this idea. But in the Muslim world, it's still
there. I mean, Muslims can still trace that, you know, this is my father, his father, his father, all the way back to the Sahaba, or the prophets of Allah Islam or something like that they have this concept of lineage, and tribes. So that's why it's a difficult concept for us to understand in these countries, because we don't have. Okay, so to recap, I'm looking at the first three generations of Muslims. inter cultural marriage did occur, but it was the exception and not the rule. Would you say that it depends on the land and how different the cultures were. So what happened more often?
They were different intercultural marriages in every generation of Islam, you can see it because when Muslims moved to Malaysia with the move to Indonesia, when they moved to any of these lands, they were definitely intercultural marriages. But yeah, it wasn't. It wasn't everyone doing it either. So for example, I think one of the clearest examples of this was Islamic Spain, right, the Muslims ruled over Spain for 700 years. Yet, by the end of those 700 years, they were still divided into not Africans, Arabs and whites. They were still three segments of the Muslim community. It wasn't one big race showing. So we did you tried to still preserved there. The ancestors were still
preserved there. They still had these distinctions. And who are this is the Arab part of town. This is the white part of town. This is the African part of town, because people were still married within their own cultures. Yeah. Right. So it shows that although they began to live together, they were still barely from the same background. So the Arabs who moved to to Spain, some of them may have taken white wives. And we know this because the various delay to millions were ruled over Spain with blond hair and blue eyes, by the way, Oh, yes. So they were Arabs, but their mothers were probably white. Otherwise, how do they end up with white features? So the ruling families, I think
one thing I realized the ruling families definitely intermarried. And they probably did it for political reasons. Because if the king has a white from every tribe, in every race, every culture, the oldest tribes and cultures suddenly like family, and it's, you know, it's going to create robots. But for the average person, you will find that our family moved to Spain. And they stayed out of for 500 600 years before they got kicked out of Spain. Right.
And so it wasn't something that was the norm in every way. Rather, people still kept this issue of compatibility amongst them. And that's why we have the stories of intermarriage between the Sahaba because it wasn't the norm. In general, the Muslims of one tribe still valued within the same tribe. Right? Because, you know, they, again, sometimes you mentioned the examples are controversial because people get too emotional but when you study the books of history when they explain why the marriage of date even haritha and St. Vincent Joshua does not work out with each other up to just Louisiana Bergen County, which they know but one of the prophets cousins and Cena was married to
Zane even harder. And he never worked out and she ended up getting divorced and marrying the Prophet slowly sell them. Now the actual history books that explain why the marriage never worked out said because there was no Khufu there was no compatibility. She was over Qureshi noble tribe, he was from a different tribe that had very different culture, very different backgrounds. And they used to fight everyday over cultural differences. Right so this is actually mentioned in many of the explanations of why devaluation of a workout and again it's it's controversial dimension today because he's talking about the prophets adopted son and the prophets cousin, you know, to bring
these issues in may sound difficult, but it's there it's there as an example for us we see this also a bit more of a PG 13 example.
The Muslims of Medina
were a bit more conservative in terms of intimacy compared to the Muslims of Makkah. So in a market mentality, the Medina a woman and he wanted to try different styles there was uproar in the community
because they had a culture clash on how husband wife to integrate with each other. Ah, I see I can't I think I get what I'm saying. Yeah, no, no.
Yes, it was actually being devoted to settle the issue. Yeah, right. Because there was a clear culture clash, that in one culture, people get intimate in a certain way and other culture they will experimental with a no answer verse had
Be able to settle. It's saying that as long as certain parameters that are Cross has been wiped into whatever they want, right? Yeah, I mean, I remember my not my non Muslim friends were just like,
they thought that Muslims had to be intimate between a sheet.
Because, you know, that's what maybe that culture does exist in some parts of the Muslim world.
Yeah, I think it exists existed in Ireland at some point to it. Again, these are cultural things, this is not part of any religion. So what happens is, somebody sees the idea, assume it's part of their religion, but in cultures are different. We live in a maybe a more open culture, but even in Makkah, Medina itself is a cultural connection that should open things like this. Yeah. Well, I mean, go back to G rated examples. I mean, you know, like, even, and, you know, this is the kind of balance we have to keep, because we have to keep everything halau. But one perfect example I can give is that when we had an open house at the mosque, and we, we only had one table at the lobby,
with two brothers there. And the rules that, you know, the mom was very hard on this rule that no shaking hands between opposite genders. Right. So here, I'm thinking in my head, like, men and women are going to come in, you know, the brothers are going to shake the men's hands and the women are going to get a handshake. And in our culture, not getting a handshake, especially when there are gender differences comes off, it comes off as very, very, very, very, very offensive. So I thought about this. And I talked it over with my friends, and they were agreeing with me. So we're like, how about this, we set up one table for the brothers in the lobby. And next to that, another table for
two sisters. And that way, when the visitors come in, the brothers can shake the men's hands, and the women can shake the sisters hands. So at least they're both getting a handshake. So this way, we sort of, uh, you know, like, cleverly follow the Sunnah, but still adapted to the culture. But the, the people who are running the show were it took them so it was so hard for us to convince them that this needed to be like it took hours for them to, for us to finally do this. So that's some of the culture clashes that are going to happen. But I have a few questions from some of our, from some of our members, they wanted to ask specific questions about a specific and some of them may have
already been answered.
Let me see here, when a quote when a couple is marrying, but from two different cultural communities, which or customs or to be viewed as reining in the home, the husbands or the wife, the wife, or the country they're living in that is foreign to both of them.
So I really think this may depend from family to family, okay.
It'll be two, there'll be two main opinions here.
Generally, the husband's culture would dominate over the white culture. That's basically the way humanities work for the bulk of history. Right?
You know, because, again, islamically, it is not politically correct to say, but in Islam, the man is the head of the household.
So if the wife culture dominates, then she's the head of the household. Right? So islamically, generally, the men's culture will dominate Unless, you know, if the wife is from the culture of the land, then maybe her culture will be the one that he'd be expected to, to fit into. So for example, if a sister growing up in New York City marries a guy from overseas from another country who moves to New York, he would be expected to to assimilate into the New York culture, his wife shouldn't be expected to adapt to a culture that is foreign to New York, you know. So, again, it's going to depend from family to family. But in general,
the man's culture does dominate in house. That's why in Islam, a man's allowed to marry a Christian or Jewish woman, but a woman says Lochmaddy Christian, the Jewish man, because in general, the man's culture is going to kill the household. Like that's, that's why that aspect is justified on one side only. Okay, I see. Um, let's see here. Um, specifically, since culture does change over time, how exactly is allowed to change when the society has ruled on permissibility or harmlessness at one point, but progressing to a different societal norm? That is more relaxed? Let's see. Okay, this one's probably a little bit easier to answer. How much was it one?
Good is actually a question that comes up a lot in school. So the principle that the effect that applies here is that the change to law must happen or the change of law with the times cannot be denied. This is actually a principle in fact, the change of laws with the times cannot be denied. Now, what happens the Edit is controversial is that Intermediate Period, right. For example, let me give you an example.
Just say that it is the culture of Atlanta.
Let me try and make up like a really weird example. So nobody gets offended with something.
Okay, just it's a culture of land that men have to walk around BHS
right, so people can see how strong and put in place here. And three generations later, it's the culture of the land that men have to be assured. Right? What happens to the generation in between. So this is what actually happens in real life is that you will have a generation that says it is haram to do XYZ.
In between, you're gonna have a generation. We have the old ama, I think it's haram and other hot potato which offer and they're gonna fight with each other. And there's gonna be clashes and there'll be people on both sides, and then a generation later, everyone's saying is hella, okay, let me give you a real example of this. vigils. Right? When we were kids videoing was haraam.
Right? This camera was called the Iota john. Oh, yeah, vigil was Haram. When we started teaching Islam, half of us were saying, video is haram. The other half is saying video is haram. Today, barely anyone says it's Haram. It's like such a normal dominant part of every culture. The idea of you telling a young person today to use a video camera is haram. It's like, What are you talking about? How could it possibly be haram? Because the culture has changed so much over to do that actually get people to ask me this. You know, my uncle's always tell me when the kids used to tell us videos of her. But now we have Islamic TV channels. What happened? And tell them the culture
change? As
simple as that? Yeah, yeah. So you know, and sometimes, you know, their political motivations behind why some countries don't implement certain things because they think that it's being influenced from outside. I don't want to get into details because we don't want to make this. This video has already been controversial enough. So I think we'll put it to rest for now.
So I don't know, this is a very fruitful discussion. Brother Ismail.
Is there anything else you would like to add?
In terms of what we've covered so far? Or do you have any questions for me specifically, actually wanted to know that any other questions? They don't mind taking one or two more questions before we close out? Sure.
Because another couple where they will be can? Okay, um,
no, I think these these are kind of already been answered. I'm just trying to exhaust all information here. We've good where the hour and a half mark, but let's, let's just see Mmm
hmm. So, okay, I just want to give it a few like examples from real life.
You know, I remember one time we went to an IID fair, I was outside in Toronto, and it was run by a mosque that was basically run by the Somali community. And most, you know, like I say, 60 to 70% of the congregants for the IED prayer were, you know, Somali.
And just two blocks north of us was another mosque who had set aside another area that was mostly DC, and they had their own need prayer going at the same time. And the Somali mom was, you know, he got very upset. He's just like, you know, why aren't we you know, together and just having all we need prayer, you know, like, why aren't they telling you? Why aren't they coming over here and having read prayer, and in my head, you know, me and my friend, you know, who was a, you know, North African, we kind of were just like, I don't see, I think a better idea or a better option would just be See, how about this at the end of the EAD prayer, why don't we walk over to our DC brothers, and
wish them and eat Mubarak and you know, shake their hand and give them a hug? Just to show the Unity through diversity of the Muslim community? And, you know, I think the quintessential example we always use is that even the the tribe of Israel has Raj even they had their own battle flags. When they fought in the I'm not sure which battles that in which they had this but
can we infer from that specific example from the Sierra that the Allison the hostage, they had their own flags to identify that these
were both Muslim? We were both tribes are both united, you know, cemented is one block, but at the same time, you know, that shows our strength because, you know, all these tribes are basically a united. So I think there's a fear with some Muslims in that, you know, implementing this to converts and then them having their own quote unquote, sub community would be quote, unquote, division, but it really isn't division. It's sort of unity through diversity. How would you describe it as that smile? Yeah. So you know, they can see it takes me back to like, when I was younger, we had an issue that popped up in my community was some of the the
Zulu conquest to Islam is starting to sing Islamic songs in Zulu and Casa and these languages, and people were like you're imitating the kuffaar. And you're seeing like the carpals, you only supposed to sing like this and they will play some order to Bollywood saying something is already This is allowed because this is our, you know, this is our religion. And there was a huge uproar when someone got on stage at an event and sang an entire Islamic song in Zulu. Fast forward 20 years. It's normal. It's normal, every Islamic event that you're going to get songs in every local language about Islam, because no, people don't see it anymore as an issue. So, you know, these, these clashes
are going to happen in the beginning.
But it, you know, how did those Zulu songs grow? They formed their own communities, you know, they got together, they're like, hey, let's write a song for our people. So what the way they look at it is that their tribes love music. So we can get the message of Islam across to them in their language. They say the song about Islam in the language, right? And so this this develop the entire new sub genre of Zulu Islamic songs, I just say this exists in Okay, do you ever go whole genre of Zulu Islamic song de casa Islamic, so because this is a way of the message reaching people in those communities. And so it begins with guys from the same background get together, having coffee
together and coming up with ideas of getting Islam into their communities, and you're going to be able to think better than some of them outside? I wouldn't think about it, because I'm from a different background. Right. So the idea with a cross my mind, but when they together, they can come up with ways to spread Islam better amongst their people, because they know the community, they know that people love music. So Islamic songs was the way Yeah, right. So that's what that's one of the benefits of this. And again, it is, I will see the issue at all. I mean, in South Africa, it's normal, it's Africa, it's normal to see a group of Muslims hanging out, sometimes with the different
races, sometimes just with their race, or just their family, or just, nobody makes any of these things the issue because we all know each other as Muslim Brothers, we all greet each other, we all love each other. It's just a matter of hanging around people who share the same interests as you and the same goes if
you don't take it personally. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, I want to reach out to you know, like, the older born Muslim community and the aunties and uncles and, you know, because you said, there's this struggle in, you know, trying to have their kids keep their culture, you know, I don't think that's necessarily a, you know, a bad thing. I mean, you know, like, and I'm focusing a lot on the youth because, you know, like, in high school, there are only a few Muslims when I went to high school, but now it's, it's becoming commonplace that there's, you know, like, a Muslim minority in each High School in Canada. So, no, it, you know, they're trying to fit in, they're trying to adopt
Western values, and they're really, you know, really caught in the middle. And I don't know exactly what that experience is like. But I, honestly, I want, you know, Muslims from,
to keep that aspects of their of their background, whether that be cuisine, cuisine, or culture. And the way to get around. The idea of making it compatible to Western society is, you know, like, when people are interested in Islam, let the, let the converts, adapt their own culture and band together. And that in that way, if needed, yeah, it's just do what we did in South Africa. In South Africa, if you go to the average restaurant of Hala restaurant, you're going to find Turkish food, Indian food, Pakistani foods, African food, Italian food, Portuguese, food, Mexican food, all halaal all in one place. And we eat all those. When it comes to the to food, cuisine. We know we're not
about preserving one culture, we enjoy every culture, right? So in those areas, there's what's going to happen is going to be not a giving up of a culture, but an amalgamation of cultures. So for example, the way we cook in South Africa, some of our dishes have the regions in India, where they have been South African eyes, you know, they have been edited to fit in with this African cuisine. So that's what that's what's going to happen to you as well. So you're gonna have people who were making Indian food, but it might be an American twist to it, you know, maybe instead of a chicken tikka, they make a turkey tick or something like that. Yeah, yes.
Just adding those to us. And that's how the cultures come together naturally. So yeah, inshallah, you know, I agree with you. It's actually good that the parents are worried because it shows the concerned about the children, they don't want the child to adopt the negative aspects of the culture. But for my experience, in my community, appearance get too extreme with this, the kids have run off in the opposite direction, in my community feminism, and liberalism came from those families with appearance with strict on things that Islam is not strict about, you know, like, like how I see the Islamic dressing for him. You know, things like this, with the families are strict about things
that Islam is not strict about. The kids ran away in the opposite direction, and essentially that Islam Yeah, the more balanced way would be to find a
way forward, Okay, listen, my culture is different from my child's culture, let's find a way to help them see, take the good of their culture and leave the bad. One of the ways I do that is with the younger people, I explained to them. Why? Okay, so everyone around us fornicating Why is fornication prohibited in Islam? Well, this nowadays you have to discuss the whites, you can't just tell them, it's haram to get a girlfriend, you have to explain to them why you shouldn't look at the statistics of heartbreak and depression, and suicide and sexually transmitted diseases and all these things. Because they need to understand why. So it's good that the parents are concerned. But my worry is,
if you're going to be too strict on what Islam is not speak about, your kids are going to fly in the opposite direction. So it's important for the parents to get educated, and to know what they should stay strict on. Like, don't drink, don't take drugs don't want a kid, and where you can have some leeway. Like, okay, you want to have a birthday party? Let's see what we can do about that. Yeah, in my experience, I mean, like growing up, you know, in my non Muslim, mostly white society, you know, like, a Muslim who drinks and smokes, and does all these horrible things. You know, they don't look up to them, they see him as a sellout. Yeah, they look up to they, you know, they look up to Muslims
who, you know, stick to their values, you know, so, you know, it's better, you know, to, you know, like, be a, you know, like, a Muslim who sticks to their guns. And, you know, really, I mean, like, even the people who have the most negative, you know, opinion of Muslims in general, you know, you know, or have a lot of fears about Muslims, they still look up to, you know, Muslims who aren't drinking, and, or, you know, like, you know, sticking to their values, and being a traditional family, and things like that. I mean, like, you know, even someone from my work, you know, she has a lot of fears about Islam. But she is a huge fan of Muhammad Ali, you know, and, you know, like, and
that's why I think, you know, on the surface, if you if the fears that they want to fit in, but in the long run, even in the short run, you know, it's better to stick to your Islamic values. Yeah, I think across all cultures, one thing that's common is that people respect integrity,
that they respect someone who is has integrity towards their values, even the values are different. So, I mean, when a Muslim doesn't practice Islam, even people who are Islamophobic won't take what they say about Islam seriously.
That's because you can see that this guy doesn't represent what it's talking about. Right. Exactly. So you know, like, yeah, I mean, that that's the, that's the, that's the best thing that they could do. And, you know, like, you know, like, I know, a lot of people who used to not like Muslims, or have you had a lot of fears about Muslims. But, you know, once they interacted with them, either at work, or, you know, like, they got their oil change that the, you know, Muslim mechanic, you know, their, their opinion, you know, completely changed around. Because they saw that they were honest, they saw that they were hard working.
And, you know, like, they, they, they, you know, they looked up to them. So, you know, like, in, you know, I guess people, many more Muslims don't see the effects of that firsthand, because they don't really talk to talk to them or converse with them, but they do with me. And they tell me, you know, like, you know, I used to not like Muslims, but after, you know, like, I talked to them, like, you know, like, I changed my opinion about them.
Yeah. And that's really the importance of just, I always tell people, the best way to do that, why you should just love Islam. Because if you are a role model of the lifestyle of Rasulullah, sallAllahu, wasallam, then, you know, people are going to fall in love with that, and they want to have that with themselves as well. So that just people see Islam in us, and they will not be sample force people to see Islam in us, we ourselves need to be educated enough to know the difference between Islamic culture. Yeah, yeah. And I think that's the missing piece. I mean, these are all wonderful things. And I think that the Dawa efforts in the West have really concentrate on these
important aspects. I think that the, you know, the big missing piece is that Westerners think that they're going to find it empowered, unpalatable, or too huge of a jump
to convert to Islam publicly, and then their family is going to react negatively to it, they're going to lose a lot of friends and family and they're coming into another community where the culture is completely different.
So if there is that safety net that's there, you're going to see you know, like the status of Muslims not just for conference but for the whole Muslim community improve in the long run in the short run.
inshallah so again, for me, the one message always promote everyone and nothing I end up with this is gradual change is the best change. You know, don't don't try to force change on people. Don't try to change things overnight. If you do things
In a way, that's going to naturally move people in the right direction. When I was younger, I was very much hardcore about changing everything, you know, like, I would literally go online or go into public and help people do this. And don't do that to these people that are wrong. And it didn't change anything. All you did is maybe get me in trouble. Right? A lot of trouble. But
getting wiser I learned No, that's not the way it works. So for example, let me give you a practical example. When I was growing up, everyone thought that the South Asian dressing is Islamic dressing. And I myself, you should just like that, because people wouldn't take me seriously, if I didn't. In my 30s, I stopped dressing like that. Right? nothing had changed, except I had stopped dressing like that. Guess what happened when I stopped dressing like that? Over the past five years? More and more people have knowledge and teachers stop dressing like that. Oh, really? Yes. Yeah, it so I didn't change the people through fighting with them or arguing with them or picking on them. I just lead by
example, that people see that someone can have knowledge of Islam and not be just like it's from India, let people see that this is possible. And you can still be a practicing Muslim without dressing like them. They can just see it. And if people see it, over time, you'll get used to it. And when people get used to it, the culture changes. But I'm doing the same thing right now with the Juma football. So in South Africa, this idea that the Juma football has to be in Arabic, every mustard, it's in Arabic, except mine, where I have it in English.
Right? So this is again, a change, we I'm not telling anyone else what to do. I'm not telling other machines what to do. I'm not telling people they are wrong. I'm just doing it differently. And leading by example. And this way, we gradually change people in a way that's better. without fighting without arguing without alienating anyone. I think that's probably the best way forward. Well, one last example. And I can't I guess this is kind of too little too late. But I'm thinking about architecture. Because if you look at mosques in China, they look like, you know, pagodas, they look, they don't look like mosques. I mean, and some of them have just stayed that way for
centuries. islamically there, as far as I know, there is no regulations on what a mosque is supposed to look like the minarets, I believe was adapted in the ninth century
as an Islamic marker.
But, you know, what we see is that, you know, there's a whole, I think, part of the reason why, you know, like, there's such an antipathy toward Islam is that it's seen as a, you know,
culturally,
like, Yeah, exactly. invasion agent, a different type of buildings. So the Switzerland, you know, they had all these laws a couple of years ago, and, you know, trying to get rid of minarets, or you know, like limiting the number of minarets.
But really, there is no restrictions on that. And, you know, like a lot, if you look all across the Muslim world, a lot of these mosques are based on the local architecture. Yeah, man. In South Africa, we have there as well. So I'll tell you a personal story. Three months ago, at one of the newest monastery built in Durban, we had the open day for non Muslims, right. And the first lady to show up or she was a white lady, and she showed up and asked, though, you know, what, what attracted you to come and speak to us? And she told me the architecture. Hmm, I guess it she said that you're both such a stunningly beautiful building in this area. I had to come and see what it's about. And
really, the architecture of that mosque is absolutely stunning. Like, I myself was, like, wow, this is a beautiful piece of art. And so, you know, we have this with our most it's a way to express ourselves creatively. There is no one way of putting a mosque, but it's a place to pray. It can reflect any country can affect any artists. This is our art. So in South Africa, you will find every type of mosque they are mostly look traditional with a green dome in the middle of it. And the others, they literally just look like houses, like this is a square block with with a room inside it. The others are absolutely unique. Like, you know, you haven't seen a building like that before
because the artist who designed the architect design, he just use his imagination. And in this way, what people need to understand is a mastery is a mastery based on your intention that the person building it in january two devoted to the worship of Allah. There's nothing in the Quran it says it needs to be designed this way or that way. You have a specific Look, that's really an area where Allah has left us you have to creativity into as we wish, as long as it's hollow. Yep, yep, yep. No, no, I totally agree with you. I guess the challenge is trying to convince people that you know, it's that it doesn't have to look a certain way. And just add a practical example. You know, you
mentioned mosques and in South Africa and, and such. One practical example I'd like to give in Dearborn, Michigan, there was a mosque that was made out of an out of an old, abandoned
bowling alley Okay,
so I don't know I think they kept a couple of lanes to for people to play bowling but yeah, they just turned a bowling alley into a mosques. I just I guess it's more against that because every almost every mall and Airport has its own supply area like isn't it would you mind Juma prayers and everything? Like literally any mall you go to our airport you go to you will find Salah areas and people bring Juma people bring a congregation and it's just for Muslims. So it doesn't just shape like a mosque. It's just a room with with you know the prayer that's made out in place where we do it if you can find those, any YouTube videos, or if you can send me the videos of those Zulu
machines. We'd love to hear it. We can send you the YouTube video. There's a couple Icelandic converts who created an Icelandic Nasheed about the death of Abu lahab that I can send you interesting. Yeah. Sounds like it sounds like Bjork. It's it's tells him it's sung in the traditional Icelandic saga style. And I think it's a well known British convert to who had a British style machine that sounds like it's from like medieval England.
But no, I guess one that did that. But thank you so much for the discussion. Today, brother Ismail was very informative. And let's keep in touch. If you have any books to recommend that we can read, that laypeople can read about culture and
if they exist, or if there's something, you know, maybe get a bilingual person to translate some of the books that you referenced from Arabic, so I'm actually working on a book on this topic. The books I'm writing is called how it works. Okay. Well, is it like, oh, people need that? No, no, absolutely. And once you do get it published, we will definitely advertise for you. So you can we can help get the word out. But yeah, that's pretty much about it. Yeah, so I guess we ended here. Did you have any other closing comments to smile? Or don't say goodbye, my only closing comments would be to the listeners is, you know, when it comes to these kinds of discussions, that's number
one have pushed number one assume the best of each other. Now, don't think that the person having discussion is someone evil, or someone trying to change the religion or, again, we all Muslims who love Allah, and love is basically the message of Islam and we want to practice Islam. Just because we have different understandings of Islam doesn't mean that someone's a bad guy. Right? And so number one, let's have good thoughts about it. And number two, is educate ourselves. Right? You don't just make assumptions that Islam is the way I think it is. Read books, attend lectures, attend classes, build your knowledge, because you will find the more knowledge you have, the more you'll
realize that half of your assumptions about Islam were wrong. I'm saying this to born Muslims, right? Because I seen this firsthand. So many times people walk up to me and they say, what you're doing is haram. But when actually open the Quran, or the Hadith, or bukoba, pseudo fake and and explain to them what I'm doing. They realize that what
what I'm doing is fine. What they're saying is wrong. Right. So education is so important. And nowadays, there's no excuse not to educate yourself, because we have the internet, we have things available all over the world. So let us do this. Let's educate, let us know if you hear someone saying his opinion different from what we know to be what we were raised upon. Our first assumption shouldn't be that this person is a deviant, or this person is a liberal or this person's an extremist. Our first opinion should be that maybe he learned something I didn't let me contact the guy and you know, get more clarification. Before we jump to conclusions and messenger on Facebook
and make wanted our for our videos refuting each other. Let's actually have conversations. That's the best way forward. So yeah, you know, culture changes are going to happen. And we are in the middle of one at the moment. And I know a lot of people are very tense about it. But if you have these conversations, we can guide you in the right direction. If we don't have these conversations in the culture change is going to be more radical, and the Haram elements are going to come in and you're going to wish we had the conversation and guided you towards the Allah. So you can't you can't stop the change of culture, but you can guide you in the direction that is righteous. So let
us work on that instead. And with that, I think we can close up inshallah. sha Allah. I mean, I mean, I mean, thank you so much for having us for coming on today. Brother smile. It was a pleasure. Yeah, absolutely. hamdulillah we'll keep in contact. But yeah, and thank you so much. And we'll sign off from there a slum alikum warahmatu Allahi wa barakatu Alico cinema de la
okay.